TR Max lockdown - Not again!

[Marsgrim]

You cannot seriously be proposing to keep the TR MAX lockdown. It doesn;t matter what has changed in the game design/engine, the fundemental rule of an FPS is stationary = dead.

The idea in PS was horribly thought out, incredibly poorly balanced and one of the universally agreed flaws - the DC has to lockdown to acheive the same TTK as a moving Scatmax, which has a shield to eat a deci. This is why the TR have comparitively fewer MAXes at this stage in the game.

The only way this is remotely viable is if they got significant shield/health improvements, but even then it just makes whoever is using it too easy a target.

Please, please, please, please reconsider. This is something I will bet now you get pleaded to change in beta - start thinking of the alternatives!!

[CutterJohn]

I agree I was not all that pleased to see its return. Overdrive was a far better concept.

Though it could just be a max ability, and not a TR special, and confer some serious defensive boosts when used.

[DviddLeff]

Quite simply the fire rate bonus needs to be worth sacrificing movement to attain.

Back at PS1's launch I believe the TR MAXs had a ~80% fire rate when not locked down, and ~120% when locked down. This was obviously ridiculous. What they need is 100% fire rate, which then increases enough to be worth staying still for.

Note that the VS MAX only sacrificed accuracy when jumping; they should probably not be able to fire when jumping to balance out against the other empires.

[Sirisian]

Note that the VS MAX only sacrificed accuracy when jumping; they should probably not be able to fire when jumping to balance out against the other empires.
And when the NC use their shield their gun shouldn't fire through it?

Rather just see a non-locked down TR. I completely agree that not being able to move was the TR max downfall. I used to kill their AA max on hills using my liberator front gun. Best part is when they were locked down and you'd come up behind them.

[DviddLeff]

I thought the NC MAX couldn't fire when the shield was up?

[Malorn]

And when the NC use their shield their gun shouldn't fire through it?

Firing disabled the NC shield. They had to choose - shield up OR fire. They didn't get both. After they stop firing there was a short delay before the shield would turn back on (several seconds). So they couldn't shield -> fire -> shield. They would be vulnerable while firing and shortly after stopping. And the shield only gave them like 40% more hp or something assuming a full charge. Charge drained while it was up.

NC max shield was the most balanced of the MAX special abilities. Tradeoffs, weaknesses, warm-up time, a penalty for constantly having it on, not firing while its up, etc.

[Marsgrim]

The shield was balanced, the scatmax was not though - it's the most feared thing in the game and can take out 2 or 3 rexo's even when beingf targetted by AV maxes.

I have no particular issue with the shield.

I have a MASSIVE problem with the lockdown, as will every TR player and quite a few NC and VS. It's just suicide in most cases, it's incredibly situational and of little use!

[Aractain]

The shield was a cool feature that promoted tactical use. Jumping was useful in a lot of situations, lockdown was nessesary all the time but a major disadvantage.

The solution is not to remove it though (it really fits the TR theme). The solution is simply to make it very fast to switch in and out of (less than a second setup/down time) and or make it really amazing like Dviddleff says.

[Talek Krell]

There may be some potential in that idea of giving it defensive bonuses.

[Captain B]

It does have a defensive bonus, though - in defense. You lock down and anything that waltzes down the hallway gets shred.

It's offensively defensive!

[Canaris]

Even with a defense bonus on top of the a ROF increase, which is all in all is a good idea. it still leaves the MAX glued to the ground, where it just becomes a bullet/rocket/whatever magnet.

[Redshift]

Lockdown was a bad concept, you had to use it and as such you were a sitting duck. Overdrive was better but could allow the MAX to become to strong if they had time to charge between fights.

Personally i'd like to see all the MAX's have interchangable specials, so MAX's could choose different setups for different roles.

(I'd also make lockdown give you a forward facing shield charging like the current NC shield)

[basti]

What the hell are you guys talking? Lockdown is and was awesome. Granted, in a lot of situations it killed you rather quickly, but if you had 2 or 3 DC maxes locked down pointing at one door, and not the entire enemy army storming at you at the same time, then you held that one door forever.

What often caused issues is the lag. Doors opening after shots went throu etc, often DC users just didnt see the enemy after they got hit by the deci.

Besides that, im pretty sure that the entire customization stuff will allow more than just the lockdown ability for TR maxes. Im pretty sure you guys can go with a lot of possible abilitys, maybe all maxes now have all ability, and we just have to choose?

[Redshift]

What the hell are you guys talking? Lockdown is and was awesome. Granted, in a lot of situations it killed you rather quickly, but if you had 2 or 3 DC maxes locked down pointing at one door, and not the entire enemy army storming at you at the same time, then you held that one door forever.
often DC users just didnt see the enemy after they got hit by the deci.


You're VS of course you liked lockdown, 2-3 of any MAX guarding a door held it forever, the difference being that VS and NC MAXes would not be standing in the exact same place every time you popped round the corner to fire a deci

[Mirror]

I think this needs to wait till beta.

With all the customization I would bet that max "special" abilities are another thing that can be altered.

[Lartnev]

There are already a few things in Planetside 2 that make lockdown more viable:
1) The TTK of infantry will be quicker (presumably the TTK of a MAX unit too...)
2) No 3rd person view
3) No freeform inventory (no carrying around a decimator just in case)
4) Improved netcode

I want to see lockdown again, it was the coolest animation in the original game and the principle of being able to dish out devastating firepower at the expense of mobility is a fair trade in my opinion.

[kaffis]

You're VS of course you liked lockdown, 2-3 of any MAX guarding a door held it forever, the difference being that VS and NC MAXes would not be standing in the exact same place every time you popped round the corner to fire a deci
I'm NC. I would've traded shield for lockdown any day of the week, and twice on Sundays.

I'll admit my dirty little secret. I had a TR character on another server just so I could pull Bursters and Dual Cyclers.

Long live lockdown! It's fine if you think the specifics weren't quite tweaked to a proper balance. But objecting to the very notion of lockdown, or claiming that "in a FPS, stationary = death" -- get your heads out of your asses.

Sure, in an FPS, stationary = death if you're facing overwhelming odds in the first place. If the fight's pretty even, there's nothing wrong with stationary, provided it offers good advantages. And even in a 1v1, stationary = death isn't the case if stationary provides you with the firepower to melt the other guy before he can dance around you.

I never had a problem backing against a wall and locking down with my Burster -- I had a good 120 degrees of aerial killing field, and I owned that 120 degrees. It was mine, no ifs, ands, or buts. Likewise, locking a DC down in defense of a generator, or a hallway. So long as the lag wasn't raping me, whatever came through the door died a painful death in very short order.

[LZachariah]

Honestly, I'm thrilled that they're including the pylons for Terran MAXes, and I'm Vanu straight through to my heart. Not only is lockdown an iconic aspect of the Terran MAXes, but it exemplifies their strategies of overwhelming force. Now, I never played Terran, but I hear people's concerns about the vulnerability inherent in locking downs with the pylons. The answer? MAKE LOCKDOWN MORE POWERFUL. This is a fundamental and badass aspect of Terran MAXes, but I want to make sure that everyone is happy with it. Is a 130% damage and rate of fire increase not enough? No problem, make it 180%, or 200%. Whatever makes it worthwhile. Make it that a pylon'd MAX needs to be very cautious, but that it's a hurricane of death to anything facing 150 degrees in front of it.

T-Ray and Higby have been speaking about the EXTENSIVE balancing-work they're doing; I believe they can get this one right.


~Zachariah

[Brusi]

Sweet, was hoping max lockdown was coming back. Organised leapfrog of 3 or more DC's was an awesome way to take a tower!

[Traak]

Lock down is absolutely necessary. A big part of why to play TR, for me. I am intelligent enough to factor in immobility when considering a position.

TR MAXes without lockdown is like NC maxes without shields. T'aint right. You think I cared about being locked down when getting killed? Ha! With my framerates and the people dancing around me with their HA, it didn't make a difference. It DID make a huge difference in how fast the cheaters could fly off miraculously unscathed after receiving a full clip, or more, however.

Lockdown. It's a TR thing. You wouldn't understand.

[Captain1nsaneo]

Focus seems to be on the DC here, the burster and pounder were both MONSTERS when locked down. I really enjoyed using the TR maxes when I got the chance though the DC did feel a bit weak. Lockdown is fine, tune the DC and there probably won't be any problems.

[PrISM]

Just remove MAXes altogether and the problem is solved.

[Azren]

In the good old' days of PS the lockdown maxes were beasts. I remember that noone (I repeat: noone) was able to get past 3-4 locked down maxes in a tower or backdoor. We were shooting everyone in sight while getting constantly repaired from behind.

Those were the times when not everyone had AV and/or SA.

[morf]

Being TR I am really skeptical about this one. But on thing is for sure:

If lockdown is included, it needs to be PURE GRAVY. In other words, a mobile TR max needs to have the same TTK as a mobile NC or VS max. Then the lockdown buff is just a bonus. You aren't always defending and there are times when you need to be mobile. Don't force us to be locked down to compete, make it a true powerup commeasurate with the sacrifice of mobility.

So for example if the VS or NC abilities make their max 30 percent more effective through mobility or shields or jumping (I know this is arbitrary and subjective, I'm throwing out a number for illustration) but point being, in this case lockdown would need to be more than a 30% increase to keep on par with other abilities PLUS compensate for the loss of mobility, which the others don't have to sacrifice. And yes I know the nc shield and not shooting while its up also is a downside and should be accounted for.

[DaSwede]

The thing that always killed you as a locked down max was the time it took to deploy / release the anchors, that needs to be sped up.

And anyone who claims that locked down maxes holds a door forever have never played a TR recently.

I remember when a locked down burster actually could shred air and live even if fired on first. Now with the lower splash damage you need to get a head start or you will be looking for a response point. The capacitor bubble was a poor implementation to try and make a non locked down max semi dangerous. Mobility is and always will be key and having to sacrifice it needs to be rewarded way more than it is now.

Sent from my EVO

[Bags]

I loved lockdown. It made me feel like a bad ass.

Though I never used the AI max sooo... I'm a little biased.

[Raymac]

I thought lockdown was probably the weakest of the 3 max abilities, but it certainly had it's advantages. I think it could be left in and balanced a bit better, or maybe TR maxes will still have lockdown AND overdrive. Basically, if you stayed locked down after you took 1 deci to the face, then you deserved to die.

[Redshift]

Is a 130% damage and rate of fire increase not enough? No problem, make it 180%, or 200%.

~Zachariah

Thing is you can't balance it, either it's shit when not locked down or bat shit loco when locked down.

Overdrive combated that a bit by forcing to be short bursts of higher RoF, but realistically any special which bumps the TTK is going to cause the MAX to be balanced according to that, hence when it's not using it it sucks.

[Graywolves]

I've used MAX's for roughly 8 years now.....

I'll start off with saying I like lockdown but... Compared to having a shield or being able to jump over someone's head it's just not that good. Many times I get someone that pokes inside the door for less than a second to pop off a deci at me and at that point I can either move away for repairs or hope I got 2-3 engineers behind me....

I do like lockdown and think it can work but the TR Max's need to be able to actually fight other MAX's evenly 1v1 instead of needing to lockdown just to be on par. Even then you're not going to win, NC MAX shields and walks behind you, VS Max jumps over your head.

Personally I feel a design that relies on you having numbers and coordinated force is just bad. Not simply because it forces teamwork for success but because if the NC and VS aren't designed for that - they are able to be more effective when they do simply because their equipment is more efficient on the individual level. (this paragraph was directed to "TR is designed for strength in numbers etc.)


Lastly, we have a jetpack class that is balanced through weaker weaponry as they will be able to jump onto cliffs and meneuver through lots of rigid terrain. So we can conclude that terrain will be made with this in mind correct? Wouldn't the VS Jetpack MAX break the balance as they would be the only empire able to easily bring MAX suits to these locations that the other empires can only rely on light assualt?


If Lockdown is going to stay it needs to actually be beneficial instead of a small speed increase... Some form of a defensive boost is required and that makes balancing really tricky. It's hard to keep lockdown in and not make TR MAX's crap.

[Captain1nsaneo]

Lastly, we have a jetpack class that is balanced through weaker weaponry as they will be able to jump onto cliffs and meneuver through lots of rigid terrain. So we can conclude that terrain will be made with this in mind correct? Wouldn't the VS Jetpack MAX break the balance as they would be the only empire able to easily bring MAX suits to these locations that the other empires can only rely on light assualt?

It will only be like how VS maxes get on top of towers now so there's not much to fear. In fact, VS maxes will be less deadly up on top due to engies not being able to fly (I think).

Lock down should give a defensive bonus but no overdrive. Bursters as they are now are the only AA maxes that can get reliable kills on reavers as overdrive lets them dish out enough damage to kill them before they get outside of range. The skys are always clearer above TR bases than they are over VS or NC as the ambush tactics that aircraft depend on count for far less with overdrive.
Would lockdown suffice if it also regenerated armor? That would increase survivability (say 4 decis) while also giving lowered TTK in trade for movement. The goal is as always to make something that's not an unstoppable machine but a significant threat that takes skill to use.

[RedKnights]

Yea I really don't think you should be whining about such things at this point until you see how it's implemented. With the overall faster pace of gameplay it stands to reason the switching would be about the same amount of time.

The fact is though the TR lockdown was viable in PS1, unless you were stupid. And the amount of DPS is dished out while locked down, coupled with indirect fire capabilities, made it quite formidable and quite a bit of fun.

Also, the burster was awesome, possibly the best MAX in the game in terms of how it can change the dynamic of a fight outdoors

[Krowe]

Lockdown is what made those suits useful at all, plus it fits with the TR ideal of 'Dakka dakka dakka'.

