Nades

[Draep]

One button throw or inventory select? Can't believe we never talked about this.

[Goku]

Button throw like BF? I am fine with that. No more third person humping so I don't need 2 stacks of plasmas anymore.

[TheRagingGerbil]

Inventory/belt slot.

Required to holster weapon first then you can throw grenade.

No to quick grenade.

[Traak]

Yeah, quick grenade would mean duels were ALWAYS grenade/barrage.

[Pillow]

Another question: Explode on impact or timed grenades? or both again?

[Captain B]

I say both. Oh, and quick grenades would be cool, though maybe not as fast as some FPSes where it's practically instant with the throw.

[Hamma]

I say both. Oh, and quick grenades would be cool, though maybe not as fast as some FPSes where it's practically instant with the throw.

Yea :lol:

I really prefer that it be switched to though - rather than a last second OSHIT button.

[Draep]

Another question: Explode on impact or timed grenades? or both again?

I personally like timed grenades better. Even moreso if we can time the grenades in our hands, basically allowing explode on impact of timed right. However, I wouldn't be mad if they included both.

As for my original question, I think I like quick throw grenades. They basically do automatically what you would do through an inventory selection. Then again, BC2 balanced their nades out by forcing you to carry only one unless you took a certain specialization. If we could carry more than one grenade with a selection-style setup, that would be optimal. Since there will be a gillion players on the map, I can understand not wanting to have thrown grenades at the simple push of a button.

[Sirisian]

Required to holster weapon first then you can throw grenade.

Pretty much this. I'm a big fan of holstering delays so if it's equipped in a holster slot it's a choice among many holstering options.

Also cooked grenade only. Pull out (with a regular unholster key or a quick key that you can hold) with say a 4 second fuse. Balances the grenade as an actual weapon rather than an item you just throw to do extra damage.

[basti]

Instant grenades tend to cause a lot of grenade spam. I rather see selected nades, allows for differend fire modes, like detonate on impact or 3 sec delay or stuff. :)

[Draep]

I hope they allow for suicide bombing

[Bags]

Selected, slow throw, explode on timer.

Or else it will be Grenadeside 2.

[TheRagingGerbil]

Yeah I would like to see grenades on timers only. But we need the ability to cook the grenade. Put some skill in it.

[waldizzo]

I'm fine with either quick or holstered grenades. I just don't want them to be an instant kill. I'd like to see it take multiple grenades to kill someone.

[Draep]

I'm fine with either quick or holstered grenades. I just don't want them to be an instant kill. I'd like to see it take multiple grenades to kill someone.

Another good convo about nades, how much damage should they do?

[Goku]

Instant grenades tend to cause a lot of grenade spam. I rather see selected nades, allows for differend fire modes, like detonate on impact or 3 sec delay or stuff. :)

Grenade spam was awful in BF2. I thought I was safe behind my nice 10 ft high concrete wall to only have a volley of 3 grenades come over and kill me. BC2 or even BF3 for that matter is not bad. Limiting people as others have said to 1 will help that as well unless they specialize. Grenade spam in PS can get pretty bad too due to people carrying as many as they wish and just keep throwing them down the hallway too.

[basti]

Grenade spam was awful in BF2. I thought I was safe behind my nice 10 ft high concrete wall to only have a volley of 3 grenades come over and kill me. BC2 or even BF3 for that matter is not bad. Limiting people as others have said to 1 will help that as well unless they specialize. Grenade spam in PS can get pretty bad too due to people carrying as many as they wish and just keep throwing them down the hallway too.

