PlanetSide 2 Backstory Henry Briggs Part 2

[Ghryphen]

http://www.planetside-universe.com/news-planetside-2-backstory-henry-briggs-part-2-2630.htm

[Peacemaker]

Wow. A pretty epic introduction to how the Vanu Sovereignty begins. I hope there's equally revealing information as to what started the NC and what the TR were thinking at the start of the revelation of three different factions in the fleet.

What is confusing me though is that those first story's we got were from people on the onset of conflict between said three factions. I think it was stated that the wormhole had collapsed and another hundred years (or two or three, I forget, but a large amount of time basically). This is before Auraxis is even discovered, so the TR must have known something was up during a large amount of time, after landing on Auraxis.

This large time gap leaves me wondering what the heck happened during all that time? This could just be a time gap that means things just kinda settled back down after landing and then remnants of the VS and NC resurface to cause conflict. On the other hand this could show that these factions occupied Auraxis as sort of a "Political party" for the duration of colonization till war broke out.

I think the latter of the two would be great. It would explain why such a deep hatred had suddenly ignited a war could have just sprouted up. The story of the politics during the gap could be very epic.

[LZachariah]

This is absolutely the best chapter they've submitted so far. It's deep and complex, and only partially-understandable by anyone who is NOT Briggs. I am thrilled at how pitch-perfectly they convey the immensity of connecting with Vanu.

This is stellar work, and I affirm that Technology Equals Might.

~Zachariah

[Khellendros]

Ya, I love lore, keep these coming!

[IceyCold]

Well, looks like the Vanu are all crazy for sure.

It's ok, the N.C. will be there to liberate them from their insanity; with a 150mm dose of "freedom". :3

[Stellus]

Wonderfully written, and quite possibly the best video game lore I'e seen in a very long time. Not only does it give Vanu Sovereignty a humane and relatable backstory, but it provides so much depth and immersion to Planetside's universe and backdrop.

[Talek Krell]

So. Still a bunch of fuck-wit cultists.

They're going to have to tug really hard to pull the VS backstory out of the nosedive they've put it into.

[Canaris]

Wow. A pretty epic introduction to how the Vanu Sovereignty begins. I hope there's equally revealing information as to what started the NC and what the TR were thinking at the start of the revelation of three different factions in the fleet.

What is confusing me though is that those first story's we got were from people on the onset of conflict between said three factions. I think it was stated that the wormhole had collapsed and another hundred years (or two or three, I forget, but a large amount of time basically). This is before Auraxis is even discovered, so the TR must have known something was up during a large amount of time, after landing on Auraxis.

This large time gap leaves me wondering what the heck happened during all that time? This could just be a time gap that means things just kinda settled back down after landing and then remnants of the VS and NC resurface to cause conflict. On the other hand this could show that these factions occupied Auraxis as sort of a "Political party" for the duration of colonization till war broke out.

I think the latter of the two would be great. It would explain why such a deep hatred had suddenly ignited a war could have just sprouted up. The story of the politics during the gap could be very epic.

At a complete guess from the ending of that story is that the colony might have been a bit too busy terraforming Auraxis, that the need to pull together to survive out weighed their political desires at least for 175 years. Just my take on it.

One thing that strikes me as odd and maybe I'm just missing something from another story.

They flew out and found the artifact with a fleet, then then they said they were heading back to Earth which contradicts the point that they are flying out to the worm hole to New Earth / Auraxis. Did I miss something or is this a whole other expedition than the one with Connery & Briggs that found the artifact "brainwashing machine"?

[Canaris]

So. Still a bunch of fuck-wit cultists.

They're going to have to tug really hard to pull the VS backstory out of the nosedive they've put it into.

You don't get these kinds of crazy religious nut jobs in the TR........ come back to the fold ;)
We just have the regular kind :D

[Twheee]

Wonderfully written, and quite possibly the best video game lore I'e seen in a very long time. Not only does it give Vanu Sovereignty a humane and relatable backstory, but it provides so much depth and immersion to Planetside's universe and backdrop.

Seems to me it gives Briggs a relatable backstory. At the end of the day though, we still have to justify why a bunch of rational scientists are chugging that kool-aid.

Also bugs me a bit that this time around, the VS gear isn't human designed using new stuff learned from tinkering around with Vanu tech, but instead is handed down to them by Vanu.

Does make me wonder though, are we going to see multiple sub factions in the lore, some of them being all crazy kool aid drinkers, and others being more grounded in reality and in it for the research opportunities?

[FastAndFree]

One thing that strikes me as odd and maybe I'm just missing something from another story.

They flew out and found the artifact with a fleet, then then they said they were heading back to Earth which contradicts the point that they are flying out to the worm hole to New Earth / Auraxis. Did I miss something or is this a whole other expedition than the one with Connery & Briggs that found the artifact "brainwashing machine"?

No, I think Tom Connery lead a second low-scale expedition to the Moon Belt and brought Briggs with him. They found the artifact there.
After that the Wormhole Event happened, and Connery jumped at the possibility, organizing a large colonizing fleet

Seems to me it gives Briggs a relatable backstory. At the end of the day though, we still have to justify why a bunch of rational scientists are chugging that kool-aid.
It was noted in an earlier chapter that "Ever since what happened to Briggs we have been getting sporadic telepathic contact"
How is that unquestioning blind faith?

Also bugs me a bit that this time around, the VS gear isn't human designed using new stuff learned from tinkering around with Vanu tech, but instead is handed down to them by Vanu. Where did you get that from? I don't remember anything being said on that

[Canaris]

No, I think Tom Connery lead as second low-scale expedition to the Moon Belt and brought Briggs with him. They found the artifact there.
After that the Wormhole Event happened, and Connery jumped at the possibility, organizing a large colonizing fleet

It was noted in an earlier chapter that "Ever since what happened to Briggs we have been getting sporadic telepathic contact"
How is that unquestioning blind faith?

Where did you get that from? I don't remember anything being said on that

yeah I was just rereading the first Brigg story, that makes more sense

[Talek Krell]

It was noted in an earlier chapter that "Ever since what happened to Briggs we have been getting sporadic telepathic contact"
How is that unquestioning blind faith?The problem isn't them believing in the existence of an entity called "Vanu". It's in them blindly assuming that he is trustworthy and accepting him as their new reason for existing.

