Will everyone have access to some AV/anti-MAX weaponry?

[FIREk]

Hopefully some of our friendly neighborhood Devs will notice and be able to answer this... ;)

In PlanetSide, everyone could carry some sort of anti-armor weapon, be it empire-specific AV, a Decimator or Rocklet rifle. AP ammo was an option too. In PS2, I find it more and more likely that only the "Engineer" class will have access to a missile/rocket launcher.

Multiple ammo types will most likely not be available in PS2, as I think SOE wants to streamline gameplay, rather than keep it complicated.

If this is the case, one solution would be to make MAXes more susceptible to small arms fire. However, with all the disadvantages of using a MAX, I can't see why anyone would want to choose being slow, DPS-only and not really that much more resilient in a firefight.

I'm kind of hoping that all classes, except Infiltrator, MAX and Light Assault will be able to carry a secondary weapon, like a grenade or rocket launcher. Perhaps the Light Assault class will be able to have a secondary weapon too, at the expense of not being able to wear and use a jetpack.

The Engineer could have access to more potent AV weapons, but everyone should have access to something that lets them deal with armored threats, at the expense of having to swap weapons should any infantry pose a threat in the meantime.
I think not carrying what might be more useful at the time is downside enough and I hope the AV side of PS2 won't be one of the things inspired by the Battlefield series.

[Bags]

MCG + Decimator fo' life!

[WarChimp130]

I can't see them taking AV away from Infantry in favor of engineers. Doesn't really fit.

[Aractain]

Hopefully not. Role base teamwork. ROLE. :)

Also engineer seems more of a support role rather than a front combat role.

MAXs will be balanced some other way, trust in the Higby hair.

[Bags]

Hopefully not. Role base teamwork. ROLE. :)

Also engineer seems more of a support role rather than a front combat role.

MAXs will be balanced some other way, trust in the Higby hair.

I hate forcing teamwork via classes. I don't see why a heavy grunt can't carry his MCG and Deci.

[EASyEightyEight]

I imagine any true form of rocket launcher will be assault only. However, these heavy weapons guys will probably be completely reliant on medics and engineers for any real efficient healing/repairs. I'm sure there are med-kits, but those are really for emergencies, not for downtime healing.

Finally, I'm going to believe (if there is any) that SA will be fairly generic and be available to nearly every class. It's all still mostly anti-infantry weaponry, not as effective as close range HA, but won't be replacing an assault rifle either. Something akin to the rocklet rifle might be the proper counter against MAXes for none-heavy weapons guys.

I say heavy weaons guys because we don't know if heavy armor is actually restricted to all but one class. For all we know, medics and engineers can wear heavy armor too, just that the jump trooper can only wear light armor.

[Aractain]

I hate forcing teamwork via classes. I don't see why a heavy grunt can't carry his MCG and Deci.

I think I prefer it without it for other reasons (mainly if you NEED all the classes like a trinity system in an MMO).

But the other way has proven to be... difficult to balance. A slight tweak ends up in entire loadout changes. Creating hard walls between certain capabilitys you a) improve the indaviduals who do that (because they know you can't stack it) and b) can make more granular changes without impacting so many other parts of the game.

Thats my hope anyway.

[Bags]

I think I prefer it without it for other reasons (mainly if you NEED all the classes like a trinity system in an MMO).

But the other way has proven to be... difficult to balance. A slight tweak ends up in entire loadout changes. Creating hard walls between certain capabilitys you a) improve the indaviduals who do that (because they know you can't stack it) and b) can make more granular changes without impacting so many other parts of the game.

Thats my hope anyway.

It was only hard to balance because they kept giving us more certs. I like everyone being able to do something to a degree, yet a bitchin medic is very desirable.

[LZachariah]

I doubt that Anti-Armor weaponry will be common-pool, the same way that I don't think Sniper rifles will be common-pool. Anti-Armor weapons (like Sniper rifles) serve a very specific and very POWERFUL role. I assume that Anti-Armor will be among the trees in Heavy Assault (in fact, Sniping might be, as well).

Additionally, I don't think that Engineering will contain any Anti-Armor projectile weapons (such as Lancers, Decimators, etc). Combat Engineering is about tools and devices; it's only games like Battlefield that arbitrarily decided that engineers also wield gigantic bazookas. The Anti-Armor weapons that Combat Engineers will have will be anti-tank mines, explosives, etc.

[CutterJohn]

I would like one of the classes of grenade you can carry(or perhaps, and alternate fire mode for grenades) to be a sticky grenade that sticks to vehicles/maxs and does quite good damage but has little splash, and would be available to all.

There should also at the very least be a light AV weapon available to all infantry. Something like the RPG-7 or M-72.

But I also wouldn't mind a dedicated AV class of heavy soldier that gets proper AV and AA but a teeny gun.

[SKYeXile]

I doubt that Anti-Armor weaponry will be common-pool, the same way that I don't think Sniper rifles will be common-pool. Anti-Armor weapons (like Sniper rifles) serve a very specific and very POWERFUL role. I assume that Anti-Armor will be among the trees in Heavy Assault (in fact, Sniping might be, as well).

Additionally, I don't think that Engineering will contain any Anti-Armor projectile weapons (such as Lancers, Decimators, etc). Combat Engineering is about tools and devices; it's only games like Battlefield that arbitrarily decided that engineers also wield gigantic bazookas. The Anti-Armor weapons that Combat Engineers will have will be anti-tank mines, explosives, etc.

I think you will find there is common pool snipers rifles and AV? i presume you mean though you will have to specilise in a role/class to get access to said weapons though? Im still confused by their system myself, i even talked to a developer and it boggles my mind still.

Yea typically in Planetside the egnieer has always been about deployables and repairs...I dont think that would change just because DICE in their infinite wisdom made enginners carry AV.

