Dual-Wielding

[Zulthus]

Felt like popping out an idea after I saw the cloakers/two holster thread. What would you all think about being able to dual-wield pistols or light rifles? Being specialized in it is a must, of course.

[Talek Krell]

I think that if you start running now, you may be able to escape the artillery. :rolleyes:

[Zulthus]

In this battlefield? You can't escape it no matter how far you run.

[Bravix]

Alright, I'll start it off then.

GTFO.

[Huma]

Alright, I'll start it off then.

GTFO.

This

[Aractain]

Dual weild cyclers!

Oh wait... they did that already.

[Furret]

I think it's safe to say you wont get much support on that topic.

I'm pretty sure most people prefer weapons that require skill instead of hoping the COF will be nice to you.

Akimbo/Dual Wield does NOT require skill

[Brusi]

Only if you take the rambo cert, or the jenna jameson cert...

[Graywolves]

Dual weild cyclers!

Oh wait... they did that already.

Rip dual-cycler's off of the MAX suit and equip them on your agile exo suit.

[Zulthus]

Hey, I'm not looking for support, I don't really care for the idea myself, I wanted to see what everyone else thought. ;)

[Sirisian]

I love the idea of dual wielding guns. Pistols included. If you have two slots and put pistols in both of them I don't see why not.

I loved them in L4D actually where left and right mouse button went for their respective gun. So cool. The game needs more cool stuff.

The people that tend to hate these ideas are the same that want all guns to be boring. If you think this is too cool or overpowered it can be balanced like anything else in the game.

Also this needs a poll. I agree though. A lot of veterans here are stubborn to new ideas. Don't worry about it. Just focus on the discussion.

[Erendil]

I like the idea of dual-wielding pistols at least. Not any other weapon though.

However, it should come w/ a big penalty. I'd say:


you can't use ironsights on either pistol while dual-wielding,
if they're semi-auto pistols, the RoF of each pistol would be slightly slower than firing just one pistol (although you'd still more more lead in the air overall than just one),
your CoF (or whatever the PS2 equivalent is) would be bigger as well.
Plus reloading would be a bitch. Imo you'd have to either drop or holster one of the pistols to reload the other, and vice versa.

[Huma]

I'm sorry but ive played plenty of games with this feature. All it encourages is spamming nublets who just dw the flavor of the month hand gun. I'd much rather have using a pistol take skill like it does now.

[Talek Krell]

I love the idea of dual wielding guns. Pistols included.

I love how he includes pistols, so presumably he's starting out with dual wield jackhammers. :rofl:

[Death2All]

I thought dual wielding was neat when they put it in Halo 2 but it raised a lot of problems regarding balance. The weapon may be perfectly balance alone, but doubling the firepower makes it a nightmare to balance. Especially with all the other weapon combinations.

But that's Halo 2 and this is Planetside 2 so who knows. Considering that they're allowing thousands of skill trees for customizing weapons the possibility that you might be able to dual wield weapons still lingers.

Personally, I don't care. Most people generally hate it though. Just saying.

[Valdae]

I like duel wielding in games like Halo, and even in Black Ops. Not sure if it would work so well in Planetside. It seems ironic, but the idea of it is kinda outlandish. :-/

[CutterJohn]

Dual wield was useful for a couple hundred years, when pistols took forever to reload and had very limited shots.

Dual wield on modern automatic pistols is an invention of hollywood, nothing more. 9 times out of ten a guy using a pistol with a proper grip will kill a guy trying to use 2 pistols. Can aim better, compensate for recoil better, reload faster.

Still, I wouldn't mind it being an option. Higher rof, far, far worse cof, and a horrid reload speed. Useful for up close work perhaps.

[Sirisian]

I'm sorry but ive played plenty of games with this feature. All it encourages is spamming nublets who just dw the flavor of the month hand gun. I'd much rather have using a pistol take skill like it does now.
So having two guns means it can't take skill to use them. Having a single gun makes it a skilled weapon. Adding two suddenly takes that away. Interesting hypothesis. I'm gonna ignore that idea though and assume it can be balanced like anything else in a game. Shooting down a possibly cool idea because of hypothetical worst case scenarios is a bit silly.

I love the idea of dual wielding guns. Pistols included.
I love how he includes pistols, so presumably he's starting out with dual wield jackhammers. :rofl:
:) I knew someone would enjoy that. Yeah I like the idea of dual wielding most guns. If the game has heavy assault again obviously there can be limits. Actually dual wielding AV would be cool in my book. I mean if you want to specialize and fill holster slots with that kind of thing it's a pretty nice tactic. Still gotta reload but you could hit them hard.

Okay here's how I imagine it. Dual reticule system. If you fire with the left then the left reticule goes up and doesn't affect the right one. Fire rate is slowed by a little bit and the amount of bloom goes up.

I can tell you right now if I saw someone with dual medium assault in their hands just laying down fire then run out of ammo and throw those onto their back in one motion and pull pistols I'd say we'd have a badass game.

Obviously they'd need to reload, but it would be epic. Imagine you saw someone coming at you with dual weapons you could probably use a single gun and hit them a few times pretty easily from afar since they'd be required to control their bloom for each gun. Definitely balanceable even if it requires lowering the damage artificially per gun and per combination of guns.

I could see a matrix for each gun combination. Like pistol + medium assault and such. As you can tell I'm a huge fan of complexity in games.

// Edit also the system wouldn't change much. Hitting 1 then 2 would equal your two guns. Hitting 1 then 3 would equip say an MA you have in that holster then pull a pistol depending on the armor. yeah epic. Can you imagine seeing that during a fight where someone is cycling guns for tactics.

// Edit also watch this (http://youtu.be/6pTGXUig6lY). Scene from one of the coolest gun movies ever.

[exLupo]

If you can dual wield there will be no use for HOT SWAPPIGN BEAMERS. That is clearly not a PlanetSide any of us would ever want to play.

[Brusi]

I like the idea of being able to pull out your pistol and shoot with it while still holding your assault rifle or sniper in your left hand, rather than it magically dissapearing into your ass while your pistol is equipped ;p

Shooting two assault rifles is a cool idea, but i think would only be balanced with a mega accuracy nerf to be viable.

Also, i would hate for it to be the logical upgrade for all grunts. Perhaps if you couldn't spawn with two guns, but could equip a defeated enemies weapon in your off-hand after looting it. Something to make a guy with two guns be a survivor.

mechanic: run up to the corpse of the 5th person you've killed w/o a death and loot his corpse for off-hand weapon upgrade. More of a trophy upgrade and side-grade than a direct damage/rof upgrade.

[Peacemaker]

Wanna dual wield pistols? Fine, but like stated it should take more than double the reload of just one pistol. The CoF should be insane. Knife disabled.

No friggen way on dual wielding assault rifles. Go try to dual wield M4s. Or maybe (just to make things hollywood realistic) MAC10s or UZIs. Does not work. At all. If its pistols ok, but nothing else.

Now, if Grenades are something you must equip again, then I think it would be fair to beable to left hand a grenade and shoot a pistol with the right hand, this would still cause you to incur an accuracy penalty because shooting one handed IS less accurate.

[Zulthus]

Dual Weilding M249 Machine Guns - YouTube

Realistic enough for me

[FIREk]

PS2's art design looks very reasonable and militaristic. Akimbo is none of these things. ;)

[Huma]

Theory? Have you ever played a game with akimbo? Let's see you face diwn some idiot dual wielding anything and call it skill. All you get with it is a high volume of fire and hip fire spraying. The only skill involved is pointing your cross hairs and laying down the trigger. Go play black ops or modern warfare and try it on for size then tell me it's worth something.

[2coolforu]

Duel wielding doesn't work simply because the weapons you can use it with are typically close range anyway, a pistol isn't a long range weapon and at the ranges you use them you don't need to look down the sights. Therefore sacrificing aiming to do double the damage isn't really a fair sacrifice as you take a minor disadvantage for a huge increase in DPS.

It also creates balance hell as a gun dual wielded can be very different to its single relative. A few examples I can think of is the days of dual Glock-18's in MW2, the months of dual Model-1887's, The plasma-pistol + normal pistol combo in Halo 2+3.

[kaffis]

I love how he includes pistols, so presumably he's starting out with dual wield jackhammers. :rofl:
You're aiming low. I'm starting with dual wield rocklet rifles, with original alt-fire.

[Bravix]

Despite what Black Ops shows you, the military doesn't train it's soldier to dual wield and that's for one simple reason: It's stupid.

You ever try shooting two .45 caliber pistols at the same time? Sure, you can hit a target (close range) on your first volley...after that, good luck. Since you're using one hand it takes FAR longer to recover from the shot and regain your 'aim' (if you can call it that when you aren't looking down the sights). So unless you're willing to wait a period of time after each shot, you'll have extremely shitty CoF.

On the other hand, using a single pistol I can aim down the sights and squeeze of multiple shots with fair accuracy at a medium range.

Simply put, using one pistol is superior to using two at the same time. Sure, go ahead and implement it, but make it realistic. I wanna kill those CoD noobs who are spraying fire and wondering why they aren't hitting anything.

[Sirisian]

Despite what Black Ops shows you, the military doesn't train it's soldier to dual wield and that's for one simple reason: It's stupid.

You ever try shooting two .45 caliber pistols at the same time? Sure, you can hit a target (close range) on your first volley...after that, good luck. Since you're using one hand it takes FAR longer to recover from the shot and regain your 'aim' (if you can call it that when you aren't looking down the sights). So unless you're willing to wait a period of time after each shot, you'll have extremely shitty CoF.