Where did you get that from? I don't remember anything being said on thatThey stated that Vanu gave the VS the "rebirthing" technology. Given that precedent it's reasonable to conclude that they're just building technology based on designs provided by him, rather than actually reverse engineering it and coming to understand how it works.

[Twheee]

It was noted in an earlier chapter that "Ever since what happened to Briggs we have been getting sporadic telepathic contact"
How is that unquestioning blind faith?

Where did you get that from? I don't remember anything being said on that

"It has been said that “The Ancients” (the ones that actually created the tech that the V.S. use) have shown them the way. They believe that they have been “blessed” with the gift of technology and power to “smite those that stand against the pursuit of knowledge and power”."

VS Empire brief. Also, when you start referring to things as "blessings" and talking about smiting, you're into religious territory.

Those sorts of terms also raise the question, do the VS troops know what the overall game plan is? Or are they just going with the the following three step plan:

1: Kill everyone until they submit to Vanu and in general be Vanu's little helpers
2: ???
3: Ascend/Get awesome tech!

Assuming they're in on things, it would help make then a faction you can identify with if us players are actually in on the loop. Unless we're doing the wonderful string along the viewer for three years until the big and probably disappointing reveal thing. Which really is more irritating than anything.

[FastAndFree]

Hmm. I'm sorry I can't hear you all over the sound of how good this drink tastes. Or something...

I'm still not convinced about the tech though. Perhaps Vanu just nudges them in the right direction? Clearly some kind of development still goes into the ancient tech - the Vanu Intel Briefing mentioned a Vanu Advanced Physics Lab. It's not like Vanu downloads a blueprint into their brains and they build it without even knowing how it works.

I think they still reverse-engineered ancient tech, except they didn't do it based on physically present ancient tech - they reverse-engineered it from telepathic fragments

edit
Or perhaps it is even simpler. A telepathic vision showed them where they would find some ancient technology which they then reverse-engineered. That would easily pass as "gifted to us"

[Twheee]

edit
Or perhaps it is even simpler. A telepathic vision showed them where they would find some ancient technology which they then reverse-engineered. That would easily pass as "gifted to us"

I'll give you that. I really want them to give us something identifiable. I just worry about the sharp turn into religion territory they've gone is all. Very different feel from the PS1 incarnation, whereas the PS2 TR and NC are immediately recognizable. Joined up with VS because they were the militant transhumanist/scientists group that was fighting the other factions for their right to plunder the grave study the remains of an ancient civilization for tech that could screw with the fabric of reality, to hell with the naysayers. Now if I want to stay loyal to my faction, I have to light a bunch of incense and get on board with whatever Vanu has in mind for humanity.

[Talek Krell]

Joined up with VS because they were the militant transhumanist/scientists group that was fighting the other factions for their right to plunder the grave study the remains of an ancient civilization for tech that could screw with the fabric of reality, to hell with the naysayers. Now if I want to stay loyal to my faction, I have to light a bunch of incense and get on board with whatever Vanu has in mind for humanity.This, 100%. TR and NC escaped this reboot relatively unscathed, but the VS get knocked down from being a unique and nuanced faction so that they can be the scary dogmatic mind-slaves of aliens (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ScaryDogmaticAliens)? Frankly I'm dissapointed. And insulted.

[Erendil]

Hmm. I'm sorry I can't hear you all over the sound of how good this drink tastes. Or something...

I'm still not convinced about the tech though. Perhaps Vanu just nudges them in the right direction? Clearly some kind of development still goes into the ancient tech - the Vanu Intel Briefing mentioned a Vanu Advanced Physics Lab. It's not like Vanu downloads a blueprint into their brains and they build it without even knowing how it works.

I think they still reverse-engineered ancient tech, except they didn't do it based on physically present ancient tech - they reverse-engineered it from telepathic fragments

edit
Or perhaps it is even simpler. A telepathic vision showed them where they would find some ancient technology which they then reverse-engineered. That would easily pass as "gifted to us"

Yes, I think that you are more on the right track. I don't think that statements like "Vanu gave them rebirthing technology" and such should be taken literally. I don't think that the VS are just regurgitating page-by-page engineering specs and service manuals on Ancient tech handed to them by Vanu like one might download them off an FTP site.

And remember everyone, all of these backstories are told from a limited third person view, meaning we are shown what's going on through the senses of the characters involved. We only know what they know, and what we read is tainted by their viewpoints, prejudices, etc.

I suspect that Biggs's encounter with the artifact opened up his mind, bringing him one step closer to understanding how the Universe works, and giving him just enough glimpses behind the Veil to expand his consciousness and allow him to look at his already-vast knowledge (he had 3 PhD's after all) in ways never before possible and taking his ideas in directions not thought of before. I believe it is in this way the Ancient tech was "revealed."

Vanu may have given him a telepathic-nudge here and there like some guru living alone on a mountain top expounding cryptic allegories and uttering colorful one-liners like he was reading from some Vanu fortune-cookie. You know, just enough to inspire Biggs and keep him on the path. But most of the knowledge Biggs uncovered came from Biggs himself and his new-found expanded consciousness.

And I suspect that a number of other VS who have touched one of the artifacts for the first time have experienced something similar, to varying degrees and in ways that are unique to each individual. This would explain why Willis Scott in the PS2 backstory Pt 2 (http://www.planetside2.com/news/oct13OriginCh1Pt2.html) had heard the voice of Vanu as well.

And it's easy to see how the exchange of ideas and thirst for knowledge and enlightenment experienced by the VS can ultimately lead to revolution by the followers of Vanu. There's a reason Dictators fear knowledge amongst the populace, and one only need to look at how big a driving force the Age of Enlightenment was on the American and French Revolutions, for example, to see how an influx of knowledge and new ideas can be lead to civil unrest and the desire to improve the status quo.

It seems to me that the founders of the Vanu Sovereignty were at the dawn of a another Age of Enlightenment.

