The downside of F2P (lol at the web comic) [Archive]

Xyntech

2011-10-09, 02:44 AM

What it's like to play online games as a grownup (http://theoatmeal.com/comics/online_gaming)

Hopefully this won't be too accurate given PS2's F2P system. Shudder.

But really, how fun will it be to blast all those poor little FPS kiddies into kibbles and bits and bits and bits with some Organized Combat Skills? Oh, lots.

Q: Teamwork? Lol, wut?
A: Fraggafraggafraggafragga!

This is where team work needs to be head and shoulders above solo play.

I'm all for allowing solo play, even for tanks, I just don't want it to ever trump a well organized group.

Hopefully the class system makes medics able to be even more effective, along with making all the other classes also work really well in unison. Ideally, a well organized group should be able to take on at least twice their number in disorganized zerglings, even if there are one or two uber l33t bastards among the solo crowd.

Bags

2011-10-09, 02:52 AM

What is the point of this?

SKYeXile

2011-10-09, 03:37 AM

Defenders should of had a reaver MK1.

CutterJohn

2011-10-09, 05:29 AM

This is where team work needs to be head and shoulders above solo play.

I'm all for allowing solo play, even for tanks, I just don't want it to ever trump a well organized group.

Hopefully the class system makes medics able to be even more effective, along with making all the other classes also work really well in unison. Ideally, a well organized group should be able to take on at least twice their number in disorganized zerglings, even if there are one or two uber l33t bastards among the solo crowd.

I'm all for allowing solo play, but my preference clearly is more important and I want people who don't play the way I do to suffer some severe penalties because of it. If they're not playing the way I am, the correct way, then they clearly suck and don't deserve to compete with me.

That pretty much sum it up? You realize teamwork works right? There doesn't have to be actual mechanics supporting it, or something to push for it working. People working as a team will succeed more than those that do not. This is true in Every. Single. Game. Even the 'solo killwhore twitch games'. An awesome CS or Quake clan will wipe the floor with a team of awesome individual players who don't work together. Nothing extra is needed.

Xyntech

2011-10-09, 08:17 AM

I'm all for allowing solo play, but my preference clearly is more important and I want people who don't play the way I do to suffer some severe penalties because of it. If they're not playing the way I am, the correct way, then they clearly suck and don't deserve to compete with me.

That pretty much sum it up? You realize teamwork works right? There doesn't have to be actual mechanics supporting it, or something to push for it working. People working as a team will succeed more than those that do not. This is true in Every. Single. Game. Even the 'solo killwhore twitch games'. An awesome CS or Quake clan will wipe the floor with a team of awesome individual players who don't work together. Nothing extra is needed.

Congratulations on interpreting my words in a completely different way than they were intended. Perhaps some blame lays with me for my choice of wording.

Obviously, if you put 8 players vs 8 players, with all 16 being of equal skill, the side that uses team work will win every time in every game. The real point of contention here is how large a factor team work should play as opposed to reflexes and personal skill.

In team oriented games, reflexes will help, but you can beat a more skilled group of opponents by working together better than they are.

In twitch based games, that group of 8 working as a team are going to get their asses handed to them if their opponents are all a little more skilled than they are.

I haven't had a problem with changes like the driver controlling the main gun in Planetside 2 because I think it will be more welcoming to solo players, while doing little to damage team work.

I myself liked to run solo in Planetside a fair amount of the time, just to run around and shoot people without thinking about squad tactics or outfit objectives. It was never as effective as teaming up with other players though.

I'm not worried about the team work in Planetside 2, or the solo play. From everything I've heard so far, the developers seem to be doing a good job of supporting both styles of play. I was merely stating my opinion on where the balance should lay for rewarding team work versus rewarding personal skill.

I think Planetside 2 should lean more towards rewarding team work than personal skill.

Crator

2011-10-09, 08:45 AM

So, um, how is this discussion about F2P?

Xyntech

2011-10-09, 08:58 AM

So, um, how is this discussion about F2P?

At best a humorous jab at F2P, at worst a bit of alarmism?

Not exactly the most productive thread ever.

I blame the lack of new information. Damn it, the new week has technically started now. Can't we get some fresh scraps of information? How about a couple pixels of the Dyson? :D

Senyu

2011-10-09, 09:20 AM

Planetside 2 seems to heavily support teamwork espically the added missions. So while there will still be a fair amount of solo play, there still would be a general teameffort moving together in the same direction or goal. And I'll be glad to see a more concentrated effort of team work on the tactical level in combat and wondering of all the possibilities and combinations of different player skills in teamwork.

Withthat, I'll be on the hill headshott'n with my sniper

Hamma

2011-10-09, 10:59 AM

A new week brings a new feature at PlanetSide2.com ... hopefully.

:lol: at that comic, especially the word "Dickpickle"

NapalmEnima

2011-10-09, 12:45 PM

Go with "humorous jab".

You may recall from other threads that I'm acutally FOR F2P. I ran across this comic, found it to be hysterically goddam funny, and figued the best way to tie it into this forum (where many others Could Relate) was to make an F2P crack.

That's it. Just laugh.

Trolltaxi

2011-10-09, 01:42 PM

Correct me if I'm wrong but flaming each other on a game-forum is not much better than those 100.000 inmatures (some of them without pubic hair) in the comic strip.

Good coming and I see how it is connected to F2P! :)

Levente

2011-10-09, 06:49 PM

sorry might be stupid question, but since when was it confirmed that ps2 will be free to play?

SKYeXile

2011-10-09, 07:54 PM

sorry might be stupid question, but since when was it confirmed that ps2 will be free to play?

smedly beleives its the way of the future?

I agree.

morf

2011-10-09, 08:11 PM

smedly beleives its the way of the future?

I agree.

Yar I agree too. Now I can 25 box on the EQ3 pvp server.

Unstoppable.

ThGlump

2011-10-09, 08:14 PM

And i hope in a possible subscription only server, to keep us from all that F2P crap. There is nothing positive that F2P brings to games in regards of gameplay. Instead it brings content shops, hackers, and morons. If not subscription servers, i hope atleast for B2P.

Hamma

2011-10-09, 08:44 PM

sorry might be stupid question, but since when was it confirmed that ps2 will be free to play?

It will have "Free Components" and a cash shop, we don't know the specifics of how any of it is going to work though.

SKYeXile

2011-10-09, 09:12 PM

It will have "Free Components" and a cash shop, we don't know the specifics of how any of it is going to work though.

oh i think we will know the end result of it though.

$O€

They should add a trading card game minigame though. $15.00 per random pack of 10, maybe you will get:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v629/SKYeXile/skyexilecard.jpg

mebe some skins? $12.50 each!
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v629/SKYeXile/temp.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v629/SKYeXile/snow.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v629/SKYeXile/dess.jpg

perhaps some outfit colours? $20.00 to upload.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v629/SKYeXile/gal2.jpg

maybe pay to upload your own outfit decal...$8.0!

Bags

2011-10-09, 09:28 PM

Instead it brings content shops, hackers, and morons. If not subscription servers, i hope atleast for B2P.

LoL has none of those besides morons. But every game has morons regardless.

lol@srsly thinking they'll do a subscription only server...

SKYeXile

2011-10-09, 09:31 PM

LoL has none of those besides morons. But every game has morons regardless.

lol@srsly thinking they'll do a subscription only server...

hehe content shops in PS:2:

Would you like to zone to Ishunder? Please deposit 1000 station cash.

Raymac

2011-10-09, 09:40 PM

lol@srsly thinking they'll do a subscription only server...

Actually, that's not outside the realm of possibility. Even though it wasn't originally planned to be split, EQ2 technically has subscription-only servers. Also, T-Ray did mention off-hand a desire to have different servers with different sets of rules. I forget what it was in relation to, maybe friendly fire or something.

It is kind of hard to imagine now since PS1 only has 1 server, but if PS2 is as successful as it could be, then it could very likely have enough servers to support things like this.

Bags

2011-10-09, 09:46 PM

Actually, that's not outside the realm of possibility. Even though it wasn't originally planned to be split, EQ2 technically has subscription-only servers. Also, T-Ray did mention off-hand a desire to have different servers with different sets of rules. I forget what it was in relation to, maybe friendly fire or something.

It is kind of hard to imagine now since PS1 only has 1 server, but if PS2 is as successful as it could be, then it could very likely have enough servers to support things like this.