On the other hand, using a single pistol I can aim down the sights and squeeze of multiple shots with fair accuracy at a medium range.

Simply put, using one pistol is superior to using two at the same time. Sure, go ahead and implement it, but make it realistic. I wanna kill those CoD noobs who are spraying fire and wondering why they aren't hitting anything.
Why are you bringing realism into this? Think about the gameplay aspect. Stop trying to ruin a science-fiction game by making it the next Call of Battlefield. If something can be added that's cool and can be balanced into the game it doesn't need to be 100% realistic to Earth's physics.

[Graywolves]

Why are you bringing realism into this? Think about the gameplay aspect. Stop trying to ruin a science-fiction game by making it the next Call of Battlefield. If something can be added that's cool and can be balanced into the game it doesn't need to be 100% realistic to Earth's physics.

Dual-wielding is cool when that guy in the movies does it.

It's cool when you do it on single player or when you're the only one doing it.

When I see 30 people (we all know that's a low number for even the backdoor) doing it I just think it's dumb.


So you should only be able to dual-wield if you get the skill and are certified in Equilibrium.

[Zulthus]

Despite what Black Ops shows you, the military doesn't train it's soldier to dual wield and that's for one simple reason: It's stupid.

You ever try shooting two .45 caliber pistols at the same time? Sure, you can hit a target (close range) on your first volley...after that, good luck. Since you're using one hand it takes FAR longer to recover from the shot and regain your 'aim' (if you can call it that when you aren't looking down the sights). So unless you're willing to wait a period of time after each shot, you'll have extremely shitty CoF.

On the other hand, using a single pistol I can aim down the sights and squeeze of multiple shots with fair accuracy at a medium range.

Simply put, using one pistol is superior to using two at the same time. Sure, go ahead and implement it, but make it realistic. I wanna kill those CoD noobs who are spraying fire and wondering why they aren't hitting anything.

You must have one or both of the following;

A. You know nothing about guns
B. Your forearms are made of jelly.

I go to my local range often and I shoot a multitude of guns. Some I dual wield, some I hold one with both hands. It isn't at all as hard as you seem to make it. If you actually exercise your forearms, you can even dual wield Desert Eagles with relative ease and above average accuracy. Here's a demonstration for you.

desert eagle - YouTube

Even SMGs are very possible.

Dual Full Autos - UZI and M11 - YouTube

Now, you are completely right saying that one pistol is more accurate than two. However, you are wrong saying that one is superior to two. (In certain cases, of course... indoors, dual pistols would rape a single one.) It really sounds like you ARE basing your entire argument off of "Black Ops". Dual wielding guns IRL is not nearly as hard as you seem to think it is.

[Graywolves]

You must have one or both of the following;

A. You know nothing about guns
B. Your forearms are made of jelly.

I go to my local range often and I shoot a multitude of guns. Some I dual wield, some I hold one with both hands. It isn't at all as hard as you seem to make it. If you actually exercise your forearms, you can even dual wield Desert Eagles with relative ease and above average accuracy. Here's a demonstration for you.


Even SMGs are very possible.


Now, you are completely right saying that one pistol is more accurate than two. However, you are wrong saying that one is superior to two. (In certain cases, of course... indoors, dual pistols would rape a single one.) It really sounds like you ARE basing your entire argument off of "Black Ops". Dual wielding guns IRL is not nearly as hard as you seem to think it is.


He was speaking military standards and training. Obviously you can dual wield alot of things. But how many targets can you accuratley hit and up to how many meters?

In Dual wielding you give up stability, accuracy, and reload for rate of fire.

[Zulthus]

He was speaking military standards and training. Obviously you can dual wield alot of things. But how many targets can you accuratley hit and up to how many meters?

In Dual wielding you give up stability, accuracy, and reload for rate of fire.

The only mention of military was him saying it was stupid in their opinion. The amount of targets you could accurately hit is dependent on you. If you have no strength, sure, the guns will fly everywhere. If you actually exercise, you can hold them straight and they will hit their desired target. You don't have to give up much stability or accuracy for dual wielding if you're good. Reload times increased? Of course. What I think is dual wielding guns would be useful indoors for the people that specialize in it, but next to useless outdoors since everybody is at range.

[Sirisian]

In Dual wielding you give up stability, accuracy, and reload for rate of fire.
Exactly. :)


So you should only be able to dual-wield if you get the skill
Well it's also based on armor choices and class. If you lack two holsters for instance you can't do it. I also I agree about requiring a skill since it fits with the normal skill tree system. (Could be a skill in the weapon tree itself).

Also regarding your other comment about everyone doing it. That argument needs to stop. The whole "What if 50 people do it because there aren't any other choices in the game" are a worse case scenario. If the game adds tons of cool choices people will be too busy to decide which loadout is the coolest or most useful.

[Nephilimuk]

It takes something really stupid to make me come out of retirement

This is a troll right?

[Raymac]

I think dual pistols as an unlockable skill would be pretty cool, but only pistols. Dual wielding HA or AV is just silly, but pistols could be cool.

[Sirisian]

Oh also this would be a nice skill-upgrade down the pistol tree.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A9f-wgBXJ2E#t=1m28s

[Zulthus]

I think dual pistols as an unlockable skill would be pretty cool, but only pistols. Dual wielding HA or AV is just silly, but pistols could be cool.

Yeah, pistols is all I was going for. Make them useful for a change.

[Talek Krell]

Why are you assuming that they won't be useful? Battlefield's pistols work just fine without anyone having to pretend they're in the matrix.

The theme of the game is militaristic science fiction. You play a soldier, not a movie star. If you want to be effective at close range then pull a shotgun.

[Crator]

Allowing the player base to make stupid choices in certifications/training. That is an interesting thought. I actually like the idea for the "cool" factor. But yes, it should have major restrictions on it like others have said here. It could be impliemented to be so stupid, as far as how gimped you are when you do it, that you would be looked upon as a dim-wit if you did use it. But why is that a bad thing. Putting a little bit of role-play into the game isn't bad at all.

[Sovereign]

Yeah because dual wielding chain guns is a feasible practical endeavor, who needs maxes...


No thanks, I don't want this to turn into duke nukem. :lol:

[Tatwi]

http://i00.i.aliimg.com/photo/v0/51237418/Flux_MIG_Welding_Machine_MARS_180_welder.jpg

Duel-Welding! Wicked idea for Engineers man!!

[Zulthus]

Why are you assuming that they won't be useful? Battlefield's pistols work just fine without anyone having to pretend they're in the matrix.

The theme of the game is militaristic science fiction. You play a soldier, not a movie star. If you want to be effective at close range then pull a shotgun.

Why are you assuming dual wielding won't be useful? It works both ways, buddy. I don't know why you pulled the matrix out of your ass, either. Nothing to do with the topic. Nothing to do with movies, either. Dual wielding doubles your firepower at the expense of your accuracy and RoF. Simple. Also, why not be effective at close range with two pistols?

[Raymac]

Duel-Welding! Wicked idea for Engineers man!!

I didn't want to laugh, but you got me on that one. :lol:

[Talek Krell]

pistols is all I was going for. Make them useful for a change.
Your argument implies that pistols would not be useful. My argument implies that dual wielding clashes with the overarching style of the game. It does not, in fact, work both ways.

I don't know why you pulled the matrix out of your ass, either. Nothing to do with the topic. Nothing to do with movies, either.

I pulled the matrix "out of my ass" because the only argument I've heard that's in favor of dual wielding so far is "because it's cool". Which is the reason it regularly, as Sirisian has repeatedly pointed out (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6pTGXUig6lY&feature=youtu.be), appears in cinema.

[Sentrosi]

What about down a pilots skill tree the cert to dual wield pistols opens up?
I could see a use for that. Most modern day pilots carry either a .45 or a 9mm pistol, and that's it. They never carry anything larger than that. So I could see a use for a dual pistol slot opening up.

[Zulthus]

Your argument implies that pistols would not be useful. My argument implies that dual wielding clashes with the overarching style of the game. It does not, in fact, work both ways.


Mind deliberating on how you think dual wielding would clash with the overarching style of the game?

[Bravix]

Bahaha, I love how the two videos that were linked don't show a single view of the target. Let me break down each video individually.

First video is of two desert eagles. Alright. Lets see, first thing I notice is that he isn't shooting them at the same time, as opposed to most games where you're able to shoot both pistols simultaneously. This is giving him a slower RoF but increased accuracy as it gives each arm more time to re-adjust. Sure, he's able to maintain what appears to be fairly stable shots (vertically at least, I can't see the horizontal sway). However, Mr. Gun Range (I literally lol'd when you brought up the fact that you go to gun ranges as support for your argument) as I'm sure you're well aware, the slightest deviation of aim makes a huge difference at any reasonable range. The refire rate is at the most slightly higher in this video than that of a single pistol (he appears to become more confident and shoots faster after the first few rounds). He's essentially sacrificing a HUGE amount of accuracy and effective range for double the amount of available rounds. As I said before, if it's similar to this, I'm fine with it. Only time it'll be useful is at near-point blank range, by which point my sweeper will have tore their face apart.

To add onto the first video, note his stance. That is NOT a normal firing stance. I have no idea why he's leaned back that far, but I'd like to see him run around in a base like that lol.


