Kill Cams

[Hamma]

So.. It's now confirmed there will be kill cams.

https://twitter.com/#!/PS_TRay/status/119910851061874688

What do you guys think? I'm not so hot on this idea..

[Talek Krell]

This is kind of stupid.

[Zulthus]

V-V-N

Please reconsider. Kill cams are for COD and BF.

[Sifer2]

That more than anything else is an indicator of them possibly taking the wrong direction with the game an lowering health way too much. Since generally kill cams are only added to games where you die in a few shots an so didn't have time to know who or what it was that killed you.

It starting to look like the game will be a modern warfare with sci-fi skin. Needless to say this another feature I don't like. I want to hear a positive change for this game to break the streak of bad news.

[basti]

I wont judge until i see them.

[CutterJohn]

I don't see an issue. The only 'sneaky' kills in the game are from cloakers and snipers. Snipers have a big fat tracer and so aren't that sneaky, and a cloaker will be cloaked and away. So its not like you're going to get some massive free intel.

Since generally kill cams are only added to games where you die in a few shots an so didn't have time to know who or what it was that killed you.

PS1 had the death cam that showed your body and the kill spam that showed what you got shot by.

[Sirisian]

Since generally kill cams are only added to games where you die in a few shots an so didn't have time to know who or what it was that killed you.
My thoughts exactly. In PS1 you got shot and saw your enemy usually before you died. Sounds like you might not know this time so they want to show you in case the player is camping then you see where they were.

All in all it sounds unnecessary. Just go to the loadout screen and show me a map with pictures of any medics around me so I know if I need to tap or not.

[Sifer2]

PS1 had the death cam that showed your body and the kill spam that showed what you got shot by.


Almost every FPS ever has that. World of difference between that and a camera zooming on whatever killed you. And its not so much the fact its in there that bothers me is what it suggests. That they felt it was necessary to add this. As in the gameplay is probably too fast paced like a spawn/die shooter an that they felt people would rage not knowing who killed them in one shot.

[Talek Krell]

PS1 had the death cam that showed your body and the kill spam that showed what you got shot by.Neither of those things showed you what bush on what hill the sniper was hiding in. I don't recall the tracers having been that obvious, and even if so we have no idea what they'll look like this time.

As for the cloaker: If it tracks your killer with the cam then all you do is tell your squadmates (people will be autojoining squads by default, remember) what corner he's hid in. That's a bit much free intel for my tastes.

Whether this is really an issue will depend a lot on what sort of kill cam they mean. If it's going to hover over the body and point in a direction, that won't be so bad. If it's going to zoom over to their location and give you a birds-eye view of them until they respawn then it's a stupid idea. If somebody managed to kill you before you knew what hit you, then you shouldn't know. They did a good job and you got reamed.

[BorisBlade]

Why are any of you surprised? Seriously, every mechanic they can possibly put in from BF, they will do it. They have taken out most PS style stuff and put in BF. Kill cams are of course terrible much like the bf style vehicles, but saw it comin a mile away. They want their BF game, they just take BF, up the players, paste on PS names/factions/graphic look on top, and call it PS2. Not much left they can take from BF honestly, but i can think of a few things, but honestly dont wanna say it as im afraid they would see this and put that crap in too....but i bet they already have it and we just dont know it yet. =(

[LostSoul]

It really all depends on how they implement them, we'll see not a huge game breaker in my humble opinion.

[Elude]

V-V-N

Please reconsider. Kill cams are for COD and BF.

BF never had kill cams. Atleast not to the degree of COD.

[Zulthus]

BF never had kill cams. Atleast not to the degree of COD.

Bad Company 2 and now Battlefield 3.

[SgtMAD]

Why are any of you surprised? Seriously, every mechanic they can possibly put in from BF, they will do it. They have taken out most PS style stuff and put in BF. Kill cams are of course terrible much like the bf style vehicles, but saw it comin a mile away. They want their BF game, they just take BF, up the players, paste on PS names/factions/graphic look on top, and call it PS2. Not much left they can take from BF honestly, but i can think of a few things, but honestly dont wanna say it as im afraid they would see this and put that crap in too....but i bet they already have it and we just dont know it yet. =(

DING DING DING we have a WINNAR!!!!!!!

[Sifer2]

Yeah its shame that if they were gonna rip off Battlefield they didn't at least rip off the one's that were actually good. Like Battlefield 2 an 2142. Rip off those an just bump up health by about 4 times to account for larger number of players an it might actually be ok.

But no it looks like were getting the new age CoD envy version.

[Blue]

THIS IS EXTREMELY DISHEARTENING

Honestly I was so excited to see the new screenies and there have been several things over the past month that i haven't been to happy about but i looked passed them cause its planetside2..a dream come true

But kill cams...seriously?

I don't want people knowing from which angle I'm shooting them from, I dont want them to know where I'm lobbing grenades from, AND I DON'T WANT TO KNOW WHO IS SHOOTING ME FROM WHERE....that's what experience teaches you, and a non-intrusive hit indicator.

PS1 was fine. If anything I would rather keep it in first person, not unlike Last Stand in COD

[Vash02]

I would only support it if the killer had an option they could tick on/off.

[CutterJohn]

Why are any of you surprised? Seriously, every mechanic they can possibly put in from BF, they will do it. They have taken out most PS style stuff and put in BF. Kill cams are of course terrible much like the bf style vehicles, but saw it comin a mile away. They want their BF game, they just take BF, up the players, paste on PS names/factions/graphic look on top, and call it PS2. Not much left they can take from BF honestly, but i can think of a few things, but honestly dont wanna say it as im afraid they would see this and put that crap in too....but i bet they already have it and we just dont know it yet. =(

Game genres evolve. They have to meet the desires of people used to playing todays games.

What else have they done? Infantry classes? Gee only BF has ever done that, right?

Solo killwhore vehicles. Wait.. PS had those too. But its just like BF because they will have a strong secondary position that compliments the vehicle, just like BF, right? Its fine though because just like BF there are only 2 or 3 per map.. Oh wait..

ZOMG! Realistic flight fizziks! STOLE IT FROM BATTLEFIELD!

Squad spawning? Stole it from battlefield? Or not.. PS already had the mechanic with the HARTs. They just eliminated the HART timer and streamlined the process.

Yep. May as well be a BF clone. I bet they even have a soldier walking towards the camera on the box using a shadowy orange pallet.


Almost every FPS ever has that. World of difference between that and a camera zooming on whatever killed you. And its not so much the fact its in there that bothers me is what it suggests. That they felt it was necessary to add this. As in the gameplay is probably too fast paced like a spawn/die shooter an that they felt people would rage not knowing who killed them in one shot.

And almost every FPS now has killcams. And to me it suggests that they think people like kill cams and that it won't give away any useful intel. Theres a sniper on the ridge? No way!

[SgtMAD]

Dude, you are comparing using the Hart to squad spawning?

I guess recalling to sanc,sitting around for up to 5 minutes and then dropping outside the SOI of the base you were attacking is just like dying and then choosing the SL to spawn on?

[Sifer2]

Seems like a contradiction there Cutterjohn. You admit its "evolving" to please todays gamers. Then try to say its not copying them. It's pretty obvious they are copying them when they bring up their names in every interview. As if to say "Hey hey you like Bad Company right?! Were like Bad Company the MMO!"

[CutterJohn]

Dude, you are comparing using the Hart to squad spawning?

I guess recalling to sanc,sitting around for up to 5 minutes and then dropping outside the SOI of the base you were attacking is just like dying and then choosing the SL to spawn on?

I'm saying the functionality existed already. Fall down in a pod near the squad. You could do that in PS1. The only difference is now they are backloading the timer instead of frontloading it and are streamlining the interface to get rid of the loading screens. PS1 had the functional equivalent of a 1-6 minute squad spawn.

Seems like a contradiction there Cutterjohn. You admit its "evolving" to please todays gamers. Then try to say its not copying them. It's pretty obvious they are copying them when they bring up their names in every interview. As if to say "Hey hey you like Bad Company right?! Were like Bad Company the MMO!"

You can incorporate ideas from other games without being a clone. Like all the PS1 ideas 2142 ripped off.

[Raymac]

Rabble rabble rabble BF Clone rabble rabble. :rolleyes:

Instead of acting like a 6 year old girl and just stamping her foot down saying "no", how about some of us use that gray matter thats sitting on our shoulders?

Why have kill cams? It's simple. It may be a long time ago and the memories might be lost to beer hops and bong resin, but when you are new to an MMOFPS, it's fraking hard. There's a huge learning curve.

Hell, this very forum has a number of threads posted by newer players sucking up their pride, opening themselves up to flaming internet ridicule, and asking for help on what do to so they don't die so much. Dying all the time is not fun. Period.

One of the best ways to learn is actually being able to see what you did wrong so you don't repeat it. That's what kill cams do.

Plus, wtf are you guys so afraid of? The person you killed knowing where you came from? Really?

PS1 Newsflash: With the directional hit markers on your hud, you already know which direction you got killed from. I've always said, if I die once to a sniper, shame on him. If I die twice to the same sniper, shame on me.

I'm not surprised a bunch of hardcore Planetsiders don't like the idea, but I am surprised that people are so afraid of their camping spot being found out. Plus, even though they may know where you were when you killed them, they still have to get to you, and since we've all played the game before, we know that's easier said than done.

[Bags]

Agreeing with raymac. I rarely die without knowing where my killer was.

[Marth Koopa]

I don't see an issue. The only 'sneaky' kills in the game are from cloakers and snipers. Snipers have a big fat tracer and so aren't that sneaky, and a cloaker will be cloaked and away. So its not like you're going to get some massive free intel.

The difference between a tracer coming from where you are, flashing for half a second, and a camera pinpointing EXACTLY where you are for 5 seconds, is really big.

At least you need to be paying attention to track sniper shots, a kill cam just goes "he's right here, tell everybody in your squad!"

[CutterJohn]

Yes. He's right there. With the rest of the snipers. On top of some hill undoubtedly, all in a gaggle so they can take shelter under some AA max and CE. Great you called out his position. Now what? Are they going to drop everything and attack that sniper? Theres 100 other targets out there.

The lone sniper elite thing won't happen, because its completely ineffective at accomplishing anything, and people aren't difficult to spot in PS.

[Vash02]

Yes. He's right there. With the rest of the snipers. On top of some hill undoubtedly, all in a gaggle so they can take shelter under some AA max and CE. Great you called out his position. Now what? Are they going to drop everything and attack that sniper? Theres 100 other targets out there.

The lone sniper elite thing won't happen, because its completely ineffective at accomplishing anything, and people aren't difficult to spot in PS. Since when was accomplishing anything a goal for snipers?

[CutterJohn]

Since when was accomplishing anything a goal for snipers?

:rofl:

[Crazyduckling]

im not really sure how i feel. if a sniper kills me, its nice to know where he is at. at the same time, if im the sniper, i will die a lot faster.

in writing, im not a fan of it. even though it can give away the enemy position, i would rather not have my position given away.

we'll see how it works in beta.

[sylphaen]

I usualy like hardcore play so this kind of idea appeals to me:
If somebody managed to kill you before you knew what hit you, then you shouldn't know. They did a good job and you got reamed.

Then again, I also love no kill-log so you dont know if that grenade finished the job or not. And with FF turned on, you would not even know that you messed up a friendly ! 5 FF kills and you get banned for 10 minutes.
^^

In short, I loved playing on Day of Defeat servers with these kind of options on. On the other hand, they turn off a lot of people.

