can we have cities?

[moosepoop]

hi guys, who likes the idea of having actual cities as potential battlefields? without traces of civilization ps1 felt so empty.

id love to fight under huge skyscrapers or desolate ruins.

[Hamma]

I don't think we will see this, but we have been told we will have "Urban Combat" which could mean just enclosed spaces to fight and move through.

[Coreldan]

I don't think it would be impossible.. Like, they would probably have to make the continent like quarter of a size of a "normal continent", cos urban warfare always brings more vertical playground, but personally I think it could be done if they just wanted to..

[Draep]

I hope we do see this, it would present a whole new dynamic to the fight. It would make tanks and airpower less useful and infantry a necessity while still keeping with the outdoor battle theme. I imagined a continent that contained a large city, ringed by fortresses.

[Canaris]

Urban combat was on the wish list from when PS2 was just announced, the last I heard from it is that they weren't going to do any very large urban zones but we would have bases/towns/outposts to fight over for the urban theme.

Unless that's changed. I'd still love to see some ruined metropolis that could be fought over.
maybe something like the former Capital City TR before the NC came a knocking with their big guns to "liberate" the opressed people at the same time the VS came with their technology to "enlighten" the inhabitants but the three factions seemed to have turned the place into another Stalingrad.

Why do they still fight over the ruins of a dead city? IT'S THE DAMN PRINCIPLE!

Urban combats still on "my" wishlist ;)

[FastAndFree]

Why do they still fight over the ruins of a dead city?

http://www.blastwave-comic.com/comics/20060501.jpg



Btw, didn't Smedley mention something about ruined cities when asked about urban combat at the Fan Faire?

[TacosWLove]

As long as whatever they do isnt in a damn cave, ill have happys :)

[moosepoop]

personally, i hated core combat. i got so confused and lost, and when u die u usualy have to climb the maze all over again.

if city combat is not feasable right now, we ever get an expansion, i woukld like cities, not magical crystal caves.

[XPquant]

The ruined colony capitol would make a great continent.

[FastAndFree]

http://www.blastwave-comic.com/comics/20060501.jpg



Btw, didn't Smedley mention something about ruined cities when asked about urban combat at the Fan Faire?

WTF :eek: How did that turn into a space whale? (Gone With the Blastwave #1)

edit - And now it's back. Did anyone else see that?

[Baneblade]

Remember, SOE considers CC to have added urban combat to PS1.

[Canaris]

Remember, SOE considers CC to have added urban combat to PS1.

I think by now, SOE knows their player base didn't agree ;)

[Ailos]

I think something like the inside Citadel from Mass Effect - a massive orbital station city built by the Van - would work very well within the scope of PS.

[Captain1nsaneo]

You know that scene in the sky scraper where the helicopter comes out of nowhere and blows the window out? Make the helicopter a scythe.

Seriously would love it, helipads where load stars could drop off tanks. Sky bridges between towers that double as drop points for galaxies. Ramps that mags can afterburn off of and jump between buildings. And just think of the stuff the jump troops could get up to! Just don't miss and fall! Maybe underground parking networks for vehicles to move unseen and protected from AV until they come out of ramps to raid the ground floor lobby and first spawn point.

Ok, this needs to be done.

[Trolltaxi]

Caving was like a profession in PS1. There were outfits good at it, and there were people playing for years and still got lost even in Supai.

Ruined cities would not fit into the plot. There are only few terrans (not TR, but settlers coming from Earth) to inhabit a whole new world, human race haven't needed to build metropolises, not even large towns. A typical auraxian city may be more like a village, and a village wouldn't really serve the purpose of urban combat. Thinking a bit further on it the facilities as we see them are almost capable to serve as the habitat of the 50.000 settlers.