The second video I just won't go too far into. He's going akimbo with two machine pistols (Edit: My mistake, upon review only one appears to be a machine pistol). Big deal, his accuracy is shit. Again, not a single view of his target (or if he even had one for that matter). It's not a question of if its possible to dual wield, but of it's effectiveness. If the devs implemented it and didn't do so in a realistic fashion (for example making them more accurate than they should be) it would become ridiculous.

It's also important to note that the people shown in this video are standing still. As with any gun, moving decreases one's accuracy even further. However, that effect is multiplied when one's ability to stabilize the gun with two hands is compromised.

Edit: I swear that wasn't a wall of text when I typed it lol. I think I rambled too long.

[Talek Krell]

The theme of Planetside is a sort of militaristic sci-fi. It's not strictly tied to reality, but it remains close. Most of the equipment you see in it are things that a modern military would use if they had the technology and understanding required. Some of it is being researched and developed already (rail guns, powered exo-armor). The game favors squad tactics and practicality over heroism and hollywood spectacle. Minimalism over excess. A soldier trying to dual wield pistols in a combat situation is being anything but practical.

[Bravix]

The theme of Planetside is a sort of militaristic sci-fi. It's not strictly tied to reality, but it remains close. Most of the equipment you see in it are things that a modern military would use if they had the technology and understanding required. Some of it is being researched and developed already (rail guns, powered exo-armor). The game favors squad tactics and practicality over heroism and hollywood spectacle. Minimalism over excess. A soldier trying to dual wield pistols in a combat situation is being anything but practical.

I like the way he worded it better than my wall of text :)

[Krowe]

No.

[Kouza]

No.
.

[Brusi]

Oh also this would be a nice skill-upgrade down the pistol tree.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A9f-wgBXJ2E#t=1m28s

By upgrade, are you referring to implants? :rofl:

[Zulthus]

The theme of Planetside is a sort of militaristic sci-fi. It's not strictly tied to reality, but it remains close. Most of the equipment you see in it are things that a modern military would use if they had the technology and understanding required. Some of it is being researched and developed already (rail guns, powered exo-armor). The game favors squad tactics and practicality over heroism and hollywood spectacle. Minimalism over excess. A soldier trying to dual wield pistols in a combat situation is being anything but practical.

I get what you're saying, but I think 3/4ths of the stuff in Planetside is too farfetched for the military to ever use it. But you all make sound akimbo sound so "fiction". If it's the case, I wouldn't see harm in putting it in this fictional game.

And to Bravix, my intent was not to show you anyone hitting a target at 200m away. All you're saying is "duh you cant hit a target at all after a shot" which is completely false.

I'll end with saying this is a game; not real life. If you don't believe you can akimbo guns IRL, don't. This could be a neat addition for some people. Personally, as I said earlier, I don't really care to use it. I was throwing an idea out there. As you can see in this thread, there are people who like it, people who don't, and Bravix, who decides to be the pessimistic troll of the thread.

Anyways, /end rant

[Sirisian]

By upgrade, are you referring to implants?
No I'm referring to weapon/armor upgrades. That video should link you to an ammo belt so I was insinuating dual reloading skill upgrades that negate the slow reload for a dual weapon.

Curious, how did you see an implant working in regards to that video?

[Bravix]

I get what you're saying, but I think 3/4ths of the stuff in Planetside is too farfetched for the military to ever use it. But you all make sound akimbo sound so "fiction". If it's the case, I wouldn't see harm in putting it in this fictional game.

And to Bravix, my intent was not to show you anyone hitting a target at 200m away. All you're saying is "duh you cant hit a target at all after a shot" which is completely false.

I'll end with saying this is a game; not real life. If you don't believe you can akimbo guns IRL, don't. This could be a neat addition for some people. Personally, as I said earlier, I don't really care to use it. I was throwing an idea out there. As you can see in this thread, there are people who like it, people who don't, and Bravix, who decides to be the pessimistic troll of the thread.

Anyways, /end rant

I think he loves me <3

[Zulthus]

I think he loves me <3

<3

[exLupo]

I wouldn't see harm in putting it in this fictional game.

There's plenty of harm that can be done. So far there's been no real mention of what currently unfulfilled game mechanic niche DW is for. Higher RoF than a pistol with less accuracy. Something else that's higher RoF than a pistol but has greater accuracy? MA. The Pistol -> MA transition doesn't need anything as an interim step. If there was a need then go with SMG. Still using pistol ammo but you get a higher RoF and duration of fire while not ending up with DW's laughable accuracy due to a vastly more stable firing platform.

"But it's soo coooooool!" Sure, it may be but that's never, ever been a good reason to add random stuff to games this far along. Every item has a substantial development cost to it. You have to balance the weapon in relation to other weapons and then re-balance every other closely related weapon in kind. Next you have to get your art department to make the movements work with all of your pre-existing art and then the tech team needs to find room in the memory footprint to add the new assets. All to add something that is both redundant and inferior in the name of "cool". It's a really expensive change you're proposing and one that will have no real role or purpose other than looking like an action hero.

Let it go. "Cool" is great during initial dev discussion but adding something that has no real purpose (meaning, the game is lacking an unforeseen but necessary mechanic) in any stage after alpha is a bad idea.

[Zulthus]

There's plenty of harm that can be done. So far there's been no real mention of what currently unfulfilled game mechanic niche DW is for. Higher RoF than a pistol with less accuracy. Something else that's higher RoF than a pistol but has greater accuracy? MA. The Pistol -> MA transition doesn't need anything as an interim step. If there was a need then go with SMG. Still using pistol ammo but you get a higher RoF and duration of fire while not ending up with DW's laughable accuracy due to a vastly more stable firing platform.

"But it's soo coooooool!" Sure, it may be but that's never, ever been a good reason to add random stuff to games this far along. Every item has a substantial development cost to it. You have to balance the weapon in relation to other weapons and then re-balance every other closely related weapon in kind. Next you have to get your art department to make the movements work with all of your pre-existing art and then the tech team needs to find room in the memory footprint to add the new assets. All to add something that is both redundant and inferior in the name of "cool". It's a really expensive change you're proposing and one that will have no real role or purpose other than looking like an action hero.

Let it go. "Cool" is great during initial dev discussion but adding something that has no real purpose (meaning, the game is lacking an unforeseen but necessary mechanic) in any stage after alpha is a bad idea.

I never said it would be "cool". I don't think anyone here has. I wouldn't have suggested it for that reason. DW could be for someone who deeply specializes in the weapon but doesn't have the certs for MA, preferring to be a vehicle driver. And it's a simple development. 2 of the same pistols. Slightly higher RoF/CoF put together. Reload takes twice as long as a single pistol. People get so much shit on PSU for suggesting things.

[PSxCarebear]

Akimbo 1887s.

No.

[Sirisian]

So far there's been no real mention of what currently unfulfilled game mechanic niche DW is for. Higher RoF than a pistol with less accuracy. Something else that's higher RoF than a pistol but has greater accuracy? MA. The Pistol -> MA transition doesn't need anything as an interim step. If there was a need then go with SMG. Still using pistol ammo but you get a higher RoF and duration of fire while not ending up with DW's laughable accuracy due to a vastly more stable firing platform.

You admitted there is role. You said no gun has a high rate of fire and bad accuracy. Then again that's now how I imagine the usage. I'm imagining someone choosing dual weapons for the extra ammo. They might burst fire left and right rounds slowly to keep their CoF down on both guns. (Separate reticule idea). The advantage being extended ammo. The alternative with one gun is to reload, but hey if you don't need deadly accuracy it's not a big deal. (Say you're not going for headshots).

You're looking at the accuracy from a realistic standpoint and not a gameplay balancing standpoint. That's going to give you tunnel vision when thinking of a possible design. Imagine the bloom for each weapon is double for each shot. Also without a scope it lacks any added accuracy one might get from using iron sights on a pistol.

You could with this idea be shooting at someone while moving forward using iron sights then when you get closer pull out both pistols since you no longer need the accuracy. This is especially true if pistols are lower damage than an MA.

[runs out of ideas so resorts to development cost and performance complaints]
uh huh... 3 year plan if it isn't in the start of the game. Just discuss the idea. It's weak to attack an idea because you perceive it as being added only because it's "cool". Many ideas and uses have been listed for how they could be used and by whom. (Pilots and non-assault classes).

[exLupo]

Ok. Say someone specs deeply into pistol and unlocks dual wielding. You have to spend all of the money mentioned above. Assuming the person selects "dual wield pistols" and is, until they change loadout, unable to use a pistol in a conventional manner. If you want them to be able to switch out then you have to get the art team to make a custom UI for this mechanic as well. God forbid you want them to be able to dual wield different weapons. Then you have to change the UI mechanics to accompany this new feature.

On the other hand, you could spec deep into pistol and unlock a single machine pistol. You could then skip the majority of the art and tech asset cost for something that is better in every way than dual wielding for all of the same reasons SMG is superior.

So how about it? Machine pistols are both mechanically (for the players) and financially (for the developers) superior. And, with the AMP, they already exist in PS lore. Win/Win/Win.


I never said it would be "cool". I don't think anyone here has.
I loved them in L4D actually where left and right mouse button went for their respective gun. So cool. The game needs more cool stuff. - Sirisian
I think dual pistols as an unlockable skill would be pretty cool, but only pistols. - Raymac
I actually like the idea for the "cool" factor. - Crator

[Talek Krell]

Not to mention, the shotgun already fills the role of a close combat weapon with low accuracy. While a real pilot wouldn't generally have one, in Planetside it's perfectly reasonable that a pilot or driver would carry a medium assault weapon.

