My main concern about the class system

[DviddLeff]

The class system I see as overall being a good thing; in PS giving one player too many options turned people into one man armies being able to take down infantry and vehicles well and then heal, repair and use command abilities all with a single load out.

Making players specialise to a specific role at a time will lead to a great amount of teamwork being required, just like in the early days of PS where people were restricted with their certs (imagine a time when only a few people were BR15, let alone 20) and so had to specialise totally.

In my upgrade projects certification overhaul (https://sites.google.com/site/planetsideupgradeproject/phase-3/certification-overhaul) I retained the inventory and cert system, just massively reduced the amount of cert points available so that any one player could only really afford one advanced weapon cert (eg HA or AV), a support role and a vehicle as well as a special armour (MAX, Agile with jump jets or Infil).

However the problem I see is one of specialised squads of players. For example if you have a fast assault squad equipped with jump jets to perform hit and run attacks, will any of them be able to have a support role, or will they be confined to that fast assault role while they use the jump jets? Will they be able to use AV or AA weapons (perhaps weaker, lighter ones than a Rexo may carry)?

[Vancha]

A medic with jumpjets? That's the one thing I might play over a sniper...

*Jumps in*
Fear not, citizen! I am here to heal you!
*Flies off*

[Bags]

I don't like class system at all. Their cert system in ps1 worked fine until we got half a million certs to spend.

[Raymac]

It sounds like "customization" is the key word the devs have been throwing our direction, so I have a feeling they have this covered. But we won't know until we get to see it.

[opticalshadow]

I don't like class system at all. Their cert system in ps1 worked fine until we got half a million certs to spend.

well the orginal cert system did not contain any package cert deals. every vehicle was its own cert, though guns remained much the same. so there was alot more certs needed to achomplish things. they merged certs when the playerbase declined and the requirement for less soldires preforming more jobs was needed.


the class system sounds free forming enough on paper, but i wish they would give us a video example of their concept.

[Aractain]

They need to tell us about this.

What my impression tells me is that like PS you can choose your armour regarless of spec. So medics/riflegirl/heavy assault being able to choose agile or rexo (or whatever they are called).

Do we know if the jumpjets are an option or part of the basic setup for the light armour?

[CutterJohn]

Its a positive and negative. It will provide more options for balance, but will of course limit your customization. I personally wasn't very fond of the original number of certs.. I'm very indecisive and want to switch roles a lot.

The class system seems nice. Easy to get into being able to do pretty much anything, but you won't do it all that well or have all the options.

[ShowNoMercy]

They need to tell us about this.

What my impression tells me is that like PS you can choose your armour regarless of spec. So medics/riflegirl/heavy assault being able to choose agile or rexo (or whatever they are called).

Do we know if the jumpjets are an option or part of the basic setup for the light armour?

I don't believe that will be the case, I've heard mention that they want to restrict Agile HA combo that tower droppers so frequently used. If you are using "heavy" assault you should play the part of heavy infantry. (lots of dmg lots of armor, but very slow).

[Aractain]

Yeah I thought that also but can't remember where it was stated.

Maybe each "class" has armour options you can choose? (which is a better way of saying what I ment)

[Senyu]

If they made us wait forever just to even hear that PS2 existed and was even being worked on at all, imagine how agonizely long they could make us wait for this information?





And we would wait for it

[Highwind]

In defense of that Classes COULD be:

The Devs have placed a high value on customization, we've heard it, and I think most of us agree we like what we've heard so far.

One of the main issues with high levels of customization if that many people will attempt to build exploitative or unfair combinations of skills. An example of that no one wants to see is a heavy soldier with heavy assault and also having a "jump-pack" aka jetpack. I think this combination is largely behind the fear that jetpacks have.

The Devs have a few solutions, one is if they were to have no Jump-Packs at all, which is kind of a let down in the sense that it removes so many possibilities before they are given a chance. Another option is to make them so weak (aka nerf them) that no one will pick up that skill in a mass population sense, so why have them and continue to have them in the balance equation. The best option that comes to mind is the have some "skills" not be compatible with each other at all, aka you can't have heavy assault AND a jump-pack, period.

Quickly you'll see a web of conflicting "skills" in where you can't use A, while you use B, etc. So to solve this issue you just make certain unique "skills" be the defining skill for a Class, aka Scouts have a jump-pack as default or as one of their class only tree options. Then you can build on each class with as many customizationas you want in an easier to understand framework, it isn't as clear that you can't use your "Flamethrower" with a "jump-pack" if it was just freeform cert "webs", vs it being slightly more clear that Scouts can't use that tier of heavy weapon due to all of the reasons that can be derived, it just feels better.

So if you follow all of that, I believe this is the main thought behind Planetside 2 classes. Unique starting points, each with subtle or not so subtle features to them that you can then build on top of and shape into what you want them to be.

Some final examples might be: A wall breaching scout with his skills learned in such a way that helps him assault the ramparts around a tower or base, vs a scout that learns Sniper skills and uses his jump-pack to get up to higher and better sniping spots. Both a scout "class", yet they couldn't be much more different in their roles. etc etc, for other "classes" if it turns out working out like this, which is how I feel they are hinting at.

[DviddLeff]

https://sites.google.com/site/planetsideupgradeproject/home/Agile%20specialisation%20tree%20overview.png

https://sites.google.com/site/planetsideupgradeproject/home/Medic%20specialisation%20tree%20overview.png

So something like that?

[Coreldan]

I can't agree with HA and Jump-packs in the same picture :D

Agile Light Heavy Assault sounds a bit conflicting.

[DviddLeff]

Was just looking at that and thinking "wtf" myself :p

[SKYeXile]

I don't like class system at all. Their cert system in ps1 worked fine until we got half a million certs to spend.

I like your use of the my little pony avatar and the homosexuality it represents, i may just have to steal the use of it from you.

[Lunarchild]

I really hope they'll leave the choice of armor in the game. So you can basically choose from a number of armors for each class. I'd guess HA would be rexo only, but for most others you could definitely choose between rexo and agile ^^

[cashfoyogash]

The only real way to keep people from mastering it all i think is to make it so there is so much to learn and it take so long to learn that its impossible. Much like EVE just to be a proficient miner it takes probably six months time to learn all those skills and then there is still many more mining skills to learn after that. I think SOE took a close look at how EVE did their skill learning set up, we should be ok.

[Lunarchild]

The only real way to keep people from mastering it all i think is to make it so there is so much to learn and it take so long to learn that its impossible. Much like EVE just to be a proficient miner it takes probably six months time to learn all those skills and then there is still many more mining skills to learn after that. I think SOE took a close look at how EVE did their skill learning set up, we should be ok.

Which happens to be the exact thing I loathe about Eve. It takes six months to be effective at anything means you're not playing the game for six months. I personally hope it takes seconds, minutes or hours to learn the basic skill set for any class, definitely not more.

