No Rifles for the HA class???

[Erendil]

This post of mine was getting buried and forgotten in the Dedicated LMG's thread (http://www.planetside-universe.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38234) from a couple weeks ago. But Higby's comments in that thread (http://www.planetside-universe.com/forums/showpost.php?p=615742&postcount=34)got me concerned enough that I can't seem to get it out of my mind so I thought I'd start a new thread on it. Here's the part of his post that has me worried:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Higby

Right now Heavy Assault don't have any options for long range weapons (except for some of the AV stuff, of course), we want them up in the front lines taking hits and dishing out damage, not playing ghetto-sniper-hulk-hybrid. Although, depending on where we end up with HA weapon variants, theres a chance that we might end up with something like that, still playing around with it tbh.



Based on the above comments it sounds like the Heavy Assault class may not be able to use rifles, which means the role of the rifleman might get delegated to the light armour classes only.

I gotta say that I'm really not happy about this possibility. IMO HA's should get access to at least some form of long range AI weapon, and the most sensible option is also the most common infantry weapon in modern warfare: the assault rifle.


Say you're a Heavy using an AV weapon. You'll want to attack enemy vehicles from longer range since their big and heavy and as a softie you'll tend to go squish if you get too close to the nassssty vehicles. But if they're smart, the enemy vehicles will have infantry with them for support. So does this mean that said AV user won't be able to carry a rifle as a backup weapon so he can return fire on the enemy troops supporting the tank? Or will he have to resort to pulling out a pistol?

This would make me an extremely sad panda since in PS1 I've usually played the role of the second-line fire-support soldier, using AV to ward off vehicles and then switching to ESMA to provide covering fire for my HA comrades on the front line and take potshots at enemy front-line soldiers when I can. Is the MA/AV loadout not going to be an option in PS2?

I really really hope that it still is since it's the loadout I've used for 90% of my PS1 career. It gives me the ability to engage a wide variety of targets at range at the expense of sacrificing a bit of AI power up close since I'm not carrying HA. So it's versatile, but not all-powerful, and I do make compromises in AI power when using it.



EDIT: I just want to add that the rifle (and the musket before it) has been the mainstay infantry weapon for soldiers for the last 500-600 years. If I understand Higby correctly, it sounds like they'll be denying the HA class access to this weapon type.

If so, I'm asking the Devs that they please reconsider this decision and let the HA class use rifles since it is so central to modern warfare, and it feels counter-intuitive for one of the best-armed infantry classes to be denied use of such a omnipresent weapon.


So what do you guys think? Should the HA class be allowed to use rifles? Along similar lines, should the HA class be allowed to carry two rifle-sized weapons at all?

[FIREk]

I'm pretty sure that Higby only meant that they won't have sniper rifles / marksman rifles. I think we can assume that assault rifles are medium-range weapons.

That being said, the anti-infantry HA class will definitely be limited to HA weapons - the Jackhammer, MCG and Lasher, and maybe others.

The anti-vehicle HA class will likely carry a missile launcher (or other AV weapon) plus an assault rifle or shotgun. Or perhaps only a carbine/shotgun.

[Atuday]

This worries me and I would like some clarification from higgs. The thought of not having a mid/long range attack power for a heavy seems silly. Their disadvantage is being slow. Not having any range makes it so they would only ever be effective in bases or VS tanks. The thought of having some form of really inaccurate MCG that still had range would balance this out.

[Erendil]

I'm pretty sure that Higby only meant that they won't have sniper rifles / marksman rifles. I think we can assume that assault rifles are medium-range weapons.

That being said, the anti-infantry HA class will definitely be limited to HA weapons - the Jackhammer, MCG and Lasher, and maybe others.

The anti-vehicle HA class will likely carry a missile launcher (or other AV weapon) plus an assault rifle or shotgun. Or perhaps only a carbine/shotgun.


I sure hope you're right. Not giving heavy infantry access to assault rifles just sounds so bass-ackwards....

[Traak]

Hasn't every HA we've seen so far been equipped with an assault rifle or pistol, with the exception of the one blurry shot of the MCG from first-person perspective?

It sounds like they have an inverse relationship between striking distance and armor. Further you can strike from (except AV) the less armor you have, at least in the non-MAX classes.

[Zulthus]

I have to say, from what I've heard THUS FAR, I'm really not sure I like the way they're taking the class system. I think they're restricting classes way too much. The freeform inventory in PS1 was perfect. Players should get to choose what armor they want to use with whatever weapons they want, and have the ability to stock their inventory to their liking. It feels like they're trying to go the Battlefield route, with these specific classes, squad spawning, etc. I truly wish they'd stay true to how the core game worked the first time around. Games these days are all the same. It's not that I'm afraid of change, it's the fact that 98% of games have the same exact shit. Choose your weapon, put an attachment, here's everything else done for you. I heard them say something about making it more accessible to the player, but the truth is, to 99% of people that play a game like this, making your own inventory is no challenge at all. As for EVERYONE, it took 5 minutes of getting used to, and we all had fun with it. But I don't like that they're making AV, HA, etc SPECIFIC classes. Like I said, you should be able to put HA and AV in the same loadout. Jumpjet troops should be able to use sniper rifles.