[Peacemaker]

Anyone worth their salt at the range will tell you that a single pistol will always beat out an idiot running around with two. The only way to shoot two pistols at the same time is to Index the target, that is match a sight picture without the sights. The only way to do this is to practice endlessly to shoot a certain target from a certain range.

Lets have a pistol duel though. 25 Feet. I'll double tap you in the head before you get four inaccurate shots off. Like its been said, the game does not need it. Unlock an AMP style gun instead, or upgrade the pistol its self. Unless your standing behind someone dual wielding wouldn't and shouldn't be effective. If your shooting 20 bullets and 6 hit and I shot 10 bullets and 6 hit at twice the range I think Ima win.

[Zulthus]

Anyone worth their salt at the range will tell you that a single pistol will always beat out an idiot running around with two. The only way to shoot two pistols at the same time is to Index the target, that is match a sight picture without the sights. The only way to do this is to practice endlessly to shoot a certain target from a certain range.

Lets have a pistol duel though. 25 Feet. I'll double tap you in the head before you get four inaccurate shots off. Like its been said, the game does not need it. Unlock an AMP style gun instead, or upgrade the pistol its self. Unless your standing behind someone dual wielding wouldn't and shouldn't be effective. If your shooting 20 bullets and 6 hit and I shot 10 bullets and 6 hit at twice the range I think Ima win.

Yes...I get the whole "at range" thing... the idea was for indoor combat, where DW would be more effective.

[exLupo]

Yes...I get the whole "at range" thing... the idea was for indoor combat, where DW would be more effective.

Yet still inferior to the AMP which already exists.

[Zulthus]

Yet still inferior to the AMP which already exists.

Do you know if the AMP will be in PS2?

[Bravix]

Yet still inferior to the AMP which already exists.

Yep. All the AMP is, is a machine pistol. It's gonna shoot the same bullets as the pistols, but at a higher RoF and better accuracy since it's a single weapon. Only takes one holster slot too.

[Zulthus]

Yep. All the AMP is, is a machine pistol. It's gonna shoot the same bullets as the pistols, but at a higher RoF and better accuracy since it's a single weapon. Only takes one holster slot too.

Refer to my previous post

[exLupo]

Do you know if the AMP will be in PS2?

I don't but why would they go through the trouble of adding DW when they already have the lore and concept of what you want with the AMP?

It's easier, it's cheaper, it's more realistic (see: contextual realism) and it already exists in the lore.

Assuming both the AMP and the DW mechanic do not currently exist, which is a more sound decision from a development standpoint? No true Scotsman would say DW.

[Zulthus]

I don't but why would they go through the trouble of adding DW when they already have the lore and concept of what you want with the AMP?

It's easier, it's cheaper, it's more realistic (see: contextual realism) and it already exists in the lore.

Assuming both the AMP and the DW mechanic do not currently exist, which is a more sound decision from a development standpoint? No true Scotsman would say DW.

Because it's a new game, adding more features?

[exLupo]

Because it's a new game, adding more features?

So, you're going to pay for the difference between adding DW than adding the AMP? I don't imagine they have either an unlimited budget or time. I'm sure they'll be happy to if you foot the bill. Otherwise, AMP all the way.

Role: High rof CQC pistol.
Options: AMP or DW
Advantages of the AMP over DW : Cheaper and easier to implement. Lore exists.
Advantages of DW over the AMP : Will bring in gamers who want DW.

Financial statements are way easier to argue with management than a "vague maybe". Once assets exist it becomes exponentially more expensive to invent and implement new, non-backend mechanics.

[Raymac]

I don't think it has to be an "either / or" thing.

[Zulthus]

I made this thread to ask opinions on DWing, not whether you want it or the AMP. I can see that almost no one wants it, which is to be expected. Quit acting like SOE has a budget of five dollars for the game. It doesn't cost an arm to add it in if they felt like it. I think the thread has run its course.

[Captain1nsaneo]

I can think of a VVF reason to not have DW.
Magscatters.

The argument that the basic pistols won't be in the game is stupid, we've already seen the repeater in the hands of a TR so thinking that the other two* aren't in there is like saying the prowler won't be in the game when we've seen the vanguard and the magrider.

Take a breath and just sit back for a second Zulthus. Your tone just bleeds frustration. It's ok to be wrong man. What's more important is to not to respond like Firefly just insulted your younger sister. You may like DW but some of us hate it because it doubles the potential damage of what has to already be a viable weapon and someone WILL find a way to make it effective despite what is done with CoF or reload times. Humans are like that.

Personally I'd like to hear your argument for it beyond "it's cool". Why is it cool? Why is DW better indoors than other weapons? They might be better in stairwells. The only thing I can think of that would benefit from DW would be cloakers who depend on point blank engagement. Are there others?

*The Beamer isn't a pistol, it's a flashlight.

[Zulthus]

I can think of a VVF reason to not have DW.
Magscatters.

The argument that the basic pistols won't be in the game is stupid, we've already seen the repeater in the hands of a TR so thinking that the other two* aren't in there is like saying the prowler won't be in the game when we've seen the vanguard and the magrider.

Take a breath and just sit back for a second Zulthus. Your tone just bleeds frustration. It's ok to be wrong man. What's more important is to not to respond like Firefly just insulted your younger sister. You may like DW but some of us hate it because it doubles the potential damage of what has to already be a viable weapon and someone WILL find a way to make it effective despite what is done with CoF or reload times. Humans are like that.

Personally I'd like to hear your argument for it beyond "it's cool". Why is it cool? Why is DW better indoors than other weapons? They might be better in stairwells. The only thing I can think of that would benefit from DW would be cloakers who depend on point blank engagement. Are there others?

*The Beamer isn't a pistol, it's a flashlight.

Frustrated? Not at all. Tired of asshats in the forums? Certainly. Again, where have I ever said I thought it's cool? Where have I said I liked the idea of DW? I created the thead to hear other's opinions on it. As I said earlier in the thread, I don't care for it myself. You need to read the thread. My OP said pistols; people come in and post "No. Do not want akimbo chainguns."

Also, can you link the picture with the repeater? I'd love to see some new info.

[Captain1nsaneo]

There's been quite a bit of talk about pistols. As for 'cool' up a bit is exLupo's post, 3 people have said it would be cool. Still want to know why or what DW would bring to the game.

The repeater is in the trailer, it's the pistol the TR is firing into the screen. If it's not a repeater then the tanks weren't magriders.

As for asshats, you're on the internet.

[Zulthus]

There's been quite a bit of talk about pistols. As for 'cool' up a bit is exLupo's post, 3 people have said it would be cool. Still want to know why or what DW would bring to the game.

The repeater is in the trailer, it's the pistol the TR is firing into the screen. If it's not a repeater then the tanks weren't magriders.

As for asshats, you're on the internet.

Yeah, I wasn't one of them.

Ah yes, I see it now... looks like they've really "bulked up" all of the weapons.

I've seen more asshats here than anywhere else. More than half of the posts here have someone trying to formulate an argument against the previous poster. And I've been on hundreds of sites.

[RedKnights]

Am I the only one who thinks that Dual-Wielding Pistols would be awesome?

For instance it could serve as a 'high-damage-low-accuracy' option for new game elements such as jet-pack troopers, which just seem like they should characteristically be blazing across the battlefield or over a wall in slow-motion blowing people away a-la matrix or kill bill with a cocky 'fly-boy' sneer.

There's no game play reason it should 'have' to be in the game, heck a shotgun would serve the purpose just as dutifully. But then again, it just seems like it would be awesomely fun and cool because it's stylistically fitting for some classes like command or jetpacks to be 'badass' enough to do that at a high enough cert tree thing.

As for mechanics, just program it as a new gun/weapon, and have the "model" be holding a pistol in each hand. Nothing too complicated or expensive... I don't see what you guys are QQ'ing about. These threads are to talk about the ideas, not to discuss if SOE can manage to do something, so just assume they can do almost anything.

Now off my lawn you TR & NC scum.

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTr6FqggOD6nA7feMKxzGnMgZmC0ixz2 Kak9k9bx3eqwwb6-6Fw_Q

[Crator]

There's been quite a bit of talk about pistols. As for 'cool' up a bit is exLupo's post, 3 people have said it would be cool. Still want to know why or what DW would bring to the game.


Yeah, I wasn't one of them.

Do you think people that post in your thread are just replying to what you are posting? Pretty sure they are just following the discussion. Don't get your panties in a wad.

[Sirisian]

Am I the only one who thinks that Dual-Wielding Pistols would be awesome?
I've gotten the impression that some people are more for single responsibility guns/vehicles in Planetside. The idea of having guns/vehicles that could overlap roles in anyway is apparently game breaking. So giving people more choices seems like it would be out of the question.

I guess I like the idea of having more weapon choices. I could see how having only 30 weapons would be easier to balance though. I was just hoping for a bit more variety in Planetside 2.

Also this needs a poll still.

[Zulthus]

Do you think people that post in your thread are just replying to what you are posting? Pretty sure they are just following the discussion. Don't get your panties in a wad.

Again, read the thread before you post... he asked me to give a reason why I thought It's soooo coool!. I simply said I didn't say that.

[Bravix]

Frustrated? Not at all. Tired of asshats in the forums? Certainly.