[Warruz]

Which happens to be the exact thing I loathe about Eve. It takes six months to be effective at anything means you're not playing the game for six months. I personally hope it takes seconds, minutes or hours to learn the basic skill set for any class, definitely not more.
I think their goal for such a system is to allow you to pick one class and learn it effortlessly and perhaps the starting certs for the other classes, however to get further down certs you will have to focus on one to keep it on track in terms of your BR. To get the others for other classes it will take more time.

[Headrattle]

The cert system was done rather well when we had the possibility to have fewer certs. The strength of the cert system is that while you could do more, you couldn't do everything at the same time. For example, you could be an HA and a AV trooper, but you wouldn't be able to drive most vehicles, and if you wanted to hack and be a medic, you would have to decrease the amount of ammo you could have by quite a bit. There was a balance there. But that is not all. You couldn't just say "Incoming max units!" and then set up your max killer setup unless you already had that cert.

From what they have said about the class system, you can be a Medic, or an AV guy or an HA guy or a driver. Just not all at the same time, and not as well as your main certs. So, while the driver who sets up an HA loadout may not be as good as the guy who specializes in AV, he is still an HA guy.

Essentially you have traded the concept that a guy could have Engi/HA/AV/Medic at the same time as long as he has the Level (though not as effective at it) with a guy who can change into any class without reguardless of level (though not as effective at it.) It seems strange to me. You get rid of the options of having some different abilities as long as you are high enough level and certs, and replace it with having all different abilities from level one just not at the same time. See what I am getting at here? Doesn't look good.

Of course, that is based upon an assumption. What he keeps talking about is how certs make one more effective at a class. NOT certs gaining more classes.

[DviddLeff]

That's the impression I get as well; its like having everything certed in PS, but you can become better at certain things by focusing on that role and spending your points/resources/time to specialise in it.

I also get the impression that many certs will have to be unlocked as you get more BR, so for example at BR5 you could get access to support certs, BR10 MAX, Infil and Agile armour, etc

[CutterJohn]

Much like EVE just to be a proficient miner it takes probably six months time to learn all those skills and then there is still many more mining skills to learn after that.

In 3 months you can mine 80-90% as good as someone with every mining skill maxed. Which takes MUCH longer.

From how they describe it, You'll be 75% as effective day one at a role in PS2. Maybe missing some sidegrade options that increase your versatility or weapon choices, but you can do the job.


I also get the impression that many certs will have to be unlocked as you get more BR, so for example at BR5 you could get access to support certs, BR10 MAX, Infil and Agile armour, etc

Sounds like it to me too. But I also got the impression that BR was going to not be much of a chokepoint at all. I imagine they are leaving it in just so you can't train an alt up much without playing it for a period of time.



Essentially you have traded the concept that a guy could have Engi/HA/AV/Medic at the same time as long as he has the Level (though not as effective at it) with a guy who can change into any class without reguardless of level (though not as effective at it.) It seems strange to me. You get rid of the options of having some different abilities as long as you are high enough level and certs, and replace it with having all different abilities from level one just not at the same time. See what I am getting at here? Doesn't look good.

I quite like it. You can change classes, but you must go re equip at a terminal. Thats fine by me. PS balance was silly.

"You drive lots of vehicles, so we're going to make you suck when you step out of them"

"You like infantry, so you're going to be farmed by vehicles outside"

PS balance was making you dominate in one area so you could suck in another. It twisted the certs into a rock paper scissors game, where you got to 'win' only part of the time, due to greatly superior equipment options, and put you at a disadvantage the rest of the time.

Thats silly. Its bad balance. Every armor, every vehicle, every weapon should have a role. No single combination should dominate in every situation to the point where thats what everyone picks. There should be a reason to bring MA to a base fight over HA. A reason to bring AV out into the field over a tank.

TF2 has 9 different classes. Do teams always pick just one class? Is there one or two classes that are clearly the best in 95% of the situations? Nope. Everything has a job, and people pick all the classes. Some more than others, sure, and it definitely depends on the environment, but there is always a healthy representation due to usefulness and personal preference.

If classes are balanced, class representation will be balanced. It won't matter if you can switch, because everyone else is switching too. To different stuff, all the time. Your worry that people can switch is a direct result of PSs lack of balance. You assume they will switch to the rexo/av/ha/med/eng class, or the AI max class, because those were clearly dominant in fights indoors, because in PS1, they are totally imbalanced vs any other infantry choice.

[Lonehunter]

I remember Higby saying jump jets will only be available to a lightly armored class.

But to the OP, I think we can still be close to a jack of all trades. Like in one class you can pick up a ground vech, air, a specialized weapon tree, some support skills. But you won't be able to advance deep into every tree?

I'm fine with regular infantry being able to get med engi, but those advanced down those support trees will heal/repair much faster, adv med, stuff like that.

[Bags]

That's the impression I get as well; its like having everything certed in PS, but you can become better at certain things by focusing on that role and spending your points/resources/time to specialise in it.


Yeah definiately going to have to see how this plays out before passing judgment. At the moment I don't really like the sound of it. Hoping I can still do my med / eng / ha / av ^_^

I like your use of the my little pony avatar and the homosexuality it represents, i may just have to steal the use of it from you.

Have a bigger version of it:
http://i.imgur.com/Pfjr2.png

[1Shotwonder]

I don't like class system at all. Their cert system in ps1 worked fine until we got half a million certs to spend.

I have to agree with this and its just how I feel at this time until I hear more info on it... period

[DviddLeff]

Hoping I can still do my med / eng / ha / av ^_^

I'm hoping that you can't have it; with it you are too versatile and independent which is what the devs seem to be putting in the class system to restrict.

The point of this thread is that I am worried about PS2 being too restrictive, making you pick only one of those 4 roles in any life. I want a mid point; one where you can have a support tool (eg medic or engy), but also a particular weapon (eg HA or AV), while having a certain armour (eg Agile or Rexo).

[Aractain]

How does it feel Bags, to be the reason classes were designed?
Maybe the devs HATE YOU?!


Also awesome Pinky.

[Malorn]

I'm a bit torn myself. I like the idea and I see where they can go with it, but the free-form part of PS1 was a significant appeal.

It might end up being sort of like BFBC2 where you have to choose various accessories from a list. It coudl be things like REK, Medical, bank, CUD, etc are all on a shared list of options. So you have options on which one you want, but you have to pick one.

There's different ways they can go to preserve some of that free choice. Just like there may be multiple classes that can drive a buggy, or use MA.

I think if they hit the common styles of play (grunt medic, infil, heavy grunt, tank driver, pilot, etc) while putting in some reasonable restrictions it could turn out just fine.

The main problem with the PS1 cert system is that it didnt' scale and trended towards do-everything soldiers. The PS2 cert system as they describe it will scale very well, and they can always add in new classes at any time with different cert combinations from the existing cert tree.

So I see a lot of flexibility where they could make the vast majority of players happy and give us some flexibility in decisions with the new system. So I'm going to hold back the fears for now and wait til we see what it is like in beta.

[Headrattle]

I quite like it. You can change classes, but you must go re equip at a terminal. Thats fine by me. PS balance was silly.

