My fear for PlanetSide 2

[Hamma]

I'm not sure if I have touched on this at all but I think this warrant's its own thread.

My fear for PlanetSide 2 is the micro transaction and skill training system make certain people kings of the battlefield and leaves newer players in the dust. This becomes more of an issue the longer the game is out.

Let me elaborate.

In today's FPS gaming we have unlocks galore, 30,000 attachments for every weapon of your choice including 4x ACOG's for shotguns! What this creates is an uneven playing field of people running around with crazy weapons that newer players don't have access to. Even myself as a semi-casual player get frustrated with weapons people are running around with.

Sadly this is the nature of the beast of gaming today, companies want to squeeze every last bit of time and money out of a particular game.

Anyway - part of me yearns for gaming of old. Back in the days when you spawned and everyone was on an equal playing field with equal access to all items. Games were based on skill and not how much time you spent sitting in front of your computer.

Anyone else have that fear? Do you think that somehow PlanetSide 2 can avoid it with the skill system they are going with?

[TRex]

I agree fully and have the same concerns.

Even the forecast 'normal' set up with 20% boost and squad wide buffs themselves add an element of real concern. On paper it might sound ok, but in reality if you add in +100% experience for long time players it bodes ill for any new player just starting out.

Being a pvp game, cosmetics will go only so far , and I worry the temptation to buy things like super med packs or speed boosts and stuff enter the possibilities in the hope of generating more cash shop .

[Traak]

There will be whole teams of people working on making progression rewarding, while making new people capable of doing useful damage.

It will be a lot better than PS is now, with cheaters owning the game, and anyone else out in the cold.

[Tikuto]

Anyway - part of me yearns for gaming of old. Back in the days when you spawned and everyone was on an equal playing field with equal access to all items. Games were based on skill and not how much time you spent sitting in front of your computer.This. I'm thinking I know what you mean.

In many newly-launched games I see the quality of gameplay diminishing by the rewards of progression. How the most basic set of equipment and statistics is at first week of the game really ought to be reamed through-out the game somehow. If it isn't simplified and enjoyable where it becomes more complicated the Devs have harder time working on fairness, which only adds to this wheel of fate.

The idea in my head right now has to be illustrated on paper.

Basicly too much <ingredient> spoils a dish.

[SKYeXile]

Yea i certainly have that feeling. Offline leveling is something i dont really like, while its fair to keep casuals and vets balanced in progression its not really fair to new players, especially not new casual players. its one of the reason i never touched EVE...even as a hardcore player. I would really much prefer the merit system expanded or a use based system that you could later use points to then roll-over into other skill trees.



As for the cash shop and free to play, its a double edged sword. F2P attracts some people because its free and they dont have to pay, lets face it you need some of those to bolster numbers. (reserves was good) and while its a proven formula to make more profit, its also unattractive to alot of players because F2P games generally get a bad wrap for being p2p (thats: pay2pwn).

and ill be the last person to say this and i hate myself for it. it god dam well ruins my immersion in the game. I hate it how you can cheapout and just go oh yea...ill just get out my wallet and procede to CRUSH. I like it in PS1 and WOW, you login, you all pay, you have access to the same stuff and gear and its a simple matter of playtime/skill ratio to how good your character is equipped.(dont hate me for saying wow)

and i hate companies strategies for making me spend money, the elitist prick that i am cant scrub it up, so if there is a weapon or power up available in the shop or something that my loadout or character needs to maximise its potential...I WILL buy it and i hate myself for that.

i think they can avoid pay2pwn and a cashshop with their skill system, will they though???

[SgtMAD]

There will be whole teams of people working on making progression rewarding, while making new people capable of doing useful damage.

It will be a lot better than PS is now, with cheaters owning the game, and anyone else out in the cold.

ya, whole teams.

[Hamma]

My basic beef with gaming these days is all they do is appeal to selfishness. People are more concerned with unlocking attachment Y for weapon X than they are playing a game. This snowballs and before you know it people could care less about the game and more about the garbage unlocks.

This really started with MMORPGs. I saw my own team fall into this trap when it came to getting items in game and raiding. Now that has been passed on to FPSs where you can grow more powerful with each passing level, and get more and more pointless cosmetic unlocks.

