The lethality of Planetside 2 is cranked up. [Archive]

wave

2011-08-11, 10:41 PM

As said in the G4TV Interviews Matt Higby at 6:08. This concerns me. I loved the original Planetside and I especially liked that I had a chance to implement tactics without the worry of being one shotted every time I turned a corner. WOW really screwed things up by turning every class into glass canons by to time they were level 80. Combat that is overly deadly is no fun. I want to atleast have a chance at surviving if I am jumped from behind or if I tap my mouse a millisecond after my opponent. I want my tank to take some huge damage and be able to escape by the skin of my teeth. Dying too often is frustrating and boring.
I just hope that Planetside 2 doesnt take its que from the current state of WOW battlegrounds. Lame!

MrVicchio

2011-08-11, 10:43 PM

SKYeXile

2011-08-11, 10:51 PM

THE GAME IS GOING TO BE HARDCORE LIKE COD!!

Spray and pray - YouTube

100 SHOTS FIRED, 2 HITS = KILL. REAL HARDCORE!

i hope it is nothing like this at all, and the game accutally requires a conistent aim like in PS1, not randomly firing to acheive victory.

Goku

2011-08-11, 10:54 PM

Wow that is BS. No weapon in PS could ever do full auto and keep that accuracy on infantry due to the CoF system.

Bags

2011-08-11, 11:22 PM

Erendil

2011-08-12, 06:12 AM

THE GAME IS GOING TO BE HARDCORE LIKE COD!!

Spray and pray - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=si2yZw7zUyM)

100 SHOTS FIRED, 2 HITS = KILL. REAL HARDCORE!

i hope it is nothing like this at all, and the game accutally requires a conistent aim like in PS1, not randomly firing to acheive victory.

Because players in PS1 never spam plasma/thumpers/maelstroms/HA/tanks shells/Reaver rockets/Pounder shells, etc at stairs, doorways, and other chokepoints and get random kills.

Puh-lease.

That guy in your vid got killed because he apparently had no idea where the shots were coming from, had no concept of the word "cover," and made no effort to actually avoid being shot.

But players with aiming skills like the machine gunner in that vid would would get their asses handed to them by people who can actually aim, like this guy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=efwz2sGwG5g

Aiming can be just as important in games that have more lethal weapons because against a competent opponent, if you can't immediately fire on target during your first couple of shots, you die. I know this since I played on the server karter's vid was recorded on for several years (POTW). In PS1 OTOH, you often can miss the first few shots and still come out on top if you mash ADADA enough. Not that that's necessary bad gameplay. It just not any tougher/more skillful IMO than if PS1's weapons were more lethal.

Now personally I'm hoping the lethality of weapons in PS2 fall about halfway between PS1's weapons and those shown in the COD2 vid I posted. So around 4-6 shots to kill someone, with nothing like PShield, SW, health bene's, or possibly even medkits to boost your health during the actual exchange of fire.

I also hope that 1S1K grunt weapons never make it into PS2, even headshots from a sniper rifle. Correction, especially headshots from a sniper rifle.

FIREk

2011-08-12, 06:50 AM

Because players in PS1 never spam plasma/thumpers/maelstroms/HA/tanks shells/Reaver rockets/Pounder shells, etc at stairs, doorways, and other chokepoints and get random kills.

Puh-lease.

I don't think you got the point, nor the sarcasm. Grenade spam kills slowly and randomly. This was just pure no-skill gameplay, rewarded by the "hardcore" (or "noobcore" as I prefer to call it) mode. ;)

Luckily SOE seems to be biased towards BFBC2, which has a slower TTK than Modern Warfare and pretty much perfect pacing.

exLupo

2011-08-12, 07:00 AM

BFBC2 is lethal, no doubt, but I never feel terribly rushed. Close, shotgun kind of ranges are usually pretty quick and either it's a steamroll or nearly everybody dies in the process. Mid-long engagements reward well placed shots but more often than not you know you're getting shot before you die.

What gets me in PS1 is that you can hose someone with a MA and keep laying on fire and they just don't die. It's a let down. CoD is the complete opposite end of the dial. I'm here and I'm dead.

BF TTKs at all ranges feel much more like CoD but not so much that I am overwhelmed. If PS1 is a 1 and CoD is a 10 I'm thinking what.. TF2 is a 4 and BF is a 6?

SKYeXile

2011-08-12, 07:12 AM

Aiming can be just as important in games that have more lethal weapons because against a competent opponent, if you can't immediately fire on target during your first couple of shots, you die. I know this since I played on the server karter's vid was recorded on for several years (POTW). In PS1 OTOH, you often can miss the first few shots and still come out on top if you mash ADADA enough. Not that that's necessary bad gameplay. It just not any tougher/more skillful IMO than if PS1's weapons were more lethal.

I agree, but it also promotes fast reflexes, so its generally better for younger players who are better because at that, i think a higher time to kill levels the playing field more, and not to mention, this is an MMO, you really want to a kill packet in route to the server just as the packet that shows the enemy on your screen gets to your client?...