Remember: Enlightenment, not Religion. And I for one have never been happier that I'll be playing VS! :vsrocks:

[Xyntech]

I think they've walked the line pretty well. You can't have any one side being clearly and entirely in the right.

NC and TR see them as cultists, so there needs to be some legitimate reason to view them this way. That doesn't mean the VS are identical to a cult, they just walk a fine line.

NC aren't just civilian bombing terrorists and TR aren't just slave driving dictators, but that's how their enemies view them.

Hopefully the writers keep walking this line, giving reasonable justification for these scientists to continue down this path. As it stands now, I feel that all three sides have about equal justification for believing in their cause and rejecting the others.

[Talek Krell]

Hopefully the writers keep walking this line, giving reasonable justification for these scientists to continue down this path."Because they've been brainwashed" is not a reasonable justification. Not when the VS are supposed to stand shoulder to shoulder with "we are willing to sacrifice freedom to preserve our safety" and "our individuality must be protected at all costs".

Briggs didn't "have his mind opened", this is not testimonial hour on the worship network.

Asperger's syndrome is a neurological condition characterized by overdevelopment of the parts on the brain responsible for rational thought at the expense of other areas, some of them associated with empathy. The fact that Briggs is able to begin functioning in social situations at a normal level means that he has been neurologically re-programmed. The fact that he just happens to immediately develop a passionate and deeply rooted subservience to an entity that he has never directly encountered might as well be a sign planted in his skull that says "I am being mind-controlled by an alien entity". When the guru on the mountaintop has a forked tongue and horns people still worthy of being called such ask questions beyond "How can I dedicate my existence to you today oh great lord and master?".


And remember everyone, all of these backstories are told from a limited third person view, meaning we are shown what's going on through the senses of the characters involved.There are an exceptionally limited number of ways that this backstory can lead up to the scene just before the war begins, and none of them seem to treat the VS as a legitimate faction. We know that Briggs got brain drained. We know that Vanu is still revered and trusted, to the point that the VS will drop their peaceful schtick on someone else's say so of his say so.

1. "Vanu" is an entity or concept not actually involved in any of this. An imposter is manipulating the VS in his name. The VS are chumps.
2. Vanu is a malignant entity brainwashing the VS to accomplish it's goals. The VS are brainwashed chumps.
3. Vanu is a benevolent entity trying to help humanity. His methods of choice are neural re-association to make humanity worship him and genocide. Vanu is an incompetent. The VS are brainwashed chumps.

[Canaris]

1. "Vanu" is an entity or concept not actually involved in any of this. An imposter is manipulating the VS in his name. The VS are chumps.
2. Vanu is a malignant entity brainwashing the VS to accomplish it's goals. The VS are brainwashed chumps.
3. Vanu is a benevolent entity trying to help humanity. His methods of choice are neural re-association to make humanity worship him and genocide. Vanu is an incompetent. The VS are brainwashed chumps.

The TR have been saying this all along!

[Xyntech]

"Because they've been brainwashed" is not a reasonable justification. Not when the VS are supposed to stand shoulder to shoulder with "we are willing to sacrifice freedom to preserve our safety" and "our individuality must be protected at all costs".

Briggs didn't "have his mind opened", this is not testimonial hour on the worship network.

Asperger's syndrome is a neurological condition characterized by overdevelopment of the parts on the brain responsible for rational thought at the expense of other areas, some of them associated with empathy. The fact that Briggs is able to begin functioning in social situations at a normal level means that he has been neurologically re-programmed. The fact that he just happens to immediately develop a passionate and deeply rooted subservience to an entity that he has never directly encountered might as well be a sign planted in his skull that says "I am being mind-controlled by an alien entity". When the guru on the mountaintop has a forked tongue and horns people still worthy of being called such ask questions beyond "How can I dedicate my existence to you today oh great lord and master?".


There are an exceptionally limited number of ways that this backstory can lead up to the scene just before the war begins, and none of them seem to treat the VS as a legitimate faction. We know that Briggs got brain drained. We know that Vanu is still revered and trusted, to the point that the VS will drop their peaceful schtick on someone else's say so of his say so.


Seems to me that you are holding the VS to a different measuring stick than the others.

To the VS: We seek technological evolution and are bravely taking up arms to defend the true future of humanity. Vanu has given tangible proof in the form of technology and has earned our respect and trust.

To their enemies: They are all brain washed cultists that follow some sort of imaginary or malevolent leader, who will bring about the destruction of humanity and the known universe.

To the TR: We have provided the longest, most stable era of peace in human history and we are the only ones able to ensure that this era of peace continues. Nobody is above the rule of law, and the good of the global populace must always come above personal liberties.

To their enemies: Those guys are all the same, fascist pigs who sheepishly do whatever big brother tells them to. Their era of peace has been a mask for untold horrors, and their regime only continues to descend deeper into an abyss that will drag humanity back into the dark ages.

To the NC: All humans have a deep, inner desire for personal strength and self determination. Some have taken this to an extreme and imposed their will upon others, and it's our calling to destroy these oppressors and restore liberty to mankind.

To their enemies: Wealthy elitists, violent ruffians and all other manner of scum, these terrorists have no compunction against harming anyone and anything that looks like an easy target. Deluded by greed and lacking any real structure to their movement, the best case scenario is that humanity will become dominated by corporate monopolies, instead of governments. The worst case scenario is total anarchy and an end to civilization as we know it.


So all three sides could easily be looked at as being deluded into joining their movement. VS are thought to be brainwashed into service, TR are thought to be scared into service, and NC are thought to be tempted by greed and petty self interests into service.

Of course, none of those are the full picture. The TR truly have a leg to stand on, that they have historically proven to be a bastion of safety and stability. The NC really do have members who want to end all forms of oppression. The VS have technological proof that there is a higher power (not a mystical power, but a technological power) that humanity can strive to become more like.


1. "Vanu" is an entity or concept not actually involved in any of this. An imposter is manipulating the VS in his name. The VS are chumps.

1. If Vanu is an imposter, then it is an imposter with the same ability to invoke technological breakthroughs and speaks a language that the scientists of the VS are receptive to. I'm an atheist, but if some powerful alien entity came along, I may not follow it if I didn't like what it said and I certainly would be dubious about anything like it being all powerful, but I would have no problem accepting it as an advanced species that we could potentially learn a thing or two from.

