Sniper round scaling effectiveness.

[Huma]

A friend of mine is an ardent sniper in games and is an Air Force sniper irl. His biggest complaint is how ineffective sniper rifles are at range. I was thinking that a way to reward snipers for using their weapon correctly would be to scale up the damage the further the round travels. So at medium to short range it would do normal damage.
But if the sniper is able to hit someone at long to extreme range the sniper could potentially one shot someone. Now before you go off remember that Sony is going to simulate each round fired so to get these long range kill shots the sniper will have to be very good. The distance would have to depend on how big a hex is. If their fairly small then one end of the hex to the other or if their larger half a hex away.
Thise snipers good enough to make these kinds of shots should be rewarded with a bonus to their effectiveness.

[Zulthus]

I actually like this idea. It would cut down on the snipers that try to headshot 24/7 at close range and make the people who actually love sniping truly skilled at it. I know plenty of people who take a bolt driver into a base and shoot at point blank for easy kills.

[tjmonk15]

/sign

This is a great idea, reward SKILL not the weapon. Hitting long range shots in PS1 is hard as hell with the lag. And tbh, this is how it works IRL too. Shooting a sniper at close range does hell a lot of damage, but it doesn't do the maximum damage til the round has traveled a good distance and gained its speed/momentum.

[Cere]

/sign

This is a great idea, reward SKILL not the weapon. Hitting long range shots in PS1 is hard as hell with the lag. And tbh, this is how it works IRL too. Shooting a sniper at close range does hell a lot of damage, but it doesn't do the maximum damage til the round has traveled a good distance and gained its speed/momentum.
This isn't how it works in real life. It's not like bullets need a running start before they hurt people. From the moment they leave the gun, bullets lose velocity from air friction.

As for a game, while it would perhaps be fun for the sniper when he kills someone from across the continent, it's not much fun for the target. Consider Flails in PS1; there's no counter to them aside from suicidal hackers. The same would be true of snipers from miles away. Skill in real-life sniping doesn't translate to the game environment. In real-life, snipers have to control breathing and hand tremors. In computer games, it can be controlled by mouse sensitivity.

While having real-life elements in game can make them more believable, they're never going to translate well into a game environment. Otherwise, Reavers would fly at 1000 feet per second and an artillery shell that explodes near infantry would deafen the character for life.

It's all about game balance, and giving characters the ability to instantly kill someone else from the complete other side of the game field is out of balance.

[Nitro]

A solution might present itself with a sniper rifle that is fitted with a scope that must be used to fire the weapon (no shooting from the hip) and would have a built in safety feature to only fire when a target is confirmed by the scope. This scope would only be effective for long range targets. For instance, the scope is locked at a high telephoto focal length giving the player a very small peripheral (12x for arguments sake) and the lens of the scope would have a narrow depth of field (example - from 100 yards to infinity). Any soldier standing closer than the scope can focus on would not allow the weapon to fire, forcing the sniper to only acquire targets at a fair distance away. To make the weapon more effective, a solution could be that only one shot is required if that shot strikes the targets head.
This might even open up an important new role to accompany the sniper in the form of a spotter. A special set of binoculars could be available to a spotter that would allow them to "spot" potential targets and paint them for the sniper. These binoculars would have a much larger peripheral with zooming ability, and analyze all targets within the effective range (perhaps even have available night vision and heat signature tracing), these targets would then be communicated to the sniper scope allowing the sniper to line up multiple targets quickly without too much hunting around.

[headcrab13]

As for a game, while it would perhaps be fun for the sniper when he kills someone from across the continent, it's not much fun for the target.

It's all about game balance, and giving characters the ability to instantly kill someone else from the complete other side of the game field is out of balance.

Exactly, that's the whole point of this thread. You probably didn't see it, but the devs already confirmed that one-shot sniper kills were in the game. What the OP is proposing is to make those kills more challenging; to reward good snipers, and keep the n00blets from one-shotting your face at 15 feet out.

-HC13

[Huma]

Exactly, that's the whole point of this thread. You probably didn't see it, but the devs already confirmed that one-shot sniper kills were in the game. What the OP is proposing is to make those kills more challenging; to reward good snipers, and keep the n00blets from one-shotting your face at 15 feet out.