Killcams that are not over-the-top might be a good thing for PS2 i.e. promote mobility active play instead of camping time. Plus most of us would be too busy clicking the respawn keys in order to move back in the fight asap and inflict some steamy revenge action while the potato is still hot.


Since when was accomplishing anything a goal for snipers?
Great post !!!
:D

[TheRagingGerbil]

Meh, don't see it as being an issue. Battles are going to be a target rich environment so there is going to be too much going on to worry about that one sniper.

Hell PS1 was just as easy to find that sniper too. Just respawn and find a spot to watch for the tracers. No biggy.

What I would rather see is a removal of the give away red tracer and use the kill cam. That way the only people that would know you are there is the one you just kill.

[Lonehunter]

I'm really surprised to see this in PS2. It is a very big game mechanic, it's not just about whether or not you want to watch a vid of a kill. PS is more strategic then any other FPS out there, and giving away someone's location, the people around them, and the general tactics they are using every time you get killed, changes the game drastically.

[Furret]

we'll see how it works in beta.

These six words should be at the bottom of EVERY post in this section of the forum.

And honestly I have no idea why everyone has a problem with killcams. As raymac suggested, this game will have a massive learning curve, and killcams are the best way to show you what you're doing wrong.

You think you're doing a good job of dodging till you watch someone kill you from their perspective and you're practically a sitting duck.

You think you've been leading your shots well until you see a veteran light you up without missing.


And really, what 'intel' is the enemy gaining from knowing where you WERE. Unless you've gone and pitched a tent, you shouldn't have a problem with the enemy knowing your location 30 seconds in the past.

And if you have pitched a tent, its your fault for being an easy target.

My only problem would be if it shows where the AMS you just spawned at is, or other tactical vehicles etc. that rely on stealth rather than mobility to stay alive.


As for cloakers, I've never liked your kind anyway :mad:

[Crator]

Have to see how it works in beta to really judge it though.

[BorisBlade]

Game genres evolve. They have to meet the desires of people used to playing todays games.

What else have they done? Infantry classes? Gee only BF has ever done that, right?

Solo killwhore vehicles. Wait.. PS had those too. But its just like BF because they will have a strong secondary position that compliments the vehicle, just like BF, right? Its fine though because just like BF there are only 2 or 3 per map.. Oh wait..

ZOMG! Realistic flight fizziks! STOLE IT FROM BATTLEFIELD!


Squad spawning? Stole it from battlefield? Or not.. PS already had the mechanic with the HARTs. They just eliminated the HART timer and streamlined the process.

Yep. May as well be a BF clone. I bet they even have a soldier walking towards the camera on the box using a shadowy orange pallet.

And almost every FPS now has killcams. And to me it suggests that they think people like kill cams and that it won't give away any useful intel. Theres a sniper on the ridge? No way!


Hart drops are not even remotely like squad spawning, thats like saying someone's mini cooper is the same as a ferrari, they both drive right? Solo killwhore vehicles, those were the exception in ps1 and frowned upon and were, aside from the reaver, inferior to the group ones. PS2 is turnin all vehicles into solo kill whore vehicles all of them. And no, modernizing a game does not mean you have to copy other games, that makes no sense. And kill cams are not modernizing, there is no modern aspect to that, its just a feature, a terrible feature and yeah it gives away alot of info, quite often in games like BF wehre you die dam near instantly, you dont know where they were shooting from, til the kill cam comes up and gives em away completely, it must be able to be toggled off, from both ends. I dont want to see em, nor do i want my enemy to get the full cam view of exactly how my squad is set up in an area with this free spy cam they call a kill cam. This isnt some boring cheap deathmatch, which is where kill cams belong.

They are focusing too much on death match solo type gameplay. PS is not that, and it really kills the atmosphere and overall experience of the game when they do this stuff. yeah you can have some teamwork in ps2 but its like a team of rambos. Thats not the same as real teamwork like ps1 encouraged.

[Captain B]

As others said, "see it in beta." But I will say that so long as it doesn't give you a bird's eye view of the area and all the tactical intel involved (who knows - maybe satellite imaging will be an in-game feature for squad leading anyway), I don't particularly care.

As others have continuously said, PS is not BF or CoD. You have SO many people running around. I get killed 'cause I'm too close to a tank that drove up beside me that got blown up when it parked it's massive ass next door. I get killed when a Sparrow wobbles up beside me on the ridge while I'm sniping at the bottom, and here come all the missiles!

I get killed if I snipe more than two or three people and not move - and that's if I'm lucky! Often I take one person out or even just a single shot in some environments and it isn't terribly hard to guess where I'm at.

I think with the new camo system it may be harder to see the glaring gold armor in the bushes as it was before, or bright purple in a desert. Not to mention snipers with headshots potentially one-shotting enemies? Imagine if it took 5 minutes to find these guys - no one would be outside on the battlements defending the base 'cause they just die!

"Let 'em have it. We'll push 'em back from the inside once those snipers arm up and push in."

[Bags]

Hart drops are not even remotely like squad spawning, thats like saying someone's mini cooper is the same as a ferrari, they both drive right?

Hart: Recall + possible timer: 30 seconds to four minutes
Squad spawning: 0 seconds to TIMER (they haven't stated how long the cooldown will be, and if it's per person or per squad leader)

I think they're going to be fairly comparable.

[kaffis]

I'm really surprised to see this in PS2. It is a very big game mechanic, it's not just about whether or not you want to watch a vid of a kill. PS is more strategic then any other FPS out there, and giving away someone's location, the people around them, and the general tactics they are using every time you get killed, changes the game drastically.
Meh. Giving away direction isn't that big a strategic disruptor. If you've engaged the enemy, it's too late for them knowing where you are to affect your strategy.

In other words, if you've taken the time to get into a good flanking position, that's not spoiled because, once you start shooting, they know you've flanked them. You're already taking advantage of that preparation, and they're already suffering for it.

I value kill-cams for their ability to teach new players valuable lessons that will reduce the learning curve and keep them playing instead of quitting because it's too hard and all they do is die.

My ideal kill-cam would be one that does a minor (1.5x?) zoom, from a vantage point slightly above the body, in the general direction the shot came from. Don't center directly on the killer (factor in maybe a 20-30 degree randomization variable), but point close enough that the player can spot you if you're not hidden well, just as he could have if he'd survived long enough to turn.

As CutterJohn says earlier, PlanetSide is not that sneaky a game. It's not Massively Splinter Cell Online. The vast majority of it involves guys in bright yellow, purple, or red shooting at each other from 30 foot long vehicles or from 40 feet away.

Furthermore, this stress on speeding up the pacing means the last thing they want to promote is camping killwhoring. I'm sorry guys, but if that's what you want, you have to expect to be fighting against the mechanics, just the same as guys who wanted slower TTKs having to deal with there being headshots and whatnot. As such, instead of finding the perfect hiding spot and picking off a lone straggler (so your tracer isn't seen) every 5 minutes, expect to shoot 2 guys, then pack up, retreat, and move to a new position.

[Captain B]

It's also on the Squad Leader - if he dies, no spawning (unless he upgrades his cert tree to allow for anyone in the squad to be a "spawn point"). And then there are timers depending on that level.

I still think a medic would be more important than a squad leader overall. Rather not have to wait and respawn than simply resing teammates.

[Furret]

Another thing I'm starting to notice is that we take each individual feature they announce for PS2 and compare it with every other feature from PS1. I think it's time to grow some balls and get over the fact that PS2 is going to be a whole new game. If you wanted a PS1 reskin, then you're out of luck.

Have faith that the development team aren't idiots (though we might not be so lucky with marketing D:) and assume that everything will work out in beta. And even if it doesnt, THAT'S WHAT BETA'S FOR. If killcams are gamebreaking which everyone seems to make them out to be, they'll be removed.

[Crator]

That, and flying GALs that troops and maxes can spawn at :)

[Xyntech]

Another thing I'm starting to notice is that we take each individual feature they announce for PS2 and compare it with every other feature from PS1. I think it's time to grow some balls and get over the fact that PS2 is going to be a whole new game. If you wanted a PS1 reskin, then you're out of luck.

Have faith that the development team aren't idiots (though we might not be so lucky with marketing D:) and assume that everything will work out in beta. And even if it doesnt, THAT'S WHAT BETA'S FOR. If killcams are gamebreaking which everyone seems to make them out to be, they'll be removed.

This.

We have survived exploitation of the third person camera in PS1, where as this would barely ever give anyone even the slightest advantage. I think we'll be alright.

[Captain1nsaneo]

Killcams break immersion. Period.

As for killcams being learning tools, firstly the player killed has to be able to use the weapon that killed them for the killcam to be most effective. In Planetside 2 that's not going to happen. Training shouldn't rely on a game mechanic, players should teach other players. I've tried to always have time for anyone who honestly asked a question and help them get a better feel for the game. Encourage your juniors and emphasis their finding what they find fun in the game. Hamma, the PSU staff, and PS Syndicate have done a lot for helping younger players but in the end it will come down to individual outfits and their members. I do not believe that learning is a valid reason for killcams.

Death cam as we have it now is a good middle ground between killcams and no killcams.

[Raymac]

As for killcams being learning tools, firstly the player killed has to be able to use the weapon that killed them for the killcam to be most effective.

This premise is totally incorrect. The best thing a killcam teaches you is what YOU did wrong to get killed, so you can learn from your mistake. Sure it can also teach you what the other player did right, but you get much more out of seeing yourself from the other players perspective.

And PSU and helpful Planetsiders like yourself will still be here to help newer players, but why should we force newer players to ask for help? People shouldn't need to take a class. Just give players the tools to learn on their own.

[Accuser]

I think we might all be working with different understandings of the words "killcam". It could be:
1. A replay of your death from the killer's perspective.
2. A view of your killer while you were dying from your perspective.
3. A 3rd person view of your killer -after- you died.
4. Something else?

I don't like 1 or 2, but they don't really give away much info. Number 3 gives away the killer's position but also what resources the enemy team has (or doesn't have) in that area. That's no good.

[cellinaire]

Hehe, I sometimes think some of you guys forget SOE is a profit seeking company(with Smedley as CEO).

Most of all. kill-cam will be (technically) relatively easy to undo/fix. So let's just see what this is all about in Beta, shall we?

[Talek Krell]

I think we might all be working with different understandings of the words "killcam". It could be:
1. A replay of your death from the killer's perspective.
2. A view of your killer while you were dying from your perspective.
3. A 3rd person view of your killer -after- you died.
4. Something else?

I don't like 1 or 2, but they don't really give away much info. Number 3 gives away the killer's position but also what resources the enemy team has (or doesn't have) in that area. That's no good.QFT.

1 would be relatively innocuous, and perhaps useful for newbies.
2 Would be fairly harmless, but wouldn't add much either.
3 is too much. Bad Company 2 uses that system (pretty sure that's the game I'm thinking of) and I can use it to find out who killed me, where they are, where they're going, and who else is in the area. That's bad enough for normal squads, but it would pretty much be the death of cloaking as a playstyle.

[DviddLeff]

While not game breaking, I do find kill cams annoying, and for tactical reasons; if someone has a great hidden firing position, you shouldn't be able to tell all your mates exactly where they are if you die without seeing them.

[Raymac]

I think we might all be working with different understandings of the words "killcam". It could be:
1. A replay of your death from the killer's perspective.
2. A view of your killer while you were dying from your perspective.
3. A 3rd person view of your killer -after- you died.
4. Something else?