This scares me quite a bit for PlanetSide because the original was, in my opinion the perfect blend. You could easily retrain things if you wanted to switch and when you got a MCG or Jackhammer.. it was an MCG or Jackhammer. It didn't have a 300x ACOG with IR sensors as an option after 30,000 kills.

[SKYeXile]

My basic beef with gaming these days is all they do is appeal to selfishness. People are more concerned with unlocking attachment Y for weapon X than they are playing a game. This snowballs and before you know it people could care less about the game and more about the garbage unlocks.

This really started with MMORPGs. I saw my own team fall into this trap when it came to getting items in game and raiding. Now that has been passed on to FPSs where you can grow more powerful with each passing level, and get more and more pointless cosmetic unlocks.

This scares me quite a bit for PlanetSide because the original was, in my opinion the perfect blend. You could easily retrain things if you wanted to switch and when you got a MCG or Jackhammer.. it was an MCG or Jackhammer. It didn't have a 300x ACOG with IR sensors as an option after 30,000 kills.

Its all about the epics, its what keeps us together.

[TRex]

I like the sidegrade aspect to ps2 philiosophy , and in time I hope expansion of the game comes in that direction rather than increasing levels , and giving us more places to fight in and stuff to fight with.

Thing is , most who have been in ps1 since early days had the ethos of the lvl 1 taking on the lvl20 and having a chance depending on ability . It's a brilliant ,simple concept.

Most of the people who have become online players since have grown up with the quest to be more epic via gear ,can't equate the idea of a level playing field and success is min/maxing items . Games like cod , you buy them on a friday , get all the unlocks etc and max stuff out by saturday , and ready to shell out for the new modernwarfare out the following week.

I wonder how the likes of ps2 are going to keep the interest of these people. It may be just the thing they need to see ps2 and shake them out of this rut. But if there's a prominant button in bottom corner of the screen saying 'buy, buy,buy' , and soe needs the income , who knows where it will go.

If ps2 takes off , and us ps1 people become a drowned out minority , the idea of the lvl1 v lvl 20 could become a myth .

[Mastachief]

I whole heartedly agree and have the same fears. I only hope that they build on the launch like EVE and make it so there is ample opportunity to get up to speed. How ever this is a long term game not a release once a year COD reheat. So its needs this progression to keep the people and so long as SOE continue to work and add to the game there is no reason for it not to go for the next 6-8year or even long if they can bring graphical updates in.

All this said though i maxed out my main char in Pside 1 Christmas 2003 and still have an active subscription but i do know that people have left once they have maxed out as they are that kind of player.

[Draep]

Come on Hamma, you're better than making a thread like this. When people make a thread with the words "scared" or "fear" in the title, it looks pathetic to be frank. What you should maybe be scared of is getting in my way on the battlefield. The game is gonna be decent no matter what and you're gonna play it no matter how much people say it sucks.

[TRex]

It's not pathetic, just a reasonable word of caution that some feel worthy stating.

[CutterJohn]

This scares me quite a bit for PlanetSide because the original was, in my opinion the perfect blend. You could easily retrain things if you wanted to switch and when you got a MCG or Jackhammer.. it was an MCG or Jackhammer. It didn't have a 300x ACOG with IR sensors as an option after 30,000 kills.

Easily retrain things? You and I have different definitions of easy. I always felt that the 24 hour wait time between uncerts was pointlessly excessive. 24 hour complete unlocks would have been much better, but the best would have simply been no obstacle other than returning to sanc.



I think PS2 is going to be an improvement on PS1(aside from the patient few who stuck it out to BR40) in being able to do anything. Granted you won't be able to do everything quite as well, or have all the options, but it seems to me that you'll be able to get the basic options for most everything pretty quickly.

We'll also see how much they let me pay for. I dislike level/unlock grinds far more than I dislike spending extra money.



But yeah.. I miss the old days of FPS gaming. Jump in, you have access to all the weapons, and its good. Everything is reasonably balanced against each other, and every player is on a reasonably equal footing because of that, personal skill notwithstanding. Even a BF2 system wasn't bad, where the unlocks were just minor variations on weapons, and didn't open up grossly different capabilities.