True, but grenades on PS are a whole different thing. They are not the high damage insta kill things that even hurt you a lot if they detonate somewhat away from you. In PS, grenades are almost useless if you dont directly hit a guy with one. I want to keep that, as it makes spam only useful to supress the enemy a bit. Dont want a grenade spam kill machine. :/

[ThGlump]

Not some instant grenade, but one button throw would be handy. Just hold weapon in one hand, grab grenade and throw it. Like 1,5s from start, 2+ till you can shoot again. Should be faster than 1s holster, 1s equip grenade, 1s equip gun. But never instant like in BF. It could be thrown with lover force/angle as you quickly throw it with low swing from belt. You can equip it for longer high swing throws.
Delay shoot-throw-shoot should be finetuned. Short - grenade spam, long - worthless grenades. Equip/fast throw doesnt matter. Its the delay that makes difference.

Timer/impact should be dependent on type of grenade, or toggleable.

[DviddLeff]

I want quick throw grenades.

However, you need to hold the button down to throw it further, and cook it by holding it for longer still. If you just tap it you literally drop it right in front of yourself.

[Talek Krell]

I like the feel of quick grenades better, but there's a fair amount of gameplay problems. Maybe you could split the difference and have pressing the button start a sequence that takes at least a second or two to complete. It wouldn't be instant, but you wouldn't have to put your weapon away to use it.

I'd like them to damaging (one or two to kill someone), but limited to only a couple for standard troops. I'm aiming for "useful but not too useful".

[Peacemaker]

Nades def took too long in PS1. A grenade button that takes about 2 seconds would be the best. The damage only need to be upped a slight amount.

[Quovatis]

As long as they have plasma grenades, I'll be happy however they are implemented. I'll miss the hate tells if they're gone.

[Xyntech]

No quick throwing of grenades, but I would like a button that puts the grenade into your hand nearly instantly, ready to be thrown. The same button could rapidly reholster the grenade if you decided you were better off switching back to your gun.

I just feel that quick grenades lead to spamming, but having to select your grenade like any other weapon makes it a little too cumbersome.

After you equip your grenade, it should default to timed explosion, with an explode on impact option as the secondary fire mode.

Cooking grenades definitely needs to be in, as does a good control of how far you are throwing it.

If you throw the grenade the moment you pull it out, it should drop at your feet. It should take at least a second of holding it before you can throw it at maximum power.

I'd like to see the ability to adjust throwing distance with the mouse wheel as well.

[Draep]

This drop the grenade at your feet concept is absurd. Imagine all the accidental TKing and team damage. Plus, it doesn't take me charge up time to throw things IRL, I just throw it.

[Rbstr]

Something on the side of quicker.

Certainly not something that requires you to put away the other weapon, then take out the nade, then pull the trigger, then hold the trigger for power, then release.

Timed for sure.
Damage has to be more than before, and lets stick to explosive and EMP.

[NapalmEnima]

Cooking grenades definitely needs to be in, as does a good control of how far you are throwing it.

If you throw the grenade the moment you pull it out, it should drop at your feet. It should take at least a second of holding it before you can throw it at maximum power.

I'd like to see the ability to adjust throwing distance with the mouse wheel as well.

If they do the "the longer you hold it the harder you throw" thing, you get cooking, and reduce fast grenade spam (because "fast" == "at your feet"). While "charging" your throw, it should be easy to switch weapon modes between impact and timed.

An option to charge the throw with the pin still in would be nice too, if more challenging to handle control-wise. Eh... "forward" and "backward" buttons on your mouse. One starts the countdown immediately, the other waits until you throw (keeps the "spoon" down). Or a click vs double-click... sounds error prone, in which case you'd want to make "pin out" the second click, just so folks aren't accidentally blowing themselves up when they think they've got a grenade they can carry around for a while.

While running away, you could "fast drop" grenades (with a cool down perhaps), but any kind of throw would take a bit of time to charge properly. Keep in mind that the in-game physics will probably make running forward and jumping a valid means of getting more distance out of a throw.

Adjusting max power with the mouse wheel sounds like a great idea too. Concur.

[Xyntech]

How about instead of dropping it at your feet, you toss it a short distance, like 6 feet in front of you.

As long as it still takes a split second to pull out and a split second to toss it the minimum distance. Just so long as it reduces the ability to grenade spam.