Erendil

2011-08-12, 09:07 AM

I agree, but it also promotes fast reflexes, so its generally better for younger players who are better because at that, i think a higher time to kill levels the playing field more, and not to mention, this is an MMO, you really want to a kill packet in route to the server just as the packet that shows the enemy on your screen gets to your client?...

True, one's reflexes does tend to slow down a bit as you age so younger players would have an advantage in the regard.

However, increased lethality also promotes more tactical gameplay since you have less time to react and defend yourself when unexpectedly attacked from the flanks or rear, when caught out in the open, while reloading or healing/repping, etc. Tactical gameplay tends to favour the, er, "wise and experienced" ;) more than the young, and IME that generally balances out any reflex disadvantage us more-seasoned gamers might have.

It's really difficult to comment on how well PS2 deals with lag, etc, but it's never been so insurmountable an obstacle in any other FPS I've played so I don't anticipate it being game-breaking here.

But tbh, I'm willing to put up with the occasion "death before I see an opponent round the corner" if it means I can sneak up behind someone with a rifle and kill them before they have a chance to spin around, pull HA, and put 3 JH shots into my chest since I haven't hit him enough to take him out even though I'm landing every shot and I got the drop on him.

And FIREk, for the record I knew exactly what SKYeXile was talking about and knew his response wasn't exactly serious. It just that he and others like him seem to start foaming at the mouth and end up going into this same hyperbolic diatribe every time somebody mentions the words "COD" or "lethality" and "PS2" in the same sentence. SKY himself has done so several times both here and on SOE's forums, and though I had been holding my tongue I finally said enough and responded in kind....:p

And I would say that the bullet spraying in SKY's vid was rewarded as much by the cluelessness and stupidity of the victim as it was by the lethality of the weapon. I bet that guy would've died just as easily and pathetically in PS1. :cool:

Elude

2011-08-12, 12:06 PM

Spray and pray - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=si2yZw7zUyM)

Not to say this does not happen in COD, I'm more then positive it does, but demo recordings(replays) do not simulate the exact condition. I've seen in many demo recordings for games where I remembered landing a shot directly but in the the demo it was far to the left, I also remember several times I remember clearly missing a shot, but it will land perfectly in the demo.

This is easily tested by just recording yourself live as you record a demo at the same time and compare them side by side.

NlightN

2011-08-12, 02:18 PM

I say just keep the same relative TTK as in PS1, but with hitboxes now -instant headshot kills. Make hits to the chest deal 1.5 times normal damage, while shots to the head deal 2-2.5 times normal damage. Have automatic weapons adjusted to a lower ratio based on CoF spread though. That way the skilled shooters are rewarded with faster TTKs yet no one has to worry about being mowed down as soon as they appear from round a corner.

Sirisian

2011-08-12, 02:35 PM

I agree with 4-6 bullets for the TTK, depending on the weapon, maybe 4-5 bullets. or 6-7 with a pistol.

The BFbc2 TTK is perfect in my opinion.

What I am hoping is they don't have tanks that can send a 150mm shell and barely damage a soldier.... with a direct hit.

Tanks should be much more volatile and harder to aim.
See I prefer much larger TTKs in games where you're forced to shoot like 15-20 rounds at a target to get the kill with a machine gun with a 30 round clip. A pistol would be a slower fire rate and take like 10 with a 15 bullet clip. A TTK of like 2-3 seconds is about what I prefer.

The reason I like this is because it restricts a single gun's kill count to around 1 person or maybe 2 with a grenade/pistol. It artificially allows players to retreat and gives each piece of armor and health a significant value in combat fortifying the roles of medics and engineers in the battlefield. If you stick you head up and take a few rounds it's basically not game over. You can keep a player pinned down for instance without killing them so squads can plan actual tactics. (Basically a solo player can't wipe a whole team).

Not sure if you guys have been to a professional FPS LAN or tried to play in one but most of the matches are like this: http://www.yo.com/watch?v=o30lcEr49cY. It works for some games and people enjoy it, but I personally think it detracts from team combat by making things that fast.

(By the way I played COD 2 a lot and it worked fine for that game. I just don't like that gameplay in Planetside with as many people as we'll be having).

BorisBlade

2011-08-12, 03:15 PM

The bullets in PS1 arent necessarily weak or armor high, the COF on HA weaps blooms like mad when you get hit or when you move much (watch the mcg bloom), combined with the goofy cshd not catchin all the hits, you end up takin longer to kill things. Go spray a dummy in VR who doesnt hit you nor do you have to move alot so your COF stays fairly small, he dies stupid fast to HA. Somethin you really notice as TR and VS. (NC dont really have much of an issue because of instant bullet travel on the JH that doesnt require leading and bloom that doesnt do much.)

If hit detection and accuracy are boosted, somethin that ironsights or somethin similar will do for sure, then that alone will greatly speed up TTK. You dont necessarily have to change the bullet/armor values all that much in a case like that where alot more of your bullets actually land.