I don't like 1 or 2, but they don't really give away much info. Number 3 gives away the killer's position but also what resources the enemy team has (or doesn't have) in that area. That's no good.

You're right. I was going under the assumption it would be like #1. I could certainly see how the other ones wouldn't really help a new player all that much.

IMHO a killcam should show you how you got killed, not just where exactly your killer was or what they look like. Not much point in that.

[IceyCold]

I personally HATE kill cams.

However, if it is a replay of your death from the killers Point of View, that actually would not be that bad. It would teach the victim a bit of what they did wrong and with the map being so big I imagine most of the time it would be very hard to find someone's location just based on the kill cam.

And I will give you one reason why it might be beneficial:

Hack detection.

If you get killed and then watch that kill through the killers view and see that they instantly popped to you in an obviously unrealistic manner or were watching you through a wall and popped out at just the right time; then it's pretty easy to know the person is doing something unusual.

I am willing to wait for beta and pass judgment then, but I don't really think we need them.

[Canaris]

Speaking as a sniper kill cams are the worse thing to add to a game, I do not want to see them added.

[Mirror]

Hopefully its an option that you can have on or off. I'd want a similar process to PS1 where you can still see whats happening so you can help your teammates and so you know when you are getting rez'd.

[Peacemaker]

This whole thing is totally NOT planetside. T-ray, Higby... I know you guys are trying to re-do planetside into a different game, but really fellas, Planetside 2 isn't going to BE planetside 2 if you don't carry some of the things from PS 1 over. Go play BFBC2, most of the good servers have kill cam DISABLED.

I know you guys are using popular ideas to make PS2 more popular, but we don't want Battlefield 4142 MMOFPS. We want Planetside. The game WILL be awsome if you hold to the roots of Planetside a little bit and market it. PS1 didn't work because of Marketing and Limited technology. By the time the technology came around the engine was too old to market it.

I have faith in you guys but PLEASE, stuff like kill cams screams at me that your just making BF/COD mmofps because these games rake in money. Trust that your product will rake in money with new ideas, not carbon copies. The masses may decide that they like different more than they like the next edition of Call of Duty. Infact if it comes too close to CoD or BF people may hate it because frankly a lot of gamers are getting sick of Modern Warfare "x".

[Gandhi]

I don't want to see killcams in PS2, that's all. And I'd also like to ask if any Planetside fans at SOE actually like the idea of killcams, or if it's something that's being put in because marketing wants to copy every single 'feature' from a relatively successful game because hey, it must mean everyone likes it.

All in all I'm excited for PS2, but some of the things I've heard are just disappointing. Especially when I remember some months ago the message from SOE was "We're making Planetside 2 for the fans of Planetside".

[Crator]

I would hope that SOE devs decision making is not based on what marketing thinks is good. These types of things should be left up to the devs, the people who have been doing it for a long time and know what they want throughout the entire system.

[Traak]

The best news is that such a thing exists. Know who will find it extremely useful, even if it doesn't survive beta? Or alpha?

The guys catching cheaters. How useful to be able to replay and see someone being hosed by a fully automatic Sweeper, multiple grenades at once from a Punisher, or whatever other cheats may have been utilized.

Being able to replay the death and see Mr. (cheat site).com zeroing in on and sniping a cloaker from a crevice on the opposite side of the planet will make catching cheaters that much more fun and proving it that much easier.

"Your account has been suspended. Attached is the video file of the last ten people you killed before being banned. Though SOE admires skilled players, the knife kills you were making on enemy tanks were considered outside the realm of sane reality"

Yeah, bring it. Though I don't want it to make it into the game, the fact they coded it can be highly useful.

[Mastachief]

This is kind of stupid.

This.


Kill cams are for COD kiddies

[Raymac]

This whole thing is totally NOT planetside.

I'd love to hear how you think a killcam is "NOT Planetside". Is it simply because some other game does it?
Is it that people are too candyass that they are scared the person they killed might be able to find out roughly where you were when you killed them?

You know whats "NOT Planetside"? Lobbies, non-persistance, no vehicles, no max units, no empire specific anything, less or more than 3 empires, non sci-fi...that kind of stuff.

Killcams are a good mechanic for helping new players quickly get over the huge learning curve that is an MMOFPS, and I didn't even think about it before, but yes it also is an excellent tool for players to self-regulate hack detection, which I would hope we'd all be in favor of.

[Zulthus]

New players can learn the game the right way without the crutch that is killcams. They did it in Planetside 1, and they can do it again in PSCOD:2. If you don't know how you got killed, you either weren't paying attention, you're really bad, or it was a skilled sniper. What kind of fun is being able to see exactly where the guy was who killed you? I'm not against killcams because it's "not planetside", but I am against them because they're stupid.

[Gandhi]

New players can learn the game the right way without the crutch that is killcams. They did it in Planetside 1, and they can do it again in PSCOD:2. If you don't know how you got killed, you either weren't paying attention, you're really bad, or it was a skilled sniper. What kind of fun is being able to see exactly where the guy was who killed you? I'm not against killcams because it's "not planetside", but I am against them because they're stupid.
Not to mention it's totally useless as a learning tool when you're in the middle of a 300vs300vs300 battle. "Oh look, that guy in the middle of the 50 other guys was lucky enough to get the last shot on me"

[Zulthus]

Not to mention it's totally useless as a learning tool when you're in the middle of a 300vs300vs300 battle. "Oh look, that guy in the middle of the 50 other guys was lucky enough to get the last shot on me"

Yeah, exactly. Good point. It'll probably be more like 1000v1000v1000 anyway :p

[Raymac]

New players can learn the game the right way without the crutch that is killcams. They did it in Planetside 1, and they can do it again in PSCOD:2. If you don't know how you got killed, you either weren't paying attention, you're really bad, or it was a skilled sniper. What kind of fun is being able to see exactly where the guy was who killed you? I'm not against killcams because it's "not planetside", but I am against them because they're stupid.

Crutch, tool, those are semantics, but killcams are a learning mechanic. It's not that you learn where the player was that killed you. It's you see what you were doing when he did. In my personal experience with killcams, there have been a ton of times where I thought I was behind cover, or thought I was dodging effectively, but then when I saw myself from the perspective of the player that killed me, I LEARNED that I was wrong and I adjusted my play accordingly, and I improved.

You know whats more "stupid" than killcams? Dying over and over again and not being able to figure out how to improve. You said it yourself, if "you're really bad" then this can help you get better.

(Of course we may be talking about 2 different styles of killcams like Accuser posted)

[Zulthus]

Crutch, tool, those are semantics, but killcams are a learning mechanic. It's not that you learn where the player was that killed you. It's you see what you were doing when he did. In my personal experience with killcams, there have been a ton of times where I thought I was behind cover, or thought I was dodging effectively, but then when I saw myself from the perspective of the player that killed me, I LEARNED that I was wrong and I adjusted my play accordingly, and I improved.

You know whats more "stupid" than killcams? Dying over and over again and not being able to figure out how to improve. You said it yourself, if "you're really bad" then this can help you get better.

(Of course we may be talking about 2 different styles of killcams like Accuser posted)

Instead of relying on a crutch to help you get better, adjust your playstyle to see what works. And as Ghandi said, killcams are next to worthless in such a massive game. Some guy gets that last shot on you indoors, so what? Yes, I suppose 5% of the time killcams could, in some odd way, be a "learning mechanic". But the other 95% of the time it will be used to see exactly where this person was when he killed you, not to fix your strategy. Sniping would be rendered useless, and quite possibly cloaking.

[Graywolves]

All cars are the same to me.



I don't care about the killcam for the most part. In the games it is featured people typically just skip past it.

What does bother me about it though is snipers and other covert styles of gameplay. Sometimes a sniper can be well hidden, you know they're somewhere within a 40degree cone but that's still alot of ground to cover. With killcam you just know exactly where they are, which may also reveal other information (they're surroundings, spawns/turrets/vehicles/etc)


For Planetside I think killcam is just a pointless feature that causes more problems than...well it doesn't provide anything so it just causes problems...

Maybe they could just show a picture of their character and their loadout?

[Raymac]

Instead of relying on a crutch to help you get better, adjust your playstyle to see what works. And as Ghandi said, killcams are next to worthless in such a massive game. Some guy gets that last shot on you indoors, so what? Yes, I suppose 5% of the time killcams could, in some odd way, be a "learning mechanic". But the other 95% of the time it will be used to see exactly where this person was when he killed you, not to fix your strategy. Sniping would be rendered useless, and quite possibly cloaking.

Adjust your playstyle how, dude? If you don't know what you do wrong, then you don't know what to adjust. The same is true with any mistake you make in anything, in video games or in real life.

And the scale of the combat has absolutely no bearing at all on how helpful a killcam would be. You'd still see where YOU were and what YOU were doing from the perspective of the player that killed you.

In a game like Planetside there are sooo many ways to die, so sometimes you'll see that you just were unlucky and got hit by a random tank shell. OK bad luck and nothing I could do about it so let me keep doing my thing. The point is, you'll get to learn which it is.

And don't even try to start saying sniping would be rendered useless because that's total BS. If that was the case, you'd never see snipers in COD, and we all know nothing could be further from the truth. As for cloakers, same thing. In PS1 if you stay in the same close-quarters spot, that last guy you killed will come back with Darklight and smoke you. So neither of those points hold any water.

[Blue]

I wouldn't mind it as much if there was a skill/talent/trait/perk/whatever to eliminate kill cam on your character. So if you are specializing in covert operataions which rely HEAVILY on players not knowing where you are, you can sneak through taking people out without them knowing exactly howmany of you there are, which gun you have, which angle you came from etc.

[Helwyr]

I'm against kill cams for PS2, how much against would depend on the details of how the kill cam would work.

The only good reason I've read here for having Kill Cams in the first place is for catching cheaters, but such info doesn't need to be shown to players, just accessible to GMs/DEVs.

As to new players, everyone who ever played a FPS was a newbie once. So why all of sudden do newbies require Kill Cams as a 'learning aid' now? Are new players today less capable than players from a decade ago?

"Other FPS have kill cams." So, what? This isn't other games, it's Planetside. As an MMOFPS it isn't even in the same category of games that I've seen listed here as having Kill Cams.

Granted the devil is in the details, but a kill cam is another form of intel on your opponents and perhaps some don't care but as others have pointed out it's also immersion breaking. IMO none of the pros for Kill Cams outweighs the potential for damage in terms of hurting the tactical and immersive side of the game.

[Aractain]

If they use the BF style kill cam, I would say its only to show how awesome the paintwork on the guy's armour was so it encourages you to buy something cooler from the cashshop.

If its the "heres how you died" version that would be better for gameplay (mainly of the new players not all you UberSkillzVets).

I am okay with killcam (but not okay with third person camera).

[Furret]

I seriously don't know what the hell kind of 'intel' you think people are going to get from watching what's already happened. People are complaining that the faster TTK will encourage camping. Well if you're camping, then you'll get found in the killcams, easy fix. If you're not camping, then dammit it doesn't matter where you were 30 seconds ago.

Snipers are a slightly different issue.
For this fix i refer you to what someone else posted:

I wouldn't mind it as much if there was a skill/talent/trait/perk/whatever to eliminate kill cam on your character. So if you are specializing in covert operations which rely HEAVILY on players not knowing where you are, you can sneak through taking people out without them knowing exactly how many of you there are, which gun you have, which angle you came from etc.

