VS seems a bit dumbed down.

[CutterJohn]

So far VS has

-Weapons with damage degradation, instead of bullet drop, and reduced recoil

-An aircraft that flies easier than the rest.

-Tank with a main gun that has no arc(unless thats changed from PS1?)


While cool and all, it seems that things are getting a bit dumbed down. Theres less room for mastery of weapons. I can learn to compensate for bullet drop at range, but there is no possibility of me learning to compensate for damage degradation.. Once I learn to put my reticle over the target I've mastered the thing.

I'm just worried it will be an empire of weapons that are too easy to use. Not overpowered, just less of a learning curve that prevents personal skill from making a big difference to the fight.

What do you guys think?

[Aractain]

Velcome camrade! In de vanyou sovorunty da waypons use dyoo!

[jollytraveller]

I agree, although I am unlikely to roll VS so it won't personally affect me.

[wildcat140679]

So far VS has

-Weapons with damage degradation, instead of bullet drop, and reduced recoil



Reading this alone gave me a cold chill down my spine.
I really hope this ain't the case, for this would suck the fun out of the game right away.

[Elude]

Seems fine to me, the more advanced technology is the easier it is to use!

I'm not even going to play VS and I'm perfectly fine with this.

[LZachariah]

I'm surprised to hear that someone is basing "the fun" of this game upon bullet-drop.

That aside, it would be VERY unrealistic for Vanu weapons to have bullet-drop, they're energy beams. It would be completely arbitrary to say that a beam of LIGHT begins to drift toward the ground after a few hundred yards; NC and TR guns shoot bullets, bullets drift down, not beams of light. Vanu isn't dumbed down, they simply have different limitations and different benefits, just like the other two factions.

~Zachariah

[yonman]

What do you guys think?
That you're laying down the ground work for accusing the VS of being the "no-skill" empire. This was chewed to death in the past many times. Lets see:

-Weapons with damage degradation, instead of bullet drop, and reduced recoil
No one said that these are hit-scan weapons. Projectiles can still have slow muzzle velocities and these are not instantaneous hits. You may well have to learn to lead targets and aim correctly with VS sidearms to get any results.

-An aircraft that flies easier than the rest.
Higgs and Tray said that it will be able to perform feats of "break-neck" maneuverability. No one said it would be easy to do, just that the envelope would be larger.

-Tank with a main gun that has no arc(unless thats changed from PS1?)
Same as above.
This also means VS have a tank that cannot serve as light artillery and therefore must compensate by using more direct (and therefore more difficult) approaches. We've had this in PS1, we'll have this again.

I'm not saying VS are the "skill-full" empire, just that each has its own pros and cons. Choose the one that fits your play style and let the others enjoy their own.

[Crator]

Balancing of empires... Wasn't easy in PS1 for SOE. But since they've been through it once before (lot of same ppl on dev team) I'm confident they can do it again!

[Death2All]

You'll still have to accuratately hit your target, effectively manage recoil and as some have said (if this game doesn't use hitscan) lead your shot....But then NC and TR still need to compensate for bullet drop...


Hmm, well if VS are easymode instead of NC that's fine by me :D

[Elude]

Bullet drop doesn't mean it'll be a projectile, you can easily simulate bullet drop with hitscan.

[Nephilimuk]

hmmm is this the start of the buff or nurf the VS

10/10 preemptive strike - no doubt this thread will be referenced for many years to come by our finest forum warriors.

FFS the games not even out yet wait to see how it plays

[CutterJohn]

Balancing of empires... Wasn't easy in PS1 for SOE. But since they've been through it once before (lot of same ppl on dev team) I'm confident they can do it again!

Not concerned about balance. I'm concerned that things would be too easy to use, and there will be no major component of skill. Not because other people might have an easy time of it, but because it would cheapen the game for me if I played VS.



That you're laying down the ground work for accusing the VS of being the "no-skill" empire.

lol.. You're accusing me of empire favoritism? Thats rich. I constantly poke fun at people here for their fanatical devotion to an arbitrary video game team. :rofl:

[Zulthus]

Oh god, here we go... haven't even seen a gameplay video or tried the beta yet and already calling them dumbed down. This will be a good thread. Not.

[NewSith]

VS are overpowered! I demand! NERF THE SCYTHE!

PS That "aircraft that flies easier' part, I can't quite find it, when did Higby state this?