Rule #1 of F2P is to never segment your player base. If your freebies and payers don't interact then your payers have less people to play with and your freebies won't see your cool shit and want to buy it. Then there's the fact that PS2's draw is going to be huge fights and teamwork.

Sifer2

2011-10-09, 10:04 PM

In my opinion they can cut down on a lot of the annoying children and hackers that F2P brings by at least requiring a Credit/Debit card to make an account. If they don't at the least do that then I fear for the quality of the game experience no matter what else they plan to do or say.

I like the web comic though since it kind of makes fun of both sides. Since it plays out more like a fantasy of what unrealistic life the adult claims to have when he defends himself in a videogame. While the children "win" but not really cause they are still obnoxious little snots just playing an online game.

CutterJohn

2011-10-09, 10:19 PM

hehe content shops in PS:2:

Would you like to zone to Ishunder? Please deposit 1000 station cash.

Would you like to zone into the game? Please deposit $15 a month.

How is it in any way different?

SKYeXile

2011-10-09, 11:46 PM

Would you like to zone into the game? Please deposit $15 a month.

How is it in any way different?

when you dont take my post out of context its very different.

PS1 opperates on pay to play where you pay $15 a month to access all content, when the time paid for is up you can nolonger access the content.

buying content or quests in a F2P game for station cash would be a once off fee...

CutterJohn

2011-10-09, 11:59 PM

Right. PS1 has a cash shop that sells you 30 day access to all items and zones in the game for $15.

Bags

2011-10-10, 12:14 AM

It really sucked being a F2P player in ps1.

SKYeXile

2011-10-10, 12:48 AM

It really sucked being a F2P player in ps1.

We best get on the horn and tell everybody they can play for free...once they unlock the zones and weapons...for 1 month only...after they pay.

Xyntech

2011-10-10, 01:31 AM

There is nothing positive that F2P brings to games in regards of gameplay.

It brings more players, especially in a genre like FPS games where the target audience isn't used to paying a subscription fee.

I kind of hope that Planetside 2 just goes with a box price solution. FPS players are used to dropping some money to purchase the game, then being able to play it's multiplayer for free.

a PS2 F2P model with a one time box price would be able to easily match this, while diminishing the abundance of hackers.

Keep the box price on the lower side of average if you don't want it to discourage prospective players, maybe $30 or $40? Make it available on steam too. Do some steam sales with the game available for half price. Good advertising and you can bring in some extra players who were on the fence about it.

Jimmuc

2011-10-10, 01:38 AM

rather spend $30-50 on the game itself then $5-15 a month on a premium account that gives me something like +50% learning speed increase to skills while in-game and +25% increase while offline. like World of Tanks but not having to buy gold.

Zulthus

2011-10-10, 02:01 AM

Xyntech

2011-10-10, 02:38 AM

If you actually want to play the game, $15 a month is absolutely nothing. You can afford that from working at McDonald's.

To someone who has only ever played non-P2P FPS games, it may seem like a pointless expenditure.

Provides more support for development

True, but F2P has already proven to be a reliable business model.

a more mature community (keeps the 8 year olds away)

This just isn't even remotely accurate. I know of several kids just in me and my friends families, some of whom are literally 8 or 9 years old, who play P2P MMOs.

hopefully prevent a cash shop implementation (no matter how much they promise they won't sell power, we all know that it will eventually happen).

We all know they are already planning on "selling power" by your extremely broad definition. I also have every confidence that they will never sell power by my definition.

Wouldn't disagree with a box price on top of it, either. It will help so much with hacking problems.

The transaction of money is the idea on how to reduce hacking problems. Having a subscription fee and a box price would be redundant there. A one time transaction is all you need to reduce this problem as much as it can be reduced in this way.

The ol' argument "but we wutn getz 2many playerz" STFU. Even back in the day when sub fees were very new, it got 75k subs easy. Nowadays with the huge FPS crowd, I'd imagine seeing many more than 500k subs, EVEN WITH $15 a month. No one would mind paying if the gameplay is great. There's gonna be a hell of a lot of servers at release.

The game needs as many players as it can get and appealing to the FPS player market is the best way to do this. The only precedent we have for a P2P FPS game is the first Planetside, which started with semi-decent numbers and rapidly declined from there. I don't want a repeat of PS1's history.

In any case, the developers have said F2P is in. That isn't a gameplay decision subject to change, that is a business decision that we have no say in. It's not just for PS2, it's for SOE games in general. So really, there isn't much point in debating it.

If you don't like F2P and you want to play Planetside 2, it sounds like you are out of luck.

I for one welcome our new F2P overlords. ;)

Captain B

2011-10-10, 02:46 AM

I agree. One box = one account. If you want cool new stuff, pay more. If you want expansion content, pay more, or wait until it becomes available for all players 6-12 months later. F2P is great for people who just don't have the money (or desire) to pay almost $200 a year on a game, plus any other fees or purchases regarding the game (box, cash store, etc.), that is usually "beaten" in about 6 months of play and just repeated over and over again afterward.

The strength of F2P is more people playing (trial allows people to test the waters before purchasing outright). The weakness is too many accounts, which is immediately stamped out by purchasing accounts (box or account code D2D). It's one of those things that you can have your cake and eat it too. The only problem with F2P is the "Pay to Win" model, where you HAVE to buy the gear or just die incessantly, which actually works against the model's strengths since players aren't as stupid as devs often think and will realize the truth of it all in short order.

Any real gamer with a half a brain understands this. Zynga, anyone? Thought so.

Jimmuc

2011-10-10, 03:06 AM

i agree with you Zulthus, i too would rather see an subscription but if their going to stay with F2P w/ cash shop its up to us to help them figure whats the best route to take. WoT is the only F2P that i like really and would like to see an premium account like theirs ($13-15 a month) instead of an cash shop and not having to buy/use gold/station cash or whatever. the F2P with premium account works the best imo (besides subscription) and no damn cash shop.

my idea is (open to any suggestions):
$50 for the box w/ game key and an extra $15 an month for premium with an option to buy 3/6/12 months worth of premium. having the premium account can give you what i said in my previous post and some other perks perhaps but nothing that makes you vastly superior to the non-premium players.

there are going to be people that only just spend $50 for the game, there are going to be people that buy the premium account for months/years at a time and then there are the people who will buy the premium off and on. like i said before i'd rather have an subscription but if they stick to the F2P, what i typed above is what i'd rather see if anything.

SKYeXile

2011-10-10, 03:56 AM

If you actually want to play the game, $15 a month is absolutely nothing. You can afford that from working at McDonald's. Provides more support for development, a more mature community (keeps the 8 year olds away), hopefully prevent a cash shop implementation (no matter how much they promise they won't sell power, we all know that it will eventually happen). Wouldn't disagree with a box price on top of it, either. It will help so much with hacking problems. The ol' argument "but we wutn getz 2many playerz" STFU. Even back in the day when sub fees were very new, it got 75k subs easy. Nowadays with the huge FPS crowd, I'd imagine seeing many more than 500k subs, EVEN WITH $15 a month. No one would mind paying if the gameplay is great. There's gonna be a hell of a lot of servers at release.

I agree $15.00 is nothing, but theres a whole lot of tight asses in the world, and guess what? alot of them play FPS's because they dont have to pay an ongoing sub. which is good, when the cash shop is opened I can CRUSH them with my wallet.

i said previously pay to play is the future, that was a lie, ITS THE NOW. why would you want to limit your income to your population x 15 per month? when you could have potentially unlimited income(que evil laugh) give people abit of a taste with some free stuff now and then, THEN MAKE THEM PAY! and of course have an incentive to sub, higher XP gains and XP while offline is a high candidate. being able to level over a certain level is another(they have done it before)

i agree having a purchase upfront would limit hackers, but also even if the game is clinetside having a proper tertiary hack detection program like warden is going to help things. but also banning the hackers...hackers were rarly seen back in 04, when banb was on the case, SOE does have the tools to detect them, but enforcing the banning policy is another thing...

I SandRock

2011-10-10, 06:37 AM

My only major concern with the announcement of PS2 being F2P is that they won't charge for the original game. I have seen what happens to F2P FPS games that are free entirely...
They get overrun with hackers. (APB, CA, etc.)
You can never stop hackers entirely. But at least when you ban them and they have to buy the game again limits their ability to come back sufficiently.

PB etc. are useless crap when left to deal with h4xx0rs. I'm fine with no subs, just please, please, charge me for the original game :P

Bags

2011-10-10, 10:08 AM

They haven't confirmed it will be F2P, just that it will have some F2P aspect.