-HC13

Not only that but a sniper rifle is no flail and killing at range with a sniper rifle is no mean feat. You have to factor in travel time and the speed of your enemy. Not only that but if you can get a head shot from that far you DESERVE an instant kill. It's perfectly balance in that not just any sublet will be able to do it. :)

[NtrSandman]

And tbh, this is how it works IRL too. Shooting a sniper at close range does hell a lot of damage, but it doesn't do the maximum damage til the round has traveled a good distance and gained its speed/momentum.

How does the round gain any 'speed/momentum' after it has left the barrel?

[Spazmodian]

How does the round gain any 'speed/momentum' after it has left the barrel?

Magic

Planetside did sniping perfectly, do it that way again. Using the Boltdriver at close range was pure luck, you were always better off using any of the MA weapons. Hopefully the only one hit kills from infantry in the game will be against those not wearing armor(cloakers).

[exLupo]

How does the round gain any 'speed/momentum' after it has left the barrel?

Could re-****** the lore and make them gyrojets instead of huge ass conventional rounds they're using now.

I'm not a huge fan of the idea but do I like it less than sniper rifles used as point blank cannons? Dunno. I will say I don't see that very often.

[Surge72]

it doesn't do the maximum damage til the round has traveled a good distance and gained its speed/momentum.

:huh::huh::huh: ???

[exLupo]

:huh::huh::huh: ???

It's a common suggestion to stop close range gut-shot sniping. I've never actually seen it used in a game and the only way to make it work in a realistic sense is to use something based on gyrojet rounds.

They would have to be a hell of a lot better than modern gyrojets but, considering the relative lack of research time, there's probably a ton of room for improvement.

edit: And speaking of modern, there's the M107CQ, specifically designed to bring that anti-materiel weapon into urban confines.

[Senyu]

Sniper Rifles do 50% less damage within 50yds. 100% damage over 50yds. In the sniper skill tree there is a skill allowing snipers to do more than 100% damage while being X>100yds away. To use this option the sniper must be crouched/prone and must be immobile for 3 seconds.



There, snipers worse at close quarters, decent and working at longer range. And the more specced and skilled snipers receive a boost for their skills. All numbers posted are just out of thin air, they are not set and would be changed for balance reasons. Their just examples.

[exLupo]

To use this option the sniper must be crouched/prone and must be immobile for 3 seconds.

Is that immobile and then you can strafe to adjust your shot or stay immobile for the duration? A lot of game snipers use a/d strafing to tweak their shots instead of moving the mouse.

[Vancha]

You probably didn't see it, but the devs already confirmed that one-shot sniper kills were in the game.
One-shot headshots are in the game, and subject to change if they make snipers monstrous in beta.

Edit:And tbh, this is how it works IRL too. Shooting a sniper at close range does hell a lot of damage, but it doesn't do the maximum damage til the round has traveled a good distance and gained its speed/momentum.
I just wanted to quote this, because wow.

[Senyu]

Is that immobile and then you can strafe to adjust your shot or stay immobile for the duration? A lot of game snipers use a/d strafing to tweak their shots instead of moving the mouse.

Must remain stationary. Wont be able to move and use this ability

[CutterJohn]

I have no issues with sniper rifles being used at close range effectively. Maybe a stiff cof penalty to reflect that its a giant gun you're trying to whip around, but other than that, whatever. I'll get shot in the face occasionally. I'm fine with that. If he misses, he's dead. Thats how it always works with sniper rifles in games like this.

Edit: And they miss a LOT. The one thing that could require this to be changed so that headshots are arbitrarily low damage at close range is if aimhacking becomes prevalent.

One-shot headshots are in the game, and subject to change if they make snipers monstrous in beta. Or the mechanics of sniping to make headshots more difficult.


I just wanted to quote this, because wow.

Very, very wow.

[kamikava]

I have no issues with sniper rifles being used at close range effectively. Maybe a stiff cof penalty to reflect that its a giant gun you're trying to whip around, but other than that, whatever. I'll get shot in the face occasionally. I'm fine with that. If he misses, he's dead. Thats how it always works with sniper rifles in games like this.