[CutterJohn]

Yea typically in Planetside the egnieer has always been about deployables and repairs...I dont think that would change just because DICE in their infinite wisdom made enginners carry AV.

Dice just wanted to get rid of a few of the more frivolous or lesser played classes. Being an engineer was not all that special in BF2. Unless you had a vehicle to repair, you had little to do.

[Goku]

I actually fond the engineer in BF2 fun at times. I enjoyed running around the urban maps shotgunning guys to death (<3 the JH) and placing mines in front of vehicles just before they hit that spot. I would hope the engis in PS2 will do more though of course. Otherwise they would be worthless for indoor combat.

[CutterJohn]

Yeah, JH was lovely. :)

Still, engy with noone to repair was largely useless. I didn't mind that the just shifted engy to one who deals with vehicles, both killing them and repairing them.

[LZachariah]

I think you will find there is common pool snipers rifles and AV? i presume you mean though you will have to specilise in a role/class to get access to said weapons though? Im still confused by their system myself, i even talked to a developer and it boggles my mind still.

Yea typically in Planetside the egnieer has always been about deployables and repairs...I dont think that would change just because DICE in their infinite wisdom made enginners carry AV.

Yes, of course you're right; I misused the phrase "common pool," and it came out sounding like there would only be Vanu/Terran/NC Sniper Rifles and Anti-Armor weapons. Right, there are Common Pool sniper rifles and Anti-Armor weapons insofar as all three factions can wield them. I guess what I had meant to say is that I doubt there will be any Sniper Rifles or Anti-Armor weapons that are available to all classes. An Advanced Medic won't be able to wield a sniper rifle, an Infiltrator won't be able to wield a Lancer. If you want to wield a sniper rifle, I think you'll need to choose the "Sniper" class, and if you want to wield an Anti-Armor projectile weapon, you'll need to perhaps choose the Heavy Assault class.

Thanks for the inquiry; you're definitely right about what I meant to say.

~Zachariah

[Talek Krell]

I'm hoping they limit heavy AV to a few specific classes. My suspicion is that tanks will be more vulnerable to fire than the last game, and I don't want them becoming useless.

That said, there's no reason riflemen shouldn't have options. I assume the emp grenades will be back, and maybe there could be the sticky explosives someone mentioned a few replies back. A tank trying to run down infantry ought to be taking a risk.

[Aractain]

It was only hard to balance because they kept giving us more certs. I like everyone being able to do something to a degree, yet a bitchin medic is very desirable.

Well they way I understand it you will be able to easily have an AV class when you really need it but it wont be awesome at it.

What you can't do is add AV to all your other loadouts which imo is kewl (asuming they did it that way).

[Bags]

that's stupid imo. I like how ps1 handled it. until they added br40.

[Redshift]

If they don't let all troops med and rep in someway there's going to be no reason not to sit in a max, as a trooper will have the same disadvantage as a max but be squishier

[Coreldan]

I liked the idea where all infantry could have some sort of "molotovs from future", as in simple, yet extremely efficient at a thrown range against tanks.

Perhaps rocket launchers and the likes can require a certain class/more certing to AV-stuff, but I think tanks should be scared when driving around infantry like they would back in the day cos of all kinds of AV mines and the molotovs mentioned.

Not sure how does this really do against MAXs, though.

[Talek Krell]

I'm not sure whether I want infantry to be effective against maxes.

I remember eventually reaching the conclusion in PS1 that maxes weren't very good at infantry fights, because it seemed like there were always a bunch of people running around with decis/AV and HA. Which was odd, because that was supposed to be where they excelled I thought.

[Redshift]

I'm not sure whether I want infantry to be effective against maxes.

I remember eventually reaching the conclusion in PS1 that maxes weren't very good at infantry fights, because it seemed like there were always a bunch of people running around with decis/AV and HA. Which was odd, because that was supposed to be where they excelled I thought.

MAX's are infantry, and regardless if squishes couldn't kill MAX's what do you think the inside of bases would look like? 200 MAX's and not a REK in sight

[Sifer2]

Why should Engineers be the AV class? Because they are in Battlefield? Cause in that case Assault should be our medic as well. Since Assault is the medic in Battlefield 3 lol.

Personally the way i'm hoping it goes is all the Infantry class's have some kind of AV option. The heavy assault guys might get the rocket launchers. Snipers might get some anti-armor rounds. Infiltrators maybe get mines or detpacks. An if its done right choosing to take some AV in your loadout should come at the expense of something else useful.

[TRex]

I sincerely hope there will be access to av /anti-max , albeit you need to spec in it to reap the full benefits.

My concern is with the possible inclusion of headshots into the game. One thing for sure is that if there are headshots , I forsee tonnes of maxes in the game just to counter this one thing . One thing forses the other .

[exLupo]

200 MAX's and not a REK in sight

And nobody to res or repair the MAXes either. This leads to role inter-dependency. MAXes would be the central offense unit while small arms support units kept them up and provided role flexibility that MAX suis wouldn't allow. That was the point back in beta. MAXes were as scary as they were limited. They would eat your face off but once you were dead, they'd sit around not hacking or repairing. They required support units. Now they're paper tigers. Great dps but not that much more than HA and can be killed very easily with the standard loadout Deci.

I find it odd that a unit that can revive, hack and repair is also functionally stronger than a unit that is dedicated to offense against a single target. I blame cert proliferation and the mass tree combining that dev did right before launch.

One thing to remember about PS2, there will be no certs. Some items are unlocked but there won't be the cert wall to be used as a balancing foil. In time, the only thing stopping a rexo/ha/a.med/eng/a.hack from existing is spec based class barriers. When we get our first taste of how dev if doing loadout limits, we'll know if supersoldiers make it in or not.

And also who will and will not pre order. :)

edit: Re assaults vs engineers. What I'm expecting, and this is just conjecture, I imagine Rexo will have a heavy and light back slot. Light items (ma, bd, goo tube) for light or heavy and Heavy items (HA, AV) limited to the Heavy slot only. I'm thinking that swapping gear out of your inventory won't even be possible and swapping gear off of corpses will be a straight slot swap.