Crator

2011-10-10, 10:37 AM

Hamma

2011-10-10, 11:45 AM

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v629/SKYeXile/skyexilecard.jpg
:rofl:

ThGlump

2011-10-10, 12:07 PM

THEN MAKE THEM PAY!

And whats best at convincing players to pay? Sell better weapons. They already mentioned that there will be some weapons in cash shop only, with rare chance to drop. Im fine with sub, but i dont want to be charged $0.1 per spawn with some specific weapon.

but also banning the hackers

Banning has no effect if you can create new account in 5 min. Thats why it should have some sort of payment to start playing. (Or dedicated trial server, where you can try game before paying - then your characters are moved to regular servers - worked well in RIFT).

NapalmEnima

2011-10-10, 12:50 PM

Banning has no effect if you can create new account in 5 min. Thats why it should have some sort of payment to start playing.

To sign up for pay pal (iirc) I had to provide a cred card # that they then charged and immediately refunded then checked again for validity. Some cards let you generate 1-use credit card numbers. The charge-refund-recheck detects them.

So a simple known method for credit card checks and you've got a system that will let you ban CREDIT CARDS, which are much harder to come by.

Want to create four accounts with that card? Sure! But if little timmy hacks and gets busted, Dar's gonna be PISSED when his account gets ZAPPED too. And I'm okay with that.

Xyntech

2011-10-10, 12:54 PM

They already mentioned that there will be some weapons in cash shop only, with rare chance to drop.

Source? I don't remember hearing that one and I would have a problem with it if it were true.

I did hear that they would be selling weapons that you would otherwise have to work to unlock. That isn't at all the same as what you are saying.

ThGlump

2011-10-10, 01:17 PM

http://www.planetside-universe.com/forums/showpost.php?p=590117&postcount=153

There is nothing about availability through cert tree. Only shop/drop cycle.

Xyntech

2011-10-10, 01:27 PM

http://www.planetside-universe.com/forums/showpost.php?p=590117&postcount=153

There is nothing about availability through cert tree. Only shop/drop cycle.

Thanks, I guess I had missed that one.

That still doesn't suggest exclusivity though. More of a situational availability. I'd need to hear more about the implementation. For example, what are these "drops?" From what I understood, we would unlock a weapon (through gameplay or the cash shop) and then always have access to it, or at least always have to option to equip it if our empire controls the right resources.

Sounds worrying, but very vague and half baked as well.

Hopefully the cash shop gets some play testing during beta. Maybe they could hand out the equivalent of $5 to each beta tester. At the very least, I hope we get some more definitive answers on exactly how they intend the cash shop to work before they actually lock it in.

ThGlump

2011-10-10, 01:49 PM

Well its not exclusive. You dont can get equivalent weapon in drop. But there is nothing about if its only variant of unlockable weapon or something stronger (i expect later).

If i dont have enough information, and i must extrapolate from that, i always take the worst scenario possible. That way im never disappointed. Either i was prepared for it on it ends better than i expected and im happy :)
So i say theyll sell power and excuse it by possibility to get equivalent weapons from rare drops.

Xyntech

2011-10-10, 02:26 PM

I can appreciate a little cautious pessimism as long as it isn't all doom and gloom :)

Dorest0rm

2011-10-10, 03:34 PM

Kids pick the sides with the super weapons duper cool looking military weapons.
So there wont be any on VS.

Xyntech

2011-10-10, 03:44 PM

Wtf are you going on about? All the cool kids wear purple. Fact.

NapalmEnima

2011-10-10, 04:40 PM

Now I want an alt named "Richard Pickle".

In fact, an entire outfit all of whom's last name is pickle. First names that are all potentially innocent, but when taken in collection would probably get us all banned. Whee!

SKYeXile

2011-10-10, 05:16 PM

Thanks, I guess I had missed that one.

That still doesn't suggest exclusivity though. More of a situational availability. I'd need to hear more about the implementation. For example, what are these "drops?" From what I understood, we would unlock a weapon (through gameplay or the cash shop) and then always have access to it, or at least always have to option to equip it if our empire controls the right resources.

Sounds worrying, but very vague and half baked as well.

Hopefully the cash shop gets some play testing during beta. Maybe they could hand out the equivalent of $5 to each beta tester. At the very least, I hope we get some more definitive answers on exactly how they intend the cash shop to work before they actually lock it in.

yea thats the first thing i have herd about drops. if theres drops i wonder does that mean the is virtual currency(besides station cash) worst case scenario...in terms i buying power i figured you would be able to effectivly buy time and power through your tech tree with cash.

Also in beta they should give us the amount of Station we have already spent to play with.... :evil:

I SandRock

2011-10-11, 04:08 AM

Bags is correct. They haven't given us any details about the F2P models really. You guys are bringing up good concerns but please be aware that PS2 will have an anti-cheat program along with other measures to ensure cheat-hacking is taken care of.

From a business aspect, cash shops are most likely better for the business. And, the part I like, it allows people to try out the game before purchasing it. There wasn't this many complaints about the PS1 F2P reserves program other then the stupid cheat-hacks because of the lack of an ant-cheat and no in-game GMs.

They said they are using a third-party anti-hack program. That says enough. It might stop idiots who download outdated or free hacks. But the proper paid-for hacks won't be stopped by them. Look at APB. APB had problems with hackers in its first incarnation when it was still pay-for-the-box and subscription. They used Punkbuster as anti-hack program. If they had an active CSR they would have been able to reduce hackers to a level where its hardly a problem.
But the company went bankrupt and now another company took over, and APBR is free to play, no box price, no subscription. And the game is overrun with hackers meaning 1 out of every 2-3 games you will be put up against at least 1 hacker. They have relatively active CSRs banning them but they just make a new account and come back.

A box price doesn't have to be high, like 20-30 dollars / euro / pound. But it will be sufficient to deter hackers to keep coming back after being banned.

SKYeXile

2011-10-11, 04:48 AM

They said they are using a third-party anti-hack program. That says enough. It might stop idiots who download outdated or free hacks. But the proper paid-for hacks won't be stopped by them. Look at APB. APB had problems with hackers in its first incarnation when it was still pay-for-the-box and subscription. They used Punkbuster as anti-hack program. If they had an active CSR they would have been able to reduce hackers to a level where its hardly a problem.
But the company went bankrupt and now another company took over, and APBR is free to play, no box price, no subscription. And the game is overrun with hackers meaning 1 out of every 2-3 games you will be put up against at least 1 hacker. They have relatively active CSRs banning them but they just make a new account and come back.

A box price doesn't have to be high, like 20-30 dollars / euro / pound. But it will be sufficient to deter hackers to keep coming back after being banned.

there's your problem!

Traak

2011-10-11, 04:50 AM

Sell the box with a year of access. 150 dollar game.

Now let's see how many accounts Cheating Punk wants to get.

Another method: find the cheat websites, and distribute, automatically, to all PS players, a DOS package that has them using a tiny portion of their bandwidth to ping the cheat servers all day every day while they are online. If they are in an offshore jurisdiction, which they usually are, then they can't bring any suit or law against Sony for doing this.

If they want to bring their business into the USA, where they can face legal action and incarceration, then they will have a voice.

:D

I SandRock

2011-10-11, 12:13 PM

there's your problem!

I completely agree. BUT, the same is true of ALL third party anti-hack software. And that's what Planetside 2 will have.

Regardless, no matter how awesome your hack protection, hackers will get through. And what's better than just charge a little one time fee for a new account? I understand people's objection to subscriptions but what's wrong with a box-fee.

It's a one time fee, unless you plan on hacking. :)

Crator

2011-10-11, 12:17 PM

You don't have to charge a fee. Just make it so you have to use a credit card to validate a new account. You can't obtain a CC easily, not to the amount of constantly being able to create new accounts to cheat again and again.
There's got to be something other then a CC you could use too, I'm just not thinking of anything off the top of my head atm.

ThGlump

2011-10-11, 12:21 PM

Another method: find the cheat websites, and distribute, automatically, to all PS players, a DOS package that has them using a tiny portion of their bandwidth to ping the cheat servers all day every day while they are online.

Players would eat soe alive if they discovered that they did that. Sony had already problem for installing rootkits into system before, i dont think they want another.