[Hamma]

Come on Hamma, you're better than making a thread like this. When people make a thread with the words "scared" or "fear" in the title, it looks pathetic to be frank. What you should maybe be scared of is getting in my way on the battlefield. The game is gonna be decent no matter what and you're gonna play it no matter how much people say it sucks.

Really? :lol:

When you respond to a thread like that it looks pathetic.

It's still a legitimate fear many people have. I really don't like the way gaming has gone in the past 5 years and I am afraid PlanetSide could meet that fate. Will I play it? Of course I will - I play Battlefield 3 and I hate the unlock system. That really isn't the point at all. But I guess you can just read past it all if that's how you want to roll. ;)


I think PS2 is going to be an improvement on PS1(aside from the patient few who stuck it out to BR40) in being able to do anything. Granted you won't be able to do everything quite as well, or have all the options, but it seems to me that you'll be able to get the basic options for most everything pretty quickly.

Yea I am hoping this is the case also, on the surface it appears like it's a good middle ground.

But yeah.. I miss the old days of FPS gaming. Jump in, you have access to all the weapons, and its good. Everything is reasonably balanced against each other, and every player is on a reasonably equal footing because of that, personal skill notwithstanding.

Indeed! The good old days. ;)

[Miir]

As long as an occasional player can purchase the same upgrades that someone that plays 24/7. That will balance things out.

I'd rather just pay a couple bucks and unlock the upgrades that I want rather than spending time trying to get 100 kills to get them.

[waldizzo]

I'm hoping the sidegrades allow for people to customize to their play style, as Duke said above, and not does not create "haves" and "have nots"

I do share the same concerns as Hamma, but am not as worried about it. Since this game is going to be f2p with cash shop, I expect I'll be dropping some money on stuff in the store. Probably less money than the standard MMO business model would cost me. If this game was box cost + subscription fee + paid DLC / cash shop, then I'd be more concerned.

[Hamma]

I'm hoping the sidegrades allow for people to customize to their play style, as Duke said above, and not does not create "haves" and "have nots"

I do share the same concerns as Hamma, but am not as worried about it. Since this game is going to be f2p with cash shop, I expect I'll be dropping some money on stuff in the store. Probably less money than the standard MMO business model would cost me. If this game was box cost + subscription fee + paid DLC / cash shop, then I'd be more concerned.

Good points :thumbsup:

[Goku]

That is why I still like PS current cert system. There isn't any damage modifiers, you can change your character on the fly, and you know exactly what you are getting. A BR1 can still kill a BR40 technically barring any skill difference. I love taking higher end weapons off people on BF3, seems it gets me quite a few more kills when I have them. Just have to see what happens I guess.

[Baron]

That is why I still like PS current cert system. There isn't any damage modifiers, you can change your character on the fly, and you know exactly what you are getting. A BR1 can still kill a BR40 technically barring any skill difference. I love taking higher end weapons off people on BF3, seems it gets me quite a few more kills when I have them. Just have to see what happens I guess.

BR1 with standard armor and Suppressor vs. BR40 with the same ....

BR40 still can have Personal Shield, Health Regen, other Implants so not taking skill into account there is still a SLIGHT advantage.

I don't see that SLIGHT advantage being a big deal. You can easily use some situation tactics to overcome that.

[Crator]

We'll just have to wait and see about this I think. Lot's of speculation. I do hope that people scream loud if there's is something in the cash shop that gives too great of an advantage over someone else who hasn't (upgrades that cannot be obtained by other means).

[MrSmegz]

Was there any mention of buying Special ammunition from the shop, like special warheads for missiles or HE Gauss bullets. I would hate for the game to turn into an ammo money sink having to constantly buy up the 'good ammo' to have the edge.

[TRex]

Was there any mention of buying Special ammunition from the shop, like special warheads for missiles or HE Gauss bullets. I would hate for the game to turn into an ammo money sink having to constantly buy up the 'good ammo' to have the edge.

damn, I'd have to rethink my faction choice since Higster stated we waste 99% of our bullets :cry:

[Tasorin]

I'm not sure if I have touched on this at all but I think this warrant's its own thread.

My fear for PlanetSide 2 is the micro transaction and skill training system make certain people kings of the battlefield and leaves newer players in the dust. This becomes more of an issue the longer the game is out.