DISCLAIMER: Creation of counter arguments to Dual Wielding may lead to side effects such as nausea after reading the next post, diarrhea thanks to that chili dog, and cause you to be labled as an 'asshat'.

I'm pretty sure the general thought here (80%) is that dual wielding is either unnecessary, ineffective, or just plain stupid. If all you were looking for was to see people's opinions, you got them.

[Raymac]

Maybe I'm just an asshat so I don't see it, but for the most part, the discussions here seem pretty civil to me, especially for the interwebs. Obviously there isn't 100% agreement on most subjects, but those make for very short discussions anyways.

[Tatwi]

I think that dual pistols would look neat, if they had decent animations, but I think that each pistol should get a 50% damage reduction applied when dual wielding. It should not be a numerical advantage.

[Sirisian]

Well I'm bored at work this Friday so in the order of posts:

For Akimbo (10 people)
Zulthus(?)
Sirisian
Erendil (pistols only)
Peacemaker
Graywolves(?)
Raymac (pistols only)
Sentrosi
RedKnights
Tatwi
InternetZombie

Against Akimbo (14 people)
Talek Krell
Bravix
Huma
Furret
Brusi
ExLupo
FIREk
2coolforu
Nephilimuk
Krowe
PSxCarebear
Captain1nsaneo
Tigersmith
CutterJohn

Indifferent (Hasn't specifically taken a side, 5 people)
Aractain
DeeTwoEh
Valdae
Kaffis
Crator

So 10 for, 14 against, 5 undecided. Poll++

[Tigersmith]

This is not CoD or Halo . Please no :(

[CutterJohn]

For Akimbo (10 people)
CutterJohn

I'm for it in the sense that nothing should stop people from doing it. Its still a spectacularly bad idea that is a artifact of hollywood superheroes doing it, and this should be reflected in stat modifiers. If someone wants to be 'cool' and shoot two pistols at once, thereby ensuring he misses with every shot, I have no issue with that.

Doesn't change the fact that 10 times out of 10 a select fire pistol would be superior in every fashion. Same dps. Same ammo capacity(extended clips woo!). Ability to switch from single shot to full auto at the flip of a switch. Ability to reload in less than ten seconds.

Of course if you then say people would just use two fully automatic pistols, we have little to discuss since you've obviously never shot a pistol in your life, yet alone one at several hundred rounds per minute.

But if you think an 'I think its stupid, but why not let idiots be idiots' counts as a 'for' vote, go right ahead and count it.

[InternetZombie]

I dont see why alot of people wont even consider it I mean we have a whole faction based on the spray and pray tactic, yeah the TR are all about spray and pray and dont try to tell me otherwise you CHAINGUN weilding maniacs.

Sarcasim aside I dont see why it would hurt to try it out, if it works then great if not then we can get rid of it. I can see how some people would use this and others would not, when it comes down to it it's about styles of gameplay. Will I use duel wield? I might on a shock-trooper kind of guy, jetpack right up and hit em hard with a duel stinger/eraser/spear alt fire.

Make it far down in a cert tree, it should be something to specialize in and I think it would be great for shock-troopers but pretty useless for everyone else.

Just because you see no need for it doesn't mean someone couldn't use it to great effect with the way they play.

[CutterJohn]

Sarcasim aside I dont see why it would hurt to try it out, if it works then great if not then we can get rid of it. I can see how some people would use this and others would not, when it comes down to it it's about styles of gameplay. Will I use duel wield? I might on a shock-trooper kind of guy, jetpack right up and hit em hard with a duel stinger/eraser/spear alt fire.

An AMP style pistol, or merely a select fire option for all pistols further down the tree, is both more realistic and easier to implement, while filling the exact same gameplay niche.

[InternetZombie]

An AMP style pistol, or merely a select fire option for all pistols further down the tree, is both more realistic and easier to implement, while filling the exact same gameplay niche.

Ok serriously I hate how anyone is going to bring the "it's not realistic" BS arguement to this, shall we go count the number of unrealistic things in Planetside?

If you want realistic go play ARMA.

If your duel wielding you should have horrible accuracy and a horrible reload time, but twice the firepower. Having a single AMP style pistol does not fill the same gameplay niche. Sure you fire fast but thats not the point, the point is to get the most damage done in the fastest time possible, if I can unload 30 rounds in a second great, but 60 is still twice the damage.

The reason I said spear/eraser/stinger is because the alt fire on those weapons is a trade off, you unload all rounds very quickly and can do alot of damage but you lose all your stamina and outside of point blank range there useless.

Duel wielding should be something that only makes sence at point blank range, otherwise your just wasting your time and ammo. If someone really wants to run at me from 50 meters away with duel pistols then I say let em, easy kill.

[CutterJohn]

Ok serriously I hate how anyone is going to bring the "it's not realistic" BS arguement to this, shall we go count the number of unrealistic things in Planetside?

I don't like it. Is that a BS argument?

The reason I don't like it is because its unrealistic and a bad idea, and I'm tired of seeing it in games and in hollywood. The TR max gets a pass because its powered armor and undoubtedly has a lot of servos and software to control it.

By the way, I find it interesting you lambast people using realism as an argument against it, then proceed to support the exact downsides such a practice would realistically have. Why is it ok for you to argue realism but not me?

Lastly, since you brought it up, obviously sci fi can make anything possible. I demand robot unicorns as player mounts. Sci fi!

If your duel wielding you should have horrible accuracy and a horrible reload time, but twice the firepower. Having a single AMP style pistol does not fill the same gameplay niche. Sure you fire fast but thats not the point, the point is to get the most damage done in the fastest time possible, if I can unload 30 rounds in a second great, but 60 is still twice the damage.

The gameplay niche you seem to be wanting is 'Maximum possible dps from a pistol weapon'. You're saying a pistol in the style of the AMP is incapable of this? Devs magically can't change the damage and rof values in the weapon configuration file?

Whatever two weapons can do, the devs can invent a single weapon that does the exact same thing. Making the argument one of style, not mechanics. Meaning it is completely a matter of personal taste.

[exLupo]

Ok serriously I hate how anyone is going to bring the "it's not realistic" BS arguement to this, shall we go count the number of unrealistic things in Planetside?

Contextual realism: Design keeping true to a recognizable reality constant. This breaks down into three general categories.

Surrealism: Rez - Has no tie to normal human reality.
Non-simulation realism: PlanetSide - Has coherent ties to normal human reality with speculative elements.
Simulation realism: ARMA - Attempts to, as close as reasonable, simulate normal human reality.

Realism does not automatically equal a simulation. It's perfectly reasonable to ask the developers to adhere to what is viewed as reasonable when compared to existing PlanetSide lore. What is acceptable is different to different people (or there would be no point in this thread at all) but everyone is requesting some level of realism as long as they want things like guns which are, themselves, a reflection of meatspace if even only in concept.

Duel wielding should be something that only makes sence at point blank range, otherwise your just wasting your time and ammo. If someone really wants to run at me from 50 meters away with duel pistols then I say let em, easy kill.

This is an example of non-simulation realism. You're seeing how firing two pistols would operate in real life and applying it to your suggested Dual Wield design.

[Crator]

It actually would be more unrealistic if they didn't allow you to dual-wield.

[CutterJohn]

Sure, but it'd also be unrealistic if it was more useful than anything in any way. Which then makes it wasted dev time.

[Crator]

I do not disagree with that statement CutterJohn. In fact I support it in an earlier post I made in this thread.

[Sirisian]

From IRC:
<CutterJohn>tbh, healing with a med app offhand while you hold a pistol is pretty acceptible
He was talking about either firing with one hand or healing with one hand and not doing both at once.

To bring this thread from the dead for fun how do you feel about dual wielding med applicators? That is putting both of them in pistol holsters to heal two people at a time like a hero?

Personally being a medic and going through the holster cycle of putting away a weapon to heal someone is risky. Does it need to be that way or can a medic perform their duties while still having a pistol out.

That is if holster 1 is a pistol and holster 2 is a med app they could choose which hand to holster an item by holding left or right then pressing the holster key and the player will grab that. So if you have a person on your left that you want to heal you could hold the right mouse then hit the med applicator holster to put it in the right hand of the player. They'd reach either down or over. Then pressing another holster button would put that item in the off-hand. Pressing a holster button for a weapon equipped holsters it. Simple and yet horribly complicated. Unless you like that level of skill.

This opens up the ability to add an ancient ranged healing device also as an off-hand device on the user's hand while in battle.

[Mezorin]

This is a tough call, as to me PlanetSide sort of straddles that "realism" line between it being all super serious FPS, and being more fast paced Hollywood gameplay. But every game I have seen them implemented (except maybe N64 Golden Eye or Max Payne), dual weilded guns are usually useless.

As bad assed as dual wield hand guns or AMPs are concerned, they are usually very spammy weapons that are more about sheer lead volume than any real aimming skill. They also are not THAT great even in the COD series because the uncontrollable cone of fire on the stupid guns means you would have been better off with a rapid fire/extended mag SMG anyways.

But maybe letting dual weild be certible a 'light assault' ability would add some spice to the jet pack class. They could choose between insane close quarter DPS via dualie AMPs or scattermags, or they could use a larger SMG that has better accuracy/DPS at medium range. Provided dual wielding has benefits/cost that are appropriate for good game/class design, I see no problem with it.

[MorphyNOR]

Dual wield was useful for a couple hundred years, when pistols took forever to reload and had very limited shots.