Honestly i hope its around what Agile currently is, for the new rexo equivalent in PS2, then go down from there. 1000-1500 players + BF speed quick death doesnt sound like much fun, there is way too much damage flyin around in these massive games to be puttin in quick deaths. The faster you die the less tactical play you can use. Obviously we dont want the final result of PS1's Rexo as its too long, but CoD is the absolute worst, BF is better but still a bit too fast for PS style gameplay.

Gotta find a happy medium and take into account all factors not just bullet damage/armor value.

Hamma

2011-08-12, 05:07 PM

Holy crap that first video was sad, I highly doubt we will see this in PS.

EASyEightyEight

2011-08-12, 06:49 PM

I for one am looking forward to the lower TTK's. I primarily use MA's (being TR, I find the MCG is basically a souped up Cycler anyway) and find it VERY demotivating to put round after round after round into someone even within 75m and they can still safely hobble from cover to cover. The Gauss is a beast in comparison to the Cycler (so many more kills with the former over the latter, it's almost like cheating) and still the enemy is ducknig around. Forget about beyond 75m, I'm definitely wasting ammo at that distance.

The problem with the current TTK's in PS1, or really, the TTK's with medium rifles, was that they were so long it didn't make it very detrimental to just load up HA and zig zag, healing/repairing as needed behind cover, and then unloading when you were finally in range for your HA. There wasn't much tactical play involved actually. The game feels like UT with a crappy link gun that doesn't link serving as the MA.

With higher TTK's, we might actually see rifles in the field. I can probably count the number of guys I've met this week using their factions MA with just my toes. Snipers were more numerous, and HA exponentially so. People should have to remain mindful of where they are and how exposed to fire they make themselves. It shouldn't be one or two shots and dead, but you really shouldn't have the chance to fumble your mouse, recover it, and still safely get to cover if someone is suddenly shooting you.

Talek Krell

2011-08-12, 09:24 PM

I'd prefer TTKs somewhere between PS1 and Bad Company 2. I liked the old Planetside TTK personally, but I am an unusually patient predator. I think there's a sweet spot somewhere a bit closer to Battlefield where good reflexes merely enhance good tactics, rather than overriding them.

Krowe

2011-08-13, 02:11 AM

Bags

2011-08-13, 02:46 AM

The lethality was a problem in PS1?

If you just footzerged everywhere (looking at my fellow TR :( ), then chances are you wouldn't get a positive k/d. Getting a positive k/d is already extremely hard, and not saying thats a bad thing. The only time i got a really good k/d was a 10/3 ratio because I base-raided with MAX suits. Them dual cyclers are nasty in close quarters.

I do nothing but footzerg and I always end up with positive K/Ds. Recently I had 30/28, 12/1, 17/5 and 13/2.

Horn tooting aside, I've never had issue with close range TTk. I do agree that MA rifle should probably be a bit stronger than it is now at longer ranges, but I don't think anything else should change.

I for one am looking forward to the lower TTK's. I primarily use MA's (being TR, I find the MCG is basically a souped up Cycler anyway) and find it VERY demotivating to put round after round after round into someone even within 75m and they can still safely hobble from cover to cover. The Gauss is a beast in comparison to the Cycler (so many more kills with the former over the latter, it's almost like cheating) and still the enemy is ducknig around. Forget about beyond 75m, I'm definitely wasting ammo at that distance.
Agreed.

The problem with the current TTK's in PS1, or really, the TTK's with medium rifles, was that they were so long it didn't make it very detrimental to just load up HA and zig zag, healing/repairing as needed behind cover, and then unloading when you were finally in range for your HA. There wasn't much tactical play involved actually. The game feels like UT with a crappy link gun that doesn't link serving as the MA.
>Implying that UT isn't tactical or that the situation that you explained wasn't tactical. He went tree to tree and healed. How is this not a tactic? Oh wait, it's different than how YOU think the game should be played, so it's not skillful.

With higher TTK's, we might actually see rifles in the field. I can probably count the number of guys I've met this week using their factions MA with just my toes.
What the fuck game are you playing? I was just on for half an hour tonight and I saw every single NC zerging a VS tower on Searhus using a gauss rifle. Half the VS indoors were using sweepers.

CutterJohn

2011-08-13, 03:01 AM

I loved the original Planetside and I especially liked that I had a chance to implement tactics without the worry of being one shotted every time I turned a corner.

I like how you hear 'increased lethality' and instantly equate that with being one shotted around every corner. PS had slooooooooooooooooooooooow kill times. Frankly the slowest I've ever seen in a game. Yeah, up close with HA it was pretty quick, about 1-1.5s, but on the long end it could get crazy. Using a suppressor or pistol to kill rexo/pshield/secondwind/medkits/pop benefits? Ugh..