It's not like you can grab a grenade, pull the pin and toss it 20 feet with any accuracy in under a second in real life.

I'd just like the equip time to be quicker and have the throw time to be the part that takes a little bit of time. It would mean more time is spent aiming where and how far you are going to throw it, with less time spent selecting and waiting for the grenade to unholster.

lets stick to explosive and EMP.

I'd like more grenades, although I'm open to making adjustments where needed.

Explosive
EMP
Plasma
Flashbang
Smoke

Maybe even some of the more unusual things like a camera, or a sticky grenade.

[Xyntech]

Oops, double post.

[Coreldan]

My thoughts:

Quick throw option, but preferably with an animation of putting the weapon away and then pulling out the nade. So a proper delay (also delay to get weapon back up), but the throw would be max powered from the start. If you don't seperate cooking and throwing further away, you sorta get +/- 0. You hold the button to throw further WHILE cooking it, means it wont actually go any further before it blows :D The "hold for power" are annoying designs in any games that have had em, IMO.

As for what nades. Smokes (while performance killers) are a huge part of infantry tactics. It would make it more comfortable to be infantry while pushing. HE and EMP are must. Not sure about flashbangs, would probably say no to plasmas. Can't see them adding anything to the game, really..

[NewSith]

IMO it's TTK stats of primary weapons that should decide if it's fast-throw or holster throw. Because if you take (let's say) BF3

(SPOILER ALERT!)



a guy dies just from two or three bullets from even a dumbest pdw, so it makes no sense to nade that guy instead of just leading (as in plumbum) up his face. Grenades are no spam weapon in that case.


(SPOILER ENDS!)

If you take the original PlanetSide - no instagib and giant prime weapons TTK makes holster throw a legitimate method of limiting spam.

I'd like more grenades, although I'm open to making adjustments where needed.

Explosive
EMP
Plasma
Flashbang
Smoke

Maybe even some of the more unusual things like a camera, or a sticky grenade.

I want unusual ES grenades. More like same gool old nades, just with different looks and visual effects for every empire.

[NapalmEnima]

As for what nades. Smokes (while performance killers) are a huge part of infantry tactics. It would make it more comfortable to be infantry while pushing. HE and EMP are must. Not sure about flashbangs, would probably say no to plasmas. Can't see them adding anything to the game, really..

Plasmas served a very useful purpose in PS1 wrt DOT-ing cloaked enemies. IIRC, they did the same damage as a flag, but over time rather than instantly.

And they were much more annoying.


I'd like to see all kinds of crazy grenade types. Cameras, smoke (maybe forgelight can hang, maybe not), decoys (for different sensor types), sticky targeting beacons that assist missiles and such in getting a lock.

Maybe a sludge grenade that slowed people down? Meh. "Paint" grenade that clung to cloakers for A While.

[Bruttal]

Sticky grenades! all timed and if you hold them to long they blow up in yer hand. and Not Instiant though, need to have an animation pull the pin release the other pin and pull back yer arm. but not a fast animation then you can decide how to throw it.

[CrystalViolet]

I like the CS system. Limited nades, switch to, throw, same as PS1 but faster.

[Redshift]

i'd like holstered grenade, but i'd be fine with a dedicated holster slot.
I'd also just like to timed grenades so you can cook them if you want, or blow your arm off, whatever ;)

[Xyntech]

Some ideas for ES grenades:

NC - High Yield Grenade
A larger explosive charge, but with no shrapnel. 25% more damage than a standard grenade, but a 50% smaller blast radius.

TR - Cluster Grenade
A small charge that scatters a bunch of micro grenades. 50% larger blast radius, but a 25% reduction in damage.

VS - Shock Grenade (?)
I have the least solid idea here. I'm thinking 25% smaller blast radius and 15% less damage on the initial blast, but then it creates an electrical arc that does slightly reduced damage to everyone it jumps to, up to a maximum number of targets.