Dual-wielding is - or has ever been considered usefull. How does using two hands compensate for a slow reload exactly? If you have a singleshot gun and use one hand you would be lucky to hit anything, if you carry two you are more likely to pull out one - shot - then pull out the other and shot it.

Try shooting with your weak hand some time ;)

Having said that tho, I'd love to see the option to customize my character to be left-handed. Not that I am myself left-handed. But I know a lot of people who are, and they would love this.

[Lokster]

I vote no to the dual-wielding idea. It's just not a needed feature imo.

[atone]

add it. I don't see why not. So what its not "planetsidy" enough for most vets. they are adding bunches of stuff that wasn't in planetside. the realism argument is neither here nor there (its scifi) Not effective/too effective, meh, that's all balance issues. what i do think is it will add is some flash that a lot fps gamers would and do enjoy thus expanding the base of players. so why not? hate it? don't use it and ridicule those that do.

[Malorn]

Just because John Woo made it look cool doesn't mean its practical. Its dumb, nobody does this IRL for a reason, it just looks good when Chow Yun Fat does it.

[Sirisian]

Since someone bumped this. Have you seen the Skyrim video where each hand is independent? That's ideally how it should be set up. Allows much more flexibility in how people equip and use items.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imH4Ncoe9Gs#t=1m27s

Actually watching that part again reminded me of my fantasy implants (http://www.planetside-universe.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37211), but it also goes into the idea of dual wielding medic/engineer items in your hands. Or holding a pistol while you have a deployable in your hand. Also opens up the ability to say hold a grenade in your off hand while holding a weapon. Lots of possibilities.

Ideally there would be a huge list of restrictions on what can be used with what and the modifiers for using combinations of items.

[atone]

dual w/ deploys?...
depends on how they are doing equip switches. if its fast enough there's not much difference. In most cases deploying speed isn't essential.

[Tycho]

The only thing i would be in favor of duel wielding is knives. I agree with MorphyNOR in that making your character left handed would be a cool feature.

Ive played with duel wield pistols in different games and had fun with them. However, I dont believe it will make a positive addition to the Planetside gameplay. I would like to see some new pistols in the game though.

[nomotog]

I searched this thread and didn't see anyone mention the idea of wielding a knife and a pistol. You could have both your weapons out at a time, but the trade off is no iron sight and maybe a clip less of pistol ammo.

[atone]

Just because John Woo made it look cool doesn't mean its practical. Its dumb, nobody does this IRL for a reason, it just looks good when Chow Yun Fat does it.
http://watchplayread.com/files/2009/08/dual-wield.PNG

just thought of this when i read your post:lol:

[XPquant]

I really like the idea of an off-hand quick access item or weapon. You could implement it as its own tree and have corresponding unlocks in other trees for uber ambidexterity. I think that would go well with the idea of faster pacing over all, before its dual wielding its a secondary weapon quick slot instantly accessed but not in conjunction with the mean weapon, before that it's an item quick slot. There are a lot of possibilities in this line of thinking.

The cynical jerks who seem to infest these forums have offered no real reason why it's not a selling point to dual wield, only that it's dumb/unrealistic/unbalanced. It is clear you do not want change you personally don't like, whether it affects game-play positively or not. Dual wielding would only increase the possibilities for fun.

P.S. All of these posts are fantastical conjecture, why troll?

[Malorn]

The cynical jerks who seem to infest these forums have offered no real reason why it's not a selling point to dual wield, only that it's dumb/unrealistic/unbalanced. It is clear you do not want change you personally don't like, whether it affects game-play positively or not. Dual wielding would only increase the possibilities for fun.

P.S. All of these posts are fantastical conjecture, why troll?

Name-calling - great way to prove your point!


Immersiveness and "feel" of the game are important. Those who don't like it for "realism" or whatever do so becuase it goes against their immersive feel of planetside 2.

Personally, there is a long line of things I would rather see the devs spend art, animation, coding, and balancing time on than this sort of needless feature creep that has nothing to do with core gameplay.

[atone]

Name-calling - great way to prove your point!


Immersiveness and "feel" of the game are important. Those who don't like it for "realism" or whatever do so becuase it goes against their immersive feel of planetside 2.

Personally, there is a long line of things I would rather see the devs spend art, animation, coding, and balancing time on than this sort of needless feature creep that has nothing to do with core gameplay.

i like that, immersive feel of a game they never played. jokes aside. your right, there is a long list of better things to work on, but given the choice is it that bad?

[Sirisian]

Name-calling - great way to prove your point!
That blogger was clearly molested by UO when he was younger and rocks in a corner crying himself to sleep when he's not on his personal quest to stop the spread of MMOs.
:lol: I read your post in the other thread and then saw this. I think it's safe to say that if we're gonna argue we should point out faults with people's arguments and explain our own thoughts and opinions without resorting to name calling.

Immersiveness and "feel" of the game are important. Those who don't like it for "realism" or whatever do so becuase it goes against their immersive feel of planetside 2.
Agreed. That is a very legitimate reason not to like dual wielding. However, it's important for people that feel that way to say what they don't want dual wielded. Some people don't like dual pistols, but are fine with grenade in one hand an pistol in the other and some are against allowing such gameplay.
Personally, there is a long line of things I would rather see the devs spend art, animation, coding, and balancing time on than this sort of needless feature creep that has nothing to do with core gameplay.
It could be part of the core gameplay. That's why it's important to get these ideas out while the developers are still reading about them.

[Malorn]

I was stating fact about the blogger.

And no this isn't part of core gameplay. It's somewhere between "nice to have" and "unnecessary"

[Wahooo]

Dual wielding... yeah! Twice the damage with no down side sounds Teh Awsome!

I would be ok with Dual wielding weapons if there was an over the top significant nerf to aiming AND reload time was 3X or greater than with a single weapon.

Dual wielding weapons (especially shotguns), quick knives (especially OHK from 10' away) and OHK headshots from automatic spray weapons are some of the worst mechanics to enter FPS games ever and I would be very dissapointed if PS2 was released with these. So far it sounds like their Headshots are being handled ok, and that there is a talk of dissagreements with the quick knives hopefully the right side of that argument wins out.

[Malorn]

Some folks wont' be happy unless PS2 is a MMO Halo game.

[Traak]

If you want dual-wielding, get a TR max! w00t!

[Sirisian]

Dual wielding... yeah! Twice the damage with no down side sounds Teh Awsome!

I would be ok with Dual wielding weapons if there was an over the top significant nerf to aiming AND reload time was 3X or greater than with a single weapon.
This is the kind of constructive posts that I like to see. Pointing out problems and finding solutions to make them work. It's interesting when people view a problem like this and ignore then balancing issues.

Dual wielding weapons (especially shotguns), quick knives (especially OHK from 10' away) and OHK headshots from automatic spray weapons are some of the worst mechanics to enter FPS games ever and I would be very dissapointed if PS2 was released with these. So far it sounds like their Headshots are being handled ok, and that there is a talk of dissagreements with the quick knives hopefully the right side of that argument wins out.
Balance would be key. Dual shotguns for instance would either need to be a no go because they're pump shotguns for instance or they would need to be balanced artificially via modifiers. Not a fan of dual knives one-hitting either. I think you'll find a large group of people here that agree with your comments about balancing those sort of things for infiltrator/assault classes.
Some folks wont' be happy unless PS2 is a MMO Halo game.
I don't think this has anything to do with Halo. It's more about giving players options and increasing the choices a player has when they enter a situation. Also can you be a bit more constructive with your comments. You're not really explaining what you don't like. Is it the weapon dual wielding? Which ones? All of them?

It would be really nice to see off-hand ranged medic abilities along with a weapon during combat among other things that this opens up. I had never even thought of dual wielding knives until someone brought it up. Talk about a cloaking rogue class.
If you want dual-wielding, get a TR max! w00t!
Actually all the Max units can have weapons on both hands and they are interchangeable. This was explained a while back.

[XPquant]

I didn't mean to hurt your feelings Malorn ;p . Instead of writing an essay on how mean and baseless most of these posts are I just kept it short, sweet and broad. You have to admit the tone in these forums have more hate mongering fan bois then usual and it's cumbersome to have even a simple discussion on human's using two hands instead of one in a game. I'm used to more considerate posters I guess, all this talking down to people is taking some getting used to.

If you act like a jerk I have to call you on it, it's my nature. The fact you boiled my post down to 'name calling' shows you have no substance to bring against me. I presented multiple aspects of the same point and you did not address them. Still haven't seen any real point's on why the mechanics of using two hands in-game is bad at all period. It's interesting your talking about the core game-play of a game that only exists in our imagination at this point. We won't really know anything about this game till beta, then you can talk about Planetside 2 core game-play. Planetside was always about possibilities, even the ones you don't like.

Even without 'akimbo' the concept of using your off hand is a great mechanic, Sirisian outlined it perfectly. Being able to use some handheld non weapon equipment while still retaining a pistol would just give support players a more rewarding tree progression and some sense of security.

Now without saying the words: realistic (cause humans don't use two hands independently), unbalanced (because the devs are incompetent?), Halo (Halo sure made a lot more money then Planetside), dev cost (adding more dynamic gameplay could never pay off in sales), 'core' gameplay (see above) or john woo (I cannot believe you 'blame' Hollywood for the concept of using two single handed weapons at once), tell me why this is a flawed game concept for Planetside 2.

[Wahooo]

Yeah why blame Jon Woo? Yosemite Sam was dual wielding long before Woo's movies came around.