There is no reason to believe people are going to be dying in 1 or two hits(aside from sniper headshots, which I expect to be difficult to pull off). They can just as easily be reducing the maximum ttks, tightening COFs, having a different absorption system so you don't have to chew through ALL of the armor hitpoints before taking health at too long of a range, reducing the dps disparity of different weapons, etc.

Dying too often is frustrating and boring.

Only if respawn/revive does not improve as well.

EASyEightyEight

2011-08-13, 10:49 AM

>Implying that UT isn't tactical or that the situation that you explained wasn't tactical. He went tree to tree and healed. How is this not a tactic? Oh wait, it's different than how YOU think the game should be played, so it's not skillful.

I fail to see how ADADADAD is tactical. And while the tree to tree thing is tactical (and part of why we're getting classes in PS2) the fact that having a weapon that should be proper for gunning them down at a distance utterly FAIL because it kills so slow absolutely supports that tactic. Why bring an MA if you know you can survive from tree to tree? Who needs covering fire?

What the fuck game are you playing? I was just on for half an hour tonight and I saw every single NC zerging a VS tower on Searhus using a gauss rifle. Half the VS indoors were using sweepers.

Chee, I'd like to follow you around. I swear every single NC I meet has a phoenix and a jackhammer on their back, and every Vanu has a lasher and a lancer. So I'm calling BS in return. Unless you only thought you were on Searhus, and were actually on Oshur, which would explain all the gauss rifles and sweepers.

artifice

2011-08-13, 11:02 AM

Holy crap that first video was sad, I highly doubt we will see this in PS.

You won't see inept players who don't know how to take cover?

Elude

2011-08-13, 11:14 AM

Comparing Planetside to UT are we lol? We might aswell throw a few racing games in here haha.

Krowe

2011-08-13, 11:15 AM

I do nothing but footzerg and I always end up with positive K/Ds. Recently I had 30/28, 12/1, 17/5 and 13/2.

Horn tooting aside, I've never had issue with close range TTk. I do agree that MA rifle should probably be a bit stronger than it is now at longer ranges, but I don't think anything else should change.

I just never ever saw the reason behind footzerging when we could have squads of tanks on the field. You surround anything with 2-3 Prowlies and they're gonna die, easy positive k/d. The problem is that very few TR are coordinated to do something like that, I've seen many a Reaver fleet go up in the air just to be shot down.

EDIT: And I see NC using Gauss all the time, I see TR using it if they don't have MCG for whatever reason. The Gauss is a good gun, pretty sure I'd use it for most of my career if I could.

Crator

2011-08-13, 11:22 AM

Agree about the foot-zergers. LOL. I saw many yesturday. They were foot-zerging from a base we had just capped to another close base on Searhus. The ones in the south. Rehua and can't remeber name of one right north of it. Then after we took the north base I saw foot-zerging again from that base to the one really far to the east. I'm guessing these people are newbs and forgot to get a vehicle cert.

Bags

2011-08-13, 01:20 PM

[COLOR="Red"]
I fail to see how ADADADAD is tactical. And while the tree to tree thing is tactical (and part of why we're getting classes in PS2) the fact that having a weapon that should be proper for gunning them down at a distance utterly FAIL because it kills so slow absolutely supports that tactic. Why bring an MA if you know you can survive from tree to tree? Who needs covering fire?

If you can't kill HA users outdoor with MA then the problem isn't the game, it's you, mate.

EASyEightyEight

2011-08-13, 03:05 PM

If you can't kill HA users outdoor with MA then the problem isn't the game, it's you, mate.

I'm sorry, what part of them taking cover before my MA (the cycler btw) kills them do you not understand? It's not an aiming issue, it's an issue of the damage being too freaking low, at least against rexo. I'll be damned if an agile is caught out in the field, they're usually mossy dropping on top of the base.

I own with a gauss, but who the hell doesn't? It hasn't suffered at all from the rexo buff many many years back. Unfortunately for every 10 NC packs, only 1 if I'm lucky is ever carrying one. Same goes for the Pulsar. Strange that you don't see NC or VS stealing cyclers, eh? Course, most of them don't even use their own MA anyway, which is sickeningly ironic, because the cycler is terrible in comparison against your average foot mobile (whom has rexo, or was everyone in that tower battle wearing agile too?)

Krowe

2011-08-13, 04:44 PM

I'm sorry, what part of them taking cover before my MA (the cycler btw) kills them do you not understand? It's not an aiming issue, it's an issue of the damage being too freaking low, at least against rexo. I'll be damned if an agile is caught out in the field, they're usually mossy dropping on top of the base.

I own with a gauss, but who the hell doesn't? It hasn't suffered at all from the rexo buff many many years back. Unfortunately for every 10 NC packs, only 1 if I'm lucky is ever carrying one. Same goes for the Pulsar. Strange that you don't see NC or VS stealing cyclers, eh? Course, most of them don't even use their own MA anyway, which is sickeningly ironic, because the cycler is terrible in comparison against your average foot mobile (whom has rexo, or was everyone in that tower battle wearing agile too?)

