Field/Mobile Spawn Points

[Draep]

With the AMS gone, I hear spawn points are now going to be squad leaders and galaxies. I was wondering if a ground transport vehicle would get the same benefits as the galaxy. I think this is a really neat idea that would make ground transports and galaxies very valuable on the battlefield and negates the need for an AMS driver, who has to separate himself from the infantry somewhat and vehicle drivers.

Then again a lot of people really like the AMS and I wouldn't see the harm of including it.

[Surge72]

I see no need to allow repawn in ground transport vehicles with the Galaxy allowing it. What would ground transports bring that the Galaxy wouldn't?

While the AMS has gone, its role is still there, only this time filled by the Galaxy. I can imagine Galaxies landing in strategic / tactical places to be used as a forward base, just as AMS'es are used now.

[basti]

I see no need to allow repawn in ground transport vehicles with the Galaxy allowing it. What would ground transports bring that the Galaxy wouldn't?

While the AMS has gone, its role is still there, only this time filled by the Galaxy. I can imagine Galaxies landing in strategic / tactical places to be used as a forward base, just as AMS'es are used now.

Oh, didnt think of that. Landing them, instead of having them hover and be raining men. That may actually be the case, and thats prolly better than the ams. First of all, its faster to get a AMS somewhere this way, and also this removes a vehicle that had no other role than letting people spawn. :)

[Draep]

Though of course we don't know, I think the Galaxy will be more along the lines of the raining men idea, which is why I think ground transports should have a similar ability. I wonder if you would be able to spawn in the same vehicle as a well certed commander regardless of the vehicle type?

Not forcing the gal to land would speed up gameplay and give the gal a good reason to provide a support role with the guns. Also, ground transports have their advantages over the galaxy.

[Killerobe]

Though of course we don't know, I think the Galaxy will be more along the lines of the raining men idea, which is why I think ground transports should have a similar ability. I wonder if you would be able to spawn in the same vehicle as a well certed commander regardless of the vehicle type?

Not forcing the gal to land would speed up gameplay and give the gal a good reason to provide a support role with the guns. Also, ground transports have their advantages over the galaxy.

I think that idea would be imbalanced due to the mobility and firepower of ground transport. The thing about the AMS is it was slow and cumbersome with only passive defenses. Imagine a squad of deliverers just screaming around a base at top speed littering soldiers as exhaust. It would be very hard for the other side to take down that kind of mobile platform. The only thing I could see is if the vehicle was standing still and deployed of some sorts.

[Sentrosi]

I hope that it's not going to be me orbiting an enemy SOI. I'm hoping is that I have to travel back to a friendly SOI and the troops are 'uploaded' into the Galaxy for me to drop them off.

[DviddLeff]

Sunderer or equivalent is a much smaller target than a gal, giving it an immediate advantage in that respect.

[Draep]

Sunderer or equivalent is a much smaller target than a gal, giving it an immediate advantage in that respect.

And can use ground cover easily. I think sunderer and equiv should be the only ground transports that allow respawning. Allow for squad/outfit lockable seats and you have the perfect assault weapon.

[Graywolves]

Well if the enemy has air superiority or very strong anti-air I'd prefer to have a ground vehicle spawning people.

Unless I could put wheels on my galaxy and drive around.

[XPquant]

I think following along the idea of specialization the vehicles should have command mods/hard-point/slot whatever their calling it that is unlocked via the command tree. Limiting your strategic and tactical spawns to the air is going to make the game incredibly air intensive which most people are not going to enjoy. No matter how faced paced they want it to be a forward, mobile command base is going to be required.

[Crator]

I'm an avid AMS driver so I will miss it. No one has listed the benefits of the AMS over the new PS2 GAL:

You could be fairly covert with the AMS since it was on the ground and could deploy it quickly to cloak it. You were on the ground so you could choose routes that would allow you to avoid the enemy easily.

With the PS2 GAL all up in the air and stuff, not sure how you could do those thing that the AMS could do on the ground.

