Tweet from Game Designer TwoThreeSix: "The Engineer is the Demolitionist"

[LZachariah]

I'm extremely excited to be able to contribute a little recon for the game to all of you! Anyone who's read my posts knows that my favorite part of this game is Combat Demolitions (ie, infantry weapons + explosives). Well, I was very curious when I read Higby's recent mention (in that awesome 6-page PC Gamer article) about how Infiltrators get a good spread of combat engineering-style gadgets (including, to quote Higby, "C4"). Well, I wanted to know, who has the best bombs? I'm not talking about entrenched weapons or force fields. I'm talking about shredding a motherfucker with a shaped charge, ball bearings, or an incendiary blast. I wondered, perhaps, do Engineers and Infiltrators get the same amount of explosives, and they're differentiated by the Engineer being able to build "other" things and the Infiltrator being able to cloak?

NOPE. I asked Higby, who forwarded to the question to TwoThreeSix, whom Higby said is the FPS Game and Balance Designer. So here is my conversation with them:

LZachariah: @mhigby So Higby, who has superior explosives, Infiltrator or Engineer?

MHigby: @LZachariah @twothreesix is the designer for FPS mechanics and class balance, lets see if we can convince him to pay attention to twitter...

TwoThreeSix: @LZachariah @mhigby The Engi is the demolitionist. It'll have the best and most amount of explosive tools.



I am so fucking excited. Yes, it's only a tiny tidbit, but it's about my absolutely favorite part of this game.

Happy to contribute!

~Zachariah

[Hamma]

Nice good find! :D

[LZachariah]

Thanks, Hamma! :D My pleasure!

[TRex]

If thats anything like the engineer from warhammer online, count me in . Spanner in one hand to melee em, drop a turret and blast em with a shotgun while throwing grenades for maximum mayhem.

[LZachariah]

I dunno if Engineers will have "grenades," those are more of an assault-style weapon. I could see Light Assault (and Heavy Assault) having grenades, and Engineers having more complex, tactical explosives, for instance:

Proximity-Triggered Antipersonnel Explosives (like Bouncing Betties and Claymores)

Remote-Detonated High-Yield Explosives (like C4)

Proximity-Triggered Anti-armor mines

EMP explosives (remote detonated or proximity)

And who knows what else! The fact the TwoThreeSix said that the Engineer gets the most and best explosives, I assume there will be more than just those three or four kinds that I listed (as we've already heard that Infiltrators get C4).

[Crator]

Love engineering class! Always have. Can't wait to hear more!

[DviddLeff]

I hope that infils will have smaller explosives that are effective, but cant take out a whole tank in one go; its easy enough in BF games to stick C4 on vehicles even without being invisible if there is enough cover around.

[SKYeXile]

lets hope this is a new guy and the balance guy from PS1 got shot....if they even had a balance guy.

[Raymac]

Nice work, Zach. It's great at this point that 1 sentence can be enough to get us excited about something. This really is the fun part of development for us fans. There's a whole world of possibilities and we aren't yet jaded by the reality of what's left out or what falls short of expectations.

I just love the word "demolitionist".

[LZachariah]

Many thanks, Raymac :D Definitely my pleasure :)

[Xyntech]

That's awesome. Infiltrators using explosives is such a great gameplay element, so it was good when we got confirmation that infiltrators will get something like C4.

I am glad that infiltrators aren't getting the "biggest and best" explosives though. That kind of shit shouldn't just be snuck in behind you while your back is turned.

Engineer sounds like it's going to be a lot of fun. I hope the medics are just as interesting.

[CutterJohn]

So long as they minimize the amount of automated defenses(including mines..).

[Zulthus]

Mines are fine.

[Xyntech]

I don't really see the problem with any automated system, as long as it is easy for someone like a cloaker to disable them relatively easily if the defenses are left unattended.

As long as they aren't overpowered, I just don't see them hurting gameplay. It's not like an AI turret is the same as some randomly spawning PvE mob. I think some people take the whole "Pure PvP" think a little to literally. Does Team Fortress 2 stop being a purely PvP game just because of the engineers sentry gun (ignoring bot players)? What about fire and forget missiles? That's a form of AI.