Tbh the cycler should have a higher RoF, not clip size. Clip size only encourages spraying.

Sirisian

2011-08-13, 04:53 PM

I'm sorry, what part of them taking cover before my MA (the cycler btw) kills them do you not understand? It's not an aiming issue, it's an issue of the damage being too freaking low, at least against rexo. I'll be damned if an agile is caught out in the field, they're usually mossy dropping on top of the base.
That's how it should be. Pinning someone down while they're healing is strategy. If you want to hit them in that situation you need to specialize in special assault. I personally hit them with punisher grenades when they hide behind a tree. These kinds of tactics need to be rewarded.

If someone steps out from a tree and only 1 person is shooting at them they should easily get to their next piece of cover. If you could just hit them with 5 bullets no one would push forward. You'd have people on the walls just destroying everyone. (I'm just speculating from my time on a wall hitting random people a few times with my Punisher).

Sifer2

2011-08-13, 05:12 PM

I agree there are definitely merits to a higher TTK. I used to love playing games like Unreal Tournament or Halo back in the day. Where you could get shot in the back an that put you at a disadvantage. But if you were truly better you could turn around do some good maneuvering an have better aim an beat the guy. You sure as hell can't do that in CoD or any other "realism" shooter. Cause when it comes down to it those games are kind of glorified hide an seek. Who find the other first wins. Glory to the camper.

Unfortunately that's whats more popular these days an that's why SOE is going to cater to that crowd. And I just hope that it doesn't completely ruin the gameplay since in a game the scale of Planetside with hundreds instead of 30 or so its going to get crazy I fear. I really don't want it to turn into spawn/die/spawn/die but the way they describe with confirmed one shot one kill in the game I fear it will be.

Bags

2011-08-13, 07:06 PM

I'm sorry, what part of them taking cover before my MA (the cycler btw) kills them do you not understand? It's not an aiming issue, it's an issue of the damage being too freaking low, at least against rexo. I'll be damned if an agile is caught out in the field, they're usually mossy dropping on top of the base.

I own with a gauss, but who the hell doesn't? It hasn't suffered at all from the rexo buff many many years back. Unfortunately for every 10 NC packs, only 1 if I'm lucky is ever carrying one. Same goes for the Pulsar. Strange that you don't see NC or VS stealing cyclers, eh? Course, most of them don't even use their own MA anyway, which is sickeningly ironic, because the cycler is terrible in comparison against your average foot mobile (whom has rexo, or was everyone in that tower battle wearing agile too?)

Oh, I thought you were NC. Yes, the Cycler sucks (which is why I use HSR on TR) but there's no need to rebalance everything because the Cycler is bad.

MA definitely needs to be tweaked at longer ranges, but other than that I think the rest of the TTKs are fine.

Crator

2011-08-13, 09:38 PM

^^^

Truth

nathanebht

2011-08-13, 10:33 PM

So vehicle deadliness should be cranked up too? Hope everyone likes respawning a lot.

From what I remember from PS1, the TTK was fine.

Sirisian

2011-08-13, 11:36 PM

Curious for those that want a faster TTK, why? Is it so you can get more kills with a single clip?

This has been mentioned before, but I keep imagining one person going into a hallway and spraying to kill a bunch of players. How do people that want a faster TTK see those scenarios?

exLupo

2011-08-14, 01:33 AM

Curious for those that want a faster TTK, why? Is it so you can get more kills with a single clip?

Were this a comparison to another low TTK game, sure but PS1's TTKs are abysmal. There is no reward to aiming and placing good shots because the target will surge to cover before you've done any meaningful damage. PS1 is purely a spray contest. Lower STK scenarios reward aim and punish over extending. Now, if you crank it down too low then it's raw twitch and spam so you've got to find a nice mid ground.

TTK too high and you can usually respond in time to run away from anything not in your face.
TTK too low and death comes before you can respond.

CoD is the latter. PS1 is the former. I find TF2 and BF2's kill times more rewarding. You have time to think but can still kill people at range. You're never tickling your targets.

CutterJohn

2011-08-14, 01:46 AM

Curious for those that want a faster TTK, why? Is it so you can get more kills with a single clip?

Combat just feels better. I don't want an across the board ttk increase. ~1s minimum for the rexo equivalent is fine. Its the mid/long range stuff that started getting obnoxious. The CoF and damage degradation were way too punishing, and MA just needed to hit harder.

Oh and pistols were nearly useless except for cloakers. There was no point in taking them as backup weapons.

Bags

2011-08-14, 03:11 AM

Why use a pistol when I can use my badass MCG? ;p

exLupo

2011-08-14, 04:59 AM

Why use a pistol when I can use my badass MCG? ;p

Because you're so much of a badass that you survived until you were out of McG ammo. At that point you're down to your pistol and then a 20:1 knifing spree.

Duh.

FIREk

2011-08-14, 07:04 AM

Curious for those that want a faster TTK, why? Is it so you can get more kills with a single clip?