All they need to know is that Furret killed 'em with a sniper rifle, and they can get that from the killfeed.


Even still, we can't pass too many judgments on how difficult it will be to find a sniper. Preferably, the sniper should be able to get off 3-5 shots before everyone with eyes knows where you're shooting from, from tracers alone. That amount of time isn't all that much different from death, wait 5 secs for killcam to show, wait five secs to figure out snipers location in killcam, wait 5 secs to tell squaddies where the sniper is, wait ~30 secs for them to ACTUALLY DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT.


I will agree with everyone, killcams would be very hard to balance in PS1. BUT THIS ISN'T PS1.

This is a completely new game, with completely new mechanics. Let's just calm down and see how it turns out.

[Raymac]

If they use the BF style kill cam, I would say its only to show how awesome the paintwork on the guy's armour was so it encourages you to buy something cooler from the cashshop.

If its the "heres how you died" version that would be better for gameplay (mainly of the new players not all you UberSkillzVets).

I am okay with killcam (but not okay with third person camera).

As vocal as I've been for it, I actually agree with you here. I'd have to say I'm not a huge fan of a 3rd person view killcam whether it be replay or live.

As for intel, I think you can get just as much if not more intel from the death cam in PS1 now. For example, I can run my max into a gen-hold, die, and have a 360 degree view of who is in there, how many max units, and where exactly they are. THEN keep that view for a few minutes being able to feed intel the whole time.

So I like the killcam as a learning tool more than anything. I mean even vets get those "wtf just happened" deaths.

[razor851]

This shit gets worse and worse.

[Bags]

This shit gets worse and worse.

Thank you for contributing to the discussion.

[Gandhi]

I wouldn't mind it as much if there was a skill/talent/trait/perk/whatever to eliminate kill cam on your character.
I think having to obtain some skill or cert to make up for what amounts to broken game mechanics in that situation is pretty lousy. It's along the same lines as allowing bunny hopping because headshots are too easy. Instead of addressing the problem they'd just be trying to cover it up with some new must have "feature".

[Raymac]

Thank you for contributing to the discussion.

Yeah dude. Just ignore that troll. He just comes into a thread, says "PS2 will suck" and leaves. At least he just sticks to 1 liners.

[Higby]

What do you guys think? I'm not so hot on this idea..

Once we get to beta if we think it sucks we'll remove it.

[IceyCold]

Once we get to beta if we think it sucks we'll remove it.

Glad to know you guys are open to revising plans if players don't like them. I must ask though Higby if you could answer real fast:

What kind of kill cam is it exactly that is in the plan? Is it a replay of your death or is it a view of your killer after you die? And why did you guys decide to consider it for the game?

If you could answer those two questions we could get a better founding for our discussion here.

[basti]

Once we get to beta if we think it sucks we'll remove it.


If it sucks depens alot on the situation and the the person itself. It might be devestating for cloakers and snipers, but for everyone else it wouldnt affect the game much. But to speak for myself, i dont like to get zoomed to the guy who killed me. It would be by far enough to know who killed me and what weapon he used, means the same way planetside did it. Some additional info like what class he is in etc may be cool, but seeing right where he is/was, and propably even a short demo of the few secs before he killed me in his First person view sucks, especialy if you are forced to see it every damn time. It happens rarley that you got killed without knowing how, the obvious death are just painful to watch again. ;)

[Bruttal]

Ive read alot of these aurgments, but i still think id like the kill cam the only thing i see it hurting would be snipers and posabily cloakers. other then that you pretty much see people who kill you in planetside because you have the time to react to where your being shot from

[Wahooo]

Kill cams are a horrid idea, and i've always hated them. Yeah as said, cloaking and sniping would be punished severely. DO NOT WANT.

[Captain B]

I dunno'...

With so many people to kill, when you respawn and get back in the fight, are you really gonna' go stomping around the woods looking for that cloaker that killed you or climbing the ridge to flank that sniper that killed you? Assuming they're even still ALIVE by the time you get back out there? And, in the mean time, are you going to forgo shooting and maiming and blowing up all the infantry, tanks and Reavers about in your singular quest of revenge?

Personally, I wouldn't care much. It takes all of 30 minutes to an hour of hard fighting to find all the defensive and offensive positions in an area. After that it isn't hard to speculate, and the best cloakers and snipers stay mobile. Everyone else is staying mobile out of necessity (heavy infantry, vehicles on the front line, aircraft, and so on).

[Wahooo]

So what is the benefit to the game with kill cams? Crutch learn where the hard way where firing lanes are and when you weren't aware?

[Xyntech]

The kill cam should be able to be turned off. If someone doesn't like it, don't use it. It really won't affect gameplay though, so I have no problem with it's inclusion.

Sometimes I like a kill cam, on those rare occasions where the kill spam isn't enough. "WTF? A tank killed me? There were no tanks in the area... Ooooh, it was a random stray shot." That sort of shit. It's just kinda nice to know sometimes.

[FastAndFree]

Sometimes it's not that easy to tell where exactly AA is shooting from
In addition, aircav is too mobile to be hampered by it.

I guess I like this idea :rolleyes:

[Desoxy]

I have the feeling many of you underestimate the scope of Planetside compared to CoD or even Battlefield. As Captain B pointed out: In the time it takes you to spawn and get back to the place you were killed at, your opponent will be long gone or already killed. Yes, you can tell your squad mates via voice chat who killed you from where, but if they are experienced players they noticed exactly what got killed and react accordingly.

I do like the "This is how you got killed"-recap, tbh. More often than not you find out that the - obviously cheating - opponent with his overpowered weapon right in front of you was not actually what killed you. You can learn from your mistakes easier, as was already stated.

And once you know the game you turn them off yourself in order to spawn a few seconds earlier - at least in my experience.

Just showing your killer for the next 5 seconds has this learning effect to far lesser extent and serves no practical purpose besides smoking out campnests, though. And this actually could give your squadmates valuable intel (is the enemy retreating or not etc.).

[Helwyr]

The kill cam should be able to be turned off. If someone doesn't like it, don't use it. It really won't affect gameplay though, so I have no problem with it's inclusion.


If players can turn it off in that they will neither see or be seen by others via kill cam, an option to completely disable the feature by individual players, I'm pretty sure all the objections here including my own will vanish.

[Crator]

Kill cams are a horrid idea, and i've always hated them. Yeah as said, cloaking and sniping would be punished severely. DO NOT WANT.

The kill cam should be able to be turned off. If someone doesn't like it, don't use it. It really won't affect gameplay though, so I have no problem with it's inclusion.

Sometimes I like a kill cam, on those rare occasions where the kill spam isn't enough. "WTF? A tank killed me? There were no tanks in the area... Ooooh, it was a random stray shot." That sort of shit. It's just kinda nice to know sometimes.

From previous page on the thread.

Once we get to beta if we think it sucks we'll remove it.

[Hamma]

I know someone here said it's not "PlanetSide" which I will somewhat agree with.

But the reason I don't think it is, is because it's an MMO. It's not a quick 20 minute fast map in a game like BF or COD. There is another level to it completely. Since the maps are so big spending time getting to an awesome hiding spot is entirely possible, having someone see where you are right off the bat sets you back several minutes of hoofing it again.

I'll be curious to see the implementation before the final judge.

Once we get to beta if we think it sucks we'll remove it.

Cool to hear! :D

[Wahooo]

Sometimes it's not that easy to tell where exactly AA is shooting from
In addition, aircav is too mobile to be hampered by it.

I guess I like this idea :rolleyes:

Exactly it is a direct nerf to some classes/roles and a non-factor to others.
I'm not worried (much) about the guy I just killed coming to find me as much as his 100% knowledge of EXACTLY where I was/am he can rely on voice coms to a bunch of other people who may have otherwise been good targets.

Guy I killed - "V-W-S"
Squad mate (and another potential victim) "Where"
1st guy "Not sure, I think toward the North"

versus

Guy I just killed "Crap there is a Sniper on that hill to the north-east between the trees with a perfect view of the north wall everyone look out, somebody get some air to take him out."

The other thing about seeing it wasn't some guy you think was hacking but oh... stray bullet is kinda funny, because in other threads not PS related i've seen this discussed it is always brought up as an ability to find cheaters/aimbotters, which I also find a tired argument as well. Stop thinking every time you die it was a hacker. Aim botters are obvious enough and what good is kill cam when you have no ability to take action other than some form of /report or /appeal.

What it adds to the game is a direct nerf to classes and roles that rely on being able to hide or stay hidden or try and be sneaky... V-V-G :rant:

[Raymac]

I know someone here said it's not "PlanetSide" which I will somewhat agree with.

But the reason I don't think it is, is because it's an MMO. It's not a quick 20 minute fast map in a game like BF or COD. There is another level to it completely. Since the maps are so big spending time getting to an awesome hiding spot is entirely possible, having someone see where you are right off the bat sets you back several minutes of hoofing it again.

I'll be curious to see the implementation before the final judge.


I still don't see how thats "not Planetside". This is a little frustrating for me, because it's not that I badly want this feature. I just don't like how people are immediately dismissing it out of hand just because another game does it, or for no reason what-so-ever. I don't have a problem with people not liking something, but at least weigh the pros and cons. If it doesn't make it into the game at launch, you won't see me shed a single tear, but I'm not going to ignore the benefits.

I agree that in a game like Planetside with maps that are as vast as they are, you probably won't learn as much as you would on a small COD arena map. At the same time, when you are new to the game (which most of the players will be) and you die, the first thing that comes to your mind is "How the hell did that just happen?" A killcam answers that question and can take the sting out of a 1:10 K/D ratio.

[Helwyr]

Raymac for someone who doesn't really care if this feature makes release or not you sure have spent a great deal of time posting defending it. If true it doesn't seem a very efficient way to spend your time on these forums.

Most of us are not dismissing it out of hand, the very post above yours by Wahoo gives very clear reasons why a good few of us are concerned by the possible inclusion of this feature. I'm not sold on your idea that a kill cam is a needed or even wanted learning tool either, nor does it seem are many others.

So, with what information we have, we have weighed the possible pros and cons, and found the likely cons far outweighing any likely benefits of kill cams in
PS2.

[cellinaire]

I dunno'...

With so many people to kill, when you respawn and get back in the fight, are you really gonna' go stomping around the woods looking for that cloaker that killed you or climbing the ridge to flank that sniper that killed you? Assuming they're even still ALIVE by the time you get back out there? And, in the mean time, are you going to forgo shooting and maiming and blowing up all the infantry, tanks and Reavers about in your singular quest of revenge?

Personally, I wouldn't care much. It takes all of 30 minutes to an hour of hard fighting to find all the defensive and offensive positions in an area. After that it isn't hard to speculate, and the best cloakers and snipers stay mobile. Everyone else is staying mobile out of necessity (heavy infantry, vehicles on the front line, aircraft, and so on).

^_^b

and my idea : after your character dies, camera just gives direction of the killer over your dead body for first few seconds and start rotating slowly like PS1's way.

[dsi]

The only type of kill information I approve of is general direction of killer (think RO2 style kill cam), how much damage he (and any assistants) did to you and with what gun, how much damage you did to him and others (if applicable), the range between you two and your life time.

Of course that should probably be output to a console of some sort.

[Xyntech]

Right now, snipers have tracers. That makes it pretty easy to spot them if you or anybody else is looking in the right direction. I am gonna assume for the time being that PS2 snipers also have tracers, until we have info to the contrary.