These would be in addition to the standard common pool grenades, which would provide more rounded solutions to help balance the weaknesses of the ES grenades.

[BorisBlade]

Yeah they gotta be selected. There are waaaaaay too many people in a ps fight to just let em be a quick button tap. Imagine playing ps1's indoor fights with quickbutton nades, every person would be spamming grenades like mad. You hate the thumper? imagine everyoen with one on a quick use button right along side their main gun. It would literally become Grenadeside indoors. You would be praying to get the thumper back when you see how bad it would be with quick button 'nades. But, they dont seem to make decisions based on good gameplay so, who knows what they will do.....well actually whatever BF does, they will do that.

[EASyEightyEight]

I'm all for switching to the grenade first, then throwing it. I mean, we should expect holster times, but along with many of the "modern inspirations" Sony is incorporating into PS2, weapon switch times might be among them (quick switch from big guns to pistols for example.)

I like the wind up bit, and would love to see it stay, but I do want the minimum distance to be a quick underhand chuck. Grenades should be tactical and deadly in my opinion. If you're standing on one when it goes off, you should be severely wounded at the least. Since most people won't be able to just pull out a med app and heal through spam anymore, grenades will recover a purpose lost in PS1: forcing people out of cover. Either stay behind your crates and eat the blast, or get away and face my stream of lead.

Instant throws just invite the spam. If we're going to throw a grenade, we should be vulnerable for the few moments we take to make it count. I want to discourage Quake 3 strafe fights as much as possible in my MMO tactical shooter. I do think we should have 2-3 to make count though, with more on the guys dedicated to shooting $#!%.

[Xyntech]

You hate the thumper? imagine everyoen with one on a quick use button right along side their main gun. It would literally become Grenadeside indoors. You would be praying to get the thumper back when you see how bad it would be with quick button 'nades.

I don't want a quick throw button, just a quick equip. Also, since we won't have free form inventories, I assume that grenades will be extremely limited ammo, with maybe 1 or 2 for agile and 2 to 4 for rexo.

As far as the thumper, I hope they fix that to be a bit more like a real world grenade launcher. Less useful than the current thumper at short range, more useful than the current thumper at medium to long ranges.

Grenades would take over for the thumper for indoor combat, while still being a lot less annoying (due to limited ammo and no quick throw), while the thumper would still be somewhat viable indoors and much more viable in longer range outdoor engagements.

Edit:
I'm all for switching to the grenade first, then throwing it. I mean, we should expect holster times, but along with many of the "modern inspirations" Sony is incorporating into PS2, weapon switch times might be among them (quick switch from big guns to pistols for example.)

That's actually probably the simplest and best solution to improving the equip time for grenades. Every weapon gets a "switch to" time, which ignores whatever weapon you are currently holding and bases the entire time to switch on what item you are pulling out.

Big weapons always take a little while to unholster. Rifles and shotguns take a little less time, but still a noticeable amount. Pistols take very little time and grenades take even less, but after you throw the grenade it will take a little while to switch back to a rifle or whatever.

Presumably small pieces of equipment like REKs or Med and Engi tools (or whatever the equivalents are in PS2) would have unholstering times similar to a pistol.

[Sirisian]

That's actually probably the simplest and best solution to improving the equip time for grenades. Every weapon gets a "switch to" time
You end up with a matrix to define the switch times between weapon choices for balance reasons. Changing from a sniper rifle to grenade or AV to grenade don't need to be the same as a pistol to a grenade or knife to a grenade or back. That is for every weapon unholstered you have a time to switch to something else. This came up in a few threads like the dual wielding thread (http://www.planetside-universe.com/forums/showthread.php?p=593081&highlight=matrix#post593081) when people realized that balancing holster times for weapons needs to be complex for balancing reasons to allow flexibility.

[CutterJohn]

I'm fine with single keypress grenades. This does not mean they must be instant, I just want a single button to access them, since thats all that is needed.

