Soft collision for friendlies

[Bitmap]

One of the most annoying things I've found while playing PS1 is that when defending a chokepoint position you are not able to get through the cluster of friendlies holding the enemies at bay. This is especially true of the TR MAX blockade that usually gets set up on the stairs above the doors in a tower. One of the MAXes needs to unanchor to let comrades by or they can't get through.

One way to deal with this is to allow soft collision for friendlies like they have in TF2. You get a small amount of slowdown as you pass through a friendly but are able to pass. Enemies would still present a solid barrier.

Anyone besides me get annoyed at this or have an idea to make it better in PS2?

[SKYeXile]

Sounds like a pro idea, prevents griefing, i like it.

do it.

[Bags]

I like it. Hate getting stuck on friendlies in BF3.

[Lonehunter]

I would sacrifice a child to testify how much I want this. In most FPS games there is solid collision between players, and it's always been a source of getting killed, trapped, shoved, and all around annoyed

I'd honestly prefer no collision what so ever, but I don't think most would agree so I'm good with this

[Graywolves]

People should look both ways before crossing and drivers should keep their eyes on the road and both hands on the wheel.

[none]

I like it. Hate getting stuck on friendlies in BF3.

This.:mad:

[SKYeXile]

People should look both ways before crossing and drivers should keep their eyes on the road and both hands on the wheel.

Vehicle collision would probably need to be handled differently, you cant have people walking through solid objects. The odds of SOE having grief for getting hit by a vehicle is rather low though, due to the asshat F2P factor.

[Alanim]

It could be done like halo, where low speed collisions won't cause much/any damage and "push" people.

Also I'm all for soft collisions on player on player collisions, man was it RAGE inducing to walk into a teammate in bf3 beta.

[Azren]

Read the friggin' topic people! It's not about vehicle collisions.

I support the idea of an anti collision system for foot soldiers, but it has to be in a manner where you still slow down considerably while passing through. If you can just run through anyone, that is bad.

[Justaman]

I vote yes, and that the slow effect increase based on how many allies your are currently clipping, to deter stacking. The bigger the crowd, the harder it is to wade through. :D

[Coreldan]

I like it. Hate getting stuck on friendlies in BF3.

Few deaths too many here too solely for this :D

[Duddy]

Whilst I would certainly agree with the idea, I'd want to see how the redesigned bases work out first.

Remember this is kind of a solution for a problem that, whilst seemingly obvious by PS1 standards, may not be an issue in PS2.

[Shogun]

i hated getting stuck in a room where maxes blocked the doors or on tower staircases!

but i see one issue with walking through friendlys in ps2:
in ps1 hitdetection was more of dicerolling than actual detection... in ps2 it will be accurate and if 2 players occupy the same space because one is walking through the other, the hitdetection might freak out again to decide which player takes the bullet.

and it will not take long until all soldiers try to hide inside of each other to exploit this.

[Atuday]

I always thought the purpose of the trmax blockade was to be a blockade. This means it has advantages and disadvantages. Like everything else in planetside there is give and take, and each tactic requires teamwork.

[Bitmap]

I vote yes, and that the slow effect increase based on how many allies your are currently clipping, to deter stacking. The bigger the crowd, the harder it is to wade through. :D

This sounds like a good idea.

As far as a stacking exploit goes, soft colision of the type I'm talking about would cause the stacked soldiers to repel each other somewhat. It would be like trying to keep like poles of a magnet near each other in this respect, making it very hard if not impossible to pull off for any length of time.

With respect to vehicles, hard collision will likely be neccessary to prevent other issues (not being able to enter a vehicle due to a smaller model being inside a larger one, etc)

[Xyntech]

I'm not sure how hard or resource intensive it would be, but I would like to see something that's a decent cross between the real life idea of inching your way through a crowd of friendlies and the in game compromise of clipping through them. Something even slightly more realistic seeming than TF2.

I imagine a one dimensional line running down the middle of a player model, where it is extremely hard to pass. From that center point, it get's gradually easier to pass by them, so that when you try to run into a friendly, you sort of slide around them more than walking right through them. The further you are from each others centers, the faster you move through them.

Passing through a thick crowd would still be possible, but it would be a lot harder the tighter they are clustered, but never impossible. You could also never stop moving while clipped inside a friendly, because as long as you are standing still, you would get pushed outside of their area. Obviously that pushing radius should be small, so your arm or gun or part of your foot may still be clipping into them, but no torso clipping, so you can't just have a ton of guys all sharing the same tiny spot.