[2coolforu]

It's effectively impossible to make a dual-wielded variant of a weapon balanced, they are either vastly better than a single weapon or so bad noone will ever want it ever.

With a pistol the range at which you use them is so short that accuracy was irrelevant from the start, therefore a 100% increase in DPS is vastly better than the 50% decrease in accuracy or 100% decrease in accuracy.

"Now without saying the words: realistic (cause humans don't use two hands independently), unbalanced (because the devs are incompetent?), Halo (Halo sure made a lot more money then Planetside), dev cost (adding more dynamic gameplay could never pay off in sales), 'core' gameplay (see above) or john woo (I cannot believe you 'blame' Hollywood for the concept of using two single handed weapons at once), tell me why this is a flawed game concept for Planetside 2. "

So BALANCE isn't a major component of whether something should be in a game or not? Dev time that could be used implementing two-man tanks or CE or a deployable galaxy fortress should instead be used on just doubling an existing weapon?

As for "Halo sure made a lot more money than Planetside" you should know a few things

1) Just because the majority flock to something does not mean it's a good idea or right. The average person is a fuck-tard, this is common knowledge, groups of people are even dumber

2) Console gamers flock from game to game, this is because a lot of the current console generation games are fads. Just like no-one cares about Halo 2, Battlefield:Bad Company, CoD 1, 2, 3, 5 Gears of War, Ressistance 1 or 2 in the future noone will care about MW3 or Gears of War 3. I don't see people saying "Oh Boy, CoD 3/5 sure was that one unique memory to me! Hell that game was awesome", I don't see people saying "No FIFA 10 was the classic, FIFA 09 Sucked dick!" "Battlefield Bad Company was waaay better than BF2!". Just like boy bands were famous, the Spice Girls and S-Club 7 had huge success, these game-mill series will be forgotten as just spamming the same thing over and over again.

I mean CoD 4 is generally regarded as a good game but does that mean we should take martyrdom, one of the most hated perks out of it? Or should we take the Frag x3 perk? A popular game can have shitty ideas. Hell Black Ops is the most sold game of all time yet the vast majority of PC Gamers hate it.

Look at the games that are still played, BF2 has thousands of servers still. AoE 2 is still played, PC Gamer still reminisces about the old Planetside and Deus Ex is regarded as one of the best games of all time yet these sold far, far less than CoD. Quantity =/= Quality. How many people play CoD 5, 4, 3 on the Xbox 360

Most played games 2010

Call of Duty: Black Ops
Halo: Reach
Red Dead Redemption
Fable III
Battlefield: Bad Co. 2
Medal of Honor
Mass Effect 2
FIFA Soccer 11
Fallout: New Vegas
BioShock 2

Yeah, MW2 and all the CoD's are dead, CoD 4 probably has at peak a few thousand players. Effectively 90% of the Xbox playerbase is in those 10 games, CoD games are a fad just as the Backstreet Boys, Busted, Justin Bieber, Facebook or Michael Bay movies are fads that will be long forgotten in very little time compared to other products in the same genres.

People buy CoD because it's the "next big thing", it's brand loyalty, they release them every year and once the new one comes out the old one is dead and forgotten. At least Planetside 1 had 3 or so big years and is still remembered as being unique until this time.

But anyway, what does duel wielding really add, I mean, why should we spend all this time animating and making two pistols. I get the equipment idea, that sounds pretty cool, but I don't see what two pistols would add at all. Why not add a unique weapon that's closer ranged and more damaging and make it common pool?

[XPquant]

Your seriously suggesting it is not within the devs ability to refine this concept down to balance? It is beyond the capability of human engineering to have a game simulation of akimbo weapons that isn't broken?

[nomotog]

Dual-Wielding with tools is a very good idea. I allows you to pack some heat well still having your med-kit or other side tool tool equipped. I was going to suggest the idea myself.

Dose dual-wielding two weapons add anything?

Well ya kind of. It's a good way to breath power into a intentionally weak weapon. Maybe the pistol is a weak because it's meant to be used sparingly. At the same time, you want some classes to use them as effective weapons. Dubbing up is just a quick way to do that.

The next one is the wielding two weapons that fill different rolls. A an armor pistol in one hand and a anti infantry pistol in the other. It gives the player flexibility to engage a larger verity of targets.

[2coolforu]

Your seriously suggesting it is not within the devs ability to refine this concept down to balance? It is beyond the capability of human engineering to have a game simulation of akimbo weapons that isn't broken?

I've never seen a game balance akimbo weaponry while retaining the ability to use a single or pair of the weapons, one route is always more effective for the weapon at hand which totally defeats the extra complexity added by having the ability to duel wield. There is also such a thing as a games 'Tone', duel wielding IMHO is not in Planetside's tone. It is more fast-paced, bullet spraying and unrealistic when Planetside is more of a realistic and tactical game. It may have spacemen and laser guns but you can't sprint around and hit people with pinpoint accuracy, bullets have a degree of simulation and the reason people take 20 hits to die and everyone is in exo-suits is because it's thousands of years in the future. It's not like CoD or TF2 where the universe makes no attempt to explain why the current state is, it's just accepted that the laws are different whereas Planetside provides a degree of explanation.

You don't respawn because its a game, you respawn because it's an Alien planet with some method of matter replication and a core which is effectively a giant hard-disk storing data. You take 20 bullets because you are wearing a suit made of futuristic composites (which is pretty realistic, modern exo-suits are being made already), you can't run and gun because this reduces your accuracy, the game has some degree of realism and holding two pistols does not fit into the whole 'Crouch, aim accurately and stay in cover' aesthetic. Duel wielding is in fact total unrealism, it never happens in real life, the only people you would see even attempting it are people dossing at the firing range or Libyan rebels (in between shooting at the sky). It has simply no appeal, the value of the increased firepower is tiny in comparison to the total accuracy lost.

[Sirisian]

Your seriously suggesting it is not within the devs ability to refine this concept down to balance? It is beyond the capability of human engineering to have a game simulation of akimbo weapons that isn't broken?
Welcome to my world. You just kind of have to overlook some posts for what they are. Incoherent rambling. However, he has two main points it seems that are on-topic:
With a pistol the range at which you use them is so short that accuracy was irrelevant from the start, therefore a 100% increase in DPS is vastly better than the 50% decrease in accuracy or 100% decrease in accuracy.
Interesting assumption. Pistol is a short range weapon where accuracy is important and that having two immediately means twice as much damage with the same rate of fire (same DPS each). What if that isn't the case. This was mentioned before. Imagine holding two pistols each with separate reticules. When you press the left mouse button the left one fires and reticule is increased. The right reticule increases only slightly. Now if you fire the right one it fires and does the same thing. The reticule bloom (accuracy change you described is larger). Now imagine the fire rate is only 60% of the original guns. This is essentially artificial modifiers used in balancing. Suddenly when you press 1 and 2 on your keyboard and unholster 2 pistols you have essentially separate reticules that affect one another a little bit. There is a slight advantage with a slighly faster ROF and longer clip but you suffer accuracy problems. You took this choice in light of many other choices you could have used. For instance putting a grenade in a holster might be seen as far more advantageous. Or as someone else mentioned holding a knife on one hand with a pistol. (Which is pretty hardcore).

You should notice that the amount of variables to play with for balancing are broad. You can even modify the base accuracy or reload times among other things. If a player is dual wielding they might holster a pistol to make a 30 meter shot and pull out dual pistols for 20 meter encounters. (Imagine a medic's rifle slot is taken with a rifle rifle sized medic tool as explained the interviews). This increase in choices makes battles more unpredictable and also increases the level of skill in combat.

So BALANCE isn't a major component of whether something should be in a game or not?
Indeed it should be an important part; however, it's important to keep and open mind when it comes to balancing. As I've shown there are many ways to balance weapons by themselves and when used together. The combinations can also be balanced by looking specifically at certain combinations of items using a matrix comparing each item to every other item and applying modifiers based on their combined use.

There is also such a thing as a games 'Tone', duel wielding IMHO is not in Planetside's tone. It is more fast-paced, bullet spraying and unrealistic when Planetside is more of a realistic and tactical game.
So akimbo makes the system a bullet spray system. It doesn't need to be that way. A big part of PS1 was controlling the bloom of rifles and other weapons. An akimbo system doesn't get rid of this. Also as explained modifiers can help to negate the ability to "spray" altogether.

Personally I think designing the game so that most items can be used in a dual system would greatly increase the choices people have. On the other hand some things seem interesting. Imagine having two grenade holsters and you were to equip two grenades at a time one on both hands. Those kinds of combinations might be difficult to balance. (As would dual snipers among other things that would be a no go).

[Malorn]

I'll give you two good reasons why it shouldn't be there.

1) Immersiveness

Pistols aren't one-handed weapons.

Have you ever shot a pistol before? If not, go to a range and fire a .357 and see how well you can stabilize the aim and handle the recoil one-handed. A handgun does not mean it is intended for use with a single hand and you use two hands to stabilize the weapon so on repeated shots you have accuracy. Any form of single-handed pistol in a game should have, at the least, significant accuracy penalties, especially for the 2nd, 3rd, etc shot. The first shot would have less, but its a lot easier to get a snap shot with two hands on the pistol than one.

Having dual wielding is a negative mark to me for immersiveness because it isn't practical. It's completely ficticious. While there are cases when you can use them one-handed, unless you absolutely must use them one-handed it isn't practical.