2. Vanu is a malignant entity brainwashing the VS to accomplish it's goals. The VS are brainwashed chumps.

2. This is a legitimate concern, but if it were just a brainwashing scheme, don't you think a lot more of the scientists and intellectuals would have started catching on? I find it implausible that somehow the entirety of the TR and NC were able to resist the brainwashing, but all of the intelligentsia of the VS fell right into it. At the very least, there was enough of a convincing argument to join the VS prior to any "brainwashing" happening, so they were hardly deluded into joining.

3. Vanu is a benevolent entity trying to help humanity. His methods of choice are neural re-association to make humanity worship him and genocide. Vanu is an incompetent. The VS are brainwashed chumps.

3. Vanu may not be benevolent, but he may not be malevolent either. As for his methods, I haven't seen anything in the story yet that indicates that Briggs has lost his own personal will. Become influenced by alien technology, sure, but brain patterns fall into the domain of transhumanism, so unless it's totally rewriting his mind and forcing him to do things he would otherwise think unconscionable, I'd say it falls less into the category of brainwashing and more into the category of assisted evolution. As for genocide, the VS seem the least genocidal of the lot:

The TR would hang the entire NC and VS as traitors, and the NC would behead the TR and VS as overthrown oppressors. The VS are about the only ones who I could plausibly see giving amnesty after the war. Remember that the VS joined the fight only after war erupted between the other two. For the VS, this is much more an act of defense for Auraxis than an aggressive push to claim, or hold on to, military power. At the very least that's how it was when the VS went into the fight.

Vanu is no more incompetent than the TR leadership who failed so miserably to hold on to 1000 years of power, or the NC leadership who managed to botch their moral highground by attacking civilian targets.

The VS are no more brainwashed chumps than the TR and NC soldiers who can't see the potential downfall that their ideals may lead to.

Every side has an over inflated sense that their sides victory will turn out awesome for humanity. The TR see an Auraxis that has it's own thousand years of peace and prosperity. The NC see a future where everybody is free to make their own way and live as they see fit, without being subject to the rule of another man. The VS see the ushering in of a descendant of human beings, who is more wise and powerful than modern man, who can finally break the bonds that humanity has struggled against since the dawn of civilization.

Quite frankly, all of them seem a little too hopeful. At least the VS have something new up their sleeves that humanity hasn't tried before. The TR aren't looking so bad either, considering that they have 1000 years of (relative) peace to point at in support of their goals. The most crazy seeming ones are the NC. Freedom is a great ideal, but it seems like they are heading more towards anarchy or corporate domination. When has that ever worked, either in the context of real life or the fictional future of Planetside?

I'm mostly VS for the cool armor, but I would be disappointed if I felt that they had become completely deluded, insane zealots. I'd also be disappointed if they had complete justification and that the only reason not to be VS was all disinformation and propaganda. I feel like we are finally moving away from the latter, so I'm pretty happy with the development of the story, as long as we don't start swinging too far towards the former.

It still seems like classic Planetside to me. TR = Stability and Prosperity, NC = Freedom and Personal Liberty, VS = Technology and Transhumanism.

They all just have a little more depth to them this time around.

[Twheee]

The TR have been saying this all along!

And there goes elmo trying to turn us against eachother....



To the VS: We seek technological evolution and are bravely taking up arms to defend the true future of humanity. Vanu has given tangible proof in the form of technology and has earned our respect and trust.

To their enemies: They are all brain washed cultists that follow some sort of imaginary or malevolent leader, who will bring about the destruction of humanity and the known universe.


Not really helping the cause when we throw around religious terms like blessing and smiting. We're scientists. We should know better.

[Canaris]

And there goes elmo trying to turn us against eachother....

if your Ancients were so great why then are they extinct and Auraxis left as a devasted wasteland..... all the warning signs are there :eek:

btw Great post Xyntech :thumbsup:

[Xyntech]

if your Ancients were so great why then are they extinct and Auraxis left as a devasted wasteland..... all the warning signs are there :eek:

btw Great post Xyntech :thumbsup:

Shut up! They devasted the planet during a giant keg party on their last night before they ascended to a higher plane of existence!

Now let me throw up another wall of text to make your eyes bleed and subject you to Vanu's will.

[Twheee]

if your Ancients were so great why then are they extinct and Auraxis left as a devasted wasteland..... all the warning signs are there :eek:

btw Great post Xyntech :thumbsup:

Hey. Just because an alien race decided to store their collective consciousness inside a couple of crappy action figures doesn't mean they aren't powerful.

@xyntech Possibility that said crappy action figures are in fact leftover advanced alien beer bongs used for consumption of delicious purple kool-aid?

[Canaris]

Shut up! They devasted the planet during a giant keg party on their last night before they ascended to a higher plane of existence!

Now let throw up another wall of text to make your eyes bleed and subject you to Vanu's will.

so.......... you're saying that your "gods" are a bunch light weights eh?
can't hold their liquor :drunk:

and Twheee haven't you seen childs play and the bride of chucky, they didn't end well!

[FastAndFree]

Wow Xyntech, nice :)

Also, on Briggs' specific supposed brainwashing.

He lived his entire life with near zero empathy, but then his mind was miraculously balanced without losing anything. That is a life-changing event. It is unsurprising that his personality and entire outlook on life changed.

His shift was not instantenous either. Is it so implausible that after months of soul searching he decided that his goal in life was to understand what has changed his life forever?

He said "Vanu was my purpose; my reason for being." not "Serving my alien masters was my purpose"

Remember that at this point Vanu is just a word with no clear meaning. He wanted to understand what happened to him and how and perhaps why, not dedicating his life to an alien overlord

[Xyntech]

At the very least, it's sounding like Vanu is a plausible trap that people could fall into, with the best of intentions going in. Not so unlike the NC and TR.

I'm sure all three sides are supposedly filled with their own share of ignorant people who were duped into the cause, but to dismiss any one of them as based entirely on being fooled into servitude is to do a disservice to the positives and negatives of all three sides.