So, if I happen to be looking in the right direction, I could already tell my team where the sniper is. Hell, I may not even die to get that information. I may even have a Bolt Driver of my own and finish him off myself.

So essentially, a sniper now has OSOK with a successful headshot and another player can only gain a little extra intel on their location for free if they die. That already guarantees that the sniper got at least one kill and they will still have some time before the dead player or any of their team mates have a chance to rally and respond. All it means is that a sniper has less of a free pass to camp the same spot forever.

How about AA? Another good role where staying hidden is a good strategy. Well AA often operates from more defended and/or remote positions, so if their position is prematurely compromised, it will take a long time for any infantry to get there, assuming that the area isn't too heavily defended to even allow infantry access. So all that's available to quickly respond to the AA are vehicles. Aircraft usually aren't the best choice for this, since they should generally die pretty quick head to head with an AA enemy. All that leaves are land vehicles, which may be subject to the same difficulty getting past defences as the infantry and, depending on what type of AA it is, may not be able to even find a clear line of site to them.

Edit: I forgot about hot dropping on an AI position, but I doubt an armor light enough to fly an aircraft will be able to pack the strongest anti vehicle/anti max weaponry, so unless the AA threat is just some lone infantryman... I don't see that being a target worth wasting all of that time and effort on though. They usually don't get most of the kills on aircraft in PS1 anyways, although that may change in PS2.

There aren't a lot of other roles where staying hidden is that critical a game mechanic. The only other one I'm thinking off the top of my head is Infiltrator and I hope nobody is suggesting that they will be hurt by it. As long as the Infiltrator knows about the mechanic (duh), they could just move 20 feet away probably be able to hide in plain sight. It's not like the dead player or his team mates will be able to respond any more quickly if the victim tells them where the infiltrator was versus him just telling them generally that he was killed by an infiltrator.

I would find some fun in a kill cam, but I could take it or leave it. If the fanbase disapproves strongly enough and/or the devs decide to scrap it, no harm done, but I really can't see it hurting the game.

If players can turn it off in that they will neither see or be seen by others via kill cam, an option to completely disable the feature by individual players, I'm pretty sure all the objections here including my own will vanish.

This is actually a pretty cool idea. It would be a fairly awesome way to appease everyone. If you felt that a kill cam would detract from your enjoyment and/or you thought an enemy seeing you on kill cam would compromise you in ANY way, you could disable it. Naturally, when you had it disabled, nobody could see your kill cam, but you couldn't gain any advantage by seeing theirs even if they allow it (shouldn't be a problem considering, as I have argued, that there will probably be no real advantage, but we are also talking about perception here). Players who love kill cams, enjoy them sometimes or don't really care one way or another could leave them on and see each others kill cams when one person with it active killed another.

I still say that being able to toggle it off only on the dead players side would be a pretty good solution considering it would mostly be an aesthetic option at that point, but I don't see why Helwyr's suggestion wouldn't be doable and a perfect compromise.

[Raymac]

Raymac for someone who doesn't really care if this feature makes release or not you sure have spent a great deal of time posting defending it. If true it doesn't seem a very efficient way to spend your time on these forums.

Most of us are not dismissing it out of hand, the very post above yours by Wahoo gives very clear reasons why a good few of us are concerned by the possible inclusion of this feature. I'm not sold on your idea that a kill cam is a needed or even wanted learning tool either, nor does it seem are many others.

So, with what information we have, we have weighed the possible pros and cons, and found the likely cons far outweighing any likely benefits of kill cams in
PS2.

I thought it would be painfully obvious by now that I'm a loser with no life. I'm not being sarcastic at all either. You're right. I am spending a fair amount of time and effort debating something that really isn't all that important. I guess I just felt a desire to do it since so many people were dismissing the idea out of hand. If you think I'm making that up, you may want to go back and look at the first few pages of this thread. It was essentially "No, because it's in COD." That was it.

You're also right. Wahoo and others have made some very valid points against it. I don't mean to conclude that everybody needs to write an essay just to post, but if the only argument against a new feature is "because it's in BF", well thats not good enough for me.

I guess I'm just getting tired of every single new feature getting shot down by PS vets just because it's new or there is something comparable in a different game. The very day the game was announced, the forums were blowing up with "classes? no way!" ( http://www.planetside-universe.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36381 ) or "no more sancs? thats dumb" ( http://www.planetside-universe.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36442 )

I guess I shouldn't be surprised at the skepticism and resistance to change because it's natural especially with a game that we're so fond of, so I just need to do a better job of dealing with it.

Kinda realizing this whole post is basically off-topic so I'll cut myself off here. Sorry.

[Zulthus]

The whole reason us "vets" shoot down ideas is because we've been around the block a few times. We've seen some stuff, man. Killcams, in some opinions, are stupid. All they do in my view is show your position. In yours they teach you right from wrong. That's fine. Solo MBT's. They promote killwhoring, and steer away from teamwork. Why get a gunner if you can just gun the main cannon yourself? I can go on, but I think that makes my point as clear as mud.

[Straws]

Ah, and there was me thinking that 'Kill Cam' meant the option of review my death. If it does go the way of being shown who my killer was, then yeah, it will be exceptionally flawed.

[Talek Krell]

Yeah, I wish they'd tell us what sort of kill cam they mean. That assumes they've decided of course. They may be reviewing their options.

[LostSoul]

Playing PS1 y'day i'd love a killcam in there, died in some dodgy ways :(

[Pennybags]

Remember how in BF:BC2 you'd spend time finding a really great spot, and after your first kill, they'd spawn back 20 seconds later and drop mortars right on top of you? That was hilarious.

[razor851]

Yeah dude. Just ignore that troll. He just comes into a thread, says "PS2 will suck" and leaves. At least he just sticks to 1 liners.
I'm a realist.

[Tigersmith]

Before I over react about this. I need to see it..

[akiadan]

Well playing battlefield, to put a lot of your minds to rest, you could still be pretty sneaky even with the killcams they have. It will probably cut down on the cloaker door camping with a knife (DAMMIT!) but other then that cloakers will have to resort to ps1 tactics, dont stay in the same spot or get a spam nade to tha face. Snipers will be about the same, youll just have to move a few meters to keep them off you for the most part. With the size of the maps who knows how this will go. I'm a little skittish on this but they put them in for a reason, might not even show the killers location may just be gun information and class ect. My 1 cent

[Hamma]

I still don't see how thats "not Planetside".
Well I stated why I didn't think it fits, rather than just saying "not PlanetSide" in my post. :p


I just don't think it first a persistent MMO to have this feature. It's not your typical round after round public server in an FPS it's a persistent massive world where getting location is far more important and takes far longer. I just don't think its a good fit for that reason.

[Graywolves]

Before I over react about this. I need to see it..


OVERREACT NOW!

[MasterChief096]

Killcams in PS2 don't belong.

[Trolltaxi]

A bit late to participate in the debate, but maybe no one has mentioned yet...

With PS1 killcam (showing you fallen, camera slowly turning around you) you were still able to forward intel to your group on chat or on TS/Vent. Actually, this could pretty much srcew up a genhold or a CC-defense. If the dev team focuses on denying this option it is fine by me.

Killcam will be a problem for snipers and maybe for cloakers though... I don't know how to solve it.

What would you like to see when you are laying on the floor dead? Maybe your last 5-20 seconds from 3rd person (and you cannot change the angle, so you can't look back to check where you were fired at from)... Would that work?

[Mastachief]

kill cam will ruin many play style there really is no point in them, trying to defend any position will but compromised if people you kill then know exactly where you are.

Its just another idea cloned from COD/BF, Having just played a few hours of BF3 there alot of features in that that planetside 2 seems to be borrowing which i just dont see belonging in a persistent battle field mmo game.

Those saying that vets are shooting down alot of new ideas i say this to, having played almost every single AAA fps game that has been released since 1998 i personally and i suspect alot of the 8 year vets have seen these features and stuck with planetside over them all for the unique gameplay planetside delivered. This uniqueness gets watered down with each idea that is cloned from the kiddie FPS games.

My outfit are generally spec op we actively avoid the herd and in some case work against it to our own and then eventually the empires gain. We rely alot of stealth and thinking our way into to bases and defences very successfully and usually being significantly out numbered. Now what happens when you boomer a dude and he can watch where you were the next time he comes he and his 3 buddies grenade your ass. There are many such examples it is in my eyes 10x worse than 3rd person exploiting. Cloakers and snipers would suffer badly.

I will reserve final judgement for beta, but if my fears on some of these features make the release in the form i have in my head i doubt i will be making use of the game.

[SuperMorto]

The person or persons who created PS were clear about their goals, bring people to war, and let them only fight amongst them selves and make it feel like they are fighting a war, name me one thing in PS that doesn't make you feel like your fighting a war? ( minus spawning)

Now how many kill cams do you see in Afghanistan? Well ones that will show you from the little cunts view not your own?

Its a bad move I say.

Stay true to war, and let there be war!

Morto.

[Canaris]

I dunno'...

With so many people to kill, when you respawn and get back in the fight, are you really gonna' go stomping around the woods looking for that cloaker that killed you or climbing the ridge to flank that sniper that killed you? Assuming they're even still ALIVE by the time you get back out there? And, in the mean time, are you going to forgo shooting and maiming and blowing up all the infantry, tanks and Reavers about in your singular quest of revenge?

Personally, I wouldn't care much. It takes all of 30 minutes to an hour of hard fighting to find all the defensive and offensive positions in an area. After that it isn't hard to speculate, and the best cloakers and snipers stay mobile. Everyone else is staying mobile out of necessity (heavy infantry, vehicles on the front line, aircraft, and so on).

Lots of people play together and use VOIP, also it will be built into the game, Ghosting out someone position over it will be a bigger problem than the respawner coming back for vengence.

A dead cam would be fine that just floats above your corpse like we have already in PS1, this just allows you to see a medic coming to ress you without giving away to much info.

[Bruttal]

what i really dont understand is why on earth bitch about a feture you havent even seen in ps2 yet i mean they could have different style of kill cams for all you know. or they could be excactly the same but the game play is so different that it wont mater.....

i say http://cache.ohinternet.com/images/thumb/d/d2/STFU2.jpg/120px-STFU2.jpg and let them keep doing what there good at

[Lunarchild]

For me I'd say it completely depends on what this killcam actually shows.

1. CoD style: Last few moments from their view. This option actually allows new players to pick up skills from other players. It allows seasoned players to doublecheck that the kill was in fact legal. It may give away location information, HOWEVER: since it only shows what you see, it only gives people a gist of where you are!

2. Battlefield 3 style: Show the killer from front-facing camera. This really is just to give away the location of the player, and only in rare cases is the information actuable (sp?). Don't much care for this one personally.

3. Completely different options are possible as well. All with their own pros and cons.

I don't mind a kill-cam. If you are afraid people will notice your location too much, you could even limit it to new players (BR limit or somesuch). Regardless the game should have a bit better scene than just seeing yourself being dead on the floor IMHO.

[Hessy17]

I don't care to much for kill cams, but to me it depends on some factors in the game. Like pace of the game mostly, but there was a game where the kill cam just simply paned from your corpse in the general direction of the killer... no zoom or anything, just so it gave you a direction ( I don't remember what game)

[Bags]

Kill cams in BF3 feel next to useless so I don't see what the big deal is?