Let me elaborate.

In today's FPS gaming we have unlocks galore, 30,000 attachments for every weapon of your choice including 4x ACOG's for shotguns! What this creates is an uneven playing field of people running around with crazy weapons that newer players don't have access to. Even myself as a semi-casual player get frustrated with weapons people are running around with.

Sadly this is the nature of the beast of gaming today, companies want to squeeze every last bit of time and money out of a particular game.

Anyway - part of me yearns for gaming of old. Back in the days when you spawned and everyone was on an equal playing field with equal access to all items. Games were based on skill and not how much time you spent sitting in front of your computer.

Anyone else have that fear? Do you think that somehow PlanetSide 2 can avoid it with the skill system they are going with?

KGB concurs 100%.

This has been an active discussion on our internal forums and one of my main concerns with the Business Model of a blended "Fremium" and "Cash Store". The vast majority of our Clan base is old time game vets with Careers, Families, and Lives outside of gaming. Most of us cannot sit down in front of our machine for 8 hours or more a day like in times past with UO, EQ, SWG, or even the dreaded DFO. Neither do we want to macro in order to be competitive in skills required to compete in PvP as was needed in some of the recent attempts at a quasi-sandbox MMO.

Frankly the idea of being able to log in, pull a blaster off the rack, and get in game, and be able to contribute based on skill rather then "power for sale" or domination due to vet time sink advantages is going to be one of the cornerstones to the longevity of PlanetSide 2 and could ultimately play a major part in financial success or failure for this title.

Smedley, Higby, this is your chance to break the mold and reshape the MMO landscape. Smed's had his chance in SWG (Pre CU) which was utterly amazing during its time. We all know where that lead too, not saying its Smed's fault, downward direction and ego empires had a lot to do with the demise of SWG.

Personally I would like to see a "Fremium" model akin to DDO or LotR, but with a little more restraint from hosing people down with having to get the paid content in order to actually be a part of the contribution on a competitive level. I as well like the EvE skill model in a PvP centric title as it levels the playing field for those who don't have the active free time to sit in front of your machine for extended periods of time. The EvE skill system would have to be heavily modified in order to fit the PS skill system and the rate of returns adjusted accordingly so that a new player has a chance to compete in a reasonable amount of time. It is defiantly not perfect, but I think its a step in the right direction.

As to the "Cash Store", SoE and the powers that be must resist the financial temptation to sell power which alters the PvP landscape and gives advantages to those who engage in purchasing the ability to dominate with an altered or trade off weapon. I think that if they can resist this revenue stream and limit the "Cash Store" to aesthetics and other items with ZERO impact on PvP play, they will have found a balance that almost no one has been able to achieve.

But until SoE releases more and actually states its position and defines the Business Model we are left to speculate and take pause to deliberate on how we can make it all work for both player and company advantage. We all know SoE is going to have to generate revenue, and that the Corp. has given hurdle rates for profitability in a defined time line and that unfortunately is going to play a major role in the decision process.

SoE, if you make it Epic, they will come...

[CutterJohn]

BR1 with standard armor and Suppressor vs. BR40 with the same ....

BR40 still can have Personal Shield, Health Regen, other Implants so not taking skill into account there is still a SLIGHT advantage.

I don't see that SLIGHT advantage being a big deal. You can easily use some situation tactics to overcome that.

You've an odd definition of 'slight'.

"power for sale"

Take money you would have spent on box + sub(presumably about $50 + $180 per year) that you no longer have to spend because the game is free, purchase cash shop items, enjoy the game having spent approximately the same amount of money as you would have anyway.

[Xyntech]

Also, offline training. You won't be left behind just because you can't play as much as some.

[Graywolves]

Should've made this an AGN Broadcast.

[Brusi]

Microtransactions... yeah...

I feel the same way, less so for the directly unbalancing aspect and more so for the overall feeling that microtransactions can have on a game, where people who don't spend feel like they are playing a different game to those who do spend.

I'm obviously going to be spending on this one... but i still think it matters for the success of the game.

It can feel a little discouraging as a newb. At least when you start a game late and are playing catch up, you know that no one can still simply overtake you with $$.

[Hamma]

Should've made this an AGN Broadcast.