The alien tech is so amazing that even the TR and NC use it. Immortality, that's huge. It's almost surprising that the NC and TR haven't taken more notice of Vanu. But they have their own goals and ideals, thus we arrive at the global conflict.

[FastAndFree]

They must see ancient technology as a slippery slope.
They can't avoid using it, but better use as little as possible lest they fall under alien influences.

I mean, just look at those wacko technoreligious nutjobs, boldly sliding down with no regards to what might be at the bottom

[Higby]

Great discussion! I can't wait to dig more into the mysteries of Vanu, the Ancients and what it all means. I will say one slight spoiler: the scientists and technicians that form the backbone of the VS are not being hoodwinked, they have knowledge of certain events past and (possible) future that the rest of the factions do not.

[Canaris]

Great discussion! I can't wait to dig more into the mysteries of Vanu, the Ancients and what it all means. I will say one slight spoiler: the scientists and technicians that form the backbone of the VS are not being hoodwinked, they have knowledge of certain events past and (possible) future that the rest of the factions do not.

All of this has happened before and all of it will happen again?

[basti]

Great discussion! I can't wait to dig more into the mysteries of Vanu, the Ancients and what it all means. I will say one slight spoiler: the scientists and technicians that form the backbone of the VS are not being hoodwinked, they have knowledge of certain events past and (possible) future that the rest of the factions do not.

Okay, seriously, shutup. You cant hook me up to a story and then deny me the possibility to keep reading. Ive waited for several authors to finish their book series before even start reading them, and you guys just completle screwed me! :cry:


But as we are here: Currently banging my head on the potential effects the artifact could have on Briggs. Knowing that he did suicide in the end, it seems much more than just a simple telepatic message. He touched it, and it seems to have changed him to some degree.

[Nobel]

The Vanu have a fascinating ideal behind them; and its one I'm not quite sure everyone has picked up on yet.

They are intentionally genocidal. They find genocide to be a good and useful tool for the evolution of the species.

For the Vanu; those who wish, above all else to see the human species reach its higher potential (whether it is through new technologies or a kind of transhumanism) simply must eliminate all those who do not see this way.

These Vanu scientists see that, Violence is inherently progress in nature; that stronger species are allowed to flourish and evolve because weaker species die. For the Vanu; they see the technological pushes that they are making to "evolve" the species through technology, instead of some kind of biological means.

These men have a very similar ideal to the futurists and fascists of the first half of our century; the only difference is; they see the difference between week and strong to be the the use of technology.

Higby has just given us the best possible reason for this in his response; the Vanu know something is coming, and they know humanity isn't ready for it. By using this competitive spirit; they wish to help advance the human race, so that we are ready for this challenge.

[Canaris]

I prefer to think that all VS have a mental disease stemming from to much exposure to alien artifacts.

The best doctors and scientist left in the Terran Republic have proscribed a 9mm lead tablet to the cranium as the best cure.....

[Xyntech]

The Vanu have a fascinating ideal behind them; and its one I'm not quite sure everyone has picked up on yet.

They are intentionally genocidal. They find genocide to be a good and useful tool for the evolution of the species.

For the Vanu; those who wish, above all else to see the human species reach its higher potential (whether it is through new technologies or a kind of transhumanism) simply must eliminate all those who do not see this way.

These Vanu scientists see that, Violence is inherently progress in nature; that stronger species are allowed to flourish and evolve because weaker species die. For the Vanu; they see the technological pushes that they are making to "evolve" the species through technology, instead of some kind of biological means.

These men have a very similar ideal to the futurists and fascists of the first half of our century; the only difference is; they see the difference between week and strong to be the the use of technology.

Higby has just given us the best possible reason for this in his response; the Vanu know something is coming, and they know humanity isn't ready for it. By using this competitive spirit; they wish to help advance the human race, so that we are ready for this challenge.

I don't think this is entirely correct. If they were intentionally genocidal, it seems like they would have struck the first blow of the war.

On the other hand, they may have foreknowledge of certain events. Waiting for the other two sides to weaken each other before going to war may have been a strategic choice.

The interesting thing about the VS is that it's almost like "What if there was a religion about powerful forces talking to certain 'chosen individuals,' that had prophecies about the future, and could perform miracles like raising the dead and walking (hovering) on water... except that it was all true." The place where science typically butts heads with religion is over testable results. If Vanu is able to provide empirical evidence for all of his "miraculous" claims, I could absolutely see groups of scientifically minded individuals falling into a somewhat cult-like existence. The difference would be that it was founded more on results than faith.

Just because it's founded less on blind faith doesn't make it any less dangerous of an ideology though. The VS may not have been duped into forming the Vanu Sovereignty, but as the war rages on, they risk becoming just as mindlessly driven as any other ideology, the TR and NC ideologies included, alongside historic religions and secular institutions such as communism.

I prefer to think that all VS have a mental disease stemming from to much exposure to alien artifacts.

The best doctors and scientist left in the Terran Republic have proscribed a 9mm lead tablet to the cranium as the best cure.....

VS: Hey, you're not a doctor!

NC/TR: This will definitely hurt you more than it will hurt me.

[Khrusky]

All of this has happened before and all of it will happen again?

... yeah I think I'll throw in with that one too.
Show us what you got, Highby!

[Higby]

I wouldn't ever call the Vanu "Genocidal". They definitely do not care about wiping out any ethnicity or religion, those typically "genocidal" raison d'etre don't apply to the VS at all.

[Xyntech]

I wouldn't ever call the Vanu "Genocidal". They definitely do not care about wiping out any ethnicity or religion, those typically "genocidal" raison d'etre don't apply to the VS at all.

An NC defending the VS. My world is collapsing. I don't know what to believe in anymore.

I believe in sandwiches. Need more delicious food tweets.

That night shot was awesome, but it didn't make me at all hungry.

[Captain1nsaneo]

I wouldn't ever call the Vanu "Genocidal". They definitely do not care about wiping out any ethnicity or religion, those typically "genocidal" raison d'etre don't apply to the VS at all.

Hey. Some of us still have our old motivations thank you very much!

[Xyntech]

Hey. Some of us still have our old motivations thank you very much!