[Lonehunter]

I will miss the AMS. It was a true symbol of PS's flexibility. If the next base over was captured and you where waiting at your base's tower, setting up CE, what ever to get ready. Aside from the general direction of the next base you had no idea where the infantry would come from, some hidden spawn piont over the hill, through the trees, or across a lake?

I really hope there is some kind of ground equivalent to the Galaxy. I imagine something like a Sundy. Slow, high armor, bigger cloak bubble, but can spawn MAXs.

[BorisBlade]

Dont forget they are really gettin into that horrible squad spawning bs where you magically appear next to any squadmate, with your wizard hat in hand, and mounted on a unicorn. Cause why use strategically placed vehicles for tactics when you can do god awful ideas from other games that dont play at all like PS.

They seriously should bring the AMS back, gives you a ground and air mobile spawn point, each with ups and downs. And obviously drop the lame magic fairy squad spawn bs.

[Graywolves]

Dont forget they are really gettin into that horrible squad spawning bs where you magically appear next to any squadmate, with your wizard hat in hand, and mounted on a unicorn. Cause why use strategically placed vehicles for tactics when you can do god awful ideas from other games that dont play at all like PS.

They seriously should bring the AMS back, gives you a ground and air mobile spawn point, each with ups and downs. And obviously drop the lame magic fairy squad spawn bs.

Wizard staff, this isn't harry potter, we're in battle and the staff is far more viable.

[Draep]

I thought infantry squad spawning would require a hart like drop pod, not magic

[NapalmEnima]

I thought infantry squad spawning would require a hart like drop pod, not magic

Yep. That's what I heard as well.

Magic? "Any sufficiently advanced technology" and all that.

Nerd's Corollary: "Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced"

[Talek Krell]

It does use a drop pod, but why let information get in the way of complaining eh?

I will compose my thoughts better shortly.

[Talek Krell]

If Gals are going to be spawning troops then I think it's probably necessary for ground transports to have the ability as well so that both forms of transport are viable options. Assuming that both the Deliverer and Sunderer appear in PS2, I see the 3 transports filling a unique niche. This isn't gonna be short, so if you want the quick version then try skimming the headers.



Galaxy
Role: Air mobile troop deployment

Pros:
Mobility
Unusual deployment options

Cons:
Highly visible
Unremarkable armor

The Galaxy is the only transport with the ability to spawn troops on the move, and can drop those troops into areas of a base that would otherwise be unreachable. An airborne Gal is easy to spot however and has only moderate armor and poor maneuverability, making it a juicy target in enemy airspace.

Ground Transports
To prevent the issue that Killerobe brought up, ground transports must deploy before they can spawn troops.

Sunderer
Role: Siege Engine

Pros:
Heavy armor
Heavy weaponry
Protective equipment

Cons:
Terrible agility and acceleration
Obvious target

Only slightly more subtle than a thermonuclear device, the Sunderer is a modern siege engine. It is slow to accelerate and difficult to maneuver, but once it's moving it can plow through most obstacles, including any MBTs unfortunate/desperate enough to be between the transport and it's destination. It has heavy armor on all sides, allowing it to absorb significant amounts of fire from multiple directions. It has a large number of mounting points and a variety of available weapons, including heavy cannons, HMGs, and heavy AA guns. Module options are mostly defensive or disruptive, such as an EMP generator to clear minefields and disable enemy vehicles and a shield generator that creates a shield dome around the vehicle when it has deployed allowing troops time to get their bearings under fire.

Deliverer
Role: Unconventional warfare

Pros:
Small and agile
Amphibious
EWAR equipment

Cons:
Lightly armored
Unable to spawn MAX units

Where the Sunderer uses brute force, the Deliverer uses finesse and flexibility. It's agility and speed allow it to outrun most enemies it can't fight, and it's amphibious nature and powerful engine allow it to traverse terrain that other vehicles might find difficult or impossible. It has only a couple of hardpoints and can use only light weaponry such as MGs and mortar launchers, intended only to ward off single opponents and support advancing troops. It's module options are it's most indespensible feature and include advanced sensor and sensor jamming equipment as well as a cloaking bubble inherited from the AMS design.



TLDR: Skim the pros and cons and you'll get the general idea.