I am LOVING everything else about the new game so far though. I like that aircraft won't be flying cameras, I like that the new bases are much more massive, I like that we'll be fighting in all areas of the continent. The graphics look amazing and the art direction for all three factions is perfect. The only thing that has truly been bugging me since the start is their take on classes.

But, this is all probably false on my part, and as we say, we'll have to wait until Beta to find out how it really works...


I don't know if any of that made any sense, but it's late and I'm fucking tired.

[Erendil]

Hasn't every HA we've seen so far been equipped with an assault rifle or pistol, with the exception of the one blurry shot of the MCG from first-person perspective?

It sounds like they have an inverse relationship between striking distance and armor. Further you can strike from (except AV) the less armor you have, at least in the non-MAX classes.


The only HA I recall ever seeing is this TR carrying a Striker (http://www.planetside-universe.com/media/viewer.php?img_id=1686). All the other screenies have shown light class/Agile varients AFAI can tell.

Something else that gives me pause... None of the screenies we've seen have shown anybody carrying more than one weapon. Not even a rifle + sidearm.


I have to say, from what I've heard THUS FAR, I'm really not sure I like the way they're taking the class system. I think they're restricting classes way too much. The freeform inventory in PS1 was perfect. Players should get to choose what armor they want to use with whatever weapons they want, and have the ability to stock their inventory to their liking. It feels like they're trying to go the Battlefield route, with these specific classes, squad spawning, etc. I truly wish they'd stay true to how the core game worked the first time around. Games these days are all the same. It's not that I'm afraid of change, it's the fact that 98% of games have the same exact shit. Choose your weapon, put an attachment, here's everything else done for you. I heard them say something about making it more accessible to the player, but the truth is, to 99% of people that play a game like this, making your own inventory is no challenge at all. As for EVERYONE, it took 5 minutes of getting used to, and we all had fun with it. But I don't like that they're making AV, HA, etc SPECIFIC classes. Like I said, you should be able to put HA and AV in the same loadout. Jumpjet troops should be able to use sniper rifles.

I am LOVING everything else about the new game so far though. I like that aircraft won't be flying cameras, I like that the new bases are much more massive, I like that we'll be fighting in all areas of the continent. The graphics look amazing and the art direction for all three factions is perfect. The only thing that has truly been bugging me since the start is their take on classes.

But, this is all probably false on my part, and as we say, we'll have to wait until Beta to find out how it really works...


I don't know if any of that made any sense, but it's late and I'm fucking tired.


No, I hear ya. The vast majority of changes and additions they're making to PS2 I absolutely love. However, in regards to the class system, a lot of us are concerned that they might make them a little too restrictive. I'm afraid that they might be using it to force too much reliance on your teammates in order too succeed and hide it under the guise of "teamwork."

I mean, they did have a point. The HA/AV/Adv Med/Assault Engie/Expert Hacker/CR5 template that 95% of the PS1 playerbase turned into was too versatile. but I get the distinct impression that they're taking things too far in the other direction, making everybody too specialized.

Obviously we don't know even a tiny fraction of the certs/capaibilities that are being added to the game for infantry. But the proverbial examples of "too versatile" that have be light-heartedly given (Medics with Rocket launchers, Jump troops w/ HA, cloakers who rez) I have no issues with whatsoever and don't seem them at all OP'd. Quite frankly given what we know now I can't think of a 2 or 3 cert combo that I'd find OP'd at all. At least not anything that couldn't be solved by armour restrictions (like no cloaking HA for example)

[SKYeXile]

Yea he said long range weapons, i would have never considered MA long range, but iv been wrong in the past. i think what firek is saying is correct. I have tried to track down where its written but im very sure higby said that heavy assault AI is limited to AI only while the AV or SA users would also get a less powerful AI weapon.

[CrystalViolet]

IDK, this choice makes perfect sense to me for balance reasons given the faster TTK. If you go into PS2 thinking you're going to play the game in the exact same way you played PS1, I think you are just setting yourself up for disapointment. There will be many ways to play the game.

[NCLynx]

Personally I think every empire should get something with the range of the gauss and the power of a jackhammer triple shot in every bullet. No damage degradation, no bullet drop.

I'm find with HA not having something that's good at super long range.

[Raymac]

HA in PS1 wasn't long range. I don't see the problem.

[Zulthus]

HA in PS1 wasn't long range. I don't see the problem.