He's referring to VS in general.

Every group needs their crazy, fanatical extremists who give the rest a bad name, right?

[IceyCold]

In all honesty I really do not see the Vanu as being a "Fanatical religious group" as much as I see what I imagine the developers are trying to paint them as:

A very focused group who are trying to improve humanity for what they see as the best; with a severe case of tunnel vision as to how their vision could go wrong. To them Technology is the only way for mankind to move forward, and to their credit this is extremely true; without our technology we are nothing more than hairless monkeys. But the down side to this is that it CAN lead to fanaticism, which is not always based on religion either. I don't see the VS so much worshiping Vanu as they are blinded by the future they believe technology can give them.

This has been well done in all the Empires so far. A look at the TR and the NC:

TR:
In their own minds they are securing the peace that has prevented mankind from wiping itself out; however in the process the freedoms of the people have been nearly obliterated and all progress outside of "accepted" thinking has suffered. On one hand they have actually given mankind peace; on the other they have nearly destroyed what has made mankind so great: Progress.

NC:
To the NC freedom of choice is the most important part of what it is to be human. They represent the ultimate in personal progress and value the individual. However the problem with freedom is that too much of it allows for anarchy; the NC way of doing things opens up the chance for conflict anew. Although the individual is much more free and humanity as a whole can progress much more freely the trade off to this is peace.

[Xyntech]

NC:
To the NC freedom of choice is the most important part of what it is to be human. They represent the ultimate in personal progress and value the individual. However the problem with freedom is that too much of it allows for anarchy; the NC way of doing things opens up the chance for conflict anew. Although the individual is much more free and humanity as a whole can progress much more freely the trade off to this is peace.

Let's also not forget that the most extreme versions of freedom end up in cave man style "might makes right" situations. If I want what you have, I'll kill you and take it. Or you'll kill me.

In that kind of worst case scenario, all society and progress would go out the window. Society has it's flaws and a lot of drawbacks, but it does a lot of important things for us as well. Society can level the playing field, so that everyone, weak or strong, smart or stupid, has the potential to make their own way and enjoy a good life. Of course, taken too far, this leads to TR style oppression, but there is certainly a middle ground between oppression and anarchy.

I'm sure that the NC see themselves as seeking that sort of balance, but the fact that they are dogmatically fighting against an established fascist state tends to indicate to me that moderation is not going to be at the top of most of their lists. The concerns of the other two sides, that the NC would plunge humanity into chaos, seem justified to me. Just as justified as the fear of TR stagnation and VS doomsday scenarios at least.

I like it because it seems like a perfect storm scenario, which it needs to be to justify this kind of conflict arising. All three sides have legitimate goals, but they have all become so myopic that they can no longer see the pitfalls that they hurtle towards.

I just identify most with the Vanu Sovereignty's root goals. I'm not the biggest proponent of stability/prosperity or liberty/freedom. Both are worthwhile endeavors, but I think that both are better in moderation. Moderation is a hard thing to rally behind. Technological progress interests me the most, so bring on the alien tech. At least if we destroy all humanity, we'll go out in style. :cool:

[Talek Krell]

the scientists and technicians that form the backbone of the VS are not being hoodwinked, they have knowledge of certain events past and (possible) future that the rest of the factions do not.It's reassuring to know that at least there are some motivations deeper than "I touched the thing, and now it all makes sense!".
Can I ask a favor though? The next time you're in touch with whoever is writing these, tell them I said:
"Please remember that it is important that the VS be formidable by their own merits. The Sovereignty of the first game had earned everything they had. They'd taken it, learned it, and made it their own. They needed no alien benefactor to hand them the assembly instructions and the operator's manual."

The original faction was worthy of respect. And they had the "moral ambiguity" bit down pat. I've always felt like the standard "techno-religious nutcase" label actually made them out as much more harmless than they really were. When you actually think about their philosophy and motives, the original VS were downright terrifying.

I just identify most with the Vanu Sovereignty's root goals.Problem is that we can't assume their root goals have remained the same. They've not been explicitly stated yet, and it looks rather likely that they've undergone some significant revision.

Every group needs their crazy, fanatical extremists who give the rest a bad name, right? Sure, but they're supposed to be the dark underbelly of the group, not the public face.

And for the people doubting the mind control thing and thinking that Briggs is just pursuing some new idea or concept, remember that it was Briggs who first reached the conclusion that Vanu was a god:I believed because I had heard the word Vanu that it has to have some kind of meaning. Perhaps it was the name of the alien’s God, and the statue we found was his idol. Tom joked that Vanu was just the figure’s name; after all he’d say, we have Dorothy dolls and Quincy Quacks, so maybe the aliens had Vanu bobbleheads or something. Maybe he was an action figure based on some kid’s holovid? I remember feeling genuine rage for the first time in my life when he joked about that figure, and he could tell.Blind rage at the mere suggestion that Vanu might not be that important. As though it was a deeply seated belief that he'd held his whole life, ingrained enough to be almost instinctive. The really tricky part of brainwashing someone is convincing them that they aren't brainwashed.

[FastAndFree]

And for the people doubting the mind control thing and thinking that Briggs is just pursuing some new idea or concept, remember that it was Briggs who first reached the conclusion that Vanu was a god:

I believed because I had heard the word Vanu that it has to have some kind of meaning. Perhaps it was the name of the alien’s God, and the statue we found was his idol. Tom joked that Vanu was just the figure’s name; after all he’d say, we have Dorothy dolls and Quincy Quacks, so maybe the aliens had Vanu bobbleheads or something. Maybe he was an action figure based on some kid’s holovid? I remember feeling genuine rage for the first time in my life when he joked about that figure, and he could tell.

Blind rage at the mere suggestion that Vanu might not be that important. As though it was a deeply seated belief that he'd held his whole life, ingrained enough to be almost instinctive. The really tricky part of brainwashing someone is convincing them that they aren't brainwashed.

He made a guess as to the identity of Vanu, don't take it as a declaration of belief
And again, the whole emotional thing was a brand new concept to him. That was in fact the first time in his life he could get angry -because a topic that was important to him was dissed as a joke, not because his supposed religion was mocked- is it a wonder he overdid it?

