Leaning

[SavageB]

Since third person is going to be removed from the game as we know( for the soldier anyways ), do you think leaning from left to right should be added? I was just thinking if Boomers for engie will be in the game, how is that gonna work now with no third person. Besides the obvious bating the enemy into the boomer.

How do you feel about a leaning mechanism in game?

(just used the boomer thing as an example, as its probably the most common use for the third person we have now in PS1, for the trigger man and victim)

[Baneblade]

There are Boomers around every corner. Why bother looking?

[EASyEightyEight]

I'd only accept a lean if it can't be done while moving or firing and made the model actually lean around the corner for me to pop a round or two into. I remember the days of Medal of Honor: Allied Assault and people would just spam lean-left/lean-right and they looked ****ing stupid running around and firing away like they had no spine.

[Huma]

Having a lean function when your next to a wall or obstacle sounds good to me. It would also replace the 3rd person and still provide as much an advantage.

[Lonehunter]

Only if you can't shoot while doing it.

I'm so glad 3rd person is gone. Seeing someone coming without exposing yourself doesn't need to be in a FPS

[razor851]

There are Boomers around every corner. Why bother looking?
Aww shit, son! You done said it.

[CutterJohn]

I hate leans. There are already too few keys within easy reach on a keyboard, using up two more to lean would make me sad.

[Sirisian]

I like this idea. If you can only do it while crouched though. Standing and leaning seems odd to me. I mean I can see it's use in a hallway but I'm not a fan of it.

[Graywolves]

With leaning I still imagine NC (mostly Higby, jk) sitting at the top of the stairwell with his Jackhammer and then just running down as soon as he sees someone and unloading in their face.

[FriendlyFire]

With leaning I still imagine NC (mostly Higby, jk) sitting at the top of the stairwell with his Jackhammer and then just running down as soon as he sees someone and unloading in their face.

Or TR waiting for the push, to spam the MCG...

Bring back the Lash and everything is balanced again.

[Tatwi]

I think lean is silly. It's a FPS - the bullets aren't real, so it's OK if you picked the wrong time to put yourself in the line of fire and someone killed you. Respawn and try again! I think crouching is good enough and standing is good enough for a first person shooter game.

[DviddLeff]

I wouldn't mind seeing lean in game, but I don't think its needed.

Third person can GTFO of the game however.

[Erendil]

I'd only accept a lean if it can't be done while moving or firing and made the model actually lean around the corner for me to pop a round or two into. I remember the days of Medal of Honor: Allied Assault and people would just spam lean-left/lean-right and they looked ****ing stupid running around and firing away like they had no spine.

LOL! I’d forgotten about penguin dodging in MOHAA! :lol: Funny as hell to watch, but yeah being able to lean back an forth while running and dodging was a broken game mechanic…

However, I for one absolutely love FPS’s that have a lean feature when it's done properly. Once again, I point to CoD2 for a good implementation.

With COD2’s lean you can both look and fire around the cover you’re hiding behind, but you expose your head and about 1/4 of your torso in doing so, so there is certainly an element of risk involved. Since PS2 will have headshots it makes it that much more dangerous since you’re literally sticking your neck out. Plus it's not instantaneous, so you expose yourself to enemy fire for at least 1/2 - 3/4 second - enough time to take a rifle burst to the face. :D

However, unlike in COD2, I agree that you shouldn’t be able to lean while on the move. But leaning should be possible either standing or crouching. Limiting it to just crouching makes no sense to me since people are quite capable of leaning while standing. Just watch any core-exercise or stretching routine and you’ll see it.

Lastly, as I implied above, IMO shooting should also be possible while leaning. It adds a vital tactical element to infantry combat and I find combat quite limiting in FPS games that don’t have it (including PS1) since it is such a basic, fundamental maneuver. And I for one find it incredibly fun to use (and to attack opponents that use it) in firefights since it adds to the challenge and variety of infantry combat.

So, I say yes to lean while standing or crouching, but not moving. And yes to firing while leaning.

[Bags]

They're going for faster paced combat I don't think they'll put lean in.

[Erendil]

They're going for faster paced combat I don't think they'll put lean in.

But they're also adding in more modern FPS elements as well and lean falls into that category. If they were only concerned about combat speed they wouldn't have put in ironsights, and probably not bullet drop or wind drift either.