All you gotta do is read. He's talking about the HA class using rifles. It's in the title.

[Erendil]

Yea he said long range weapons, i would have never considered MA long range, but iv been wrong in the past. i think what firek is saying is correct. I have tried to track down where its written but im very sure higby said that heavy assault AI is limited to AI only while the AV or SA users would also get a less powerful AI weapon.

Yeah, "long range" is a very vague term. I personally consider assault rifles to be "long range." In the Army I was trained to hit a man-sized target at 400m with an M16A2, and its offical max effective range is 550m.. Since the Devs are emphasizing more "realism" in PS2 it's possible that the most accurate varient of MA (an MA long-rifle) could hit targets out that far. If so, I'd consider that long range.

However the stock MA rifle models in PS2 seem to be closer to the M4A1 in barrel length and overall size, in which case 300-350m is closer to the max effective range officially it's 500m). That'd be closer to medium range.


All you gotta do is read. He's talking about the HA class using rifles. It's in the title.


Exactly. Or, to put it into PS1 terms, I want to know if 1) someone wearing Rexo is able to carry one "specialized" weapon (Thumper/HA/AV) and still carry a rifle as a backup, 2) if Rexo's can carry 2 rifle-sized weapons at the same time at all (like MA+AV), and 3) if Rexo's can carry rifles at all.

I suppose hand-in-hand with that would be to ask if any class beside that which we call "Heavy Assault" is able to wear Rexo...

[LongBow]

I have to admit the notion does intrigue me and in honesty, I'm not totally against HA being unable to use assault rifles.

such would have to come at the expense of a better defined and better optimised HA class.
Another factor to consider is that LA are going to be more limited in the "offensive" use of their jump pack because at closer ranges we know a HA player is going to tear them to shreds! so is the LA just a sniper?



however at the end of the day, Higby was directly addressing the "hulk sniper" (I like that ;P)and I do hope that the days of HA having access to "sniper range" weapons are a thing of the past.

whether this applies to the "medium range" assault rifle I doubt it ... though limited access to modules like "extended barrel" is a real possibly and an option I hope the devs consider.

[SKYeXile]

Exactly. Or, to put it into PS1 terms, I want to know if 1) someone wearing Rexo is able to carry one "specialized" weapon (Thumper/HA/AV) and still carry a rifle as a backup, 2) if Rexo's can carry 2 rifle-sized weapons at the same time at all (like MA+AV), and 3) if Rexo's can carry rifles at all.

I suppose hand-in-hand with that would be to ask if any class beside that which we call "Heavy Assault" is able to wear Rexo...

I'm positive higby said that AV and SA rexo users would be able to use a rifle, but not a heavy weapon.

This games classes are sounding alot like global agenda and going down the typical MMO archtype lines:

Cloakers as infiltrators and snipers.
Medics armed with carbines and small arms
assault heavy armoured and armed with AV and close range AI steaming weapons.
and the engineer laying deployable's.

for the love of god dont turn this into a homo holy trinity shooter where dudes run around with medic beams jammed up their ass.

and if you do...Please head to future-crew.net and apply to be a dedicated SKYeXile pocket healer.

[CutterJohn]

Players should get to choose what armor they want to use with whatever weapons they want

I agree that cloakers should have HA. :lol:


What you forget is that PS pretty much had only 2 infantry 'classes'. Cloakers, and everything else. Nobody used standard, and and rexo was a direct upgrade to agile, with the only downside being a very minor run speed penalty.

So. One class had large restrictions on what was used. The other had none. So 50% of the 'classes' in PS were restricted in what they can use. You should be used to the idea by now.

[Zulthus]

Not even close.

In PS1 you could use whatever fit in the slots you had. The approach they're taking now is that only the HA class can use the heavy weapons/AV, only infilitrator can use the sniper rifle, etc. Obviously you couldn't fit a Lasher in the cloaker's pocket slot. Those were the only restrictions to be had in the game. Often enough I find myself using Agile simply because I can outmaneuver opponents using Rexo. It's all a matter of choice. With that agile armor, I could hold AV, sniper, HA, MA, SA, EA, grenades, medpacks, ACEs, and whatever the hell else there was.

Now, in PS2, they're doing BF3-esque classes. You can choose to be either, say, Engineer, Heavy Assault, Infiltrator, Medium Assault, Light Assault, or whatever their classes are called. They all have a preset weapon restriction on the class. The Light Assault class with the jumpjets can't use heavy assault weapons or anti-vehicle weapons. All they can use is a carbine/pistol combination. The only class that can wear rexo with heavy assault weapons is the Heavy Assault class.

It's a totally different system entirely.

[CutterJohn]

Oh. So you'd be fine with it if the slots were just different sized then? Because I can design a slot system that performs exactly the same and just make the weapons different sizes and shapes.

