Style vs. Reason - wear & tear on equipment textures, or "Why spawn broken stuff?"

[FIREk]

INTRODUCTION
I'm a bit of a "fluff n*zi" about most of the things I like and PlanetSide is one of those things. I assumed that, since we will be using resources to get stuff, then perhaps that stuff won't be magically constructed by nanites anymore. Then comes "Nanite Systems" and T-Ray's recent tweet "nanites baby nanites".
The latter even suggests (massive conjecture) that vehicles won't come out of the ground (from an assumed manufacturing station) but will likely spawn on the pad, formed by nanites.


THE QUESTION
Since respawning is rationalized, and soldiers are expected to die often and be reborn with new equipment, auto-magically rematerialized with nanites, why should the TR equipment show some wear, and the NC's equipment be "chipped, dented but never compromised"?


ADDITIONAL COMMENTS
When I first saw the TR and the NC in the trailer, the NC looked like a proper military, with their Land Warrior/Future Soldier-style weapons and equipment. Even in PS1, I never thought of them as a rag-tag band of hippies with guns - if they were, they wouldn't be using guided weapons and fancy-looking tanks, let alone linear accelerator-enhanced weapons, or MAX units equipped with personal energy shields.
It's great that they're using older designs - they may not have access to the vast resources and R&D assets of the TR, or the crazy Vanu-inspired tech of the VS.
It's awesome that their tech is more bulky, robust and rough-looking. It sets them apart perfectly (T-Ray I love you for making this work!).
But when I added wear & tear to magical nanite-based production to the mix, and then saw the torn sleeve on Higby's character (on the Indar sunset screen (http://www.planetside-universe.com/media/viewer.php?img_id=1665)), something in me snapped. ;)
And, when you look at this render of the Magrider (http://www.planetside-universe.com/media/viewer.php?img_id=1664), you can see that even VS tech will be manufactured somewhat chipped and dented.


BUT WHAT ABOUT THE STORY?
No one says that the NC need to be some poor-ass, malnourished guerrillas with rocks, AKs and RPGs - they're using too much sophisticated equipment for that image to work.
To me they were always well-organized freedom fighters, with strong political and financial backing.
Even without the latter, PlanetSide's world has nanites which make the question of resources all but irrelevant. Plus, the TR, VS and NC will all fight for the same resources, so no faction is truly more resourceful than the other.
I think this would work and none of the factions needs to make their first steps into battle with second-hand gear. ;)


ALTERNATIVES
Perfect solution: I'm assuming that, as far as development assets are concerned, the chips, dents and tears on the textures are on separate layers in the files, and extracting them wouldn't require the art team to rework them, or make them from scratch.
Ideally, all equipment should be in mint condition when created, but deteriorate afterwards. Over time (or, even better, over distance moved or damage taken), the wear&tear texture (extracted from the current textures) would be superimposed on the min condition texture.
This is done for vehicles in APB, for instance - they get dirty over time.
It would also make players that survive longer stand out among n00b fodder. Especially if the deterioration was based on distance traveled.

Decent solution: Just drop the wear&tear and just stick to the awesomely unique design principles to make the factions stand out. Maybe add deterioration at some point after release.
The overall feel of the game would be less gritty, but with nanites and rationalized rebirthing, there's little room for "gritty" in PlanetSide 2.


DISCUSS
So, what is your take on the subject? :)

[LZachariah]

Remember, the NC are described as scavengers/commandos/masters of asymmetrical warfare. Of course, no one would ever construct a new, BROKEN object via nanites ("let's make it with a scuffed paint job!"), but one could consider that nanites are also used to disassemble and TRANSPORT objects that had previously been scavenged. I imagine giant weapon vaults wherein objects are teleported, via nanites, to the NC (in this case). So their devices aren't being made from scratch (with worn bolts and a chip on the shoulder-stock), but they are being rifted to the soldiers via nanites.

~Zachariah

[Crator]

I totally agree. Your suggestion adds a dimension of realism to the game. But, what makes you think they haven't done this already? Perhaps the screen shots showing deterioration you mentioned were taken after some time that caused it to, well, deteriorate.

[kaffis]

None of the above. I would love to see damage displayed as it occurs. However, I have no problem with NC spawning "broken" stuff in the manner we've seen. I like to think that it's not a matter of the NC nanites constructing things from scratch that are pre-battle-scarred, but rather, that the NC doesn't have sufficient resources (being a guerrilla insurgent force at heart) to construct things from scratch with nanites. Perhaps they're salvaging and repairing critical damage instead for redeployment?

