Trial by your peers?

[SKYeXile]

So its obvious sony is hard at working designing their game to be as hacker and asshat free as possible how do you do you do it? I'v been looking into LoL(Leage of ledgends) system of trail by your peers, they call it the tribunal. you can read more about it here: http://na.leagueoflegends.com/legal/tribunal

Its goal is to obviously lessen the load on the GM's, so things like a good player been reported as a hacker never make it to the GM's and they can bother with dealing with the proper hackers and griefers.

in A F2P MMO asshaats are inevitable, Higby has talked about this briefly:

as usual the sky isn't falling... empires will have access to different camo patterns which will uniquely incorporate shades of their faction colors, we have spotting systems to enhance that, friendlies will always be on your minimap and have an overhead name / icon by default (dependent on distance) so you always know which guys not to shoot, and grief is being reevaluated and redesigned to fit with the gameplay that a F2P shooter.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SKYeXile
So what you're saying is if i pay i get less grief?
No way, just talking about ways to make grief relevant deterrent when someone can easily and freely create new accounts to do stuff like TK everyone defending a base to make it easier for their real team to capture, etc. more punishing for younger characters, forgiveness when actively killing enemies, opt-in for the attacked player to actually assign grief, grief reports in sprees cause faster repercussions, that sort of thing.

Yeah, some form of hardware fingerprinting is something we've been discussing. There are always ways to reassign your MAC address, change that ID file we put on your PC, etc... someone would spend 10 minutes making a little visual basic app that let you switch between "installs" if we put something like that in. It's sadly all about finding the way that makes it as much of a waste of time for the hacker to get around and therefore not worth doing. We have a lot of plans to thwart this sort of stuff, but I'm not going to discuss them for obvious reasons.
(this was all posted in this thread: http://www.planetside-universe.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38001&highlight=grief



but griefing people isn't just about shooting them, its more than that, its limiting their ability to play the game, while its hard for players to police and judge this in a open world MMO like planetside without proper tools to view the offenders it could be done and misuse of the tools and report system would have to be judged very harshly.

Some forms of this would be standing in front of somebodys shots deliberately to give them greif, driving into somebody to give them grief…planting motion sensors in a spawn tube so people cant get out….


Id like to avoid talking about hacking prevention, its obvious SOE are going to do be doing all they can to combat that. What im asking is would you like to system of players been judged by their peers and people that need to be punished be assigned to to a GM for the final verdict.

Remember, this system while the players can pardon a player, they cant punish them only a GM can do that.

I think it’s a decent system, it would mean GM's don’t have to filter though BS appeals and focus on the ones we see fit for moderation and punishment.


this thread was inspired by:http://massively.joystiq.com/2011/12/25/over-one-percent-of-league-of-legends-players-have-been-banned/#comments it shows you some stats on LOLs tribunal.

[Crator]

this thread was inspired by:http://massively.joystiq.com/2011/12/25/over-one-percent-of-league-of-legends-players-have-been-banned/#comments it shows you some stats on LOLs tribunal.

Interesting system they got there... Would be nice for PS2...

[SKYeXile]

*facepalms* why do I even bother.

[Traak]

My name is Traak, I don't cheat, and therefore, I approve this message.

[SKYeXile]

My name is Traak, I don't cheat, and therefore, I approve this message.

This system while it does moderate cheaters and hackers, its more built to moderate asshats, retards, exploiters, griefers who insist on making others players gameplay less enjoyable. no 3rd party program can detect if the person is a jerk, they can design the game so that its harder to be a jerk, but there is always going to be jerks, especially with friendly fire.

[SKYeXile]

Friendly fire, compaints, grief system. These three things stop jerks.

*double facepalm*

yes...but they still goto a GM to be moderated and they would be getting spammed with BS complaints that need no moderating at all, probably from some bad or butt hurt player. The system is designed so the players judge them first and hopefully only the ones that warrant action on their account goto GM's.

[Accuser]

Friendly fire, compaints, grief system. These three things stop jerks.

You didn't read one damn part of the first post, did you?
And while I've got your attention, what would stop someone from using a hack that imitates one of your "200 certified programs"?

[SKYeXile]

MD5 hash
Duh.

I read the original post. I disagree with a community of this magnitude being able to shun anyone they see fit. When this happens, you get a dictatorship that discredits anyone who can bring competition that is greater than their own.

Player BR 1 plays for the first time, goes on a killing spree because he's on fucking cocaine or uber amounts of redbull gets a tribunal. NC bastard.

Yea he gets appealed, it goes to tribunal...gets rejected. or perhaps it does not, and goes to a GM for punishment...like it would without the tribunal and the GM rejects it.

i did post this in my first post, because i knew some people just would not get it, but here it is again:

Remember, this system, while the players can pardon a player, they cant punish them only a GM can do that.

[Crator]

We'll just have to see. If having F2P will have issues with hackers most likely. They'll have to do something about it if it gets out of hand....

[SKYeXile]

Edit: Debate me. I would so much like to stop and say you are right and given the circumstances that everyone was intelligent and mature enough to adhere to a plan like this where thousands are involved, I would love to know how you see to make this work. Voting maybe?

I don't discredit the idea. I really do not. But we all know how people are, especially in clicks. In these 'clicks' we have the potential for thousands of people to be involved. Why should one person have to answer to prominent party if he did nothing wrong at all but play the game very well or rightfully retaliate against, say, the leader of that outfit who was an asshat to BR1 first?