It probably still will be :D

[Raymac]

"Fear" is probably a strong word for how I feel about. "Concerned but optimistic" is probably more accurate from my point of view.

First, I think it's important to note that from Day 1 and repeatedly since then, Smed and the Devs (that sounds like a band name) have not just mentioned but been very adamant that a new player will be able to stand toe to toe with a veteran player. This tells me that this is a foremost concern on the minds of the devs and is intregal to how they are designing the game.

However, just because it seems to be an extremely important part of the development process does not mean it is easy. Striking that right balance of progression and power is a very delicate high wire act that may very well need to be fine tuned even after launch.

Thankfully, the devs have a wealth of information and experience from the 8.5 year lifetime of the original Planetside to draw from to make sure that these sidegrades, along with future sidegrades will not leave new players at a huge disadvantage. They clearly understand the importance of this which is why I remain "concerned but optimistic."

[krnasaur]

NO, with 1v1 combat that will make a difference, but with planetside the heavy teamwork will triumph personal upgrades 10 out of 10 times

[DviddLeff]

BF3 is my current gaming squeeze, and obviously it has unlocks which you have to play for to earn. Aside form a handful of tools none of the unlock-able weapons are overpowered from my playtime of a dozen or so hours (not like the M60 of BFBC2).

The tools themselves (C4, defib paddles, mortar, etc) are not hard to unlock within a day or two of play and even then the game is perfectly playable without them.

Now I imagine PS2 as having cash options for these unlocks, to bypass the time spent playing. This should not be a problem, as long as the weapons, vehicles and tools are mostly balanced in the first place.

Case in point: one of my outfit kiddo/barneyninja bought the game yesterday and at level 1 was the MVP in the second game he played; using the starting equipment his skill and tactics with the rest of us were the most important factor.

[Atuday]

In response to the OP of this thread I would like to use the game Red Orchestra2 as a prime example of leveling balanced well. In RO2 no matter how high level you are a bullet still kills you. I like having my bolt action POS rifle because no matter what if I can see you I can kill you in 1 shot. While it gets easier to kill some one with the rifle as you level up and it also becomes easier to stay alive the amount of difference it makes is very small. A bullet is a bullet is a bullet and hurts like hell when you are hit with one (I would know) so trust me when I say that I actually trust the Devs on their %20 difference rule that they have previously stated.

[Xyntech]

Right. This isn't an MMORPG where a level 20 can mop the floor with a dozen level 1's. This is an FPS where bullets are lethal at any level, against any level.

As long as any item you can purchase can also somehow be gotten fr free and as long as they stick to that whole "no more than %20 difference" thing, it should be fine.

[Tapman]

I am cautiously optimistic about this financial model. Usually when you see an industry shift like you have in gaming from subscription to microtransactions, the end-result is always that the provider will be making more money which is essential for the continued development we have been promised. The devs have said hammered it home that they will not be selling power, as long as they keep that promise then I am fine with it. I see it as a way for them to let those that know their own play style to get right into the fight with their preferred sidegrades. That can and will sometimes translate into newer players seeming like they are a lot better than the folks that choose to slog through unlocking them on their own at first, but given the amount of time that everyone around here will be putting into the game I don't think we have much to worry about.

I see myself dropping a few spare dollars in the tin from time to time for cosmetic stuff but I intend on unlocking and exploring as much as I can with the time I have available for gaming. I won't have to feel guilty about wasting money when I have less time to play. Not being forced to drop $60 up front and $180/year could be one of the best things to ever happen to Planetside, although I think it will make anti-cheating enforcement a bit more difficult.

[Tikuto]

In an ideal world ...
blablablah awesome.
Unfortunately we're not an ideal world. O_

[SavageB]

To early and not enough info to be "scared". I for one, welcome MT's as it will help the dev team do what they wanna do. In saying that selling power is still a nono.

[EASyEightyEight]

The times of Unreal Tournament, Tribes, Quake, Half-life, Counter-Strike, and DOOM are long dead. With the introduction of broadband internet and "reputation" over said internet, long term goals in games become a selling point. A lot of the guys in here are just resisting change, while the gaming newbs see this all as completely normal. It's the Rock-n'-Roll of the gaming industry.

Crappy players will fall pray, with or without a 20% difference in power (on either end.)