As a bonus point Higby outright stated that is not the case -thanks again for that-

[Atuday]

I wouldn't ever call the Vanu "Genocidal". They definitely do not care about wiping out any ethnicity or religion, those typically "genocidal" raison d'etre don't apply to the VS at all.

As a Vanu I agree with this idea. We are not racist. We don't care if you are gay. We don't care about your religion. If you are not Vanu, then we care. Then we send in the troops to enlighten. Sadly some people are stuck in their ways. Or follow the teachings of fear mongers. Or think it is cool to be an anarchist. We the Vanu however are not sheeple so we are not victim to such things. We will enlighten the world. Even if we have to burn away a few things first.

[Talek Krell]

He made a guess as to the identity of Vanu, don't take it as a declaration of beliefHis emotional reaction to the questioning of his "guess" betrays how invested he was in that conclusion. That and his subsequent declaration that Vanu was my purpose; my reason for being.

And again, the whole emotional thing was a brand new concept to him. That was in fact the first time in his life he could get angryNo, it wasn't. People with Asperger's are not emotionless blocks, something demonstrated nicely by the fact that he spent much of his young adult life raging at the world in general.


As a bonus point Higby outright stated that is not the case -thanks again for that-No, he said that the VS core leadership was not being tricked. First, that's not quite the same as not being manipulated. Second, we don't actually know if Briggs is part of the core leadership. Encouraging? Yes. Case closed? Not so much.

If you are not Vanu, then we care. Then we send in the troops to enlighten.That would be genocide.

[sylphaen]

A lot of you seem to misunderstand Vanu...

Vanu is not a god, Vanu is not some dead "ancient" spirit communicating from beyond, Vanu is not an alien from outer space. Vanu is simply much more than that. These limiting terms are too limiting and cannot accurately what Vanu his.

Vanu is like a vision. Vanu is the force breaking physical barriers between individuals. Vanu is the spirit bridging gaps between beings. Vanu is the force of understanding that can bring unity. Vanu is the force that will liberate human minds from their limitations.

Vanu is a collective individual through each of its parts. Vanu is the brilliance of each one of us multiplied by each other's.

Vanu is oneness of many.

Vanu is the true ideal of humanity.

____________

Those who understand do not need to be convinced. Those who need to be convinced will not need to understand.

[SKYeXile]

Great discussion! I can't wait to dig more into the mysteries of Vanu, the Ancients and what it all means. I will say one slight spoiler: the scientists and technicians that form the backbone of the VS are not being hoodwinked, they have knowledge of certain events past and (possible) future that the rest of the factions do not.

TRUE VANU REAPPEAR AS PLAYABLE RACE, YOU HERD IT HERE FIRST!

[Talek Krell]

Vanu is the spirit bridging gaps between beings. Vanu is the force of understanding that can bring unity.And, what? He just spends his off hours convincing his followers to engage in planetary scale warfare? :rolleyes:

[Xyntech]

And, what? He just spends his off hours convincing his followers to engage in planetary scale warfare? :rolleyes:

That's the TR and NC leadership your thinking of ;)

Can't very well enlighten anyone when you're blown up :D

[sylphaen]

And, what? He just spends his off hours convincing his followers to engage in planetary scale warfare? :rolleyes:

People who experienced Vanu and the collective conscience know that only Vanu is the true foundation of peace.

Now, are you implying that since the Vanu have found peace within themselves, they should completely ignore the murderous acts of NC/TR troops fueled with hatred instilled by their leaders ?

The Vanu can only echo heartrending sentiments of infinite sadness from the pain felt by each one of us. Do you not realize how painful it is to see you people fighting each other like animals ? Can you not imagine the overwhelming feeling of waste we perceive when each one of you who cannot (or refuses to) understand the Vanu just ends up butchering fellow humans on a battlefield ?

You do not understand. And you are blind. Vanu's sight comes from the heart and its heart is pure.

You cannot realistically expect us to bow down like sheep while two wolves roam freely inside the house of humanity ! The heart of Vanu longs for peace and respect. It longs to free humans from the barriers that plagued them since the beginning of ages.

Vanu will NOT stay silent and watch your atrocities go unpunished. Through its every individual, along their every single heartbeat, pained by sadness and unavoidable sacrifice, but strengthened by hope and peace nonetheless, the Vanu Sovereignty will save humanity.

Our sacrifice is our gift. Our vision is our hope. Together, they are our desperate plea to save a lost humanity.

[Xyntech]

Our sacrifice is our gift. Our vision is our hope. Together, they are our desperate plea to save a lost humanity.

You've given up on water and are just eating the kool-aid mix dry, aren't you? :D

[sylphaen]

You've given up on water and are just eating the kool-aid mix dry, aren't you? :D

LOL

The peace pipe is loaded to the brim with the stuff. I'd even add that after close to 10 years in purple, the constant smog inside the mag is an integral part of the vehicle.
:lol:

[Canaris]

You guys see the new picture of Briggs working on that Vanu statue artifact they found out in the moon belt, man that looks freaking sweet!






































http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_eayNgNhZ1JM/StxOmebMqMI/AAAAAAAAALQ/VTs3428EE2k/s320/IMG_0477.JPG
HAHA :p

[Graywolves]

As a devout TR....You're all wierd.


I think the story makes VS all that more interesting. Although I'm curious to know where we are in the timeline of things, where's Auraxis and the wormhole and the TR leaders.

I want to know who my Super Overlord is.



-also-

Is a degree in xenobiology really real? I couldn't imagine a stupider degree for anyone to ever get.

"Hey guys, I got this degree based on pure speculation, I don't know what jobs care but isn't this cool?"

I wouldn't even take that guy with me on my expedition. I'd go stargate and take archeologists, cultural experts, bilinguists (like knows every fucking language) and a psychologist.

[Traak]

As a Vanu I agree with this idea. We are not racist. We don't care if you are gay.

Well, wiping out gays isn't genocide. Isn't it homocide?:lol:

[Talek Krell]

Well, wiping out gays isn't genocide. Isn't it homocide?:lol:. . .
Is there some alternate definition of genocide that says "the deliberate and systematic extermination of a national, racial, political, or cultural group. Unless of course it's just homosexuals."?