"You drive lots of vehicles, so we're going to make you suck when you step out of them"

"You like infantry, so you're going to be farmed by vehicles outside"

PS balance was making you dominate in one area so you could suck in another. It twisted the certs into a rock paper scissors game, where you got to 'win' only part of the time, due to greatly superior equipment options, and put you at a disadvantage the rest of the time.

Not really. You had options. You couldn't be everything ever. You could have a vehicle specialty, and an infantry specialty. And you couldn't do the same thing at the same time and be really effective it. Being a driver and carrying around a glue gun meant that you couldn't carry around a lot of ammo or an extra weapon and you weren't usually in Rexo. You could still do that, provided you had the certs, and then you could do it only at an equipment station.

Thats silly. Its bad balance. Every armor, every vehicle, every weapon should have a role. No single combination should dominate in every situation to the point where thats what everyone picks. There should be a reason to bring MA to a base fight over HA. A reason to bring AV out into the field over a tank.
I will agree that HA dominates the situation now, but before we had so many certs HA wasn't so bad. You didn't have HA because you had othercerts that were just as important. Now you HAVE to have HA. But it wasn't always like that. But it is going to have to have Rock Paper Scissors type balance no matter what. Only now EVERYONE has access to whatever skill they need. All the time.

This isn't TF2, so that is a bad example. Classes in TF2 would not work well in a MMOFPS because in PS2 the types of battles will be more varied. Not the same essentially close range grudge fights that TF2 has.

If classes are balanced, class representation will be balanced. It won't matter if you can switch, because everyone else is switching too. To different stuff, all the time. Your worry that people can switch is a direct result of PSs lack of balance. You assume they will switch to the rexo/av/ha/med/eng class, or the AI max class, because those were clearly dominant in fights indoors, because in PS1, they are totally imbalanced vs any other infantry choice.

But it only became that way because they added the possibility of so many cert points. It wasn't always thus. What you are complaining about is only going to get worse. Is there a heavy indoor battle? Most everyone jumps to HA classes. Is it a heavy outdoor battle? Most everyone jumps to AV or long range AI classes. With classes the game of Rock Paper Scissors will get WORSE, not better.

[Malorn]

What you are complaining about is only going to get worse. Is there a heavy indoor battle? Most everyone jumps to HA classes. Is it a heavy outdoor battle? Most everyone jumps to AV or long range AI classes. With classes the game of Rock Paper Scissors will get WORSE, not better.

This is a really good point. If anyone can switch at any time they'll go with whatever the best class is for the situation. I'd like to hear how they plan on addressing that.

I don't think the old system is the correct solution, it would need some modification but the core ideas are sound. Of course at this point they've probably invested so much into the new design that completely revamping it may not be practical. It was one of the two big hightlights of the fanfaire...the new cert system & the resource/territory control changes. Going back on that would take a lot of convincing and would require some fundamental flaws that cannot be resolved by tweaking that system. I think that is quite unlikely. The new system is very likely going to stay, so the question is the nuances of it as opposed to the fundamentals.

[Headrattle]

This is a really good point. If anyone can switch at any time they'll go with whatever the best class is for the situation. I'd like to hear how they plan on addressing that.

And this happens in most class games. Enter into a TF2 game for example. Even though it is a constant close in battle, and everyone has their roles, if there is a role sorely lacking (no medic or no heavy) the new guy is more likely to choose that role. This will get worse for PS2. Assaulting a base with high walls? Most people will likely use the jump jets to get there. Constant infantry zerging in? Most will choose HA. People will tend to choose what they are having the most success at in any given moment. There were many times in PS1 that I wish I had a certain cert at a certain time, but didn't so I had to make due. I still had fun, but I couldn't be everything at once with any real success. With classes, if I need to be something at a certain time, I just hit an equipment station and I am that class. I believe that most players will do this because in other less varied games most players DO do this.

I don't think the old system is the correct solution, it would need some modification but the core ideas are sound. Of course at this point they've probably invested so much into the new design that completely revamping it may not be practical. It was one of the two big hightlights of the fanfaire...the new cert system & the resource/territory control changes. Going back on that would take a lot of convincing and would require some fundamental flaws that cannot be resolved by tweaking that system. I think that is quite unlikely. The new system is very likely going to stay, so the question is the nuances of it as opposed to the fundamentals.

I agree. We shouldn't have a cert system exactly like PS1, but we should be working to make it better. There is another thing. The cert system gave your character personality. This is my tank driver, he is geared to drive tanks and support when out of the tank. I have an HA/AV guy, but he isn't as high. Things like that.

I think that getting the cert so you can choose the class in the first place would be good, but only after so much time has passed so you can know what you want to do.

[Coreldan]

I agree. We shouldn't have a cert system exactly like PS1, but we should be working to make it better. There is another thing. The cert system gave your character personality. This is my tank driver, he is geared to drive tanks and support when out of the tank. I have an HA/AV guy, but he isn't as high. Things like that.

I think that getting the cert so you can choose the class in the first place would be good, but only after so much time has passed so you can know what you want to do.

On another note, "requiring" alts is bad design, IMO

[Headrattle]

On another note, "requiring" alts is bad design, IMO

Who said anything about "requiring alts?" You don't have to have an alternate character. Why would you think that? For example: I have a few alts, but I never play them, thus I don't have to have them.

[Coreldan]

That's why "requiring", not requiring :D

I was mainly referring to that having to have multiple chars to do multiple roles isn't really quite cool either, at least not for that many.

[ShowNoMercy]

The only real way to keep people from mastering it all i think is to make it so there is so much to learn and it take so long to learn that its impossible. Much like EVE just to be a proficient miner it takes probably six months time to learn all those skills and then there is still many more mining skills to learn after that. I think SOE took a close look at how EVE did their skill learning set up, we should be ok.

Thats what makes eve so crappy and PS1 so good. The skill gap between a PS1 newb and vet is simply a matter of in game play time and experience. The gap between an eve newb and vet depends on how far apart they started playing and will always exist.

[Rbstr]

You haven't played EVE much at all if you think the Skill system is what keeps newer players behind vets.

Hint: "It's the Economy, Stupid."

[Headrattle]

That's why "requiring", not requiring :D

I was mainly referring to that having to have multiple chars to do multiple roles isn't really quite cool either, at least not for that many.
I like it. I would prefer having multiple characters to being able for one character to do everything. This isn't a normal FPS. This is an MMOFPS. Because of that, you need to fill your role better then you could with an FPS. With the old cert system you start to fill the role you liked playing the most because you had to choose what role you liked playing. Sure, you could swap characters, but it wasn't easy and it wasn't necessary. You liked flying, you flew. You liked being infantry, you were infantry. Over time, you could do some other things but not everything. This is much different then allowing everyone to fill any role, just not as well as their main role. Say I am usually an infiltrator and have advancement in that area. But it comes time when the battle would sway to the point that I would be better used if I was a Max. So, I become a max when it was needed. One of the things you are losing is teamwork and a reliance on other players with different styles or specializations. Instead of "We need MAXs at Laka" it will be "Change into MAXs at Laka." You lose some of that tactical element as weell as character development when everyone can do everything.