Pointless, you don't understand the the concept.

[xSlideShow]

Seems like a fairly good system. Lots of checks in LoL's system.

[Xyntech]

The concept wouldn't have much of any room for players using the system to abuse other players. It amounts to a community filtration system to lighten the load on the GMs. No player would ever be punishing anyone, only filtering the load so that the real offenders get punished more quickly.

This would obviously help as part of the anti cheat solution, but like Sky said, the biggest use of this would be to reduce the amount of asshats fucking with people inside the games own rules.

Grief points are great, but they can also be abused, forcing grief on someone who doesn't deserve it.

He pointed out a lot of these things already. I'm not sure what the issue is. The system seems pretty fool proof, with not much in the way of negatives to offset the positives.

It's never going to be the primary way of dealing with hackers, but it will help, and more importantly, it will be a way to deal with game disrupting troublemakers who would never get caught through an automatic system.

The team obviously are fans of LoL, so hopefully this is something that they are aware of and are able to implement.

[SKYeXile]

The concept wouldn't have much of any room for players using the system to abuse other players. It amounts to a community filtration system to lighten the load on the GMs. No player would ever be punishing anyone, only filtering the load so that the real offenders get punished more quickly.

This would obviously help as part of the anti cheat solution, but like Sky said, the biggest use of this would be to reduce the amount of asshats fucking with people inside the games own rules.

Grief points are great, but they can also be abused, forcing grief on someone who doesn't deserve it.

He pointed out a lot of these things already. I'm not sure what the issue is. The system seems pretty fool proof, with not much in the way of negatives to offset the positives.

It's never going to be the primary way of dealing with hackers, but it will help, and more importantly, it will be a way to deal with game disrupting troublemakers who would never get caught through an automatic system.

The team obviously are fans of LoL, so hopefully this is something that they are aware of and are able to implement.

Exactly, its not like you could have a hacker in your guild and your entire guild dismiss the ticket or something, ticks are assigned randomly, and as a fail-safe only tickets from another server.

[Effective]

Duke, STOP POSTING, you clearly have no idea what the hell you're talking about and it is plainly obvious YOU DID NOT READ THE POST.

The idea of using a tribunal system to view griefers sounds like a good idea to me, but it's a little complex (as you mentioned) in an open world mmo. The information obtained in the LOL Tribunal is usually pretty minimal, you can see chat logs, item builds, and previous reports on the player from other games.

Still, not a terrible idea, especially the bit about making it easier for GM's.

[Coreldan]

Gaming does not rule my world, I probably would end up not playing if they tried to close the shit I run in the background.

I am not going to reboot after each time I've played Planetside. This would alienate a lot of people who arn't that hardcore about Planetside. I am, but theres a limit with the amount of shit I would take from a game too :D

That said, the idea about the game checking your dxdiag at every launch could work? If the player gets banned, the submitted dxdiag gets banned. If the same dxdiag tries to play on another account, no luck!

[Hamma]

I'm in agreement that Duke should stop talking in this topic. Really man - try and grasp the entire concept not just what you see.

I think the Tribunal idea is a very interesting one and not one prone to abuse. As mentioned the company still has final stay what happens.

I think this would be a perfect compliment to all of the other anti hacking measures that are put into place. There is simply NO FOOLPROOF way to stop all hacking with technology there has to be a human aspect.

[Rumblepit]

Hamma is right, human aspect has to be involved . but i dont think the will allow any players to appeal a ban on someone else . nore will they ever allow admin tools to be used by the public.until they figure a way to keep them from making new accounts there is no point in wasting peoples time. who would wanted to take the time to review chases of grief and hacking when all the player has to do when he or she is banned is make a new account. im all about doing my part, and i have banned more hackers then most have ever seen. but its like washing dishes with a apple, it dose no good.

[Xyntech]

Hamma is right, human aspect has to be involved . but i dont think the will allow any players to appeal a ban on someone else . nore will they ever allow admin tools to be used by the public.until they figure a way to keep them from making new accounts there is no point in wasting peoples time. who would wanted to take the time to review chases of grief and hacking when all the player has to do when he or she is banned is make a new account. im all about doing my part, and i have banned more hackers then most have ever seen. but its like washing dishes with a apple, it dose no good.

Psst... League of Legends is F2P. Keep it under your hat.

[SgtMAD]

Psst... League of Legends is F2P. Keep it under your hat.

now you are rumor mongering,that guy is delicate,he is still posting in that F2P thread

[CutterJohn]

Can't see what good a tribunal would do. Can't have people voting on someones innocence or guilt if they aren't even around to see whats going on.

Just have a simple report system so that people can easily report someone when they see hacking. More reports get pushed to the top so the GMs, who will (hopefully) have the actual logs, i.e. proof, can make a decision.

Someone in an invincible vehicle or running around with a particle beam on a cloaker will quickly accumulate a LOT of reports from players, and gather attention from the devs.

Those with few reports.. Well, even if they are cheating, if they have so few its not blatantly obvious, its also not blatantly bad for gameplay, or at least perception of gameplay.

who would wanted to take the time to review chases of grief

Grief does not need to be handled by humans. Its not a big enough deal, and grief points will take care of it anyway. The only thing that is necessary is making new players not deal team damage for the first 10 hours or so of playtime. This will make it a pain in the ass to switch to a new character to continue tking.

