Big debate "Game balance"

[SuperMorto]

Now I know the VS maxes cant fly I would like to discuss game balance. I know these guys are working hard, but taking that away from the VS maxes is like taking the purple from their clothing. Its a massive miss in my eyes.

Now I know game balance is a problem, but hold on it was done before. And some may say that flying maxes in PS1 was bad, well remember a flying max could not be escorted by a team or platoon. Balancing it out nice.

Now we have fly troops in PS2, wich to me seems a good idea. But to take from one and give to all seems like the game is being "Halo'd" just making it flatter and flatter.

I have a question for the devs. What does the VS have that none of the other 2 factions have? And don't say floating tanks. Please dont take away without letting us know some of the good stuff. Or we will have to make things up like,"VS maxes will have a nice purple stick with shinys on it"

http://www.print-ibles.com/plogger/plog-content/images/baby-collection/my-sweet-baby-girl/purple-wand.png

And another things about balance, you have to balance what your community thinks, and currently a big fan of everything PS2 has lost a little interest. Yes folks that one thing has put me of a little. (or the lack of not knowing what will replace it) I have a good imagination, and without facts I fill in the gaps with the knowledge I have about the subject in mind. And currently im filling it with crap.

Rant over. We can talk about balance again.

[Coreldan]

What does TR and NC MAX have in comparison to VS?

I don't think it was really a case of being the best/OP MAX or anything in PS, but I understand that it's an issue now that light armors are supposed to get jump packs.

Overall VS still seems to have the strongest niche even if they lose a jumping MAX, don't see why the long face :D

So yeah, I don't see this as a case of symmetric balancing, more of a result of giving jump packs to light assault. I dont mind asymmetric balance, but I don't really mind symmetric'ish balance either as long as there are something other than colours and name that set factions apart.

[Graywolves]

VS and NC are OP


Buff TR

[SuperMorto]

What does TR and NC MAX have in comparison to VS?

I don't think it was really a case of being the best/OP MAX or anything in PS, but I understand that it's an issue now that light armors are supposed to get jump packs.

Overall VS still seems to have the strongest niche even if they lose a jumping MAX, don't see why the long face :D

So yeah, I don't see this as a case of symmetric balancing, more of a result of giving jump packs to light assault. I dont mind asymmetric balance, but I don't really mind symmetric'ish balance either as long as there are something other than colours and name that set factions apart.

Ok as a VS Rexo the last thing you wanted to see was either one of those maxes. They put fear into out troops as they owned what essentially was the bulk of any army the troops. Now can you say you have ever feared a VS max? No they were piss poor at everything but shooting aircraft and jumping.

[Sifer2]

Well that sucks ass. I was really looking forward to playing a VS MAX more than anything else actually. Especially since they talked about the game having more vertical terrain than before. Which is probably exactly why VS MAX flying ability has been cut. Would probably be too good in the new game with how they are designing things.

But then that makes you wonder what ability the VS MAX will get.

[Coreldan]

They were scary enough to turn me into a steaming pile, seeing that I was usually just sporting CE/FDU rexo.

[SuperMorto]

If this game works and populates as intended, then balance really won't ever be an issue as you will be shooting and getting shot by multiple people at once. I don't see "one on one" battles happening that often.

Im going to go off my own topic here. Thing is Duke, im not likeing what im seeing. I know I know, the game looks amazing visually (and it does) but its the guts im worried about. I mean why do all 3 sides need tanks? Why couldn't on side do without them? Same with aircraft why couldn't one side not have them? And some of you might say "balance" well the thing is you can balance anything its a scientific fact.

Say for example:

The VS had all there aircraft taken away....... Now I hear you say oooohhhh myyyy goooddddd!!! What will they do?????? Well fact is give them >>>all<<< including maxes cloaking abilities and some fast moving ground vehicle and your back on track. Bare in mind this is a quick example.

Now say the NC had no maxes at all!!! OOOHHHH MYYY GOODDD what will they do?????? well give them drilling galaxies than can go underground and pop up anywhere on the map boom! Its balanced. (remember these are quick examples)

Right finally the TR. Take away all the big tanks..............yes you guessed it OHHH MY GODD what will they do????? Well give them something to balance it.................... A fucking big mech!!! yes a fucking big mech! and your back on track.

Now I know all of the above is slightly over exaggerated but I hope you all get what I mean. I dont want to play as any faction and for it to feel 60% like any other. I want them to feel very different.

[SuperMorto]

They were scary enough to turn me into a steaming pile, seeing that I was usually just sporting CE/FDU rexo.

Thats bad luck, not balance.