[Captain B]

Why does the TR MAX have to be "as good as" VS or NC MAXes in every variant (AI, AV, AA)? The scatMAX of NC was awesome in close quarters, but in open field combat or semi-long range? I'd bet money the TR with dual cannons would be able to drop the NC MAX and his buddies in such situations.

The TR MAX is for defense. It can still move and shoot with the rest of them and be effective in general, but it shines as a defensive unit. That's where its advantages lie. That's like comparing the Gauss and Cycler. At longer ranges I dropped people with ease with the Cycler, but I never could keep those magnetically charged rounds from landing on target with my Gauss unless it was pretty close.

Different weapons, different advantages, different disadvantages.

[Xyntech]

I hope to see all empires have a good sized pool of weapons and special abilities to choose from.

Maybe a TR MAX without the lockdown ability has a more average TTK, but one with lockdown installed has a longer TTK that gets significantly lower when it locks down.

If it isn't strong enough to justify locking down, buff it. If it's too strong when not locked down (when it has the ability slotted), nerf it. Give it a higher TTK and/or more armor, but I think it is a very iconic ability that would be a shame to get rid of completely.

On the other hand, hopefully some alternate special abilities give some options for those who like to play as a MAX and like the TR but hate to lock down.

[Geist]

People are making too big a deal of lockdown, first off is this game will be a huge improvement in terms of net code and game mechanics, and second, it wasn't that bad in the PS1. Lockdown was what made defense fun for me, point in the general direction of the door, have someone behind me repairing, and yelling "STEEL REHN STEEL REHN STEEL REHN!!!" :P

[Sifer2]

Lockdown can be made strong. In the Beta the TR MAX's were widely considered to be way overpowered in fact. Allowed them to lockdown chokepoints to a ridiculous degree. If they bring it back they just need to be considering how strong its going to be and design their maps around this. The power has to be worth being a sitting duck but at the same time can't completely control a part of the map an make it unable to be attacked.

[xSlideShow]

Think about it this way imo. Lock down can be pretty good, they already mentioned you can have 2 different guns on your Max. AV + AI? Lock down D you could handle anything. Or AA Lock Down with AV... Yeah you can't rush in like l33t Rambo Scatmax over there but you have a better K/D.

[kaffis]

Would lockdown suffice if it also regenerated armor? That would increase survivability (say 4 decis) while also giving lowered TTK in trade for movement. The goal is as always to make something that's not an unstoppable machine but a significant threat that takes skill to use.
So TR lockdown gives increased offense + defense mitigating its immobility? Great, does that mean NC can shoot through shields, too?

Trying to boost defense with lockdown steps on NC shield territory too easily, IMO.

[GTGD]

I can't believe the TR are STILL crying about "balance issues" after the JH tripleshot nerf, the lasher nerf, and all of the buffs they got over the years.

The lockdown ability wasn't meant to be an unstoppable "I win" button the way you seem to want it to be. Locking down in a vulnerable area is the equivalent of a scatmax engaging someone with a striker in the middle of a field with a large distance separating the two. The DC rips through both infantry and MAXes, and with a clip so large it can easily mow down an entire squad. The only penalty is that it can't move. It's not only a defensive advantage, but an offensive one as well. By holding the line, it makes it easier to push forward without giving up any ground. And what are you complaining about, the lack of the ability to move at a whopping 3km/hr? So you're asking for the fastest TTK with the largest clips while retaining the ability to move back behind cover?

Don't get me started on the Pounder or Burster. Isn't it enough the Pounder can rip through an NC MAXs' shield and armor before that NC MAX could kill it, even if it could shoot through the shield? How about the fact that it can hit around corners that the other MAX would be stepping behind?

Isn't it enough that the Burster can sit against a wall and take out any aircraft without warning who steps within his 120 degree field of fire in a couple seconds flat?


This complaining is coming from the same people who abused the Pounder as an AI MAX that could take out entire clusters faster than a Scat could point-blank. The same people whose DC MAX functioned the same as a 35mm cannon on a GG does for vehicles (except faster traveling).

[Graywolves]

I don't care so much that the TR Max is vulnerable when locked down.


It's that our MAX is horrible compared to the other two when mobile and they still have abilities to use against us.

And the DC can't beat any MAX 1v1 even when locked down, don't make false assumptions and press them as facts.

[Arkaiden]

A thousand times what GTGD said.

The last time I played this year TR MAXes were dominating everyone. They'd lockdown just behind a ridge and destroy all of the vehicles in a base more often than not with just three MAXes. And that's just the AV MAXes.

[GTGD]

When the DC is locked down, it has a .640 seconds longer TTK than a Scatmax at point-blank where every pellet from the wide spread hits.

If the Scatmax misses the equivalent of 2 shots (assured if combat isn't taking place at less than 1m away), its TTK jumps and becomes .360 seconds longer than the DC.


Interesting...it's almost as if a shotgun is more effective at close ranges, yet the shotgun becomes much less effective as range increases!

If you're asking for equal TTK at point-blank range between a chaingun and a shotgun, and then want to give the shotgun a huge disadvantage in longer ranges, you are out of your fucking mind.

As for abilities, NC MAXes gain defensive power in exchange for not being able to attack. TR MAXes gain offensive power in exchange for not being able to defend. VS MAXes gain some defensive power in exchange for some offensive power. In addition, TR MAXes can activate their lockdown ability at any time for any amount of time. NC and VS MAXes have to charge their capacitor from nothing and using their abilities drains it quickly.

[Trolltaxi]

Lockdown is/was awesome as it was. It was an advantege when you could position yourself into a good position (preferably with a cover infront and long range to the target). I know, I have always had the cert at least for the AA-max.

This special ability required teamwork to be on it's full potential. Our outfit had a pretty tough towerdrop technique with 2 maxes and the rest of the squad supporting them. I wish I could show you how effectively it worked, when 2 maxes anchored on the top of the stairs, fired the shells with 3 secs fuse, and whatever came we blowed that to pieces...

Or holding the gen with pounders, firing into the entry room with that console thingy... sweet memories.

Defending the AMP station CC from the outer rim. Holding a DROPSHIP BD from the sloope after the first junction with some repair on you... yummie!

Sometimes it felt so heroic! I remember a magrider chargin' on me, I made my stand, anchored down, Pshield on, dakka-dakka-dakka-dakka and it exploded almost on my chestplate! :) And I survived.

Same with mossies and reavers... You or me, bastard! MAXES DIE ON FOOT!

The ability was perfect, hands down. Lack of killing power without anchors (esp. for the DC) was bad though. But that is the problem of the design of the unit, not the design of the ability.

[SuperMorto]

Please don't call this an FPS, that is kept for other games, this is a MMOFPS, witch makes things a whole whole whole whole.......... whole lot different!

Morto,

[Redshift]

When the DC is locked down, it has a .640 seconds longer TTK than a Scatmax at point-blank where every pellet from the wide spread hits.

If the Scatmax misses the equivalent of 2 shots (assured if combat isn't taking place at less than 1m away), its TTK jumps and becomes .360 seconds longer than the DC.

This is the point exactly, you're now balancing a immobile locked down DC against a mobile scat, which is impossible, this is why the TR MAXes have been mostly crap forever. Either you balance the DC unlocked and accept it'll be fubar when locked down, or you balance it locked and accept it'll suck unlocked. The whole concept was trash.

i hope they just make the specials equipable and usable by all, all three of the MAX concepts had something which looked like it could be jumpjets so maybe thats the route they're taking

[SuperMorto]

The TR max lock down was almost the reason I joined TR. what a fantastic piece of kit. A mech suit you could pile into the ground giving you a steady base for some serious pounding!

Now you will see this from your point of view, im telling it from a Vanu point of view. I HATE YOUR MAXES!!!! The Vanu, which i have played for so long are not to bad but, I envy your guns and lockdowns. We can fly, but yea, its seems allays into the firing line of every soldier on the battle field!

The Vanu maxes are not perfect, so im not going to moan about them, as i think they site (if a little/very under powered) right in their place.

Its a good trait, keep it.

Morto.

[Bravix]

People who whine about the TR max lockdown need to quit trying to use it incorrectly.

VS max can jump around, which is great outside. Indoors, it's virtually useless. Which really leaves you with no special advantage. Balanced.

NC MAX shield is good everywhere, but you can't shoot. Balanced.

TR MAX can still effectively kill when not locked down, but becomes > then everything else in lockdown. Downside is that it can't move. Balanced.

So I'm a VS AV max. Can I kill a non-locked TR AV? Sure. Can I do the same if he's locked down camping a hallway? Hell no, I'm fucked. I don't even need to be in the hallway for him to kill me, his shots will bounce around the corner and mess me up real good.

The biggest complaint seems to be that TR Max's get Deci'd when locked down. Do you SERIOUSLY think that not being locked down will save you from the Deci's? MAX's are slow and easy to nail with a deci, especially indoors where a MAX takes up the majority of the straight hallway. All the enemy has to do is shoot it down the hallway and it will hit you, whether you're moving or not.

[Redshift]

I HATE YOUR MAXES!!!! The Vanu, which i have played for so long are not to bad but, I envy your guns and lockdowns.

You hate the TR MAXes because the ones you remember are the ones that are locked down in a defended room because that's what they're balanced around. You don't remember any of the ones that were walking around because they were fodder, there's a reason TR don't use MAXes to attack ;)



So I'm a VS AV max. Can I kill a non-locked TR AV? Sure. Can I do the same if he's locked down camping a hallway? Hell no, I'm fucked.
And that is exactly what i mean ;) fodder when unlocked too good when locked and camping

[GTGD]

This is the point exactly, you're now balancing a immobile locked down DC against a mobile scat, which is impossible, this is why the TR MAXes have been mostly crap forever. Either you balance the DC unlocked and accept it'll be fubar when locked down, or you balance it locked and accept it'll suck unlocked. The whole concept was trash.

i hope they just make the specials equipable and usable by all, all three of the MAX concepts had something which looked like it could be jumpjets so maybe thats the route they're taking

It's possible, and it happened. The DC will win the fight as long as it has a little breathing room, while the Scatmax will own extremely close range combat.

You're complaining about the TTK when the DC is not locked down and right next to the Scat, are you kidding me? Why on earth should a dual chaingun weilding MAX be as effective as a MAX with a shotgun up close, without the use of its ability? If they did that, it would have to be balanced by SEVERE damage degradation or accuracy (like the Cycler) at range. And then people would complain that it either is too weak or inaccurate at range, just like they did with the Cycler. Despite a couple of huge mistakes (JH tripleshot and lasher 2.0), the devs have pretty much balanced out weapons.

If they didn't make changes like that, the DC would have nearly the same TTK from point-blank as it would 50m away. Clearly the Scatmax doesn't have the same TTK. It's alternate fire modes which tighten the shotgun's spread have damage degradation AND slows the ROF down considerably. Not only would the DC be incredible at both short and long ranges, but the anchor would buff it even more! It would simply be unfair.

The DC is balanced just fine, both unlocked and locked. They even gave it a little boost with the Overdrive mode. Game elements don't need to be made common pool to be balanced, and nothing will be balanced in every situation. That's why you don't try to ward off a sniper with a shotgun, and why you don't bring a sniper into close range combat.

[Marsgrim]

Not enough objective opinion on here, and a lot of fallacy on the TR MAXes. Most people have never seriously played them that I can recognise here. The fact of the matter is a DC might be better than a Scat outdoors but all MAXes get owned by infantry with the right AV - Lancer, Phoenix and Striker will all waste an outdoor MAX.

A lockdown AV MAX is a silly idea outdoors as even the lightest tank can kill you before you can kill them.

The lockdown Burstar is only safe to use in a base, they are free BEP for any decent reaver pilot (as is the Sparrow).

The only MAXes really usable outdoors are the VS ones because of the jumpjet - the manueverability which lockdown obviously takes away.

If lockdown was so good, why was overdrive introduced?

Anyway, the crux of it is that it Redshift has hit the nail on the head. It doesn't matter how good you make lockdown, you are still a sitting and easier taget than any MAX with mobility.

More importantly, and what went wrong with PS1, is that you cannot balance the MAXes with lockdown. You either have to buff them stupendously in lockdown mode to ensure they can actually fulfil their function or you limit them and face the complaint that the lockdown is not worth it. If it is stupendously good in lockdown, you will have hordes of people who got killed by it in a second demanding a nerf.

Why not just give them 100% fire rate in normal mode and then keep the overdrive idea with 125% fire rate or something. It's far easier to balance this to appeal to most players than walk the line between something that fires 6000 man-eating T-Rexes a minute or a huge coffin.

[Marsgrim]

It's possible, and it happened. The DC will win the fight as long as it has a little breathing room, while the Scatmax will own extremely close range combat.

You're complaining about the TTK when the DC is not locked down and right next to the Scat, are you kidding me? Why on earth should a dual chaingun weilding MAX be as effective as a MAX with a shotgun up close, without the use of its ability? If they did that, it would have to be balanced by SEVERE damage degradation or accuracy (like the Cycler) at range. And then people would complain that it either is too weak or inaccurate at range, just like they did with the Cycler. Despite a couple of huge mistakes (JH tripleshot and lasher 2.0), the devs have pretty much balanced out weapons.

If they didn't make changes like that, the DC would have nearly the same TTK from point-blank as it would 50m away. Clearly the Scatmax doesn't have the same TTK. It's alternate fire modes which tighten the shotgun's spread have damage degradation AND slows the ROF down considerably. Not only would the DC be incredible at both short and long ranges, but the anchor would buff it even more! It would simply be unfair.

The DC is balanced just fine, both unlocked and locked. They even gave it a little boost with the Overdrive mode. Game elements don't need to be made common pool to be balanced, and nothing will be balanced in every situation. That's why you don't try to ward off a sniper with a shotgun, and why you don't bring a sniper into close range combat.


So many things wrong with your post....