Oh, and not making grief go away while offline. You have to be playing, perhaps doing support activities or something, to make it go away. Or a stick with a nail and they have to run around sanc and pick up 10 pieces of litter for each grief point. :lol:

With these two simple things TKing will be an extremely minor problem.

[Rumblepit]

now you are rumor mongering,that guy is delicate,he is still posting in that F2P thread

players are just people, they hate ,they hold grudges, they cant be allowed to effect the outcome of anyone being banned.only the admins can.

its funny how you never have anything to add to any the threads you post in. you just follow xyntech with your head up his azz commenting on his post. lol troll

[Xyntech]

its funny how you never have anything to add to any the threads you post in. you just follow xyntech with your head up his azz commenting on his post. lol troll

Holy shit, :lol:

Oh god.

You...

Wow.

Never delete this thread either. These are now monuments to stupidity.

[SgtMAD]

its like a gift that keeps giving

[Bags]

RIOT also recently gave everyone $5 of currency for not getting sent to the tribunal.

[Traak]

I've noticed the launching into a shrieking swear-word laden diatribe is the standard way that some people in online forums try to bully their way to the top.

The gay activists have been using it for decades. When people mimic their methods, to me, they get dropped in a bin that says "probably gay" because they are acting just like them.

[Traak]

The US army launches into a shrieking profanity-laden diatribe to get its own way? I don't see the connection.

Isn't it you, Duke Nukem who said "I love the smell of bacon in the morning!"

I know it's not relevant, but it's a great quote.

[Effective]

So you tell me to shut the fuck up, yet say "it's a little complex (as you mentioned) in an open world mmo." with agreement.

So You agree with me and tell me to stfu.

I'm not trolling. but you sir, are an asshole, And Always have been.

Actually no, I agreed with skyexile, not you, only the first sentence was addressed at you.

You finally seem to have a vague understanding of the topic. BUT, not full understanding, you say "I will get drunk and swear a lot", so people would report you and you'd be a tribunal case file, enough people agree that you swearing is offensive and should be put before a GM. The thing is, even without it. YOU WOULD STILL BE PUT BEFORE A GM. This just speeds the process along by removing a lot of the bullshit reports. No abuse involved, just speeding up the process.

Also, I'm an asshole, what of it?

And you ask why Riot sends 5$ worth of riot points to players who haven't been banned (http://na.leagueoflegends.com/news/450-riot-points-awarded-nice-summoners).

They basicially awarded players who haven't been banned for trolling, feeding, and other forms of griefing 5$ for not being a griefer.

[SKYeXile]

You finally seem to have a vague understanding of the topic. BUT, not full understanding, you say "I will get drunk and swear a lot", so people would report you and you'd be a tribunal case file, enough people agree that you swearing is offensive and should be put before a GM. The thing is, even without it. YOU WOULD STILL BE PUT BEFORE A GM. This just speeds the process along by removing a lot of the bullshit reports. No abuse involved, just speeding up the process.


yea...i dont think he gets that part...or he somehow things the GM would go "oh no he was drunk, thats a get a of jail free card for been a cunt to other people, on your way son" ummm no...1 day ban.

[Xyntech]

This could have been such a nice thread. Y'all need to learn to put your personal bullshit aside and talk about the subject at hand a little more often.

Good lord.

[Trolltaxi]

This could have been such a nice thread. Y'all need to learn to put your personal bullshit aside and talk about the subject at hand a little more often.

Good lord.

QFT

Trolling, flaming and diverting topics are similar to griefing ingame. If you are the veteran playerbase that I so much rely on and I so often refer to when speaking about the game to my friends, what could I expect from the general asshat that you keep referring on?

We all hate hackers for executing the game when it got to the floor. I know dozens of players who (rage)quited the game because of them. On the other hand I have an outfitmate being accused of hacking and banned, and I'm 1000% sure he have never even thought of hacking. He was never shown the proofs from SOE's side.

Community voting is wrong, we could use it well, but others would abuse it. The OP's linked system could work. But Duke's idea about a process whitelist is way beyond reach of SOE. Just think about what would happen if google or FB or CNN.com or hellokitty.net would come up with this system! It is nonsense.

A blacklist of harmful codes + 24/7 GM presence + a well designed appeal system is the only way you can keep hackers low.

[Crator]

This could have been such a nice thread. Y'all need to learn to put your personal bullshit aside and talk about the subject at hand a little more often.

Good lord.

Not sure I'm following you... I still think it's a good thread. Where is this "personal bullshit" you speak of?

[Crator]

Duke, as long as the following rule is used I don't see where your concern lies. This is part of the LoL Tribunal system listed under "What evidence is The Tribunal provided with to judge the case?" section on this link LoL Tribunal Policy (http://na.leagueoflegends.com/legal/tribunal):

The Report Pages are assigned at random in The Tribunal – a Tribunal member cannot pick and choose which cases he or she wants to review. While there is a small chance that a Tribunal member might be assigned a Report Page for a user that he or she reported, no Tribunal member will be allowed to vote on a Report Page created for his or her own account.

[Kouza]

The best way to counter hacking is to have a GM on at all times, whose sole purpose is to find cheaters.

[Kouza]

I would like to point out in PS1 Typically if I reported some one, I relayed a name and why to my outfit... Thus Doing something based off of the number of reports might be exploited greatly.

Gotr could get any one banned :P

[SKYeXile]

I would like to point out in PS1 Typically if I reported some one, I relayed a name and why to my outfit... Thus Doing something based off of the number of reports might be exploited greatly.