[Coreldan]

That would be taking asymmetric balance way too far IMO. Taking away a HUGE part of the game just cos you play certain faction.

I don't mind fairly big faction perks like jumping MAXes that VS had, but I think it would be a far worse mistake to actually make one side not have tanks or the other to not have aircrafts. No matter how well it would be compensated elsewhere, I do not think that would be a good idea.

Not to mention, the more asymmetric the balance it, the harder it is to actually balance it. While it can be done, but unbalance kills playerbase pretty fast too.

[Bravix]

My assumption is that they're going to give the VS jets for boosting around on the ground, Armored Core style. Based on the concept art, they certainly have thrusters.

I however am very disappointed that they can't fly. It was pretty fun. Sure, it didn't really give you a combat edge indoors (serverside made it hard to effectively dodge deci's) but dammit I liked jumping over walls and scaring the shit out of the TR.

Edit: If the VS MAX gets a normal run speed of infantry and boosting jets I'd totally be fine with the loss of flight :D

[Tapman]

Im going to go off my own topic here. Thing is Duke, im not likeing what im seeing. I know I know, the game looks amazing visually (and it does) but its the guts im worried about. I mean why do all 3 sides need tanks? Why couldn't on side do without them? Same with aircraft why couldn't one side not have them? And some of you might say "balance" well the thing is you can balance anything its a scientific fact.

Say for example:

The VS had all there aircraft taken away....... Now I hear you say oooohhhh myyyy goooddddd!!! What will they do?????? Well fact is give them >>>all<<< including maxes cloaking abilities and some fast moving ground vehicle and your back on track. Bare in mind this is a quick example.

Now say the NC had no maxes at all!!! OOOHHHH MYYY GOODDD what will they do?????? well give them drilling galaxies than can go underground and pop up anywhere on the map boom! Its balanced. (remember these are quick examples)

Right finally the TR. Take away all the big tanks..............yes you guessed it OHHH MY GODD what will they do????? Well give them something to balance it.................... A fucking big mech!!! yes a fucking big mech! and your back on track.

Now I know all of the above is slightly over exaggerated but I hope you all get what I mean. I dont want to play as any faction and for it to feel 60% like any other. I want them to feel very different.

Your version of balance applied to bowling balls sounds like you just want to explode them all. The majority of the balancing is going to be done during and after Beta, the players who prefer their faction can give devs feedback about how they would like it to play/feel.

*sigh* I am hoping for a Beta announcement for Christmas/New Years.

[SuperMorto]

Your version of balance applied to bowling balls sounds like you just want to explode them all. The majority of the balancing is going to be done during and after Beta, the players who prefer their faction can give devs feedback about how they would like it to play/feel.

*sigh* I am hoping for a Beta announcement for Christmas/New Years.

I know my ideas seem crazy. And they are. But im not wanting the above, I would just like to see some good fitting differences between the faction and not have them all feeling the same.

Thing is shouting and making a big deal about things gets you noticed. I just dont want to see Planetside 2 fail. I only moan and twist about the game as I want it to succeed.

[Peacemaker]

VS AI Max was bad ass. I pwned many on my VS alt with that thing, and jump jets on the max's WAS OP. No other max could suddenly be ontop of your tower. Adapt and survive.

[DviddLeff]

I don't mind VS losing the jets, but I do wonder what it would be like if there were more differentiation between the factions.

However we are seeing radically different projectiles for VS weapons compared to the NC and TR, and seeing differences between the aircraft.

[NewSith]

I understand that you're proposing something equal to chess without bishops for one player and castles for the other one.

If that's how it is, I say having all sides having everything is fine. Otherwise it might be that to do something you like and you're best at you'd have to select empire that you don't want to play...

[SuperMorto]

I understand that you're proposing something equal to chess without bishops for one player and castles for the other one.

If that's how it is, I say having all sides having everything is fine. Otherwise it might be that to do something you like and you're best at you'd have to select empire that you don't want to play...

Chess sounds more like Modern Warfare! everybody has the same shit. This isn't chess. This is Planetside.

On another note, I could be wrong, its a fact. i might just be spitting blood for nothing! But i have yet to see what will make the VS, "the VS" etc etc.

[NewSith]

Chess sounds more like Modern Warfare! everybody has the same shit. This isn't chess. This is Planetside.

I'd say PS has way much more in common with chess than MW. For starters ps and chess require thinking... :)

[SuperMorto]

Ill put it this way:

VS

TR

NC

The above are all the same with a few differences.