[yonman]

lol.. You're accusing me of empire favoritism? Thats rich. I constantly poke fun at people here for their fanatical devotion to an arbitrary video game team. :rofl:

Well ... if you'd've bothered to actually read what was written there you'd see I'm actually saying "live and let live". Feeling VS gear "cheapens" your whatever is kind of ironic, considering you seem to look down on others' "fanatical devotion to an arbitrary video game team".

I'm looking to see a world where each faction is appreciated for what it's good at instead of both "other teams" being accused of being easy mode, etc. I'm a dreamer, I know.

---
forgot:
If you don't want people's opinions of what you said, don't ask. You'll never be disappointed, guaranteed.

[Vash02]

damage degradation is a bit of stick against the VS in my opinion. Give enemies more chance to dive for cover at range. VS will have to think more about when to open fire, targets will have to be far from cover in order to get a chance to kill them.

Your assumption that the Scythe will be easy to fly is premature. Especially since none of us havent even seen it fly yet. For all we know it could be like spinning plates.

And for tanks? Damage degredation. see point 1.

[Crator]

Not concerned about balance. I'm concerned that things would be too easy to use, and there will be no major component of skill. Not because other people might have an easy time of it, but because it would cheapen the game for me if I played VS.

Not sure how that isn't related to balance. If what you are saying is true, VS is easy mode, and that doesn't not equal the same for the other two empires then we have a balance issue... That's why you see trade-offs with one aspect or another with the empire specific stuff between empires... And another reason why it's hard to balance sometimes...

[BorisBlade]

you guys are missin his point, he's right in some regards. You get good as tr and compensate for drop then you flat out do more damage than vs who, no matter if they are the best gamer in the universe, can not compensate for degredation. It does make it easier in that you dont have to adjust for drop, but you are also weaker because you have degradation. Not particularly a fan of that, but could be ok if done right. But keep in mind the reality, bullet drop isnt much at all anyway for most non-snipers, once it becomes much of an issue then you are so far away you wont be hitting a moving infantry target anyway.

[Elude]

Aside from cheating and using an aimbot you can always compensate no matter the type of weapon. It's not like people are going to be running around with 100 percent accuracy, there is PLENTY room to compensate as VS.

Short of having 100 percent accuracy on both sides the VS will always have more potential in aiming.

[SKYeXile]

VS weapons have always has some drawback to them, im sure it willbe the case again.

most weapons had a much longer travel time than the other empires or required a charge time like the lancer. the other empires weapons were always more direct fire weapons.

its easy to aim 20mm, its a slut to use the thresher or aurora in comparison.

[Sifer2]

Damage Degradation does sound crappy. I agree that it will be lame if 2 empires can have weapons with greater effective range with practice but 1 will always be gimped.

It's funny in most games the Alien weapons require more skill to use. With slow moving Plasma or something that hurts more when it hits than a bullet. Maybe they will do things like this we will have to wait an see.

[Sirisian]

I brought this up before when I said the tank should use a plasma type shell so that it arcs and behaves like a normal tank round to more balance the empires. The devs seem pretty set with making VS drastically different. As long as the VS aren't gimped because we have a different system then I don't really care, but if this is a reason to have lower damage then I'm not really for it. Balance will be key and it's probably too early to gripe about that.

[Shogun]

the diversity is intended by the devs! thats the point of the three empires. you should choose the empire by your playstyle and not just because one empire looks better!
that´s what planetside was all about all the time!

you like the challange of having to aim and compensate for bullet drop to have a learning curve and master big evil but slow weapons, choose nc.

you like to be able to spray bullets at high velocity you choose tr

you don´t want a learning curve and like to shoot exactly where the rectangle is, choose vs!

that´s the only way to give every player the chance to play with his personal favorite playstyle. it´s the same philosophy that starcraft had. 3 empires, everyone played different, and in multiplayer you choose the empire that suits your playstyle best.

the balancing will be the horror, but that´s what beta is for, and with the amount of communication we are getting now, i have no fear that it will die down during balance playtesting.

[SKYeXile]

I brought this up before when I said the tank should use a plasma type shell so that it arcs and behaves like a normal tank round to more balance the empires. The devs seem pretty set with making VS drastically different. As long as the VS aren't gimped because we have a different system then I don't really care, but if this is a reason to have lower damage then I'm not really for it. Balance will be key and it's probably too early to gripe about that.

yea that tank balance will be interesting, remember the main gun is fixed, so it requires a totally different driving style.

also what might be possibly is while the mag will likely fire faster just like its PS1 counterpart, again it will probably do less damage to infantry, or it may not splash, requiring a direct hit for an instant kill.

which i think is fire, if its accurate and has a better rate of fire than the VG and prowler.

when you watch the ps2 trailer the mag gun does not look like it splashes much or at all.