[kaffis]

This is a really good point. If anyone can switch at any time they'll go with whatever the best class is for the situation. I'd like to hear how they plan on addressing that.
Time-based skill tree training.

Sure, in an indoor fight, everybody will be in the HA role or whatever. But only 4 people out of 20 will be heavily invested in it. So you've got 16 people grunting around at 100-105%, and 4 people grunting around at 115-120%. I'll take that. Especially when you consider that it'll be 4 people grunting at 115%+ HA, 3 people Medicing at 115%+, 2 people Engineering at 115%+, one or two people Commanding at 115%+, 2 people in MAX suits at 115%+, and then the remaining 8 people (who are heavily invested in vehicles and piloting) HA grunting at 105%.

Honestly? I like this better than a restrictive number of certs in old-school PS1 days. Because now, my whole two-squad platoon is working together inside, instead of the tank driver(s) and his gunners sitting in the courtyard while the reaver pilot(s) just roam all over the damn place because they weren't certed for indoor combat.

[EASyEightyEight]

There will be the level of flexibility you fear, but not everyone will be fighting on equal terms. One guy may be going heavy weapons, but he has no training in their use, where as the other guy has been focusing almost solely on heavy weapons, so he's just plain better with all of his customization options.

Also, if your side is bringing in a fleet of reavers, and you expect the other side to bring AV out the wazoo to counter it, grab a damn sniper rifle/machine gun and pick them off. If one side fails to cover for an allies weakness, they will fail. The class numbers will balance themselves out naturally or the lemmings will suffer defeat after miserable defeat. PS2 won't just be a simple game of rock, paper, scissors, it will be a game where you have to play your rock, paper, and scissors correctly against the other guy's rock, paper, and scissors or you will lose. Expect a lot of players dedicated to their role as there will likely more often than not always be a situation where they're needed.

[Bags]

I'm hoping that you can't have it; with it you are too versatile and independent which is what the devs seem to be putting in the class system to restrict.

The point of this thread is that I am worried about PS2 being too restrictive, making you pick only one of those 4 roles in any life. I want a mid point; one where you can have a support tool (eg medic or engy), but also a particular weapon (eg HA or AV), while having a certain armour (eg Agile or Rexo).

"You're too independent"
*Bags constantly squaded with 4 - 5+ people back in the day*

You were saying?

And if we limit certs where I cannot have any vehicles, hacking, or improved certs I DO NOT SEE WHAT IS WRONG WITH HAVING HA / AV / MED / ENG. I am a self-sustaining indoor grunt. Okay, now I need transportation. I need people to hack doors for me. I'm mildly effective at outdoor combat. I can benefit from a heavily specc'd medic.

Where is the problem? Where is the elimination of teamwork? There's no need for a class system when their old system worked fine.

[EASyEightyEight]

And if we limit certs where I cannot have any vehicles, hacking, or improved certs I DO NOT SEE WHAT IS WRONG WITH HAVING HA / AV / MED / ENG. I am a self-sustaining indoor grunt.

Y'see, THAT's the problem. No one is supposed to be completely self-sustaining in any one role. To some degree maybe you can make a recovery in between fire fights, but you'll want someone dedicated to healing you and someone else dedicated to patching up your armor for any real foray into enemy territory.

They also want everyone to have some form of quick transportation from fight to fight, though with the front line being where ever your forces are clashing with the enemy, as opposed to simply within the sphere of influence around a base or tower, vehicle transportation seems only necessary for getting to a battle once, then following through until you're ready to log off.

[Baron]

Thats what makes eve so crappy and PS1 so good. The skill gap between a PS1 newb and vet is simply a matter of in game play time and experience. The gap between an eve newb and vet depends on how far apart they started playing and will always exist.

I believe devs also said that no matter what, the maximum difference between a BR Awesome veteran and a guy logging in for the first time will be 15%-20%.

To me this is more balanced than it is now, with free REXO / 3 implant slots / etc... I love the fact that a BR1 can engage and possible win against a BR40, I don't think the devs will mess with that success chance very much.

[Vancha]

Thats what makes eve so crappy and PS1 so good. The skill gap between a PS1 newb and vet is simply a matter of in game play time and experience. The gap between an eve newb and vet depends on how far apart they started playing and will always exist.

Newb: I shot you plentiful times, Veteran. How is it your body does not lay at my feet?!

Vet: I had Personal Shield, defenseless newbie. It drains my stamina instead of my mortality, so that I might survive to fight another day!

Newb: How might I obtain such a mighty tool, oh distinguished Veteran of war?

Vet: From the depositories that imbue super powers at battle ranks 6, 12 and 18!

[Aractain]

"You're too independent"
*Bags constantly squaded with 4 - 5+ people back in the day*

You were saying?

And if we limit certs where I cannot have any vehicles, hacking, or improved certs I DO NOT SEE WHAT IS WRONG WITH HAVING HA / AV / MED / ENG. I am a self-sustaining indoor grunt. Okay, now I need transportation. I need people to hack doors for me. I'm mildly effective at outdoor combat. I can benefit from a heavily specc'd medic.

Where is the problem? Where is the elimination of teamwork? There's no need for a class system when their old system worked fine.

Its not really about teamwork from my point of view. Its about gameplay. If everyone is self suffient there isn't as much variety in gameplay. The devs literally can't add more features to the game for the fear of overpowering the super soliders.

Your setup is 3 major areas of gameplay all in one with no disadvantages. A good game design gives you meaningful choices with trade offs and because you can't do everything you can make everything more powerful and more fun - putting more depth into each skillset.

[ShowNoMercy]

I believe devs also said that no matter what, the maximum difference between a BR Awesome veteran and a guy logging in for the first time will be 15%-20%.

To me this is more balanced than it is now, with free REXO / 3 implant slots / etc... I love the fact that a BR1 can engage and possible win against a BR40, I don't think the devs will mess with that success chance very much.

So you dont think there will be goodies along the tree that award benefits like implants in PS1? the devs only made comment to the overall dmg output. There could still be skills later up the tree that make things unbalanced in a vet's favor.

Additionally, In PS1 you could play for 6months and get br25 pretty easy. In PS2 I fear that no matter how long I play, if i started a year behind you I will always be a year behind you in skills.

[Bags]

Y'see, THAT's the problem. No one is supposed to be completely self-sustaining in any one role.

Um... tank driver + engineer = completely self sufficient. Wondering, who says no one is supposed to be completely self sufficient at ONE ROLE?

Its not really about teamwork from my point of view. Its about gameplay. If everyone is self suffient there isn't as much variety in gameplay. The devs literally can't add more features to the game for the fear of overpowering the super soliders.

Your setup is 3 major areas of gameplay all in one with no disadvantages. A good game design gives you meaningful choices with trade offs and because you can't do everything you can make everything more powerful and more fun - putting more depth into each skillset.

So I just spent all of my certs on HA/AV/MED/ENG, how does adding more certification options overpower me, exactly? I'm out of certs!

No major disadvantages? I have no transportation. I have no hacking ability. I have limited medical abilities. I have limited engineering abilities. I can't snipe. I can't area deny via special assault.