A base is about 200x200 meters. That area could mean home for hundreds or even one thousand people (a small private room or 2 for a family, maybe a bath+toilet combo, but eating and entertainment areas are common - you know, the usual "overcrowded city in any sci-fi"). A continent with 10-13 bases, 1000 people in each would mean home for 10.000-13.000, 10 continents provides home for 100.000-130.000 (+sanctuaries).

There is no need to build anything else. Just the bases could provide living for the pioneers of Auraxis.It may be overestimated, but if i half it, it is still almost enough, and there may be areas untouched by the war of PS1.

Vanu could have built cities too - but they are said to long gone, and finding those cities requires some digging. Archeological ruins are not the best places for 'urban' combat either. Most roofs are missing, and they provide too much cover. It would be hardly playable...

I think that bases will have a bit more complex courtyard and that will provide the purposes of 'urban combat'.

[Raka Maru]

Question about proposed cities idea. Does this mean a civilian area or old city converted to military stronghold?

What I liked about PS1 was you can grab your layout and go. WOW, UO, LOTRO were good in their own way until I had to keep up with my gear upgrades via auction house, ingame mail, crafting, etc...

I could see a civilian class that likes to make new weapons after collecting resources and a safe area to do crafting as long it wasn't required to advance. I purposely ignored any crafting in some of the RPG's after I found my fun came from questing, but some of these RPG's were almost required to have some kind of crafting to advance.

I know this is unlikely, but EVE Online has a very intricate commerce system and the skill tree at least was compared to in the PS2 discussions.

[Canaris]

Question about proposed cities idea. Does this mean a civilian area or old city converted to military stronghold?

What I liked about PS1 was you can grab your layout and go. WOW, UO, LOTRO were good in their own way until I had to keep up with my gear upgrades via auction house, ingame mail, crafting, etc...

I could see a civilian class that likes to make new weapons after collecting resources and a safe area to do crafting as long it wasn't required to advance. I purposely ignored any crafting in some of the RPG's after I found my fun came from questing, but some of these RPG's were almost required to have some kind of crafting to advance.

I know this is unlikely, but EVE Online has a very intricate commerce system and the skill tree at least was compared to in the PS2 discussions.

no we're not talking social zones like the cities from traditional MMO's, Planetside doesn't need them. We're taking about a city that's of stratigic military importance and the three sides are fighting for control of it or what's left of it.

[Atuday]

Have you guys looked at some of the latest screens? If you want vertical combat I have a feeling there will be a lot of it. Some of those canyons are very deep.

[Vash02]

Caving was like a profession in PS1. There were outfits good at it, and there were people playing for years and still got lost even in Supai.

Ruined cities would not fit into the plot. There are only few terrans (not TR, but settlers coming from Earth) to inhabit a whole new world, human race haven't needed to build metropolises, not even large towns. A typical auraxian city may be more like a village, and a village wouldn't really serve the purpose of urban combat. Thinking a bit further on it the facilities as we see them are almost capable to serve as the habitat of the 50.000 settlers.

A base is about 200x200 meters. That area could mean home for hundreds or even one thousand people (a small private room or 2 for a family, maybe a bath+toilet combo, but eating and entertainment areas are common - you know, the usual "overcrowded city in any sci-fi"). A continent with 10-13 bases, 1000 people in each would mean home for 10.000-13.000, 10 continents provides home for 100.000-130.000 (+sanctuaries).

There is no need to build anything else. Just the bases could provide living for the pioneers of Auraxis.It may be overestimated, but if i half it, it is still almost enough, and there may be areas untouched by the war of PS1.

Vanu could have built cities too - but they are said to long gone, and finding those cities requires some digging. Archeological ruins are not the best places for 'urban' combat either. Most roofs are missing, and they provide too much cover. It would be hardly playable...

I think that bases will have a bit more complex courtyard and that will provide the purposes of 'urban combat'.

Read the first part of the background fluff.