Mag sizes in PS1's MA weapons were quite ridiculous (30, 40 and 50 rounds), so with a faster TTK they should be made smaller. Or, rather, they will be made smaller. Look at the trailer for "proof". ;)
The "new Cycler's" looks much like a classic 5.56mm M16-style STANAG magazine. With faster TTKs, we can assume the mag capacity has been dropped to the common 30 rounds.
Now, the "new Gauss". Its mag looks like it came off an M14 on steroids. ;) The typical capacity of a high-caliber (7.62mm) assault rifle magazine is 20 rounds. Even though the NC assault rifle's mag looks bigger than the typical 7.62mm mag, 20 rounds seems reasonable for this kind of weapon (slower, more powerful).
And as for the "new Pulsar"... Who cares, right? It's Vanu tech. Let's assume the potato batteries powering them are good for 25 shots. ;)

This has been mentioned before, but I keep imagining one person going into a hallway and spraying to kill a bunch of players. How do people that want a faster TTK see those scenarios?

Keep in mind that with a shorter TTK, that person will get enough stray shots in him to get punished for his/her recklessness rather quickly.
I use shotguns whenever possible in every game I play, so I'm up close and personal whenever possible. I assure you, fast TTK works both ways. ;)

On a side note, I'm more and more convinced PS2 will have passive health regeneration (a.k.a. "thumb-sucking" and "BLOODY SCREEN! SO REAL!";)).
Unless medics come equipped with TF2-style "health beams" (which will look terrible in a game like this), with fast TTK you pretty much need passive health regen.
Why? Since you can't soak up damage like in PS2, you're likely to be forced to drop behind cover more often. You can't be expected to wait for a medic every time you hide behind a rock, after taking a few hits. And I don't think the few medkits you'll be carrying will be enough to get you from point A to point B, even if you're being careful.

Vancha

2011-08-14, 07:39 AM

You can't be expected to wait for a medic every time you hide behind a rock, after taking a few hits. And I don't think the few medkits you'll be carrying will be enough to get you from point A to point B, even if you're being careful.
When did medkits become the only way we'll be able to heal ourselves in PS2?

FIREk

2011-08-14, 07:46 AM

When did medkits become the only way we'll be able to heal ourselves in PS2?

Medkits were at least mentioned during the dev panel. I don't believe any other means of healing (for non-Medic classes) was ever mentioned. Let alone a med tool for everyone.

EASyEightyEight

2011-08-14, 11:42 AM

Actually, I think there's still room for 50 rounds magazines in the PS2 Cycler, just looking at the distance between the end of the magazine and to under the barrel, though that depends on the size of the rounds. Well actually, SOE could fit 100 rounds in a 1"x1"x2" box if they really wanted to, but you know what I mean. Though I like to think part of weapon customization might involve enlarging magazines and the like, so we may just see smaller default magazine sizes.

@Bag's. Sorry for being overly defensive. I can see why you think the TTK's are fine, but for me personally, MA does need to have a little more killing power behind it. And really, it's not that so much MA (such as the cycler, suppressor, and punisher) is weak so much as rexo armor in PS1 should have returned to 8 mitigation (the rate the MA were balanced at) and not buffed and remained at 10 mitigation for the old, old surgile problem.

Still, part of PS2's skill should be being aware of one's own surroundings, and knowing from which angles they're exposed. Longer TTK's give a player too much time to react accordingly. If they know where the fire is coming from, chances are with BF TTK's they can get out of harms way just in time. If someone starts shooting someone and catches them off-guard without an escape plan, it should be rewarded before their victim knows what hit them.

Honestly, I think simply making rexo armor agile strength and agile equal to standard strength in PS2 would fit almost perfectly.

And for medics, I want to agree with there being some form of regen as well, I just hope SOE incorporates it well, because it needs to necessitate medics outside of simple revives. I once conceived an idea revolving around a wound system an F2P MMORPG used, where there is normal hp loss that can be normally regained through potions and healing, while there was a degrading HP loss that were called wounds, that effectively reduced the maximum health pool until properly treated. But fleshing out this concept is for that other thread (which I can't find.)

Vancha

2011-08-14, 11:49 AM

Medkits were at least mentioned during the dev panel. I don't believe any other means of healing (for non-Medic classes) was ever mentioned. Let alone a med tool for everyone.
Implants?

Empire benefits?

Skills?

For all we know, we might be able to cannibalize corpses to regenerate ourselves...

Bags

2011-08-14, 12:32 PM

Because you're so much of a badass that you survived until you were out of McG ammo. At that point you're down to your pistol and then a 20:1 knifing spree.

Duh.

Silly lupo, there's too many maxes to run out of ammo.

Bags

2011-08-14, 12:34 PM

(a.k.a. "thumb-sucking" and "BLOODY SCREEN! SO REAL!";)).

Higby: lol I think bloodyscreen is a joke
Community: i think bloodyscreen will be in the game!