2) Gameplay Tradeoffs

There are practical reasons to use a pistol vs other weapons, but switching weapons or having to switch weapons is a tradeoff. Using a repair tool or a healing-gun-thing is a decision. You chose to equip that item and use it with the consequence of not being able to defend yourself while using it. The option to dual wield such things negates the consequence or risk in using the device. It also opens up other possible balance issues, like self healing while running around with a scat-pistol.

Immersion and Tradeoffs - both take a hit with dual wielding.

[Zulthus]

Sigh, why am I making another post in this thread...


Not that I really care anymore, but DWing has nothing to do with "immersiveness " in a game like Planetside. Maybe it isn't realistic, sure. Since when is this kind of game supposed to have realism? It's supposed to be fun, and maybe some people will find DWing fun.

Gameplay tradeoffs - who gives a shit. If someone wants to use a DWed gun over something more effective, more power to them.

Having dual wielding is a negative mark to me for immersiveness because it isn't practical. It's completely ficticious. While there are cases when you can use them one-handed, unless you absolutely must use them one-handed it isn't practical.

This means that the gravity defying Magrider with it's energy rail cannon are a negative mark for you? It's completely ficticious. Hell, Planetside should be a negative mark for you. It's completely ficticious.

[Malorn]

There's a difference between creative imagination and absurdity. Being someone in the technology industry, I like to think things like Fusion power and hover-tanks will one day be a reality that offers real benefits and has practical applications. Dual wielding pistols is neither.

Dual wielding has no benefits. If you want more firepower, you make it automatic. If you want to fire more bullets before reloading, you get a bigger magazine. At no point does maintaining two pistols become a more effective option.

It's purely an unrealistic, impractical thing that looks-good in movies and to waste my time responding to forums about it.

[Brusi]

I've been staying out of this thread, cause it's stupid (and the title reminds me of porno)... but i just gotta have a go at trolling you too, Malorn.

Dual wielding has no benefits. What if you wanna shoot two different guys at exactly the same time? eh, smart guy?


besides...

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSgOSlUK0reg49HcijxfjptvgH92aHtz j3whd3A0j3LxgiH2PFXcg

even cheech marin looks cool dual-weilding...

[Draep]

I've been staying out of this thread, cause it's stupid (and the title reminds me of porno)... but i just gotta have a go at trolling you too, Malorn.

What if you wanna shoot two different guys at exactly the same time? eh, smart guy?


This guy actually has a point. Why did Seung-Hui Cho shoot up VTech with akimbo pistols? Because he wanted to hit multiple targets at once. They were small caliber, easy to handle in one hand and the inaccuracy downside due to ambidexterity didn't matter because he was firing at mostly stationary crowds at close range.

Most games with akimbo give you one recticle for two pistols, which is inbalanced because it doubles your rate of fire at the cost of accuracy which is irrelevant, a point brought up earlier. If you had a recticle for each gun however, you have all the upsides and all the downsides, it would just be impossible to implement.

[sylphaen]

The key is to just make you look cool and make you feel like you own. Stats-wise it could be made just the same as your standard rifle:

Same DPS as standard rifle
+
Same accuracy as standard rifle
+
Same rate of fire as standard rifle
=
TR prestige weapon

I don't see the problem ?
--> shop item for next year

Edit: Ok, the range/damage over distance would need to be adjusted. But it's ok ! It's mainly to look cool and it will bring money to sony !

Myself, I wouldnt mind playing a medic avatar with an Ivory plated handgun.

[Hamma]

Dual Wielding is silly imo, has no place in the game just on principal.

[2coolforu]

This guy actually has a point. Why did Seung-Hui Cho shoot up VTech with akimbo pistols? Because he wanted to hit multiple targets at once. They were small caliber, easy to handle in one hand and the inaccuracy downside due to ambidexterity didn't matter because he was firing at mostly stationary crowds at close range.

Most games with akimbo give you one recticle for two pistols, which is inbalanced because it doubles your rate of fire at the cost of accuracy which is irrelevant, a point brought up earlier. If you had a recticle for each gun however, you have all the upsides and all the downsides, it would just be impossible to implement.

He shot unarmed kids and had no formal weapons training...

Even then, his posing picture he sent to the news had him holding both guns, I don't know if he actually walked around like that. There's a big difference between some asshole walking around with two guns shooting unarmed, unsuspecting friends and colleagues in a confined area then a soldier engaging an armed, trained and suspecting enemy combatant whose also underwent proper training.

*Edit* He didn't use both weapons at once, he used his Glock 19 and fired 170 shots. It was also a pretty disgusting event to read about.

[Sirisian]

Most games with akimbo give you one recticle for two pistols, which is inbalanced because it doubles your rate of fire at the cost of accuracy which is irrelevant, a point brought up earlier. If you had a recticle for each gun however, you have all the upsides and all the downsides, it would just be impossible to implement.
The reticules just point at the same spot in the center of the screen. How did you imagine a dual reticule system working? Two mice? :lol:

There are practical reasons to use a pistol vs other weapons, but switching weapons or having to switch weapons is a tradeoff. Using a repair tool or a healing-gun-thing is a decision. You chose to equip that item and use it with the consequence of not being able to defend yourself while using it. The option to dual wield such things negates the consequence or risk in using the device. It also opens up other possible balance issues, like self healing while running around with a scat-pistol.
Exactly. The whole system of using holsters is the trade-off. You have a trade-off while holding a grenade in one hand and a pistol in the other compared to say an HA gun. You're just limiting the trade-offs to a select few when the whole system could allow a lot more variation.

Indeed, self-healing would need to be handled. Can a medic even do it? If so does it require both hands to use that mode? Those are the kinds of things that can be balanced and would then be a trade-off. When you hold a med app in one holster and a pistol in the other you're already performing a trade-off by not choosing another holster item.

[Malorn]

Shooting two targets at the same time, as Sirisian states would require two reticules, not to mention it is extremely hard to do simultanteous shots and what people actually do is alternate between using guns in one hand vs another.

And still, a single gun does the job better.

Just look at what this guy can do with a single gun.
Fastest gun in the world - YouTube

Don't need to dual wield - you just need skill.

He shoots faster than the framerate of the camera.

[Tikuto]

Duel wielding and shooting barrelled weapons is actually really fucking difficult. You only see it in fantasy.

Let's not have it in PlanetSide2.

[Hmr85]

Way to dig up a thread from 2011... I agree, no dual wielding.

[Tamas]

Yes, but accuracy is reduced by 90%. Enjoy hitting nothing.

[Sighpolice]

Different Shooting Positions [MythBusters] - YouTube

Need I say more?

[XPquant]

Aiming and firing two weapons requires less skill then one. Wow i'm sorry to be the one to tell you this but you have down syndrome.

[Coreldan]

I would almost slit myself if they would implement dual wielding in PS2.

[Aurmanite]

I would almost slit myself if they would implement dual wielding in PS2.

Remember: you go down the street, not across the tracks.

[VioletZero]

MAXes only.

[Zulthus]

Sirisian, why did you have to post this thread in another? It's completely dead.

[SniperSteve]

Join the TR and play the MAX class.

[VioletZero]

Join the TR and play the MAX class.

Are we even certain the TR MAX will be like the first game? O_o

[Coreldan]

Lockdown was confirmed, but I think thats all we know.

[Sirisian]

Sirisian, why did you have to post this thread in another? It's completely dead.
Because it's the coolest idea ever. I want to akimbo all the weapons. That and it shows how silly this community is in regards to making assumptions and hiding behind realism when it comes to fun gameplay. </trololo> Seriously when people link to real life videos and go "look it's hard" I'm like "that looks so freaking cool".

Also deep down I think you know it to be true or you wouldn't have made the thread. Don't sheeple now. Stay strong.

Need I say more?
Nope. That was cool. Also we have reticules in the game for aiming so it should be fine. Now I want a cash shop option to fire my pistol gangster style.
Executive Command - YouTube
Equilibrium - Not without incident - YouTube

[Graywolves]

I personally find dual-wielding/akimbo stale and overplayed in shooters. It just looks silly.


I love equilibrium and if you could use pistols in the game like that, it would be awesome.


But we all know that if akimbo/dual-wielding is implemented you're just going to be firing two weapons at a big CoF around the center of your screen.

[Sirisian]

But we all know that if akimbo/dual-wielding is implemented you're just going to be firing two weapons at a big CoF around the center of your screen.
I prefer dual reticules. For instance when using dual pistols you would see 2 reticules. Firing one (left clicking) only slightly changes the reticule of the other. So while the base accuracy might be higher and the accuracy modifier per shot might be slightly higher than a single gun you could conceivably control your fire by alternating left and right shots.

Again though balancing is done via a weapon matrix defining dual weapon modifiers for every weapon in the game in combination for every weapon in the game. So pistol + grenade is different than pistol + med tool or pistol + pistol or pistol + assault rifle etc. It also defines combinations that aren't allows like 2 handed weapons like the TR machine gun as a simple example. However, since rocket launchers are shoulder fired you have the fun of allowing say a loadout with dual rocket launchers.

I think this point is kind of moot though. You'll notice on the inventory screen they're already too far in development for radical changes like this. That's why this was brought up months ago, but the devs apparently though it was a no-go.

[Coreldan]

but the devs apparently though it was a no-go.

..and for that reason I still have faith in humanity :D

[Talek Krell]

Because it's the coolest idea ever.Sure, according to the guy who wants dual wield rocket launchers.

[HitbackTR]

No. No. No.