Headshot Snapshot Poll

[Talek Krell]

As we gain more information about just how in depth the game physics and weather systems are intended to be, I'm becoming more open to the idea of being instagibbed by some guy in a bush a half mile away (:p). I'm curious whether the opinions of the community at large are also shifting.

Specifically, it's now known that in addition to gravity snipers will also have to account for wind. The weather and time of day will also be involved in terms of visibility, and possibly in terms of how they affect the bullet trajectory as well (falling rain for example). It should also be noted that the damage multiplier for a headshot can be different for each weapon, so that while a bolt driver might be able to kill someone with a single well placed shot, the mini chain-gun would receive no benefit from hitting the head.

[Bags]

Do I want? No.
Am I willing to accept? Non-OSOK.

[Huma]

I'd have to agree with bags. Though with ballistics and wind affecting rounds I don't think we have to worry about snipers to much.

[CutterJohn]

osok for sniping is fine and dandy.

[Bags]

And before someone goes:

BUT BAGS, YOU'RE FINE WITH VEHICLES BEING OSOK!

Yes, because vehicles are large, bulky and visible, and aren't reliable at longer ranges.

[legendary]

I voted yes, due to I like the thought of FPS aiming skill being rewarded. I do fear the possibility of exploitation of the mechanic.

[Sirisian]

I'm fine with two-shots or doing a little bit more damage if you shoot a player in the head. Not a fan of a long range one-hitting weapon. I'm personally not a bad aim so I'm not saying this because I suck at sniping. It's more that I don't want a sniper to just rack up ranged kills one after another. People sit and heal behind trees and they take cover. If you catch some people off guard getting a head-shot on them will just promote the idea of kill-streaks over teamwork. However, if you're forced to shoot then re-target a moving player that shows skill. It also gives the other player a fighting chance. Meaning a sniper can be used for both suppressive fire and getting kills.

I'm still a strong believer in long TTKs though so don't expect me to change my mind.

[Robert089]

I prefer no one shot one kill, because being instagibbed by anything isn't fun on the receiving end.

I'm interested in how wind will play a part, how are they going to indicate wind direction? Also with bullet drop I hope they make use of a proper scope with actual range markings on it and allow us to tell the distance to our target, if it's just aim above your target and guess then I will probably not roll a sniper character.

[exLupo]

I'm fine with sniper OHKs. Comparing PS1 sniping to BF sniping and, in the scheme of things, both are fairly pointless professions. You get kills but you don't cap points.

PS1 sniping is not about getting kills. If you hit someone, they bob and weave, juke and bunnyhop to cover and heal up. It's a suppression weapon. And with both the spotty net code and environmental hit-box occlusion, not a good one at that. Using PS1 as a model of "good sniping" has to take into account the systemic flaws that go beyond the actual sniping mechanic itself.

BF sniping, on the other hand, is not just suppression but also attrition and surgical targeting. Once a sniper is identified, the same juke dance starts and kills are limited but that first hit on a medic actually gives the recon tactical significance that the PS1 sniper does not and can not have. Why? Because you can't actually kill that key member in PS1.

I'm a-ok with sniping being OHK as long as there are substantial trade-offs. No MA/HA/AV. No medic tools. Must scope and wait before head crits are enabled. I am perfectly fine with a tank one-shotting me and I'm perfectly fine with a sniper who actually lands his long range hits doing the same. Most snipers in OHK games couldn't land that shot if you paid them $10 every time. However, even looking at the role from a pure efficacy point, it only goes so far.

Reading above and, frankly, every "snipers ruin games" thread on BF forums, all I see is "this is unfair" but not "this is unbalanced". People don't like it but the only thing having a lot of snipers on your team accomplishes is a quick loss. If the question was one of being overpowered then sniper packs would regularly top kill/point charts. This is not the case. The actual utility of OHK is capped by many factors. Do you have good terrain? How obstructed is the field? Are you doing anything for your team? Is anyone actively hunting you?

Always bring it back to the three important questions.
1) Does it fill a role?
2) How important is that role?
3) How well is that role filled?

With PS1 you have suppression. Suppression is extremely important. Look at tanks spamming tower doors. Sure they get kills but, moreover, they keep troops bottled into the basement. The Bolt Driver is only marginally successful at it's chosen role. If you can ever see a player, no matter how good they are, doing something and know your team would be better served by them doing pretty much anything else, there is a problem. Sometimes that problem is that there are too many people doing it (5 snipers in TF2? Please, please... diaf.) but, more importantly, if there aren't many and it's still ineffectual.

tl;dr: PS1 sniping is for suppression. Its role is extremely narrow and it isn't too good at it either. Why? Non-OHK. The most damning support? Think about the best snipers? They're the ones with 2 BD on their back, quick swapping and dropping faster second shots. The PS1 model, which I loved specifically due to the 2 hit nature, is pointless when facing an experienced opponent. Having played in games with properly balanced OHK sniper mechanics and the PS1 model comes across as nothing but inadequate.