[acosmo]

i dunno about you guys but i do NOT want soft collision. imagine being an anchored max going at full auto and some noob clips through you into your bullets and gives you a tk?

solid collisions reinforce a sense of teamwork and give reasons to organize units tactically in CQC situations.

[Erikson]

i dunno about you guys but i do NOT want soft collision. imagine being an anchored max going at full auto and some noob clips through you into your bullets and gives you a tk?

solid collisions reinforce a sense of teamwork and give reasons to organize units tactically in CQC situations.
That's a very good point. This can be mostly avoided depending on the amount of force applied to the soft collision. The amount of force should be a function of how close the players' centers are to each other while passing through, and direction of motion. So you are always deflected out of each other's line of fire.

Another concern is who gets bumped. I would find it annoying to be jostled around while trying to aim. Though it's somewhat realistic for this distraction to occur. It should go without saying that a planted MAX shouldn't move.

Also, no clipping through enemies. Period.

[GTGD]

Bad idea, and here's why:

Fire deci round at a MAX, infantry steps through MAX to take the shot, retreats as you get obliterated.

OR

Shooting bullets at infantry, MAX steps through to block, infantry comes back through to kill you.

I think the inconvenience of people blocking you isn't too big of a deal compared to this kind of balance. Sorry guys, you can't all wallhump a corner at the same time. Deal with it. Also, it makes the game feel weird when things aren't solid.

[Bitmap]

Explain why you think a MAX stepping up to take a bullet meant for his softie teammate (or vice versa) to be a bad thing. I think that would be a valid and realistic tactic not to mention promoting teamwork in mixed squads.

[Shogun]

the tactic is valid, but not if the max steps THROUGH the teammate to catch the bullet. that seems like exploiting and not like tactics

[Khellendros]

the tactic is valid, but not if the max steps THROUGH the teammate to catch the bullet. that seems like exploiting and not like tactics

well, if it's implemented like Xyntech said, where players aren't clipping through one another, but rather sliding past, that should be less of an issue. The two players should always be pushed away from one another while sliding past, kind of like how you and another person move to the sides of a narrow hallway to squeeze past. The splash from the deci should still hit the max.

They could also make it so that soft collision does not block aoe attacks, so decis and grenades still damage a crowd.

[Bitmap]

That sounds reasonable. A "squeeze past" mechanic is really all that's needed and shouldn't pose a problem exploit-wise.

I agree that AOE damage like a grenade should still hit the group in that case but bullet hits would depend of who's the first one in it's path (unless they make penetration rounds or somesuch)

[Justaman]

I vote yes, and that the slow effect increase based on how many allies your are currently clipping, to deter stacking. The bigger the crowd, the harder it is to wade through. :D
This sounds like a good idea.

As far as a stacking exploit goes, soft colision of the type I'm talking about would cause the stacked soldiers to repel each other somewhat. It would be like trying to keep like poles of a magnet near each other in this respect, making it very hard if not impossible to pull off for any length of time.

With respect to vehicles, hard collision will likely be neccessary to prevent other issues (not being able to enter a vehicle due to a smaller model being inside a larger one, etc)

Ahh, that sounds perfect. Also, having enough of the slow effect (maybe even make players point their guns strait up as if facing a wall) will deter players, because of their suddenly, new found, weakness to explosive things thrown in your direction. XD

[Marth Koopa]

I do not want this garbage in PlanetSide 2. It makes the game feel too casual

[deltase]

It reminds me of TF2, in which you couldn't stuck your team mates. It sounds really good and i'd like it to be implemented.

[Justaman]

I do not want this garbage in PlanetSide 2. It makes the game feel too casual

How does this make it "casual"? Please enlighten me. Explain how you came to this conclusion.

Me thinks you just enjoy the concept of being able to block the path of team mates.

In real life, having 4 guys stand shoulder to shoulder in a hallway will only ever stop you from getting past them if they actually try and push you away (such as an enemy would). You can still slip past their shoulders if they let you (such as an ally would), plenty of room.

Realism means casual. :doh:

[Xyntech]

I certainly don't want to see anyone coming through another players chest. Temporarily seeing someones arm sticking through someone else as they slide past wouldn't bother me nearly as much though.

The player who has most recently moved should always be the one who gets pushed away as well, or both get pushed equally if they were both moving when they partially clipped into each other.

Maybe things like locked down TR MAXes could have an increased radius and impact, where you could still squeeze through a row of them, but only right in between the middle of them, and that you moved agonizingly slowly while inching past them.