I fill one role: soldier. What is wrong with this? (BTW, what is this third area of gameplay that I can fill? I can fight indoors and outdoors... that's two. And the second a half decent tank driver comes by I'm dead outdoors)

It's like you guys hate any one who has a different playstyle than you or something. There's no need to change something you don't like. I don't like maxes but you don't see me campaigning to get them removed, because I understand other people like to do other things and I'm okay with that. instead of nerfing the individual how about we BUFF teamplay?

[Aractain]

Im not talking about PS1 so certs never run out - its just time. And because of that there is better upgrade options than PS1 had (more certs which totaly broke their model).

I love all playstyles, I want more and I hope the devs support more than the original PS. That wont happen if the most obvious and easiest choice is the one you mentioned.

[Bags]

Im not talking about PS1 so certs never run out - its just time. And because of that there is better upgrade options than PS1 had (more certs which totaly broke their model).

I love all playstyles, I want more and I hope the devs support more than the original PS. That wont happen if the most obvious and easiest choice is the one you mentioned.

Why is it the easiest choice? Substantiate your arguments, please! I don't think everyone wants to be a grunt like I do.

[MasterChief096]

You know Bags has said a lot of things on these forums I don't agree with, but I'm on his side with this one. If he is spec'd the way he describes he'll suck at every other role out there compared to those who are spec'd in those roles.

IMO, I'm not a fan of the new class system with time unlocks and all that "new FPS gamer person" jazz. If I create a character and want to cert Reaver, I want to go fight 5 year players with Reaver and not even have to worry about a 20% advantage they have over me. I don't care that they want to appeal to an MMORPG crowd and that's why that have somewhat of a power achievement for characters. PlanetSide is an MMOFPS, so I say die-hard MMORPG players can go play MMORPGs. There was NEVER a place in PlanetSide for power upgrades. The sound of, "but your reaver will be more maneuverable, durable, and powerful" just scares the living hell out of me.

The beauty of PS is that if I wanted to go from playing a heavy infantry type character to a full vehicles type person, I merely had to spend the time forgetting certs for a few days and then re-spec, or use a forget all.

Now, in PS2, it sounds like right from the beginning, players and outfits are going to have to specialize in only ONE role or suffer being farmed by a reaver outfit that has been a reaver outfit since day 1.

If you think that players and outfits who specialize in certain roles should be awarded for doing so, think about THIS: Why not their reward be the experience and skill they get from USING these damn roles, instead of unlockable upgrades and improvements that give them a power advantage. If you're a reaver outfit and solely a reaver outfit, you're going to be BAD ASS in the air simply because you always do it, your players are used to flying them, and you've developed your own tactics.

PS2 doesn't need power upgrades, it simply needs options like the first game, options that take time to switch between.

[Bags]

The cert system was one things of Planetside that really was 100% perfectly brilliant until they gave us a million cert points.

[Vancha]

I've said it before but I'll say it again. The main challenge for the class system is giving individual classes enough mind-blowingly cool stuff to make up for losing the versatility and personalization of the cert system. If the class system doesn't do that, it's a failure, because it'll be a step back from a game that was released 8 years ago.

Even the best versions of the class system in other games pales in comparison to the certification system (so long as people aren't given too many certs), thus a class system starts off already being on the back foot by comparison, so it'll be interesting to see what new improvements and additions they plan to incorporate into their class system to bring it up to the same level as certifications.

I'm honestly looking forward to it.

[Headrattle]

Your setup is 3 major areas of gameplay all in one with no disadvantages. A good game design gives you meaningful choices with trade offs and because you can't do everything you can make everything more powerful and more fun - putting more depth into each skillset.

I wouldn't say "no disadvantages" exactly. Less ammo, no vehicles, ect. Having three major set ups just means you are a little more flexible. PS1 allowed you to use other certs if you wanted to, but you couldn't have all of the certs.

Now, contrast that with the class system... Not only can you be anything you want with the click of an equipment terminal, but your main class is up to 20% stronger, faster, or tougher. How is that an improvement? If you think that those that have been playing for a while have an advantage now, then given how they describe it, the class system will be worse.

[Aractain]

Yeah I see what your saying.

The problem is back in PS1 I felt if I didn't choose the HA/Med/Engy/Mossie/AV etc then I wasn't a) useful enough unless I was REALLY good at something or b) going to have much fun because everyone else seemed to choose that so everyone was the same (or was a MAX).

I see the limiting of capability a way to 'solve' that problem by breaking things up.

[Bags]

And I think that's a poor reason. People will min/max regardless.

[Headrattle]

Yeah I see what your saying.

The problem is back in PS1 I felt if I didn't choose the HA/Med/Engy/Mossie/AV etc then I wasn't a) useful enough unless I was REALLY good at something or b) going to have much fun because everyone else seemed to choose that so everyone was the same (or was a MAX).

I see the limiting of capability a way to 'solve' that problem by breaking things up.

Never did that to me. I never felt pressured to fill that role. I am a tank driver mainly. But my loadout allows me to assist outside of the tank as well. I am a tank driver/medic/engineer/hacker. These are all support roles. Could I get HA? Sure. But that would mean that I would have considerable less inventory space because of that damned gun. And thus I would have to lose either Ammo, ability, or I am unable to drive my tank.

[Bags]

Never did that to me. I never felt pressured to fill that role. I am a tank driver mainly. But my loadout allows me to assist outside of the tank as well. I am a tank driver/medic/engineer/hacker. These are all support roles. Could I get HA? Sure. But that would mean that I would have considerable less inventory space because of that damned gun. And thus I would have to lose either Ammo, ability, or I am unable to drive my tank.

The only reason I can think of that you would feel "pressured" to cert HA is everything of importance, capture wise, happens indoors.

With PS2 that's not the case.

[Aractain]

Its not so much pressure to fill the role, just that is like a constant reminder that you arn't playing the game 'correctly' because your not getting the best KPM or KDR or whatever (and dieing a lot more than others - but that might just be because I suck -_-).

I enjoyed AV/MA/Engy/Adv Medic/Tanks/Buggys/AA mostly which meant I was bait to the reavers and mossie when outdoors (even when AA lol!) and bait to the HA indoors without offering much to the team because im running a 'subpar' build. (That was a WoW joke, I really ment that my fun is tempered by the not fun of not having a real role in the game).

I don't think healing is going to be so important this time from the sound of it so losing basic med is fine. Will we have armour as infantry? Will engineer types be the only way to repair MAXs?

I don't see the support stuff as meaning as much or meaning MORE since it isn't as common. So for me it comes down to guns. Having the ability with one loadout (PS1 example) to shoot infantry, MAXs, ground vehicles and air vehicles all in one loadout and all at optimum rate is bad design.

Would you care so much if you still had the ability to heal and repair somehow with weapon roles limited?


(Wish I was better at explaining myself)

[Headrattle]

Its not so much pressure to fill the role, just that is like a constant reminder that you arn't playing the game 'correctly' because your not getting the best KPM or KDR or whatever (and dieing a lot more than others - but that might just be because I suck -_-).