They were the VPs and managers of the original conglomerates and now they were going to control the new businesses. Of course, Jones realized the bosses weren’t expecting to do any of the hard labor by themselves, so they brought along the civilian workforce, men and women paid to join the mission to build the new cities, factories and more. Once done they would return to Earth to collect their creds. Finally, because the businessmen never went anywhere without protection, they brought along the third group that made up the N.C.’s: the highly paid and highly dangerous mercenaries.
http://www.planetside2.com/news/oct12OriginCh1Pt1.html

They brought along civillians to build the colony and then return home where more people would come eventually. With further reading you would see that then they have been there a while, 175 years. Its not like they just sat there and twiddled their thumbs for nearly two centuries.

[Brusi]

I'm sure that everything built in times of peace, would have been either destroyed or repurposed as a defensible position during this neverending war. For that reason, i would be happy so see loads of ruins of what may once have been little outpost towns along main supply routes or sitting at crossroads.

No need to model giant detailed spires and high-density habiplexes everywhere really, just enough bombed out buildings to allow for some decent room to room combat and break up the open, vehicle loving terrain.

[Trolltaxi]

Read the first part of the background fluff.

http://www.planetside2.com/news/oct12OriginCh1Pt1.html

They brought along civillians to build the colony and then return home where more people would come eventually. With further reading you would see that then they have been there a while, 175 years. Its not like they just sat there and twiddled their thumbs for nearly two centuries.

"Perhaps I should have known it was a pipe-dream. If I had, I wouldn’t have all this blood on my hands. If I had, seventy-five thousand men, women and children would be safe in their bedrooms on Earth, and not wherever here is, on the other side of the universe, lost and with no hope of ever returning home. "

75.000 on the spaceships arriving to Auraxis.

http://www.planetside2.com/news/oct20Backstory4.html

[moosepoop]

do u guys have some kind of phobia against tall office buildings?



i propose that instead of making the caves again, make ruins of skyscrapers. then u get vertical fighting thats fun.

[Wrath]

CC wasnt that bad some of the best fights i had in PS1 happened down there have to admit those fights all happened within a week of the bfr's coming when everybody was down there getting attuned.

my point is when there where proper fights down there they where really fun , the mistake sony made was there was no real incentive to go down there so people never went down there.

[Trolltaxi]

do u guys have some kind of phobia against tall office buildings?



i propose that instead of making the caves again, make ruins of skyscrapers. then u get vertical fighting thats fun.

I just don't want to see any element that doesn't fit into the story. Who needs skyscrapers when the whole human race on the whole Auraxis was less than a district in a metropolis? And who has time to build them in 175 years and ruin it?

Auraxis is a pioneer world, it's not Coruscant...

[Vash02]

"Perhaps I should have known it was a pipe-dream. If I had, I wouldn’t have all this blood on my hands. If I had, seventy-five thousand men, women and children would be safe in their bedrooms on Earth, and not wherever here is, on the other side of the universe, lost and with no hope of ever returning home. "

75.000 on the spaceships arriving to Auraxis.

http://www.planetside2.com/news/oct20Backstory4.html

Did your eyes glaze over when you were reading the quoted part of my post or something?

The backstory can be interpreted in different ways. Dont hammer down good ideas because it doesent comply with your own preconceptions.

[Draep]

I just don't want to see any element that doesn't fit into the story. Who needs skyscrapers when the whole human race on the whole Auraxis was less than a district in a metropolis? And who has time to build them in 175 years and ruin it?

Auraxis is a pioneer world, it's not Coruscant...

The way you're talking, it would detract from the massiveness of gameplay. A global war on pioneer world sounds boring.

[Captain1nsaneo]

Well let's see, that's 75000, assuming we had a population growth rate of 2.5 and that our starting group were of all ages and that we could get ~4 generations and that people died (-2 multiplier) at the time of the war starting up we'd have somewhere around 225000 people. (Though there would probably be more as the amount of land up for grabs and expansionary mindset might have that growth rate up at 4 which would give us 675000 people if my math is right.)