NapalmEnima

2011-10-11, 12:39 PM

There are ways to address the "I just go get a new account" thing. Sony is take cheating Very Seriously. They have to, or this game will die Very Quickly.

So lets assume some things:
1) Active hack-hunters, banning bitches for their buffoonery.
2) Accounts validated via visa (or mastercard, or whatever, but that doesn't alliterate). You know... the ones with a VALID BILLING ADDRESS. :evil:

So cheaters will get banned. You can ban by credit card, and by BILLING ADDRESS. So And after being banned a few times, said cheaters WONT BE ABLE TO COME BACK.

And if you tack on a "punitive banning fee"... mwahahahHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

Little Timmy will have "some splainin to do". Probably followed by some "bang-zoom to the moon".

:evil: :evil: :evil: :rofl: :evil: :evil: :rofl: :evil: :rofl: :evil: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Talek Krell

2011-10-11, 02:13 PM

Players would eat soe alive if they discovered that they did that. Sony had already problem for installing rootkits into system before, i dont think they want another.If that's the biggest problem, then make it voluntary.

SKYeXile

2011-10-11, 05:06 PM

i agree ban by CC/billing address and/or box fee is fine, FPS players are used to paying the once off fee, but i think for PS2 to compete in todays market, against other FPS's it needs to be F2P.

Traak

2011-10-12, 03:53 AM

Wikipedia:
A rootkit is software that enables continued privileged access to a computer while actively hiding its presence from administrators by subverting standard operating system functionality or other applications.

The software wouldn't be subverting anything.
It wouldn't be modifying the OS functionality
It wouldn't be touching other applications.

Sony could make it voluntary, too. Then, once the hack sellers tried to challenge it by putting something of their business in the USA, which will never happen, Sony could sue them beyond all ability to ever earn anything forever, and end that particular problem vector.

I SandRock

2011-10-12, 03:24 PM

i agree ban by CC/billing address and/or box fee is fine, FPS players are used to paying the once off fee, but i think for PS2 to compete in todays market, against other FPS's it needs to be F2P.

What's that based on? And almost ALL competitive FPS charge money, even the shittiest of the shittiest ones.

BF3: 50 Euro
MW3: 60 Euro
MoH: 50 Euro
Red Orchestra 2: 34 Euro
Homefront: 30 Euro
etc.

Free FPS games with item shops:
Combat Arms (Shit game, full of hackers)
APB:R (Game with potential owned by shitty company, full of hackers)
Etc.

F2P means no subscription. Not no box-fee.

If SoE charges 20 euro for Planetside 2 then it's way lower than any of the prices of other games while at the same time it offers more. Give a 3 day free trial.

Alternatively: Let me pay a one time fee or a small subscription (3 euro or w/e a month) to play on premium servers which have additional staff monitoring the game for hackers AND only allows others who paid the one time fee/sub to play on :)

As for banning creditcard.... I think people will find it very dubious to have to enter a creditcard number when they were told the game was free and then trust they won't be charged. It just makes people conspicuous. I think a one-time fee will meet a lot less resistance and people will understand and have no problem with it. I understand people find it odd or too expensive to pay a monthly fee for a video game. But has society really come so far that we find it strange to pay a low one time fee for a video game all together? :p

And for the guy saying SoE takes cheating very seriously. Well, thats what they say. And I've heard the exact words from other companies before releasing their game. APB:R being the latest. Guess what, full of hax and hardly anything being done about it :P
Every FPS player asks that question to the developers, what are you doing about hackers. And they can really only give one answer:
We take hacking very seriously and we are already working on several systems to fight hacking as well as prevent it. As you understand we can't talk about what these systems are because then it'll be easier for the haxx0rs!

Anything else is shooting yourself in the foot :p

Senyu

2011-10-12, 03:45 PM

or.................they could just have a lower price subscription model of less than 15 dollers which would deter a significant amount of hackers away alone while giving them funding to continue the game and able to have active hack hunters constantly patroling the game.

Honestly 15 bucks a month, 180 a year....not that much if you have a job. What else are you gona spend your money on. And it doesnt even have to be 15. Could 8 dollers a month. WOOO 96 dollers a year! Thats F***ING EXPENSIVE! I AINT GONA PLAY THAT SHIT CAUSE IT AINT F2P!!!!

Simple price solves F2P problems. Which you all are making page after page trying to figure out how to solve.

Crator

2011-10-12, 03:54 PM

Honestly 15 bucks a month, 180 a year....not that much if you have a job.

There's the issue. Now you've gone and deterred all school aged kids that are not old enough to have a job yet.

Senyu

2011-10-12, 04:01 PM

15 bucks allowance then. But notch it down to 8 like I suggested. Your parents wont give you 8 bucks a month for allowance, even if you dont have allowance thats hardly anything compared to the other stuff they will buy for you, cell phone, internet, computer, toys, clothes, food, fast food. Really, 8 is bucks reasonably easy. Im sure you could find 8 dollers worth of quarters

NapalmEnima

2011-10-12, 04:59 PM

SOE can experiment with "sub-only" servers (with character transfers to and from in the event that it doesn't work out), even after release.

They could do a one MONTH free trial.

But as soon as they lose the ability to ban accounts in a way that will stick, they're in for a horrific infestation of hackers.

IDEA: Hack-legal server[s]. Monitor the shit out of them, but never ban people there for hacking. They're "anything goes" servers. It's a "honey pot", a big inviting target that folks will test out all their favorite hacks on before trying them out For Realzies.

So the monitoring teaches SOE what to look for, and when similar activity turns up on a non-hack server, bust out the ban hammer.

I still think the credit card requirement is critical. Yes, some fraction of kids won't be able to get mommy or daddy to pony up the card number. I think the effects on being able to ban folks in a way that will STICK will more than make up for it.

If PS2 turns into a hack-fest, all the legitimate players (like the adults with their own credit cards) are going to take their money elsewhere. Huge loss of income.

OTOH, if they require a valid credit card number, they'll lose some cross section of the Little Timmy Market, but keep all the people who would otherwise run screaming into the night if PS2 turned into a hack-fest. The Little Timmy types who can't get a credit card seem less likely to be spending money online anyway. Not so great a loss as one might think.

Another Idea: Let them set a budget limit (total or per month) when registering the card. That way mom & dad can keep Little Timmy on a tight leash if need be. It's also a great time to pop up a big red flashy sign about the "punitive banishment fee" :evil: :rotfl:

Yet Another Idea:
Trial Servers. On a trial server, you don't need a credit card number unless you want to actually pay for something. Bans from trial servers probably won't be associated with a credit card, and that's fine.

"Normal Servers". To be able to get out of the trial servers, you'll need a valid credit card number, and... say... 5 dollars, a one time cost.

Again, the trial servers will act as honey pots, drawing hackers who don't want to get their credit cards banned. They'll also draw folks who like to pwn newbs.

Down Side: That first impression could suck. Between the hackers and newb crushers, a trial server might not be all that much fun for someone trying PS2 out for the first time.

Idea Refinement: Rotating Trial Servers. A trial account can only have a single character, the one they created on the designated trial server. Say a given server is only the trial server for one day a month. This leaves plenty of time to weed out the fuck-wits, and still allows the legitimate new players a chance to see PS2 in All Its Glory.

You put some relatively large slice of the hacker-hunters on the trial server, to help catch them as early as possible.

Again, to go from a trial to a "normal/premium/whatever/they/call/it" account would require a credit card number and a small fee, $5 or something.

Hell, look at the proposed F2P setup for DCU (or was it LoL... don't recall). Trial, Premium, and Legendary. Trial accounts are ones that have spent little or no money. Premiums have spent at least 3$ (I think) in the cash shop. Legendary players are the ones paying a monthly fee.

Senyu

2011-10-12, 05:39 PM

Honestly, do you believe Planetside 2 can sustain its self purely with a cash shop?

Crator

2011-10-12, 05:41 PM

Tis' bold new territory, I give you that. But, I would hope, that SOE would be able to adapt as needed. As long as that doesn't mean breaking the rule of not selling something that you can't obtain through just playing the game.

And please, let's not get into a debate on what "selling power" is again just because I said that. Thanks!

NapalmEnima

2011-10-12, 08:13 PM

Honestly, do you believe Planetside 2 can sustain its self purely with a cash shop?

Sounds like Smedly thinks it can: Eff. Two. Pee.