[Captain B]

To the people who say "kill cams" aren't PlanetSide:

You what else isn't "PlanetSide"? Lots and lots of players. If we want lots and lots of players, these things are gonna' come in. Most of us play PS because we like knowing that while we may not be the best FPSers, we still get shit did. But that isn't the bulk of FPS players. They want the kill cams, the K/D and ladder boasting, etc. I don't know about you, but if I see someone say they have a 2:1 K/D ratio or better, my first impression is "Stop fuckin' around, drop your damn nuts already, and push on that goddamn base!"

That's a mighty big step for most FPSers.

Overreact if you wish, but I pose a CHALLENGE to those reading:

Who among you have been killed, by a sniper perhaps, and determine that you will kill them - gathering your bolt driver or HSR - and climbing the stairwell to the wall, only to be INSTANTLY DESTROYED by ANYTHING ELSE - liberator, Vanguard, orbital strike - that is on the field instead before you can enact vengeance?

Who among you, I ask, has snuck into the perfect position, and before your very eyes and ears do the flashing lights and the BRRRRRRZEEROOMBOOOOOMPRRKHSCH!!! sound of an orbital decimate your hated foe before you are able to exact revenge? ... *Wipes spit off of monitor*

WHO AMONG YOU, I SAY! And of those, who really gives a damn? I mean srsly. It's PlanetSide. If you don't like dying after getting a few kills in (maybe), either get a new game or lh2p (in this case, death is inevitable - make your life count).

[Graywolves]

Kill cam serves no point and are more annoying than anything. Just get me back into the fight or let me do my own thing with the downtime.

No one who's played Cod for more than a couple days even watches killcams.

[NapalmEnima]

If they really want it in, and realize that some folks really DON'T want it, they might have "kill cam" and "no cam" servers. Ditto with FF for that matter.

Beginner servers: Kill cams & no FF
Advanced servers: No cams & FF.

Could work.

[TacosWLove]

The only thing I dont like about them is they can give away your position, to me its the same issue as 3rd person where it allows you to see perspectives you normally wouldn't IRL. IMO they should be left out, but im by no means no going to play if they include them

[Trolltaxi]

If they really want it in, and realize that some folks really DON'T want it, they might have "kill cam" and "no cam" servers. Ditto with FF for that matter.

Beginner servers: Kill cams & no FF
Advanced servers: No cams & FF.

Could work.

Don't even mention FF off! Please!

[Levente]

how about making a poll?

[Gandhi]

To the people who say "kill cams" aren't PlanetSide:

There's a long list of changes that "aren't Planetside" but are accepted by almost everyone as being necessary. Things like iron sights, sprinting, classes, offline training, a F2P model, lack of scavenging, lack of vehicle hacking, lower TTK, etc. I don't think it's unreasonable to draw the line at a few choice things and say "This isn't Planetside, and we're not putting it in Planetside. If you want it, go play a different game".

I really don't think Planetside needs to be turned into a totally generic shooter just to get players. With the right marketing the F2P model and massive scale should be enough. It's an FPS man, they practically sell themselves these days.

[Raymac]

There's a long list of changes that "aren't Planetside" but are accepted by almost everyone as being necessary. Things like iron sights, sprinting, classes, offline training, a F2P model, lack of scavenging, lack of vehicle hacking, lower TTK, etc.

I had to laugh, because there are heated debates on the forum here about each one of those things you mentioned with the exception of iron sights and sprinting. :lol:

That's kinda why in the end, I know they aren't going to please all the fans, but if they keep the fundamental Planetside principles in place and don't add anything game-breaking, we'll learn to deal with the little things we may not like.

[Xyntech]

There's a long list of changes that "aren't Planetside" but are accepted by almost everyone as being necessary. Things like iron sights, sprinting, classes, offline training, a F2P model, lack of scavenging, lack of vehicle hacking, lower TTK, etc. I don't think it's unreasonable to draw the line at a few choice things and say "This isn't Planetside, and we're not putting it in Planetside. If you want it, go play a different game".

I really don't think Planetside needs to be turned into a totally generic shooter just to get players. With the right marketing the F2P model and massive scale should be enough. It's an FPS man, they practically sell themselves these days.

I guess by the same token I just don't see kill cams as that big a deal, or inherently NOT Planetside. I don't think it will be a selling point for the game ("Play Planetside 2! Now featuring KILL CAMS!"), but I think the devs intend it as just a little bit of extra modern FPS fluff.

My vote is still for Helwyr's idea of being able to turn the kill cam off so that you don't see any kill cams and nobody sees you in theirs.

[Tapman]

http://i.imgur.com/NSwQS.jpg

Thanks Reddit! It could be good to help identify hackers but death is part of the tactical situation in Planetside. In war, if someone gets shot they have to communicate where from if possible and if not then their teammates have to deal with that situation. The floating cam from PS1 was fine, maybe make that more manipulable but don't make me watch someone kill me a second time, or else I end up looking like that guy above.

[Crator]

^^^ LOL, that hilarious. And I feel the same way. Would be nice if SOE devs could let us know the definition of a kill cam in PS2.

[Graywolves]

Kill Cams are a forced T-bad

[Gandhi]

I had to laugh, because there are heated debates on the forum here about each one of those things you mentioned with the exception of iron sights and sprinting.
I dunno, the only really heated debates I've seen were about OSOK weapons and maybe the faster TTK. As for the rest, it's generally a couple people who disagree with each one which is pretty normal.

Anyway, the point was we shouldn't flat out accept every change just because Planetside 2 has to do some things differently. Some changes are just bad for gameplay, or just plain stupid, and those changes should at least be debated to death before the game hits the shelves, if not removed completely.

Also wasn't really talking about kill cams in particular. I don't think they're a big deal, I'd just rather not see them in PS2.

[Raymac]

I dunno, the only really heated debates I've seen were about OSOK weapons and maybe the faster TTK. As for the rest, it's generally a couple people who disagree with each one which is pretty normal.

Anyway, the point was we shouldn't flat out accept every change just because Planetside 2 has to do some things differently. Some changes are just bad for gameplay, or just plain stupid, and those changes should at least be debated to death before the game hits the shelves, if not removed completely.

Also wasn't really talking about kill cams in particular. I don't think they're a big deal, I'd just rather not see them in PS2.

Yeah, I guess you are right. The debates had varying degrees of heat. You're also right that we shouldn't just blindly accept or refuse certain features. In fact, I think the devs are relying on us to a certain extent as a sounding board for certain ideas. Of course they are the ones making the decisions, but they seem genuinely interested in what we think, and that by itself is pretty awesome.

[Hamma]

Couple comments from Higby over on Reddit:

I can think of about a dozen unique kill cam mechanics that aren't in any other modern shooter, ways to tie it into progression, etc. What if you needed a "Flash before your eyes" implant to enable it? What if you could have an implant that made kill cams not show up when you kill someone? What if you have to opt in via a taunt key after a kill to get a kill cam to show up for your enemy player? What if it put everything into a dark VR room and just showed the last shot that killed you and other nearby bullet trajectories while the camera rotates around slowly in bullettime for a couple seconds? What if it did it with multiple camera angles like an instant replay for a football game? What if it just showed a 3d preview of the enemy player, their customizations and their stats on a UI screen completely out of the world?

Just because we have kill cams and other games do as well doesn't mean we're doing exactly what other games do, there is more than one way to skin a cat.

I don't take it harshly at all, it's appreciated... Dissenting feedback is typically the best kind. If we have kill cams in the final product they will fit with the overall game mechanics and systems and not feel like a tacked on "me too" feature.

More than just having some random bulletpoint we consider kill cams to be an educational tool for new players, "oh, i guess I wasn't in cover over there after all", "oh, hiding in that corner seems like a good idea, i want to try that!". Sure, people learn that stuff on their own, but kill cams help smooth out the learning curve slightly. If the intel is valuable enough to get up in arms about it might be valuable enough to "waste an implant" on. They're not a feature that advanced players really "need", that's the purpose behind putting a taunt feature in, to get advanced players to feel like using it. Being able to get a "GET DEAD TR SCRUB!" taunt play after you kill someone if you hit a button seems fun to me, and it might be worth potentially giving up my position to do if i really feel cocky.

Entire exchange here (http://www.reddit.com/r/Planetside/comments/kyvwo/kill_cams_really/).

[Wahooo]

I don't take it harshly at all, it's appreciated... Dissenting feedback is typically the best kind. If we have kill cams in the final product they will fit with the overall game mechanics and systems and not feel like a tacked on "me too" feature.

It is things like this that will keep me excited and limit my skepticism about the game.

I still don't want kill cams of anykind or quick knives of any kind, i'm not to warm on OSOK headshots most of the other changes i'm mostly ok with.;)

[Crator]

Nice find Hamma. Some good info/comments there. I suppose Higby is replying to Reddit more because there are more non-PS people there to talk to?

[Hamma]

Seems pretty even, he answers questions here and there about the same I think

[Higby]

Seems pretty even, he answers questions here and there about the same I think

You always find everything I say everywhere and post it here you diligent bloodhound you.

[Lonehunter]

You always find everything I say everywhere and post it here you diligent bloodhound you.

and that's why we love it here

[basti]

You always find everything I say everywhere and post it here you diligent bloodhound you.

Hes not the only one stalking you. read tat as well, but hamma was first with posting, as always. Gnah!

Anyway, back to stalking. Need to get spy glasses and a ticket to SD. Any suggestions where i should be to spy into your office? :D

[moosepoop]

i have no problem with a kill cam.

however, i have huge problem with battlefield style killcam. the close up in front of your enemy is annoying, and doesnt help you spot where he is. most of the time it only makes me rage.


in planetside the kill came needs to be BEHIND your killer, NOT the front.

[Raymac]

I like Higby's ideas there on reddit. I think there has got to be a way to have a killcam that is a good learning tool, but at the same time, doesn't give away timely valuable intel on the killer. It's a very valid point that snipers shouldn't be punished for finding a good spot.

I personally like the COD style (1st person view) killcam because it was able to teach me 2 extremely valuable lessons that made me much better at that game. 1) Where to stand and where not to stand. and 2) How much to lead somebody when I'm aiming. This 2nd point may be even more valuable because finding that sweet spot when your aiming can be a little tricky as you are learning, and watching how somebody does it right can go a long way in helping new players get over the big hump in the learning curve.

I don't know if I like the idea of people who want to opt out of the killcam having to give away an implant slot because that seems like a fairly harsh penalty for their preference, and I've learned that they can be pretty passionate about it. So I think just having it be an option in the menu would work fine. There's enough death going around that there should be enough people that opt in to be able to help / taunt the new players.

[NapalmEnima]

I find it interesting that while Higby listed several options that would be Quite Interesting, he did not indicate what type of kill cam was in the current build (if any) or which way they were leaning.

Interesting Indeed.

[Helwyr]

I don't know if I like the idea of people who want to opt out of the killcam having to give away an implant slot because that seems like a fairly harsh penalty for their preference, and I've learned that they can be pretty passionate about it. So I think just having it be an option in the menu would work fine. There's enough death going around that there should be enough people that opt in to be able to help / taunt the new players.

Yes I hate the idea of having to spend a valuable implant slot to avoid kill cams. It's basically saying if you don't like your class/playstyle being nerfed this way you can choose to nerf it a different way. If implants were tied into this at all (and I don't think they should be) players should have to spend an implant slot to get kill cams, not to avoid them.

A better way would be to have certain classes like Sniper and Cloakers have inbuilt immunity.

Best option though if kill cams are only meant as a learning tool, would be to allow everyone the (free) option to switch off the kill cam feature for their Avatar altogether.