---

An anecdote: I ragequite EVE at one point because I jumped 125,000,000 isk worth of cows into low-sec space and straight into a gate camp. A while later I sucked it up and came back. I've never really been the same since. Sometimes there will be situations designed specifically to kill you in a way that you cannot respond to. Tanks? Snipers? Gatecamps? Being killed instantly, when not a regular occurrence, is not a bad mechanic. It's just not for everyone.

[Bruttal]

I voted yes but it will have to be watched closely because people learn to abuse game mechanics and if you cant fix the mechanic then take it away.

[Death2All]

More damage is acceptable.

One shot kill is just retarded.


I think Higby said that there will be OSKs for certain weapons but I may be remembering wrong. So long as MCGs aren't in that criteria I would be relatively fine with it.

[EASyEightyEight]

I've changed my mind and decided with wind, bullet drop, and maybe other factors to consider, a head-shot should be a OHK. Why? Because going for the head and still requiring 2 shots when the body would equal possibly the same number of shots anyway will simply discourage the necessity of aiming for the head at all, even if the body can take 1 more shot over the head. Center mass is just simply easier to hit, and if one won't be rewarded for nailing a melon at 300m, why bother trying to? Then they have to worry about some guy with a shotgun or a VTOL showing up and ruining their day, where in PS2, they probably couldn't pack the back-up weaponry to counter either effectively.

It's just one of those things where we'll have to accept that really good snipers can OHK us, while the crap ones will miss by a mile. Otherwise, we're back to square one where they're mostly a nuisance forcing us to retreat every time we sit down for more than 2 seconds to shoot something.

[exLupo]

I think Higby said that there will be OSKs for certain weapons but I may be remembering wrong. So long as MCGs aren't in that criteria I would be relatively fine with it.

He did during an interview and noted McGs specifically when talking about weapons that get reduce or no headshot bonus.

[Logit]

More damage is acceptable.

One shot kill is just retarded.


I think Higby said that there will be OSKs for certain weapons but I may be remembering wrong. So long as MCGs aren't in that criteria I would be relatively fine with it.

This.

With 1000's of people playing the game it's ridiculous to think OSOK won't be stupid and get out of hand.

I refer you to Counterstrike. If you have the choice between a OSOK gun or something else. It's a no brainer.

People WILL exploit easy mode.

[MasterChief096]

I think that a headshot from a sniper rifle should do something like 90 health damage for rexos, 95 for agile suits, meaning only full health individuals would survive a hit to the head from a sniper. If you have a meager amount of damage to your health a headshot would be able to take you out instantly. This would still promote headshots and make enhanced targeting something that snipers would use a lot. They'd use more strategy in picking their shots as well.

[morf]

I'm cool with osok for snipers as long under 2 conditions:

1. Its going to need to be hard to pull off a headshot from a distance beyond 150 yards or so. With bullet drop, wind, small clip size (bolt driver) it should take a lot of skill to pull off.

2. There needs to be a good counter for the sniper once his position is discovered. For example, i'd like to see those jetpack medium assault troops able to book it over to his position and nail him assuming that he doesn't have arnor covering him. This will take care of the lone wolf snipers. If its a large battle and they're behind armor then other snipers should be the counter. If you're infantry in an outdoor battle involving armor you'll likely want to be either AV or sniper anyway.

BF2 has a pretty good system as far as difficulty, but an excellent sniper can still do a lot of damage. I think a smaller clip size could help balance this for planetside.

[Hamma]

It's important to note if it wasn't said already that not all weapons will have headshots in PlanetSide 2.

[Logit]

It's important to note if it wasn't said already that not all weapons will have headshots in PlanetSide 2.

Yeah but the one in question has the highest damage output on a per bullet basis.

I see me a problem brewing

[Talek Krell]

I forgot to mention that the multipliers would be different for each weapon, so that the MCG, for example, wouldn't benefit from aiming at the head. Thank you all for bringing that up, I'll edit the original post.

[Furret]

I really don't understand what everyone's talking about when they say sniping people in the HEAD will be easy-mode. I assure you your average sniper would have a very difficult time hitting a running target in the head, even without bullet drop/wind. Only having to calculate for running speed and direction based on distance from the target is something that requires experience.

With the requirement that a sniper account for wind, bullet drop, and target movement, a sniper has to reconsider their x and y axis TWICE in order to land that money shot.

I'm a pretty good sniper, and it takes me about two to three seconds to line up a shot on a moving target with the crosshair bloom.

And that's to hit the body.

Without wind.

Or bullet drop.