Listen, the reason the DC should be compared to the Scat is because most combat takes place indoors in PS.

Outdoors is utterly irrelevant because the DC is going to get pulped by the first tank, reaver, phoenix/lancer user, liberator, heavy buggy, av max, BFR or fury that sees it.

Now if you feel differently and you want to prove a point, send me a tell in game, we'll squad up and you can spend a day trying to use the TR maxes.

Now PS2 will be different, but it's still going to have vehicles so the place to balance AI MAXes is indoors.

[Redshift]

Why on earth should a dual chaingun weilding MAX be as effective as a MAX with a shotgun up close, without the use of its ability? If they did that, it would have to be balanced by SEVERE damage degradation or accuracy (like the Cycler) at range.

Indeed and why should it have range? it's a weapon designed for indoor CQC fighting, the only reason it has range is because it used to be the AV MAX years ago. All AI MAXes should have CQC weaponary, if you're taking them out into the open you deserve to die fast and painfully.
But still the lockdown as i have said before can't be balanced.

[GTGD]

Not enough objective opinion on here, and a lot of fallacy on the TR MAXes. Most people have never seriously played them that I can recognise here. The fact of the matter is a DC might be better than a Scat outdoors but all MAXes get owned by infantry with the right AV - Lancer, Phoenix and Striker will all waste an outdoor MAX.

A lockdown AV MAX is a silly idea outdoors as even the lightest tank can kill you before you can kill them.

The lockdown Burstar is only safe to use in a base, they are free BEP for any decent reaver pilot (as is the Sparrow).

The only MAXes really usable outdoors are the VS ones because of the jumpjet - the manueverability which lockdown obviously takes away.

If lockdown was so good, why was overdrive introduced?

Anyway, the crux of it is that it Redshift has hit the nail on the head. It doesn't matter how good you make lockdown, you are still a sitting and easier taget than any MAX with mobility.

More importantly, and what went wrong with PS1, is that <b>you cannot balance the MAXes with lockdown</b>. You either have to buff them stupendously in lockdown mode to ensure they can actually fulfil their function or you limit them and face the complaint that the lockdown is not worth it. If it is stupendously good in lockdown, you will have hordes of people who got killed by it in a second demanding a nerf.

<b>Why not just give them 100% fire rate in normal mode and then keep the overdrive idea with 125% fire rate or something. It's far easier to balance this to appeal to most players than walk the line between something that fires 6000 man-eating T-Rexes a minute or a huge coffin.</b>

Overdrive was introduced to appease whiney babies that threatened to unsub from a slowly dying game.

The DC doesn't have to be outdoors to benefit from long range. Long hallways like ones to the tubes, a tech plant's v-bay, and the long part of an interlink/dropship center's basement are prime examples.

And of course you will get hoverspammed by Reavers from behind if you lockdown on top of a mountain. At the same time, you can camp air pads without missile locks, and your projectiles don't travel so slowly and become worthless if the plane breaks a lock for a second. And if the Reaver doesn't come from outside your lockdown angle, it is dead every single time.

Last and not least, look at the bolded parts of your post. In a few sentences, you have managed to completely contradict your previous point and defeated your entire long-winded argument.

[Krowe]

Overdrive was introduced to appease whiney babies that threatened to unsub from a slowly dying game.

Yes, THAT is what caused people to unsub/want to unsub. Not the many other near-broken aspects of gameplay

[Bags]

VS max can jump around, which is great outside. Indoors, it's virtually useless. Which really leaves you with no special advantage. Balanced.



Dodging decimators is virtually useless?

[Accuser]

But still the lockdown as i have said before can't be balanced.

Sure it can. The TR MAX is ineffective while not locked down, but super effective when locked down with more firepower and defense. It's very different than other MAX units, but different doesn't mean unbalanced.

In PS1, locking down in the -right- place gave an immense advantage to TR MAXs. Having cover made all the difference, and I seem to remember that PS2 will have more cover positions within bases than PS1 did...

[Redshift]

Sure it can. The TR MAX is ineffective while not locked down, but super effective when locked down with more firepower and defense. It's very different than other MAX units, but different doesn't mean unbalanced.

In PS1, locking down in the -right- place gave an immense advantage to TR MAXs. Having cover made all the difference, and I seem to remember that PS2 will have more cover positions within bases than PS1 did...

Ok so if the TR have to lock down to be effective how do we attack with MAXes?
you've literally just destroyed your own argument it's not balanced if it's shit when unlocked and uber when locked

[BorisBlade]

You could find ways for it to work, maybe when deployed, you gain a shield that negates a % of damage too, the shield takes a sec or so to activate once deployed to avoid exploiting it, but could be powerful enough to make up for being a sitting duck. Just needs tweaking. 50% reduction for example isnt too bad, its still so easy to hit a planted max its absurd, you'll waste far more than that reduction tryin to hit a flying vs max with a deci for example. But obviously the exact number would need testing to get it right.

But of course you would HAVE TO have the overdrive paired with it again since for example a scat max can use his ability offensively to push forward, or defensively. The plant is 90% defensive.

Between being able to totally redo maxes from scratch and the upgrade/sidegrade system, they have a pretty easy job of gettin it right or pretty dam close mechanics wise. Although ive seen vehicles get fubared so nothin is 100%. :P

[Traak]

Why not just give them 100% fire rate in normal mode and then keep the overdrive idea with 125% fire rate or something. It's far easier to balance this to appeal to most players than walk the line between something that fires 6000 man-eating T-Rexes a minute or a huge coffin.

The visuals on that are hilarious. I see a special event coming on PS2. DC maxes shooting 6000 man-eating T-rexes per minute vs: NC shooting giant coffins that open, swallow all personnel they run into before tumbling to a halt and the lid slamming shut. What a graphics solution you will need for that!

[DaSwede]

Lockdown can be made strong. In the Beta the TR MAX's were widely considered to be way overpowered in fact. Allowed them to lockdown chokepoints to a ridiculous degree. If they bring it back they just need to be considering how strong its going to be and design their maps around this. The power has to be worth being a sitting duck but at the same time can't completely control a part of the map an make it unable to be attacked.

Well in the beginning the pounder was the AI max as well and an arch so bad you had to aim for the sky to fight in open field battles :D
That was as futile as shooting a vanguard with a wet noodle gun.

However, get them indoors and the with the original splash damage and you could lock down a door easily using the secondary firing mode and keep constant nades exploding in the door.

[Accuser]

Ok so if the TR have to lock down to be effective how do we attack with MAXes?
you've literally just destroyed your own argument it's not balanced if it's shit when unlocked and uber when locked

I didn't say "balanced around attacking", I said "balanced". With a faster TTK, guarding your rear and flanks will be even more important than in PS1. Bring TR MAXs in behind your attacking troops and let them secure the rear and flanking hallways where you're vulnerable. The benefits when defending a base should be obvious. That's not inferior, it's just different.

[xSlideShow]

Honestly you guys can't really know if lockdown is going to be useless this time around untill you see what the terrain is going to look like.

Alot of the balance issues are do to lack of cover. All I've been reading is the TR wanting a max that does the same thing as the NC. It's a scatmax no one wants that. So the TR max is super great at D, Try defending as a Scat or worse a quasar with a low ceiling.

The whole point of different empires is different playstyles and stratagies, If you want a max that can lololol rush in and get 4 kills play NC this time around. Otherwise learn, adapt to your Empire's playstyle and quit complaining about how your MAX can't do everything the others can. They can't make wall.

You all sound pretty lame bellyaching about balance already when you don't even know how it is going to be implemented into the game. We don't even know what bases look like yet!

[Captain B]

We don't even know what bases look like yet!

Wrong! They look AWESOME!

Seriously, without the open railing on those towers (they seem to be providing way more cover this time around), I bet a locked-down TR MAX could do some nasty work to incoming infantry and vehicles from below.

[Graywolves]

1. Starting your post with "TR Whining" pretty much just makes no one read your post.

2. It actually is easier to defend with a scatmax or quasar....especially the scatmax...

Anchor down >> Get hit by deci >> unanchor and move/get hit again or sit there and keep pressing fire/die unless you have 3 repairs on you.



I've already stated problems in my post as well as others. Lockdown is cool and intimidating but it pretty much ends there. Please don't attempt to contribute to confusion and misunderstandings by saying "x is better than y" and then continuing your post through flaming.

And claiming single situations doesn't contribute either. 2 TR killed 5 VS hacking an NC base last night but it doesn't mean anything is OP or UP.

[Papscal]

You cannot seriously be proposing to keep the TR MAX lockdown. It doesn;t matter what has changed in the game design/engine, the fundemental rule of an FPS is stationary = dead.

The idea in PS was horribly thought out, incredibly poorly balanced and one of the universally agreed flaws - the DC has to lockdown to acheive the same TTK as a moving Scatmax, which has a shield to eat a deci. This is why the TR have comparitively fewer MAXes at this stage in the game.

The only way this is remotely viable is if they got significant shield/health improvements, but even then it just makes whoever is using it too easy a target.

Please, please, please, please reconsider. This is something I will bet now you get pleaded to change in beta - start thinking of the alternatives!!

Bullshit. I played TR from beta. And i did very well with the max units. It was similar to playing a sniper. You had to plan your attacks, execute and not stay i one spot to long. It was about stick and move and use of instincts in battle. The only thing horribly thought out is your game play habits and need for a rock paper scissors style of game so your feelings dont get hurt when you suck.

[Marsgrim]

I didn't say "balanced around attacking", I said "balanced". With a faster TTK, guarding your rear and flanks will be even more important than in PS1. Bring TR MAXs in behind your attacking troops and let them secure the rear and flanking hallways where you're vulnerable. The benefits when defending a base should be obvious. That's not inferior, it's just different.

And the TR AV MAXes do what exactly on offense if dependant on lockdown to be effective?? How do TR troops break down the defensive MAXes in front of them when assaulting a base if their own MAX iis only of use defensively?? What stops the NC and VS deploying a lot of MAXes in a base defense knowing the TR will struggle to counter them because their own MAXes are designed to be "at the back and flanks"?

It's all far too early to talk about as we don't know the detail of PS2, however my argument is about the concept of lockdown and lack of mobility and it doesn't matter how good the MAX is when locked down, it is such a situational ability that it will be of limited use given the risk involved.

[Baneblade]

Fuck balance, give me Iron Man armor.

[BlazingSun]

I hope this doesn't mean that we'll have to put up with the unbalanced flying MAXes again as well?!!! Don't make the same mistakes twice!

[Kalbuth]

I hope this doesn't mean that we'll have to put up with the unbalanced flying MAXes again as well?!!! Don't make the same mistakes twice!

You'll have flying infantry as well, on top of it, KD ;)

[Redshift]

Bullshit. I played TR from beta. And i did very well with the max units. It was similar to playing a sniper. You had to plan your attacks, execute and not stay i one spot to long. It was about stick and move and use of instincts in battle. The only thing horribly thought out is your game play habits and need for a rock paper scissors style of game so your feelings dont get hurt when you suck.

Call me old fashioned but i'd like my heaviest troopers to be the most suited to charging in first, what's the point of a heavy unit that can't charge in and break lines?

The fact that they sucked unlocked and lockdown was situational is why the TR didn't use MAXes to anywhere near the numbers VS and NC rolled.
Yes a defensive pounder is a beast but because of that TR MAXes sucked overall, you can't balance lockdown

[BlazingSun]

You'll have flying infantry as well, on top of it, KD ;)

I think I can handle those. :evil:

[moosepoop]

vs max- can fly and dodge decimator
nc max - can shield up and take direct hit
tr max - no defence, has to stand still to be effective

for survivability, tr maxes need a defensive bonus when locked down. maybe regeneration, armor bonus, etc.


personally, i think it would be easier to balance if you remove lock down, and improve overdrive.

[Kalbuth]

Call me old fashioned but i'd like my heaviest troopers to be the most suited to charging in first, what's the point of a heavy unit that can't charge in and break lines?

The fact that they sucked unlocked and lockdown was situational is why the TR didn't use MAXes to anywhere near the numbers VS and NC rolled.
Yes a defensive pounder is a beast but because of that TR MAXes sucked overall, you can't balance lockdown

I can understand it, but for the Burster case. Call me crazy, but after years of trying to use all 3 AA MAXes, Burster is the most efficient for me. The NC AA is simply a joke, the VS AA is usefull for scaring away, the TR AA is the one actually efficient at killing its prey.
In fact, of all my characters on different empires on different servers, the only one having MAX cert is the TR one, I enjoy playing them better than the others.

[Traak]

This reminds me of a good new voice macro:

Clear the firing lane!

[Tigersmith]

/facepalm.. Unreal

[Raymac]

Did this thread really turn into the Great TR Max Debate again? Why don't we just start talking about the Lasher while we're at it?

[Hamma]

About the lasher..

Damn thing!

[NapalmEnima]

Lock down is a rock-solid defensive ability. When you know the enemy is coming from That-a-way, TR MAXes can put all kinds of pain there. Not so handy for AA (though they could make the other empires PAY for hovering too long, particularly with no "lock on tone" warning) but great for AI indoors.

NC's shield always struck me as more of an offensive ability (particularly for the scatter cannon). Get in close relatively unharmed, then unleash hell.

VS's jump jets were more about creating options (and dodging to some degree). They could defend (AA in particular) or attack from directions other MAXes couldn't.

Edit:

Seems pretty balanced to me.

And while TR MAXes in PS2 will have the lock-down ability, T-Rays comment leads me to believe that's not the only ability they'll have (though they may have to pick one at a time, remains to be seen).

[moosepoop]

TR maxes have long range weapons, but their ability only allows for door camping. the concept is flawed.


either give large defensive bonuses to lockdown, or remove lockdown and buff overcharge.


the way some people keep claiming things are balanced to suit their own agenda, or out of sheer ignorance and stupidity, is disgusting. that should happen only in mmos, not planetside.

