Combat Engineering - Fortification Engineering

[2coolforu]

Given the trend towards customizable skills and diversity I thought that combat engineering could be one of the cert trees that could be made particularly dynamic and versatile. In Planetside there were a lot of changes to CE and the amount you could deploy, I thought fortification engineering and many of the most recent iterations of CE were really good ideas just not executed to maximum potential.

Area Denial

The volume of mines that an engineer(s) could deploy and the area of territory they could deny to the enemy and the time period they could do it for was not an equal pay off to the effort put in. The hedgehogs were a brilliant idea but you simply did not get enough of them to have a serious effect on an enemy, an engineer should be able to deploy a larger amount of weaker hedgehogs to deny routes to the enemy and create chokepoints. This is especially important as open terrain becomes valuable, capturable areas, an engineer that can create beneficial terrain for friendly units would be a huge asset to a team, it would be vital to have a dedicated engineer/engineer outfit.

Support
with higher lethality of every weapon and higher fragility of vehicles and troops combined with open areas being as valuable as facilities there will be a huge demand for cover and fortifications. We know that engineers can deploy an operable turret similar to the ones from Planetside however what if they could deploy simple sandbag walls or makeshift barricades. These would only be deployable outside of a base but would provide infantry cover in the more open territories. Perhaps the most certed engineer would be able to trade off deploying MG nests for deploying a pillbox that multiple infantry can occupy and fire out of with their rifles.

There is a lot of possibilities for what an engineer could do, a few ideas seem to give them to much role overlap (Deploy a first aid tent? Perhaps this should be a medic ability) but I think a major thing they should be able to create is a mortar pit/light indirect fire weaponry. This would mean we could have a combat effective dedicated engineer, from reading a lot of threads lots of people who dedicated themselves to support roles did so because they didn't have the PC to enter direct fray or felt they did not have the connection/ability to take part in one on one combat - true, light indirect fire weapons are something I thought Planetside needed (flail didn't really fill this role) and the engineer would have to sacrifice the rifle slot to carry the weapon. With lower TTK's comes a defender advantage, lower TTK's tend to make camping a more effective tactic and puts the attacker at more of a disadvantage. Given the increased defensive bonuses that would be given through the new engineer abilities a mortar would help balance the field as it would be able to saturate fortified positions.

Since air combat seems to be coming more and more powerful, one man can pilot a bomber and drop bombs and we have flying spawn points then infantry may require more AA defence. An engineer could trade off between an MG/Mortar/AA Defence. The AA defence would be a simple SAM site that would require someone manning it [or it could be automated depending on balance] Obviously this is a lot of junk to add in so far into the dev schedule however they are possibilities for the '3 year plan'.
Vehicle Warfare

Since SOE seem to be giving tanks realistic armor, perhaps engineers would be able to deploy tank bunkers, basically a dirt pile that shields the front and sides of the tank and means that the only visible part is the turret.

Tank traps may be required to negate the larger amounts of 1 man tanks, dragons teeth or hedgehogs fill in this role. Another object could be an AT gun, like a Pak 38 or ZiS-3 from WW2, these would be terrible against anything but a tank.

[Senyu]

In a game that prides its self in versatility and a wide variety of roles and skills I hope playing the defensive engineer constructing fortifications is definitly in the game and done right and fun.

Given that I can't wait to see all kinds of possiblities, some of which you mentioned and the others on that Planetside Idea site.



But I'll ask this, with territories now in the game seperating the map into zones, should engineer fortifications/constructs be effected in any way in its zone (EX. Base benifits, Faction Controlled, etc...) which could range from tiny to big in any direction. Or remain completly untouched and uneffected except from engineers control and skills. Remeber if it is affected it could have either negative or positive effects depending on whats in the game. I can imagine a facility bonus giving some small benifit to engineers stuff

[NapalmEnima]

I can imagine a facility bonus giving some small benifit to engineers stuff

I don't believe PS2 has facility bonuses at the moment, though that is subject to change.