Raka Maru

2011-10-12, 09:04 PM

For F2P, look at LOTRO. you don't become silver member until you actually buy something. Paypal is the main payment method. You can never be uber without paying money. I'm talking about bag space etc... Not epic weapons and stuff. So there are no 31337 freebiers.

Ppl buy bags, clothing, dyes, capes etc... They are doing good, and I spent a lot of money for a while and I still get online sometimes and play, when I'm not on PS1. :D

Sooooo, if dumbass buys something and gets banned, he can't use that paypal or cc anymore.

SKYeXile

2011-10-12, 09:05 PM

What's that based on? And almost ALL competitive FPS charge money, even the shittiest of the shittiest ones.

BF3: 50 Euro
MW3: 60 Euro
MoH: 50 Euro
Red Orchestra 2: 34 Euro
Homefront: 30 Euro
etc.

Free FPS games with item shops:
Combat Arms (Shit game, full of hackers)
APB:R (Game with potential owned by shitty company, full of hackers)
Etc.

F2P means no subscription. Not no box-fee.

If SoE charges 20 euro for Planetside 2 then it's way lower than any of the prices of other games while at the same time it offers more. Give a 3 day free trial.

Alternatively: Let me pay a one time fee or a small subscription (3 euro or w/e a month) to play on premium servers which have additional staff monitoring the game for hackers AND only allows others who paid the one time fee/sub to play on :)

As for banning creditcard.... I think people will find it very dubious to have to enter a creditcard number when they were told the game was free and then trust they won't be charged. It just makes people conspicuous. I think a one-time fee will meet a lot less resistance and people will understand and have no problem with it. I understand people find it odd or too expensive to pay a monthly fee for a video game. But has society really come so far that we find it strange to pay a low one time fee for a video game all together? :p

And for the guy saying SoE takes cheating very seriously. Well, thats what they say. And I've heard the exact words from other companies before releasing their game. APB:R being the latest. Guess what, full of hax and hardly anything being done about it :P
Every FPS player asks that question to the developers, what are you doing about hackers. And they can really only give one answer:
We take hacking very seriously and we are already working on several systems to fight hacking as well as prevent it. As you understand we can't talk about what these systems are because then it'll be easier for the haxx0rs!

Anything else is shooting yourself in the foot :p

wow pedantic much? its pretty fucking obvious i was saying it should be F2P after you pay the once off purchase fee.

Senyu

2011-10-12, 09:06 PM

For F2P, look at LOTRO. you don't become silver member until you actually buy something. Paypal is the main payment method. You can never be uber without paying money. I'm talking about bag space etc... Not epic weapons and stuff. So there are no 31337 freebiers.

Ppl buy bags, clothing, dyes, capes etc... They are doing good, and I spent a lot of money for a while and I still get online sometimes and play, when I'm not on PS1. :D

Ya but PS2 isn't a fantasy rpg. It's a scifi shooter. Keyword shooter. How many cosmetic items can you honestly get? And bag space.....really what is PS2 gona do besides sell things you can just eventually unlock or require to buy to even use. And just because they say they wont doesn't mean that they never will

Raka Maru

2011-10-12, 09:13 PM

I would buy tank skins, rifle cammo, helmet with permanent bullet holes...

The point is, I'm differentiated from banned dumbass who creates a new account for free 'cuz I bought something.

SKYeXile

2011-10-12, 09:22 PM

Ya but PS2 isn't a fantasy rpg. It's a scifi shooter. Keyword shooter. How many cosmetic items can you honestly get? And bag space.....really what is PS2 gona do besides sell things you can just eventually unlock or require to buy to even use. And just because they say they wont doesn't mean that they never will

thats exactly the point, you can evently unlock items or get them to drop in PS2...or apparently you can just buy them...ill tell you right now...if its at a half reasnoable price and the grind for it it long...ill be buying it along with anybody else in my AU guild that ends up playing. There are so many things they could charge for...soe has said they wont sell power, so some fo these may not be suitable...but it depends on your definition of that.

+XP gain.
item veh, and weapons unlock
+more xp while offline
bagspace
cosmetic items(helm...gloves...sholders...chost...feet...ca pes...hats...googgles etc.)
different skins
theres a whole lot of consumables that could be avalible...item scanners...spawn ontop of people tokens...super medpacks...
option sub to get past say BR6
custom outfit lgos, decals...whatever.
respecing offline points or transfering these points somewhere else

theres probably alot more that im sure teams of people whos job it is to comup with this stuff can figure out.

Bags

2011-10-12, 10:23 PM

Bags pace

I'mokaywiththis

Senyu

2011-10-12, 10:50 PM

thats exactly the point, you can evently unlock items or get them to drop in PS2...or apparently you can just buy them...ill tell you right now...if its at a half reasnoable price and the grind for it it long...ill be buying it along with anybody else in my AU guild that ends up playing. There are so many things they could charge for...soe has said they wont sell power, so some fo these may not be suitable...but it depends on your definition of that.

+XP gain.
item veh, and weapons unlock
+more xp while offline
bagspace
cosmetic items(helm...gloves...sholders...chost...feet...ca pes...hats...googgles etc.)
different skins
theres a whole lot of consumables that could be avalible...item scanners...spawn ontop of people tokens...super medpacks...
option sub to get past say BR6
custom outfit lgos, decals...whatever.
respecing offline points or transfering these points somewhere else

theres probably alot more that im sure teams of people whos job it is to comup with this stuff can figure out.

Must be me because half of those sound terrible. What happened to actually playing the dam game to get the stuff you want instead of teaching people you can just buy it. All the cosmetic stuff im cool with but the others.............oh well, im still gona play the game. Hope the gameplay is amazing enough to make up for it which it is sounding like it is

Bags

2011-10-12, 10:52 PM

Well, you can buy things you want. That's how the world works.

Senyu

2011-10-12, 11:58 PM

Ya but a game is supposed to be played. To unlock things after spending time on it. Its just bad teaching money=easy. Work for the things you want.

SKYeXile

2011-10-13, 12:21 AM

Ya but a game is supposed to be played. To unlock things after spending time on it. Its just bad teaching money=easy. Work for the things you want.

I already worked for the money, its hard work going to centrelink everyweek to get my money under 5 different names and claiming for kids i dont have.

I SandRock

2011-10-13, 06:23 AM

wow pedantic much? its pretty fucking obvious i was saying it should be F2P after you pay the once off purchase fee.

No need to get your panties in a bunch. I read your post as "FPS players are used to paying a one off fee, BUT to be competitive PS2 needs to be F2P (not have this one off fee"

I see now you meant that a one-off fee is normal for FPS players but to be competitive it needs to be F2P, so not have a subscription.

So we agree :P

As for creditcard requirements. That might work in the US. But in Europe most people dont have a creditcard. I got one because I buy online a lot. But I know most people dont have one. For instance my brother had to borrow mine to buy SWTOR on Origin.

I think to tap into the European Market SoE needs to support Moneybookers service. They provide both iDeal as well as direct money transfers. Or something like, whats it called, Wallie or something? You buy a code on their site through direct money transfer and then fill out the code on SoE's payment page.

It will be hard to ban those options. You'd have to start banning bank accounts or something.

I think a one-off fee is just way easier, very understandable and acceptable to every gamer and achieves the same anti-hack determent.

As for trial servers, you want a good trial experience. So I think keeping the trial period low so hackers dont use those accounts to hack is best. And just let them play on normal servers.

SKYeXile

2011-10-13, 06:52 AM

I SandRock

2011-10-13, 07:15 AM

Your regular bank cards dont even function as a debit card then?(a card that can be used as a credit card but the money comes directly out of your account) they're standard in Australia, every bank card is a debit card.

Nope. Bank Cards can only be used for PIN (I believe in Australia it was called EFTPOS or something?). So you take it through a terminal, fill out a code and it is taken off your bank account. Or internet transfers, you stick your bankcard in a little calculator thing, fill out your pincode, get like a 9digit code to fill out on the site and you login to do bank transfers. iDeal works like bank transfers but it gives a guarantee that the money will be wired to the salesperson by the bank in question. So they don't have to wait for the money to show up on their bank but can immediately process your order.

Senyu

2011-10-13, 08:17 AM

I already worked for the money, its hard work going to centrelink everyweek to get my money under 5 different names and claiming for kids i dont have.

Miss the days when ppl had to play the game........

Captain B

2011-10-13, 08:47 AM

Miss the days when ppl had to play the game........