Now I want to see more of this:

}}==VS=={{

--<<TR>>--

[[==NC==]]

But not this:

}}==VS=={{

--<<TR>>--

[[==NC==]]

Eeeeee I get up to some crazy shit in this site.

[NewSith]

Now I want to see more of this:

>>==VS==<<

--((TR))--

[[==NC==]]

Design issue /Fixed

[ShockNC]

VS and NC are OP


Buff TR

Oh Graywolves, it's not our fault that the TR were designed to do less for more manpower :P

[Sifer2]

I'd say PS has way much more in common with chess than MW. For starters ps and chess require thinking... :)


Even the original Planetside isn't like Chess though. Since Chess is entirely symmetrical with the exception of White getting first move. But I agree it would be going too far to do things like a faction without Tanks. Since then its less of a faction choice, and more of a choose which side has the role you want to play instead.

The way they do it now is all sides have the same roles they just handle a bit differently. Which I think works nicely so long as one doesn't do the role drastically better than the others. Which would go back to enforcing choice of faction based on what role you want to play.

[Higby]

Empires in Planetside 2 have more differences than they have in PlanetSide.

[ShockFC]

VS and NC are OP


Buff TR

oh, how wrong you are.

[Rivenshield]

Empires in Planetside 2 have more differences than they have in PlanetSide.

That's good. Because based solely on what crumbs we have to go on, it almost seems as though they're blurring together....

As a die-hard Terran, I agree with the rest of the thread. At least let VS maxes have a jump-jet cert near the top of the MAX cert tree. They're SUPPOSED to jump. Geez.

[Sifer2]

Empires in Planetside 2 have more differences than they have in PlanetSide.


Oh I believe you. My faith would be stronger with some examples. ;)

[Xyntech]

The VS have their own aircraft now, with crazy flying physics. Don't just dismiss the hovering tank either, as if it is nothing. With locational damage and weaker side and rear armor, the fact that the Magrider can strafe will be huge.

We get our own grenade too, although we haven't heard as much about it.

Maybe they are toning back a few of the more extreme differences, but there are still a lot of classic PS1 VS features still and place, and there is the promise of many more differences than PS1 had.

Jumping MAXes were cool and I'm sad to see them go, but move the fuck on. We already know that the TR MAXes will have lockdown again and I find it highly unlikely that we'll be seeing the other two empires gain the ability to lockdown, so by deduction, VS MAXes will still have some kind of cool, empire specific abilities.

I doubt it will be cooler than flying MAXes, but you never know.

[Coreldan]

Indeed, you can't ignore the hovering tank no matter how you try if you try to argument against VS uniqueity (is that a word? :D) It's a HUGE thing, you just take it for so given. Then there are the recoilless pew pew weapons, even if it means less damage or something, that's another thing different. Then you seem to be getting a uniquely handling aircraft too. Own grenade... :D

[Princess Frosty]

I'd prefer to keep the empires as unique as possible without worrying too heavily about balance.

The fact is that balance is mostly down to how the distribution of players on the servers work out. Back in the day the US servers had TR dominating the other factions which lead to many nerfs, however on Werner the EU server the TR were the underdog and constantly got knocked on their ass day after day, I spent many months monitoring the stats at the end of the day and it was obvious that NC and VS shared almost 50% of the wins each and TR had next to none.

So trying to balance those 2 teams anymore than they were is impossible, they're dominating in one place and losing in another, that's not a weapon/vehcile balance issue, it's a player balance issue.

I think balancing the classes and the gear will only get you so far, the bigger issue is the distribution of players, specifically the skilled/organised players.

[Coreldan]

I'd prefer to keep the empires as unique as possible without worrying too heavily about balance.

The fact is that balance is mostly down to how the distribution of players on the servers work out. Back in the day the US servers had TR dominating the other factions which lead to many nerfs, however on Werner the EU server the TR were the underdog and constantly got knocked on their ass day after day, I spent many months monitoring the stats at the end of the day and it was obvious that NC and VS shared almost 50% of the wins each and TR had next to none.

So trying to balance those 2 teams anymore than they were is impossible, they're dominating in one place and losing in another, that's not a weapon/vehcile balance issue, it's a player balance issue.

I think balancing the classes and the gear will only get you so far, the bigger issue is the distribution of players, specifically the skilled/organised players.

This is actually a good point. The devs of APB also said something along the same lines back in the day about some weapon balance issue. In NA the weapon was just fine with nothing alarming about it being OP, while looking at EU stats and players, they were finding it extremely OP.

[SKYeXile]

oh, how wrong you are.

So how many more NC have you killed compared to TR?