It is exactly the same though.. Saying otherwise is disingenuous. There is absolutely no reason that a cloaker couldn't carry something other than a pistol. 100% completely arbitrary. Just as the completely arbitrary restrictions that kept max units from welding a REK or repair tool to their arm. The only argument that can support these restrictions is they were good for gameplay.


Sure, they could have gone a different route. I personally would have loved a freeform system wherein what you equipped was detrimental to your performance. HA could of course carry a med app, but it wouldn't have the same capabilities as a medic which has the diagnostic systems. A jump troop could carry AV, but of course AV is heavy, so that cut down their jump ability and movement speed. Cloakers could carry HA, but of course a foreign object that large is going to disrupt the cloaking mechanism mighty badly.

I can understand their choice though. It makes balance far easier. Even something as simple as pistols.. Remember those in PS1? Only cloakers used them, because they sucked, because they were balanced for cloakers. A proper backup weapon that cloakers could not use would have been excellent. Instead pistol slots were nearly 100% used for the various tools or grenades.


It also tickles my funny bone that people constantly complain about vehicles being too multi role, and then complain that infantry won't be multirole enough.. :D

[PoorFate]

It makes more sense to me that he was referring to sniper rifles, especially with the "sniper/hulk hybrid" comment in the same quote.

[XPquant]

You all act like you have never played planetside before. There was no such thing as a medium infantry, everyone used rexo to assault. They are taking away inventories because people are lame, you will still able to tweak things to stretch roles. Defined unit classes and roles is a dream to any real commander.


Why don't you play the game before you freak out.

[SKYeXile]

Not even close.

In PS1 you could use whatever fit in the slots you had. The approach they're taking now is that only the HA class can use the heavy weapons/AV, only infilitrator can use the sniper rifle, etc. Obviously you couldn't fit a Lasher in the cloaker's pocket slot. Those were the only restrictions to be had in the game. Often enough I find myself using Agile simply because I can outmaneuver opponents using Rexo. It's all a matter of choice. With that agile armor, I could hold AV, sniper, HA, MA, SA, EA, grenades, medpacks, ACEs, and whatever the hell else there was.

Now, in PS2, they're doing BF3-esque classes. You can choose to be either, say, Engineer, Heavy Assault, Infiltrator, Medium Assault, Light Assault, or whatever their classes are called. They all have a preset weapon restriction on the class. The Light Assault class with the jumpjets can't use heavy assault weapons or anti-vehicle weapons. All they can use is a carbine/pistol combination. The only class that can wear rexo with heavy assault weapons is the Heavy Assault class.

It's a totally different system entirely.

it would be nice if they did the same with PS2 but have the slots abit more smart perhaps.

Assault:
1 primary Heavy weapons slot(AV/HA/SA)
1 MA slot(WOULD BECOME UNAVALIBLE IF SLOTTED AI)
2 Pistol.
3 grenade

Recon:
1 pistol
1 Sniper only rifle/pistol
1 Grenade


Medic:
1 Medic rifle tool
2 pistol
1 Rifle
1 Grenade
1 Deployable...no idea what, but something gay and medic related.

Light assault:
1 rifle/sniper
2 Pistol
3 Grenade
1 Special (Jump jets)

Engineer:
1 rifle/sniper
2 pistol
2 Grenade
10 Deployable
1 Engineer rifle / AV slot

i forget the other class, max? whatever, nobody cares. , anyway, something to that effect.

[Erendil]

Actually Sky, preventing the "game-breaking/OP'd" combos Higby keeps talking about by using role-specific armour types like you suggest (medic, Engie, Rexo that has only 1 3x9 sized slot, etc) has always been the route I had hoped they would take rather than amore arbitrary and restrictive class system like they decided to go with.

Too bad they didn't go in that direction..

I'm positive higby said that AV and SA rexo users would be able to use a rifle, but not a heavy weapon.

IDK, dude. I've been specifically looking for someone at SOE to clarify this ever since Fan Faire when I heard about the class system and the disappearance of the freeform inventory and I don't recall them ever expounding on the subject.

My immediate concern back then was whether or not any one person out in the field would be able to carry both an AI and AV weapon in their loadouts to deal with the large variety of enemy unit types that would be on the battlefield.

If we couldn't that would've been a major blow to the effectiveness of infantry since this is a combined arms game and both vehicles and MAXes have been confirmed as having that ability. But I don't recall them ever explicitly saying you could even carry 2 rifle-sized weapons at the same time at all as a sofite, much less MA + something else.

I did find this quote (http://www.planetside-universe.com/forums/showthread.php?p=603237#post603237) where he says:

Yes, most of the classes are setup that way, can spec in a couple really diverse roles but they're making trade offs... so if you want an MCG (yes, there is an mcg) you wouldn't packing any AV equip.