I'm hoping they'll make a decision on lean based on whether or not it enriches the infantry combat experience, which IMO it does..

[Crator]

I hate leans. There are already too few keys within easy reach on a keyboard, using up two more to lean would make me sad.

So, SHIFT+Left/Right arrow key won't work?

[Surge72]

Personally I'd like it if they had leaning like in Arma2. It works perfectly.

Actually, if Planetside 2 followed the whole 'stances and leaning' from Arma2, that'd be awesome.

[Erendil]

Personally I'd like it if they had leaning like in Arma2. It works perfectly.

Actually, if Planetside 2 followed the whole 'stances and leaning' from Arma2, that'd be awesome.

Can u elaborate for those of us who've never played Arma2? How did they implement leaning/stances?

[Sirisian]

Can u elaborate for those of us who've never played Arma2? How did they implement leaning/stances?
This video explains a lot of it (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wXx3vMy_AQ#t=7m20s). The game has a very complex movement system.

[CutterJohn]

So, SHIFT+Left/Right arrow key won't work?

If you mean shift + A or D, that means taking away the strafe ability while crouched(or sprinting if its the sprint key).

If you mean the arrow keys.. thats all the way across the keyboard.

[Talek Krell]

I generally use C to toggle crouch, shift for sprint. I think ctrl is open though.

[Krowe]

BF:BC2 didn't need lean. I don't so why it should be added to PS2.

[Kouza]

This just allows for more camping imo.

[Zulthus]

This just allows for more camping imo.

It's a hell of a step foward from third person though.

[Erendil]

BF:BC2 didn't need lean. I don't so why it should be added to PS2.

By that token, PS1 didn't need a CoF system, nor the ability to crouch, nor weapon zoom on non-scoped weapons, etc. But SOE chose to include them because it introduces more tactical elements to infantry combat. It adds variety to the fight by giving characters different options in weapon characteristics and different playstyles/tactics that can be employed in a firefight.

A lean feature, if properly implemented, will do the same thing. It gives players more tactics to choose from, more ways to attack the enemy. Plus it adds a touch of realism without being overly complex, frustrating, or difficult to use by the players.

An extreme RL comparison might be drawn between, say, kickboxing and MMA fighting. Sure you could limit the fight to just a series of jabs, hooks, and the different types of kicks. But when you add in elbows, knees, arm/leg locks, choke holds, grappling, ground and pound, etc you end up with a match that is not only more tactically challenging for the fighters, but also one that is much more varied, interesting, and exciting to participate in.

I see elements like iron sights, sprinting, and the lean feature as taking a step in a similar direction, giving players more tactical options in a firefight, which leads to more varied, more broadly-skilled, and more challenging combat.

Remember: "...Allah loves wonderous variety..." - Azeem, Robin Hood: Prince of Thieves

[Crator]

If you mean shift + A or D, that means taking away the strafe ability while crouched(or sprinting if its the sprint key).

If you mean the arrow keys.. thats all the way across the keyboard.

Sorry, I did mean A or D. So make it Ctrl+A or D instead of Shift...

[Erendil]

In a standard WASD setup, the Q and E keys are great for lean left/right. My movement keys are shifted over 1 key to the right (so, ESDF instead of WASD), and W and R are my leans keys when playing games that have it (namely COD2). They also double as good roll keys for air combat. :D

[Crator]

Meh, give people the option to set it to what ever they want it to be. PS1 had so many keyboard options it was ridiculous.

[Blue]

I'd be more interested to see prone before leaning. If there are plenty of good cover objects then that's enough for me :D

[Zulthus]

I'd be more interested to see prone before leaning. If there are plenty of good cover objects then that's enough for me :D

Prone....no. Abused in so many games because of dolphin diving. I guess it'd be fine if only snipers could do it and it took 3-5 seconds to get into position...

[Erendil]

Prone....no. Abused in so many games because of dolphin diving. I guess it'd be fine if only snipers could do it and it took 3-5 seconds to get into position...

Like you implied, dolphin diving can be eliminated as a valid tactic if prone is implemented correctly. Dolphin diving is prevalent in those games because the move is almost instantaneous and it hardly affects your aim at all.