<----20,000

Could it because there is more of them?
they're under powered?
they're bad?
they have terrible AA cover and my name is SKYeXile?
I hate them more?
or could it be all of the above?

[Tapman]

The VS have their own aircraft now, with crazy flying physics. Don't just dismiss the hovering tank either, as if it is nothing. With locational damage and weaker side and rear armor, the fact that the Magrider can strafe will be huge.

Higby, idea! Small target on the rear of the Magrider that if hit will destroy the magnetic-lift system and we can watch them slam into the ground just before/during their destruction. :evil:

[Redshift]

It's pretty obvious there are going to be places to enter a base where only light assault can get to because of the JJ's.

Now imagine how unfair it would be if one empire could also take MAXes in there.

That's the reason, and you're just going to have to live with it i'm afraid

[Coreldan]

Redshift, I wouldn't say that will be the case. I think it's more of a case of light assault being able to take a shortcut and jump over teh base wall from any direction, while the MAXes will have to go through the bottleneck of the base entrance.

I sorta have really hard time believing they are gonna make areas where MAXes couldn't enter at all.

[Redshift]

Redshift, I wouldn't say that will be the case. I think it's more of a case of light assault being able to take a shortcut and jump over teh base wall from any direction, while the MAXes will have to go through the bottleneck of the base entrance.

I sorta have really hard time believing they are gonna make areas where MAXes couldn't enter at all.

I think that's exactly what they're going to do. Although i wouldn't say at all. A roof entrance that's only accesible by JJ could still be reached by dropping MAXes from a gal, one empire not needing a gal obviously unbalances things.

You could see this in a basic form in PS1 defending a tower from the VS meant having a shed load of AV up the top whereas defending against NC/TR you didn't need to bother. It didn't matter too much in PS1 but if you specifically design JJ area's or entrances then the effect will be bigger.

[CutterJohn]

Empires in Planetside 2 have more differences than they have in PlanetSide.

The empire differences were always my least favorite aspect of PS. Gaping holes left in the various empires armories that none of the eggheads in procurement ever bother to fill.

Might not be so bad if progression didn't effectively lock you into a race. Its not like SC2 where you can switch to a different team at the end of a match, or do 2v2s with a buddy of a different race in order to balance out your selections weaknesses.

I don't mind little differences either, it was just the big ones. Sure, mags were fast and had lower armor, and vannies were slow and had more. Fair enough. But vannies ONLY got the Infantry Rape Mortar of Doom, and mags only got the Death to all vehicles, aircraft, and locked down MAX unit infinite sniper cannons. One would think the procurement board of the NC would say hey.. Why can't we get an Armor Piercing Discarding Sabot round? Apparently armies used these about 500 years ago, and they were quite effective. And VS techs would be tasked with figuring out how to utilize the Flail in their designs, and would develop a small Flail turret for use in their tanks. Are the TR brains, who developed the BFRs, incapable of figuring out a shotgun?

[Canaris]

I have a question for the devs. What does the VS have that none of the other 2 factions have?.

the VS don't deserve any special kind of love, they should have the same things as the NC & TR, that is balance.

You're just greedy

[ringring]

Empires in Planetside 2 have more differences than they have in PlanetSide.
Good!

I like the idea of difference very much, even if it makes balance more difficult.

Regarding VS maxes, as TR I never thought the flying ability was overpower, but then I carry a striker and a flying max was as good as dead.

I can see why in PS2 a flying max in combination with Light Assault could seem a bit OP.

[Crator]

the VS don't deserve any special kind of love, they should have the same things as the NC & TR, that is balance.

You're just greedy

Empires in Planetside 2 have more differences than they have in PlanetSide.

According to Higby this isn't how it will be...

[Canaris]

According to Higby this isn't how it will be...

I think we'll find out he's referring more about the styles of the three Empires

TR - Speed
NC - Power
VS - Versatility

I'll admit I've played as the VS in PS1, of course everyone has at some stage and I was always ended up using a Max unit, their ability to jump jet gave them such a huge advantage in siege situations and if the advantage was there I took it.

I can't count how many times I've just waited at a high up tower/base in an AI max for someone inside to open the door and just swept over them in a killing spree. Even back then when laughing manically at the poor helpless infs while I burned them down a part of me thought it was kinda unfair.
Also during base defences getting your max up on top of something that was really had to see from the ground gave crazy advantages.

Not to mention hiding in trees as a AA max

It's that kind of imbalance I'm hoping they'll avoid in PS2

[CutterJohn]

Not to mention hiding in trees as a AA max

It's that kind of imbalance I'm hoping they'll avoid in PS2

Indeed. But a better response would have been giving every max the capability to fit JJs.