[Redshift]

That was the point back in beta. MAXes were as scary as they were limited. They would eat your face off but once you were dead, they'd sit around not hacking or repairing.

MAXs were broke in beta, everyone knows it and wouldn't go back to it. A pounder could hold a doorway forever on its own

[exLupo]

MAXs were broke in beta, everyone knows it and wouldn't go back to it. A pounder could hold a doorway forever on its own

Strawman. This has nothing to do with marginalizing all MAX units.

[Redshift]

Strawman. This has nothing to do with marginalizing all MAX units.

It's not strawman, if you make MAX's all powerful killing machines people will sit in them, just like they did with BFR's, people sit in them now and they're not exactly overpowered atm

[FriendlyFire]

PS1 relies too heavily on the Deci. By offering so many AV/anti-MAX weapons they cheapened the MAX role. MAXs should be the ultimate, anti-infantry, choke point attack/defend unit. They are not self sufficient and should be allowed advantages over normal infantry load outs.

[Redshift]

PS1 relies too heavily on the Deci. By offering so many AV/anti-MAX weapons they cheapened the MAX role. MAXs should be the ultimate, anti-infantry, choke point attack/defend unit. They are not self sufficient and should be allowed advantages over normal infantry load outs.

but that will that not just make infantry combat inside slow and dull, they're trying to speed it up

[exLupo]

It's not strawman

Actually, yes. That was a textbook strawman. You used the argument "One facet of one MAX was overpowered and bad design" to attack my argument of "All MAXes are marginalized by the over-availability of man-portable AV". You used a only vaguely related argument that you could knock down easily, the strawman, to attempt to discredit my statement.

if you make MAX's all powerful killing machines people will sit in them, just like they did with BFR's, people sit in them now and they're not exactly overpowered atm

No, you are correct. Neither are overpowered. Both are woefully underpowered. BFRs are a sad byproduct of a neat idea gone horribly awry and should be removed altogether. MAXes are a sad byproduct of a neat idea stomped on by cert proliferation.

The MAX was always intended to be the alpha unit in non-vehicle combat. With how easy it is for self healing, self repairing units to defeat them with a number of weapons, they have been, as stated before, marginalized. This is nowhere more obvious than the AI MAX. Intent: Powerful vs specific unit types. Result: Weaker than the units they are specifically designed to counter. This is contradictory at its core.

You seem to be arguing that Infantry should be more powerful than Anti-Infantry units. Is this what you're saying because this is how the game currently is. It's like medicine resistant infections and spray resistant bugs. A clear reversal of the intended design. If I'm wrong and you think Anti-Infantry units should be stronger than Infantry units, please say so.

[FriendlyFire]

What I was suggesting is, for infantry to rely on HA "specialists" instead of spamming Deci ammo. This will also allow for MAX "specialists."

I like what I read in another post (rephrased): instead of relying on rock, paper, scissors, bring your best rock, best paper and your best scissors.

[Redshift]

You seem to be arguing that Infantry should be more powerful than Anti-Infantry units. Is this what you're saying because this is how the game currently is. It's like medicine resistant infections and spray resistant bugs. A clear reversal of the intended design. If I'm wrong and you think Anti-Infantry units should be stronger than Infantry units, please say so.

So you think what? the counter to a base full of AI MAXs is to bring an army of AV MAXs? The foot speed is so slow there's no way you're going to make that stick with FPS fans

[FIREk]

All infantry units should have _some_ sort of counter against MAX units and vehicles. Someone suggested grenades, which would supposedly be weak, but able to harm a MAX if timed right (let's say it's explode on contact).

Since all squishies can be hurt by anything, it would be unfair to make MAXes the only rock-paper-scissors unit, one that needs an exact counter in the form of a dedicated AV trooper or AV MAX.

Can you imagine defending a base entrance, when suddenly a MAX (or two) bust in through the main door and you have absolutely no means to do anything but run or hide? I would rather not...

I would prefer to hurt it, even if it's risky and won't do much damage (since I would be using a sub-par weapon).

Serious AV weapons should be limited to dedicated AV classes, but some counter to vehicles and MAXes should be available to anyone. A tank can't just waltz through infantry unmolested. Even if none are an AV class, a dozen infantry with pointed sticks should make a tank think twice before recklessly attacking them.

[FriendlyFire]

All infantry units should have _some_ sort of counter against MAX units and vehicles. Someone suggested grenades, which would supposedly be weak, but able to harm a MAX if timed right (let's say it's explode on contact).

Since all squishies can be hurt by anything, it would be unfair to make MAXes the only rock-paper-scissors unit, one that needs an exact counter in the form of a dedicated AV trooper or AV MAX.

Can you imagine defending a base entrance, when suddenly a MAX (or two) bust in through the main door and you have absolutely no means to do anything but run or hide? I would rather not...

I would prefer to hurt it, even if it's risky and won't do much damage (since I would be using a sub-par weapon).

Serious AV weapons should be limited to dedicated AV classes, but some counter to vehicles and MAXes should be available to anyone. A tank can't just waltz through infantry unmolested. Even if none are an AV class, a dozen infantry with pointed sticks should make a tank think twice before recklessly attacking them.

Any situation can be made to sound as bad (or good) if the right examples are used.

A well rounded team, attacking or defending, should always be stronger than a group of random, unorganized, players.

I.E. As you spawn, three people choose MAX load outs and head in the same direction. It would probably be best to grab your Engineer loadout/class and help repair them.

MAXs will almost always have an Engineer and/or Medic. MAXs will not be self sustaining in PS2. The counter should be to keep them from being healed/repaired.

[FIREk]

Any situation can be made to sound as bad (or good) if the right examples are used.