Owning a facility gives everyone on that continent some resources over time. I imagine a given facility will provide a single type of resource, and that the quantity will be determined by the size of the facility/area controlled.

Capturing a facility gives a resource bonus to everyone involved in the capture.

[Senyu]

I don't believe PS2 has facility bonuses at the moment, though that is subject to change.

Owning a facility gives everyone on that continent some resources over time. I imagine a given facility will provide a single type of resource, and that the quantity will be determined by the size of the facility/area controlled.

Capturing a facility gives a resource bonus to everyone involved in the capture.

:( I miss the facility bonuses. I was even hoping they would become more advance and you would be able to create combos in your benifits depending what facilities you have and more bonuses than just 8% more explosion damage or just unlocking tech.


EDIT: I want facility Bonus/Benifits require a flowchart

[nomotog]

:( I miss the facility bonuses. I was even hoping they would become more advance and you would be able to create combos in your benifits depending what facilities you have and more bonuses than just 8% more explosion damage or just unlocking tech.


EDIT: I want facility Bonus/Benifits require a flowchart

I think they are kind of going for that. Just in a different way. Depending on what sectors your fraction controls, you get a stream of resources and you can then use thous resources to buy benefits. One example they gave was a night vision scope, so it's kind of like what you want. Just more granular (capturing that tower can give you many different befits based on what class or fraction you play) and the benefits kind of build up and drain away slowly.
(You could defiantly do a flow chart with this system.)


On the topic of fortification. I actually think that bases should start out with no defenses except maybe walls and doors with some places not even having them. Then, you let the engineer basically build all the turrets themselves, or maybe allow them to carry in turrets from other places (CTF style).

The usefulness of mines is really going to be based on how they do the maps. How man chock points and where they are. Though a wild idea might be to let engineers lay down as many mines as they want and just balance mines from there.

[NapalmEnima]

On the topic of fortification. I actually think that bases should start out with no defenses except maybe walls and doors with some places not even having them.

I don't believe bases will have walls/courtyards at all. Hard to be sure at this point, but that's the impression I got over lunch.

[Atuday]

I don't believe bases will have walls/courtyards at all. Hard to be sure at this point, but that's the impression I got over lunch.

No walls just 360 degree wall of steel turrets for the TR, disk lasers on crack for the VS, and velociraptors with triple barrel 150mm cannons for the NC. Oh and the NC raptors have aim bot and can cloak.

[Graywolves]

No walls just 360 degree wall of steel turrets for the TR, disk lasers on crack for the VS, and velociraptors with triple barrel 150mm cannons for the NC. Oh and the NC raptors have aim bot and can cloak.



I thought they were doing more than reskinning PS1?

[Zulthus]

I thought they were doing more than reskinning PS1?

:rofl:


So true.

[Talek Krell]

I recall there being a concept for an "engineering vehicle" lightning variant over on the Planetside ideas site. With open field warfare becoming a thing, perhaps that could be revisited. Could be a prerequisite for some of the larger fortifications, thus giving attackers something to priority target and defenders something to cover and protect.

[NapalmEnima]

Real life combat engineer vehicles do things like:

Make lots of sand bags
clear mines
deliver fixed-length bridges
Remove barriers (armored bulldozers & the odd HE cannon)

[Talek Krell]

If they're going to clear mines, I think they should also lay them. That would make things interesting...

[Brusi]

I was thinking about them adding something like this the other day...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4b/M4a4_flail_cfb_borden_1.JPG/250px-M4a4_flail_cfb_borden_1.JPG

[Talek Krell]

Yeah, something exactly like that. So if your enemy has a bunch of mines down then those things have to push through first and be followed by other armor. OOOoooo, and make that a module rather than default equipment, interchangeable with stuff like the mine layer, or maybe a crane/winch for building fortifications....

[Raymac]

I love every word in this thread. When Higby mentioned the .50 cal type gun an engie can deploy, I got all excited. I love field battles, and things like this can create bridge-type battles only without the bridge. Setting up hardpoints, and subsequently breaking through them is hopefully a good sized portion of the game.