Couldn't have said it better myself. So i won't.

[EASyEightyEight]

I think simply adding bullet drop in the same way MA will get bullet drop this time around would help differentiate skilled snipers from noob snipers, though this might be too detrimental to both it's effective range AND simply hitting anything at a good distance.

Regardless, I don't like the idea of being one-shotted by a sniper rifle. The idea the moment I crouch down to open fire with my assault rifle only to get dropped in an instant doesn't sound like much fun. Worse, it only encourages everyone to pick up sniping - especially if MA suffers the same drawbacks in PS2 as it does in PS1 (aggravatingly short ranged effectiveness for a rifle.)

[CutterJohn]

Worse, it only encourages everyone to pick up sniping - especially if MA suffers the same drawbacks in PS2 as it does in PS1 (aggravatingly short ranged effectiveness for a rifle.)

Snipers aren't very great in a combined arms game, since vehicles aren't very prone to headshots. Plus, everyone being sniper means cloakers get to have tons of fun.

Instakill headshots + Instakill backstabs = hilarity as all the lone wolf snipers get constantly harassed by the l33t ninja cloakers.

I agree with the MA thing though. It should hit out to the effective range of snipers, and not tickle when it does so.

[EASyEightyEight]

Snipers aren't very great in a combined arms game, since vehicles aren't very prone to headshots. Plus, everyone being sniper means cloakers get to have tons of fun.

Instakill headshots + Instakill backstabs = hilarity as all the lone wolf snipers get constantly harassed by the l33t ninja cloakers.

I agree with the MA thing though. It should hit out to the effective range of snipers, and not tickle when it does so.

I honestly don't know why I didn't put 2 and 2 together :doh:

But I'm still a selfish prick, and still think snipers shouldn't be able to 1 shot light armor and up. I believe the very fact that it's not a 1 shot insta-gib weapon is the reason why Planetside isn't currently chock full of snipers. If it were, we'd never see MA. Anything beyond 75m is a waste of ammo, anything below and you consider grabbing your HA.

But eh... I'm sure SOE can come up with some method to make 1HKO headshots take some effort or timing, not just waiting for a victim to crouch down and open fire. Maybe a wind system (specific to the rifle) that can effect the trajectory of the round? Might be interesting waiting for the moment there's no wind to fire or even compensating for it, but could also be disabling for any reliable sniping.

When those ninja assassins do show up, it should take only one shot to kill them in return. It's just a matter of seeing them coming... ehm... sort of.

[Huma]

Hrm I can see your points. Maybe Sony could come up with something to counter it though. I'm really not looking for something that will create he'll for grunts. I would just like to see snipers rewarded for actually using their weapon as intended. As for them not be able to hip fire very well that's a myth. At least in Planetside 1. I've seen them consistently get kills that way. Oh the joy... :)

[Erendil]

I honestly don't know why I didn't put 2 and 2 together :doh:

But I'm still a selfish prick, and still think snipers shouldn't be able to 1 shot light armor and up. I believe the very fact that it's not a 1 shot insta-gib weapon is the reason why Planetside isn't currently chock full of snipers. If it were, we'd never see MA. Anything beyond 75m is a waste of ammo, anything below and you consider grabbing your HA.

I agree with this. I don't think sniper rifles should be able to 1S1K Rexo or Agile-equivalent infantry at any range, in part because of the detrimental affect I fear it might have to outdoor firefights, but more because the huge size of PS1/2 maps make it impossible for even an observant grunt to be able to keep an eye on every single possible sniper location that is available.

1S1K snipers work okay in smaller-scale fps games where there are a limited number of sniper's nests available and where the relatively small size of the map allows you to keep an eye on a good portion of the terrain and react accordingly. Plus you can always put your back against one of the outside edges of the map so that a sniper can't get you from behind.

Not so in PS1/2. The maps are huge, and Higby has stated that PS2 maps will be designed with more vertical gameplay in mind than PS1 (the example he gave was walkways situated along canyon walls), so you'll not only have to deal with snipers shooting from any direction or distance, but from multiple levels as well. I fear that there will be so many potential sniper nests available that 1S1K snipers will be too effective at their job and will end up shutting down outdoor infantry activity of any kind.