[NapalmEnima]

TR maxes have long range weapons, but their ability only allows for door camping. the concept is flawed.


either give large defensive bonuses to lockdown, or remove lockdown and buff overcharge.

the way some people keep claiming things are balanced to suit their own agenda, or out of sheer ignorance and stupidity, is disgusting. that should happen only in mmos, not planetside.


Speaking of sheer ignorance and stupidity... Planetside IS an MMO.

You're ignoring the "can't bedevil your opponents" option that some folks who have actually played all three types of MAXes still think they're balanced.

I happen to be one of them. I simply disagree with you.

Furthermore, I don't think the goal of lock-down is to let TR MAXes be vastly more effective at long range than other MAXes. It has that effect outdoors, but comes at a serious risk (getting horribly slain while stationary). It also increases your DPS significantly, at all ranges, including the shorter ranges where other empires' MAXes are effective.


And in PS2, I suspect you'll be able to train to improve the lockdown delay. A BR20 MAX specialist just might be able to lock and unlock in half a second or less (each). That's a pretty big deal. You might also be able to train some sort of "directional damage protection while locked down" thing, say half from the front/double from the back (when fully trained), as your armor/shields are reconfigured. We simply don't know yet.

[Kalbuth]

Since when did TR turn into VS crybabies?


(mind you, I'm an ex-VS crybaby)

[Redshift]

And in PS2, I suspect you'll be able to train to improve the lockdown delay. A BR20 MAX specialist just might be able to lock and unlock in half a second or less (each). That's a pretty big deal.

but they'll still need to be balanced either locked or unlocked, and you can't balance both unless there's something to limit the time it can be used for, which is pretty much where overdrive came from

[kaffis]

but they'll still need to be balanced either locked or unlocked, and you can't balance both unless there's something to limit the time it can be used for, which is pretty much where overdrive came from
That's like saying that NC MAXes have to be balanced either shielded or unshielded. It's absurd on its face. You balance them with the OPTION of locking down. Obviously, that option will be taken where it's advantageous, and not where it's not.

[Baneblade]

The only thing TR MAXes need is for the lock down mode to give them bunny ears and tail. Oh and a shield that works like the nc shield. But only actionable when locked down.

[Redshift]

That's like saying that NC MAXes have to be balanced either shielded or unshielded. It's absurd on its face. You balance them with the OPTION of locking down. Obviously, that option will be taken where it's advantageous, and not where it's not.

NC MAXes can't shoot with the shield up, it's also on a time limit, NC MAXes don't need to be balanced with a shield because it's use to cover distance.

TR MAXes have two different DPS's you have to balance around one of them, either you balance for the unlocked in which case lockdown is overpowered when it can be used or you balance for lockdown in which unlocked is gimped.

To make a balancable version of lockdown it would need to be instant, have a recharge timer and last a few seconds, allowing for a short increased DPS where it can easily be adjusted to keep TTK's similar

[NapalmEnima]

TR MAXes have two different DPS's you have to balance around one of them, either you balance for the unlocked in which case lockdown is overpowered when it can be used or you balance for lockdown in which unlocked is gimped.


OR you balance unlocked DPS against other MAXes, then balance locked down DPS with that whole "I can't move" thing plus delays to enter and exit that state.

So both are balanced: The regular DPS is balanced against other MAXes, AND the locked down DPS boost is balances against the extra vulnerability.

[kaffis]

Yup, Napalm's got it right.

[Redshift]

OR you balance unlocked DPS against other MAXes, then balance locked down DPS with that whole "I can't move" thing plus delays to enter and exit that state.


except what you actually get is ungodly powerful MAXes in certain situations and shit MAXes in other

[NapalmEnima]

except what you actually get is ungodly powerful MAXes in certain situations and shit MAXes in other

Q: In a base's hallway, where jumping doesn't matter, how is an unlocked TR MAX any different from a VS MAX?

A: One is purple, the other is red.

I didn't use NC's Scattercannons as an example here because they are great in close quarters, and fairly worthless at long range. This too balances indoor vs outdoor performance (or at least tries to, I think scattercannons could stand to be dialed down a notch at point blank and up a notch or two at long range where they are WORTHLESS).

[Kouza]

Don`t see a problem, the main problem with them currently is third person camping.

[Xyntech]

Don`t see a problem, the main problem with them currently is third person camping.

Can I just reiterate how awesome it will be to have third person camping gone?

It would still be cool if you could place spy cams to watch around corners. At least with those the camera could still be slightly visible and it wouldn't seem so exploitative.

[Graywolves]

Actually, VS Max can jump over TR Max in a corridor.

[MGP]

Lock down on MAXes was like holding a sign "Here I am, kill me!". The next second you lock down, you'll eat up a decimator and die.

[Malorn]

NC's shield always struck me as more of an offensive ability (particularly for the scatter cannon). Get in close relatively unharmed, then unleash hell.

Used correctly it was a great offensive tool, specifically for breaching a defended area like a CC, gen, or spawn room. Let the shield soak up the first deci/boomer while the max pushes forward, then once they wear down the shield unload while infantry use the max itself as a shield.

[Helwyr]

TR had the Pounder
NC had the Scat MAX
Vanu had the Starfire

Each had IMO the best of one category, although there were definitely circumstances where I would pick another, like the Burster over the Starfire for some Base defences. Lock down had some serious downsides no doubt, but it didn't automatically make the MAXes gimped.

The biggest disparity was with AI MAXes, those were only useful indoors, and at the ranges that fights occurred the Scat MAX was by far the best and the DC the worst.

[Traak]

Lock down on MAXes was like holding a sign "Here I am, kill me!". The next second you lock down, you'll eat up a decimator and die.

Eeeeexcept for that one day, my best kill ratio day ever, where Pele was the only blue spawn on cont, and the NC were trying to get off the plane pad.

And I had a giant AdvCE/AMS/Aegis nest up on the edge of the crater, and my TR AA max. Quite a few droppers died not long after exiting their drop pods.

Hate tell river. It was glorious. Don't tell me that lockdown sucks. For one day, in eight years, it was Awesomeness on a Platter.

[Marsgrim]

Q: In a base's hallway, where jumping doesn't matter, how is an unlocked TR MAX any different from a VS MAX?

A: One is purple, the other is red.

I didn't use NC's Scattercannons as an example here because they are great in close quarters, and fairly worthless at long range. This too balances indoor vs outdoor performance (or at least tries to, I think scattercannons could stand to be dialed down a notch at point blank and up a notch or two at long range where they are WORTHLESS).

Believe it or not the VS jumpjet can be used in a corridor and is a great way of avoiding/jumping over deci's.

@Traak the problem is you remember that one day out of 2920 days...

I was in the PS closed beta and I have used MAXes extensively over the years, although not a dedicated MAX player now, but the sad fact is everyone on here talking up lockdown remembers that one situation/day/event where lockdown was great and the countless other occasions where they locked down and got owned because it's blurred into one usage.

The majority of people advocating lockdown as fine don't play TR as it is and I'd be interested to see how many TR players saying it is ok in this thread actually play at the moment.

Further to all that, you've all ignored the fact that lockdown was so situational and pointless that the Developers had to introduce Overdire - that should tell you everything you need to know.

But the discussion is not about PS, the discussion is about PS2. If, as repeatedly noted by the developers, PS2 is faster gameplay than PS then that means that lockdown is going to be even more useless. Either because a MAX will die quicker in line with everyone else, or because the gameplay is quicker meaning that (however long lockdown takes) that second or so when you lockdown/become modbile is going to seriously cost you.

So,as Redshift is continually saying, you are left with a scenario where to make the lockdown worthwhile you make the lockdown MAX incredible - which means it gets nerfed in side 2 months due to all the complaints from everyone who gets killed by it.

The issue is NOT with PS, it's with how you learn the lessons from PS and apply to PS2 - where balance of the lockdown has been so problematic that it would be better to look at another ability.

[Gandhi]

I'm betting that every MAX will be able to have every feature, based on which certs and addons you opt for. Course everyone will probably opt for the jump jets then...

[moosepoop]

The TR max would be completely balanced with others if lockdown is removed, and overdrive is buffed to the same level as lockdown.

[Graywolves]

the problem with lockdown isn't that Lockdown itself gimps the MAX.


It's that our MAX's suck when not locked down and then when locked down we're on an even playing field with the other max's who can move, jump, and shield themselves.

[Raymac]

This TR Max debate has literally been going on since 2003. This horse has been beat so much that it died, came back as a zombie, died again, was reincarnated as another horse but was still-born, and still continues to be beat today. Leave Brittany alone.

[Redshift]

This TR Max debate has literally been going on since 2003. This horse has been beat so much that it died, came back as a zombie, died again, was reincarnated as another horse but was still-born, and still continues to be beat today. Leave Brittany alone.
Yeah!... it's not like we're in the design phase of a sequal or anything

[Kouza]

Actually, VS Max can jump over TR Max in a corridor.

Good luck jumping over my pounder in a long corridor. (If I use one.)

[Raymac]

Yeah!... it's not like we're in the design phase of a sequal or anything

Hey, if anybody is in favor of pure discussion it's me. But this thread has literally turned into the same tired debate that's been ongoing since 2003. I just think you reach a point of beating a dead horse when you get into minor detail balance adjusting when we are still a long ways out from beta. Just sayin. Carry on.

[Graywolves]

Good luck jumping over my pounder in a long corridor. (If I use one.)

It's been done. Auto-run, jump.

And there's not many long-corridors. An ability that only works in few situations isn't good.

[BorisBlade]

Guys, you are totally ignoring the fact that lock down can work just fine if its done right. No it wasnt right in ps1 but there isnt some law saying we cant change it, no one said we were goin to put it in just like ps1, you would have to be slow in the head to think that.

Like i said you have to adress its downsides, add a damage taken reduction % while planted to help with taking alot more damage, or some other way to help with being a sitting duck. Maybe a shield that deploys in a 180 arc thats waist high that blocks shots, or somethin.

There are a zillion ways to make it work and make it very cool, just saying "no it sux" cause it sucked in ps1 is just completely idiotic. And yes, overdrive must be in there too, lockdown cant be used offensively so overdrive fills that void (an alternative would work, but just needs somethin offensive and overdrive worked well for that).

[Kalbuth]

the problem with lockdown isn't that Lockdown itself gimps the MAX.


It's that our MAX's suck when not locked down and then when locked down we're on an even playing field with the other max's who can move, jump, and shield themselves.

Even playing field? LOL, exageration FTW!
Hard facts, plz. Like : Locked down Burster kill reaver faster than any other MAX. Same for Pounder vs armor.

"even playing field" .... :lol:

[GTGD]

TR, learn to form an argument and stay consistent on what side you are on:

1. Listen to the people who are currently playing the TR, as they understand how it is better than anyone else. Also accept that the NC were correct that the Jackhammer wasn't overpowered before the tripleshot nerf, and that it should be returned to its original power.

2. Accept that the people who are currently playing the TR are crying because their MAX isn't absurdly broken. The NC were crying when the Jackhammer was nerfed because then they couldn't instagib others.

[Graywolves]

Even playing field? LOL, exageration FTW!
Hard facts, plz. Like : Locked down Burster kill reaver faster than any other MAX. Same for Pounder vs armor.

"even playing field" .... :lol:

Actually all you need to do is position yourself in a good place with the VS AA Max and not target them until they are close or in another bad placement for themselves and you have yourself a kill.

Escaping the Burster isn't hard, Afterburn away, it's not like the flak locks on. Plus, I said with other MAX's. Taking something out of context and typing LOL isn't an arguement.

Your "hard facts" are severely lacking.

And let's not get started on the Jackhammer...

[Kalbuth]

Actually all you need to do is position yourself in a good place with the VS AA Max and not target them until they are close or in another bad placement for themselves and you have yourself a kill.

Escaping the Burster isn't hard, Afterburn away, it's not like the flak locks on. Plus, I said with other MAX's. Taking something out of context and typing LOL isn't an arguement.

Your "hard facts" are severely lacking.

And let's not get started on the Jackhammer...

You break a Starfire lockon by putting a simple obstacle between you and the Starfire. Once you get the beep, just rush the nearest tree, hill, whatever. You have time to do it even from a stop position. Which is not true when under fire of a locked-down Burster, if you are hovering at this point, you have less time to escape than vs SF.
Saying that "lock down" ability just put TR MAXes back on par with other MAXes is just exaggeration, Lock Down gives them more power than their counterpart. Exception being DC at point blank range vs Scatter, but it's only at point blank, and I can agree DC is not on par with other AI MAXes, no pb on that.

I can't find Tippis stats site anymore, everything you needed on TTKs was there. Showing that locked down TR MAXes had lower TTKs on their intended targets than their NC/VS counterparts
Not even talking about why I'm convinced that direct damage is better than a lock down system which is only good at scaring away people (and giving up your position), not actually killing your target.


You are not going to convince people by making things worse than they truely are. Personally, it just make me laugh and depicts TRs as the "new" (well, we hear about this since 2006 now) whiney Empire, thing that we VS were specialists back in 2003

[Redshift]

Saying that "lock down" ability just put TR MAXes back on par with other MAXes is just exaggeration, Lock Down gives them more power than their counterpart. Exception being DC at point blank range vs Scatter, but it's only at point blank, and I can agree DC is not on par with other AI MAXes, no pb on that.

Yes the main problem is that unlocked they are no where near on par, and that in certain situations lockdown makes them too strong.
We need all AI MAXes range to be similar to a scatter so they fit they're roll better, they all need to do similar dps. If lockdown is to remain it needs to be more like overdrive, on a capacitor and for a short amount of time, i'd find it acceptible to have essentially overdrive that roots you in place for its duration, that's balancable.