I want all of you to hold something in your left hand. A jug of milk should work. Now grab a soda can and hold it near your hip with your right hand. Now pull that soda can away from your hip, press the top with your thumb, and throw it. See? You can toss a grenade without switching weapons too. If you refuse to remember that PS grenades were button activated, then stick your index finger out from your left hand and pull an imaginary pin.

Sure, A game like BF2/BC2 does the grenades too fast. Its almost instant. But you don't need to holster your gun to do it.. Its a one hand operation. Maybe if you have AV or some other extremely heavy weapon you can say you have to put it up to pull a grenade. Thats fine.

I just don't like unnecessary button pushes.



As for grenade types..

-Smoke(high capacity ventilation makes it not very useful indoors, because seriously that would be annoying).
-EMP
-Frag
-Limpet(I.e. sticky AV grenade, good vs MAXs and vehicles.)

[Marth Koopa]

I want Team Fortress Classic grenades, both function and the types it has.

4 second delay to explosion, can be held while counting down, does not interfere with use of guns

Concussion grenades can be used to disorient enemies, or propel yourself long distances at blazing fast speeds with proper timing and positioning

Gas grenades that intoxicate anyone that comes into contact with it, distorting vision, making everything green, and providing false information to your interface

MIRVs, grenades that explode into more grenades

Caltrops. Leave tacks all over the floor to impede enemy movement, from feet to tank treads

[Sirisian]

4 second delay to explosion, can be held while counting down, does not interfere with use of guns
uh oh. Be careful with that line of thinking. We have balance to think of. Should someone wielding a jackhammer be able to pull a grenade while shooting? Or a MCG user? (Ignore realism, just think from a balance perspective if such an operation makes sense). Again I don't want to over reference the dual wielding thread but a lot of people stressed limitations like that. Being able to pull a grenade while holding a pistol or a rifle is fine to me. Being able to throw a grenade while simultaneously shooting a MCG into a hallway is not okay with me. At that point you can explain it however you want such as "it's a 2 handed weapon so you must holster that weapon before holstering a one handed grenade weapon". That kind of logic is fine and balances heavy assault for me.

Same goes for say a sniper rifle. Logically a person using a sniper rifle has no need to access a grenade. If they are in a situation where they need a grenade they should not have a sniper rifle out in their hands.

Also what's your definition of "interfer[ing] with use of guns"?

[Marth Koopa]

I was joking

TFC is known for its super grenade spammy gameplay

[Sirisian]

I was joking
:) ah. Still I made good points. I have friends that enjoy TF2 gameplay so I'm never sure what some people's preferences are with regards to these things. There are always people at the extremes.

[Captain B]

Specializing with the skill tree could make quicker grenade use more balanced, as well.

[Sirisian]

Specializing with the skill tree could make quicker grenade use more balanced, as well.
Could you explain that argument? Specializing for a single class to have that ability?

Anyway summarizing it looks like we have a few main views. (Tell me if I missed some).
A1) Timed Fuse, 4 seconds with cooking
A2) Timed Fuse, Longer you hold harder you throw with cooking
A3) Timed Fuse, 4 second fuse with cooking, scroll wheel whole holding or while holstered to set throw strength
A4) Optional impact detonation and timed fuse
A5) Optional impact detonation and timed fuse with cooking

The whole quick button equip vs holster seems to be just a convenience thing if I'm getting everyone's opinions right. Meaning if you have a grenade holstered you either have:
B1) Hit number to equip then hold left mouse to throw/cook
B2) Hit grenade hot-key to throw/cook
B3) Both options (maybe depending on weapon the quick-key isn't available)

So you end up with combination of choice A cross choice B.

The major thing is balance wise if you can't throw a grenade from all weapons then clicking a grenade hot-key would go through the holster step before pulling the grenade. However, no one has said if they want to restrict grenades to certain weapons. Just something to keep in mind and discuss.