[Crator]

^^^ Sounds good to me. I don't care if it isn't the AMS, as long as there is a spawn mechanic on ground vehicles. Are you talking about deploying these ground vehicles to be able to spawn troops? Will they have a cloak shield when deployed?

[Talek Krell]

They must deploy to spawn, and may have some equipment that only activates when deployed. For example the Deli inherits the cloak bubble from the AMS in my design, whereas the Sundy can equip a shield module.

[Crator]

Awesome!

[Brusi]

I like the sunderer idea...

Undeployed: Slow Moving, Spawn points unavailable.
http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080629221057/starcraft/images/thumb/e/e4/SiegeTank_SC2_Rend1.jpg/200px-SiegeTank_SC2_Rend1.jpg

Deployed: Immobile, Spawn points available.
http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080629221117/starcraft/images/thumb/2/27/SiegeTank_SC2_Rend2.jpg/200px-SiegeTank_SC2_Rend2.jpg

[Mezorin]

Why use ground vehicles over a galaxy?

Because the ground vehicles can move with the squad, have heavy armor, and can help support the troops on the ground rather than just flying over and dumping paratroopers off. If you want to "fast response" to a base that's not heavily guarded, you Galaxy drop. If you need to get two full squads to a hot objective while fighting off massed enemy troops, vehicles, and defenses, you roll the Sunderers with tank/AAA escort in and fight. Rather than being a joke vehicle, a fully loaded sunderer along with its armor escort showing up then unloading the infantry should mean "shit just got real" in any front line battle.


The ground vehicles could use a serious overhaul from PS1, but should be more along the lines of real life infantry fighting vehicles and transportation, that fits into the planetside universe. In other words, the mainstay of mechanized infantry who move in along side the main armor to a battle zone, then disembark when the fighting starts with the vehicle providing cover.

Sunderers should not only have full on re spawning and all that, but also some sort of defensive/buff systems that make infantry want to hang around the said sunderer and protect it. Think possibly an AOE healing field, or even a giant forward facing BFR style shield that friendly units can hide behind for cover. MAX suits re spawning out of Sunderer is debateable, I'll let the devs decide on this one. Ideally, Sunderers should help be an equalizer in benefit for the foot-soldiers in vehicle verses infantry combat.

Deliverers should be more along the line of modern Infantry Fighting Vehicles, with a half decent level of fire powerful for a light tank, and allow regular infantry spawns. Ideally with one driver, one gunner (on a 40mm auto cannon or equivalent weapontry), and 4 passanger/spawn points who can either fire out of firing ports, or bail out and fight. Faster speed, and the ability to move over water would be the main reasons for rolling Deliverers instead of Sunderers. A 40mm autocannon that's awesome against foot soldiers, light vehicles, and low flying planes and decent armor is the reason you'd use a Deliverer over a Galaxy.

[Grimster]

The Galaxy will also probably become a even worse bullet magnet than it has ever been in PS due to its capability of spawning troops. :)

[Draep]

I'm glad someone finally agrees with me on this point.

[FastAndFree]

The Galaxy will also probably become a even worse bullet magnet than it has ever been in PS

Is that even possible?

Also who knows, maybe it will have the option of a (ground) deployable cloak field...

[Traak]

The Galaxy will also probably become a even worse bullet magnet than it has ever been in PS due to its capability of spawning troops. :)

Give the Galaxy a cloak bubble when deployed.

[Majikk]

If they rework the Galaxy to be heavily armored, give it gun turrets and a sizable crew to use them, it creates a huge opportunity. Keep it airborn, let it rain soldiers onto the battlefield, and allow fighter craft to escort her -everywhere-.

If a Galaxy has enough armor and turrets to withstand a casual assault, then spawns are about air superiority, which opens things up for the air game. This would be nice.

On the other hand, the squad leader spawn does have its perks. If it's easy to tell a squad leader from the rank and file, he becomes an immediate target. Everyone will know to kill the officers first... a hefty price to have on your head.