And this isn't by anymeans the only thing that needs looking at, i completly agree the VS need a HA that doesn't suck, and personally i'd say the NC need an AV that doesn't gimp them (half the zerg hiding shooting it at troops, is bad for the NC)

[Accuser]

We need all AI MAXes range to be similar to a scatter so they fit they're roll better, they all need to do similar dps. If lockdown is to remain it needs to be more like overdrive, on a capacitor and for a short amount of time, i'd find it acceptible to have essentially overdrive that roots you in place for its duration, that's balancable.

I'm pretty sure I argued for a lockdown that provided both a damage and defense buff earlier and you rejected it in a hurry. That's overdrive+root! I just think lockdown (or if you want to call it "overdrive+root") should be unlimited and not require use of a capacitor.

I think you're assuming that every AI MAX should have the role of being the first into a base, soaking up damage, and doing a lot of damage at short range. There's no reason for every AI MAX to function in the same way like that. I kind of expect the tradition to continue of having NC having the best MAX to push into a base, the TR having the best MAX for static defense and the VS having the most mobile/agile MAX which will hopefully be most viable outdoors.

[Redshift]

I think you're assuming that every AI MAX should have the role of being the first into a base, soaking up damage, and doing a lot of damage at short range.

There's every reason for that, we have a class system, if the heavy troops of one empire can not push forward we'll have a problem.

And the difference i've suggested in the lockdown is essentially putting it on a capacitor and making it instant, lockdown can't be balanced without a capacitor because it's essentially 2 different levels of dps, if you have a capacitor it is a short dps boost, it is very different.

[BUGGER]

The best part about lockdown was having three Rexo's with engineer certs behind you. That said, the best part about lockdown was that they'd repair you 5 times so you could kill one baddie. That said, the best part about lockdown is nothing.

Because you're trading off 100% of your mobility you should be giving that 100% of your mobility to either your guns or defense. Personally, i believe it should be both.

I feel the downfall to the TR Max was when they switched the Anti-Vehicle/Anti-Infantry Maxes around. An AI-Pounder Max surely had a chance in lockdown when his spray was an entire doorway, fear the ring of fire. But a Cycler Max was nothing. Shooting BB's with sniperrifle accuracy at speeds uncomprehencable sounds nice, but put him inside a zerged tower with choppy framerates and slight lag nerfs him to a freshly spawned zergling.

That said, either those Cyclers better shoot explosive rounds or he better turn into Fort Knox when he hunkers down in the doorway or I'm getting my greencard in the NC.

[NapalmEnima]

IIRC it was the TR punders that wanted the switch: too much grief. Splash weapons in close quarters inevitably damaged friendlies, particularly when some damned fool chased down your grenades and got themselves spattered.

But it's been a long time...

[BUGGER]

Yeah that was a big reason for the switch too. But that's what the grief system was instated for. I still get grief regardless with a Cycler Max when an idiot is pacing back and forth in front of me. But I feel that only happens because I'm not the nuke throwing Max and a player feels it is safe because a Cycler only throws peas. Regardless, grief is gonna happen, enemy kills may not.

[Xyntech]

It would be cool if there was an anti grief system, where the people who were always running in front of bullets and vehicles and into explosions of their empire wouldn't generate as many grief points for players.

Obviously it would need to be capped to a certain amount of reduction for each player, squad and outfit to discourage a group from singling out a random person to start TKing.

I guess we don't know enough about PS2's grief system yet though.

[Kouza]

It would be cool if there was an anti grief system, where the people who were always running in front of bullets and vehicles and into explosions of their empire wouldn't generate as many grief points for players.

Obviously it would need to be capped to a certain amount of reduction for each player, squad and outfit to discourage a group from singling out a random person to start TKing.

I guess we don't know enough about PS2's grief system yet though.

Yes lets further encourage people to not attack :) PLEASE.

(I was grief locked three times in planet side... Twice it was doing its job, the other was in an INTERLINK defending... With the Grief Grabbing Maelstrom. I have played on-off for 5 years)

THE GRIEF SYSTEM IS WORKING.

[Xyntech]

Yes lets further encourage people to not attack :) PLEASE.

(I was grief locked three times in planet side... Twice it was doing its job, the other was in an INTERLINK defending... With the Grief Grabbing Maelstrom. I have played on-off for 5 years)

THE GRIEF SYSTEM IS WORKING.

The idea is to avoid punishing someone for somebody ELSE running in front of them. Remember that this will happen a lot more when you bring in a huge batch of new players.

If you aren't paying attention and shoot me? You deserve some grief points. If you are shooting with the enemy directly in front of your cross hairs and some idiot with a history of running in front of friendly fire runs in front of you, you don't deserve to be penalized for it.

The grief system works, but it's not perfect. No harm in trying to improve it.

Like I said, for all we know PS2 handles it completely differently. I'm sure we will have a ton of people bitching about it if they did change it, no matter if it works better or not.

[Kouza]

The idea is to avoid punishing someone for somebody ELSE running in front of them. Remember that this will happen a lot more when you bring in a huge batch of new players.

If you aren't paying attention and shoot me? You deserve some grief points. If you are shooting with the enemy directly in front of your cross hairs and some idiot with a history of running in front of friendly fire runs in front of you, you don't deserve to be penalized for it.

The grief system works, but it's not perfect. No harm in trying to improve it.

Like I said, for all we know PS2 handles it completely differently. I'm sure we will have a ton of people bitching about it if they did change it, no matter if it works better or not.

If you find your having an issue getting grief locked a lot. Learn 2 Aim.

Like I said... I find getting grief locked VERY hard when using an actual gun... AOE weapons..... With more damage comes more grief. Thats your trade off.

[xSlideShow]

Because you're trading off 100% of your mobility you should be giving that 100% of your mobility to either your guns or defense. Personally, i believe it should be both.
You are trading 100% of your mobility to your guns. You trade not moving to full focus on aim, and you have increased accuracy.

I feel the downfall to the TR Max was when they switched the Anti-Vehicle/Anti-Infantry Maxes around. An AI-Pounder Max surely had a chance in lockdown when his spray was an entire doorway, fear the ring of fire. But a Cycler Max was nothing. Shooting BB's with sniperrifle accuracy at speeds uncomprehencable sounds nice, but put him inside a zerged tower with choppy framerates and slight lag nerfs him to a freshly spawned zergling.

That said, either those Cyclers better shoot explosive rounds or he better turn into Fort Knox when he hunkers down in the doorway or I'm getting my greencard in the NC.

I would be fine if the TR had a larger offensive buff when locked down. As far as damage. I also think that the faster TTK may help with this.

[Marsgrim]

If you find your having an issue getting grief locked a lot. Learn 2 Aim.

Like I said... I find getting grief locked VERY hard when using an actual gun... AOE weapons..... With more damage comes more grief. Thats your trade off.

Do you play TR? It's a genuine question because the DC and the MCG are both continous fire weapons requiring you to track the enemy with your crosshair.

Unfortunately a number of TR players have a habit of running in front of you to steal the kill. You can be the first person fighting or engaging the enemy - and maintaing your range if you know what you're doing - and some people will jump in front of you to get the kill whilst causing you greif because you're tracking the target.

[Kalbuth]

Same in all empires, Marsgrim. You have in fact more options for correct cross-fire with MCG than with JH

[2coolforu]

I think a lot of people are missing the point, MAX'es are required to have two roles

Attack/Breakthrough Assault

This is why the MAX has 650 armor + no health leakthrough, a MAX is designed to break through the camps on doors/bottleknecks where an average infantryman cannot sustain the DPS to defeat the enemy. The NC and VS MAX'es have abilities that makes them extremely proficient at this role, the VS MAX can jump over/onto walls, roofs, towers and attack from behind the defense line or from flanking angles which is an extremely powerful ability. The jump also allows it to dodge deci's due to lag/warping.

The NC MAX has a shield that when used en-masse (say a MAX crash) allows it to break through lines while sustaining little damage.

Now the important thing to note is none of these abilities provides a direct bonus, they are just versatility improvers. This is where lockdown is gimped, lockdown is required to reach DPS parity with the other factions MAXes however the MAX must sacrifice mobility to gain it, it also must sacrifice losing in a 1 on 1 fight with any of the other factions MAX'es (not including their special abilities) if it does not sacrifice mobility AND until recently could not fire while locking down (at least for the majority of Psides active 'true' life it could not fire during activation of lockdown).

Lockdown is not something you can use during assault, it effectively took you down to 0 DPS for a second and without it you would be defeated by any other opposing MAX easily. It also made you easy to flank and blocked friendly units behind you. The TR MAX ability denied its use as the primary role it should be filling, an offensive breakthrough unit. There's a reason why NC MAX crashes are relatively common and relatively sucessful in comparison to a TR MAX crash.

Base Defence

The defence role is also a useful role for MAX units, but not their main one. They are mainly pulled to tank DPS from the attackers and deal with enemy MAX units. The TR Lockdown is less gimpy in this role, but it effectively leaves you a sitting duck - softies ADADAD'ing near the door know where you are and can easily hit you with repeat deci's before you can react. The NC could use the shield to escape however the TR would be locked in place and still effectively on equal DPS par with the enemy MAX'es.

Anti-Air

In an anti-air role the starfire is considered the best AA for multiple reasons

1) It can jumpjet over Reaver rockets, this effectively allows it to survive a reaver surprise attack whereas a locked burster is doomed to flanking or even a close range reaver attack. The DPS of an unlocked Burster is so terrible that locking is effectively the only option which limits you to a very small arc of the sky.

2) Ease of use, the Starfire does not require much skill to use adequately whereas the Burster requires a lot of knowledge of target leading and the projectile speed. A noob can put up an effective AA defence with a starfire, not so much with a burster. And lest we forget the hilarious days where the TR couldn't hit beyond 300m leaving them sitting ducks for liberator raids.

[Kalbuth]

Faster, or instant with capacitor (I actually like Redshift's idea) lockdown like system would be usefull for your points 1 & 2, I'd say.

As for your 3, I already stated why I beg to differ. To me, Burster is the best AA MAX of all 3, hands down compared to NC AA MAX, probably more a matter of taste when compared to Starfire (ie, they are on par, just work differently)

(nota : you don't get DPS parity when locking down, you get better DPS)

[Redshift]

Faster, or instant with capacitor (I actually like Redshift's idea) lockdown like system would be usefull for your points 1 & 2, I'd say.


ta
As for your 3, I already stated why I beg to differ. To me, Burster is the best AA MAX of all 3, hands down compared to NC AA MAX, probably more a matter of taste when compared to Starfire (ie, they are on par, just work differently)



i beg to differ there though, the burster is good if you happen to be pointing in the right direction and are locked down already, unfortunatly if you're not you waste a second locking down and may have missed your chance. And you don't have the option of not locking down because a burster does no damage unlocked, i'm pretty sure it looses a straight up fight with a reaver by a pathetically large amount.
Starfire is superior massively.
Given the choice i'd make all AA MAXes similar to the sparrow and give planes the option to chaff to reduce the chance of some missiles hitting

[NapalmEnima]

...and give planes the option to chaff to reduce the chance of some missiles hitting

Higby has specifically stated that aircraft will have "countermeasures and radar signature reducers", that there was a lot of gameplay there he was eager to reveal.

Ah, I was close. From the "Mossy is a TR vehicle" thread:

Each of these fighters will serve multiple roles depending on how the player loads out the vehicle, you can configure any of them to be more air-to-air orientated, air-to-ground orientated, etc. You'll be able to change out afterburners to get more speed, or armor to get more durability, countermeasures, radar dampening, etc. We're working on a lot of really cool gameplay here, I think you all will be stoked and I can't wait to share a bit more about them soon! =)

Emphasis added.

Sounds to me like different missiles will use different tracking technologies, (heat, radar, visual, FancyTechnoBabbleThing, etc) and aircraft can be fitted with Various Devices to counter (to one degree or another) them.

The default ECM gear might be lousy-but-not-"nothing" against all techs, while various "side-grades" might specialize on a small cross-section, at the cost of dropping protection entirely against others.

TR pilot about to go into a TR vs NC fight:
"NC tends to use more IR and RADAR tracking, so I'd better go with the photon scattering suite". Which is great until some hot-shit air-2-air outfit shows up with a variety of different missiles (various particle detectors, maybe something that tracks your mass using super-sensitive gravity detectors) specifically to screw over min-maxing types like our TR pilot here.

Different engines might make you more or less exposed to different tracking techs. An anti-gravity drive might utterly defeat mass detectors, but gives off LOTS of excess heat, while cold-fusion charged air thrusters might run very cool but give off a lot of gluons or tachyons or something.

Ditto for armor/internal structure. SuperAlloy X might be tough as hell, but has quite a radar signature (by default... we have radar absorbent paint NOW), while the ceramic/carbon-nanofiber composite is lighter and has very little radar signature, but isn't as strong.

Lots of potential there.

[Wahooo]

Burster is more fun, and there is more satisfaction in killing with it.
Locked down a Burster has the fastest TTK of all AA maxes AGAINST UNAWARE AND HOVERING TARGETS, those people are dieing regardless so the exact TTK doesn't really matter much does it? Against real planes flying and ABing away at the sign of death? Not as much.

Lock down is a death sentence, hopefully you get a kill or three from people running infront of you in the mean time.

The pounder/DC debate is tough. AI pounder was frankly OP in the places it was meant for, like holding base doors and towers. However DC is a little underpowered in the same roll, but mostly due to hit-reg and warp issues. The ability for somone to srafe into a doorway loose a Deci and step back against a DC is silly and since there is no dodging at all it only take a few guys doing this to take them down. Against an AI pounder? Good luck even getting through the door, no chance. The improved accuracy of the DC simply doesn't help when people are warping back and forth, maybe with better netcode and not one world wide server that 3/4 of the population pings >150 ms to it would be a different story.