A well rounded team, attacking or defending, should always be stronger than a group of random, unorganized, players.

Stronger is one thing, constantly getting steamrolled as a random, unorganized player, is another. And steamrolling is what happens when an organized team figures out how unstoppable MAXes are if the opposition doesn't have a specific counter.

An advantage is fine, but if random players (which PS2 needs, as a game) keep hitting walls on a regular basis, even though they have individual FPS skill, they end up with a game that keeps punishing them.

This is what happens in APB and is possibly one of the reasons why people cheat there so eagerly.

You give a player any sort of counter against anything - he goes down fighting. Give him nothing - he goes down powerless and eventually feels cheated. He may learn and eventually start playing as an AV trooper, but he may quit the game entirely, before he has a chance to learn.

[Malorn]

I hate forcing teamwork via classes. I don't see why a heavy grunt can't carry his MCG and Deci.

The reason is teamwork and balance. If everyone has AV it means vehicles and max are very strong and infantry are more or less forced to use them. If they are more limited vehicles and max can be weaker, as well as give those av classes more value. That said, they could still have AP ammo. In ps2 you might even have to use it and (omg!!) make a tradeoff decision.

[Malorn]

Also, there could be a more generalist "grunt" class that might have more versatility but not the most specialized weaponry, like AV\MA w a choice of either med or bank. That would help against the problem of everyone switching to HA anytime there is an indoor fight. If engies are better at AV then perhaps they will have value too and we will see a mix of classes indoors.

For that to happen the do-it-all rexo grunt template must die.

[FriendlyFire]

Stronger is one thing, constantly getting steamrolled as a random, unorganized player, is another. And steamrolling is what happens when an organized team figures out how unstoppable MAXes are if the opposition doesn't have a specific counter.

An advantage is fine, but if random players (which PS2 needs, as a game) keep hitting walls on a regular basis, even though they have individual FPS skill, they end up with a game that keeps punishing them.

This is what happens in APB and is possibly one of the reasons why people cheat there so eagerly.

You give a player any sort of counter against anything - he goes down fighting. Give him nothing - he goes down powerless and eventually feels cheated. He may learn and eventually start playing as an AV trooper, but he may quit the game entirely, before he has a chance to learn.

PS2 should be balanced around team work not "OMGMUHMIZZILZPWNEVRYTHNG." It sounds like PS2 is going to be a team based game and not balanced around being a Super Soldier. We are essentially saying the same thing. With the class system players will have the opportunity to "balance" their side.

Just to be clear, I am not wanting MAXs to be one man, indoor, tanks, but I think the balancing should be done so they can fill their role and excel at it. Just like HA/AV/MED/ENG excel at their roles.

I agree with Malorn.

[FIREk]

Just to clarify, I don't want to resurrect the current everyone_has_badass_AV_on_their_back scheme. I don't want universal super-soldiers.

My point is to give everyone a pathetic (when compared to proper AV weaponry) counter to MAXes and vehicles, so that a room full of grunts will be able to kill a reckless MAX or two, at the cost of ignoring any infantry that may have flooded in behind them.

Whether it's a grenade, a light rocket launcher (RPG/LAW-ish) or AP ammo, I don't care. I just want _something_ to even the odds, and don't want the MAX to be the only infantry class that needs a specific counter-class to be killed, unlike every other class. :)

[animagic]

The biggest problem with AV in PS1 wasnt the fact that everyone could have it. Yes, this is true, but it was large and you couldnt carry much ammo for it especially if it was a second or third weapon in your backpack. Personally, I carried 1 Deci in every loadout and had a seperate loadout with all Pheonixes, nothing else. It worked well in PS1, giving me enough AV to take out a max if he was alone, or enough AV to take out a tank/multiple maxes if I had support.

The problem was that everyone wanted to be a superhero, running into CCs with their silly max suits all by themselves, or running around with their tank and just a gunner. No supporting elements helping them, and then they cried and felt weak and useless because they didnt value the usefullness of teamwork. Regardless of what people thought, the actuality of the game was that AV wasnt really very strong at all. It was the inability to work together that brought silly maxes down.

I've seen a group of guys in pajamas in a spawn room, freshly spawned, take out a max with their Suppressors (sp?) just by using standard ammo. I've also been one of those freshly spawned guys quick enough to run to the terminal, grab my standard Grunt loadout with 1 Deci and run off through a door before the max could turn fast enough to kill me, then swing back through and kill him without a thought. It was pitiful, yet the lone idiot sitting in a spawn room by himself or doing other similar stupid things thus whines about "balance" and why his super max suit cant stand up to a grunt is simply because of teamwork.

Learn it. Embrace it. Live it, and you will be much the better.

[Malorn]

I like ap ammo. It has a clear tradeoff and is also not as effective as true AV.

[EASyEightyEight]

You'd be surprised how fast a MAX being pelted by 3-4 guys using standard ammo will go down. The problem is most people have it ingrained in their heads to run like hell when they see a MAX, instead of focus firing upon it. 2 guys with AP ammo will cut it down without ever needing to reload. Most VS really don't know how easy they have it in that regard. The pulsar is a beast, but that and the armor is all I miss about the VS.

The counter to MAXes without access to AV weaponry is to simply shoot at it... from behind cover of course. They're pretty damn slow. Use that advantage.

[Talek Krell]

Just so we're all on the same page: no one is suggesting that maxes be immune to small arms fire or anything, right? So it's not that infantry *couldn't* take down a max without AV, it would just take concentrated fire.

[Vancha]

MAXs will not be self sustaining in PS2.
Source?

Of course you're probably right, but I think people are being far too assumptive in here.

We don't know what MAXs will be weak against, we don't know how fast they'll move and we don't know whether any of them will be specialized for an AI role...