[FIREk]

You always find everything I say everywhere and post it here you diligent bloodhound you.

PSU. Stalking devs so you don't have to.

[Graywolves]

PSU. Stalking devs so you don't have to.

Who wants to know which Shampoo and Conditioner Higby uses?

[SuperMorto]

What if your an infiltrator?........

[basti]

Who wants to know which Shampoo and Conditioner Higby uses?

Obviously Old Spice.

[Hamma]

You always find everything I say everywhere and post it here you diligent bloodhound you.

:rofl:

Many years of experience in digging up PlanetSide news.. ;)

Not just me though! The community often finds things and submits them to me, and of course the staff (often times Gryphon) finds these lost obscure posts and threads.

PSU. Stalking devs so you don't have to.

:rofl:

Submit that (http://www.planetside-universe.com/ps/quote.php) if you haven't already.. :p

[Mastachief]

Couple comments from Higby over on Reddit:





Entire exchange here (http://www.reddit.com/r/Planetside/comments/kyvwo/kill_cams_really/).

<3 Higby

[Talek Krell]

Couple comments from Higby over on Reddit:





Entire exchange here (http://www.reddit.com/r/Planetside/comments/kyvwo/kill_cams_really/).My faiths. U has restored dem! Don't want to have to use an implant to dodge kill cams, but the other stuff is pretty golden. I especially like that idea with the taunting, for some reason that I can't entirely explain.

[Captain B]

Interesting ideas. How are implants being utilized, have they been hinted at? Like are they "you get an implant at X, Y and Z levels" or are they basically just cert trees? Curious what all you'd have to give up to get kill cams or block them, etc.

[Talek Krell]

Hm, good question. Other than certs being involved we don't really know anything about them.

[Zulthus]

You'll need an IMPLANT slot to block useless and revealing killcams? Ugh. I seriously hope this is considered to suck in the beta. Honestly, the argument that it helps newer players is pretty bunk. If you thought you were behind cover and you got killed, it is pretty obvious that you weren't behind cover. Not everyone is a hacker. I know that I'm "overreacting" or whatever, but until I see these "killcams" in action, this is my stance on the topic.

[Raymac]

You'll need an IMPLANT slot to block useless and revealing killcams? Ugh. I seriously hope this is considered to suck in the beta. Honestly, the argument that it helps newer players is pretty bunk. If you thought you were behind cover and you got killed, it is pretty obvious that you weren't behind cover. Not everyone is a hacker. I know that I'm "overreacting" or whatever, but until I see these "killcams" in action, this is my stance on the topic.

You didn't read what Higby said about it. Did you? You might want to check it out.

[Zulthus]

You didn't read what Higby said about it. Did you? You might want to check it out.

Oh no, I read it all. I'm posting off of the worst case that I read. Even "better" cases are still bad. This is all just in my opinion, of course.

[Graywolves]

Webcams are just dumb. You can learn what happened without them. If someone needs their hand held to learn how they died, they probably are just going to continue being bad at the game anyways.

[Zulthus]

Webcams are just dumb. You can learn what happened without them. If someone needs their hand held to learn how they died, they probably are just going to continue being bad at the game anyways.

I dunno, I find webcams pretty useful for long-distance contact...

[Graywolves]

I dunno, I find webcams pretty useful for long-distance contact...

lmfao, freudian slip.

[Raymac]

Guys, I don't want to keep going over the same argument, but I just want to say this. Killcams are a great learning tool. You may disagree with that point, but for me it is a reality. Granted this is andecdotal, but the killcams in MW2 made me a much better player at that game. They not only sped up the learning process on things like where to go and where not to go, but also on how best to aim the different weapons, especially when it comes to leading your target. Simply writing that off as "bunk" is selling killcams short. Just because they won't improve your awesome skills doesn't mean they don't help anyone.

The devs can find a way to implement them that will help players like myself ("bad players"), but not nerf players like you. Then at the end of the day if it still doesn't work, they will take them out before launch. That doesn't sound very controversial to me at all.

[Graywolves]

Raymac has a point.

The majority of us have loads of experience on FPS. For some people the killcams might be very useful.

But I still would not want it in the form that MW or BF has it.

[Helwyr]

The devs can find a way to implement them that will help players like myself ("bad players"), but not nerf players like you. Then at the end of the day if it still doesn't work, they will take them out before launch. That doesn't sound very controversial to me at all.

If the bolded statement is true, then no there's no problem. IMO kill cams shouldn't impact the battlefield outcome in anyway beyond the dubious claim that it educates bad/new players on how to play better. But if Kill Cams acts as an intel tool in anyway without players being able to opt out of being seen on kill cams then I will not agree your statement is true and remain opposed to Kill Cams. I would think many others here would feel the same.

[Traak]

Noobs can always shriek and blubber in local chat to find why things went so terribly wrong. Someone usually will educate them.

[Princess Frosty]

This would inevitably lower the experience of the game for infiltrators, if you kill someone and they get to see your position that's really lame.

If you kill someone and the kill cam is suppressed somehow via an implant, then they're still going to know there's an infiltrator about, unless as an infiltrator you can choose to associate the death of an enemy to the last friendly shooting at him and give him a fake kill cam to divert attention away from you, that would be workable.

[Traak]

Yeah, another layer of slinking anonymity for the cloakers. I like that.

[Tikuto]

I would rather see what my team is doing instead of having a ragefit encouraged by a Kill Cam. :P

[Zulthus]

Guys, I don't want to keep going over the same argument, but I just want to say this. Killcams are a great learning tool. You may disagree with that point, but for me it is a reality. Granted this is andecdotal, but the killcams in MW2 made me a much better player at that game. They not only sped up the learning process on things like where to go and where not to go, but also on how best to aim the different weapons, especially when it comes to leading your target. Simply writing that off as "bunk" is selling killcams short. Just because they won't improve your awesome skills doesn't mean they don't help anyone.

The devs can find a way to implement them that will help players like myself ("bad players"), but not nerf players like you. Then at the end of the day if it still doesn't work, they will take them out before launch. That doesn't sound very controversial to me at all.

Yeah, I know. You've said it 20 times. I just don't think so. That's fine. And no, I didn't simply write any argument off. I keep giving my reasons, so quit trying to throw my arguments in the trash while putting yours on the pedestal. So, to compromise, there should be a period when you create your first character, you have say a month or so until killcams are disabled. Haven't learned by then, too bad.

[Crator]

The devs can find a way to implement them that will help players like myself ("bad players"), but not nerf players like you. Then at the end of the day if it still doesn't work, they will take them out before launch. That doesn't sound very controversial to me at all.

Raymac has a point.

The majority of us have loads of experience on FPS. For some people the killcams might be very useful.

Noobs can always shriek and blubber in local chat to find why things went so terribly wrong. Someone usually will educate them.

That's the main issue. Having to fall-back on the shoulders of another real player for help shouldn't be the primary method. But, I suppose I'm confused on what this really means in regards to kill cams.

Yeah, I know. You've said it 20 times. I just don't think so. That's fine. And no, I didn't simply write any argument off. I keep giving my reasons, so quit trying to throw my arguments in the trash while putting yours on the pedestal. So, to compromise, there should be a period when you create your first character, you have say a month or so until killcams are disabled. Haven't learned by then, too bad.

That's not a bad idea, only allow the use of kill cams for the first month of play. If kill cams are being used to learn with. But they also stated they wanted to put them in for the fun of it.

[Kran De Loy]

Isn't the name of the cert/implant tree game supposed to be customization and sidegrades? Having a cert/implant that disabled kill cams smacks too much of a +power cert, having a cert/implant that enabled kill cams would be the same.

Having a time limit like the one month idea is also a bit unfair, but better than most ideas imo. Say instead that kill cams are disabled once a character becomes so and so old or such and such amount of training points are earned. That way it makes experienced good players give up the kill cam quicker since the devs said they wanted for people actively playing to earn points slightly quicker than the normal as a reward for .. well .. playing.

[Kran De Loy]

Oh btw: I fucking hate kill cams with a vengeance. While they may teach the unenlightened, they are just as effective to experienced players who in the end would be able to use them more effectively than a simple n00b and more effectively than a bad player will ever be able to. (assuming bad players means people that seem to have some sort of learning disability.)

And PS2 is an MMO, so the corporate masters will of course pressure the crap out of the dev team to cater to as many people as possible. As in The Lowest Denominator, not the common one either. I have faith in the Higby and T-Ray, but eventually there are always cracks when dealing with such high amounts of pressure that only the idea of a few million dollars can cause.

[xSlideShow]

Ok... so at this point in this whole kill cam debate I'm confused... People are afraid other players are gonna what give away their positions? You killed them... They know your there. They can see where the bullets came from anyway. Quit camping? 2nd ok, cloakers and their positions being given up. Again you killed some one they know your there. The only thing they've learned is where you were stand like 3-1 seconds before they died. So again quit camping? Your gonna have to reposition anyway...

The only people I can really side with having a problem with kill cams is snipers. If there is something I'm missing please explain in great detail because all I've read is the same thing over and over. And still it doesn't make sense.

By great detail I mean I need a diagram at this point cause you guys just seem to be bitching.

[NapalmEnima]

I think kill cams would be fine so long as they don't give away the position of the person that killed you. You could make adjustments to the cam based on the class/weapon that killed you.


Sniper rifle: Put the camera half way between you and the sniper. You still get an excellent idea of what you looked like to them, and which direction the shot came from (which is often the case with damage indicators and so forth anyway... plus that whole "agonizing pain" thing). What you don't get is a look at the scenery around them.

Knife: 3-5 seconds of them walking up behind you and sticking it in.

Infiltrator: Bullet time wrap around of you that ends with you looking in the right general direction.



And taunts could give you the full 3-5 seconds of their view prior to your death.

But all that is a lot more work.

[Helwyr]

IF they made your asses stare at a black screen for several seconds everytime you died awaiting to respawn, every last one of you would be asking for a kill-cam.

No actually I kind of like that idea. It would certainly be way better than kill cams, maybe they could give us a swirly death tunnel thing like they had in Shadowbane or a cut scene of our new clone being activated.

[Graywolves]

Likewise, I already provide myself with things to do over the respawn in Planetside.

I personally am not interested in a Kill-cam in the form it is in most games.

[MockZero2]

A kill cam would most certainly make that respawn time a easier to bear. I know PS2 is going to be a lot faster paced but i would have given up an implant slot to use 10 sc of my respawn time to become a better player.

[Xyntech]

Likewise, I already provide myself with things to do over the respawn in Planetside.

I hated the respawn in Planetside. Not saying that a kill cam is the answer, I just hated how in Planetside you couldn't check the global map or do much of anything after hitting respawn.

I always thought that the respawn timer should count down from the moment you died, not the moment you chose a respawn location. If it reaches zero before you've picked a location, you'd be able to instantly respawn wherever you chose.

It would have made waiting for a medic to res you a lot more common since it woudn't detract from your ability to respawn quickly elsewhere.

[BUGGER]

Unless someone is dolphin diving in the kill cam, seeing a CR5 pull out his command thing and look to the horizon only to see an Orbital laser. Seems anti climatic.

Waste of space, open up the map or other interface options. Spawn time was an efficient method to get jack shit done, or grab a snack. Frankly, I'm not that hungry after I die 10 times.

[Dahlian]

I guess killcam can have it's uses, but...

I'm not convinced killcam is the most ideal learning tool. Actually, I think providing post-death statistics on what weapons hit you and the area they hit is alot more important.