Never really pressured that way either. Can there be balance? Yes. HA can be more expensive in my opinion. Improvements? Of course. But it just looks to me like the Class system is going to make everything you guys complain about, worse.

I don't see the support stuff as meaning as much or meaning MORE since it isn't as common. So for me it comes down to guns. Having the ability with one loadout (PS1 example) to shoot infantry, MAXs, ground vehicles and air vehicles all in one loadout and all at optimum rate is bad design.


Define optimum. Because you aren't doing it at an "optimum rate." You need a lot of inventory space for all that. And at the time, Rexo made it even more expensive to run. You could do that, but at the failing of support roles. Meaning you had to depend on others, or die frequently. That isn't "optimum" in my opinion.

[EASyEightyEight]

Um... tank driver + engineer = completely self sufficient. Wondering, who says no one is supposed to be completely self sufficient at ONE ROLE?



Wait... I'm expected to drive AND gun for my tank simultaneously? This is news to me.

'Course, we're also assuming in PS2 I can bring some form of repair tool for my tank. Haven't yet seen any definitive evidence of a "pilot" class (or any class for that matter) yet, just mention of certs that help work a tank.

I'm looking forward to the class system. I'm looking forward to people needing to choose between their HA that fires mini-nukes or healing themselves and turning into unstoppable killing machines... with assault rifles. For the record, I'll be the guy with the medical applicator, probably with certs to buff your HP and reload speed too. That's another potential perk of the system that would be way OP if one guy could do it all.

Teamwork is NOT "hey, can I get a ride to the next battle?" That's hitch-hiking.

[Bags]

Wait... I'm expected to drive AND gun for my tank simultaneously? This is news to me.

'Course, we're also assuming in PS2 I can bring some form of repair tool for my tank. Haven't yet seen any definitive evidence of a "pilot" class (or any class for that matter) yet, just mention of certs that help work a tank.

I'm looking forward to the class system. I'm looking forward to people needing to choose between their HA that fires mini-nukes or healing themselves and turning into unstoppable killing machines... with assault rifles. For the record, I'll be the guy with the medical applicator, probably with certs to buff your HP and reload speed too. That's another potential perk of the system that would be way OP if one guy could do it all.

Teamwork is NOT "hey, can I get a ride to the next battle?" That's hitch-hiking.

I really don't see why I can't have a shitty medapp while you get a bitching medapp. You do realize I'm not an unstoppable killing machine because I can't heal incombat, right? Right?!??!

I guess you haven't played planetside since you don't know what the lightning is.

[EASyEightyEight]

I really don't see why I can't have a shitty medapp while you get a bitching medapp. You do realize I'm not an unstoppable killing machine because I can't heal incombat, right? Right?!??!

I guess you haven't played planetside since you don't know what the lightning is.

Cannon fodder to anyone that can actually aim a rocket, or a real tank cannon. Thing is a rolling coffin if there aren't bigger targets for the prey to worry about.

And the issue is out of combat healing, EI: take a few hits, duck behind cover, completely recover, rinse and repeat. This is done ad infinitum in PS1, and no one needs a partner because of it.

[Bags]

Cannon fodder to anyone that can actually aim a rocket, or a real tank cannon. Thing is a rolling coffin if there aren't bigger targets for the prey to worry about.

And the issue is out of combat healing, EI: take a few hits, duck behind cover, completely recover, rinse and repeat. This is done ad infinitum in PS1, and no one needs a partner because of it.

The lightning is a fine vehicle and I always rolled with teammates back in the day despite being a "super soldier" so I 'm still not sure what your point is.

Can I solo efficiently? To an extent. Do I work better with teamwork? Absolutely.

[EASyEightyEight]

There's always strength in numbers. No denying that.

You're also forgetting the long term problem with one role having access to a med app, engineering kit, and HA/AV: PS2's own cert system. Sure, one year in, maybe you've finally mastered the minigun, and it now spews rocklets, hundreds upon hundreds of laser guided rocklets, but then what's year 2? You'll eventually have a bitchin' med app too, just as I will eventually have a bitchin' minigun.

Classes are here for power control. No one person is supposed to be too powerful. They mentioned a 15-20% difference as their plan. That equation most likely includes class restrictions. A guy with a souped up HA and a souped up med-app on the same class is probably going to be bigger than 15-20%, unless the certs are so underwhelming no one gives a flying **** for them anyway.

On the note of the long term... newbs may never catch up, especially the later they join, but at least due to the class system, they won't simply be mice against 5 year old lions.

And I've only feared a lightning when I'm stupid enough to be caught alone by one. Most of them can't drive and gun at the same time (highlighting it's true weakness.) Mad props to the pros whom can, whom seem to be extremely rare.

[Bags]

There's always strength in numbers. No denying that.

You're also forgetting the long term problem with one role having access to a med app, engineering kit, and HA/AV: PS2's own cert system. Sure, one year in, maybe you've finally mastered the minigun, and it now spews rocklets, hundreds upon hundreds of laser guided rocklets, but then what's year 2? You'll eventually have a bitchin' med app too, just as I will eventually have a bitchin' minigun.


... then they simply limit how many certs you can have ala PS1? This is why classes are bad and the cert system in PS1 was perfect.

[EASyEightyEight]

Uh no... but that's my opinion, as is yours for you. I'd rather they restrict what certs I can bring with me at any given moment instead demand I log out and back in with a new character.

They want to encourage teamwork. As for your argument to reduce cert points just like in the "good ol' days" here's the original 23 cert point cap allocation:

Med-assault: 2
Med-app: 3
Engineer: 3
Heavy-A: 4
A-Vehicle: 3
Rexo : 3
ATV : 2 (it seriously used to be 2 certs for just one variant)

There was more than enough room (3 whole points!) to spare back then for another weapon cert, or even 1 of many vehicles, or even enhancing a support role. Clearly, all these "extra" certs aren't the problem. They never were. They just allow more free-form choice without having to roll an alt. There was always enough to pull off the basic grunt setup we see today and still get around in a bloody reaver/MBT if you so chose. The restriction you're asking for, we'll be looking at 10-12 cert points tops for everybody, then they can either decert/recert or roll an alt to experience other roles.

I can't imagine that will turn out well in the long term.

[Aractain]

The core of my hope for PS is no one class can take on infantry, vehicles, aircraft and MAXs all at the same time. Maybe choose two or one really well.

Im imagning HA + rocklet or MA + AV but not HA + AV. Maybe they break up AV into AV and AA also who knows. Maybe there wont be many close in corridors and things so HA isn't as uesful (probably will be though).

[Redshift]

The core of my hope for PS is no one class can take on infantry, vehicles, aircraft and MAXs all at the same time. Maybe choose two or one really well.
If your infantry can't take on MAXs and infantry at the same time i'll be sitting in a MAX waiting to chew everything up...... seriously people complained about MAXs when every grunt had some form of AV, you take that away and it'll be a MAX fest

I'm hoping the classes are along the lines of the; medic being an ADV med with MA, the eng being a CE with glue gun and MA, the grunt being able to heal/rep and HA MA AV sniper, the cloaker having pistols and hacking, and a pilot having MA and glue gun.