In real life, having 4 guys stand shoulder to shoulder in a hallway will only ever stop you from getting past them if they actually try and push you away (such as an enemy would). You can still slip past their shoulders if they let you (such as an ally would), plenty of room.

Obviously an advanced system could actually show your character pushing their way through, but we're not even getting vehicle animations, so I think the resources are better spent elsewhere for now.

As long as the system does a good job of mimicking the advantages and disadvantages of slipping through a friendly crowd, I think it will be good enough.

Clipping straight through someone is just a terrible, cheap ass solution, especially in a game like this. I'd probably take impassable friendlies over unchecked clipping through allies.

[Marth Koopa]

Me thinks you just enjoy the concept of being able to block the path of team mates.

I dislike the idea of being able to walk through people as if they're ghosts. It ruins the immersion.

How about this situation:

Someone is shooting at an enemy, they backpedal and walk through you. Now they're shooting you in the head and now you're dead.

GG soft collision.

[SKYeXile]

I dislike the idea of being able to walk through people as if they're ghosts. It ruins the immersion.

How about this situation:

Someone is shooting at an enemy, they backpedal and walk through you. Now they're shooting you in the head and now you're dead.

GG soft collision.

you deserve to die then for not getting out of the way of somebody retreating.

you're one of those guys who stands in a tower doorway and keeps trying to run into the splatmax fire as people try to escape it arnt you? blocking everybody inside.

[SuperMorto]

Make it as real as possible in my eyes.

[Atuday]

Simply due to the complexity of the problem and the many number of ways it could be abused I would avoid this and simply have teamwork be the solution to getting past a max suit or other thing that is in the way.

[SKYeXile]

Simply due to the complexity of the problem and the many number of ways it could be abused I would avoid this and simply have teamwork be the solution to getting past a max suit or other thing that is in the way.

I agree, it could be abused.

collision could be abused by:
trapping people in spawn tubes, forcing them to grief.
strapping people inside a room
blocking access to a terminal

its a free to play game, it will have the asshats of the world playing, best not give them ways to grief.

[Xyntech]

I just think that there's a nice middle ground between a wall of friendlies that is impossible to get past (easy abuse and harassment), and players constantly walking straight through each other and having dozens of players standing on the same 2 sq foot patch of land.

I'd just like to see it be impossible to block another friendly from getting past you, while making it extremely rare to see someone come straight through another player and pretty much impossible to have more than one player occupying the same space for more than a split second.

It's a compromise between the least possible abuse and the least possible immersion breaking. It should also provide a nice tactical balance between the two extremes.

[acosmo]

I just think that there's a nice middle ground between a wall of friendlies that is impossible to get past

guys this isn't tf2. shoot the mofo

[Xyntech]

guys this isn't tf2. shoot the mofo

Yes, and get some grief points for my trouble. Then they get a bunch of friends together and do it again. They are griefing you, yet you are the one getting the grief points. Outstanding.

Don't think this won't happen even more in F2P. I'm less worried about hackers in F2P than I am about asshats. Stuff that's harder to detect.

Like I've said, I'd like to see it be a more intense version of what TF2 does, where it's a lot harder to walk straight through someone, but a wall of allies doesn't even make sense. Why would a bunch of friendlies be walling you off?

A shove/push past mechanic would be too time consuming to implement, so simulate something that acts pretty much the same %90 of the time.

Rampant clipping = bad
Wall of friendlies = bad
Compromise = better

[acosmo]

whatever man. clipping in any form is lame

[SKYeXile]

Yes, and get some grief points for my trouble. Then they get a bunch of friends together and do it again. They are griefing you, yet you are the one getting the grief points. Outstanding.

Don't think this won't happen even more in F2P. I'm less worried about hackers in F2P than I am about asshats. Stuff that's harder to detect.

Like I've said, I'd like to see it be a more intense version of what TF2 does, where it's a lot harder to walk straight through someone, but a wall of allies doesn't even make sense. Why would a bunch of friendlies be walling you off?

A shove/push past mechanic would be too time consuming to implement, so simulate something that acts pretty much the same %90 of the time.

Rampant clipping = bad
Wall of friendlies = bad
Compromise = better

Yea exactly, people really are failing to realise the asshat factor in f2p games.

[Vash02]

you deserve to die then for not getting out of the way of somebody retreating.

you're one of those guys who stands in a tower doorway and keeps trying to run into the splatmax fire as people try to escape it arnt you? blocking everybody inside.
Translation:
"If you disagree with me you must be Hitler!"

Personally I want to see as little clipping as possible, i think the problem was minor in PS1, it was just a few arses that wouldnt move out of the way that were the problem.

[Marth Koopa]

you deserve to die then for not getting out of the way of somebody retreating.

you're one of those guys who stands in a tower doorway and keeps trying to run into the splatmax fire as people try to escape it arnt you? blocking everybody inside.

Right because I can totally see everything around me 360 degrees all the time, yup.

Also cool assumptions bro.

[SKYeXile]

Right because I can totally see everything around me 360 degrees all the time, yup.

Also cool assumptions bro.

its called 3rd person...and why would you be backing up into a hostile doorway anyway?

there is only 1 correct answer to that question.

[EVILoHOMER]

I like it. Hate getting stuck on friendlies in BF3.

God yeah when you all first spawn and it's so annoying being knocked around everywhere as peoples ping differences makes it like human pinball.

[ThirdCross]

This seems like it'll lead to a lot of people clipping through me into my fire.

[Bitmap]

Please, let's not let this discussion degenerate into a flame war. There have been quite a few excellent suggestions on how this problem can be dealt with.

The biggest concern seems to involve clipping through people and the lack of realism that would foster. I don't want to break anyone's immersion and I can see how that would do it pretty quickly.

Imagine, if you will, a crowded room that you need to cross. You certainly wouldn't go running right through people. It would be more of an "excuse me, excuse me, pardon me, coming through..." type of thing right? You would have to do it relatively slowly. Well, that's the basic premise behind my suggestion.

Making sure no one can occupy the same space as someone else for more then a moment would prevent stacking and feel far more realistic then just gliding through like they aren't there.

Asshatery, such as it is, WILL be present in PS2. That's just the way F2P is. Ask anyone that's played any F2P game for more then 5 minutes and they'll just nod and grimace knowingly. I believe keeping friendlies solid would cause far more grief than a well done soft collision system would. Being able to trap your teammates will only lead to this sort of behavior from the ones who get their kicks causing trouble.

Anyway, loving the ideas everyone. Let's just keep it civil please.

[NCLynx]

whatever man. clipping in any form is lame

Yea man, I hate when I'm playing a game and I'm able to get past people that I otherwise wouldn't have been able to. It's like, come on game! They were supposed to block me and prevent me from enjoying my gaming experience!

Yes. Please have some form of friendly soft collision. Although I can see vehicles being a little weirder to mess with.

[Alanim]

Why not just use a system that bases repulsion based upon how far inside someone you are, meaning running through their arm/sides/etc. would be pretty easy, but running straight though the persons chest is impossible as the repelling force would be too great to bypass with your momentum.

[Bitmap]

Keep in mind I am only talking about friendly infantry here. Enemies and vehicles should present an impassable barrier.

[Alanim]

This is a example of what I mean.

http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/4418/softcollision.png

This should be fine in almost all cases.

*edit* forgot to mention that the green part has a repelling force.

[Xyntech]

This is a example of what I mean.

http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/4418/softcollision.png

This should be fine in almost all cases.

*edit* forgot to mention that the green part has a repelling force.

You get it, and you put it in visual form. Excellent work.

This is very much along the lines I was thinking.

That red core would represent the center of mass of the player. His shoulders and arms (and a bit of his legs) would represent the green part.

Two players would have a hard time standing with their shoulders clipping into each other, because they would be repulsed away. Ordinarily, you would see stationary players standing far enough apart that nothing is clipping (except maybe a large gun like in a lot of games). Additionally, you would NEVER see more than one person standing on the same patch of real estate at the same time.

Ironically, this would mean LESS clipping than in Planetside, since you could have more than one person standing in a spawn tube in PS1. In this, players spawning into an occupied tube would get pushed out.

Clipping of any kind IS lame. But there will be at least a little clipping somewhere in any game for the foreseeable future. That's just the limitations of modern software and hardware.

It's always good to minimize such ugly game-isms, but sometimes function has to come above form.

I do not think that we need to have players running straight through each others bodies. I DO think that we should be able to work our way past walls of friendlies.

For me, the most immersive solution of all would be to actually show animations for how you are managing to jostle your way through the crowd. That's not going to happen in PS2, certainly not at launch.

The second most immersive solution is like Alanim described.

I don't find running into a brick wall created by my allies to be much less immersion breaking than running head long through their torso. Neither are immersive. Neither make sense.

This is about a compromise between immersion, gameplay and development time.

[Hamma]

Please, let's not let this discussion degenerate into a flame war. There have been quite a few excellent suggestions on how this problem can be dealt with.

Anyway, loving the ideas everyone. Let's just keep it civil please.
Yes please :)