[Traak]

Chest-length red beards on the NC

GMC pickups. Not TR. NC.

Rebel flag vests

Banjos

Bases that look like Kentucky split-pitch roofs, with the lower-pitch part being the cover for the porch

Coon dogs. Whatcha think the roof on the porch is fer, boy?

Female soldiers have halters made of tablecloth, Daisy Dukes.

Rebel slouch caps

NC have half-tracks. They HAVE to have half-tracks.

Campfires

Yeah. Let's not do the "roughed up" look halfway, yeeeeeeehaaaaaw!

[Baron]

I will max out the skill tree for the banjo, Day 1

[Vash02]

I would guess that there has to be a blueprint that the nanites use to build vehicles. It could be that the original vehicle they scanned in was all beaten up and worn and hence the nanites create vehicles to the same exact specifications as the original everytime.

Thats what I think would explain it story-wise.

[CutterJohn]

I don't mind the wear and tear so much.. Pristine vehicles would look a bit out of place, and a system of making them dirty would just be a lot of work with little real payoff.. its not that important.

I do think they take the weathering a bit too far though, and the wear patterns look somewhat odd, since much of the wear is not in a spot that would actually see wear..

[Raymac]

Female soldiers have halters made of tablecloth, Daisy Dukes.


OH hell to the yes!

It's going to come down to preference in the end. I think this really is one of those style vs realism things, and personally I like style first. I always tell my friends when we are watching a movie and they say "psshh thats so not realistic", I say, you want realism then go stand on the corner. I watch movies and play games for the fantasy of it. I can suspend disbelief for a bit.

Also, it can be explained to make it realistic, like the nanites are based off a "saved" copy and since it was banged up and cobbled together to begin with, then that's the mold that's being used. (edit: like Vash02 said)

[Traak]

I don't mind the wear and tear so much.. Pristine vehicles would look a bit out of place, and a system of making them dirty would just be a lot of work with little real payoff.. its not that important.

I do think they take the weathering a bit too far though, and the wear patterns look somewhat odd, since much of the wear is not in a spot that would actually see wear..

You mean, the scrape marks from running over other vehicles that should be on the underside of the front of the tank, not on the back of the turret?

I would love to see shiny bare metal on the parts of the sides of the tank road wheels that face the sprocket teeth. I used to painstakingly paint that shiny bright silver on my tank road wheels when I built plastic scale models. Of course, the German tanks had teeth on both sides of a single center set of wheels. I don't think modern tanks make that visibility-multiplying mistake.

Oh, and I want plastic scale models or already-built models of my favorite PS machinery. Moichendizing!

[Dreamcast]

I made a thread about this once.

I think wear and tear after battles.

It will be cool if the armor got destroyed where u got shot at, and then got exposed till ur skin showed so if you got shot on ur skin, u die quicker since you will get inflicted with extra damage.

But I don't think Planetside is efficient enough to do that.

[Graywolves]

I like wear and tear over time although I doubt it would be implemented.

My reasons being that I always felt badass when I was riding around in a vehicle filled with bulletholes or accomplishing so much in a single life.

[Raymac]

I like wear and tear over time although I doubt it would be implemented.

My reasons being that I always felt badass when I was riding around in a vehicle filled with bulletholes or accomplishing so much in a single life.

I totally agree with you. Every time I landed my reaver for repairs and saw it covered in bullet holes, I would get a big smile on my face.

[Talek Krell]

I totally agree with you. Every time I landed my reaver for repairs and saw it covered in bullet holes, I would get a big smile on my face.+1 to this and the OP.

[Accuser]

I would guess that there has to be a blueprint that the nanites use to build vehicles. It could be that the original vehicle they scanned in was all beaten up and worn and hence the nanites create vehicles to the same exact specifications as the original everytime.

Thats what I think would explain it story-wise.

^ This
There's nothing saying that there's a Vanu-tech "computer aided design" interface where the factions get to design whatever they want. They brought over a small civilization worth of gear to Auraxis, found the nanite construction tech and scanned in what they had. NC had to bolt a tank together as best they could, then scan it, then start pumping them out using the resources on Auraxis.

This makes perfect sense if the founders of the VS were TR scientists who discovered a cache of Vanu tech and figured they could scan it all and use it to secede.