Also large cities would spring up where the ships established landing zones as they would be the primary hubs of commerce and the first settlements.

[moosepoop]

I just don't want to see any element that doesn't fit into the story. Who needs skyscrapers when the whole human race on the whole Auraxis was less than a district in a metropolis? And who has time to build them in 175 years and ruin it?

Auraxis is a pioneer world, it's not Coruscant...

to be frank with you, i dont give a monkey about the story.

if the story was important we would be having hybrid quest npc/shooter system+ pve. or at least some damn cinematics.


fighting over a farming village is boring storywise anyways. thats like america invading canada to occupy tim hortons.

[Brusi]

HAha!

[Trolltaxi]

Did your eyes glaze over when you were reading the quoted part of my post or something?

The backstory can be interpreted in different ways. Dont hammer down good ideas because it doesent comply with your own preconceptions.

My eyes are OK, but I was thinking of a calculation like captain1nsaneo did for us.

Well let's see, that's 75000, assuming we had a population growth rate of 2.5 and that our starting group were of all ages and that we could get ~4 generations and that people died (-2 multiplier) at the time of the war starting up we'd have somewhere around 225000 people.

You can still call it my own preconception, but I still don't see why anyone would build skyscrapers when it isn't needed at all. Why not medieval castles, that would be so cool to fight in one, or why not WW1 trenches?

I'm not hammering your idea (who am I to do it?) just because I don't like it. Don't get me wrong! Urban warfare would be cool and I do hope that courtyards will serve this purpose with their size and complexity. Neither am I in possession of the one and only true vision of PS2's Auraxis. I just added my two cents why I think cities (like we know them) would not fit in the world of PS2.

[Trolltaxi]

The way you're talking, it would detract from the massiveness of gameplay. A global war on pioneer world sounds boring.

Don't forget the respawn, that effectively multiplies the number of the combatants! ;) 100.000 immortal, unkillable soldiers can make pretty large conflicts!

[Baneblade]

Human psychology would put the growth rate up to third world standards on a frontier world so far from earth. So Auraxis should be designed to have supported millions.

And even a million people would create a pretty large city.

[EVILoHOMER]

As long as they leave the horrible Core Combat bullshit from Planetside out and keep the cities on the surface then it might be good. Saying that I did love the zip lines...

[Xyntech]

As long as they leave the horrible Core Combat bullshit from Planetside out and keep the cities on the surface then it might be good. Saying that I did love the zip lines...

I wouldn't mind it if we had maybe one area more like CC with the ziplines and such, maybe with a few additional interesting touches like being able to walk on certain walls/ceilings, like in Prey. I think at least one environment could support this kind of alien environment, although I wouldn't try to make a bunch of them if I were developing the game.

I wouldn't mind seeing some different, more plain, naturalistic caves to fight in though. Maybe an entire area that has places that you can capture, but no dedicated spawn points. Force everyone to bring in their own spawn equipment :evil: No ziplines, just winding tunnels and cliff faces.

Between realistic caves, alien caves and city ruins, as well as regular base fights to a lesser degree, I think urban combat would be pretty well covered.

On the other hand, I'm not getting my hopes too high until we hear them talk about putting stuff like this into the game. For now, I'm expecting to only get base fights out of that lot. At least at launch.

I kinda hope that they add new areas more gradually anyways. If they did add a more alien cave, why not just keep it to a single one? Put extra work into it and make it really awesome, but why force several alien caves when just having one would probably be enough? As long as it's a large enough environment for large numbers of players to enjoy it at once.

It could add a lot more sense of story if they very deliberately revealed one new location at a time, instead of just being all "Hey, this new thing popped up, here's a handful of new areas to fight in", it would be more like "Such and such location has been discovered, explore it's depths, unlock it's secrets, take control of it before the enemy does" and incorporate some story elements specific to that one cave, instead of to a bunch of mostly identical caves.