Medkits were at least mentioned during the dev panel. I don't believe any other means of healing (for non-Medic classes) was ever mentioned. Let alone a med tool for everyone.

I've watched every bit of PS information so I call bullshit until you can point me to where they said this.

Crator

2011-08-14, 12:44 PM

I think it's an assumption made by the comminuty that not everyone will have medkits due to classes. No where does the SOE dev panel say that though. They did mention medkits in the dev panel but nothing other then how they are related to inventory management.

EASyEightyEight

2011-08-14, 12:58 PM

It just would be wise to not expect to be able to heal oneself as they do now in PS1. For any prolonged in field combat, a medic will need to be nearby. Medkits will probably just be a back up form of self-healing as they are in PS1. You'll want a medic for some more serious recovery though.

I'd personally prefer a mix between "BLOODY SCREEN! SO REAL!" and old school semi-permanent health loss, with the latter needing to be recovered through outside healing methods (kits, medic) and forcibly lowering the maximum hp one can naturally regen to until then. Sort of maintains the tactical combat without requiring anyone to have a medic glued to their ass for the sole purpose of healing for every moment they're online. People with 12hp after one or two firefights and no immediate method to recover either retreat all the way back to the nearest terminal or go in guns blazing for a quick respawn back to 100%. That would kind of go against SOE's game plan in my opinion.

Crator

2011-08-14, 01:01 PM

You know what would be kewl. Advanced medics have the tech needed to provide AOE heals. Of course with some kewl graphics effects to go along with it.

Krowe

2011-08-14, 01:17 PM

You know what would be kewl. Advanced medics have the tech needed to provide AOE heals. Of course with some kewl graphics effects to go along with it.

Only if it also healed enemies in the radius.

And I really liked FarCry 2 Health and recovery system. The only dumb thing about that game really was that enemies took 5+ shots to kill, with no armor on.

Crator

2011-08-14, 01:20 PM

I don't see a problem with it healing enemies but why?

Krowe

2011-08-14, 01:25 PM

I don't see a problem with it healing enemies but why?

Just the possibility of rushing into a base with X medics throwing those AoE heals. If they time it correctly, they'd simply be able to buffer out most damage with minimal losses. Plus it just makes sense that some form of AoE heal wouldn't be picky about who it healed.

FIREk

2011-08-14, 03:30 PM

Higby: lol I think bloodyscreen is a joke
Community: i think bloodyscreen will be in the game!

Source or it never happened. ;)

I've watched every bit of PS information so I call bullshit until you can point me to where they said this.

Somewhere during the dev panel, medkits were mentioned at least once. Can't give you any details at the moment.

Just the possibility of rushing into a base with X medics throwing those AoE heals. If they time it correctly, they'd simply be able to buffer out most damage with minimal losses. Plus it just makes sense that some form of AoE heal wouldn't be picky about who it healed.

I think the idea behind AoE heals may have been to emulate the Bad Company 2 implementation, where a medic would speed up passive health regen. Whether the area of effect is centered around the medic, or around an object/device he drops (like in BFBC2) is irrelevant.
Passive health regen typically kicks in when you're stationary, so you wouldn't have hordes of insta-regenerating grunts rushing a base, with wounds healing as they go. ;)
You would have hordes of grunts waiting behind a corner, praying around a magical device that makes the BLOODY SCREEN disappear quicker. :P

Also, what EASyEightyEight is a sure win and it would be cool if someone from the dev team looked at it. ;)

Crator

2011-08-14, 03:35 PM

Just the possibility of rushing into a base with X medics throwing those AoE heals. If they time it correctly, they'd simply be able to buffer out most damage with minimal losses. Plus it just makes sense that some form of AoE heal wouldn't be picky about who it healed.

A chance to think outside the box a bit with this one. Perhaps the tech only links to nearby friendlies. I would design it this way if it were possible. The possiblity of rushing can be countered by the other team having just as many medics.

Bags

2011-08-14, 04:34 PM

Source or it never happened. ;)

Q: Can you confirm that there will not be face blood splatters ala Call of Duty?

Matt: you guys don't like the strawberry jam???

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1DAqjmgQptK1zVwhiWa-6prWH0NlKot3NJo_Umvg8n2g/edit?hl=en_US

FIREk

2011-08-14, 06:40 PM

Q: Can you confirm that there will not be face blood splatters ala Call of Duty?

Matt: you guys don't like the strawberry jam???

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1DAqjmgQptK1zVwhiWa-6prWH0NlKot3NJo_Umvg8n2g/edit?hl=en_US

Oh yeah, I recall this one. I assumed it meant that CoD has excessive blood particle effects when you hit someone in the head... :P Bloody screen is so mainstream nowadays, I wouldn't have guessed CoD would be used as a symbol for it.