[FIREk]

^ This
There's nothing saying that there's a Vanu-tech "computer aided design" interface where the factions get to design whatever they want. They brought over a small civilization worth of gear to Auraxis, found the nanite construction tech and scanned in what they had. NC had to bolt a tank together as best they could, then scan it, then start pumping them out using the resources on Auraxis.

This makes perfect sense if the founders of the VS were TR scientists who discovered a cache of Vanu tech and figured they could scan it all and use it to secede.

It would, if the TR and VS vehicles were pristine.
The TR have/had limitless resources and could scan a fresh vehicle, right off the assembly line.
VS tech is by definition cutting-edge, brand-spanking new and there's no reason why it would be scanned dented.
Come to think of it, even if the NC had stolen some previous-generation TR hardware (which I'm assuming is what they're using, story-wise), they obviously had to repaint all of it before scanning. And they're not some space hobos that they couldn't afford enough paint. :P

I do agree that this explanation has merit, and I thought about something like this when considering the subject of worn equipment, but there are still a few gaps left unfilled until the devs tell us their story (assuming there are no gaps there). ;)

[Accuser]

It would, if the TR and VS vehicles were pristine.
The TR have/had limitless resources and could scan a fresh vehicle, right off the assembly line.
VS tech is by definition cutting-edge, brand-spanking new and there's no reason why it would be scanned dented.

We might be working with different lore here... And I don't think there are any assembly lines on Auraxis.

The TR show up with a few thousand people to Auraxis, roll around in tanks discovering things, getting them dented up in the process. Scientists find ANCIENT (read as "not brand-spanking new") Vanu tech that was obviously designed for warfare and may well have been in wars before their discovery. Once nano-bot fabrication is worked out, TR scan in a tank (which has been rolling around Auraxis for a while now, hitting invincible trees and falling off cliffs). VS scan in their ancient, second-hand magriders. NC break out the duct tape and build a MAX with an integrated "beer hat" drinking system and scan that in.

Voila! All the nanobot-fabricated stuff is beat up.

[Brusi]

NC break out the duct tape and build a MAX with an integrated "beer hat" drinking system and scan that in.

Cause, as if you wouldn't!

I like the way the models look and it doesn't affect me in the slightest, even though i love fluff. I do like the explanation that the tanks we get have been salvaged and repaired by nanites. Maybe by teleporting the wrecks of vehicles or whatever.

One thing i do notice playing PS still is that you get a really good feeling driving around in a fully repaired tank, that is peppered with bullet holes and black from explosive impact marks. They are like veteran status badges, haha!

Having something visual that shows that you've managed to keep your vehicle alive for a longer than average time during battle is really nice. I would love a feature of gradual damage and dirtyness, but only if they have the resources to do so.

[Talek Krell]

They have the locational damage, so maybe it wouldn't be too hard to have some of the damage leave "scars" when it's repaired?

[Xyntech]

They have the locational damage, so maybe it wouldn't be too hard to have some of the damage leave "scars" when it's repaired?

Maybe bullet pock marks and scorching from fires/explosions remains, but fires get put out and missing pieces come back.

It's not like we are cleaning and resurfacing the vehicle, we are returning it to a structurally sound, combat ready state :)

[Traak]

Nose art on the bombers. If I'm the only one who can see the nose art on my bomber, then so be it.

[Raymac]

Nose art on the bombers. If I'm the only one who can see the nose art on my bomber, then so be it.

Hell yes! I want a pin up girl, or maybe some Flying-Tiger-esque nose art on my plane. Of course, if you can design anything you want, it will take about 5 seconds before we see the Flying Penis Squadron.

[Brusi]

and 5.1 seconds for the flying swastika squadran

[Malorn]

If stuff spawns from nanites it doesn't make sense to me that they would manufacture it worn and dented. If I just respawned from a respawn tube why would my gear be torn and tattered?

I like the idea of the wear n' tear being something developed over time, to the point where someone alive or a tank that has been through hell and back LOOKS like it has been through hell and back, while some fresh-off-the-nanite-line tank is pristine.

Layers added over time or distance traveled or damage taken (or some combination) makes sense to me, as you are no longer in a spawn tube or off a nanite pad. But the initial renders of worn gear and stuff looks really bizarre given the planetside nanite technology.

NC might be using older designs, but that doesn't mean they're using older equipment. I'd also like to understand how they explain the superior vanguard firepower, MAX shield, and phoenix/sparrow guidance systems if they are using "inferior" tech to the TR.