[NapalmEnima]

A lot of the success of a fighting position depends on the defenders ability to create cover.

Unless the terrain is deformable (which would be awesome), they pretty much have to let engineers deploy something destroyable. That might be a force field projector, or a bunker/wall with some convenient firing slits. Perhaps both.

[Chaff]

I love every word in this thread. When Higby mentioned the .50 cal type gun an engie can deploy, I got all excited. I love field battles, and things like this can create bridge-type battles only without the bridge. Setting up hardpoints, and subsequently breaking through them is hopefully a good sized portion of the game.


I like this thread too.

Not eveyone has uber kill ability. I have the hand-eye reaction time of a drunk Armadillo.

I always liked the Engie capabilities. I'd love to see more ENG abilities in PS2. They can come later. I can't imagine the DEVs not feeling the same. I feel lucky that these cats seem to love this game as much as the rest of us. I hope they're on this thread - I suspect they are - they're EVERYWHERE !
A lot of good content and expansion of gameplay here.

hmmmmm ..... DEFORMABLE TERRAIN ? ....the proper certed ENG uses his uber glue stick to add a bulldozer blade to a tank ..... and then the tank driver is temporarily part of that ENG team ... or can simply create his own gunnery hole.... maybe the tank driver can leave the bulldozer blade on - at the loss of significant speed and manueverabilty - but gets a net gain in front armor by having that huge blade in front of his tank (probably should cause the driver to suffer significant visibility loss as well)

....dug-in tanks would be bomber fodder....makes a tank work more as a fixed artillery piece while "dug-in"....now I'm ramblin' and dreamin'....still good stuff in this thread IMHO.

:love:

[Traak]

If they're going to clear mines, I think they should also lay them. That would make things interesting...

lol menu option: Retask Enemy Minefield.

[moosepoop]

i think the field deployable turrets need to be stronger, and more varied. it would make engineer certs more diverse and interesting.

i found gunning field turrets very fun, but they were incredibly underpowered. it was more productive to park a tank and use it as a turret than trying to deploy one most of the time. i hope the dev team can make the field turret more usable. it was very satisfying to gun one of those.

[Talek Krell]

Yeah, those engie turrets in PS1 were a cool idea but I think they mostly tended to be deathtraps. the MG emplacement they mentioned makes me think they're moving in the right direction with it.

Ninja edited for clarity!

[Crator]

They had them in PS1. They really didn't last long. Too low of armor. If they give PS2 turrets more armor or if they are just easier/faster/more to deploy it may work a bit better.

[NapalmEnima]

I hope the deployable guns:

* Have multiple weapon variants, including at least one empire-specific weapon.
* Have some protection so the gunner isn't just sniper bait. A nice armor plate out front and/or a shield generator of its own would do the trick quite nicely.

A tripod with a gun is just going to get the gunner killed (though they might take 1 or 2 folks with them). Not very satisfying unless you can set up a kill box with multiple guns and wipe out everyone as they approach.

[Talek Krell]

I'm envisioning them as a sandbagged foxhole with something like a 110 degree field of fire. The sort of thing that you'd set up to cover a base entrance or an open approach in field warfare.

[nomotog]

Stealth turrets and maybe have it so that you can upgrade the turrets Team Fortress style.

[Chaff]

I like the idea of an ENG deploying a field turret AND somehow adding (the same ENG, or other/additional ENG(s) some cover or protection for it.

A small Outfit could deploy 4 of these on the downside (out of sight) of a hill (on a road or major route thru the terrain), lay out a mine filed, and throw havoc on an enemy supply line for several minutes. Destroy vehicles and kill some enemies. Pack up, and set up house at another strategic choke point. Done wisely, a small group of engies could really frustrate and slow an enemy down.

If an opposing empire was moving significant amounts of troops and resources by air, deployable AA field turrets on high points in the terrain along the primary air route(s) could also slow down the enemy.