If for example you got hit by 3 weapons, it can show in percentage how much each weapon dealt to you, and to what body parts. This would let you know what setups/weapons/ammo to look out for.

The location damage would be helpful to see what parts of you wasn't behind cover. And if the post-screen could even show which direction each shot hit the body, it'd be everything you need.

I belive this will give you alot more situational awareness than showing a trollface enemy on your screen for five secs. It would also prevent you from having effortless intel on the enemy. I don't belive a sniper doing his job should be punished for it.

This would also make alot more sense and create better immersion. Seeing as your body is reconstructed after death, the signal that puts this into motion probably would inform you how you died as well. Without having to resort to gameshow esque floaty cam of your enemy, dispelling the illusion of warfare.

I'll go one further. Killcam works in BF and COD because the maps and battleflow are rather static. The angles of the battles doesn't change and you learn all the little hiding spots quicker. PS has a bigger world and will be more dynamic in its flow. If the continent is anywhere near PS1 size, a killcam won't help you much. You'll rarely be fighting the exact same battle in the same place. However, giving you more direct info on several elements that lead to your unavoidable death can help you understand the game flow faster.

[Tiberius]

I hate kill cams, the last thing I want to do is relive how I just got owned lol

[Xyntech]

I guess killcam can have it's uses, but...

(rest of post)

That sounds a lot more useful than a kill cam. That could be pretty cool as a way of keeping track of what happened in a really crazy firefight.

Fits in with the high amount of statistics that the devs plan to make available.

[xSlideShow]

That sounds a lot more useful than a kill cam. That could be pretty cool as a way of keeping track of what happened in a really crazy firefight.

Fits in with the high amount of statistics that the devs plan to make available.

What he suggest is a kill cam.

[Xyntech]

What he suggest is a kill cam.

Okay, I mean a more traditional kill cam. What he suggests sounds more like a kill screen, with more information than cinematics.

[xSlideShow]

That gives you the same information. His is just giving you numbers instead of a video of what happened. Making it that much harder to understand. No noob is going to want to see all these numbers they aren't going to actually use that has a tool. Most your going to get is "the fuck is this? Oh that's cool i guess tells me how many times I just got shot in the back..."

You may get 1 or 2 noobs that actually use this as a tool. But a kill cam they'll use right away with no instruction to do so from anyone. And people saying they hate seeing how they died. Make it so you can skip the kill cam, which I'm sure they did.

People are making it seem like it's going to be so abused by the players base. But I know I don't use the kill cams in any game unless I get the fuck just happened scenario. And once your experience that doesn't happen often. If the game has any bullet direction indicators you already know where the guy is. It takes an experience player a very short amount of time to figure out what is going on around them. When they die 80% of the time even if they do get ambushed they see their killer and are probably just gonna skip the kill cam.

[Xyntech]

I believe this falls back to Higby's ol' "If it sucks in beta, it's gone" statements.

Let's see how annoying/exploitable/skipable it is before we get too bent out of shape about it.

Speculation and expressing personal preference are great, within reason.

I think threads like this are at their best when they are kicking around how things might be, or how they could hypothetically be handled. That's the best we can do with what little information we have and it can actually be somewhat productive occasionally. Blindly hating on things or dismissing them out of hand isn't so productive, but at least it is usually followed by a more interesting discussion.

[Dahlian]

@ Xslideshow

Actually, its not the same. Kill-cam only shows you the location of the person to last-hit you, not how much damage others did specifically.

And no it would not be as revealing as a kill-cam. Indicating that you were shot in the back only tells the direction, but you don't see where he's taking cover, know his distance or if he was on the move. Which means you have alot of ground to cover if your going to find him. His motives remains hidden. Was he going east or west? Was he crouching/camping? Was he in open terrain or behind obstacles? Etc.

I think you underestimate peoples intelligence. It's not hard to understand that weapon A took 30 % and Weapon B 70%. But this largely comes down to how the data is presented. A good way to deliver such info is keeping it simple on the surface with additional stats revealed as you click around.

If it annoys or gets in the way as players advance, there could always be a option to turn it off without putting players at a disadvantage.

[Redshift]

maybe it should cut to a screen of a gravestone in a peaceful field with some lass crying into a handkerchief, all done in 8-bit graphics.... That would do it for me ;)

I too am a little concerned about kill cams for some classes, zooming directly into a sniper or a cloaker would just seem to negate the classes defences. Maybe kill cams for some classes and super slow-mo replays of you getting pwned for other classes ;)

[xSlideShow]

@ Xslideshow

Actually, its not the same. Kill-cam only shows you the location of the person to last-hit you, not how much damage others did specifically.

And no it would not be as revealing as a kill-cam. Indicating that you were shot in the back only tells the direction, but you don't see where he's taking cover, know his distance or if he was on the move. Which means you have alot of ground to cover if your going to find him. His motives remains hidden. Was he going east or west? Was he crouching/camping? Was he in open terrain or behind obstacles? Etc.

I think you underestimate peoples intelligence. It's not hard to understand that weapon A took 30 % and Weapon B 70%. But this largely comes down to how the data is presented. A good way to deliver such info is keeping it simple on the surface with additional stats revealed as you click around.

If it annoys or gets in the way as players advance, there could always be a option to turn it off without putting players at a disadvantage.

Would see where the shots hit. And who else was hitting you... Why would you need all this data telling you the exact amount of damage you took? You are dead. You know how much damage you took, enough to kill you. Odds are if there is more than one guy there is nothing you could have done. So this data is rather useless.

I don't underestimate peoples intelligence I'm looking at it logically. Put yourself in the shoes of a 13 year old who just got this game. He is now slain, he is not going to want to look at a spreadsheet with a whole bunch of numbers on it just to find out in the end. It performs the same basic function as a kill cam. The information your also talking about giving to players also doesn't really help them get better does it? It just tells them what weapons to look out for. Which they probably could have learned that same thing from looking at the kill spam. On the direction of the bullets, you are also gonna know cause guess what Planetside 2 is almost 100% gonna have? Bullet indicators... So before you died. You've already obtained this information.

Better players are not going to use the kill cam to find locations of enemies. Cause odds are they knew where they were before they died. Your intent was still compromised, you killed some one they know your there. They don't need a kill cam to figure out they died and that there is an enemy lurking around.

The only people who should really be worried about a kill cam is snipers and if they are implemented in the way Higby has suggested with a taunt then... none of what you've said really matters.

[RobinHood]

So much DO NOT WANT!!! Gah, killcams and other console pap is the bane of my existence! At least give PLAYERS the option to turn it off, I do NOT want to see that even if others can.

[Dahlian]

Would see where the shots hit. And who else was hitting you... Why would you need all this data telling you the exact amount of damage you took? You are dead. You know how much damage you took, enough to kill you. Odds are if there is more than one guy there is nothing you could have done. So this data is rather useless.

I don't underestimate peoples intelligence I'm looking at it logically. Put yourself in the shoes of a 13 year old who just got this game. He is now slain, he is not going to want to look at a spreadsheet with a whole bunch of numbers on it just to find out in the end. It performs the same basic function as a kill cam. The information your also talking about giving to players also doesn't really help them get better does it? It just tells them what weapons to look out for. Which they probably could have learned that same thing from looking at the kill spam. On the direction of the bullets, you are also gonna know cause guess what Planetside 2 is almost 100% gonna have? Bullet indicators... So before you died. You've already obtained this information.

Better players are not going to use the kill cam to find locations of enemies. Cause odds are they knew where they were before they died. Your intent was still compromised, you killed some one they know your there. They don't need a kill cam to figure out they died and that there is an enemy lurking around.

The only people who should really be worried about a kill cam is snipers and if they are implemented in the way Higby has suggested with a taunt then... none of what you've said really matters.

It's not useless information. You will understand the relation between different weapons and situations quicker. Which is useful for new players. We are not talking advanced excel spreadsheets here. They learn to prioritize targets and optimize their damage and class builds . Knowing you were at a disadvantage and why is useful for future reference.

You are always outmatched in planetside, you'll always die, and there will always be lessons to be learned. The battles are alot more dynamic, this isn't 32 on 32 BF or COD style where K/D is what matters most. There will be battles of 10 vs 50, 30 vs 40 or 100 vs 200. The point of this data is to help newcomers grasp and better handle the greater variety of scenarios in a sandbox FPS MMO. Showing them a cam of a enemy for a few secs is pointless in a sandbox setting. It's mostly used for griefing or revenge killing rather than learning anyway. You will die, what matters is how quickly you learn.

Another thing to take into account is the skillsystem, it will muddy the water even more. Custom weapons/vehicles, upgrades and buffs, these things will matter to a new player. In the grand scheme of things, understanding the advantage of veteran players is very useful. Imagine the thousands of combinations of skill+weapon sets you can do. This game will have tons more variables than BF.

And to be blunt, I don't have to put myself in the shoes of a 13 year old cause they vary as much as any old person. Some grasp things quicker and is more paitent than others. Even if its rated 13+, most kids thats going to play it would probably be more like 16 - 21, and teens in general have alot better relationship with numbers then mature adults do.

Here is a few examples of good post death screens that serve a better purpose than kill-cam.

Relics Space marine, its mechanics might not be as tight as other games or dedicated servers, but its post death screen is wonderful. It shows weapons and perks, the entire setup of the enemy. Knowing advantages/weaknesses of that build, I would use this info to counter it and similar builds.

Leauge of legends is another game that has a wonderful post death screen, showing the builds, and abilities that killed you. Let's you know what to look out for and why you were outplayed.

Eve online's killboards and ingame aftermath on the ships you lost is pretty handy to view, how many that ganked you and what ships etc they were flying.

If you look at games like dawn of war 2, where they also try to "hide" information it actually makes the game harder for new people to understand. You actually need to do google search and read /advanced spreadsheets/ cause the game designers didnt want to scare noobs. Ironically it has the opposite effect of ensuring they stay noobish, contrary to a game like Starcraft where they try to inform as much as possible.

As for the revealing part of killcam, how much it reveals depends a bit on the implentation. But if it shows the enemy soldier you will be able to pinpoint his location more accurate. You can easier define hiding place, distance and landmarks based on visual confirmation. Telling somone he is north is not the same thing. Knowing how to use kill-cam as a observational tool is a big asset. I know many good players that uses it this way.

[Whalenator]

Why are any of you surprised? Seriously, every mechanic they can possibly put in from BF, they will do it. They have taken out most PS style stuff and put in BF. Kill cams are of course terrible much like the bf style vehicles, but saw it comin a mile away. They want their BF game, they just take BF, up the players, paste on PS names/factions/graphic look on top, and call it PS2. Not much left they can take from BF honestly, but i can think of a few things, but honestly dont wanna say it as im afraid they would see this and put that crap in too....but i bet they already have it and we just dont know it yet. =(

What, and you're surprised?
Didn't 6 years of patchless PS1 hell teach you anything?

WELCOME TO SOE, WHERE DREAMS GO TO DIE

[Lord Cosine]

I hated the respawn in Planetside. Not saying that a kill cam is the answer, I just hated how in Planetside you couldn't check the global map or do much of anything after hitting respawn.

I always thought that the respawn timer should count down from the moment you died, not the moment you chose a respawn location. If it reaches zero before you've picked a location, you'd be able to instantly respawn wherever you chose.

It would have made waiting for a medic to res you a lot more common since it woudn't detract from your ability to respawn quickly elsewhere.

I agree with everything you said. These are little things that would be easy to overlook, however they would be so nice if they were in.