However, if it takes a couple of seconds to reach (or stand up from) the prone position and makes your CoF (or whatever PS2's equivalent is) GIGANTIC until a second or two after you're completely prone, dolphin diving wouldn't be of much use other than a weak attempt at dodging. But it would still allow the prone position itself to be useful once you've settled into the prone position.

So, as you can probably guess, yes, I'd like to see prone implemented as well. It would be another tactical maneuver we could add to our arsenal, creating yet more variety in combat. However, limiting it to snipers doesn't make much sense to me. Either all (non-MAX) infantry should be able to use it, or none.

[Bags]

Prone isn't in PS2 (thankfully).

[Erendil]

AFAI know the only thing they've said is that there are "No plans for prone currently." That's not the same thing as "No, we will not be implementing prone."

Besides, this is pre-beta. If enough people ask for prone and back up their request with reasonable arguments for it, SOE might still put it in.

Incidentally, why "thankfully?"

[Bags]

Because it slows down the game and is pointless, like leaning. PS1 didn't need them, PS2 doesn't need them. Just encourages sniper camping.

[Zulthus]

Because it slows down the game and is pointless, like leaning. PS1 didn't need them, PS2 doesn't need them. Just encourages sniper camping.

Expected an answer like this. I'm not saying I'm for prone either, but it isn't pointless, just as leaning isn't. It provides tactical advantage over people just running and gunning through halls. You're right, PS2 doesn't need it. But I guess it wouldn't hurt if implemented right.

And snipers are...supposed to camp...you know that, right?

[Bags]

They don't need buffs; they were fine in PS1.

[Death2All]

So long as I can hit "Q" or "Numlock" to autorun I'll be happy.

The walk to the equipment terminal is rather long.

[CutterJohn]

But I guess it wouldn't hurt if implemented right.

It would hurt it if the game wasn't supposed to be a lean out from doorways and fire from cover type of game.

As bags says, it would slow down gameplay, make it more of a tactical shooter. PS is rather run & gun. It took inspiration from tribes, not.. umm.. rainbow six i guess? Can't recall any other tactical shooters from that era.

[Zulthus]

It would hurt it if the game wasn't supposed to be a lean out from doorways and fire from cover type of game.

As bags says, it would slow down gameplay, make it more of a tactical shooter. PS is rather run & gun. It took inspiration from tribes, not.. umm.. rainbow six i guess? Can't recall any other tactical shooters from that era.

Honestly, I really, really want an example of how something like leaning would slow down a game. How? Third person slows the game down more than leaning.

[Crator]

It won't slow down the game-play to any significant degree imo.

[SavageB]

Because it slows down the game and is pointless, like leaning. PS1 didn't need them, PS2 doesn't need them. Just encourages sniper camping.

That's what snipers do....even in PS1...I dont see how lean is gonna make more campers in the game, it will give u an advantage just as third person does now.

[Bags]

That's what snipers do....even in PS1...I dont see how lean is gonna make more campers in the game, it will give u an advantage just as third person does now.

Bags: Prone encourages/buffs sniper camping
Savage: LEAN DOESN'T HELP SNIPERS WTF?

[SavageB]

Bags: Prone encourages/buffs sniper camping
Savage: LEAN DOESN'T HELP SNIPERS WTF?

Dont get sniped bags....Snipers cant do much in a base. I understand why your mad.

[Krowe]

Dont get sniped bags....Snipers cant do much in a base. I understand why your mad.

And you just made yourself look like a massive idiot.

[Blue]

Because it slows down the game and is pointless, like leaning. PS1 didn't need them, PS2 doesn't need them. Just encourages sniper camping.

I am not a sniper, and i've always found it way to easy to pin point snipers because their only means of good cover comes from either bailing onto a cement tree, or just moving up and down while crouched behind a mountain. I think realistically that doesn't make sense for a sniper. If there was a couple second animation time for proning and setting up your bolt driver, it would give the sniper a way of being almost completely still.

Plus, if they are implementing hitboxes, then snipers are going to need more skill to be aiming for headshots because if you hit the person in their limbs or even torso it's not going to do as much damage in ps1.

But back to leaning... did anyone play rainbow6 3? i vaguely remember leaning being highly abused because of something with the polygons and whatnot. even though that was in console, is that something that could be avoided if they put in leaning?