Things completely fall apart with spawning to any teammate (which was described as the 'rank 2 ability'). Everyone will have that skill to rank 2. You'll never be able to get rid of a squad, and the 'target the officers' thing will go to waste, since it won't matter.

[FIREk]

If a Galaxy has enough armor and turrets to withstand a casual assault, then spawns are about air superiority, which opens things up for the air game. This would be nice.

I haven't thought about this. Airborne Gal spawns make it more worthwhile for Mossie/Reaver pilots to engage in air combat, rather than only farm infantry and fight targets only when it's necessary. :)

Ground-based spawning does have its merits too, though... I hope that a Gal will be able to land and deploy with a shield bubble + terminal + tube, like an AMS...

[ThGlump]

Gal will be good for front line spawning, but cant replace AMS in covert operations behind enemy lines. Even if it will have cloak, you cant just hide gal in the forest under trees. So you wont have any respawn in case whole squad will be wiped out in the base.

New "AMS" will be dual-boxed (its F2P) cloakers in every squad, sitting outside the base in case squad need to respawn.

[SgtMAD]

I have seen one post that has it sort of figured out,the rest of you are just thrashing around things that we just don't know yet.

I am thinking that small outfits are going to have a hard time getting anything done against the hundreds of ppl you will see at all these fights at the release,I think 20 guys are going to get wiped out so fast,you will see 50 ppl showing up for resecures,any gal parked or"hid" is dead unless you hold that CY with aircraft up and and actively patrolling and i mean enough air to hold off a major response,you will also need AA set up in the CY to help keep the air alive.

that leads to the armor you are going to need to hold the CY so your AA stays up to cover the air that covers the armor that covers the AA while you have a platoon inside to hold down the base.

I think you are going to need atleast two full platoons to get anything done and with no one able to be logged on all the time you will need more ppl than that to be active in your outfit.

I think its going to be a combined arms game more than PS was which means you need more ppl than you did in PS,where you could take a base with 20 of the right guys.

[BorisBlade]

It does use a drop pod, but why let information get in the way of complaining eh?

Doesnt matter if its a drop pod or not,(i know there are drop pods for it) thats like sayin "thats not the kind of lighter fluid they use when they set you on fire", it doesnt matter, you still burn. With drop pods you still have the same problems. You cant take out a spawn point when there are 500 of em. There are no tactics to placement either like an AMS. What makes good gameplay are teh back and forth sort of "cat and mouse" tactics. If its just zerg and kill then it gets old fast. It works in bf cause its teeny tiny game in comparison, with linear lines of fight, and is designed to be much shorter gameplay wise and much simpler. Its not about front lines and the like that PS is. Squad spawnin destroys that.

If i told you that you could get an ams that was always cloaked so no one could see you comin, only downside being it drove as fast as a cloaker could sprint. And btw everyone else can get the non cloaked version they can carry in their backpack at all times, thats always active and you dont have to deploy to use it. You would call that retarded and OP. Squad spawnin does that. You can send a cloaker to any point completely hidden and spawn on him.

There are no limits on how many certs you can get in ps2, so eventualy everyone will have squad spawnin, and everyone will have it maxed out for low respawn time etc. Plus no one who leads a squad would not get it, nor would anyone get in a squad who doesnt have somethin so ridiculously OP compared to other spawn means. So its pretty much guaranteed to be there. The excuse of needing to cert for it doesnt hold up.

They dont allow squad spawnin indoors but keep in mind we will have capture points of all kinds for each "hex/hex cluster" so the indoor part would only limit you on a few parts of the map. Think about it, you drive in and kill 29/30 people guarding a point. But now because they have squad spawnin every single one of them just drops right back in on the last guy and you gotta do it all over again. Unless you can kill every single one of em before they can respawn then you cant take em out. And with cloakers around, you wont do that. The AMS was one of the best ideas to come to an FPS, esp one of this type. Squad spawnin, while fine in zergy and tactic-less quickmatch games, is terrible for a game like PS.

Dont see why we need to change to a crappy spawn system when the AMS was such a good idea to begin with and worked very well. And for teh record, i like the gal "flyin ams" idea. Obviously it will have to be balanced correctly for a few things but overall its great. Takes tactics to use, and can be takin out and stopped. Fits fine in PS.