But that just says what you can't do, which in this case is HA/AV. There have been a few ppl on these forums who've assumed that means you could use MA/AV. But I've never actually seen a Dev come out and say it.

It also doesn't specifically state why you can't use HA/AV. Is it because they don't want the best AI and best AV in the same loadout? Or is it simply because you can't carry 2 rifle-sized weapons at the same time?

[Zulthus]

Sure, they could have gone a different route. I personally would have loved a freeform system wherein what you equipped was detrimental to your performance. HA could of course carry a med app, but it wouldn't have the same capabilities as a medic which has the diagnostic systems. A jump troop could carry AV, but of course AV is heavy, so that cut down their jump ability and movement speed. Cloakers could carry HA, but of course a foreign object that large is going to disrupt the cloaking mechanism mighty badly.

That's all I'm saying. "Classes" should be able to carry whatever they want, even if they decide to make specific items have a certain drawback when used with one class compared to the other. If it restricts you to a window that allows you to choose one main weapon, one pistol, grenade type, etc, then it's too restrictive in my opinion. You should be able to carry three Jackhammers, no matter how pointless it is. Even cloakers carrying HA is fine, as long as it fills up their free inventory space and their drawback is a shitty cloak field.



I'll leave it at that, that's my opinion :p


You all act like you have never played planetside before. There was no such thing as a medium infantry, everyone used rexo to assault. They are taking away inventories because people are lame, you will still able to tweak things to stretch roles. Defined unit classes and roles is a dream to any real commander.

Why is it that "people are lame"? They said they're taking away inventories to increase player accessibility. The way I see it, I should be able to choose between what armor I want and still being able to use the same guns that a heavier class would be using. A person wearing Rexo should be able to use a suppressor if he wanted to.

[Traak]

By the way, the "jump jets" are called "lateral leap accelerators" or LLA's. They give no indication that they will give you any vertical leap augmentation.

[acosmo]

oh god i sure do hope HA AV can carry MA

[Xaine]

I believe that HA will be based around the Rexo, where as LA will be based around the agile.

The Rexo has two long-holsters, where as the agile only has one.

I think that the HA will get access to things like the thumper, as well as rifles and the heavy weapons - so they'll have something to chose between.

I very much doubt they'll be limited to just one weapon.

[CuddlyChud]

I dunno one way or another what Heavies will have, but it seems like a lot of people just want rexoside back. From what I understand, the HA weapon class set has expanded to not only include the old guns like jackhammer, mcg, and lasher, but also new guns from what i understand (like LMGs). If the heavies don't get MA, i'm sure it'll be because the Devs don't want the kind of overlap PS1 had, where 99% of the population just goes heavy all the time since it can do everything light assault can do, but better. Each class should play somewhat differently.

[Marth Koopa]

If I can't use my Pulsar/Lancer combo I'm going to be pissed the hell off and I'm just going to stick to PlanetSide 1.

[SKYeXile]

If I can't use my Pulsar/Lancer combo I'm going to be pissed the hell off and I'm just going to stick to PlanetSide 1.

if they up the AI damage, it maybe okay.

[TheBladeRoden]

I think everyone should just have one x*y sized backpack where they can put whatever they want in. Rexo's would have the biggest backpack, but a slower base speed. And the more junk you put in it, the slower still you move. Then it would be a case of "Want to carry two heavy weapons? Fine, but good luck managing with a lot less ammo/health kits/etc." Then it would be up to the devs to examine the core reason why certain combos would be overpowered, and balancing it with others, instead of just denying it.

[CutterJohn]

oh god i sure do hope HA AV can carry MA

I don't see any reason to doubt they will. I've never seen an AV class in any game that didn't also have some sort of non pistol secondary weapon.

[BlazingSun]

I hope this is just a misunderstanding. The way I see it, the Reenforced Exo Suit is (or should be) the armor of choice for the mainstay of the combat Infantry. Therefore a Rexo user should have access to HA, AV and MA guns.

Besides .. I don't really like the look of the Light Assault class so far. It could do with more armor, while still keeping a "slim" appearance.

[CuddlyChud]

Maybe its a mistake to liken heavies to rexo and light assault to agile. It could be that your not supposed to play as a heavy all the time. I think they mentioned that heavies couldn't drive any vehicles. I think its a mistake to say: Heavies in planetside 2 will be like rexos without MA in planetside 1; They could be completely different concepts that we just don't understand atm.

[Redshift]

i'd just be worried that we'll have to play light outside and heavy inside, i did mention that whilst talking to higby about this in the original thread, what he said didn't make me any more comfortable with the idea :P

[CutterJohn]

i'd just be worried that we'll have to play light outside and heavy inside, i did mention that whilst talking to higby about this in the original thread, what he said didn't make me any more comfortable with the idea :P

Yeah, it sucks that I won't be able to bring my tank inside too.