PS1 does sniping quite well. The 2-shot sniper kill means that snipers are able to kill grunts that are either already injured or caught out in the open. But a full-health grunt can still maneuver outdoors so long as they keep themselves fully healed and move so that they always have cover to duck behind. That IMO is balanced. And fun because of the game of cat-and-mouse that can ensue as infantry try to maneuver outdoors.

I see 1S1K snipers as being fun for the sniper, but not fun at all for everyone else. More of a skeet shoot than a contest of skills.

[Talek Krell]

If we simply must have OSOK sniper rifles, then I suppose this would be a decent way to do it. Would prevent them from becoming an issue indoors.

Personally hoping that they decide OSOK was a bad idea during beta. I think PS had the sniping system just right. You couldn't just kill someone, you had to actually fight them. The interaction made it as interesting for the target as for the sniper. Even encouraged snipers to cooperate. A two person team could kill very effectively if they worked together.

[Sirisian]

I've said this idea in the headshot threads (http://www.planetside-universe.com/forums/showthread.php?p=560860#post560860) before. Anyway I'd prefer that the bullet gains damage to to 100% of it's normal damage at 100 yards. I don't feel like looking up the posts, but I mentioned explaining it away with a NTU rounds that captured NTU as it traveled so it would only do it's full damage when the bullet was fully charged. Nice and simple explanation.

However, there's one change that needs to be made. If a user lacks armor then it one hits at any range. This allows the sniper rifle to kill cloakers one shot which was invaluable when they snuck up behind you.

In any case hitting a person standing still with a sniper is skilless as mentioned before in the headshots thread. The skill of using a sniper rifle is the second shot. Whether's it's from 100 yards or 2 km it doesn't matter. I can't tell you how many times I've shot a random person just to have him hide so I can't get the second shot. That's how it should be. I digress though since this is beating a dead horse.

[Senyu]

I get headshotted while crouching by a sniper. Big deal. I'm sure our snipers will be able to help take care of them like they did in PS1. Lot of sniper vs. sniper.

[TerminatorUK]

I think it's too early to make an informed decision. We do not know whether aiming will depend on breathe control, classic CoF bloom control or another mechanism. OSOK should be headshot-only for all armoured foes.

[exLupo]

Regardless of implementation, I'm pretty sure that this is a good example of what most (all?) of us wants to make sure isn't a remotely viable tactic in PS2.quickscope montage

---

Personally, I've got no problems with snipers being scary outdoors. Ultimately, it'll turn out like most games where you get a relative 1:1 of snipers (and cloakers) shutting each other down. If one team chooses to not field a response then their losses are going to be their fault. Also, as stated above, vehicle friendly areas won't mean much for snipers at all.

What I want to see happen is that sniper rifles fill the "long range infantry suppression" role. As always, decide the gameplay niche and then fill it with a mechanic. Once the role is filled, carve off the unnecessary parts. In this case, mobile CQC sniping. I'm not saying you camping a long hallway should be out of bounds but hopscotch headshots don't fit that same gameplay model. CoF settle, breathing, scoped charge-up, whatever. Keep the niche, toss the excess.

[Kechiro]

Sniping is pretty much what I do in PS1. 99% of my kills come from sniping, either at close range (indoors on stairways) or outside (pretty much 98% come from here). To be honest, I'm completely against OSOK from ANY gun that isn't used at POINT BLANK IN YOUR FACE range. Mainly because the only info we have to go on is PS1 mechanics/weapons.

If you play NC or VS, you know for a fact that EVERY TR has MCG. Why? Because any noob that can shake his mouse and hold a button down can get a kill. Spray and Pray is the name of the TR game (most of the time, props to those that are actually skilled with an MCG; you know who you are). Could you imagine having an MCG on every TR infantry when all they have to do is aim above your waist, spray away and just let a single round hit you in the face? OP'd much?