[Talek Krell]

This
you are just thrashing around things that we just don't know yet.

For this
A bunch of unfounded nonsense.

[sylphaen]

Great discussions in this thread. Thanks everyone for taking the time to share your opinions !
:)

About squad-leader spawning, I'm not a huge fan either but if well-implemented (i.e. not OP mechanics), maybe it could have its interesting sides, I don't know.

Rather than being a joke vehicle, a fully loaded sunderer along with its armor escort showing up then unloading the infantry should mean "shit just got real" in any front line battle.

That made me feel good ! I'm also a fan of the IFV idea. Troopers unloading and the serious gunfight starting.
:D

[Brusi]

Feel free to correct or add...

Things we know about squad spawning:


Any infantry can aquire the skill (leadership tree)
The skill allows other squadmates to choose the person with the skill as a spawn location
It takes the form of outdoor (H.A.R.T style) drop pod deployment
Cooldowns will be implemented
Loosly based on BF squad spawning


Things we don't know about squad spawning:
(Brace yourselves, this list is going to keep outgrowing the first list for quite a while)


How long is the cooldown timer
How easy/quick is it to get aquire the skill
How accurate the drop pod will be
Will MAX's be able to squad spawn (i assume so)
Will it be on an individual player timer or the squad leaders timer for the whole squad
Will the timer be based around waves or reinforcement or keeping squad coherency
How large are the indoor areas of the game (apparently larger than PS)
Other limitations or balancing measures...

[Talek Krell]

Will MAX's be able to squad spawn (i assume so)That's actually a good question. You have to have the gal skilled properly to do it, so they're treating them as special still.

[Brusi]

Now that i think about it, do we even know this one?

The skill allows other squadmates to choose the person with the skill as a spawn location

[Traak]

I would like AMS functions in a ground vehicle.

The flight mechanics of PS were absolutely atrocious. Having to go and reset my settings in the UI every time I got in or out of a plane completely blew.

I hope they fix this and you can have two completely divorced sets of mouse settings for flight and ground.

[Malorn]

I like the idea of Transports being spawn points. We saw this in BF2142 with the APC in that game being a spawn point for your side if you controlled it.

Galaxies circling over a base dropping reinforcements is kinda cool and gives AA and air superiority a critical role.

That said, I also like the idea of BF2142 APCs with "drop pods" launchable from them so there is a ground variant of the same thing. Even if it doesn't have drop pod launchers just having an APC spawn ponit would be good. The point of the APC is to get infantry into battle just like the galaxy. I don't want to see PS APCs being the kill farms they are in the battlefield games though. Their role should be transport, delivery, and spawn point with some reasonable defense weapons.

Having an APC (sunderer, deli, whatever - combine them into a vehicle in-between the size of those two) that can roll up and then launch a group of infantry onto an area and then spawn more seems like a great way to replace the AMS.

With air transports having the same role (galaxy) I think we can effectively eliminate the need for AMS while still providiong obvious targets for removal of enemy spawn points.

[sylphaen]

I disagree.

Simple question: why would you want APCs with spawn points when you would just bring a medic ?

___________

By making an AMS-transport vehicle, the balance mindset of a dev will be to tone down another feature of the vehicle, be it speed/armor/firepower/other functionalities. And if we want an AMS style cloaked-deployment on those vehicles, good luck getting any weapons.

I did not like the transport-vehicle spawn mechanic of BF2142. It was meant for maps with capture points and also made the battle too diffuse (which was also the point of having multiple capture points).

However, I feel the devs are thinking about bringing the Titan concept to PS2 and I love that. It will be the attacker's super AMS while the base will be the defender's super AMS.

The way I see PS2 is that it will offer a linear main-battle axis (i.e. Galaxy to Galaxy, Galaxy to base) with plenty of side-objectives which different teams will fight for to get tactical advantages (e.g. radar "interlink" site, etc...).