The same could be done with a more naturalistic cave environment. Maybe that cave was never built up much by the aliens or settlers, but some alien artifacts or pockets of resources were still buried away down there to be fought over by the three factions.

I'm not sure how you would go about introducing ruins of a human city after launch. Maybe the area was quarantined by all three sides and only recently becomes survivable. I guess city ruins are the most likely of the three to be in at launch, but hopefully they aren't off the table if they don't make it in by launch.

They could also introduce new continents in a variety of ways, without even having to resort to going to other planets.

Do a sunken, Atlantas style continent that rises out of the ocean.

Have a continent that was previously cloaked by a stealth field, or was out of phase with the rest of the planet, but then it becomes visible/tangible and it's warpgates activate.

Obviously other planets or stellar bodies are another viable place to expand into. I hope if they do this, that they get more creative with it than just being like another continent on Auraxis. Do a lower gravity environment where things fall slower (that doesn't = jumping higher, lrn2physics). Maybe make an area that has no atmosphere, where anybody in something lighter than Heavy Assault will start to take environmental damage every time their shield is down to zero. Ideally, each offworld area would be more unique, instead of a half dozen areas with the same alternate rules and conditions.

Of course space combat could be another one of these environments. Something like Shattered Horizon maybe. Space combat may be one area that would require too much development time to relegate it to a single area though. You would at least have to make alterations to every character model, while you would probably need entirely new models for space vehicles.

The same goes for naval combat. Putting in a bunch of sea vessels would be too much work to relegate it to a single one water zone.

Hopefully, with having entirely new equipment options, space and naval combat would be interesting enough to warrant a few different locations without becoming stale.

Naval combat could have one area that's entirely water, with a few capture points, floating bases and floating towers, and maybe some rocky barriers to break it up. Another area could be largely water, with a ton of tiny islands, a couple of bigger islands and the occasional bridge. A third area could be more like most regular continents, but with a ton of waterways that provide naval vessels with plenty of options to be useful and important, more waterways than Cyssor, but still largely land oriented.

My brain isn't thinking of much in the way of diverse space environments to fight over, but I'm sure there would be some good options.

[Captain1nsaneo]

Space environments can include radiation fields, gravity wells, asteroid packs, and magnetic storms.

Actually space is freaking terrifying. There are lightning bolts longer than our galaxy out there just traveling along. Then there are magnataurs.

[Raka Maru]

I'm sure if we find semi habitable planets that are worth fighting for, they would be in the goldilocks zone. Unless they were rich in some resource we need.

In Eve online, this means mining and transport vessels. On PS2, this seems to be just have control of this sector and the resources are yours.

But I like your ideas Xyntech, in how to expand this game later. To me, MMO means continual development, upgrades, more land to explore and things to do, so the sky is the limit once this is stable and balanced, and the world flocks to it. :)

[Tatwi]

Urban, like Counter-Strike urban, would be fun. Many of the best CS maps were build as a combination of corridores and larger rooms, with some windows and ladders here and there. The theme/skin changed on each map, but the principle was the same. PS bases are like that inside, but the outside of bases are much more open. It would be fun to have a few large (1 mile square) out door urban areas that mix the tight spaces and windows of CS with the large base court yards and indoor bases of PS. Tanks and airecraft woud be harder to use, due to the tall buildings and thin streets, so effective use of them would be a show of skill for sure.

[NewSith]

Urban, like Counter-Strike urban, would be fun. Many of the best CS maps were build as a combination of corridores and larger rooms, with some windows and ladders here and there. The theme/skin changed on each map, but the principle was the same. PS bases are like that inside, but the outside of bases are much more open. It would be fun to have a few large (1 mile square) out door urban areas that mix the tight spaces and windows of CS with the large base court yards and indoor bases of PS. Tanks and airecraft woud be harder to use, due to the tall buildings and thin streets, so effective use of them would be a show of skill for sure.

Urban, like Battlefield 3 urban, Seine Crossing style to be precise would be even more fun.