Gotr could get any one banned :P

explain how, in full detail this differs from the current system.

[Kouza]

The current system bans people? O_

When did this start.

[SKYeXile]

This differs from the "current" system in means of the current planetside system that GOTR (which I am apart of but not very active).. If we complain enough as the most populated outfit, SOE will listen.

As it differs from the current method you propose, it doesn't.

no if you complain with enough BS appeals about one player for no reason, you will get action taken against your whole outfit.

Do you understand that you are assigned a limited number of appeals daily, you don't get to choose them, the likelihood of you been able to vote on an appeal is very low, and its pretty simply for them to make it so you cant vote on an appeal to do with an outfit member of yours, yet alone one thats on your server. If you want to make another max level character on another account, on another server just so you have a chance daily to vote on an appeal that may effect your outfit or empire then GL with that.

[Effective]

Let me describe it.

Player X is a douche bag and griefs people in a variety of ways, tking, etc.

Several players report/appeal him for his griefing behavior.

The Player X is put in the tribunal system.

Regular players may access the tribunal once they obtain a certain in-game level (usually max level).

Player X's file case is RANDOMLY assigned to players as they view/vote on these tribunals cases. The number of case files an individual player may view (which is still COMPLETELY RANDOM) is 10 cases which he may vote on.

If enough players agree that Player X should be punished by a GM, the case is forwarded to a GM, where upon the GM will make a FINAL JUDGEMENT on whether or not to ban/suspend/punish him.


Please describe to me how this system can be abused, because I don't see it. What is there not to understand? How is it even remotely similar to the current system?

[Kouza]

No, I guess I wrote it without clarification. If GOTR in it's entirety went to SOE, the invesitgation would be far more effective than just one or two "reports"

Edit: I'm confused. Didn't you initially say this?

Thats what I initially said the two posts don't contradict them selves.

The current system is flawed because sony has no effort put in it, and does not have GM`s online. I remember the first time I played I was griefing like a bitch.... I ACTUALLY GOT A TELL FROM AN ADMIN WARNING ME TO STOP. I never did it again...

If you have an admin on supervising, hacking will be slashed quickly...

The Tribunal System just seems like to much effort for something so silly.

The Current System is flawed because HONEY BADGER(sony) dont care.

[Chaff]

.
I LIKE PIE !
.

[Forsaken One]

Wow, its been over a month since I've signed in. This is just such a WTF topic that I had to sign in and make a post.

LoLs tribe, at least the way it was set up. Is one of the most BS things added to the game. Why? because its abused by the game type itself. People swear and rage in such a game. people have a ignore button in such a game. Venting rage in a easily counteractable way (the ignore button) shouldn't even be worth anyone else's time to deal with, nor should it be a bannable offense.

I do however support NON chat related tribe things. such as hacking.
Being a abusive griefer. (you wanna blow up the guy that stole your ride/won't get out of your ride? you should be allowed to. however you should not be allowed to just run around randomly greifing for lulz.)
Being a "unhelpable derp" (those players who somehow have the IQ to install games yet just mindlessly walk around and just acting like they are mentally challenged. more often then not also end up causing grief points do to running in front of peoples rides while not even meaning to be bad.), glitching, etc.

Planetside is built on a mature player base. We won't be racist or stuff like that but we should be able to tell someone "aww fuck you man" when sneaking but a enemy pulls a epic kill out of it and say things like "you have got to be fucking kidding me".

[Effective]

I've yet to meet anyone being banned for just swearing in LoL, generally if it's harassment/trolling, racism, that's a different story.

[EASyEightyEight]

Having a really hard time understanding how a tribunal system could be abused any more than an outfit just simply mass /reporting someone. I'm not a player of LoL, so I can see how Duke might not be fully understanding of the system.

From the sounds of it, it sounds like the system goes:

1- Enough people report X.

2-X goes under review by a tribunal of randomly selected individuals (preferably none of the /reporters)

3-Selected tribunal members are each given a different portion of the reports to review.

4-Selected tribunal members vote, based on their readings of the reports, on whether or not X gets sent to an official moderator for review. Preferably, they also compose a note with their reasoning for moderator review.

5-If deemed guilty, the moderator will review X, with access to logs that may or may not coincide with tribunal reports specifying why X is now under the scrutiny of a minion serving our gods.

Now, unless the WHOLE server is against this guy X, the most the pissed off outfit can do is send this schmuck to a randomly composed tribunal over and over again, and I'm willing to bet SOE will eventually pick up on this collective harassment. Same guy sent to trial by the same people umpteen times and found not guilty should raise a red flag.

This is just the gist of what I gathered on how LoL's system mostly works. I like this idea actually... provided I'm right about how it works :rofl:

[Forsaken One]

stuff

thats kinda in the way LoL bullshits its system works.

#1 They don't show the player the reason they were banned. This alone pretty much states a mod didn't even bother to look at the report.

#2 They don't provide the evidence used against the player. If a mod bothered to look over the reports they could at least copy and paste a few choice pieces as proof of the alleged action.

LoLs tribunal is little more then a court of stupid where the peers are 5 year olds and all the respectable laws of proof, defense, and allegations are thrown out the window.

I've yet to meet anyone being banned for just swearing in LoL, generally if it's harassment/trolling, racism, that's a different story.

you weren't there for the mass bans of even people saying poop then. Trolling should be allowed in chat. (again, ignore button if you deem it offensive.) and harassment should ONLY fall under trying to bypass the ignore button to keep talking to the player. Player A should not be warned/banned for player B being too retarded to know what the ignore button is.