A too potent ground spawning option would make the galaxy less important and make the life of defenders annoying as hell. Especially if people can keep spawning on the move. Easy respawn on the objective would also make medics less critical (ref. the whole debate about squad spawning on another thread).

So I dont know...

___________

In the end, if Galaxies are indeed meant to be like BF2142 titans, I don't see why Galaxies would not be able to drop down transport vehicles along with troops. eg.: squad drops, everyone gets in the IFV, move towards the objective, fight around there, medic drives the IFV and res people if they get shot. If he gets shot or the IFV gets shot, too bad ! He was not covered well enough. The other empire would have to do the same thing btw.

Voila ! Your IFV has respawn mechanics with a medic and the risk is having him shot by AV if he stays in or getting sniped if he gets out. That way, denying spawn points is not limited to AV who cant run after a vehicle.

And since the IFV does not need cloak/AMS, they can make it go fast, have armor and some defensive capabilities ! In short, a good transport vehicle. And your squad gets to have fun together !

If you lose your medics --> squad spawn, yay ! Keep on fighting !

________
Edit:
And since now the IFV is important too, we get to customization dilemnas ! Do you want your IFV to:
- reach the contested objective faster ? (Speed)
- reach the objective more safely ? (Armor)
- provide more suppression/support fire ? (Fire)

I'm in my own big bubble dream when I think something like that but heh... :P
Just a Planetside with Titans would be awesome.

[Draep]

I disagree.

Simple question: why would you want APCs with spawn points when you would just bring a medic ?

___________

By making an AMS-transport vehicle, the balance mindset of a dev will be to tone down another feature of the vehicle, be it speed/armor/firepower/other functionalities. And if we want an AMS style cloaked-deployment on those vehicles, good luck getting any weapons.

I did not like the transport-vehicle spawn mechanic of BF2142. It was meant for maps with capture points and also made the battle too diffuse (which was also the point of having multiple capture points).

However, I feel the devs are thinking about bringing the Titan concept to PS2 and I love that. It will be the attacker's super AMS while the base will be the defender's super AMS.

The way I see PS2 is that it will offer a linear main-battle axis (i.e. Galaxy to Galaxy, Galaxy to base) with plenty of side-objectives which different teams will fight for to get tactical advantages (e.g. radar "interlink" site, etc...).

A too potent ground spawning option would make the galaxy less important and make the life of defenders annoying as hell. Especially if people can keep spawning on the move. Easy respawn on the objective would also make medics less critical (ref. the whole debate about squad spawning on another thread).

So I dont know...

___________

In the end, if Galaxies are indeed meant to be like BF2142 titans, I don't see why Galaxies would not be able to drop down transport vehicles along with troops. eg.: squad drops, everyone gets in the IFV, move towards the objective, fight around there, medic drives the IFV and res people if they get shot. If he gets shot or the IFV gets shot, too bad ! He was not covered well enough. The other empire would have to do the same thing btw.

Voila ! Your IFV has respawn mechanics with a medic and the risk is having him shot by AV if he stays in or getting sniped if he gets out. That way, denying spawn points is not limited to AV who cant run after a vehicle.

And since the IFV does not need cloak/AMS, they can make it go fast, have armor and some defensive capabilities ! In short, a good transport vehicle. And your squad gets to have fun together !

If you lose your medics --> squad spawn, yay ! Keep on fighting !

________
Edit:
And since now the IFV is important too, we get to customization dilemnas ! Do you want your IFV to:
- reach the contested objective faster ? (Speed)
- reach the objective more safely ? (Armor)
- provide more suppression/support fire ? (Fire)

I'm in my own big bubble dream when I think something like that but heh... :P
Just a Planetside with Titans would be awesome.



Where do I begin?

[sylphaen]

Do like me, just share what you would like to see ?
:)

If the devs do read those posts, they will pick what they like, leave what they don't. And it might give all of us even better ideas/dreams of what our dream MMOFPS would be.
:P

Forumside, basically. We don't know anything significant about PS2.
^^

And whatever we have been told is subject to change.

I'd quote Smedley saying strictly no BFRs last year and T-Ray who said they would be able to make it work this time. Unfortunately, I don't have the exact sources.