Yes, they probably will be AV-weak, slow and capable of killing infantry, but with the new pace of the game and the new weapons, assuming the only decent counter will be AV weapons seems a little premature...and if it ends up that MAXs run riot against anything without a rocket launcher, it'd probably be changed in beta.

[Rbstr]

I don't get what the problem is. If MAXes are good vs. infantry, people will use them. If the AV is strong vs. MAXes (combined with non-av not being very good against them) and MAXes are present people will use it.

If you're a party of infantry without AV and you run into some maxes...why shouldn't you get stomped? It's your own damn fault for not bringing any AV. MAx kills normal infantry, infantry kills AV troops, AV troops kill maxes.

Substitute Max for vehicle or tank and it still works. I don't get the problem here.

[FriendlyFire]

I don't get what the problem is. If MAXes are good vs. infantry, people will use them. If the AV is strong vs. MAXes (combined with non-av not being very good against them) and MAXes are present people will use it.

If you're a party of infantry without AV and you run into some maxes...why shouldn't you get stomped? Its you're own damn fault for not bringing any AV. MAx kills normal infantry, infantry kills AV troops, AV troops kill maxes.

Substitute Max for vehicle or tank and it still works. I don't get the problem here.

This.

[Raymac]

I don't get what the problem is. If MAXes are good vs. infantry, people will use them. If the AV is strong vs. MAXes (combined with non-av not being very good against them) and MAXes are present people will use it.

If you're a party of infantry without AV and you run into some maxes...why shouldn't you get stomped? Its you're own damn fault for not bringing any AV. MAx kills normal infantry, infantry kills AV troops, AV troops kill maxes.

Substitute Max for vehicle or tank and it still works. I don't get the problem here.

First of all, it's "your own damn Vault". Get it right. ;)

Secondly, you are 100% right. One of the cool things about Planetside is that it had this rock, paper, scissors aspect to it. Everything had a counter to it, so while things like Max Crashes and Bombing Raids worked good for short term results, the best fights always come from combined arms.

[Rbstr]

That it is, I'm usually pretty good about catching that one.

At any rate, that's the thing, right? If you notice the other team has no AV, you throw maxes at them for massive damage. Lots of maxes? AV time.

If it's set up properly, a giant max crash could be rather effective at first, depening on how many AV they're up against - may be even win the battle outright (owing to the organization getting everyone in a max suit needs), but if it keeps going the AV troops should be showing up and repelling it.
Doubly so because a max can't heal itself.

That being said...I do support some light-weight AV that troops could carry. But it would be along the lines of the HA trooper carrying an rifle + the LAW instead of a heavy AI weapon (while AV troops would likely get an SMG or carbine)

[FIREk]

I think you're viewing this from a narrow perspective. Not everyone will be part of a pre-organized squad/platoon.

If you're a random player in a random squad, why should you be the AV guy (and possibly be gimped during most of the fight)? Who decides that, and who exactly is to blame when MAXes steamroll through your group? Was everyone stupid? Would everyone be stupid if too many people chose an AV class that is less effective against regular infantry? Should randoms be punished because they play the game on a different level? I don't think so.

Hopefully MAXes won't be near-impervious to small arms fire. If they are, they would be the only infantry class that needs a direct counter, and that would just be wrong.

[Raymac]

I think you're viewing this from a narrow perspective. Not everyone will be part of a pre-organized squad/platoon.

If you're a random player in a random squad, why should you be the AV guy (and possibly be gimped during most of the fight)? Who decides that, and who exactly is to blame when MAXes steamroll through your group? Was everyone stupid? Would everyone be stupid if too many people chose an AV class that is less effective against regular infantry? Should randoms be punished because they play the game on a different level? I don't think so.

Hopefully MAXes won't be near-impervious to small arms fire. If they are, they would be the only infantry class that needs a direct counter, and that would just be wrong.

Don't take this the wrong way, but from my point of view, it looks like you are viewing it from a narrow perspective. Planetside isn't about 1 squad versus another, it's about squads upon squads of people all battling each other. So across that many people, you will see different "classes". It happens naturally just as it does in Planetside.

So for example, if you are defending a base, you see a Commander shout out, "Incoming Max Crash" well a certain number of people will switch to their loadout to counter the Maxes. Obviously not everyone will run and grab a deci, but if enough people do, the MCT fails, if enough people don't the MCT will crush. Not everything has to be totally organized to still work, in fact the chaos is part of the fun.

[Krowe]

I hate forcing teamwork via classes. I don't see why a heavy grunt can't carry his MCG and Deci.

This. The variety present in PS1 (except eveyone and their mother using their heavy assault weapons in slot 2) is actually what makes teamwork so viable. The fluidity that each member brings to the table is increased by the variation between them, and also allows for greater tactical abilities and overall cohesion.

Whew, big words.

[Sovereign]

Source?

Of course you're probably right, but I think people are being far too assumptive in here.


One who makes a definitive claim of the like should always provide some source or backing regardless...

Besides have any of the devs even divulged any information in regards to maxes? I think not, certainly not from the last panel they've been in..

[EASyEightyEight]

Hopefully MAXes won't be near-impervious to small arms fire. If they are, they would be the only infantry class that needs a direct counter, and that would just be wrong.

Y'see, this is the problem with people and MAXes (and most lighter vehicles actually:) they've ingrained into their heads that you either fight them with AV or die. Seriously, even if your whole squad is just packing MA loaded with standard ammo, shoot the ****ing thing, it goes down quick to 10 guys unloading on it. They have about as much life as a harasser or a mossy (which amounts to very little actually) Now, admittedly, a MAX crash will ruin your day, but even with everyone loaded with AV it can get messy. It's not like they keel over in one decimator rocket.

Hell, a full magazine of AP ammo from the Cycler is enough to completely destroy an unshielded mossy.

This. The variety present in PS1 (except eveyone and their mother using their heavy assault weapons in slot 2) is actually what makes teamwork so viable. The fluidity that each member brings to the table is increased by the variation between them, and also allows for greater tactical abilities and overall cohesion.