Is a degree in xenobiology really real? I couldn't imagine a stupider degree for anyone to ever get.

"Hey guys, I got this degree based on pure speculation, I don't know what jobs care but isn't this cool?"That's....actually that's a pretty good question.

[Raka Maru]

RakaMaru's mini chain gun barrel nearly touches the ground as he lets the fog clear from his goggles. His audio amplifier implant registered every word of the Vanu guru's exposition to the mesmerized group encircled around the crystal beverage bowl.

His sniffle behind the trees, cause a few heads to turn just in time for them to witness the full moon sparkle off of the hundreds of shells that fell to the ground; sizzling in the dew, each one, trailing wisps like tiny ghosts... "That was beautiful".

[FastAndFree]

RakaMaru's mini chain gun barrel nearly touches the ground as he lets the fog clear from his goggles. His audio amplifier implant registered every word of the Vanu guru's exposition to the mesmerized group encircled around the crystal beverage bowl.

His sniffle behind the trees, cause a few heads to turn just in time for them to witness the full moon sparkle off of the hundreds of shells that fell to the ground; sizzling in the dew, each one, trailing wisps like tiny ghosts... "That was beautiful".

It works better if you eject only the shell cases, but I guess there is a reason why you are issued simple projectile weapons...

[Canaris]

It works better if you eject only the shell cases, but I guess there is a reason why you are issued simple projectile weapons...

Actually
the shell is the case, the bit it fires is the bullet but I wouldn't expect the disco light brigade to know the difference :p



ZING! :D

[Captain1nsaneo]

Is there some alternate definition of genocide that says "the deliberate and systematic extermination of a national, racial, political, or cultural group. Unless of course it's just homosexuals."?

Well if it counts as genocide or not is actually based entirely how loose you are with the definition of the word "behavior". But if you do it becomes that the ones who are committing genocide against homosexuals are in fact homosexuals.

First let's define genocide, there's a UN convention (http://www.hrweb.org/legal/genocide.html) on it so we can use their definition
In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

Let's look at "Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group". Outside of human parthenogenesis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parthenogenesis) you can't naturally reproduce in a homosexual relationship. Ergo, a strict homosexual is preventing births in their group. So if homosexuals qualify as "a national, ethnical, racial or religious group" they are committing genocide against themselves. I find this technicality amusing.

So why does the definition of behavior matter? Well look at the definition of genocide. National groups are either those bound by states or a group sharing culture and/or ethnicity. There is no Homoistan so we have to rely on the second definition whose bits are already in the list (culture/ethnicity).

Ethnical is the next definition which can be "Ethnic or of or relating to ethnology." Ethnology is effectively the study of human culture so that's another mark for culture. Ethnic is the more fun of the two but I'm going to ignore its more eccentric definitions and go for "Of or relating to a group of people having common racial, national, religious or cultural origins."

I'm not going to bother with "racial or religious group" as neither of those apply. (I am also now noticing that the convention missed an oxford comma) So it comes down to culture which has shown up in every previous definition though not in the main text. Culture's primary definition brings us to needing to know the definition of society and nation the latter of which we've covered. Society brings us to "norms of behavior" oddly enough the word behavior also shows up in one of culture's lower definitions.

And that's why we need to define "behavior". Well Google puts it as "2: The way in which an animal or person acts in response to a particular situation or stimulus." Wikipedia says "1: The way a living creature behaves or acts." And dictionary.com has "1. manner of behaving or acting."

So yes, if we go several definitions deep we can say that genocide covers homosexuals. But it would also mean that western governments are committing genocide daily. Not against homosexuals but against pedophiles. Go back and look at definition (e) "Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group" pretty sure that happens all the time and if we're defining genocide to include sexual behavior it counts.

May I suggest you find a new word to get upset over? Like "homoromanticide"?

tl;dr
Learn what's worth getting upset over, like Saudi Arabia's treatment of anyone who isn't Male, straight, and Muslim. Good day.

[Graywolves]

tl;dr
Learn what's worth getting upset over, like Saudi Arabia's treatment of anyone who isn't Male, straight, and Muslim. Good day.[/QUOTE]

I know! Why the fuck do I need to be muslim?

[Raka Maru]

It works better if you eject only the shell cases, but I guess there is a reason why you are issued simple projectile weapons...

:sniper: Flying projectiles! Accept no substitute!

Actually
the shell is the case, the bit it fires is the bullet but I wouldn't expect the disco light brigade to know the difference :p

ZING! :D
:trrocks:

Gotta say, this back story has been the best read I've had in months.

The depth of Briggs psychosis or rather spiritual experience has placed barney in a new light for me, I will feel sad every time one of you falls to the ground now. :)

[Talek Krell]

Learn what's worth getting upset over, like Saudi Arabia's treatment of anyone who isn't Male, straight, and Muslim. Good day.You waste 9 paragraphs to tell me that I'm correct and then, presumably based on the exhaustive summary of my mood and emotional state that I didn't include in the post, insist that I'm too upset over the matter?

You're kind of an idiot. :)

[Captain1nsaneo]

You waste 9 paragraphs to tell me that I'm correct and then, presumably based on the exhaustive summary of my mood and emotional state that I didn't include in the post, insist that I'm too upset over the matter?

You're kind of an idiot. :)

Great, you know I have a character flaw that requires me to defend anything I say right? (It's the reason why I suck at /comall)

I did not say you were correct, nor did I say you were incorrect. It's all in how pedantic you want to be. Personally I do not believe that the convention as written was meant to apply to homosexuals. If it did it wouldn't have been passed by the UN general assembly as a number of the countries who are signatories (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_parties_to_the_Genocide_Convention) actively hunt down gays.

Also that was a piss poor ad hominem (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem) attack. Do better next time.

[Talek Krell]

So yes, if we go several definitions deep we can say that genocide covers homosexuals.This would appear to me to be an admission that my statement was accurate provided only that we use the actual definitions of the words.

My opinion on your personal attributes is unrelated, and proves nothing about your arguments. I'm not even certain what it is that you're arguing. I just don't think you're being very bright.