[Traak]

Anything that pretends to assign anybody from the playerbase as being my peer is ludicrous.

Let the devs sort things out. And have a lot more devs. If some random is misbehaving, then a dev should be able to use his game-omniscient powers to trail around the player in question, and watch him.

Never mind having to kill 200 friendlies before he was banned. If he intentionally kills three in a row, in the base, or in spawns, or as some gay little vendetta, such as some twit did to me for killing an enemy plane pad, after our side had killed the vehicle pad, then he should be banned.

Killing unarmed friendlies should be an instant ban. Being a traitor should be instantly punished. It isn't fun, or cool, or funny. It is an indicator of mental disease, and should be punished immediately. You shouldn't have to just kill someone in an outfit to be banned. You should be banned for killing anyone intentionally when they are nowhere near an enemy. It would vastly improve the quality of the game if people knew they couldn't just gang up on someone and kill them because they don't like them.

Having last-minute-replay capability in the game would greatly assist this. Here I am, fixing a spawn tube, and some creep from one of your outfits comes and TK's me? That should be an instant ban, and forfeiture of all money in his Sony Station account. Why? Because it's wrong. It isn't right, it's wrong. And should be punished as a result. Cyber-bullying is not something that should have any place in PS2, like it does in PS1.

But trial by "peers'? LOLX1 million. Would not be reliably unbiased.

[SKYeXile]

My name is Traak, I don't cheat, and therefore, I approve this message.

Anything that pretends to assign anybody from the playerbase as being my peer is ludicrous.

Let the devs sort things out. And have a lot more devs. If some random is misbehaving, then a dev should be able to use his game-omniscient powers to trail around the player in question, and watch him.

Never mind having to kill 200 friendlies before he was banned. If he intentionally kills three in a row, in the base, or in spawns, or as some gay little vendetta, such as some twit did to me for killing an enemy plane pad, after our side had killed the vehicle pad, then he should be banned.

Killing unarmed friendlies should be an instant ban. Being a traitor should be instantly punished. It isn't fun, or cool, or funny. It is an indicator of mental disease, and should be punished immediately. You shouldn't have to just kill someone in an outfit to be banned. You should be banned for killing anyone intentionally when they are nowhere near an enemy. It would vastly improve the quality of the game if people knew they couldn't just gang up on someone and kill them because they don't like them.

But trial by "peers'? LOLX1 million. Someone playing this game doesn't make them my "peer". From what I've seen in this game, the people who inhabit this game are, for the most part, craven, cowardly traitors and cheaters. Peers? Hardly. I wouldn't trust them to judge a fight between two bacteria without bias.

so what is it?

[Effective]

you weren't there for the mass bans of even people saying poop then. Trolling should be allowed in chat. (again, ignore button if you deem it offensive.) and harassment should ONLY fall under trying to bypass the ignore button to keep talking to the player. Player A should not be warned/banned for player B being too retarded to know what the ignore button is.

I don't mind verbal trolls (it's when they deliberately fuck the game up that I start to mind), but when I find deliberate racism (someone not just trying to be funny) a bit out of taste, so I'm not going to raise a fuss about someone being banned for being a racist douche. Regardless of whether or not the ignore function is used.

I still play LoL, I curse occasional, I find trolling boring so don't bother, I have a friend who just verbally trolls, still hasn't been banned.

Moral of the story, I find that it's better to enforce not being a racist, or at the very least holding that opinion to yourself, ignore function or not..

[Traak]

How about after they start banning people for TKing unarmed friendlies, I mean ban them for killing ONE unarmed friendly in a friendly base, with no enemies anywhere near, and ban people for cheating.

Then, having done that, they can focus on other stuff.

[xSlideShow]

How about after they start banning people for TKing unarmed friendlies, I mean ban them for killing ONE unarmed friendly in a friendly base, with no enemies anywhere near, and ban people for cheating.

Then, having done that, they can focus on other stuff.

:lol:

[EASyEightyEight]

I'd rather the moderators not have to respond to every insignificant little squabble someone has with another on their team because they took a stray, killing round as a personal offense. To these people I say man the **** up.

[FriendlyFire]

Hi,
I make everything seem worse than it actually is or could be. I mean really, really, bad.

Sincerely,
FriendlyFire


I have no problems with Trial by Peers, because the decision is ultimately up to the GM/Devs and I have confidence in their decisions. I also realize that my Reports reflect not only my reputation but the reputation of my Gaming Community and Outfit.

[Raymac]

I'd rather the moderators not have to respond to every insignificant little squabble someone has with another on their team because they took a stray, killing round as a personal offense. To these people I say man the **** up.

But the GMs still need to do that under a /report system. Giving the players the power to police themselves creates an environment where people are less likely to rock the boat because in a way, Big Brother is always watching. Also it takes some of the tedious workload away from the GMs so they can focus on the important stuff.

Personally, I think this is a good idea because nothing is more frustrating than seeing a blatantly obvious troll or hack and not being able to do even the smallest thing about it.

[Effective]

GeneralVega, enough said

[johnflenaly]

So if I understand this right, you /report someone for hacking, asshatery, whatever, and he goes into the GMs queue to look at. If more people /report the same person, said player starts jumping up in priority in that queue? If that's the case, seems like a decent idea, its still up to he GM to decide what happens.