I personally would rather not see engi's setting up fields of turrets like in PS1, but a few automated guns here and there could add to the game more than it subtracted.

I guess this is a pretty divisive topic though.

Either way, pretty cool that engineers will be taking a more active role in destruction in addition to construction.

[Malorn]

You could make the same statement for BF3. Though Support has quite a lot of kaboom potential as well.

[krnasaur]

BF3 doesnt have cloakers.

[Hamma]

BF3 doesnt have cloakers.

So THAT is why I keep getting shot.

[TRex]

With 'demolitionist' I keep thinking of the Libyan demolitionist from C&C red alert , the one who straps all the tnt around himself and runs into stuff and blows up. Would make for some interesting line breaking in ps2 , and an alternative to the max at times.
Maybe not the most politically best thing to demonstrate the game with to a new audience perhaps.

[CutterJohn]

I don't really see the problem with any automated system, as long as it is easy for someone like a cloaker to disable them relatively easily if the defenses are left unattended.

As long as they aren't overpowered, I just don't see them hurting gameplay. It's not like an AI turret is the same as some randomly spawning PvE mob. I think some people take the whole "Pure PvP" think a little to literally. Does Team Fortress 2 stop being a purely PvP game just because of the engineers sentry gun (ignoring bot players)? What about fire and forget missiles? That's a form of AI.

I personally would rather not see engi's setting up fields of turrets like in PS1, but a few automated guns here and there could add to the game more than it subtracted.

I guess this is a pretty divisive topic though.

Either way, pretty cool that engineers will be taking a more active role in destruction in addition to construction.

I didn't say none, just minimized. PS1 got a bit crazy with the mine spam towards the end. To use the TF2 example, imagine if TF2 allowed you to spawn as engy, place your turret, then switch to something else and run off to battle.

[Traak]

So THAT is why I keep getting shot.

LOL post of the week.:lol:

[Crator]

Mines fields, spitfire turrets, all had counters to them in PS1. And spits were easy to see and kill (except for Shadow Turrets) if you use a little situational awareness. It takes time to deploy CE in PS1. You were limited in how many shadow turrets you could deploy anyways.

A good engineer, in PS1, would know where to place the CE before any enemies arrived to get kills with it. That takes some playing time to figure out these sorts of tactics.

[LZachariah]

Yeah, and that's why I always loved Combat Engineering over (for instance) MAX'es. While MAX'es are amazingly fun, I always preferred the tactical nature of setting up explosives and CE devices (...mostly explosives) in anticipation of what my enemies were going to do. There was a potentially HUGE payoff if you deployed your CE devices wisely. You could take out a tank, a group of infantry, etc, in just one moment of tactical brilliance.

So I'll be dividing my Vanu between whatever assault weapons Engineer gets (rifle, SMG, whatever) and pure explosives leveled and diversified as much as I can. I am fucking psyched.

~Zachariah

[Xyntech]

I didn't say none, just minimized. PS1 got a bit crazy with the mine spam towards the end. To use the TF2 example, imagine if TF2 allowed you to spawn as engy, place your turret, then switch to something else and run off to battle.

Good point. How about if the things you place auto deconstruct if you aren't an engi for more than 5 minutes?

[CutterJohn]

That'd be cool. I'd even be happy making it more powerful or easier to drop mines if that were the case. I just don't like the constant forgotten minefields lying around, from a bunch of people dropping some mines because hey, why not? before running off to do something else. If you want to set up defenses, fine, but you should have to stay and defend.

[Senyu]

What makes me a good demoman?

[Atuday]

What I am wondering because of this is if you can strap a bomb to yourself or to a team mate for when the chips are down. Think about it. 500 vs 20 my money is on the 500 but if one of those 20 is a real crazy fucker why he should not be allowed to kamikaze a troop transport or a mass of infantry is beyond me. Personally I don't think it would be very effective under anything but the most perfect of circumstances but if such an opportunity arose then why would you not go and explode yourself on a mass of charging troops?