Btw.. What class has AV again?

[Coreldan]

It could make sense that it would be an engineer, but I have a feeling that any class with the heavy assault loadout could be able to select AV?

[LongBow]

Load outs are interesting but at a guess I would suggest that the engineer is going to be the "driver" class as they are the most likely to want to repair a vehicle.

if this is the case the armour would need to be a light armour variant. As such I guess that the engineer will be standard armour however they will also have access to a "nanite pool" that they could use for repairs or constructing objects ...

the medic is likely to be a more heavily armoured variant of the engineer above only now their resource allows healing /reviving.

[Talek Krell]

The way I see it, the Reenforced Exo Suit is (or should be) the armor of choice for the mainstay of the combat Infantry. Well, maybe the devs feel like it makes more sense for the "agile" suited riflemen to make up the backbone instead of having a military composed primarily of rocket launcher toting assault troops.

Personally, I don't see why it's such an intolerable travesty that the class with the heaviest armor and the heaviest weapons doesn't get to carry a backup weapon that is equivalent to everyone else's primary weapon. Pistols can be useful now, right? If a light assault somehow works his way past the infantry that you're backing up, kill him with one of those.

Higby may have simply meant that HA doesn't get sniper rifles, but if he was saying they only have pistols or carbines as backup weapons, then I see no problem with that either.

[Coreldan]

I'm fairly sure that what was meant indeed was the lack of snipers. Not the lack of basic rifles per se. But we will see. I'd figure Higby will comment here once he notices the thread after holidays.

[EASyEightyEight]

I'm figuring Shock Troopers will be able to equip medium sized weaponry, along with either a heavy assault weapon (an MCG could potentially be modified into essentially being an LMG) or some anti-armor weaponry.

Heavy Assault
1 - Large
1 - Medium
1 - Small
1 - Grenades.

Engi/Medic:
1 - Medium
1 - Small
1 - Deployables/Grenades
1 - Unique tool

Light Assault:
1 - Medium
1 - Small
1 - Grenades
1 - Jetpack

Infiltration:
1 - Sniper*
1 - Small
1 - Tools(?)

*With modifications towards being a sniper.

I expect all of the classes to have some form of "hacking" as a default now, and not an opted for equipment choice.

Just to add, I feel "medium" includes basic assault rifles, shotguns, and maybe launchers. Launchers could fall into heavy, depending on how SOE wants to balance the game. After all, we may be able to turn our standard issue handguns into revolvers or SMG's. A thumper as a primary weapon for a light armor trooper with an inaccurate SMG for a back up should be a player choice in my opinion. I don't think denying everyone but the Shock Troops anti-vehicle capabilities is SOE's plan, but making Shock Troopers and engineers much more adept at screwing over enemy armor may be.

[Lonehunter]

"Right now Heavy Assault don't have any options for long range weapons "
I just don't see anything about rifles in there.

You're assuming Long Range is only done with a Rifle, and assuming Rifles are only for Long Range.

[Erendil]

"Right now Heavy Assault don't have any options for long range weapons "
I just don't see anything about rifles in there.

You're assuming Long Range is only done with a Rifle, and assuming Rifles are only for Long Range.

No, and no. I'm not assuming anything. I'm asking for clarification, and if the Devs have decided to deny the HA class access to assault rifles, I'm asking them to reconsider that decision.

Obviously, I realize other weapons like sniper rifles have long range capability. He even uses the word "sniper" in the same sentence you quoted. I also realize Rifles can be used in CQC and medium range since 90% of the time I've been a grunt in PS1 I've used a rifle, which naturally has included a lot of CQC fighting indoors.

However, he did say they currently don't have ANY options for long range. The key word here is "any." Given the Devs continued stress on bringing more realism to PS2, I think it's likely that MA rifles would be able to be used at long range. So a logical conclusion to this could mean that MA rifles would be included in his statement and thus wouldn't be usable by the HA class.

Of course, this also depends on what he meant by "long" range. For me, I'd consider anything past about 100-150m to be long range for infantry weapons from a gameplay perspective. If so, then even PS1 MA rifles would fall into that category.

In the end tho, he didn't post a respond the first time I asked about this in the LMG thread. So hopefully he'll comment on it here. :D

[Raymac]

All you gotta do is read. He's talking about the HA class using rifles. It's in the title.

Don't be a douche. I can read just like you can.

HA class will have heavy armor and carry HA weapons. Light assault will not be able to carry HA weapons. So, Light Assault will likely be better at longer range and HA will likely be better at shorter range. Much like MA and HA in PS1.

That's all I was saying, dude. So turn the douche-ometer down a couple notches please.