[LONGFELLA KOJ]

GeneralVega, enough said

This player created insurmountable problems that made trying to play the game as intended impossible. While I would love to have him and people like him punished, I think putting the enforcement of rules in the hands of the players is never a good idea.

I think a system where people appeal on their own is fine but have it actually spark an intervention by a SOE GM. What goes on now is a joke. There needs to be a better system to fact find and follow up on situations when a player is in question. SOE needs to have the game monitored. As a Free-to-play game, it's only gonna get 100X worse.

[Raymac]

This player created insurmountable problems that made trying to play the game as intended impossible. While I would love to have him and people like him punished, I think putting the enforcement of rules in the hands of the players is never a good idea.

I think a system where people appeal on their own is fine but have it actually spark an intervention by a SOE GM. What goes on now is a joke. There needs to be a better system to fact find and follow up on situations when a player is in question. SOE needs to have the game monitored. As a Free-to-play game, it's only gonna get 100X worse.

That's basically what LoL does now from what I understand. Player don't have the ability to ban anyone. They just help the GMs with some of the leg work and weeding out the non-issues.

[Forsaken One]

That's basically what LoL does now from what I understand. Player don't have the ability to ban anyone. They just help the GMs with some of the leg work and weeding out the non-issues.

no, LoL does not do that now.

People seem to misunderstand how LoL system really works by blindly reading what the dev.s say it does.

for the most part in LoL the tribe was put there because the Dev.s just didn't give a F anymore. Why do I say this?

Before the tribe a player used to get a email even before they were warned. it went something like this.

Dear so and so, your account will be under review do to multiple reports of
enter alleged action here
enter alleged action here
enter alleged action here
etc.

Should you be found guilty they would at least give you a little evidence and tell you which one or more you were found guilty of. If you asked a tech support they would give you full on reports etc.


now? its more like "Hi, the Tribe pushed punish, so fuck you, and no you aren't allowed to know what you were supposedly accused of"

If you call and ask tech support, you pretty much get a fuck you in bold with a side we "we don't give a shit"

[Effective]

no, LoL does not do that now.

People seem to misunderstand how LoL system really works by blindly reading what the dev.s say it does.

for the most part in LoL the tribe was put there because the Dev.s just didn't give a F anymore. Why do I say this?

Before the tribe a player used to get a email even before they were warned. it went something like this.

Dear so and so, your account will be under review do to multiple reports of
enter alleged action here
enter alleged action here
enter alleged action here
etc.

Should you be found guilty they would at least give you a little evidence and tell you which one or more you were found guilty of. If you asked a tech support they would give you full on reports etc.


now? its more like "Hi, the Tribe pushed punish, so fuck you, and no you aren't allowed to know what you were supposedly accused of"

If you call and ask tech support, you pretty much get a fuck you in bold with a side we "we don't give a shit"

It has worked fine for me.

[LongBow]

Like it or lothe it LoL, are industry leaders in the free to play model.

It must be said that, the "Trial" system is flawed - but, its core goal of improving the capacity of the moderation team has been a complete success!

Though I admit I would like appropriate feedback, in planet side there is a much greater grey area as to "intentional harm" - for example its easy to rack up plenty of complaints for crashing a galaxy into a vehicle term, but whether it was an accident ...

[Kouza]

Or Simple Solution... Have an Admin online... Who can spot the hacking himself.

[Traak]

Or Simple Solution... Have an Admin online... Who can spot the hacking himself.

Yeah, shouldn't be hard to "be" the offending player, and see his screen, when he reloads, how much damage he takes. Or better yet, face off against him and see IF he takes any damage.

Or better still, one dev for each. Wouldn't take long.

[SKYeXile]

I think most of you underestimate just how popular PS2 will be as a F2P game.

[Hamma]

I think most of you underestimate just how popular PS2 will be as a F2P game.

Naw it will be easy to have a an admin logged into the server all the time. :lol:

As I've said a thousand times, hacking and cheating is on the forefront of the devs minds as well as Smed's. I know this because I have talked to them face to face. They are focused on making a quality game and will do all they can to insure cheating does not go unpunished in the game.

It's impossible to completely stop cheating, it's also impossible to have enough GM's to watch everyone.

I for one am fairly confident they will get it right. But this isn't a perfect world like everyone thinks it is - there will be ways to bypass it but it will not be on the same scale as the original PlanetSide.

[Xyntech]

I think most of you underestimate just how popular PS2 will be as a F2P game.

I'm expecting 10x the numbers that PS1 had in it's prime, and hopefully I'm underestimating it by a long shot as well :D

I also expect it to retain high numbers for years to come.

[Talek Krell]

This would be a great system for a game with populations of the size that PS2 needs to have. The larger the population base the larger the number of potential participants, so it amplifies in measure with the number of complaints that will come in. The workload for the GMs would be significantly reduced, allowing them to spend more time and effort on each case and reducing the resources that have to be devoted to keeping swarms of admins on staff. The GMs also retain ultimate control, and could easily identify and appropriately punish cases of attempted abuse.

I only see two possible legitimate problems with it, one at the top and one at the bottom. If the GMs aren't reliable then of course the whole thing collapses. Given that this is true of every system it will have to be dealt with by SOE and they'll have to deal with it regardless. Participation of the playerbase, though, seems like a harder problem to solve. You can't just have a popup appear on somebody's screen while they're in the middle of a fight. How does LoL convince people to participate in this?