I miss the days when you worked to buy the game in order to play it.

http://images.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/10592584.jpg

Senyu

2011-10-13, 10:06 AM

^ plus for great pic

I SandRock

2011-10-13, 10:12 AM

Personally I think things such as +10-15% experience boosts, +character slots +skins/textures/facial or body customization, +decals, +whatever else cosmetic, +different weapon LOOKS, +skip queue, server transfers, perhaps even empire transfers, respecs, etc. are fine. As long as it does not increase your ability to kill or survive either entirely through unique or better items or by skipping progression unlocks.

Captain B

2011-10-13, 10:17 AM

If you put our titles together it's "Sergeant Sergeant Major Master Sergeant". Just saying.

/derail

And I think that's probably what will happen. Smedley already mentioned guns that will be different but not more powerful. They may hit harder but fire slower and have more recoil or something, and that they'll be available in rotations (a League reference that they're basing their F2P model heavily on).

Hamma

2011-10-13, 10:39 AM

I miss the days when you worked to buy the game in order to play it.

Yea :lol:

We live in a society of instant gratification, people want shit and they want it now via any method available. Paying cash for it is just another method to make things easier.

Note: I do not agree with this but I think it is a needed evil for SOE to make money to support PlanetSide 2 in a much better way than PlanetSide 1.

Captain B

2011-10-13, 10:53 AM

I mean, games have to make money. I'm sure if these guys could make games and still support their families and we not have to spend a dime on it, they would. So games have to make money SOMEHOW. But there are a ton of ways to make money off of these games nowadays.

Buying the game alone is enough for most game companies. Throw in a cash shop for cool shit and that's extra income from most of the playerbase (if you're gonna' play, you're gonna' want to play in style). Add in expansion packs later on that you can buy as a set or upgrade your account individually through the cash shop (or wait 6-12 months for it to become available for all players). Possibilities really are endless, especially when you factor in all the cool stuff they want to add later (nautical elements, space elements, conquering land/building bases by outfit, etc.).

You just don't need to go "Okay, here's your Sherman tank." "SWEET! I get a tank for free??" "Yes, but your tank is 900 years old. Have fun getting blown up by Gauss rifles and Pulsars." "Waitwh-" *BOOM!* "Ohhh you got pwnz'd by a magcutter. Suck less, newb, and get your ass in the cash shop."

Senyu

2011-10-13, 11:03 AM

And I think that's probably what will happen. Smedley already mentioned guns that will be different but not more powerful. They may hit harder but fire slower and have more recoil or something, and that they'll be available in rotations (a League reference that they're basing their F2P model heavily on).

Oh great, so if there is a loadout I like I have to wait for it to become avaliable every couple weeks or just buy it? Ya, that sounds wonderful.

EDIT: And for the above post of developers making money, charge 8 bucks a month! Its not that expensive and supports the game

Captain B

2011-10-13, 11:15 AM

They said they like the LoL model. The LoL model is this:

-You get a variety of characters each work that you get to play with; this allows you to try before you buy, ultimately.
-You get points for playing. Notice I said playing, not winning, although you get more bonuses for winning and certain situations (like first battle of the day to keep you logging in, hopefully once a day). These points can be used to buy characters that you will always have access to (minus someone else taking that character in a match, but that applies no matter what - only one of each character in any given match) as well as skins and upgrades for your characters.
-You can purchase these points, but they are always available through regular play, and they aren't too terribly difficult to get.

Now from what I gathered from what Smedley said was that the weapons will be rotations to earn (he said "drop"; I don't know if we get a chance to earn weapon upgrades permanently from stronger adversaries or we get points to buy it or if he's just used to the term "drop" because of EQ), but that you could also purchase them outright. This would allow you to customize your character to your playstyle, although the gear itself will range from zero impact (textures and cosmetics) to minimal impact (in so much that the weapon will be different, though not inherently better).

In theory, it sounds great. Sure it sounds a little silly but the reality is:

1) Can't buy power, so there's no pay-to-win philosophy at stake; and
2) The time it would normally take to get enough kills/XP/random drop chance generator/whatever to acquire the weapon/armor/outfit would be the same from just playing it. It really isn't any different in that regard.

Sorta' like PvP. If you die to a mob you think "well shit, that sucked", but if you get PK'd by a player, oh snap, son, shit just got real. Shoes are going through monitors, baseball bats through walls, stereo speakers through girlfriends' heads; it's hell on earth. Why? Perspective. You died because you sucked and/or they (be it NPC or player) were better than you. It happens. But how you react is based on that perspective. (Personally I get more pissed with the computer - 'cause it fucking cheats!)

The philosophy and theory is solid, but as my favorite saying goes, "the road to hell is paved with good intentions." Only time will tell if they can pull it off effectively and keep things balanced and healthy. One screw up, especially early, will not be easy to redeem.

Senyu

2011-10-13, 11:25 AM

Looking in longterm if the cash shop only sells cosmetics and what you posted different weapon variants which can be unlocked, how long of a lifespan will it have? They are gona need to release content pretty regurally to keep people buying stuff from shop just to support the game.

Still rather pay 8 dollers to have access to everything and support the game in the long haul.

And computers do cheat. Watching freind play Starcraft 1 match agaisnt computer and won. Saved replay, watched it. And it showed the computer winning. At certain parts for some reason a few of his units didnt get built, and it shows him doing what he did as if he did have them. But the computer beat him and showed an entirely different scenario of it defeating him.

Captain B

2011-10-13, 11:34 AM

We're so fucked when Skynet goes live.

As far as the cash shop surviving, like I said, paying for the game itself (not the "right" to use its servers or support the game long-term) will typically be enough. There will be plenty of upgrades for customizing uniforms and gear, outfits, as well as buying weapons without having to "grind" for them. They won't imbalance the game, so it's okay. That'll throw some extra dough their way.

As they implement the other sandbox aspects of the game they want, like space combat and outfit-oriented base control, that'll probably be unlocked via cash shop. Probably something the GM or whatever can buy for his group. They'll make their money, but paying more than $10/month for an MMOFPS is just too much for most, myself included. In all honesty I get burned out on playing the same game for more than a few weeks; only reason I kept playing my old UO was because of the RP and the social dynamics, not because of the game (the game bored me back in '99 but I still played it for the interaction for over half my life).

If I paid $10/month, I'd want access to every single thing in the game at any time for free (assuming my skill tree was certed appropriately); but there would be no "grinding" or "earning" my textures, weapons, and everything else outside of getting the appropriate skill level to use them. Anything short of that would be a deal breaker for me.

Senyu

2011-10-13, 11:46 AM

10 dollers is even to much? People spend 10 for lunch usually. And most games cost 50 some 60, that would take 5-6 months to cover the cost of a game with subscription. If you can afford internet you can afford 10 a month. The benifits are better to with subscription. But take it down to 8 like I suggest and it would be even easier to afford. Take 6 months of subscription to match a boxed price game of 50 and 7 1/2 months for 60 doller one.

And with subscription every in the game would be avaible immediatly or through unlocking.

Crator

2011-10-13, 12:00 PM

They're doing a F2P model. Get used to it. They will change the model if it doesn't work out right.

Captain B

2011-10-13, 12:02 PM

All about perspective. $10/month is $120 a year. Between my fiancee' and I, that's $240 a year for one game to play together. That's no less than 5 high quality, top of the line, day of release games (and honestly, I don't even think there's that many games in a year that I would spend ~$40-$50 on). I would pay the money for PS2, but I can save up, buy it, then done. F2P after that, or pay for what I want when I want it. But for the same amount saved there are 5-10 games that can be bought for the same amount in sub fees alone (assuming the game itself is free). That's only including video games and not any other leisure activity, like going out, vacations, or even our tabletop gaming.

I'll pay $8 a month for a fully developed, highly detailed, fully fleshed out MMORPG with all sorts of town building, sieging, ship combat, open world non-consent PvP with consequences for criminals, immersive atmosphere, skill-based (instead of class- and item-based gameplay), and lots of customization on top of a player-run economy. Anything short of that I can play by myself on any of the great single player RPGs with quests galore that actually impact the world I'm in.

PS2 might have that sort of thing eventually, but until it does, it gets my money for the game, and any more I want to spice things up a bit. No more, no less.

SKYeXile

2011-10-13, 06:46 PM

I mean, games have to make money. I'm sure if these guys could make games and still support their families and we not have to spend a dime on it, they would. So games have to make money SOMEHOW. But there are a ton of ways to make money off of these games nowadays.