What is more plausible is that they are using older designs that have been modified since they cannot use TR designs (for whatever reason). The original PS lore also stated that the separatists that became NC had some industrial types in their group. Makes sense that they would inherit some good engineers and scientists who could adapt cutting edge technology to older equipment designs. And in doing so they were more concerned with practical applications than aesthetics so you get the square shapes and the rugged look.

Rugged = yes.
Older designs = yes.
Hastily but practically modified = yes.
Worn & tattered = no.

[kaffis]

NC might be using older designs, but that doesn't mean they're using older equipment. I'd also like to understand how they explain the superior vanguard firepower, MAX shield, and phoenix/sparrow guidance systems if they are using "inferior" tech to the TR.
A cannon is inferior tech to a SAW. The vanguard isn't really difficult to explain. The Sparrow guidance system is pretty similar to the Striker, depending on which iteration you're talking, and the Striker's shoulder-portable vs. requiring an integrated suit. The Phoenix isn't all that advanced when it comes to guidance. Automated guidance vs. radio/wire-fed manual control? I'll tell you which requires more computational power. the Shield is an outlier, I'll grant you, considering it showed up before vehicle and base shields.

[Geist]

Well, we can customize our uniforms and vehicles, perhaps the explanation is that they want it to look battle-scarred. Does make these things more intimidating.

[kaffis]

Well, we can customize our uniforms and vehicles, perhaps the explanation is that they want it to look battle-scarred. Does make these things more intimidating.
As I said in the Art Week Commlink thread: New Conglomerate -- Even our vehicles are grizzled battle-scarred veterans!

[NapalmEnima]

I figure the lore on this will be something like "we had to base the nanite pattern on something, so we used the best one we could find. Yeah... it's seen better days."

It doesn't necessarily explain all the post-creation customization, but I suspect the Lore will patch that hole too.

[basti]

Remember, the NC are described as scavengers/commandos/masters of asymmetrical warfare. Of course, no one would ever construct a new, BROKEN object via nanites ("let's make it with a scuffed paint job!"), but one could consider that nanites are also used to disassemble and TRANSPORT objects that had previously been scavenged. I imagine giant weapon vaults wherein objects are teleported, via nanites, to the NC (in this case). So their devices aren't being made from scratch (with worn bolts and a chip on the shoulder-stock), but they are being rifted to the soldiers via nanites.

~Zachariah

This got me.

What if your weapon doesnt just go away if you die, but the weapon itself got stored as data via nanites, and you then get the lastest version of your weapon back, fixed up and everything, but still with all the visual flaws. That would explain why stuff looks used after fresh spawning, but would also allow stuff to age. Let it age slow enough, and you will clearly see the difference between someone that uses a Gauss for the first time, and someone that was born with a Gauss in his hands.
The same could also work for vehicles. Would allow you to see the guy that is driving a mag for the very first time, and the guy that never left his mag for anything else but dying, just to get a new one.

[Crator]

What if your weapon doesnt just go away if you die, but the weapon itself got stored as data via nanites, and you then get the lastest version of your weapon back, fixed up and everything, but still with all the visual flaws.

Just doesn't make sense. It's fixed up but still looks damaged? I'll be kicking the weapon term thinking it gave me a broke weapon. :)

[Raymac]

Just doesn't make sense. It's fixed up but still looks damaged? I'll be kicking the weapon term thinking it gave me a broke weapon. :)

You ever accidentally save over a file with a bad draft? Basically the same idea. Plus, it's not like there is alot of Planetside canon they need to worry about. They can adjust the lore to fit the design.

[Talek Krell]

This got me.

What if your weapon doesnt just go away if you die, but the weapon itself got stored as data via nanites, and you then get the lastest version of your weapon back, fixed up and everything, but still with all the visual flaws. That would explain why stuff looks used after fresh spawning, but would also allow stuff to age. Let it age slow enough, and you will clearly see the difference between someone that uses a Gauss for the first time, and someone that was born with a Gauss in his hands.
The same could also work for vehicles. Would allow you to see the guy that is driving a mag for the very first time, and the guy that never left his mag for anything else but dying, just to get a new one.That would be kind of cool. And it fits with how I (think) the nanite systems work. Healing in PS1 was explained as using a medapp to adjust someone back to their normal parameters as recorded in the planet's memory. As far as I could tell though it considered aging normal, so it would replace a lost limb but didn't keep you from getting rougher around the edges as you aged. Which sounds sort of like what you're proposing for the vehicles.