Trust me when I say this: No player is going to come into PlanetSide 2, pick up a sniper rifle, and start dropping targets left and right from 300m out.

I would however suggest that any of a couple possible mechanics to stop players from getting headshot OSOKs from >100m, since those would be much easier to hit.

- Due to the atmosphere of Auraxis, the bullet wobbles in flight until the 100m mark, where it straightens out and is able to do maximum damage.

- The bolts are especially designed so that they reshape mid flight into a form that causes more damage. This transformation takes 100m of flight time.

- [Enter other possible explanation here.]

[Talek Krell]

You mean <100 meters, right?

[Sirisian]

I really don't understand what everyone's talking about when they say sniping people in the HEAD will be easy-mode.
I feel like I'm beating a dead horse here, but it's not that it's easy-mode it's that for some people gaining the experience to lead and shoot someone in the head is a gut instinct that a lot of FPS player possess and can learn very quickly. No matter how hard the shot there will be people that make it look easy.

Not even that hitting a stationary person once is trivial. Bringing up the "hitting a guy running". Yeah they only run when you hit them once. :lol: I'm fine with doing 70-80% damage for a headshot by the way. I just don't feel they need a one-hit for their headshot accomplishment.

[Furret]

You mean <100 meters, right?

Yes, sorry. :D

I feel like I'm beating a dead horse here, but it's not that it's easy-mode it's that for some people gaining the experience to lead and shoot someone in the head is a gut instinct that a lot of FPS player possess and can learn very quickly. No matter how hard the shot there will be people that make it look easy.

Not even that hitting a stationary person once is trivial. Bringing up the "hitting a guy running". Yeah they only run when you hit them once. :lol: I'm fine with doing 70-80% damage for a headshot by the way. I just don't feel they need a one-hit for their headshot accomplishment.

I'm still going to have to disagree on how hard it will be to hit someone. Heads get very small at 300m, and I definitely believe a lot of FPS players possess the skill to use a sniper to hit a body. That will be relatively easy once you get the hang of the mechanics. But the way I see it, the head is about 10% of the available area to aim at, so you're going to have to be a lot better than the average FPS player to consistently hit someone in the head.

To Everyone: If you currently play PlanetSide and consider yourself an average or better sniper, cert up and try to hit people in the head. You can normally see where the tracer bullet goes, and try to keep a percentage of how often you A) Miss, B)Hit, C)Hit the head.

I may be misjudging the skill of the community, but I'm thinking it's going to be a tad bit more difficult than you may think.

And as for targets standing still, you deserve to be shot in the head! This is a war, do NOT stand still!

[Talek Krell]

And as for targets standing still, you deserve to be shot in the head! This is a war, do NOT stand still!

It's worth considering that down that path lies bunny hopping. :p

[Furret]

Well A) You'll run out of stamina quickly, B) You'd have to bunny hop all the time because you never know when a sniper will take a shot at you, and C) Your COF will be so screwed up you'd be combat ineffective anyway. :D

So no, I don't think its worth considering.

[Graywolves]

From what I understand, sniper rifles will at least do bonus damage if not OSOK on headshots. And other weapons might do bonus damage to heads as well or the same damage as hitting someone in their chest.

With that said.

OSOK would only work with headshots from sniper rifles and only if they could not quick scope.

Vehicles is another story.


With thousands of players or even a hundred fighting over one point - having OSOK weapons makes the TTK average across the battlefield really short.

[Furret]

My point though, is that not everyone will be using a sniper rifle, and if they are, pull an MBT and roll over them all.

And I wouldn't complain if the rifles had sway like in MW2, but if you took the time to set up a bipod, you could get rid of the sway, and perhaps the scope could give you a hint as to where to aim. Of course, only if you took the 5-10 seconds to pull the bipod out of your inventory, set it up, found a target, and locked on.

Time for an awful paint diagram!

Edit:
http://img33.imageshack.us/img33/3517/smartscopezoomed.png (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/33/smartscopezoomed.png/)

This was my general idea of what the scope-in would look like.

This player is scoped in 4x, there's a 2 m/s wind blowing relatively to the southwest (assuming they're facing dead north), and their crosshairs are pointing at something 107.9 meters away.

This player has trained a lot in sniping and/or has certed a lot for sniping and has a bipod and a SmartScope (TM) that, after locking on, gives a general hint of where to aim at based on current direction, current wind, and current distance.

That's what the odd peachy thingy in the crosshairs means :D

[Talek Krell]

Ok, Planetside did do a good job of making bunny hopping comically ineffective. I guess I'm just wanting the first response to a sniper to be "take cover" rather than "zigzag". Not sure if I've really thought it through or anything...

As long as snipers are the exception instead of the rule, I think it can work. Sort of like adding salt to food.