[Kalbuth]

i beg to differ there though, the burster is good if you happen to be pointing in the right direction and are locked down already, unfortunatly if you're not you waste a second locking down and may have missed your chance. And you don't have the option of not locking down because a burster does no damage unlocked, i'm pretty sure it looses a straight up fight with a reaver by a pathetically large amount.
Starfire is superior massively.
Given the choice i'd make all AA MAXes similar to the sparrow and give planes the option to chaff to reduce the chance of some missiles hitting

From my experience, if you're in a position where you don't have time to lock down and kill with a Burster, you're not in a position to get a lock and fire enough to kill with a Starfire either, or your orbs will be evaded anyway

[Kouza]

Do you play TR? It's a genuine question because the DC and the MCG are both continous fire weapons requiring you to track the enemy with your crosshair.

Unfortunately a number of TR players have a habit of running in front of you to steal the kill. You can be the first person fighting or engaging the enemy - and maintaing your range if you know what you're doing - and some people will jump in front of you to get the kill whilst causing you greif because you're tracking the target.

I am TR..... Learn to aim... Its ok to left off the left mouse button when in a fire fight.

[Redshift]

From my experience, if you're in a position where you don't have time to lock down and kill with a Burster, you're not in a position to get a lock and fire enough to kill with a Starfire either, or your orbs will be evaded anyway

Then you don't have enough experience, locking down took a second, thats 1 second longer to engage in every encounter, starfires and sparrows were instant. I can think of many occasions where the second wasted locking down let the pilot fly over or out of the arc of the burster (and thats another 2 seconds to unlock and lock again), that simply can't happen with the other two MAXes

[Wahooo]

Then you don't have enough experience, locking down took a second, thats 1 second longer to engage in every encounter, starfires and sparrows were instant. I can think of many occasions where the second wasted locking down let the pilot fly over or out of the arc of the burster (and thats another 2 seconds to unlock and lock again), that simply can't happen with the other two MAXes

Right, but not 100%. That 1 second to lockdown is the same 1 second the enemy plane is hearing a beep beep beep from a sparrow before lock on that lets them turn and burn away.
BUT once those missle are fired many, many places where you can't lose it around a mountain if you only have part of your AB left you get full damage from whatever was fired at you.

Starfire? If you were in the exact same place in a starfire as you were in a burster you are probably doing it wrong. There is a reason they are always in trees besides the ability to avoid some of the reaver rocket splash damage. Most pilots dodge AA by going low and AB away. A starfire already higher can then jump jet and be higher yet to keep lock-on and hold it long after a burster loses LOS.

[NapalmEnima]

Then you don't have enough experience, locking down took a second, thats 1 second longer to engage in every encounter, starfires and sparrows were instant. I can think of many occasions where the second wasted locking down let the pilot fly over or out of the arc of the burster (and thats another 2 seconds to unlock and lock again), that simply can't happen with the other two MAXes

You're ignoring the time between when their missiles lock on to when they hit.

The moment that alarm goes off, most pilots will get out of dodge. With a Burster, they have a chance to lock down and start Actually Inflicting Damage before the aircraft knows they're there.

The one disadvantage there is that a Burster can't use that alarm to chase aircraft away.

In my experience flack is superior to missiles.

[Redshift]

In my experience flack is superior to missiles.
Flak can be superior, i'm not denying that, a nice close hovering plane stands zero chance against a locked down burster, but i'm not talking about all those times ;) i'm more concerned about all the other times when missles are by far and away better.
The main problem with the burster is that it has to be locked down, and since it has to be locked down that makes lockdown a disadvantage for the TR MAXes, if the burster could actually kill a plane while mobile i'd not mind it one bit

[Kalbuth]

Then you don't have enough experience, locking down took a second, thats 1 second longer to engage in every encounter, starfires and sparrows were instant. I can think of many occasions where the second wasted locking down let the pilot fly over or out of the arc of the burster (and thats another 2 seconds to unlock and lock again), that simply can't happen with the other two MAXes

This 1 second is at the very least the time between 1st beep in pilot cabin and first hit. This 1 second is the one when he knows he's targeted and goes away easily.
In a burster, your target will not take any evasive action and won't know he's going to be hit.
If your firing window is that low that you cannot kill in a Burster, then it is too low with the others too, and they have also time to evade between first beep and last hit in this window.
I usually begin firing mid lock-down while having over-tracked target to get the largest arc of fire possible on the target route. I'm not getting a kill 100% of the time, far from it, but I deal damage.


Now, take a full fight as example, make it 2 burster, and 2 SF.
The 2 burster will hit and kill. No warning, just brutal damage from the start. The TTK from pilot reaction is very low.
The 2 SF will see their last orbs evaded and the target will live. Because of the initial lock + travel time, unless the target is right under SF nose (and it is the situatioon you described as the only way to get a kill with a Burster, btw). The pilot as the same lock-on + travel time reaction window for both SF, more or less. The damage stacking starts after this delay, this is what makes the whole difference.
Not saying SF is bad (the only bad one is the Sparrow), far from it, but Burster is at least on par. Jumping over reaver rockets is not everything, SF MAX's job is to actually kill :)
Ofc, in certain situation (SF over base antenna and such), SF is ultra annoying

[Aractain]

My Wish: Burster becomes a direct fire 20mm cannon, to go with my 4 barreled direct fire 25mm AFV and my single barrel direct fire 30mm cannon turret on my buggy.


Dreamsss.... Dreams can come trrrruuueee.

[Traak]

As cheats became more and more universal in the latter days of me playing, or my ping, or bad computer, or whatever, I could dump a fill clip from a Burster into a Reaver and watch it fly away.

This was at distance, however, and on my side it was massive ownage. On the pilot's side, it wasn't, however. What means was used to achieve this, however, I don't know.

[Redshift]

I usually begin firing mid lock-down while having over-tracked target to get the largest arc of fire possible on the target route. I'm not getting a kill 100% of the time, far from it, but I deal damage.



You're still missing the point, you have to lock down, that is a disadvantage compaired to the other MAXes which don't, their specials are actually useful they don't need them but if they use them they become more powerful, the TR special is a disadvantage to the burster since it has no choice but to use it since its dps is so bad unlocked.

My problem with the burster isn't the flak, it's the fact we are forced to lock down to work correctly, it's the same problem the other MAXes have you have to be balanced around either locked or unlocked you'll either be gimped in one or uber in the other, currently the devs have gone for the gimped when unlocked option.

[xSlideShow]

My problem with the burster isn't the flak, it's the fact we are forced to lock down to work correctly, it's the same problem the other MAXes have you have to be balanced around either locked or unlocked you'll either be gimped in one or uber in the other, currently the devs have gone for the gimped when unlocked option.

You don't know that.

[Kalbuth]

You're still missing the point, you have to lock down, that is a disadvantage compaired to the other MAXes which don't, their specials are actually useful they don't need them but if they use them they become more powerful, the TR special is a disadvantage to the burster since it has no choice but to use it since its dps is so bad unlocked.

My problem with the burster isn't the flak, it's the fact we are forced to lock down to work correctly, it's the same problem the other MAXes have you have to be balanced around either locked or unlocked you'll either be gimped in one or uber in the other, currently the devs have gone for the gimped when unlocked option.

Yes, and the other MAX must warn their target and wait before doing damage. If you point out flaws in TR MAX, point out the ones in the other MAXes.
Your lock-down time is the lock + fly time, difference being the ennemy is aware in the latter case.

In case of AA, things are pretty even. Btw, the "flaws" ain't present in NC/VS other MAXes, it's specific to AA. I'm specifically talking about Burster

[Redshift]

You don't know that.

i do know that.

TR MAXes have two states locked and unlocked since they're no limit on how long you can be in either you have 2 different dps's.

you can't balance two different dps's (nothing apart from dps changes, it's not like a trade where you may get more RoF and less accuracy, it's a straight up dps increase), you balance one and the other is either gimped or OP'd.

It's a problem that has been around since PS1 was released, it's the reason why the devs put in overdrive, overdrive lets them balance the locked state and tries to offset the gimpyness of the unlocked state.

If there was a system to make the locked state a temporary thing, so it just becomes a short term dps boost it would balanceable. Personally i'd make it instant, ramp the RoF right up and make the CoF (or whatever they use in PS2)bloom insanely so the effective range is 5-10 meters and make it last 4-5 seconds. Then you have an ability which is useful but the unit doesn't need to be balanced around (just like the NC and VS MAXes)

[xSlideShow]

i do know that.

So you've played the game? You haven't seen the TR max in action so you don't know if it's unbalanced saying it is gimped in one area just because it has lockdown... Is well... Dumb? All you can say is the idea of lockdown makes you feel uneasy about whether or not the TR max will be good. You don't know if the devs have had the foresight to balance out both modes. Or for all we know the Max might still have overdrive... I don't believe it's been stated that there won't be an overdrive or another special ability.

[Redshift]

So you've played the game? You haven't seen the TR max in action so you don't know if it's unbalanced saying it is gimped in one area just because it has lockdown... Is well... Dumb? All you can say is the idea of lockdown makes you feel uneasy about whether or not the TR max will be good. You don't know if the devs have had the foresight to balance out both modes. Or for all we know the Max might still have overdrive... I don't believe it's been stated that there won't be an overdrive or another special ability.

I've been playing since it was release 8 years ago...... i've explained why the current lockdown has been unbalancable.

If they copy and paste the ability from PS1 it still won't be balanceable.

Overdrive+lockdown was a bandaid hopefully they'll just make it work properly this time and they won't need to jury rig it, however that means not just copying PS1's lockdown.

[xSlideShow]

I've been playing since it was release 8 years ago...... i've explained why the current lockdown has been unbalancable.

If they copy and paste the ability from PS1 it still won't be balanceable.

Overdrive+lockdown was a bandaid hopefully they'll just make it work properly this time and they won't need to jury rig it, however that means not just copying PS1's lockdown.

I don't see why people think they are going to do this. They've changed a lot of things from PS1 already. They've even gone as far to change things a lot of people didn't see a problem with or were okay with it.

All that has been posted are being saying that it's impossible to balance lock down. Pretty sure it isn't. And if it is it will be removed.

Why would they keep the same lock down system as before when they are changing almost everything? This is not the same game and unless there is a problem with the mechanic itself then the idea should at least be implemented.

[Redshift]

This is not the same game and unless there is a problem with the mechanic itself then the idea should at least be implemented.

The mechanic itself is flawed, read one of the many posts in this thread where i've explain why.

[kaffis]

The mechanic itself is NOT flawed. Just because you feel (and I'm not taking a position on this either way) the benchmarks they chose to balance locked down and unlocked vs. other empires were not wisely chosen does not make the core concept unbalanceable.

[Redshift]

The mechanic itself is NOT flawed. Just because you feel (and I'm not taking a position on this either way) the benchmarks they chose to balance locked down and unlocked vs. other empires were not wisely chosen does not make the core concept unbalanceable.
ofc it's flawed, you have a weapon with two dps modes and no limitations on their use, imagine the MCG did double damage if you wern't moving, you have to pick one of the modes to balance the way it was in PS1

[xSlideShow]

ofc it's flawed, you have a weapon with two dps modes and no limitations on their use, imagine the MCG did double damage if you wern't moving, you have to pick one of the modes to balance the way it was in PS1

It's possible to balance both modes.

[Redshift]

It's possible to balance both modes.

ok tell us how?

[xSlideShow]

ok tell us how?

I don't need to, devs are doing it for me. Whole reason why I chose this side of the argument.

[Redshift]

I don't need to, devs are doing it for me. Whole reason why I chose this side of the argument.

They didn't manage it in the last 8 years.....
My arguement is the design as it is in PS1 doesn't let it be balanced and they should redesign it. I've given reasons and explanations.

You've said "Dev's will deal with it". You really have no arguement.

[xSlideShow]

They didn't manage it in the last 8 years.....
My arguement is the design as it is in PS1 doesn't let it be balanced and they should redesign it. I've given reasons and explanations.

You've said "Dev's will deal with it". You really have no arguement.

No I said the I'm letting the devs take of how to balance it. And that was pretty much a joke... Cause you see your on the opposition it's your job to come up with a reason for it to be changed... I need no evidence to support the role that it's fine... Cause it's already the way I want it.

All they have to do it make it so the benefits of locking down are a buff= the what your giving up. While at the same time making the unlocked down version balanced with the other 2 maxes. This is if they don't use their specials and you don't use yours then you are on par with them.

And please quit posting if all your gonna say is "easier said then done".

[Redshift]

No I said the I'm letting the devs take of how to balance it. And that was pretty much a joke... Cause you see your on the opposition it's your job to come up with a reason for it to be changed... I need no evidence to support the role that it's fine... Cause it's already the way I want it.

All they have to do it make it so the benefits of locking down are a buff= the what your giving up. While at the same time making the unlocked down version balanced with the other 2 maxes. This is if they don't use their specials and you don't use yours then you are on par with them.

And please quit posting if all your gonna say is "easier said then done".
Have you read the rest of this thread? i've mentioned plenty of ways of making it work. not once have i said it's "easier said than done", i've said it's impossible, which it is....

And it's not about buffing the locked down state till it equals what you're giving up, because like it has done for the last 8 years that makes it overpowered in certain situations and useless in others.

[xSlideShow]

Have you read the rest of this thread? i've mentioned plenty of ways of making it work. not once have i said it's "easier said than done", i've said it's impossible, which it is....

And it's not about buffing the locked down state till it equals what you're giving up, because like it has done for the last 8 years that makes it overpowered in certain situations and useless in others.

Which it should be "OP" in certain situations. That's what makes it a specialized weapon.

You misunderstand my words. So I'm not gonna reiterate them.