I honestly think taking the basic grunts ability to grunt away from him will destroy the game

[Aractain]

Umm the point is that people will choose between them. There will be people with anti-MAX alongside people without - thats the whole point. If EVERY infantry is effective vs every other infantry/MAX its just a game of Quake.

[exLupo]

If your infantry can't take on MAXs and infantry at the same time

At the same time in that post meant using the same cert build and without having to visit a terminal. Back in beta, when the cert tree were very restrictive and nobody was br18, players had to specialize. You'd get medics with some MA and Agile (you had to buy it) or pilots or tankers or HA users or hackers or... Now you get ha/av/eng/a.med/a.hack do-all character. The game was reduced form a multitude of specializations to two. Indoor and Outdoor. Everything else is irrelevant or you're intentionally gimping yourself.

PS2, form every indication, will somewhere between BF2142 and EVE. Everyone will be able to perform every basic role at a basic level. Say in 2142 if you spent a lot of time in Engineer you could do all the fancy Engi tricks but if your certs were irrelevant you could still change to Assault or Support, untrained, and roll in with your buddies. From the dev panel, PS2 will be similar in a skilling standpoint. And, hopefuly, the trees will be time-intensive enough to make specializing in medic or hacker or transport actually mean something because, right now in PS1, those specializations don't exist anymore.

As anyone who has -actually- played EVE can confirm, new players can get up to 90% operating capacity in a wide variety of boats in short order. The specialist boats take much more time and that time limits your ability to do other things. PS2 seems to be taking a similar tack. Everyone will be functional indoors or out but if you want to do anything well or use anything fancy (see: example of MAX as an offshoot of HA) then you'll have to invest time and your supersoldier potential will decrease accordingly. Unless they totally screw up the xp curve, nobody will ever be able to do everything and specialists will actually be important this time around.

[Redshift]

. You'd get medics with some MA and Agile (you had to buy it) or pilots or tankers or HA users or hackers or... Now you get ha/av/eng/a.med/a.hack do-all character. The game was reduced form a multitude of specializations to two. Indoor and Outdoor.

basic med and eng is not a specialisation, ADV med CE and adv hacker are what i would term specialisations and you couldn't pick up those while still having all the main grunting certs (excluding when they fucked up the br cap)

and tbh that made for good game play, i personally had myself pure grunt at br 20, i used to have to drive an atv around since i couldn't afford a mossie :P and when we did organised outfit stuff i dropped my AV for adv med, and others drops certs for what they needed for the night.

If only the med can heal people then the grunt will effectivly be dead, because without a shadow of a doubt a med with a MA will be a better killer than a grunt with HA who can't heal himself

MA/ENG HA AV is not a super soldier it's a basic grunt

[exLupo]

MA/ENG HA AV is not a super soldier it's a basic grunt

Any single unit that can realistically solo engage any other unit and not rely on anyone else to fix themselves up afterwards is a super soldier. Like I said. It's the de facto indoor build. The only one worth having if you aren't in a vehicle.

That's a problem.

[Redshift]

Any single unit that can realistically solo engage any other unit and not rely on anyone else to fix themselves up afterwards is a super soldier. Like I said. It's the de facto indoor build. The only one worth having if you aren't in a vehicle.

That's a problem.

So whats the grunt suppose to be able to do then? atm you seem to want it to be a guy with a HA weapon.

That's fine but in that case a medic shouldn't be allowed to shoot. Killing people is for a specialised grunt role, medics are for healing....

That obviously makes for bad gameplay, if a grunt can't heal, but a medic can still kill people everyone will just play medics and grunts are a dead class.

With a lower ttk and headshots with MA the gap between HA and MA is not going to be sufficient to justify making HA users worthless in every other sense

[exLupo]

So whats the grunt suppose to be able to do then? atm you seem to want it to be a guy with a HA weapon.

That's fine but in that case a medic shouldn't be allowed to shoot. Killing people is for a specialised grunt role, medics are for healing....

Rexo + HA, at one time, had your cert points getting thin. That doesn't mean A.Med + MA was impossible. I'm saying what I said I was saying.

One unit that can do everything is bad.
Cross unit inter-dependency is good.

PS1 had the second before launch. Now it has the former. Before launch, players had to depend on each other to perform tasks. Now they just depend on each other to shoot the same direction. The game has, and I hate to say this, been dumbed down. Multiple specializations does more for game diversity than the current two that PS1 has.

edit: Without having any idea how HA even functions in PS2, we can't begin to speculate about the MA/HA relationship.

[Redshift]

edit: Without having any idea how HA even functions in PS2, we can't begin to speculate about the MA/HA relationship.

I've read somewhere that HA can't headshot since mcg would be nuts with them

The fact is waiting on others does not work 100% of the time, i've sat outside a tower on a noob for 3-4 mins spamming WNR before, then i gave up dropped a nade on myself and respawned, that's not fun.
The reason people used med/eng themselves was because others can't be relied on, when it could be relied on it was much better to use a dedicated med eng, i.e during an outfit gen hold. If you make it impossible to play the game without a group you'll lose subscribers, there's no way you can argue against that point

[Aractain]

If you make it impossible to play the game without a group you'll lose subscribers

Totaly true. But even back in BF2 the medic/support was heavily used because it was well rewarded and had enough firepower to be fun. Engineer on the other hand was barely rewarded at all and as a result was absent most of the time. (AT and engineer was different in BF2 wasnt it? I played a lot of AT - usually the only one).

Faster paced gameplay mean suicideing and coming back will be more acceptable if no one is there to support you IF there is no self healing (which we don't know).

[exLupo]

I've read somewhere that HA can't headshot since mcg would be nuts with them

The fact is waiting on others does not work 100% of the time, i've sat outside a tower on a noob for 3-4 mins spamming WNR before, then i gave up dropped a nade on myself and respawned, that's not fun.
The reason people used med/eng themselves was because others can't be relied on, when it could be relied on it was much better to use a dedicated med eng, i.e during an outfit gen hold.

1) By no quirk of design, every unit, regardless of certs, spawns with a REK. Not having one means you're choosing to not be able to perform basic hacking. Not every unit spawns with med or engi tools.

2) rexo/ha/med/eng is not the same as rexo/ha/av/a.med/a.hack/engi. Neither of those are the same as rexo/ha/medkit. Back in the days before super soldiers, people had plenty of room in their packs for medkits. Take out the HA, Med and Engi (rek and grenade or pistol move to small slots) and you too will be able to partially recover after a fight without depending on anyone else.

If you make it impossible to play the game without a group you'll lose subscribers, there's no way you can argue against that point

A decade of other mmos and shooters begs to differ. If pure player numbers were the only evidence necessary, I have only to point to TF2 which currently peaks at 80,000 unique players per day. As PS2 has been discussed as some flavor of F2P (no-sub w/ box I assume) game, I find the analogy quite appropriate.