[Furret]

Well taking cover would obviously be optimal, but there are going to be times where there is no cover. I'm sure if you've ever been shot at by a sniper you immediately zig zag to make yourself harder to hit, but then go find cover. I think it's fine the way it is, if there's no cover nearby, you've got to make yourself a hard target.

[exLupo]

I refer you to Counterstrike. If you have the choice between a OSOK gun or something else. It's a no brainer.

That's an issue with the weapon, not that it's OHK. Take, for example, TF2. Not only is its sniper rifle OHK it's based on a mod for the same engine Counterstrike. You would think if it were a 100% lock that everyone would go sniper it would be there but that is not the case.

Also look at every other game series with OHK sniper rifles. Tribes, BF, CoD and more. Only in Counterstrike did you still see that level of absurdity. While you do get players doing quickscope meatshots vs light targets in some games, the weapon still does not have the same blatant issues as you see in CS.

Just because something bad happened once doesn't mean every other relative instance is going to turn out the exact same.

[Furret]

On that note, sniping on TF2 is theoretically easy, every character's head is the same height, and when they run, their heads dont change altitude.

Of course, that's a lot more close range than we're hoping planetside will be, but my only point is that you overestimate the capabilities of snipers

[exLupo]

but my only point is that you overestimate the capabilities of snipers

When balancing, you really need to account for the top end. Look at the skill floor and ceiling as well as where most players land but if there's one guy wrecking entire teams due to one weapon, something's wrong.

It's way easier to fix something that's underpowered than overpowered. Both get you to the same place but while the former gets you love, the latter gets way more vocal hate.

There should never be a weapon, class, vehicle or role that can single-handedly ruin the fun of everybody else involved. Even if it's only possible by 1% of the userbase.

[Killerobe]

I do think that snipers should have OSK...its all about risk v reward too. If they have the same tracers making a harder shot at the head that you have a greater chance to miss and they discover your location.

No matter what happens people will find a way around it. How me and my friend did it in PS is we traveled together with voice chat...called out targets and shot at the same time creating the illusion of one shot kills. (and we got accused of cheating a lot) When in reality we were just very coordinated and both very decent snipers.

[Talek Krell]

We got less than half the sample size, but it looks like there's a significant trend toward being more open to it compared to the poll I copied (http://www.planetside-universe.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35881). Interesting bit of trivia at least. :)

[Sirisian]

We got less than half the sample size, but it looks like there's a significant trend toward being more open to it compared to the poll I copied (http://www.planetside-universe.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35881). Interesting bit of trivia at least. :)
The original poll was before we knew headshots were going to be in the game. The goal now is to make sure the developers don't put in OSKs. That change in tactics is what the poll is reflecting.

I too did the dual snipe on TS and it was a valid teamwork oriented thing. Imagine instead of that you just did it by yourself. This game shouldn't reward that playstyle.

[zuesrocks]

[QUOTE=DeeTwoEh;586248]More damage is acceptable.

One shot kill is just retarded.


i agree

[Erendil]

I too did the dual snipe on TS and it was a valid teamwork oriented thing. Imagine instead of that you just did it by yourself. This game shouldn't reward that playstyle.

This point by itself is enough for me to say no to 1S1K sniper shots. I loved the fact that in PS1 you had to work as a 2-man team to get instagib sniping ability. It was a beautiful way to reward teamwork and I bet most dedicated sniper vets in PS1 will tell you that sniping was pretty well balanced in general. From what I recall that's been the general consensus of people who've posted about sniping on the official forums ever since PS1 was released.

In an instanced game that has a limited-scale game map, a small number of players, a limited number of sniper's nests available, and "standard" assault rifles that have the same range as the sniper rifles, 1S1K snipers can work okay. But in an open-ended, persistent world with huge maps and 1000's of players where attacks can come at any time, from any direction, even far away from the front lines and possibly from a longer range than you're even capable of returning fire at, 1S1K is IMO too powerful.

That said, there are just too many unanswered questions about sniping and combat in general that we just don't know that could heavily influence how deadly/OP'd a 1S1K sniper headshot might be in PS2, like:


How accurate are PS2 sniper rifles in general, e.g. - when shooting a stationary target. If you can't accurately hit a stationary head-sized target @200m, is this even an issue?
Is long distance sniping feasible at night/during bad weather?
How much concealment will there be out in the field for snipers to hide in/behind (Bushes, permanent sniper nests on the map, etc)?
How do the max range and accuracy of assault rifles compare to sniper rifles? Can "regular" riflemen effectively fire back?
What other countermeasures are available to regular troops (e.g. smoke grenades, defense screens/shields, etc)?
what gear/skills/weapon attachments are available to snipers to make them harder to detect (e.g. camo gear, ghillie suits, sniper hides, flash suppressors, tracerless ammo, Infrared/night scopes for night shooting, etc)