[EASyEightyEight]

The reason I don't doubt the Shock troopers can wield a standard issue rifle is because I feel SOE doesn't want them to be the indoor heavy assault guys, but the alternative "DPS" class to the Hell Jumpers - our light assault jetpack class - and not strictly an anti-vehicle/CQC elite. I'd rather strap on a MAX suit if the latter were the case, then I can have both AI and AV in one set up, and be even tougher to kill. What can the Shock trooper do over the max suit then? Hack?

Heavy Assault needs the versatility to justify being the the slow, armored guy whom, when brought under fire, his only real option is to shoot back.

[SKYeXile]

The reason I don't doubt the Shock troopers can wield a standard issue rifle is because I feel SOE doesn't want them to be the indoor heavy assault guys, but the alternative "DPS" class to the Hell Jumpers - our light assault jetpack class - and not strictly an anti-vehicle/CQC elite. I'd rather strap on a MAX suit if the latter were the case, then I can have both AI and AV in one set up, and be even tougher to kill. What can the Shock trooper do over the max suit then? Hack?

Heavy Assault needs the versatility to justify being the the slow, armored guy whom, when brought under fire, his only real option is to shoot back.

you make good points, sad day when the max is the most versitle thing on the battlefield. since we will have regenerating armour now apparently and the possibility of each not having medic and no points in hacking...so yea...what's the point of regular infantry?

[Lonehunter]

Just keep in mind we want more teamwork, and less one man armies. If Heavy Assault can take on CQC, AV, and long range infantry, will SOE think that's too many combat roles? I'd honestly like more "rock, paper, scissors" gameplay balance.

I'm really too tired to type out details right now. But basically, to fill every combat role I would rather it take a squad of 6 then 3.

[Arrow]

Just keep in mind we want more teamwork, and less one man armies. If Heavy Assault can take on CQC, AV, and long range infantry, will SOE think that's too many combat roles? I'd honestly like more "rock, paper, scissors" gameplay balance.

I'm really too tired to type out details right now. But basically, to fill every combat role I would rather it take a squad of 6 then 3.

FPS should never be rock paper scissors in my opinion. It should be about skill and the user, im kind of frustrated with this class system to be honest.

[EASyEightyEight]

Just keep in mind we want more teamwork, and less one man armies. If Heavy Assault can take on CQC, AV, and long range infantry, will SOE think that's too many combat roles? I'd honestly like more "rock, paper, scissors" gameplay balance.

I'm really too tired to type out details right now. But basically, to fill every combat role I would rather it take a squad of 6 then 3.

They couldn't last in a fight indefinitely. They'd still rely on medics to patch up whatever the shield doesn't absorb, and need ammo resupply. Further, with only one heavy weapon at a time, they'd be packing a large gun, and a medium gun, and probably a side arm as well.

Coincidentally, that's why I think they'll combine the thumper and rocklet rifle into a single weapon (modifications adjust how the ammo acts) and work it into the medium sized weaponry slot along side a shotgun and rifle. It would serve as a poor man's AV, but it would be better than wasting bullets.

I imagine the heavy assault class to be the commandos, spartans, shock troops, what-have-you of the Imperial armed forces. They don't fulfill any special role besides "kill, kill, kill!" They don't have jetpacks for easy means of escape, breaching, or perching vantage point. They don't have medical capabilities to stay in the fight after suffering damage, and they don't have any method of repairing or even driving armor or aircraft. Probably can't even plant explosives either.

The heavily armored shock troopers get into the thick of a fight, and they better, with some properly planned load outs, be able to adjust to any fighting situation at least somewhat. Obviously, the heavy will excel, the medium well enough, and the side arm is much more a last resort. I wouldn't be surprised if the handgun could be modified into a single shot grenade launcher, allowing for the trooper to pack a rifle and a CQC AI weapon in the other two slots to cover for the other 2 possible situations.

The MAX suits already offer some versatility in allowing for two different weapons systems at one time - each possibly more effective at their role than anything a foot mobile has access to - and more than likely, they're also packing on far better armor than our shock troopers could ever hope to. About the only weaknesses said trooper can afford is that they're squishier, but they're far more versatile at any one time (again, if equipped intelligently.)

They should still rely on the support troops to keep them pushing forward however.

*EDIT: Regarding my thumper comment. I understand that it doesn't seem to be SOE's intention to allow medics, jump troopers, and possibly engineers rocket launchers, but do keep in mind for packing a thumper, they will likely have to give up their primary means of engaging enemy infantry, the assault rifle. I also don't expect a grenade launcher/rocklet rifle to be all that effective against faster moving targets. They'd probably be good against MAX units and nearby enemy armor if one has an advantageous position over them as well as softening up groups of hostiles. I can't imagine they'll have much use against aircraft however.