Whew, big words.

If by variation you mean which slots your med app and glue-gun go in and which slots your AV and HA go in, I agree. Except more often than not, I've seen if one is a foot soldier, they're often a rexo packing HA/AV/Med/Engi. If they're expecting longer range fights, they may trade either the AV or the HA (typically HA) for either an MA or a Bolt-driver. Either way, there is always 2 tools strapped to just about every soldier in the field: the med app and the glue gun. In my opinion classes are great because they fix this major factor of the one-man army/super soldiers we see today.

[Krowe]

Honestly, I just hope the Striker (in its Planetside function) doesn't make a return. Its effectiveness and usefulness is limited, the most I use it for is to make Light Aircraft shit their pants.

[FIREk]

Honestly, I just hope the Striker (in its Planetside function) doesn't make a return. Its effectiveness and usefulness is limited, the most I use it for is to make Light Aircraft shit their pants.

What's the alternative to a simple lock-on weapon, though? The NC already have their camera-guided missiles, the VS have direct LoS beams... Is there any other guidance scheme in g ames?

The AT4 from BFBC2 is nice, but it's pretty skill-heavy when you're trying to hit a moving target. And hitting a barely moving chopper is hard enough, not to mention a Mossie blitzing across the battlefield. ;)

[exLupo]

And hitting a barely moving chopper is hard enough, not to mention a Mossie blitzing across the battlefield. ;)

Hitting juking fast movers sucks for NC and VS. Might as well have TR join the club.

[Aractain]

Cannons! Guided by your hand. Like a burster but faster projectiles and no or very small explovesive.

Have an awesome balance curve where lighter aircraft natually don't get hit if the pilot moves around where as bigger ones need thier armour to take the hits.

Much better than crappy lockon crap.

[FIREk]

Hitting juking fast movers sucks for NC and VS. Might as well have TR join the club.

Have you played BFBC2 and used the AT4? The VS and NC at least have proper aiming mechanisms, like a camera and crosshair. Hitting a fast-moving (let alone flying) target with an AT4 guided missile is pretty abstract. You aim somewhere in front of the target, while actually looking at the missile itself to see what the result is. So you're not so much aiming, as forcing an object to go where you want it to go, with no aiming mechanism or depth perception to helo you. No comparison with a Phoenix or Lancer.

Of course if the new Striker required more precise aiming to "paint" the target, and the missiles were more maneuverable than the AT4, the problem would be gone.


Cannons! Guided by your hand. Like a burster but faster projectiles and no or very small explovesive.
(...)

I thought about this today. It kind of fits the TR mentality, actually. Think of the anti-tank rifles the Russians used in WWII. Make them rapid-fire and make their projectiles blow up (a bit) in proximity to aircraft and it gets pretty cool. ;)

[Vancha]

What's the alternative to a simple lock-on weapon, though? The NC already have their camera-guided missiles, the VS have direct LoS beams... Is there any other guidance scheme in g ames?
Laser-guided, a la HL2 rocket launchers (when you fight the helicopter things)?

Explosion on demand? Fire once to fire, fire again to detonate? Or even have detonate be a secondary fire (not a secondary fire mode) so you can fire multiple rockets and detonate them in a line?

A flak-type "explosion upon proximity" effect?

And then of course various types of arcs...

Beyond that you could probably come up with any number of convoluted delivery systems. Take the scorpion and remove the minimum height requirement and you have an AV that you're purposely firing above the heads of the entities you want it to hit.

Speaking of AV, I'd love to see some kind of "rebound" mechanic similar to the Pyro's compression blast in TF2 (though I imagine it wouldn't work against anything but infantry and MAX AV).

[Effective]

Fun fact about max units currently in PS1, every max in the game has a faster TTK then the decimator (6 seconds), so for all the people who are complaining about the decimator being to powerful (or something like that), DIAF please.

Reduce all max units into 1 suit with interchangeable weapons, reduce price of max unit + weapons, reduce effectiveness vs. infantry with AA/AV weapons, remove armor healing from medical terminals, make AV/AP ammo do health damage to max units. Then add a GOOD infantry held counter for max units OR a max unit that won't suicide due to splash damage, yet can still kill several max units (think the original TR DC max).

There should be LESS max units, not more. There needs to be BETTER max counters, not worse. Currently the RPS concept for PS1 is broken (especially with the addition of extra BR). My biggest issue with max units is that it makes it nearly impossible to physically push enemy bases when you have less pop then said enemies, because all they have to do is just pull max unit after max unit after max unit, to drive you out of their base. I find max units dumb down teamwork rather then enhance it.

Worried about choke points that max units are needed for? Make bases and fighting areas less crowded and reduce the number of narrow hallways, encourage MA rifle usage. Easy solution is easy

As for the "super solider comments", reduce battle rank back to BR20, increase cert costs for various certs, easy solution is easy. Give players the option to solo still if they don't want to play with a group, but make them pay the price for those certs. Being able to self-repair/heal yourself without screaming like a little girl for a heal and still have some fighting ability was one of the things I enjoyed about PS1.

Back on topic, the lancer is the best AV in the game, the striker is the most useless AV in the game, and the phoenix is awesome indoors or in groups of 5 or more.

[CutterJohn]

Laser-guided, a la HL2 rocket launchers (when you fight the helicopter things)?

That and wire guided, like bf2. My preference, as it still takes a good amount of skill, especially to hit things at range.

[Vancha]

Fun fact about max units currently in PS1, every max in the game has a faster TTK then the decimator (6 seconds), so for all the people who are complaining about the decimator being to powerful (or something like that), DIAF please.
Does that include all the time the infantry spends behind a wall between shots? :p

As for the "super solider comments", reduce battle rank back to BR20, increase cert costs for various certs, easy solution is easy. Give players the option to solo still if they don't want to play with a group, but make them pay the price for those certs. Being able to self-repair/heal yourself without screaming like a little girl for a heal and still have some fighting ability was one of the things I enjoyed about PS1.
Assuming we'll have some self-healing capability (medpacks/implants etc.), I think classes could be better, so long as they're given enough cool things to make up for the loss in versatility.