[Bags]

VS OP plz nerf lasher kthx

~Bags

[xSlideShow]

I don't see the issues with damage degradation. I figure I can just get a little bit closer to the target. The enemy is going to have to do the same thing we're gonna have to do. No the distance and how easy it will be to deal damage to that target. So it doesn't really matter to me, I figure it's not difficult to run forward and dodge a few bullets get behind cover. Has long as the enemy can't start lobbing bullets over the rocks then I'm fine with.

[HELLFISH88]

The Vanu are not dumb down they are just OP. They are suppose to be that way

[xSlideShow]

Nothing to see here, move along.

[Erendil]

That you're laying down the ground work for accusing the VS of being the "no-skill" empire. This was chewed to death in the past many times. Lets see:

-Weapons with damage degradation, instead of bullet drop, and reduced recoil
No one said that these are hit-scan weapons. Projectiles can still have slow muzzle velocities and these are not instantaneous hits. You may well have to learn to lead targets and aim correctly with VS sidearms to get any results.

-An aircraft that flies easier than the rest.
Higgs and Tray said that it will be able to perform feats of "break-neck" maneuverability. No one said it would be easy to do, just that the envelope would be larger.

-Tank with a main gun that has no arc(unless thats changed from PS1?)
Same as above.
This also means VS have a tank that cannot serve as light artillery and therefore must compensate by using more direct (and therefore more difficult) approaches. We've had this in PS1, we'll have this again.

I'm not saying VS are the "skill-full" empire, just that each has its own pros and cons. Choose the one that fits your play style and let the others enjoy their own.

^^^ Pretty much this. ^^^

And I'll add that there are simply WAY too many different aspects of PS2 combat and various weapon/vehicle stats that we know almost nothing about for us to be at all concerned about any given empire being dumbed down or skill-less, like:


Muzzle velocity, and thus the amount of lead time required to hit
How much weapon recoil differs between the empires
CoF expansion (they've said CoF is still a factor to consider in PS2)
The effect of getting shot on your aim
STK and TTK values for each weapon
How degradation will affect said STK and TTK values (all else being equal, the more hits it takes to kill, the more skill is required)
What if any differences there are in the effectiveness of different weapons' ironsights
different vehicle handling characteristics and their effect on weapon aim: acceleration, top speed, turning rate, braking, etc
direct-hit vs explosion damage
The actual amount of bullet drop suffered by TR/NC weapons over distance
Typical and maximum engagement distances during firefights
The effect of weather on weapon projectiles
The effect of day/night cycles and lighting on weapon aim



Etc, etc, etc.... And that's just what I thought of off the top of my head in 2 mins.

Lastly, I think the effect that bullet drop will have on a character's aim has been greatly exaggerated in the minds of some people (not accusing the OP of this, but I'm sure there are some here who suffer from it).

Drop is generally expressed in x number of inches every 50 or 100 yards/meters to the target. For modern assault rifles it's usually <3-4 inches per 100m at any range you'd normally engage the enemy at (<300m).

Based on the in-game footage during the AGN interview and going on the Devs' continued stress on their focus on "realism" in PS2 I suspect TR/NC weapons will suffer from a similar amount, so the affect of bullet drop will most likely be negligible for 90% of the firefights you'll be in.

[CplVars]

If I remember correctly, the Pulsar and Beamer already had damage degredation in PS1. On a shot for shot basis at long range the Cycler did more damage than the Pulsar but the Pulsar had much better accuracy. If I'm not mistaken on this, the Pulsar also had the least amount of range out of the ESMA, because I remember countless times of firing from a wall with my Cycler and hitting a VS while his Pulsar beams were stopping 5 meters short of me.

I just don't see where the validity of this issue is coming from when most of these "limitations" to the VS were already present in the original game and made the VS often times better than the other 2 empires. Just my 2 cents.

[Xyntech]

Bullet drop isn't the only thing they have to worry about though. CoF and kickback are also things that VS weapons don't sound like they need to worry about.

Bottom line, all three empires should be relatively equally effective at similar ranges to each other.

Maybe the Pulsar could have a charged shot as well, which required no extra ammo to fire and did no extra damage at short range, but took a small extra amount of time to charge up before it could fire and had little to no damage degradation at longer ranges. This would allow it to compete with COF and kickback based guns which can fire more accurately at long ranges by firing more slowly.