[Effective]

How does LoL convince people to participate in this?

You earn IP (in game money which can be used to buy characters and runes).
But you only earn it IF, everyone agrees on the same decision on a person (whether it be yes or no).

[SKYeXile]

You earn IP (in game money which can be used to buy characters and runes).
But you only earn it IF, everyone agrees on the same decision on a person (whether it be yes or no).

i think its you get the IP if you decided the same as the final outcome.

[Effective]

i think its you get the IP if you decided the same as the final outcome.

Close enough

[The Desert Fox]

Should I be expecting my PS2 Jury Duty Letter in the mail or email?

[Sifer2]

I don't play LoL so I don't understand how this Tribunal works. But it looks like the basic intent is to make the workload easier on GM's by letting them just sit there an ban people with lots of complaints on them. And it pays the players some currency for it?

My first question would be what's to stop the players just voting guilty to get paid? An second what's to stop just singling out someone your outfit doesn't like an showering them with complaints just to get them banned. Though the second wont be an issue if the GM is required to observe an record offending behavior before taking action. But in a free 2 play overrun with idiots an hackers that will be harder to take that time.

I also still wonder about punishment. In a F2P where you can just make new accounts when one is banned what is the real punishment? Sounds like Higby is trying to find a way to make it time consuming at least. Though this is far less effective than the good old hit them in the wallet where it hurts. I think options would be:

Require Credit Card to make account
Lots of IP,Hardware info gathered to try to keep the banned out
Don't be F2P or have Premium only areas/servers

Ideally all 3 IMO.

[Effective]

I don't play LoL so I don't understand how this Tribunal works. But it looks like the basic intent is to make the workload easier on GM's by letting them just sit there an ban people with lots of complaints on them. And it pays the players some currency for it?

My first question would be what's to stop the players just voting guilty to get paid? An second what's to stop just singling out someone your outfit doesn't like an showering them with complaints just to get them banned. Though the second wont be an issue if the GM is required to observe an record offending behavior before taking action. But in a free 2 play overrun with idiots an hackers that will be harder to take that time.

Here.

Let me describe it.

Player X is a douche bag and griefs people in a variety of ways, tking, etc.

Several players report/appeal him for his griefing behavior.

The Player X is put in the tribunal system.

Regular players may access the tribunal once they obtain a certain in-game level (usually max level).

Player X's file case is RANDOMLY assigned to players as they view/vote on these tribunals cases. The number of case files an individual player may view (which is still COMPLETELY RANDOM) is 10 cases which he may vote on.

If enough players agree that Player X should be punished by a GM, the case is forwarded to a GM, where upon the GM will make a FINAL JUDGEMENT on whether or not to ban/suspend/punish him.


The system isn't meant to deal with hackers. It's more along the lines of dealing with griefers. As it's easier to get that kind of information via various logs.

[Crator]

I don't play LoL so I don't understand how this Tribunal works. But it looks like the basic intent is to make the workload easier on GM's by letting them just sit there an ban people with lots of complaints on them. And it pays the players some currency for it?

My first question would be what's to stop the players just voting guilty to get paid? An second what's to stop just singling out someone your outfit doesn't like an showering them with complaints just to get them banned. Though the second wont be an issue if the GM is required to observe an record offending behavior before taking action. But in a free 2 play overrun with idiots an hackers that will be harder to take that time.

Simple, just read the rules... Here ya go: LoL Tribunal Rules (http://na.leagueoflegends.com/legal/tribunal)

How Does Voting Work?

Once a Tribunal member has reviewed the Report Page, he or she has an opportunity to vote to “pardon,” “punish” or “skip” the case. Each Report Page will be reviewed and voted on by at least twenty (20) different Tribunal members before any action is taken.

Your Tribunal Performance

Each member initially has the opportunity to vote on up to thirty (30) cases per day (this number is subject to change at any time in Riot Games’ sole and absolute discretion).

Your performance as a Tribunal member is automatically evaluated as you participate in The Tribunal and cast votes on the Report Pages that come before you. If your recommendation on a given report, whether it be to pardon or punish, matches the final verdict on the report, you will be notified by email and will receive a reward in the form of Influence Points (“IP”). If you frequently succeed at voting with the majority in The Tribunal, over time, you will also slowly be granted the capability of reviewing and voting on more Report Pages per day. If, however, you frequently and consistently vote against the majority, or otherwise disrupt or hinder The Tribunal process, you will have access to fewer and fewer Report Pages, and eventually your account may be temporarily or permanently banned from future participation in The Tribunal, at Riot Games’ sole discretion.

If you recently participated in The Tribunal and voted with the majority on at least one case, Riot Games will notify you via email of the amount of IP that was deposited to your Game account. If you do not wish to receive these email notifications, please do not participate in The Tribunal.

[Furret]

Duke you claim to understand that the 'tribunal' won't actually blacklist someone, but you still post with contradicting wording.

Perhaps you've said it yourself in a previous post, but I think you're very biased in this issue. You seem to be the type of player who gets drunk and griefs, and would therefore be likely put on trial for being an asshat, even if you only grief once every few nights.

I personally think this sort of 'tribunal' system would work. No power is actually being put in the hands of the players, except to pardon players. (When reviewing a case, they're given two options: Forward to GM, and Pardon player)

A few examples.