But this is about sniping. I enjoy how PS1 did sniping. It shouldn't change whatsoever. If you ask me, speccing into the sniper tree should allow you more ammo for your gun, better scopes (with variable zooms and possibly infra-red if the weather actually does anything this time around), faster reload speeds and more damage. However, they should NEVER do 100% OSOK damage. At max, a sniper should do 85% damage to a rexo, 90% to an agile. That's with a headshot; and even better, 85% to an angile, 80% to a rexo with damage boost from the gun/skill tree. I can't tell you how many times I've misjudged a health bar and the target just barely slipped away with a sliver of health.

As much as I'd like there to be OSOK in-game, I just sincerely don't agree with it what so ever. I personally love taking my Sniper to stairwells in PS1 because it's effective and requires a hell of a lot more skill than MCG/Maelstrom spamming, so I don't want to hear any bitching about that. With all the friendlies in these areas it's harder than people think to get a decent shot off and not kill a teammate. I'm not saying PS2 will have this same sort of scenario, but I would like to have this option and it be viable without people bitching and saying it's OP'd.

Just my two cents. Good snipers should be rewarded, yes. Because I've made some really insane shots lately and all the credit I got was my one kill and a smile to myself. However, OSOK is not the way to go. For any gun, imo.

[Atuday]

Sniping is pretty much what I do in PS1. 99% of my kills come from sniping, either at close range (indoors on stairways) or outside (pretty much 98% come from here). To be honest, I'm completely against OSOK from ANY gun that isn't used at POINT BLANK IN YOUR FACE range. Mainly because the only info we have to go on is PS1 mechanics/weapons.

If you play NC or VS, you know for a fact that EVERY TR has MCG. Why? Because any noob that can shake his mouse and hold a button down can get a kill. Spray and Pray is the name of the TR game (most of the time, props to those that are actually skilled with an MCG; you know who you are). Could you imagine having an MCG on every TR infantry when all they have to do is aim above your waist, spray away and just let a single round hit you in the face? OP'd much?

But this is about sniping. I enjoy how PS1 did sniping. It shouldn't change whatsoever. If you ask me, speccing into the sniper tree should allow you more ammo for your gun, better scopes (with variable zooms and possibly infra-red if the weather actually does anything this time around), faster reload speeds and more damage. However, they should NEVER do 100% OSOK damage. At max, a sniper should do 85% damage to a rexo, 90% to an agile. That's with a headshot; and even better, 85% to an angile, 80% to a rexo with damage boost from the gun/skill tree. I can't tell you how many times I've misjudged a health bar and the target just barely slipped away with a sliver of health.

As much as I'd like there to be OSOK in-game, I just sincerely don't agree with it what so ever. I personally love taking my Sniper to stairwells in PS1 because it's effective and requires a hell of a lot more skill than MCG/Maelstrom spamming, so I don't want to hear any bitching about that. With all the friendlies in these areas it's harder than people think to get a decent shot off and not kill a teammate. I'm not saying PS2 will have this same sort of scenario, but I would like to have this option and it be viable without people bitching and saying it's OP'd.

Just my two cents. Good snipers should be rewarded, yes. Because I've made some really insane shots lately and all the credit I got was my one kill and a smile to myself. However, OSOK is not the way to go. For any gun, imo.

One thing I would like to point out is in one of the interview videos they said there would be head shots and different weapons would get different bonuses for head shots. I seem to remember it being said that the MCG would get no bonus for a head shot while a sniper rifle might get a 200% bonus to its shot. This makes OSOK sniper only on a head shot and MCGs and assualt weapons would be stuck with much less a bonus for head shots.

[CutterJohn]

Regardless of implementation, I'm pretty sure that this is a good example of what most (all?) of us wants to make sure isn't a remotely viable tactic in PS2.quickscope montage (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37iAQ8OHGds)

You want to make sure that people don't run around with a sniper rifle that has one shot body shots at <10m(<20m for m95s)? Good. Me either.

The vast majority of those kills are not head shots, and BFBC2 sniper rifles have zero cone of fire when zoomed in, regardless of motion. This video would be impossible in a PS2 with head shots. Problem solved.


Could you imagine having an MCG on every TR infantry when all they have to do is aim above your waist, spray away and just let a single round hit you in the face? OP'd much?

Yes, that would suck, and the devs know that would suck and they very specifically pointed out that weapons would have different multipliers for head shots, and high rof spam weapons would not get those bonuses.

[Malorn]

What was wrong with the bolt driver? It killed in two hits and in PS2 there will be location-based damage. So why are you proposing this? What problem is it solving?

[Kechiro]

Yes, that would suck, and the devs know that would suck and they very specifically pointed out that weapons would have different multipliers for head shots, and high rof spam weapons would not get those bonuses.

I think I missed this and someone said it in an earlier post on this thread also. I'm relieve to read this, although I was pretty sure they wouldn't give them to spammables anyway. It would just be chaos on the forums and subs would drop left and right.

As for Snipers, I honestly I don't think there is anything wrong with the way it is in PS1. But as I said before I would love to waltz around with my sniper rifle and OSOK people. I just would like it to be balanced. You don't see a lot of snipers in PS1 nowadays, especially good ones.

I consider myself above average, personally. Not great, but better than your average Joe; and I would prefer that they balance sniper rifles out so that the game doesn't turn into a Sniperside.

[CutterJohn]

If it does I'll just turn into a tank and mow you over. Or a MAX. Or an aircraft. Or fight in bases. Or in forests.

There is going to be quite enough other things going on that I don't fear everyone taking sniper. Infantry are far from the biggest threat outdoors, and the areas they are a major threat in are areas with a ton of cover.

[exLupo]

You want to make sure that people don't run around with a sniper rifle that has one shot body shots at <10m(<20m for m95s)? Good. Me either.

The vast majority of those kills are not head shots, and BFBC2 sniper rifles have zero cone of fire when zoomed in, regardless of motion. This video would be impossible in a PS2 with head shots. Problem solved.

That's a given. One hit meatshots should be out on anything, infils included. I just rewatched the video, looking for the headshot bonus xp. A lot were close but the percentage of actual headshots was pretty low. Meatshot montage. Frankly, that makes the sniper rifle balance question in BFBC2 even more questionable.

That being said.

I don't care how good someone is or how well weapons X, Y and Z do at zero range, I don't feel that sniper rifles should ever be reliable as close range engagement weapons. Dev needs to, as with all things, pick a niche and mold the tools to the job. If they are surprisingly excellent in an unintended area, hammer that nail back into place.

[Sirisian]

If snipers could switch to a pistol (http://www.planetside-universe.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37043) fairly quickly this might help make the argument.

[EASyEightyEight]

If snipers could switch to a pistol (http://www.planetside-universe.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37043) fairly quickly this might help make the argument.

Correction: everyone should be able to ;) Might have to make it a skill for handguns though, just to reward people going that route.

[exLupo]

Quick switch weapons or skills/mods (MAG, Brink) help take the sting out of otherwise hampered specialist weapon loadouts. I'd be down.

[Talek Krell]

Maybe there could be some pistol skills in the sniper tree that would improve their effectiveness with them. Assuming that's at all how the skill training works.

[exLupo]

Maybe there could be some pistol skills in the sniper tree that would improve their effectiveness with them. Assuming that's at all how the skill training works.

Could be sniper specific quick-swap skills but I imagine it'd be more of a pistol specific bonus that'd be useful to anyone. Every role will probably have a pistol as backup.

[Captain1nsaneo]

I got a guy up to ~25 with pretty much just sniping. I don't like using a pistol as I need both slots of heal and rep. It's a lot more risk/reward going against HA and MA at close ranges using boltdrivers. I'd really prefer if they kept the 2 hit kill for close range with the bolt drivers, heck, they could make headshots not count or do a bit less damage at point black by just explaining that the rounds have a triggering distance like m209s and RPGs. That would deter people using them for insta-gibs.

[Peacemaker]

Agreed. Rocket assisted projectile, would be a good explination. Does not accelerate untill 75 meters.

[CutterJohn]

I don't care how good someone is or how well weapons X, Y and Z do at zero range, I don't feel that sniper rifles should ever be reliable as close range engagement weapons. Dev needs to, as with all things, pick a niche and mold the tools to the job. If they are surprisingly excellent in an unintended area, hammer that nail back into place.

Snipers aren't reliable as close range engagement weapons. If you play BFBC2 you see most snipers running around with the pistol when forced into short range, since its a more reliable CQC weapon, even though the sniper one hits at close range. If they are intending to play a close range support role with their squad, or are on a small map, they run with the semi/full auto rifles, or the 'standard' weapons anyone can pick.

[exLupo]

Snipers aren't reliable as close range engagement weapons.

They aren't normally but that doesn't mean they aren't ever. I think steps should be taken to make sure the latter is the case.

Is it common to have someone using a sniper as a CQ shotgun and surviving? No.
Can some players pull it off? Yes.
Should they be able to? Imo, no.

Balance needs to take into account both the most common situations as well as the most extreme. If there's an advantageous design flaw, players will milk it.

[CutterJohn]

They aren't normally but that doesn't mean they aren't ever. I think steps should be taken to make sure the latter is the case.

Is it common to have someone using a sniper as a CQ shotgun and surviving? No.
Can some players pull it off? Yes.
Should they be able to? Imo, no.

Balance needs to take into account both the most common situations as well as the most extreme. If there's an advantageous design flaw, players will milk it.

I could see adjusting it if it becomes a defacto shotgun that is commonly used for an unintended role to the point normal shotguns aren't even considered. I have no issues with the guy with the sniper rifle coming out on top every so often due to skill or luck.

Design flaws are only flaws if they are terrible for gameplay. Fix it if its terrible. Prefixing it in case it might be terrible is the wrong way to go about it.

[exLupo]

Design flaws are only flaws if they are terrible for gameplay. Fix it if its terrible. Prefixing it in case it might be terrible is the wrong way to go about it.

Agreed. What you have to weigh is the potential for a problem with the current design versus how kludgy the proposed fix to that problem is.

Bad sniping: CS AWPfest - I don't think many modern FPSers enjoy that.
Good counter: TF2 "charge" meter - Probably a direct response to AWP.

Personally, I think the proposal in this thread amounts to a Sniper Deadzone and I'm not a fan. It would feel bizarre. Charge/settle/breath systems impose a period of shot set-up which is natural for the tool but low exit velocity is almost purely artifice.

Whichever way their design falls, if there's an issue I hope it gets found and cut out in in beta. Making those kinds of changes in live rarely go well.

[CutterJohn]

Agreed, a charge or breath system would be preferable, and I'm not against them. The reverse damage scaling just seems forced.

Making something difficult to use close range = great
Making it just plain work less effectively = weird

I hope other weapons are the same, though in reverse. The damage degradation with range was far too high in PS1, as were the base CoFs.

[Peacemaker]

Totally agree. Damage deg suuuucked in PS1.

[Sirisian]

Agreed, a charge or breath system would be preferable, and I'm not against them. The reverse damage scaling just seems forced.

Making something difficult to use close range = great
Making it just plain work less effectively = weird

How is it weird? It's just making the sniper a specialized weapon. Having the damage scale to 100% at a certain range can be explain hundreds of ways (as previously done in this thread a la the NTU charge as the bullet travels through the air gaining power).

The point isn't making it difficult to use at close range. It's more about making it not a viable weapon for CQB. I'm all for specializing weapons for their intended use.

[exLupo]

This thread has presented two different options on solving the CQB dilemma.
1) Dead zone. Damage ramping via range.
2) Firing delay. Charge/breath/settle.

The former is mostly artifice. It'll feel weird to people who expect bullets to do full damage out of the barrel. The latter is more in line with what people expect from a sniper rifle.

There are other options but I don't really see a need for anything but option 2. It's realistic and makes quickscoping impossible. Let the rifle fire hip-shots but use the variable crit system to make it a non-crit weapon without the in-scope pre-fire time.

[CutterJohn]

There are other options but I don't really see a need for anything but option 2. It's realistic and makes quickscoping impossible. Let the rifle fire hip-shots but use the variable crit system to make it a non-crit weapon without the in-scope pre-fire time.

Yeah, something like the.. spiker? The ancient pistol thing that shot discoballs. That would be an ideal mechanic for sniper rifle, only say its a gauss rifle instead of some magic plasma tech.