[Sovereign]

So long as it doesn't translate into an auto cover system I would vehemently abhor, this could work.

As long as it doesn't result in some poorly construed contrivance like corner sniping(think cornershot the famed device made by the Israeli military) where the sniper has no risk of exposure at all. Don't think that should ever be the case.

[Tatwi]

I think realistically...

That's your problem.

Planetside is a game. Games are fun. In a game, fun mechanics are more important than simulated realism. It's a game, it can never be real, but can be fun.

[Blue]

That's your problem.

Planetside is a game. Games are fun. In a game, fun mechanics are more important than simulated realism. It's a game, it can never be real, but can be fun.

I think they can be one in the same. Look at all the people who want veh enter/exit animations. It's realistic to have it take a little while to board a gunship or tank, and the visuals help keep both fun mechanics and realism.

For me, it's unrealistic and takes away from the fun, when i can almost immidiately locate the sniper who just tagged my shoulder, because you can see his crouched siluhuette in the distance.

Realistic IS fun.

Why do you think they are working on weather to play a major role in the game? Why do you think they are going to use hitboxes?? because it's unrealistic, and IMHO not fun if my hand is poking out of a crowded cover area, and a sniper takes away 80% of my health by barely hitting my pinky

On the flipside... it can be hard to implement more "realistic" features in a game that doesn't incorporate very many. Having less features can force people to be more tactical and avoid features being abused

[NewSith]

With OSOK HS for snipers prone would not be that overpowered. Because proned sniper is an easy target to headkill.

Even more, with OSOK HS, counter-sniping will be just a waaaaay too easy. Something like - Sniper shoots, another sniper takes him down. Instantly. Plus let's take ping difference in consideration and we'll get one hell lot of underpowering.

Just if make prone like in Star Wars: Battlefront, where there is an actual animation for it, at time of which you can't shoot.

[Bags]

I think they can be one in the same. Look at all the people who want veh enter/exit animations. It's realistic to have it take a little while to board a gunship or tank, and the visuals help keep both fun mechanics and realism.


People don't care about the animations so much as the delay.

[Crator]

Delay without animations would look/feel odd though.

[Bags]

Delay without animations would look/feel odd though.

Uh, I dunno about you but my car's engine takes a second or two to start up. I'd assume military vehicles aren't that much faster.

[Crator]

^^^ Uh, you didn't saying anything about turning on the vehicle. So in the future I'd imagine there would be remote start capabilities. No wait for turning on the car now :) We have that tech today in real life.

[Bags]

^^^ Uh, you didn't saying anything about turning on the vehicle. So in the future I'd imagine there would be remote start capabilities. No wait for turning on the car now :) We have that tech today in real life.

Realism != fun in all cases.

[basti]

So, we now have leaning corner campers instead of 3rd person corner campers?
HELL NO!
No to guys camping everywhere instead of pushing, period.

[Crator]

^^^ Uh, you didn't saying anything about turning on the vehicle. So in the future I'd imagine there would be remote start capabilities. No wait for turning on the car now :) We have that tech today in real life.

Realism != fun in all cases.

Hmmm, not sure how your statement pertains to mine.

[Raymac]

So, we now have leaning corner campers instead of 3rd person corner campers?
HELL NO!
No to guys camping everywhere instead of pushing, period.

I was thinking the same thing. Why remove 3rd person wall humping only to replace it with leaning wall humping? They arn't exactly the same, but close enough.

However, when I'm defending a base, I'll pick a spot with good cover and camp like the unabomber. There is a time and a place for defending / "camping" in Planetside, but thats different than wall humping.

[Zulthus]

I was thinking the same thing. Why remove 3rd person wall humping only to replace it with leaning wall humping? They arn't exactly the same, but close enough.

However, when I'm defending a base, I'll pick a spot with good cover and camp like the unabomber. There is a time and a place for defending / "camping" in Planetside, but thats different than wall humping.

Because if someone is camping, you can see him. Instead of being invulnerable and getting the drop on someone from behind a wall, you're taking a risk to peek out to see if someone is coming. You're vulnerable. So much better than third person IMO.

[Raymac]

Because if someone is camping, you can see him. Instead of being invulnerable and getting the drop on someone from behind a wall, you're taking a risk to peek out to see if someone is coming. You're vulnerable. So much better than third person IMO.