Good players will still walk all over their enemies even against a 20% difference.

Newbs will always be newbs however, even if they're CoD masters, and unless they walk into Planetside with someone to hold their hand through their first steps, they may as well be playing in traffic.

[Bruttal]

This is why backpacks should stay.... give everyone a chance to use them

[Tapman]

The times of Unreal Tournament, Tribes, Quake, Half-life, Counter-Strike, and DOOM are long dead. With the introduction of broadband internet and "reputation" over said internet, long term goals in games become a selling point. A lot of the guys in here are just resisting change, while the gaming newbs see this all as completely normal. It's the Rock-n'-Roll of the gaming industry.

Crappy players will fall pray, with or without a 20% difference in power (on either end.)

Good players will still walk all over their enemies even against a 20% difference.

Newbs will always be newbs however, even if they're CoD masters, and unless they walk into Planetside with someone to hold their hand through their first steps, they may as well be playing in traffic.

We shall tell them, "Welcome to a real war, private!"

*To be read in the voice of him (http://myfilmviews.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/full-metal-jacket-original.jpg) or him (http://www.ragemaker.net/images/Angry/stare.png)*

You are right, but it should be noted that there will be a handholding system, us. There will be enough vets that get into it early such that by the time the masses start showing up, there will already be a small but dedicated structure regarding command. The reason this is important is the mission system, it has been stated that new players will be dropped into missions that will have basic instructions, and will put him in an open squad. Obviously, everyone else in that squad has been playing longer to some extent so they have people to follow, observe, and possibly connect with an outfit through. This should go without saying, but the controls MUST and most certainly will be basic enough for any casual FPS gamer to already know, but I do want there to be the deeper controls that Planetside had as the experience of always learning about a new tool that you can use to further tailor your HUD and whatnot is awesome. Anyway, these new players will likely die a LOT just as they did in Planetside, but it should be noted that there was nothing wrong about that. Part of the reason Planetside was so great was that you had this immersive experience of being one small person in a big and dangerous world, forced to die and be reborn as often as your skill/tactics determined in the pursuit of victory. Becoming a good player has little to do with the sidegraded weapon you prefer when compared to your ability to adapt to your environment and willingness to work in a team, let alone skill!

A big concern I have is that we will lose some folks who don't want to or can't buy a sidegrade and they assume that is the reason they are being killed so often, due to the learning curve we are going to establish. There is a large community of veterans of this war who have been around as long as 8 years while maintaining organized outfits, think of how much we are all going to know from the get-go. Our communal hunger for this game has us jumping on every bit of information we get during development and we are going to have the advantage of closed-beta access as well, depending on how they make that happen. However, if instead of monthly subs you have a cash shop that will sell cosmetics and sidegrades that you can unlock in the game if you have the time and patience for it, you will ensure easy access which encourages larger numbers, therefore this worry is eased, QED.

TL;DR I think this thread could be summed up with: Please for the love of all things good and holy, keep your word and don't sell an unfair advantage. We are all excited, especially about no sub fees, and we want to trust SOE but we are worried because it hasn't been finalized and released.

[Brusi]

This is why backpacks should stay.... give everyone a chance to use them

I loved the Warhammer 40K Spess Marheen system, where you can use your killers loadout for for one life at next spawn. Really evens the playing field, and also gives you a taste of what you are grinding XP for...

[Zulthus]

I completely agree. As I said in another thread, selling sidegrades IS selling power. You buy a gun with 50% more damage but say 50% less accuracy, you just made yourself twice as powerful indoors as the guy that doesn't use the cash shop. A gun with 50% more accuracy but 50% less RoF will be more powerful outside than the guy who doesn't use the store. The ONLY way to avoid selling power is to ONLY sell cosmetic upgrades.

I would so much prefer a subscription over a cash shop because;

A)Still supporting the developers with cash while maintaining balance
B)No, CutterJohn, paying a $15/mo sub fee to "unlock all in-game content" is NOT the same as F2P while paying $15 a mo in the cash shop. Don't use that BS argument for the sixteenth time. (I know you didn't in this thread yet, but you probably will.)

[Xyntech]

%50 more damage at %50 less accuracy is a terrible sidegrade.