This quote doesn't really contain an answer, though, at least in my opinion. It might as well mean "we'll probably have bloody screen; what, you guys don't like that sort of thing?". ;)

EASyEightyEight

2011-08-14, 06:55 PM

CoD may be the symbol, but Halo afaik was the originator of the "health regen" mechanic, as CoD 1 had actual health. It was replaced in CoD 2 because they didn't want people scrounging around for medkits in the middle of a battlefield. BTW, I'm not looking for anything to back that up :p Won't change anything.

In CoD, you're a typical soldier whom seemingly has super fast regeneration. At least other games tend to make an attempt to explain it away:

Halo: shields.
Resistance: chimaera metabolism.

Okay so nothing else comes to mind. At least in Planetside we can justify it with nanites! We only deconstruct on death and reconstruct in a tube multiple times a fight after all :rolleyes:

FIREk

2011-08-14, 07:01 PM

In PlanetSide it can either be nanites or BENDING! ;)

Graywolves

2011-08-14, 11:22 PM

Well in these games with high lethality the players are much less than those in Planetside and the maps are created for the numbers in those games.

I don't think high lethality would work very well in a game like Planetside, every battle would be a massive massacre.

Talek Krell

2011-08-14, 11:54 PM

The possiblity of rushing can be countered by the other team having just as many medics.

Having both teams be equally unbalanced does not mean that everything is balanced. :p

I think AoE healing doesn't really fit the game, you end up with medics being more buffbot than, you know, medic.

Effective

2011-08-15, 12:00 AM

My personal view, is that a faster TTK is a good thing. It will encourage playing smart through the fact that if you stack yourselves in a nice straight line you deserve to be mowed down by one guy spamming a corridor. Faster TTK's also encourage situational awareness and positioning before attacking someone.

As long as PS2 removes the horribly claustrophobic spam inducing linear narrow hallways, one guys spraying a corridor shouldn't be an issue.

Erendil

2011-08-17, 10:14 PM

Having both teams be equally unbalanced does not mean that everything is balanced. :p

I think AoE healing doesn't really fit the game, you end up with medics being more buffbot than, you know, medic.

I agree on both counts. Plus if there is anything like gen or cc holds in PS2 that involve easily defendable positions with few or bottlenecked points of access, AoE healing could make it incredibly difficult to break into.

I'm not really a fan of any sort of "free healing," so if they do include it in PS2 it should at the very least require the medic to be holding some device in their hands (so they can't have a weapon out) and both the medic and anyone who wants the healing should need to be stationary as well. I'd rather they just not include it tho.

One more thing I thought of re: PS2 weapon lethality: characters in PS1 move incredibly slowly unless they're either ADADA strafing or actively using Surge. Judging from the PS2 trailer it look like the footspeed might have increased by a hair, and it looks like everyone might get sprint capability as well. Combined with bullet drop and wind drift effects it's possible that even though weapons are more lethal it might be more difficult to actually hit your opponent at any kind of range if they're on the move.

Plus I haven't seen any mention of whether or not they'll be introducing a lean function as well. I hope they do include lean a la COD2, where you are able to lean out from behind cover and fire, but you expose your head and about 1/4 of your torso to enemy fire while doing so.

If they do include lean, then there will naturally be times where you'll hit your enemy less since they're mostly behind cover, but the increased lethality will mean you'll do more damage if you score a hit - esp since your head is exposed while leaning. From my experience in other fps games this tends to reward accurate firing while indirectly punishing spamming (making random hits less common and thus less effective).

Crator

2011-08-18, 10:32 AM

I agree on both counts. Plus if there is anything like gen or cc holds in PS2 that involve easily defendable positions with few or bottlenecked points of access, AoE healing could make it incredibly difficult to break into.

I'm not really a fan of any sort of "free healing," so if they do include it in PS2 it should at the very least require the medic to be holding some device in their hands (so they can't have a weapon out) and both the medic and anyone who wants the healing should need to be stationary as well. I'd rather they just not include it tho.

I somewhat disagree with not putting something in a game because it may cause balance issues. All things in-game should be tuned to allow for good game play and not hinder the core game play aspects. You're suggestion to only allow AOE heals to affect someone if they are standing still is a good balance mechanism. Also, they could add devices for certain classes that may interrupt the AOE heals, so, a counter.

Krowe

2011-08-18, 01:33 PM

If there was a 1-2 second activation time (and item required to b currently equipped) that can be interrupted by damage, then sure, add it.

DviddLeff

2011-08-18, 01:39 PM

Bags

2011-08-18, 03:00 PM

PS had horrible, horrible TTKs for MA weapons.

The amount of times you open fire on someone just to have them turn around with HA and beat you was way too much; you get the drop on someone and you should win, unless you cant aim for toffee. You see this imbalance when you see people with HA cutting through 4-5 people in a row.

BF TTK is perfect, for me at least.

If you get the drop on anyone with MA and you lose it's not the game's fault, it's yours (except maybe if you're PB and they have a JH... in which case why are you fighting them with a rifle at that range?). And yes Leff, I've seen you in game, it's not the game. Gauss rifle kills in 10 shots.