So yeah this is probably how a poll would look (if 15 options were allowed).

Not sure how I feel about the longer you hold stronger you throw argument. The idea of throwing a grenade at your feet seems a bit odd. I mean if you just throw at max strength the grenade will hit the ground and slow down however you might overshoot. I really like what someone suggested with the scroll wheel. Basically allowing you to scroll quickly to set the strength from say a medium to a hard throw.

[Traak]

I thought grenades were close to perfect in PS1.

[Krowe]

I'd like a quick grenade option, but have how long you hold the button down determine how far it goes, with maybe quarter-half a second be maybe 3-5 feet in front of you.

[Brusi]

Another good convo about nades, how much damage should they do?

More damage to yourself than to anyone else, i rekon!

That would encourage more tactical use

[Talek Krell]

Perhaps grenades could be given a dedicated slot, and then switching to them automatically "slings" your current weapon (as in across your chest) and equips the grenade? That way you could use grenades without having to go through the entire holster/unholster process but retain the ability to have one readu without also having it cooking.

[waldizzo]

I want all of you to hold something in your left hand. A jug of milk should work. Now grab a soda can and hold it near your hip with your right hand. Now pull that soda can away from your hip, press the top with your thumb, and throw it. See? You can toss a grenade without switching weapons too. If you refuse to remember that PS grenades were button activated, then stick your index finger out from your left hand and pull an imaginary pin.


Then try throwing it with nothing in your off hand. I bet you throw it further and with better accuracy.

Like so:
Monty Python-Holy Hand Grenade - YouTube

[TacosWLove]

No Cloaka Plasma NADES! PWEEES!

Also, I agree. Holster your heavy weapon before you can throw it, maybe allow pistols and submachine guns quick access to one or two nades, but then they have to "reload" them on their easy access clip. Kinda like strippers in Vegas

[Captain B]

Let the cert tree allow for better throwing dynamics, such as: quick throws, more accuracy, more distance, holding more grenades through a Grenadier tree, requiring training for the plasma grenade (even if it's just the first cert on the tree), and many many more. Imagination works.

[CutterJohn]

Then try throwing it with nothing in your off hand. I bet you throw it further and with better accuracy.

That would be fair. 33% or 50% faster throw time and range with weapons holstered.

[Talek Krell]

Let the cert tree allow for better throwing dynamics, such as: quick throws, more accuracy, more distance, holding more grenades through a Grenadier tree, requiring training for the plasma grenade (even if it's just the first cert on the tree), and many many more. Imagination works.Just +1ing this. I like the idea of one of the classes having a "grenadier" specialization.

[Draep]

Let the cert tree allow for better throwing dynamics, such as: quick throws, more accuracy, more distance, holding more grenades through a Grenadier tree, requiring training for the plasma grenade (even if it's just the first cert on the tree), and many many more. Imagination works.

Also +1nning. Maybe you could get some sorta thumper at the end of the skill tree or something. I honestly don't think grenade spam will be as awful in PS2 as it was in the first. Perhaps every indoor fight won't revolve around the same hallway and set of stairs, which were conducive to grenade throwing and other explosives bein used.

[Brusi]

Nothing wrong with grenade spam as area denial. It's getting killed by random grenades that people throw in the off chance that they will get a "free" kill that gets to me.

[Tapman]

If they allow players to throw grenades without holstering their weapons, they either shouldn't be able to fire the weapons during the toss or their CoF turns into 5x worse than a non-scoped sniper. Let people cook their timed grenades at the cost of not being able to shoot effectively, if they can't/don't then people should be able to throw grenades back. Also please make sure that if someone shoots a thrown grenade, it detonates, and make sure damage is appropriate depending on whether you are standing/crouching/prone.

Yes to sticky grenades and more variety, although I think that only a grenade launcher of some sort should have the explode-on-contact option. Let people figure out how to time their cook for the scenario if they want that result.