[Effective]

Does that include all the time the infantry spends behind a wall between shots? :p


Assuming we'll have some self-healing capability (medpacks/implants etc.), I think classes could be better, so long as they're given enough cool things to make up for the loss in versatility.


Afterall, max units can't camp at a corner either ./end sarcasm (but no, hold the trigger down, 6 seconds to fire 3 decis).

I don't see what was wrong with being able to heal and repair yourself, things only started getting unbalanced AFTER they added in extra battle rank.

[Malorn]

Fun fact about max units currently in PS1, every max in the game has a faster TTK then the decimator (6 seconds), so for all the people who are complaining about the decimator being to powerful (or something like that), DIAF please.

Reduce all max units into 1 suit with interchangeable weapons, reduce price of max unit + weapons, reduce effectiveness vs. infantry with AA/AV weapons, remove armor healing from medical terminals, make AV/AP ammo do health damage to max units. Then add a GOOD infantry held counter for max units OR a max unit that won't suicide due to splash damage, yet can still kill several max units (think the original TR DC max).

There should be LESS max units, not more. There needs to be BETTER max counters, not worse. Currently the RPS concept for PS1 is broken (especially with the addition of extra BR). My biggest issue with max units is that it makes it nearly impossible to physically push enemy bases when you have less pop then said enemies, because all they have to do is just pull max unit after max unit after max unit, to drive you out of their base. I find max units dumb down teamwork rather then enhance it.

Worried about choke points that max units are needed for? Make bases and fighting areas less crowded and reduce the number of narrow hallways, encourage MA rifle usage. Easy solution is easy

As for the "super solider comments", reduce battle rank back to BR20, increase cert costs for various certs, easy solution is easy. Give players the option to solo still if they don't want to play with a group, but make them pay the price for those certs. Being able to self-repair/heal yourself without screaming like a little girl for a heal and still have some fighting ability was one of the things I enjoyed about PS1.

Back on topic, the lancer is the best AV in the game, the striker is the most useless AV in the game, and the phoenix is awesome indoors or in groups of 5 or more.
You max suggestions would render MAX useless and far too easy to kill. Their purpose is combined arms. Used in mass is a problem but not in moderation (like most things). You seem to not want them in the game. However if you have current planetside as your context... Current PS is so far down the crapper i dont think any conclusions should be based on it.

[CutterJohn]

As for the "super solider comments", reduce battle rank back to BR20, increase cert costs for various certs, easy solution is easy. Give players the option to solo still if they don't want to play with a group, but make them pay the price for those certs. Being able to self-repair/heal yourself without screaming like a little girl for a heal and still have some fighting ability was one of the things I enjoyed about PS1.

Limiting what they can carry is a far easier method of limiting super soldiers, and doesn't force people to play the same way every day.

[Effective]

You max suggestions would render MAX useless and far too easy to kill. Their purpose is combined arms. Used in mass is a problem but not in moderation (like most things). You seem to not want them in the game. However if you have current planetside as your context... Current PS is so far down the crapper i dont think any conclusions should be based on it.

How would they be far to easy to kill? It'd be the exact same TTK. The only difference is...

1 Max armor with interchangeable weapons
- People will no longer be able to spam max suit after max suit, wearing down enemies through attrition instead of skill/teamwork
- It prevents 1 person being able to rotate his max armors to reset his health, I've pulled a burster, killed a softie, took 2 decis, pulled pounder killed a softie, took 2 decis, pulled my DC max, killed a softie, took 2 decis, switched to agile sweeper and killed another, oh yeah, that super balanced.
- It allows a max user to freely switch out his weapon, without setting a timer on his previous weapon (so this is a buff really)

Having AP/AV weapons do health damage
- People will no longer be able to grab a max from a terminal during the middle of a fight, and be basically back to full health even though he might only have 1 HP left (though this is extremely amusing, it's also extremely not fun to fight against).

Removing armor healing from medical terminals
- it makes sure that teammate need to repair friendly maxs

Adding a good handheld counter for the max unit OR adding a max unit that isn't going to suicide on itself because of splash damage, but is still decent at killing other max units
- People speak of the deci as some end all of max units when it's not, it's OK if you're defensive and a max is pushing you, but if the situation is reversed, the deci is about as useful as using a suppressor standard against HA rexo, adding a decent hand held infantry counter will reinforce good FPS skills and TEAMWORK, instead of overwhelming and opponent via attrition.
- If not a decent hand held counter, a anti-max max then. Good AV damage, no splash weapons so it won't suicide on itself. The reason I find AV max such a poor counter is that you HAVE to be defensive to make the best of it, and in order to make sure you don't splash yourself, you have to expose yourself to enemy fire to often hit what you want to hit, making you into decimator/AV bait.

There needs to be a decent max counter in the game and I'd prefer it to not be another max unit, though it could be it's own cert and expensive. Because having another max being the only real max counter is going to encourage the proliferation of max units again, turning planetside 2 into a boring camp fest like PS1 is. Max units in PS1 are only used to overwhelm a small group of good players (though to be fair, defense is horribly overpowered in PS1 with camping corners and interlink), but max units also make it nearly impossible to successfully push, fight, and win against higher population.

Limiting what they can carry is a far easier method of limiting super soldiers, and doesn't force people to play the same way every day.

There's nothing wrong with the current cert system, it only went wrong when they added in extra battle rank. If you want to change the way you play, SOE just needs to add in free certification resets every 1-2 weeks, and then you should also have the option to make alternate characters. Removing soloing from PS is not a good idea in my opinion.