Not in a game like planetside, typical FPS servers are hoasted by ISP's at not charge, i guess for marketing purposes and simply because they can. So EA and Acivision...whoever dont have to pay the cost for servers or bandwidth, bar their masterservers.

PS2 is in a whole different situation, the prcessing power and bandwidth required for online games increases exponentially for each person you add to the server(this was the case for PS1 anyway) sony are goinhg to be hoasting and paying for the servers along with bandwidth, there MUST be ongoing revenue generated from PS2 for the game to survive and be profatable...because lets be serious, if the game losses them money to run, the will shut it down.

That revenue will need to come from a cash shop, subscription or possible expenasion packs...but expansion packs that spread your population out...is not going to work for PS2, so its going to have to be cash shop, with optional sub, so its attractive to FPS players who are not used to paying a sub.

Raka Maru

2011-10-13, 11:18 PM

Even on F2P games, they have special "gold" member subscriptions. They are less expensive than trying to micro transaction everything you want to do/get. The downside of this is when I get busy for a few months on a project that takes me away from the game.

So I think PS2 is heading in the right direction with F2P. Subscription is a big commitment to some ppls minds. It doesn't matter the cost. I couldn't devote any more time for WoW, but even if I miss it, I don't subscribe 'cuz I know I can only play for a long weekend. On the other hand, I jump onto LOTRO any time I want, still.

PS1 I've subscribed on/off for years but when I get busy IRL, I wind up playing like 2 days out of a month after past months of every night warfare. That is when I desub, which is bad 'cuz then I may not get on for another 3-6 months.

I SandRock

2011-10-14, 04:41 AM

Not in a game like planetside, typical FPS servers are hoasted by ISP's at not charge, i guess for marketing purposes and simply because they can. So EA and Acivision...whoever dont have to pay the cost for servers or bandwidth, bar their masterservers.

PS2 is in a whole different situation, the prcessing power and bandwidth required for online games increases exponentially for each person you add to the server(this was the case for PS1 anyway) sony are goinhg to be hoasting and paying for the servers along with bandwidth, there MUST be ongoing revenue generated from PS2 for the game to survive and be profatable...because lets be serious, if the game losses them money to run, the will shut it down.

That revenue will need to come from a cash shop, subscription or possible expenasion packs...but expansion packs that spread your population out...is not going to work for PS2, so its going to have to be cash shop, with optional sub, so its attractive to FPS players who are not used to paying a sub.

Truth!

PS. Hiiiiiiiiiiiiii! Youre my new friend since i saw you on the SWTOR forum and connected the two :p

ThGlump

2011-10-14, 12:23 PM

Well i would pay for game, i would happily play monthly sub, but i will never buy anything from cash shop in fps game. Not when there is nothing to stop hackers from returning back after banned, so i want to be free to run away from game without any regret when it become unbearable.

And if someone buys something. Theyll buy some uniform to match outfit colors, 1-3 guns that suits their playstyle and then what? Thats value of few month sub, and money run dry after. New item in shop? Nah i keep my outfit colors, dont need different appearance, it would break outfit feel. New weapon? Is it any stronger (they said it wouldnt)? No its only another variant and i already have variant that suits me - dont need. Faster XP, cert training? First 2 months maybe. Then youll be pretty high and dont need it anymore.

There wont be much viable items that they can get money from after first few months. From what theyll pay servers and constant development? Unless they make items time limited and you need to buy them again - and thats same as having monthly fee but with fp2 poison.

From my view montly sub generate more money, and with fp2 game will starve and ends up with no money for development like ps1 (due nothing viable to buy or player exodus to avoid hackers).

Xyntech

2011-10-14, 02:39 PM

From my view montly sub generate more money, and with fp2 game will starve and ends up with no money for development like ps1 (due nothing viable to buy or player exodus to avoid hackers).

The thing is, Planetside had a subscription fee and it still had minimalistic updates. The subs didn't stop it from withering and slowly dying.

Cash shops have proven to be a viable business model in many games now.

The only real question is how well the devs will be able to retain players and how effectively they will be able to minimize the number of hackers.

Retaining players will require frequent updates and/or expansion packs. Expansion packs could be tricky, since you don't want to carve up and divide your player base, but done right I think that a quality expansion pack every year or two could bring a lot of new players in and bring back old players who had lost interest. Obviously this will require that the expansions or the content updates must actually be good and improve on the original gameplay. Also, if any expansions are expected to bring in new players, they will require appropriate marketing.

As for hackers, a nominal box fee would go a long way towards limiting hackers abilities to make infinite numbers of accounts. That, along with third party anti cheat software as well as, more importantly, active admins and moderators who search out and ban offenders would round out a fairly cheat free environment. You'd at least have as small a number of hackers as you can expect in any online environment.

SOE wouldn't move towards a F2P model if they thought it would lose them money. They are a business first and foremost. The heads of the company want to make as much money as they can.

NapalmEnima

2011-10-14, 03:39 PM

From my view montly sub generate more money, and with fp2 game will starve and ends up with no money for development like ps1 (due nothing viable to buy or player exodus to avoid hackers).

"Your view" is irrelevant. The Gaming Professionals at SOE have concluded that they'll make more money in the current market (up against many other F2P games) if they are also F2P. This isn't an idle decision. You can be that meetings have been held. Charts examined. Discussions had (some may have been quite heated).

Smedly & Co thinks this is the right decision. They're both business people AND gamers.

Not when there is nothing to stop hackers from returning back after banned, so i want to be free to run away from game without any regret when it become unbearable.

That's why many people have suggested tying accounts to verified credit card numbers. I currently have ONE card, though at one point that number went as high as... 5? 6? Something like that. Each of those cards had the same billing address, where I live. Even if I invest in a P.O. box or three, that's still not free-to-create-new-accounts-at-a-whim.

And you can be that they'll be checking MAC addresses, HD serial numbers, OS licenses, and anything else they can find to distinguish computer A from computer B.

When you log in after being banned, they'll hide stuff on your HD, in the registry, maybe change some environmental variables (remember them?)... whatever they can to help them ID someone who has already been banned.

Preemptively uninstalling PS2 might be another step... make it harder for someone to create a new account just in terms of time from ban to back in game.

Lots of options. And for every technique there's a counter. And counter-counters, and so on. It's an arms race.

I SandRock

2011-10-14, 05:02 PM

There's no counter for charging a box-fee :P At least hackers are paying money to SoE then.

F2P will definitely be profitable. Just look at APB. A lot of 'us' might not spend a ton in cash shops. But in APB I never had to pay a subscription myself. I sold my in-game cash in the marketplace for RTW points which you could use to pay for your subscription. All the russians kept paying for RTW points with which they bought all my cash. After 2 months the game went bust because it wasn't popular. But I had 1 year worth of RTW points by then. That's 1 year of subscription somebody else paid for me after 2 months and it was like that for all my clanmates. There's some crazy people out there willing to waste 100s of bucks on virtual stuff.
Instead of everyone footing an equal bill like communists you'll get away with playing for free while some communist actually pays a ton :P Talk about irony.

SKYeXile

2011-10-14, 06:20 PM

Truth!

PS. Hiiiiiiiiiiiiii! Youre my new friend since i saw you on the SWTOR forum and connected the two :p

lol just trolling the SWTOR forums, EA jerks not releasing the game ina Australia...do have a beta invite though... :P

SKYeXile

2011-10-14, 06:26 PM

From my view montly sub generate more money, and with fp2 game will starve and ends up with no money for development like ps1 (due nothing viable to buy or player exodus to avoid hackers).

yea, thats where you;re wrong....in F2P game like WOT i have spent close to $300 in around 5 months of play...thats well over 5x12+box free. but that would offset people who pay nothing. My guild members have spent similar numbers.

In Free realms, I would have spent about $400.00 in a few months (trading card addict) afew weapons, some armour...i know people who spent...well lets just say more than that. F2P works.

TBH I would rather a sub model, but its been proven that games switching from a sub model to F2P have increased their playerbase and their income. So why even launch with a subscription model?

HELLFISH88

2011-10-14, 06:53 PM

Oh man, where to start...what to say that hasn't already been said....