[Redshift]

Which it should be "OP" in certain situations. That's what makes it a specialized weapon.

If you think the best way to design a game is to make some weapons overpowered then you know jack. Waste of time talking to you.

[xSlideShow]

If you think the best way to design a game is to make some weapons overpowered then you know jack. Waste of time talking to you.

lol, again you misunderstand my words. I said it should be OP in certain situations. I didn't say every situation. Any good weapon is OP if it's used properly. Your just looking to flame at this point.

[Traak]

You really have no arguement.

You could say that to a dictionary, too. :lol:

[kaffis]

ofc it's flawed, you have a weapon with two dps modes and no limitations on their use, imagine the MCG did double damage if you wern't moving, you have to pick one of the modes to balance the way it was in PS1
Sure. Let me demonstrate the factors that can be tweaked to arrive at balance.

Locked-down field of fire -- 120 degrees? 45 degrees? 270 degrees? Adjustable to control how big a disadvantage the fixed facing is, and how easy it is to flank a locked down MAX.

Locked down rate of fire. This assumes you balance the unlocked MAX against other MAXes not using their specials, and then you can give and take from ROF buff and the various vulnerabilities lockdown imposes so that it is ALSO balanced.

Lock/Unlock time. Reducing the lockdown time obviously makes the ability more versatile, as well as making the overall MAX more powerful (remember, unlocked is balanced against other MAXes w/o use of specials) outright, increasing lockdown time will reduce the amount of time the average MAX is able to take advantage of the benefit.

There. That's 3 factors that can be adjusted independently (and none of which alter the balance of the unlocked MAX) to balance lockdown. And I spent 3 minutes on this post.

[Graywolves]

The Burster MAX's only advantage is it's speed and silence. It's not like the flak locks on to you. If you're hovering in place, you deserve to die. If you afterburn away and still die, you were either in open airspace with nowhere to run(deserve to die) or the burster max was really good/lucky in predicting your movement/leading you(deserves the kill).

I don't know why this is turning into something entirely about the burster max. A reaver can solo a lockeddown one no problem if he's not retarded. But oh that's assuming there's only one? There actually generally is only one.....

Getting more kills on complacent pilots doesn't make it the best. The purpose of the AA max is to keep the airspace clear. All of them do that fine.


Now get back into real MAX discussion.

Lockdown sucks.

[Kalbuth]

Someone dare say a TR MAX may not be poo, this guy must be shot, immediatly!!! Die, heretic, die!!! :D

[Redshift]

Sure. Let me demonstrate the factors that can be tweaked to arrive at balance.

Locked-down field of fire -- 120 degrees? 45 degrees? 270 degrees? Adjustable to control how big a disadvantage the fixed facing is, and how easy it is to flank a locked down MAX.

Locked down rate of fire. This assumes you balance the unlocked MAX against other MAXes not using their specials, and then you can give and take from ROF buff and the various vulnerabilities lockdown imposes so that it is ALSO balanced.

Lock/Unlock time. Reducing the lockdown time obviously makes the ability more versatile, as well as making the overall MAX more powerful (remember, unlocked is balanced against other MAXes w/o use of specials) outright, increasing lockdown time will reduce the amount of time the average MAX is able to take advantage of the benefit.

There. That's 3 factors that can be adjusted independently (and none of which alter the balance of the unlocked MAX) to balance lockdown. And I spent 3 minutes on this post.

Two of those make no difference because you can lockdown before combat and arc doesn't matter if you're pointing at a choke point, the rate of fire is all they have left and that's what they use now. Think about it they could make it a 5 min lock down with a 5 degree arc and you'd still run into one going through a door.
RoF doesn't work because it takes it back to the two different dps problem.

[xSlideShow]

Two of those make no difference because you can lockdown before combat and arc doesn't matter if you're pointing at a choke point, the rate of fire is all they have left and that's what they use now. Think about it they could make it a 5 min lock down with a 5 degree arc and you'd still run into one going through a door.
RoF doesn't work because it takes it back to the two different dps problem.

The two dps problem isn't really an issue. you can't balance two different dps's (nothing apart from dps changes, it's not like a trade where you may get more RoF and less accuracy, it's a straight up dps increase) The later of this is not true because,it is a trade off. You are trading your mobility for increased accuracy and ROF.

[Traak]

On a lighter note, how about a supermax that, if you work hard enough for it, can jumpjet up into space, lock down in midair, turn on shields, then equip a sniper rifle for OSK's?

Okay, back to the topic at hand... :D

I like lockdown, a lot. I didn't feel motivated to remain a Sparrow MAX, didn't seem productive. I think the number of people that choose a cert such as MAX, or sniper, or whatever, will indicate how OP it is. Along with kill ratios. Along with overall empire numbers. So, I am EAGERLY looking forward to the various empires' choices of weapons and weapon systems, because the fun of finding their weaknesses and working around them, and maximally using their strengths is something I love to do.

I could design F1 cars for a living. I don't have to ever drive one, I just like application of best available solutions to a given set of problems. And the various empires will come with advantages and limitations.

Lockdown FTW!

[Kouza]

You mad bro?

[Accuser]

Lock/Unlock time. Reducing the lockdown time obviously makes the ability more versatile, as well as making the overall MAX more powerful (remember, unlocked is balanced against other MAXes w/o use of specials) outright, increasing lockdown time will reduce the amount of time the average MAX is able to take advantage of the benefit.

This makes lockdown 100% balanceable. If you still don't like it, you'll just have to find a different empire.

If lockdown/unlock is only 0.5 seconds and gives a significant dps/defense boost, it will be very popular. Give it similar unlocked balance as other MAXes which aren't using their special abilities and you're set.

Yes it will be better for defense than for offense. Deal with it.

[razor851]

Lockdown is terrible compared to the other two empires MAXs abilities. Even so, PS2 is an entirely new game and we have no idea what any specific detail will be like in a game no one here has played.

[Boogster]

Just popping in to say that Redshift is right, of course. Lockdown is rubbish - mainly because it's useless when you're attacking. I hope it's been seriously revamped.

[Kouza]

All I want is maxes limited to BEING ON THE FUCKING GROUND. No jetpacks can lift your fat ass no matter how tight of Purple spandex you barnies seem to find your self in.

[Raka Maru]

All I want is maxes limited to BEING ON THE FUCKING GROUND. No jetpacks can lift your fat ass no matter how tight of Purple spandex you barnies seem to find your self in.

I do like using my AA against them when they fly. At least change them to aircraft damage when the feet leave the ground.

[Traak]

I do like using my AA against them when they fly. At least change them to aircraft damage when the feet leave the ground.

Make anybody who is bailing vulnerable to AA, also. So, when you bail from your mosquito, you can be locked-on, burst proximity-fused rounds, etc.

That would discourage those pilots from own-n-bail-to-own-some-more.

[Metalsheep]

As far as lockdown goes, the Pounder and Burster are fine, they put out sickening amounts of damage when they're locked down. The DC however is compleatly shafted. It cant kill anything when its not locked down, and the direct fire nature of it makes it useless when locked down, as someone can just pop a corner, shoot, and hide again. Making the DC eaither A: Unlock and run away. Or B: Sit there and die to the next two decis. Eaither way, the DC is now out of the fight.

I think that BOTH Overdrive and Lockdown should return, but when the TR MAX locks down, its Capacitors meter turns into a shield or some kind of damage dampaning field that drains when struck by weapons. This could give the DC boosted defese when locked down to make up for its immobility, without giving it extra armor. You could still lock down any time, but if you want the boosted defense, you need to make sure your capacitor is charged. And in choosing to lock down and take the Shielding, you cant just unlock and go into Overdrive right away.

[Helwyr]

All I want is maxes limited to BEING ON THE FUCKING GROUND. No jetpacks can lift your fat ass no matter how tight of Purple spandex you barnies seem to find your self in.

Sure if Aircav can't hover and have to wear flight suits that are the equivalent of PS1 standard armor, and when they bail they're immobilized for at least 15 seconds on the ground before being able take any actions.

I mean seriously the balance between Aircav and AA MAXes in PS1 was pretty awful. Granted inside a base surrounded by friendlies all AA MAXes were good, and the Burster in some cases the best. However, outside of that the AA MAXes were easily dispatched by their supposed prey. Except the Starfire because it could jump out of Reaver rocket spam or Jump into Tree tops where rockets were less effective. Even in the event the AA MAX shoots down the aircraft, it still hasn't won. Aircav gets to pull the ultimate trick from their sleeve and rise anew from the ashes of "paper" in the form of "Rock" by virtue of bailing as a HA/AV infantry at full health. Post nerf no AA MAX is winning that fight, and a locked down Burster doesn't even have the option of running away.

[acosmo]

forgive for necro but this is probably the most badass usage of lockdown ever @30 seconds
Planetside - Max Pain - RenEvo Epoch - YouTube

if i can do this shit in ps2 then i'm all for keeping it

[Azren]

Lockdown was so much fun at launch. You know, that time when not every single foot zerg ran around in rexo with AV on it's back? Yea...

It's not the lockdown that's broken.

[UlfStein]

So after sitting here reading all the comments, I've come up with several conclusions and several points, none of which can be considered revolutionary by any means, but i'd still like to voice my opinion on the subject. I will try to explain my points in a top down fashion with a general overview of my philosophies concerning war and the functions of the maxes before finally focusing on the lockdown ability in regards to planetside 2.

The first point is that for the nature of this topic we really should neither be fighting over which would be superior in max on max combat with the except of the anti-vehicular variety as these are otherwise not the functions of the other maxes nor should we dwell excessively on the detail or the number crunching of each loadout as we cant expect to have exact replicas of these maxes in planetside 2. What would be considerably more important is whether or not they are effective in their current role and how they could be improved upon, changed, or reiterated in PS2.

Each max and respective varieties have a job or function they are expected to perform. Some are inately better than others in specific situations due to their specific functionality as several have stated. For example, a scatmax is, in my mind, far superior to a DC or VS AI max in regards to bum rushing a base even without its shield, and yet, even though a VS AI max can to a lesser extent fill the same role, it really shines in regard to bypassing obstacles to complete a specific objective. Likewise, the DC shines at being able to hold key points from a larger distance while still retaining the ability to mediocrely bum rush a base. Although each of these maxes are capable of taking out infantry and bum rushing a base as a baseline, their abilities and armaments make them shine in specific situations. As their specific functions are considerably different, their ability to kill or TTK ratios are an unfair accessment of their actual worthiness unless one is a K/D whore.

In regards to Anti-aircraft, experience has taught me that a burster bunkered down has the best chance of destroying enemy air craft and that a tree born AA VS max can do a great job in that department as well. Though one of them in my mind is substantially better at destroying aircraft, without their special abilities, each of these maxes are still able perform their baseline role which is to be able to deter aircraft away which is in my mind their primary purpose, killing is just an added bonus. My personal regards to war is that it is better to maim or incapacitate an enemy in the heat of battle rather than to destroy them. In regards to FPS, unless I am certain I can kill my target or my side is making considerable headway, it is more effective imo to pin down a target and exhaust their resources and the time it takes them to resupply than to waste my resources to guarrentee they respawn at full capacity. This is more so true for planetside than other fps games because planetside is not won solely on kill count nor specifically bound to a time limit so, to me, bunkering down is not an absolute necessity for a burster to be successful; neither is a Sparrow's shield for that matter, especially if the sparrow never gets hit, so to me the overall feeling is that they are balanced per their actual role.

Aside from the fore mentioned philosophies on fps combat which adds a weight of bias to my arguement and my philosophy on max worthiness, I feel that the lockdown function would be a great if not better ability in Planetside 2 than it is now, and I have several reasons that I feel supports my claim. For starters, unlike in Planetside 1, not everyone and their brother is going to be equipt with deci's and AV to ravage a bunkered down max or be equipt with medical equipment to shrug off the damage a max may do as the class system for Planetside 2 from what we've been told prohibits this. Second, and this is purely based off of speculation, but despite the fact that PS2 maybe more lethal than our current game, the maxes being an unlockable item wouldn't make it unreasonable to suspect that the max suits will be much more proportionally tougher in comparison than a normal foot soldier than what we are use to, not to mention the lethality also counts against the foot soldier as readily as it does the max; especially since as I mentioned before that not everyone will be equipt with med guns and decis. Lastly though, and most importantly, it has been noted extensively that there will be substantially more cover available in PS2 which may increase the effectiveness of bunkering via protection or further nullifiy the disadvantage of being stationary.

I realize that this topic fell on the wayside a few months ago and that my message may be too long to read for the average reader, but i still feel that this topic is essentially relevent considering that PS2 is along the way, and worth delving further into as long as we likewise keep the topic relevent to developement of PS2 instead of arguing over the current mechanics found in PS1.

[Snowfake]

Lock down may have worked on paper but the truth of the matter is that it's just not practical at all.
With the games net code it is too easy for soemone to just pop in and out of cover to fire a deci. Infact in any shooter it has been a basic tactic for years to strafe in and out of cover as quickly as possible aganist a target because it makes you really damn hard to hit.
When the pounder was the AI max its splash damage would level the playing fields some.
Even if it was good for defence, you dont take bases by sitting in corridors! Max's are meant to be base tanks not bunkers, they lead the way and the softies all get behind them.
Fuck if they want to make it so TR max's need to be used in team work, give us a big bubble shield so we can protect everyone around us instead of a quick firing gun.

[Graywolves]

If Lockdown is supposed to make a TR max excel at defending a position then every soldier on ground shouldn't excel at destroy the locked down max with minimal effort and damage. Especially when other max's manage the exact same job and take less damage doing it and can even move and shield themselves.

[Effective]

What the hell are you guys talking? Lockdown is and was awesome.

No it has never been awesome.

D
E
C
I
M
A
T
O
R

B
A
I
T

Max lockdown = free kill for semi intelligent players.