[FoxBait]

I think we all need to pay these Devs the respect they deserve and have some faith that if they have the balls to tackle the crazy task of designing a three-way MMOFPS, like PlanetSide, with a ten year entrenched, rabid fan-base... balance and diversity are two of the biggest features on their list.

Sure, you could argue that "we haven't seen enough of the game yet! Why haven't we seen enough of the game yet?!" But the game doesn't even have a release date yet, much less one that is nail bitingly close.

In fact, we have the miracle of have the creative director of the entire game chatting with us on a regular basis and ensuring us that the game balance is something they care about too!

As a Vanu4Life, I too was sad when they announce that JJs were leaving for our MAXs... but let's trust Higby to come up with something awesome instead. ;)

[Graywolves]

I've killed about the same amount of NC and VS.

[ShockFC]

So how many more NC have you killed compared to TR?

<----20,000

Could it because there is more of them?
they're under powered?
they're bad?
they have terrible AA cover and my name is SKYeXile?
I hate them more?
or could it be all of the above?

I'm gonna opt with terrible AA cover and your name is SKYexile... Also, I have 10k more NC kills than TR. I think the same answer applies to me though.

[Helwyr]

I think we'll find out he's referring more about the styles of the three Empires

TR - Speed
NC - Power
VS - Versatility


What are jump jets if not Versatility?

[Coreldan]

What are jump jets if not Versatility?

I think you are still just seeing it wrong. I don't think they removed the jump jets off the VS MAX cos it would've been unfair against other MAXes. I believe the true reason was behind Light Assault getting jump jets, so it was taken off VS max.

You still have more versatility than other factions anyways :D

[SuperMorto]

Empires in Planetside 2 have more differences than they have in PlanetSide.

Cheers Higby, but thats not enough. I know you guys are working hard and I know you all have a passion for the game but so do we. Problem is we cant see what your doing. And I know you cant give to much away. But when you take things from a game that most people liked we gona pipe up about it. Please understand this isnt a dig at you folks.

But without getting the sack, can you tell us any of the differences that we have not seen for a max unit? even if its not the VS. I would just love to know as many will what you have in store.

We just hate to see things go, and then not be able to fill the gaps in with anything, just mindless speculation :)

Anyway keep up the good work! (whatever you lot are doing!!) ;)

[Hamma]

Higby said via Twitter that the Vanu special abilities were still being worked on, so there are no details on it yet.

[NewSith]

Higby said via Twitter that the Vanu special abilities were still being worked on, so there are no ES abilities yet.

/fixed

*trollface*

[Lonehunter]

Cheers Higby, but thats not enough.
I think that's plenty dude, lol. You're getting a response from the Creative Director of the game we're so desperately waiting on. That doesn't happen often.

I honestly don't know what else you can expect him to say. This is one of those issues so deep into game balance it's impossible to accurately discuss at this point.

Maybe you can fulfill the jumpjet fetish as Light Assault, maybe there will be a universal Implant even MAXs can get that makes them jump high, maybe there is a completely unique, awesome, and undisclosed feature about VS MAXs that you will love even more then jump jets....


We just don't know

[Captain1nsaneo]

So how many more NC have you killed compared to TR?

<----20,000

Could it because there is more of them?
they're under powered?
they're bad?
they have terrible AA cover and my name is SKYeXile?
I hate them more?
or could it be all of the above?

4195 if Planetside.com can be trusted. (it can't)

I'm going to go with hate them more. I know that up until very recently the NC were always more insipid of the two sides and if we had the choice we'd always attack the NC.

The special abilities are probably all under development. Currently they're working on the maps, art, and weapon variations. All the more exciting stuff like side ability differences are probably in a very fluid state.

[BuzzCutPsycho]

A lot of PS1 balance issues stemmed from the fact that everything was decided via an indoor battle. Indoors weapons like the Jackhammer and Lasher shined whereas weapons like the MCG were a bit lacking.

If the fights are seamlessly going from large indoor battles to tight urban battles you'll see a lot less issues. If you stay away from small scale fighting balance itself wont be put under a microscope and certain things wont be nearly as bad. Balance is something that every game should (obviously) strive for but if it comes at the expense of flavor I'd be very disappointing. I don't mind being a bit underpowered so long as my Empire's play style is unique.

Want a good example of poor balance? Look at WoW in BC. Instead of balancing Shamans and Paladins they gave them to both sides. This butchered the feel of the game but made it easier to balance. Why was this even an issue? Because everything meaningful in WoW was achieved at a small scale and thus under the microscope in terms of balance.