A few things:

What was Planetside's initial problem? Marketing and exposure. FTP Allows the game to spread quickly via Word of mouth and or other social means. When your friend ask's you to play WoW, you can always counter with the Lack of Money argument, be it legitimately or simply out of laziness or disinterest. I would like to think most people will try anything free at least once. Especially those who enjoy gaming but may not be able to afford to play. I'm looking at you; people who still play Runescape and argue "they can't afford a new computer"

I think FTP will be good for Planetside 2. It SHOULD give us the exposure we have so long desired. We KNOW planetside is a Good game; therefore we just need to get people exposed to it in order for it to expand. Most of the people I speak to planetside about don't think it's a bad game....they simply didn't know it existed at all. That is BIG problem. Especially considering how over saturated and repetitive the shooter market has become. Planetside is genuinely unique. We have a Hook, and it's a damn sharp one.

I'm really excited and pleased with SOE's approach to FTP. I think the LoL Format works, Balance is the key

ThGlump

2011-10-14, 07:06 PM

SKYeXile

2011-10-14, 07:52 PM

Yea but what you pay for in WOT? Tank is one time purchase, no money after that. Rest is premium sub and consumables. Thats about it. Smed said they dont like idea of time limited equip purchases, and unless there will be some consumables in cash shop, there will be minimum purchases after first few months when ppl decide they dont need xp boost anymore.
There wont be new stronger guns every 3 months, and you dont need 10 variants of same gun. You dont need new uniform because you want to keep in outfit theme. F2P can earn money, but it cant earn it only from newcomers. There need to be something to buy for someone who play year or more. And last i want to see is stronger and stronger items in shop that you need to have to bring sales number back up.

Most of my money in world of tanks is spent converting XP, some converting gold to silver, but not alot, i make enough silver with a premium sub. But yea i convert alot of XP since i wont drive a tank that not fully equipped.

while i dont think planetside 2 can use this method of converting XP, they possibly could. SOE have said they like LOL's approtch, but i think that does directly translate into buying power, WOT's is yea you can buy power though premium tanks but converting XP is just converting XP you have ernt on one tank to use on any tank.

which SOE could in theory do, if they change their offline/leveling /xp gain system...but im unimaginative and can only ripoff systems iv already seen, im sure SOE will come up with ways to take our monies.

I SandRock

2011-10-15, 05:25 AM

People love different looks. I don't want one outfit. In APB I had a ton of outfits. A ton of different looking cars. And I get easily bored. So I love trying out weapons that are slightly different. Equal doesn't mean equal ;) For instance. Rather than have GUN A which does 5 damage per shot at 10 shots per second. You could sell gun B which does 10 damage per shot at 5 shots per second. Or one that shoots faster but with less accuracy or more recoil. Or one with a silencer but with less damage. Or not even pure combat things. Like a weapon which has a bit more ammo. Or that allows switching to your sidearm faster. Or quicker reload. At the cost of some other things.

As long as they are variations of existing weapons with slight modifications its fine with me. I'm just against weapons that behave entirely different and unique from free progression weapons or are better in every way.

Rest assured though. Even if they sell a gun that is worse in every way than every free progression gun. As long as people know its a Paid for gun they'll complain its OP. So I'd advise SoE not to bother with such things.

Even then. Looking good is half the battle. So if I can get some sexy beret from a cash shop i will.

Not to mention a healthy game will continue to attract new members who will be buying all the stuff that was already bought by others.

And lastly, Guild Wars managed to be profitable with just a box price while running their servers themselves. With the addition of a cash shop im sure PS2 can be profitable.

SKYeXile

2011-10-15, 05:47 AM

And lastly, Guild Wars managed to be profitable with just a box price while running their servers themselves. With the addition of a cash shop im sure PS2 can be profitable.

again, guild wars is totally different...i dont think planetside can sell 3 different versions of their game...oh no wait...they can...1 copy for each empire...anyway.

guild wars, being so heavily instanced their bandwidth costs and server stress it rather minimal when compared to the technical marvel that is planetside, yet alone planetside 2. though arenanet plans to release GW2 without a monthly sub and somehow make money? goodluck to them.

I SandRock

2011-10-15, 06:38 AM

again, guild wars is totally different...i dont think planetside can sell 3 different versions of their game...oh no wait...they can...1 copy for each empire...anyway.

guild wars, being so heavily instanced their bandwidth costs and server stress it rather minimal when compared to the technical marvel that is planetside, yet alone planetside 2. though arenanet plans to release GW2 without a monthly sub and somehow make money? goodluck to them.

True. But PS2 has a cash shop on top of the box-fee (if they do that) where GW was entirely free. Although I think Bandwidth will be near enough the same. It's the sheer computer/server power needed to host so many people at the same time that'll be costly.

I wouldn't be surprised if GW2 has plans to introduce a cash shop as well. They might just wait for a month so everyone gets the game and gets hooked and THEN introduce it :P

Perhaps a better example would've been LOTRO. I believe there was a news item that said they made more money in like 2 months of being F2P than in an entire year of subscriptions?

Senyu

2011-10-15, 10:49 AM

I just honestly cant see PS2 Cash shop surviving for a long period of time. This isn't a fantasy rpg. Its a shooter. And you can only do so much with a shooter when you promised not to sell power. It just doesnt seem viable in the long run. F2P works for some games. But I don't think it would work as well for PS2 as it does for others. Its a big industry game that has alot going into it. Its going to require a fair amount of money to keep it going.

Really think a Cash Shop for a shooter that will not be selling stronger weapons can support that over a long period of time?

ThGlump

2011-10-15, 11:50 AM

I SandRock

2011-10-15, 01:08 PM

You are talking from your own perspective. You are not the F2P audience that makes it lucrative. In APB:R there are people who spend 50 euro on a single gun. That's just 1 gun, out of something like 20-30 items theyve been adding. All that gun has different is that it has 1 rank 3 upgrade that increases accuracy. You can very easily get a 1 slot gun and a rank 2 upgrade through progression.

There are people who will buy almost every item in the shop. That alone might be worth 1 year of subscription otherwise. But F2P means more players will come and go easier. A greater market than subscriptions. Some of those will spend a fortune. A lot more will spend a little money here and there for a few items they'd like. Players who would have otherwise not paid for the game because of the subscription.

More and more companies are all switching to the F2P setup for their games BECAUSE it is so lucrative. And there are endless possibilities for adding new things.
Not just items, designs, customizations or services. But as they introduce sandbox elements they can charge for that too. Want to build your own base? Sure. But the materials are in the shop. Want your outfit to claim a base? Sure. But they first need to buy that feature in the shop. Want a cool voice emote that yells "FOR VANU!" sure buy it in the shop. Want a nice emote where you are smoking a cigar? Buy it in the shop. They can easily keep adding more and more items.
It's a proven concept. SoE isn't doing it because they love us so much and think it's best for us. It's because they think this is where the phat money is. If they had thought subscriptions would get them more money rest assured that's what they would've done.

Xyntech

2011-10-15, 01:46 PM

Yeah, the big thing with F2P models are the players who buy a lot.

There are plenty of players who buy a few things now and then too, which doesn't cover everything but it does help.

Then there are freeloaders who never drop a cent in the cash shop. These players are still adding value, especially in an MMO like Planetside, because they provide more bodies to shoot at.

SOE makes more money, the players get bigger battles, everybody wins.

That is, as long as cheaters are mitigated.

BOX PRICE.

xSlideShow

2011-10-15, 01:54 PM

I like to think of it this way. Free to play = never quitting the game. At least for me, if they like it and it's good the odds are they will keep coming back because there is always new content being added and if you don't need to use the cash shop to compete then your casual gamer with love it. imo

Bags

2011-10-15, 01:57 PM

while i dont think planetside 2 can use this method of converting XP, they possibly could. SOE have said they like LOL's approtch, but i think that does directly translate into buying power

Have you played LoL?

SKYeXile

2011-10-15, 10:40 PM

Have you played LoL?

hrm good point, guess you;re really not buying power since they're all meant to be balanced.

Xyntech

2011-10-15, 11:58 PM

hrm good point, guess you;re really not buying power since they're all meant to be balanced.

Also, it's not too hard to earn enough points to get any single champion without needing real money. It's just that it's impractical to try and get EVERY champion with free earnings.

This will probably be the same in PS2 though. It will be relatively easy, while still slightly time consuming, to advance all the way down any single unlock tree, but it'll be a lot harder to advance down all of the trees. Much faster to just buy everything, but that will probably cost quite a bit of money.

If someone wants to have every option open to them asap and wants to start using newly added sidegrades immediately, why not? Let them pay the bills. As long as it doesn't give them a win button.