A good sidegrade would be something more along the lines of:

%10 more damage, %30 less accuracy (actual numbers subject to playtesting)

A good sidegrade can't give so much of an increase that it overwhelms the whole idea of a downside. An extreme example would be to give a weapon %1000 more damage and %1000 slower rate of fire. In this example, it wouldn't matter that you'd shoot so slowly, because you'd suddenly be given the ability to kill people with a single body shot. Just shoot it once and switch to a different gun. It would be a free kill.

Obviously %50 more damage isn't going to be as extreme a change as my example, but it is already heading too far in that direction.

Secondly there is the important fact that a good sidegrade needs a significant tradeoff, one that goes above and beyond the bonus you get to the other stat.

If you get 20% increase in rate of fire, you get a 25% reduction in damage (again, just example numbers)

The idea is that you start with a baseline weapon that is balanced. Then you give it a boost that is just good enough to be worthwhile to use, but not so good that it changes the entire weapons dynamic. Then you counter that buff by nerfing something else about the weapon and you keep nerfing it (or pick something else to nerf) until the gun performs no better than the original gun on average, sometimes until it actually performs worse on average (if the buff is useful enough in certain situations).

So yes, the sidegrades will have times where they are better in certain situations. However if those sidegrades are well balanced, their advantage will never be very large and will always come with a significant weakness.

[Zulthus]

Then why would we need a cash shop in the first place if they perform the same or worse? You'd pay $5 to have a gun that doesn't noticeably shoot faster, be more damaging, or fire more accurate? You're either selling power in a cash shop or there's no reason to have it aside from cosmetic items.

[SKYeXile]

Then why would we need a cash shop in the first place if they perform the same or worse? You'd pay $5 to have a gun that doesn't noticeably shoot faster, be more damaging, or fire more accurate? You're either selling power in a cash shop or there's no reason to have it aside from cosmetic items.

Cash shop would bypass grnidng, for example the base skeeter, reaver and cythe might all just come with the 12 or 200mm guns on it, but to upgrade them for air - air might be the next leavel then air - tank then air - infantry, to bypass all that you could perhaps just buy the air - infantry loadout.

speculation offcourse but thats the typical thing with cash shops, you're buying shortcuts.

[Zulthus]

Fine reason I guess, but this is a game and you shouldn't be able to buy shortcuts. You bought it to play it, not jump ahead of everyone else because you have lots of $$$. Doesn't matter in the end anyway I guess. Just my opinion on the thing.

[SKYeXile]

Fine reason I guess, but this is a game and you shouldn't be able to buy shortcuts. You bought it to play it, not jump ahead of everyone else because you have lots of $$$. Doesn't matter in the end anyway I guess. Just my opinion on the thing.

well this was one of my fears I posted earlier, maybe thats just my take on it and it wont work like that, but it does in other F2P games like world of tanks...kinda.

[Crator]

Then why would we need a cash shop in the first place if they perform the same or worse? You'd pay $5 to have a gun that doesn't noticeably shoot faster, be more damaging, or fire more accurate? You're either selling power in a cash shop or there's no reason to have it aside from cosmetic items.

Cash shop would bypass grnidng, for example the base skeeter, reaver and cythe might all just come with the 12 or 200mm guns on it, but to upgrade them for air - air might be the next leavel then air - tank then air - infantry, to bypass all that you could perhaps just buy the air - infantry loadout.

speculation offcourse but thats the typical thing with cash shops, you're buying shortcuts.

Options. Allows for a PS1 Reserves type scenario, but better. Because the objective is to pull the player into the game, getting them to ultimately want to play it to the point that they do end up spending money to play.

[Talek Krell]

My basic beef with gaming these days is all they do is appeal to selfishness. People are more concerned with unlocking attachment Y for weapon X than they are playing a game.If nothing else Hamma, you can probably stop worrying about people focusing too much on progressing themselves. One of the benefits of a skill system that isn't related to how or how often you play is that you can do whatever you want and not feel like you're slowing yourself down.

I loved the Warhammer 40K Spess Marheen system, where you can use your killers loadout for for one life at next spawn. Really evens the playing field, and also gives you a taste of what you are grinding XP for...That's probably wouldn't work as well for PS2, but it was fucking brilliant for Space Marine.