If you're worried about HA/AV/Rexo/Mossie/Medical/Engineering/Adv hack/etc, individuals. Increase the cost of certain support certs, decrease cert points back to BR20. Bam, soloing/self-reliability is still available to a certain degree. But it will be impossible to have HA/AV/Rexo/Mossie/Medical/Engineering/Adv. hack (which is what you could get up to BR23).

[EASyEightyEight]

Yeah, knock it backto BR20 as teh cap and now one has to choose between adv hacking or the mossie. No way in hell they'll ditch the rexo/HA/AV/med/engi combo, they're too damn important. The other two are like bonus in comparison, ease of travel or faster hack times.

Classes really are the way to go. Solo play needs some real definitive limiter. Sure, you can heal yourself, but you're not going to be packing anything much bigger than a standard issue rifle, and your armor will eventually reach its limit. Likewise, you can come geared to take on an army of MAX suits, but you'll need support to shrug off all the wounds you may suffer in the process.

Right now, if for ANY reason you're NOT in a vehicle, you probably have a med-app and a glue gun fused to your ass. It's not even a choice anymore. No one ever truly backs each other up for the sake of mutual survival as a result. Classes will change that.

Restrict the cert points even further to prevent the rexo/HA/AV/engi/med combo, and why have certs at all? You buy two skills and you're done. Time to reroll!

[Raymac]

There's nothing wrong with the current cert system, it only went wrong when they added in extra battle rank. If you want to change the way you play, SOE just needs to add in free certification resets every 1-2 weeks, and then you should also have the option to make alternate characters. Removing soloing from PS is not a good idea in my opinion.


Considering the extremely deep skill trees that the devs have been excitedly mentioning, it sounds like that train has already left the station. If you are hoping for PS2 to have the PS1 cert system, it's already too late and you are just going to have to deal with it.

Also, I'm getting a sense in your posts that you kinda don't like Max units. I wonder how much you actually use them, because you keep talking about this TTK with decis as if infantry don't go behind cover between shots and use the Max's slow speed and agility against them. While it's true that AI Maxes just melt infantry (that kind of is what their purpose is), I don't have much luck killing infantry with AA or even AV Maxes. That doesn't mean other players don't have better skill, but it's not as easy as you seem to think.

I guess my point about Maxes is that I don't think they are as broken as you seem to say. I love your idea of 1 Max suit + different weapon attachments, but I think you are overstating the power of the Max vs. Infantry w/ AV.

[Bags]

Cert scattermax.
Become a god.

[Raymac]

Cert scattermax.
Become a god.

Oh, I do, and I am....until someone gets behind me, then I can't sit down for a week. Turning isn't a Max's best ability.

[Bags]

I just crank up my mouse's sensitivity from 400 to 3200 DPI when I need to turn in a max.

[Raymac]

hack ;)

[Rbstr]

I've been playing scatter max recently.
It's great...until you run into more than one person with a deci...which is about all the time.

Really, that's how it should be. It stomps face until it runs into it's moral enemy. The only problem is the prevalence of the deci. In indoors fights, more people have them than don't.

[Aractain]

I just crank up my mouse's sensitivity from 400 to 3200 DPI when I need to turn in a max.

Yeah, if they have MAXs turn slow in PS2, lets hope they fix that little slipup.

[Bags]

Yeah, if they have MAXs turn slow in PS2, lets hope they fix that little slipup.

Yeah, one day I was like "I wonder if I can crank the DPI up and turn faster" and lo and behold it worked.

So broken.

[Effective]

Considering the extremely deep skill trees that the devs have been excitedly mentioning, it sounds like that train has already left the station. If you are hoping for PS2 to have the PS1 cert system, it's already too late and you are just going to have to deal with it.

Also, I'm getting a sense in your posts that you kinda don't like Max units. I wonder how much you actually use them, because you keep talking about this TTK with decis as if infantry don't go behind cover between shots and use the Max's slow speed and agility against them. While it's true that AI Maxes just melt infantry (that kind of is what their purpose is), I don't have much luck killing infantry with AA or even AV Maxes. That doesn't mean other players don't have better skill, but it's not as easy as you seem to think.

I guess my point about Maxes is that I don't think they are as broken as you seem to say. I love your idea of 1 Max suit + different weapon attachments, but I think you are overstating the power of the Max vs. Infantry w/ AV.

I have no doubt certs are already changed/etc, doesn't mean I can't dislike it.

And you'd be right, I don't like max units. That being said I HAVE used them substantially, my main TR (BR40/CR5) has max user plat , and my NC (33/5) has plat as well. They take almost no effort to use and it boggles my mind how dumb some people are. Want to take on a corner camping deci user with a MAX? Hit autorun, run against the wall for a second to build speed, run up stairs at full speed (use special ability if applicable, poor TR), own decimator users face. Need to turn around to shoot the guy behind you, flick up mouse DPI from 400 to 6000, turn around switch back, own deci users face. At close range like that the deci user is also going to injure HIMSELF, allowing you to kill him even faster.

I've been told by a couple different people I can use a burster like it's a scatmax, I don't miss. The only AA max I see that should struggle against infantry is the starfire, and that's only when the target is more then 10m away. Using a max is like using the microwave, does all the work for you. Who knows, maybe my level of ability with my crappy laptop just far exceeds thousands of other players. Maxs are broken, it's just dumb people use them the most. No offense.

I've been playing scatter max recently.
It's great...until you run into more than one person with a deci...which is about all the time.

Really, that's how it should be. It stomps face until it runs into it's moral enemy. The only problem is the prevalence of the deci. In indoors fights, more people have them than don't.

I only run into trouble with 3 decis users in my scat (unless I'm corner camping, then they're all dead). Shield > Decimator

[Bags]

I only run into trouble with 3 decis users in my scat (unless I'm corner camping, then they're all dead). Shield > Decimator

It's even worse when they have pshield.