[Xyntech]

I'm sure there would be people up in arms about suicide bombing and bullshit, even though it's in a fictional reality where you respawn when you die so why not strap a bomb to yourself?

On the other hand, I'd much rather be able to be a cloaker and stick some C4 on the back of an enemy and wait until he gets near a cluster of enemies before detonating it. C4 that you can stick absolutely anywhere (except for force fields or things like that) would be god tier.

[TRex]

Yeah, and that's why I always loved Combat Engineering over (for instance) MAX'es. While MAX'es are amazingly fun, I always preferred the tactical nature of setting up explosives and CE devices (...mostly explosives) in anticipation of what my enemies were going to do. There was a potentially HUGE payoff if you deployed your CE devices wisely. You could take out a tank, a group of infantry, etc, in just one moment of tactical brilliance.

So I'll be dividing my Vanu between whatever assault weapons Engineer gets (rifle, SMG, whatever) and pure explosives leveled and diversified as much as I can. I am fucking psyched.

~Zachariah

Its this level of enthusiasm (which is great btw) for a particular class that makes me wonder if psu will have its own class sub-forums etc in its new incarnation. I know we'll have access to all the classes, but there will be a few dedicated to a particular methodology trading ideas and player made vids etc that add to the whole immersion of the game and community :thumbsup:

[LZachariah]

That would be awesome, I definitely hope so. And I'm glad that someone feels where I'm coming from. Thanks much, TRex :)

[Talek Krell]

I wonder if maybe combat engies will get satchel charges rather than/in addition to C4. Those might be more suited for taking out fortifications (tank traps, trenches), whereas C4 would be better for planting on vulnerable things like terms and generators. I love the battlefield diversity that combat engies create.

But the fucker that keeps putting mines under the catwalks so that my lib triggers them when I fly under can go right to hell. :p

[Crator]

But the fucker that keeps putting mines under the catwalks so that my lib triggers them when I fly under can go right to hell. :p

LOL! And why do you think he does that? Cause you fly your lib there! So, resolution to this issue? Don't fly your lib there! :P

[Raymac]

I remember the days of the ANT bombs which were basically suicide car bombs. While I thought it was a cool tactic, there was something about it that didn't sit right. Perhaps it was just the timing since the Iraq war was in full swing. I'm not sure if they changed it because of the politics or just because it's not what the ANT was designed for.

I'm still not sure how I would feel about a car bomb or suicide vest type of weapon just because of the real life connection. Even though PS is war, it's fantasy and nothing like real war, so I could probably do without such a direct reminder of one of the ugliest tactics being used in real conflicts today.

Like I didn't have a problem with the "No Russian" level in MW2, but at the same time it had a much different and darker feel than I prefer in a game like this.

[Talek Krell]

LOL! And why do you think he does that? Cause you fly your lib there! So, resolution to this issue? Don't fly your lib there! :PIt was an awesome way to dodge incoming fire until one day I did and "b'deep b'deep b'deep THOOM"

[Crator]

It was an awesome way to dodge incoming fire until one day I did and "b'deep b'deep b'deep THOOM"

Ok, so ask the devs nicely if you can have an EMP blaster gun attachment on your fighter jet in PS2. But seriously. Not like you're going to be able to fly a Lib like that in PS2 anyways. Not with the flight mechanics they are using.

[SKYeXile]

It was an awesome way to dodge incoming fire until one day I did and "b'deep b'deep b'deep THOOM"

lol the best thing is people putting mines on bridges, then you fly underneath them all and set them off while taking no damage, so lol.

[Traak]

I don't just want explosives. I want barriers, T-walls, bridges, bunkers and deployable turrets that are sturdier.

[Traak]

Ok, so ask the devs nicely if you can have an EMP blaster gun attachment on your fighter jet in PS2. But seriously. Not like you're going to be able to fly a Lib like that in PS2 anyways. Not with the flight mechanics they are using.

What flight mechanics? The "We can hover like little faireys flitting around the garden" flight mechanics that they have already announced?

If you thought that the flight mechanics excluded hovering, then you, like me, are to be disappointed, I think.