[UlfStein]

Even if it was good for defence, you dont take bases by sitting in corridors! Max's are meant to be base tanks not bunkers, they lead the way and the softies all get behind them.
Fuck if they want to make it so TR max's need to be used in team work, give us a big bubble shield so we can protect everyone around us instead of a quick firing gun.

its a common stradegy in rts to take enemy territory by leap frogging bunkers, the same can be done in planetside as one has already mentioned on this thread. A TR DC max can still open the door for softies, but instead of charging forward after the brunt of the attack it can bunker down and lay suppressive fire defending to the corridoor of attack so that the softies can move in and take position for the max can repeast the process to move on to the next area. This fits the TR ideology better because it is more professional to do than bum rushing and relying on momentum that the NC max and ideology endorses.

If Lockdown is supposed to make a TR max excel at defending a position then every soldier on ground shouldn't excel at destroy the locked down max with minimal effort and damage. Especially when other max's manage the exact same job and take less damage doing it and can even move and shield themselves.

Exactly, PS2's class system is a way to ensure that every ground soldier does not excel at taking down a stationary max, which is why lockdown may be more potent in PS2.

[SKYeXile]

Lockdown is terrible compared to the other two empires MAXs abilities. Even so, PS2 is an entirely new game and we have no idea what any specific detail will be like in a game no one here has played.

Seems like so many people here have played it already though.

[Shade Millith]

I enjoyed the lockdown. If it's in a situation that an enemy can Deci/hide you, then don't lockdown. You've still got a good TTK without it.

Lockdown is a damage boost, not a necessity.

[Redshift]

I enjoyed the lockdown. If it's in a situation that an enemy can Deci/hide you, then don't lockdown. You've still got a good TTK without it.

Lockdown is a damage boost, not a necessity.

WTF game were you playing?

[Punker]

I for one like lockdown. So much easier to hit them when they aren't moving.

[Graywolves]

I enjoyed the lockdown. If it's in a situation that an enemy can Deci/hide you, then don't lockdown. You've still got a good TTK without it.

Lockdown is a damage boost, not a necessity.

WTF game were you playing?


TTK without lockdown ins PS was complete crap. You could kill people faster with a sweeper.

[Metalsheep]

TTK without lockdown ins PS was complete crap. You could kill people faster with a sweeper.

The sweeper also has a TTK thats is nearly on Par with HA weapons which only the SplatMAX can do without special abilities.

I like the idea of TR's lockdown, and in PS2 not every soldier on the field will be carrying AV weapons so i think the lockdown ability will be MUCH better this time around. As far as we know, only the HA guys get the AV weapons, and even then they may have to take ONLY their AV or HA weapon, not both. A Heavy may have to choose weather he can fight MAX's or Softies.

Now you will probably have to fight a MAX the hard way, with teamwork and tactics. And Since as far as im aware, you have to unlock MAXs in the Heavy tree somewhere, there wont be a surplus of them eaither. Making them both high value for both friendlys to protect/maintain, and enemies to destroy.

[SKYeXile]

The sweeper also has a TTK thats is nearly on Par with HA weapons which only the SplatMAX can do without special abilities.

I like the idea of TR's lockdown, and in PS2 not every soldier on the field will be carrying AV weapons so i think the lockdown ability will be MUCH better this time around. As far as we know, only the HA guys get the AV weapons, and even then they may have to take ONLY their AV or HA weapon, not both. A Heavy may have to choose weather he can fight MAX's or Softies.

Now you will probably have to fight a MAX the hard way, with teamwork and tactics. And Since as far as im aware, you have to unlock MAXs in the Heavy tree somewhere, there wont be a surplus of them eaither. Making them both high value for both friendlys to protect/maintain, and enemies to destroy.

Who says you will need AV weapons to kill a MAX in PS2?

[Metalsheep]

Who says you will need AV weapons to kill a MAX in PS2?

Do you want to fight a MAX without an AV weapon? I hope you cant easily kill them with standard weapons fire. With all that armor, they should be able to take a beating. Now, an organised squad/group could take own down without AV sure. But i don't think, 1v1, someone with a standard weapon should win against a MAX unit. Especially now that MAX unit population will be controlled by HA specialists who chose to become MAXs.

Though im sure if they're making PS2 like more modern shooters. Most class loadouts will come with some kind of Grenade weapon which can be useful against MAXs. (I hope the Jetpack class does not have grenades. Anyone who has played Halo:Reach will know how lame it is for someone to Jetpack and then rain grenades on your head.) So players all wont be totally defensless.

[SKYeXile]

Do you want to fight a MAX without an AV weapon? I hope you cant easily kill them with standard weapons fire. With all that armor, they should be able to take a beating. Now, an organised squad/group could take own down without AV sure. But i don't think, 1v1, someone with a standard weapon should win against a MAX unit. Especially now that MAX unit population will be controlled by HA specialists who chose to become MAXs.

Though im sure if they're making PS2 like more modern shooters. Most class loadouts will come with some kind of Grenade weapon which can be useful against MAXs. (I hope the Jetpack class does not have grenades. Anyone who has played Halo:Reach will know how lame it is for someone to Jetpack and then rain grenades on your head.) So players all wont be totally defensless.

no modern shooters require you to have AV to take down something that resembles a MAX.

Heavy in TF2
Assault in GA
Exo in Nuclear Dawn.

there's an argument that they may more resemble assaults than MAX's sure, but they have said they're not brining back AP rounds, i doubt they will want everybody travelling around with a assault AV loadout or a MAX AV to take down maxes. for that reason im going to presume maxes are more vulnerable to small arms fire.

I have no doubt though that they can still take a beating.

[Talek Krell]

Setting aside that none of those resemble a MAX, there's a lot of things that no modern shooters do. Having hundreds of people on continent sized maps for example. I don't think we necessarily have to be copying them on this.

[SKYeXile]

Setting aside that none of those resemble a MAX, there's a lot of things that no modern shooters do. Having hundreds of people on continent sized maps for example. I don't think we necessarily have to be copying them on this.

yes those slow moving things with lots of HP and armour, with close range full auto weapons don't resemble maxes at all, nope, no sir.

[Metalsheep]

In TF 2 at least, the heavy is only tough if he has a medic buddy. The Soldier,Demo Man, Sniper or Spy can easily kill the slow moving Heavy, even though he has high HP.

Most Modern Shooters have a need for an AV class because you cant hope to damage an Armored Target with regular weapons. Vehicles are the easiest example, and when i think of a MAX, i think of them more as indoor tanks. They're great for fighting. They can take a beating and dish it out, but without people to maintain it, it is vulnerable and short lived against AV or squads. The MAX sacrifices everything else for pure firepower and armor. And now that you have to specialize into the Heavy tree to even get one, they will be rarer units on the battlefield. Being able to simply take one down with small arms dosent make the MAX attractive at all. A Jetpacking soldier could kill one easily then, since the MAX cant match the high speed and movement capabilities of that class. It would be like Surgile again. A MAX couldnt rotate anywhere near as fast as a solider could circle him. So he'd die even to small arms.

If they DO make MAXs more vulnerable to small arms fire, i hope they can move and rotate faster than they could in PS. Though then we have the same problem with Lockdown, since he'd be vulnerable to small arms fire, hes just a sitting duck now to everyone, not just AV users.

[Knocky]

no modern shooters require you to have AV to take down something that resembles a MAX.


Higby: Haha, three empire specific HA weapons per empire. Cool tidbit: HA class does both anti-infantry and anti-vehicle based on loadout



So....no Deci needed maybe?

[SKYeXile]

So....no Deci needed maybe?

exactly what im saying, if a MAX requires AV to be taken down it would need to be taken down by an assault carrying AV or a MAX with atleast 1 arm as AV(there is no confirmation than and engineer will carry AV). I dont see it been practical.

[CplVars]

The only place I see/saw Locking down was a problem was with the DC MAX. The Pounder and Burster were great. Those were the only MAXes I used because they were effective in what they did. Hell the Pounder is like the ultimate BFR hunter as well. Lost track of how many BFR kills I got with the Pounder that didn't take any time at all because Locked Down Pounder = dead BFR in like...what 10-15 secs? If that? The Burster was awesome because getting hit by flak can be a real shock cuz its like "do do do do *minding my own business* and then BAM BAM BAM OH FUCK *Afterburn away!*" To me Flak is the ultimate AA because you don't even have to have LOS on the aircraft to hit it. Lost count of how many aircraft I destroyed because they thought they could hide/hover behind a hill. But I digress, the point is that the DC sucks. Or it did last I played like a year ago (trashcanistan has that effect on you). Anyway, 1v1 indoors the DC MAX is gonna lose to a ScatMAX and um whatever the VS AI MAX is called (Quasar?). Locking down doesn't help you. NC MAX shields up and gets in close; the VS MAX switches to AP laz0rz and bam you've got a dead DC MAX. Yes you will put hurt on them and they will probably need to get repaired before they can take a Deci hit, but my point is that I have *never* seen a DC MAX win a MAX duel. I've done it plenty of times in a Pounder MAX Locked and Unlocked, the ability to fire while locking down really helped Pounders in indoor MAX duels IMO.

While still on the MAX vs MAX train of thought, the Burster is also the worst, even when locked down, when fighting the other AA MAXes (which, oddly enough, occurs more frequently than one would think).

Just my 2 cents.

[Hmr85]

Yeah, Please give the TR lock down again. It made it easy for me to work on my badges. If they have them in PS2 I should be platinum in no time.

[LordHumungusXOX]

TR MAX lockdown is an absolute Love/Hate beast. It looks cool as hell but in reality it is so hard to justify. I think making the Maxes beltfed or raising the firing rate to an absurd level is really the only way to compensate. By following the rule of the best defense is a good offense, the TR Max could stand a chance. If they duplicate its PS1 state, it will be a craptastic MAX all over again.

[Effective]

Lockdown = free kill = end of argument. The ROF increase will always be too much or too little. There is no middle ground. TR maxs need something different then lockdown. Something that enables them to be able to push key locations and be as useful as other max units.

[Erendil]

TR MAX lockdown is an absolute Love/Hate beast. It looks cool as hell but in reality it is so hard to justify. I think making the Maxes beltfed or raising the firing rate to an absurd level is really the only way to compensate. By following the rule of the best defense is a good offense, the TR Max could stand a chance. If they duplicate its PS1 state, it will be a craptastic MAX all over again.

Pretty much this. PS1 lockdown was devastating in the right situations (gen/cc holds, BD defense, Air Cav ganking) but it was too situational. Shields and Jumpjets were way more versatile - which is fine for the VS since that's their strategic approach, but in PS1 it made TR MAXes subpar overall until they got the capacitor as well.

However, given that we currently have instant vehicle boarding/exiting in PS2 I can see where they'd put in instant lockdown as well. Not saying I agree with that concept but it is a possibility.

That said, we know almost zilch about how MAXes will behave in PS2 nor what other unlocks/special abilities they may or may not have, so the idea that TR MAXes will have lockdown means pretty much nothing in terms of balance at this point.

[Princess Frosty]

The problem with the TR max was that locking down was clearly to be used for being more defensive, area denial to incoming troops, what it resulted in was a great deal of "Deci popping" where Rexos would peek around a corner for 1/10th of a second, dumbfire a Decimator and then pop back in to cover taking next to no damage.

Hitting a very large, stationary target is really easy, especially if you have prior knowledge of where they are, so the benefit awarded to the TR max should have been greater.

Ideally their anti-infantry should have been better at corners, deci-popping wouldn't be an option if you fired small rockets which had splash that went around corners, that would significantly increase risk for people trying to dance at corners with anti armour weapons.

This is why the Anti-vehicle MAX was used indoors so frequently because it could lock down and set the grenades to bounce and then fire around corners causing much more effective area denial. You know you've done something retarded when the empire tends to use AV MAXes indoors in preference to AP MAXes.

To top it off the TR AA MAX was the only empire AA to require any kind of skill to lead compared to simply locking on and fire/foget, overall it made the TR much weaker unless they were deployed in very specific formations with supporting cover, some of the back door drops we did with Ostekakes crew worked well but they were highly organized and in a game with hundreds solo players that sort of requirement for one empire but not on others is a bit of a killer, and Werner showed that in the daily numbers where the TR were stomped constantly.

[LordHumungusXOX]

Yes, decipopping is a big reason the TR maxes really suffered from lockdown. Plus the ridiculously long animation to get your fat ass up and pull the spikes out of the ground. You're usually dead by the time the animation is done.
The fatsuit is awesome but I think they botched it bigtime when they added 40 round clips, then a capacitor, then stealth buffed the already very versatile and powerful Reaver(though the Reaver's former grunt spamming abilities were the reason to camp the living shit out of them to begin with). They should have left well enough alone, but oh well.
Lockdown would need to be quicker and be sheer death to anyone in front of it. Everything in game needs a weakpoint and getting behind one should be it. The majority of the playerbase would prefer some other MAX ability and it would probably be better to ditch lockdown because the only way to make it feasible is to overdue its offensive capabilities(which will never happen).

[Metalsheep]

Ideally their anti-infantry should have been better at corners, deci-popping wouldn't be an option if you fired small rockets which had splash that went around corners, that would significantly increase risk for people trying to dance at corners with anti armour weapons.

This is why the Anti-vehicle MAX was used indoors so frequently because it could lock down and set the grenades to bounce and then fire around corners causing much more effective area denial. You know you've done something retarded when the empire tends to use AV MAXes indoors in preference to AP MAXes.


Once upon a time, the Pounder actually WAS the TRs AI MAX and the DC was the AV MAX. If i remember correctly, the Pounder was super overpowered against infantry, and generated a ton of grief for the user. And the DC just tickled vehicles. They were switched at some point, i don't remember when exactly.