Sure you're kinda vulnerable, part of you and for only a split second. I would hardly call that much of an improvement over 3rd person wall humping. It doesn't take a highly skilled player to sit at a corner and flick "lean" every once in awhile to see what is coming without really exposing yourself at all, unless the enemy has jedi-quick reflexes.

Better? Maybe. "So much better"? Thats a stretch. What I think would be "so much better" is if you have to actually step out around the corner exposing your whole body if you want to see around a corner, hence no leaning.

[Zulthus]

Sure you're kinda vulnerable, part of you and for only a split second. I would hardly call that much of an improvement over 3rd person wall humping. It doesn't take a highly skilled player to sit at a corner and flick "lean" every once in awhile to see what is coming without really exposing yourself at all, unless the enemy has jedi-quick reflexes.

Better? Maybe. "So much better"? Thats a stretch. What I think would be "so much better" is if you have to actually step out around the corner exposing your whole body if you want to see around a corner, hence no leaning.

Well yeah, but you don't see what's happening 24/7 like you can with third person. So it's definitely better already. I think even exposing yourself for a second is an improvement because you aren't invulnerable like you are when you wallhump.

Leaning could be balanced to where it takes a second or two to get into position, I don't know. Put your hand on the wall and hold your gun with one hand, making your CoF bloom like mad. Then it takes another two seconds to get out of position. I think that'd make it so people wouldn't use it for camping as much.

[Raymac]

Well yeah, but you don't see what's happening 24/7 like you can with third person. So it's definitely better already. I think even exposing yourself for a second is an improvement because you aren't invulnerable like you are when you wallhump.

Leaning could be balanced to where it takes a second or two to get into position, I don't know. Put your hand on the wall and hold your gun with one hand, making your CoF bloom like mad. Then it takes another two seconds to get out of position. I think that'd make it so people wouldn't use it for camping as much.

I think the only way to make it different from 3rd person now is to do some sort of contrived mechanic to slow down the time to use lean as you suggest, but even that almost feels like a solution thats looking for a problem.

Even with that mechanic, you would need a delay on poking your head back in because it takes a hell of alot less time to let go of the lean button than it does to locate a target that is leaning, aim correctly, and then click to fire. That doesn't make you very vulnerable except that the enemy would know for certain that someone is around the corner instead of just assuming there is.

It just feels like the results are too similar to 3rd person wall humping, and I just think strafing around the corner to look is more fair and less prone to abuse.

[Zulthus]

Yeah, I'm just basing off of if lean was actually being implemented. But tbh, I'd rather keep both third-person and lean out.

[Sirisian]

I don't get it. So how is leaning and exposing yourself to the enemy similar to 3rd person? The alternative of leaning is just moving so you can see then moving back quickly. As long as I can see them when they see me it's fine. I'll take a grenade or punisher and shoot it at them. We both saw each other and can react so it's fair.

[Erendil]

I think the only way to make it different from 3rd person now is to do some sort of contrived mechanic to slow down the time to use lean as you suggest, but even that almost feels like a solution thats looking for a problem.

Even with that mechanic, you would need a delay on poking your head back in because it takes a hell of alot less time to let go of the lean button than it does to locate a target that is leaning, aim correctly, and then click to fire. That doesn't make you very vulnerable except that the enemy would know for certain that someone is around the corner instead of just assuming there is.

It just feels like the results are too similar to 3rd person wall humping, and I just think strafing around the corner to look is more fair and less prone to abuse.

The results are not that similar to 3rdPV camping, not by a long shot. When using 3rdPV, not only are you 100% hidden from view and 100% invulnerable to direct fire, but you also get a constant view of the area in front of you for as long as you want so you'll get instantaneous updates at all times on all enemy positions and movements within your FoV. You can take all the time you need to pinpoint and track every enemy in front of you that is not completely hidden from your expanded birds-eye camera view.

But with a properly implemented lean, not only are you in direct sight of the enemy, but you are exposing your head and shoulders to direct enemy fire for every second you're leaning. You don't get the increased FoV that an elevated 3rdPV camera gives you, and if you use it just to take a quick peek, you only get a quick snapshot in time of the area in front of you.

That tiny window in time makes it quite difficult to spot and locate every single enemy within view much less tell if they've spotted you or give you any more than a general idea of where they are headed. And that's assuming they don't decide to stop or changes directions after you duck back around the corner. Plus, If you want a better idea of where they're going, you have to keep your head stuck out, which gives away your position and exposes you to enemy fire for the whole duration.

IMO a properly implemented lean would work something like this: It takes about 1/2-3/4 sec to stick your head out, and a similar amount of time to duck back around the corner. While leaning your head and 1/4 of your torso become exposed to enemy fire, and it takes a moment for your CoF to settle before you can take an accurate shot so you can't peek/shoot/duck back around the corner in one quick movement.

So at a mimimum you be be exposing yourself to 1.5 - 2 secs worth enemy fire, which is more than enough time to get killed if the enemy has even a rough idea where you're hiding.

In addition, PS2 has many features that will make it less effective than a lean would've been in PS1, and/or less effective than the lean you might've experienced in other games. They are:


Iron Sights, making weapons more accurate than PS1
Increased Weapon Lethality, allowing you to kill a leaner before he can duck back behind cover
Headshots, the bane of leaners everywhere
Real-time lighting and shadows, which could give you away if there's a light source behind/beside you. Ever seen the ending airport scene in the movie Heat?
Sprint, Allowing you to quickly move from cover to cover and close the distance on or flank a camping opponent unseen when they're not leaning
VEHICLES, which eat stationary softies for breakfast



The above features will all serve to keep the power of leaning in check, either by counteracting the benefits of a lean feature (#1-4), or by helping to flush out an opponent whom you feel is using lean a little too much for your tastes (#5 and 6).

[Kouza]

It's a hell of a step foward from third person though.

When Armstrong hit the moon did he say that one big step for mankind? Why not make a giant leap? noob... Leaning, will lead to some sort of exploit.

[Zulthus]

When Armstrong hit the moon did he say that one big step for mankind? Why not make a giant leap? noob... Leaning, will lead to some sort of exploit.

First off, what the hell are you talking about? Second, why am I a noob? Third, give me some possible exploits there could be to leaning to back up your statement.

[exLupo]

That's your problem.

Planetside is a game. Games are fun. In a game, fun mechanics are more important than simulated realism. It's a game, it can never be real, but can be fun.

I really need to macro this shit.

Surrealism: Rez (Completely different from meatspace)
Non-simulation realism: PlanetSide (Grounded in meatspace with speculated elements)
Simulation realism: ARMA (An attempt to bring gaming as close to meatspace as possible)

You can ask for realism without asking for simulations. As long as you're using guns, you're asking for some level of realism. If you're completely anti-realism, PlanetSide is not for you.

@Erendil - you do a good job of selling lean. My concerns really just amounted to "3pv in PS1 is a trash mechanic" and your version makes the leaner really vulnerable. Still not sure I want it (probably not from a gameplay streamlining perspective) but my active not-want is smaller.

[SavageB]

When Armstrong hit the moon did he say that one big step for mankind? Why not make a giant leap? noob... Leaning, will lead to some sort of exploit.

There are plenty of exploits in a lot of games....its called patching it..

[Hamma]

While leaning is cool I've only seen it in a few games. If the plan is to make PlanetSide 2 more fast paced I really don't think something like leaning around corners is a good fit.

[BorisBlade]

So, we now have leaning corner campers instead of 3rd person corner campers?
HELL NO!
No to guys camping everywhere instead of pushing, period.

Thats not the same thing at all man. Havin said that i honestly dont care about leaning. Third person means they can see you without any risk to themselves and you have no idea they are there and know you are comin. A lean is just a variant on strafing out enough to see and fire then strafin back. To see whats goin on or to shoot you have to put yourself at risk with a lean. With third person you can see just fine and stay safely hidden.

Again i dont care either way, it doesnt add much really. Plus we have enough buttons to worry about, dont really need anymore. And if you arent adding prone, then you dont need this. And as others have said, prone is perfectly fine, the bad implementation in several games (dolphin diving etc) are the problem, not the prone position itself.

Also, there is no camping in PS, sorry to burst your bubble. Its defending, and it should be done. If people arent ever defending or as you call it camping, then they are playing wrong.

[FriendlyFire]

Take out 3rdPPV, don't put in lean, and let the Lasher lash those camping newbs.