Purely in shooters besides TF2 we've got Tribes and, for a even bigger impact, the entire Battlefield series. Role inter-dependency is critical in those games.

[Redshift]

i'd like to see

grunts with basic med and eng

Medics with faster med adv med med station deployment maybe some stam recovery gun/term with MA

eng with all the current CE and glue gun with MA

pilot with glue guns with MA

infil with hacking boomers and pistols

[Redshift]

A decade of other mmos and shooters begs to differ. If pure player numbers were the only evidence necessary, I have only to point to TF2 which currently peaks at 80,000 unique players per day. As PS2 has been discussed as some flavor of F2P (no-sub w/ box I assume) game, I find the analogy quite appropriate.

how many players do you get in a TF2 map? because i've run across a CY and lost 80% of my life to stray rounds before.

also i'm not advocating HA REXO Med ENG AV ADV Med ADV Hack CE mossie grunts...... i'm advocating REXO Med and Eng and two guns (in this case HA and AV) which like i've said before is what br20 gave you, it's not a super soldier it's a basic grunt class

[Aractain]

Don't forget implants. Maybe they will make regenration implant really awesome if there is no self healing?

[Redshift]

Don't forget implants. Maybe they will make regenration implant really awesome if there is no self healing?
Maybe, but you spend so much time jammered anyway

[Vancha]

i'd like to see

grunts with basic med and eng

Medics with faster med adv med med station deployment maybe some stam recovery gun/term with MA

eng with all the current CE and glue gun with MA

pilot with glue guns with MA

infil with hacking boomers and pistols
I get the feeling you're contextualizing PS1 far too heavily (as everyone else was, including myself, before FanFaire).

The benefit to classes over certs means we should be seeing things like "medics", "engineers" and "infiltrators" being far cooler and far more elaborate than the things you're giving them from Planetside. Who knows what sources of healing will be available that we aren't even aware of? Using scenarios of sitting outside a tower spamming VNR is positively pointless until we know more about PS2.

[Redshift]

I get the feeling you're contextualizing PS1 far too heavily (as everyone else was, including myself, before FanFaire).

The benefit to classes over certs means we should be seeing things like "medics", "engineers" and "infiltrators" being far cooler and far more elaborate than the things you're giving them from Planetside. Who knows what sources of healing will be available that we aren't even aware of? Using scenarios of sitting outside a tower spamming VNR is positively pointless until we know more about PS2.

i agree but considering what we have to go on atm i feel its valid to bring it up, if you can't play without a medic, what happens when you don't have one. Thats what my main issue is, and it's a problem that blights mmorpg's.

[DviddLeff]

Well you don't have to play with a medic in your squad if you want to be stubborn, but your staying power in the field will be much less.

Having a balanced squad will be much more important in PS2 than it was in PS, because of the limitations of the class system.

That in my eyes is a good thing, it encourages teamwork and rewards players that put some thought into their game, rather than every infantryman simply going HA, AV, Engy and Medic.

[Malorn]

Well you don't have to play with a medic in your squad if you want to be stubborn, but your staying power in the field will be much less.

Having a balanced squad will be much more important in PS2 than it was in PS, because of the limitations of the class system.

That in my eyes is a good thing, it encourages teamwork and rewards players that put some thought into their game, rather than every infantryman simply going HA, AV, Engy and Medic.

This. Also there is implant healing. So medical isnt needed to heal. Its just slower, which is fine. You must make tradeoff decisions. If you want staying power, play a medic.

[Bing]

The cert system in Planetside 1 was great, as long as there were limits on the maximum amount of certs you could have.

I'm wondering now, if the class system will have any maximum limits at all, besides just the time it takes to train the different skills. I'm hoping that there will be some kind of absolute limit so you could, for example max out two or three classes, or generalize in a few classes. If you wanted to switch classes you would start training them, and another class would start untraining. The class system so far (What we know about it of course) still sounds like we'll eventually have super soldiers who can do anything, except this time around they'll need access to an equipment terminal to do it.

I'm in support of any combinations you could want, even HA/med/eng as long as that's all you're limited to.

[Aractain]

The hard limit is time - and unlike PS1 its self balanceing, the best a class can ever be is what the devs design it to be. It can't ever cross class boundrys and gain SUPER POWERS!

[Redshift]

Well you don't have to play with a medic in your squad if you want to be stubborn, but your staying power in the field will be much less.


Now you're being silly, ofc i'd love to have a medic in the squad, but if the game is unplayable without a medic then there's going to be issues.

on another note what do you think the medic is suppose to do, is he suppose to have the med app out constantly spamming heals on everything? if thats the case i think we'll have the same problem all the trinity mmorpgs have, and thats lack of healers because it's a dull playstyle

[Vancha]

Now you're being silly, ofc i'd love to have a medic in the squad, but if the game is unplayable without a medic then there's going to be issues.

on another note what do you think the medic is suppose to do, is he suppose to have the med app out constantly spamming heals on everything? if thats the case i think we'll have the same problem all the trinity mmorpgs have, and thats lack of healers because it's a dull playstyle

Q: If I have heavy assault(example) will I be able to heal myself at all, or am I 100% dependent on a medic / engineer??

Matt: you'll probably have at least some capacity to heal yourself, but this is something we're actively designing and iterating at the moment.

From the Reddit Q&A.

Also, medics with jetpacks.

[DviddLeff]

Now you're being silly, ofc i'd love to have a medic in the squad, but if the game is unplayable without a medic then there's going to be issues.

on another note what do you think the medic is suppose to do, is he suppose to have the med app out constantly spamming heals on everything? if thats the case i think we'll have the same problem all the trinity mmorpgs have, and thats lack of healers because it's a dull playstyle

Never said it would be unplayable, just you wouldn't be able to pick your guys up off the ground once you get into a fight, or be 100% for the next fight. Same as if you decided not to bring along a hacker, or anyone with AV, AA, etc you would be screwed when it came to that situation.

Notice that even in class based FPS games (ie Battlefield) medics have guns; and with lower TTKs overall they are perfectly playable as its a much more even playing field. Sure the guys with the equivalent of HA will have an advantage, but the medics weapons will give him a damned good chance of victory, if he has the skill.

[EASyEightyEight]

Q: If I have heavy assault(example) will I be able to heal myself at all, or am I 100% dependent on a medic / engineer??

Matt: you'll probably have at least some capacity to heal yourself, but this is something we're actively designing and iterating at the moment.

^^^This. Think med-kits and as mentioned, the recovery implant no one EVER uses because (surprise) everyone has a med-app. The emergency tools for a foot-soldier without a medic nearby.

[exLupo]

Now you're being silly, ofc i'd love to have a medic in the squad, but if the game is unplayable without a medic then there's going to be issues.

Unless Med tools are relegated to advanced classes (which I doubt), the problem with not having a medic in the squad is one that would come down to the players. The impression I'm getting is that if your squad needs a medic, someone swaps kits to a medic. Your MA skill would still apply to the MA the medic is using and whatever other cross-class gear as well.

They've stated plainly enough that people will be able to fill basic roles, training or no. If players choose to not fill those roles, that's on them.