I was hoping the planes would act like planes. Instead, they are evidently going to ask like farmocopters, just like in the original game.

[Xyntech]

Not like you're going to be able to fly a Lib like that in PS2 anyways. Not with the flight mechanics they are using.

I intend to make you eat those words, I don't care how long or how much practice it takes!

Lol, seriously though, I can't wait to play with the new flight mechanics and see what sorts of maneuvers are possible. I also look forward to the game having better hit boxes on obstacles so that if it looks like I can thread my way through a cluster of trees, maybe I actually can.

[Raymac]

What flight mechanics? The "We can hover like little faireys flitting around the garden" flight mechanics that they have already announced?

If you thought that the flight mechanics excluded hovering, then you, like me, are to be disappointed, I think.

I was hoping the planes would act like planes. Instead, they are evidently going to ask like farmocopters, just like in the original game.

You wanna cry about hovering? Grab 1 AA unit, problem solved. You're welcome.

[Traak]

No, let them hover all they want. As long as their weapons don't work below 200m and also not while hovering.

You're welcome.

[Tikuto]

I suspect teleportation in the form of Rebirthing facilities, which already is in PS1 but is somehow feels 'under the hat'. Engineers deploying translocation devices would be rather cool as it would compensate for not being able to knock-down facility walls. And none of that Ancient Technology whack - this is human technology only!

[Raymac]

No, let them hover all they want. As long as their weapons don't work below 200m and also not while hovering.

You're welcome.

You want to take close air support out of the game? :rolleyes:

The only way an aircraft can hover low to the ground is if there is ZERO AA. In which case, you get what you deserve, just like you can't stop a tank if you have zero AV. Instead of crying about it, have 1 person, just 1 person pull an AA max.

[Crator]

What flight mechanics? The "We can hover like little faireys flitting around the garden" flight mechanics that they have already announced?

If you thought that the flight mechanics excluded hovering, then you, like me, are to be disappointed, I think.

I was hoping the planes would act like planes. Instead, they are evidently going to ask like farmocopters, just like in the original game.

I intend to make you eat those words, I don't care how long or how much practice it takes!

Lol, seriously though, I can't wait to play with the new flight mechanics and see what sorts of maneuvers are possible. I also look forward to the game having better hit boxes on obstacles so that if it looks like I can thread my way through a cluster of trees, maybe I actually can.

Am I mistaken in saying that the only said the empire specific aircraft (Reaver, Mosiquito, Sythe) were the only aircraft that would be able to hover? And they also said you would have to work at hovering it, it wouldn't just hover on its own.

[Xyntech]

I don't recall any specification about which aircraft would or would not be able to hover. Given that they all seem to be VToL in nature, I imagine that all of them will have at least a certain amount of ability to hover, to take off and land if nothing else.

Perhaps the ES fighters will be the only aircraft that can hover effectively, while the Galaxy and Liberator would be too large and unwieldy to effectively hover around the battlefield without screwing up and crashing.

Yes, they did say that hovering would be more complicated in PS2, where you won't be able to go use the bathroom and get a beer while leaving your aircraft in hovermode. I welcome the change. It won't do anything to discourage certain idiots that aircav isn't overpowered, but it will certainly make piloting harder and a lot more fun, engaging and rewarding. It will be a lot harder to come to a dead stop and just use your aircraft like a floating turret too.

[Talek Krell]

Ok, so ask the devs nicely if you can have an EMP blaster gun attachment on your fighter jet in PS2. But seriously. Not like you're going to be able to fly a Lib like that in PS2 anyways. Not with the flight mechanics they are using.I think you're taking this conversation far too seriously. :rolleyes:

lol the best thing is people putting mines on bridges, then you fly underneath them all and set them off while taking no damage, so lol.Aaaand now I have to try that. :lol:

[Crator]

I think you're taking this conversation far too seriously. :rolleyes:

Really?

[Crator]

.

[Talek Krell]

Really?
Well you're talking like you think I'm actually complaining. I think. . .

[Crator]

No, not really. I was just speaking my mind about what I thought about it. And being a little facetious at the same time.