Full charge = 2shots to body, 1 shot to head. 1-2s charge. whatever a decent rof is

no charge is something like like the HSR. Minimal bonus to headshots, but decent enough, if not stellar, ttk, while wasting the snipers more limited pool of ammo.

Now its a weapon that can be used up close in a fight if its whats in your hands.

[krnasaur]

Now this is the future, who says they have to follow standard weapon design. The sniper round can be a specially designed round with an accelerating bullet (it gets faster even after it leaves the barrel). They had a pistol like this in WW2(or was it WW1? not 100% sure). At close range the bullet would bounce off of a person, but at long range it was deadly. It gun's design ended up failing because of how useless it was a close range combined it was only a single shot per reload.

This would better convey that the gun is better at long ranges, IMO. Sway/breathing and charging do prevent "Quickscoping" but they dont really prevent people camping a hallway with a sniper rifle waiting for someone to turn the corner.

EDIT: changed wording around

[CutterJohn]

Sway/breathing and charging do prevent "Quickscoping" but they dont really prevent people camping a hallway with a sniper rifle waiting for someone to turn the corner.

Why does that need to be prevented?

[exLupo]

They had a pistol like this in WW2(or was it WW1? not 100% sure). At close range the bullet would bounce off of a person, but at long range it was deadly. It gun's design ended up failing because of how useless it was a close range combined it was only a single shot per reload.

Gyrojet. Not only were they relatively ineffective up close, their maximum velocity at range topped out at about half the muzzle velocity of conventional rifles. The power of the handgun version was about 50% more than a .45. That sounds impressive but it isn't. A .45 is about 400 ft-lbs so the Gyrojet, at full speed, is 600 ft-lbs. A .50 is 1500. 2.5 times the Gyrojet without the need to produce complicated projectiles. This is only exacerbated by rifles where the top speed for the Gyrojet remains the same, around 1250 ft/s, whereas the muzzle velocity of anti-materiel rifles (judging by the size of the bolt driver cartridge) is 2800 ft/s. Gyrojets are interesting but the reality about their limitations means that they lose out to conventional weapons when calibers increase.

Sway/breathing and charging do prevent "Quickscoping" but they dont really prevent people camping a hallway with a sniper rifle waiting for someone to turn the corner.

I'm not sure that snipers in a long hall are a bad thing. You get one shot. A MA at the end of the hallway would still get the first shot and the full length of the hallway against anyone charging without having to give up any accuracy for movement.

[Sirisian]

I'm not sure that snipers in a long hall are a bad thing. You get one shot. A MA at the end of the hallway would still get the first shot and the full length of the hallway against anyone charging without having to give up any accuracy for movement.
We have headshots to "worry" about remember. If all you need to do is charge I could see people taking advantage of this in long hallways to aim at head level. Actually that seems like a viable strategy. Yeah I don't really care anymore which way. The gaining power over distance or the breath/charge before shot are fine with me.

The reason I can see the charge working well is that if we still have the normal CoF mechanism people are going to start charging as their reticule goes down and time it so they shoot right as it hits 100% accuracy. It sounds like it goes perfect with the normal PS sniping system.

[GTGD]

This combined with no more crosshair for an unzoomed sniper would be great. Less idiots using snipers as super shotguns.

[CutterJohn]

Snipers are rarely used as super shotguns, since they suck at the job if they aren't one hit body shots. Too low of a rate of fire. The lack of crosshairs is an option of course, but a silly one, and I'd just put my little piece of plastic back on the screen like I do in BF2/BC2 to be able to use the sniper rifles/rocket launchers more effectively while unscoped.


The only games that have an issue with close range shotgun style use of snipers are those that allow one hit body shots and have pinpoint accuracy while running around.

[Talek Krell]

The lack of crosshairs is an option of course, but a silly one, and I'd just put my little piece of plastic back on the screen like I do in BF2/BC2 to be able to use the sniper rifles/rocket launchers more effectively while unscoped.

Why do they never set it up so that the rifle doesn't always shoot at the same place when you're not using ironsights? The fact that everybody uses those little stickies, and that worse yet it actually works always makes me facepalm a bit. :p