[SKYeXile]

Just keep in mind we want more teamwork, and less one man armies. If Heavy Assault can take on CQC, AV, and long range infantry, will SOE think that's too many combat roles? I'd honestly like more "rock, paper, scissors" gameplay balance.

I'm really too tired to type out details right now. But basically, to fill every combat role I would rather it take a squad of 6 then 3.

Yea this is an FPS, it should be about skill, not oh well...AI max is hard counter to infantry...ill just bendover now. Sure there is situational things like having the right gun for the right terrain etc. But MMOs in particular like to get into this whole holy trinity of class balance, which is very tired and stale and really not appealing to most people who play games, because they play solo and casual. The game should be designed so its more effective to have people specialised in roles, but by no means required. Planetside had this almost perfect at BR20-23.

[Lonehunter]

So Rock Paper Scissors may have been the wrong term

The game should be designed so its more effective to have people specialised in roles, but by no means required. Planetside had this almost perfect at BR20-23.
ReXo-HA/AV has always been the dominating loadout for strait up kills. Sure there's a few people who can get more kills with a Thumper, or Bolt Driver, or a MAX. But the majority goes with the required "Cookie cutter" certs to get the most kills.

That's what I'm afraid of in PS2. I don't want HA to be the best way to kill people. I want Light Assault, MAXs, and Cloakers to be just as effective, but in a different way. Sniper on the ridge? Call a cloaker. Tank or MAX over there? Call the AV/Demo guy. Bunch of infantry in a base? Bring in Heavy Assault.

[Arrow]

So Rock Paper Scissors may have been the wrong term


ReXo-HA/AV has always been the dominating loadout for strait up kills. Sure there's a few people who can get more kills with a Thumper, or Bolt Driver, or a MAX. But the majority goes with the required "Cookie cutter" certs to get the most kills.

That's what I'm afraid of in PS2. I don't want HA to be the best way to kill people. I want Light Assault, MAXs, and Cloakers to be just as effective, but in a different way. Sniper on the ridge? Call a cloaker. Tank or MAX over there? Call the AV/Demo guy. Bunch of infantry in a base? Bring in Heavy Assault.

They were useful in PS though. If you were protecting a base with anything other then a medium assault rifle as people were storming from a tower then you were kind of retarded as MA rifles were a lot more effective. The only issue is that CQC was just so prominent in PS that it was almost more effective to roll with HA because certain utilities like surge and Mossy dropping allowed for HA to be so effective most of the time. Still though in the right situations MA rifles were highly effective.

[SKYeXile]

So Rock Paper Scissors may have been the wrong term


ReXo-HA/AV has always been the dominating loadout for strait up kills. Sure there's a few people who can get more kills with a Thumper, or Bolt Driver, or a MAX. But the majority goes with the required "Cookie cutter" certs to get the most kills.

That's what I'm afraid of in PS2. I don't want HA to be the best way to kill people. I want Light Assault, MAXs, and Cloakers to be just as effective, but in a different way.

I would like to see that too, but i would not like to see the game require a medic following me around or a guy with AV to take care of maxes.

you can do teamwork just fine by coordinating frags, fire, targets etc without a reliance on other classes. Is the one thing that turns me off other games and why I love planetside so much. I guess battlefield is okay, since you're not totally reliant on a medic or resupply..convenient to have that and av though... but most MMO's i play its "oh well we dont have a healer or tank on, may aswell play something else now" you never had that in planetside, no mater who you had on or what certs you could find something to do, granted you needed required certs to do something more tactical, but generally you dont have to rely on other people.


and HA thumper gets the most kills :)

[Erendil]

I would like to see that too, but i would not like to see the game require a medic following me around or a guy with AV to take care of maxes.

you can do teamwork just fine by coordinating frags, fire, targets etc without a reliance on other classes. Is the one thing that turns me off other games and why I love planetside so much. I guess battlefield is okay, since you're not totally reliant on a medic or resupply..convenient to have that and av though... but most MMO's i play its "oh well we dont have a healer or tank on, may aswell play something else now" you never had that in planetside, no mater who you had on or what certs you could find something to do, granted you needed required certs to do something more tactical, but generally you dont have to rely on other people.


and HA thumper gets the most kills :)

Yep, forced reliance on other players that is implemented for the sole purpose of giving the illusion of teamwork is not a game mechanic I'm too fond of. The organized outfits will already have a large focus on teamwork in their playstyle and they'll use it to get the job done whether or not game mechanics force it on them.

This thread dropped off the first page and I'm giving it a lil' /bump.

So Mr. Higby, can you please clarify this a little for us? Will the Heavy Assault class be able to use Rifles? In addition, will characters using the PS2 Rexo-equivalent be able to carry 2 rifle-sized weapons at once (namely HA, AV, or SA with a Sweeper/rifle as a backup weapon)?

Please Matt, instill us with your wisdom. :cool: Inquiring minds want to know...