Case 1
Player X accidentally teamkills Player Y
Player Y reports player X for griefing because Player Y was on a 24 killstreak and needed one more kill for an achievement.
Tribunal receives report, and decides that Player Y was just annoyed that he'd been so close to a cool award, and had been killed by a friendly.
Player pardoned, one less case the GM's have to worry about.

Case 2
Player X teamkills Player Y.
Player Y decides to get revenge and spawn camps Player X three or four times, and the two teamkill each other on sight.
Tribunal receives case and is undecided, some blame Player X for the initial teamkill, some blame Player Y for going over the top with revenge, some blame both players because they're intentionally teamkilling each other and who the hell cares who started it.
Case gets forwarded to a GM.

Case 3
Player X gets a lot of kills from long distances with an inaccurate weapon and is reported by 500 members of outfit Y, who have been incited by Player Y in outfit Y who was recently fired from his job, got drunk, and is generally having a bad day.
Tribunal receives case and can't tell whether Player X is using hacks, or is lucky.
Case is forwarded to a GM.

I honestly don't see how that system can be abused, unless (in the third example) outfit X ends up with 15/20 members on the tribunal and pardons their own hacker.

But so what? Player X gets reported again a week later, and a different tribunal is selected, preferably excluding all members of previous tribunals for Player X.

Again, even if (in the first example) player X is reported by 500 members of outfit Y, and 20/20 members of the tribunal are from outfit Y, all they can do is forward the case to a GM, who will see what happened, and dismiss the case.


I think the main thing duke hasn't quite wrapped his head around is that the tribunal doesn't do ANYTHING, other than weed out the bullshit/butthurt/spam cases that the GM's don't need to be bothered with.

-------------------------------

Wrote this at 3 AM, so if I missed something point it out and I'll explain my reasoning.

[SKYeXile]

I think the main thing duke hasn't quite wrapped his head around is that the tribunal doesn't do ANYTHING, other than weed out the bullshit/butthurt/spam cases that the GM's don't need to be bothered with.

-------------------------------

Wrote this at 3 AM, so if I missed something point it out and I'll explain my reasoning.

Yes, you can read the entire thread, but in every one of his posts he does not seem to grasp it and some other for that matter, they seem to think than an outfit can mass appeal somebody and then force their hand in the tribural system by voting against a particular appeal...even though the appeals are assigned randomly.

The fail to think that they could do the same in planetsides current system(if they were read) whats to stop some butthurt OL leader getting hsi guild to mass report somebody now? nothing...all those appeals would go straight to a GM, at least with the tribunal system some of those appeals would get thrown out with no proper evidence.

[sylphaen]

TLDR summary:
Devs set the rules. We play by the rules.
Devs detect those who circumvent the rules and ban them.
We detect those who did not get detected and Devs ban them after human verification.

Human intervention is key at the action level since players will generally detect and report detrimental activity.

Annoying in-game behavior (i.e. stupidity in most cases) is kind of a gray area to me...


____________

Should I be expecting my PS2 Jury Duty Letter in the mail or email?

Kind of how I thought too.

I skimmed over the thread and I do not think any of you mentioned motivation/involvement level of the players. Nor the pace of action.

Just a few ideas I do not have time to structure properly:
- the game is fast and only a PS1-like grief system is reactive enough to punish "direct-griefers".
- in a game with thousands of players, only the players motivated enough to get someone else punished will expend give away time and exhaust energy to report someone else.
- the easier/faster it is to report someone, the more casual will reported issues be.
- in the event, of a player reported by many other players. What threshold is acceptable ? What about outfits who will have the power to use or abuse that process in a powerful way ?
- how long will it take for a group of players to validate a complaint and then have a GM reprocess it ?
- what about "very-indirect-griefers" ? GeneralVega was mentionned but how can you prove or judge that his incorrectly placed AMS on a bridge (which happened to be blocking the advance of all friendly troops trying to cross it because it was the most efficient ground-path to reach the next base) was griefing ? If it is proven to be, what about a friendly player who deploys an AMS at a non-optimal location and blocks the set-up of another AMS at a perceived better spot ?
- could tribunals generate vendettas/sour communities ?

While it's basically a pre-screening of the complaints/reports from players which I like, I am not too fond of that tribunal system.

One reason is that I fear it might justify that PS2 will need less GMs. I also hate the idea of players judging the behaviors of others through peer pressure.

Devs want to speed up gameplay and at worse, we may end-up with a system that:
- reports too easily (Do you want to punish player X ? yes/no)
- reports in a biased way (Explain your complaint: "this guy totally ...blablabla...")
- gets approved by the tribunal in most cases (players who reported someone already want that guy's neck; out of the thousands of players left, most of them will likely be clueless or acting with biased/incomplete information)
- gets GM swing the ban hammer too easily and too late (because investigations take time and 50 players cannot be wrong and there might not be time to reinvestigate so just ban or not)


Either way, the only positive item I see in the tribunal idea is pre-screening reports. This could simply be done by tracking complaints per player and getting a GM on their case after a certain threshold of abuses.

By classifying complaints, GMs could also choose to get on some cases faster (hacking vs. annoying behavior).


Overall, I still believe that the most important thing needed will be GMs.

Now there is a big difference between "direct-griefing" (i.e. abusing FF which can be dealt with the grief system) and "indirect-griefing" (i.e. passive aggressive behavior like GeneralVega's or racism/harrassment/pressure/etc...). Both should not be categorized together because they cannot be detected and taken care of in the same way.


I cant believe I always end up writing so much...
:cry: