Update from T-Ray: "There is no Leader-class"

[LZachariah]

I just thanked T-Ray for posting what I believed to be the first image of the "Leader" class, and he replied that there is no such thing. This is a surprise to me, as, for months now, I have been under the impression that the Leader was a class in this game (I remember Higby saying something like "The Leader has its own skill tree, full of things like squad-spawning and orbital strikes"). Did anyone else remember reading things like that? Well, in some ways, this is good, because that means that any of us can have Leader-abilities that fit compatibly with whatever our class-choices are.

Did anyone besides me think that "Leader" was a specific class?


Thanks for the update, T-Ray!

~Zachariah

[SKYeXile]

No the leader is a skill tree...its not tied to any class, that would be silly.

the whole thing is rather confusing though. but the leader, vehciles and aircraft skill trees are not tied to any specific 6 classes as i understand.

[LZachariah]

Yes, that makes sense. Well, it's good news to me! I'd love to add some of those Leader-skills to my demolitions-Engineer. Along with a generous splash of Scythe-pilot unlocks.

Sweet!

~Zachariah

[Infektion]

No dude... I was never under the impression of a leader class. That would be way too restrictive, more than it already has become. It's a Skill tree, so any class could have leader bonuses, I'm still against the classes thing, I hate how all modern FPS and all latest games, actually, force you to play a specific role... I just find it annoying, but then again, I grew up playing Asherons call, counter strike, UT... TRIBES. I really miss havin complete control over my character.

[SKYeXile]

No dude... I was never under the impression of a leader class. That would be way too restrictive, more than it already has become. It's a Skill tree, so any class could have leader bonuses, I'm still against the classes thing, I hate how all modern FPS and all latest games, actually, force you to play a specific role... I just find it annoying, but then again, I grew up playing Asherons call, counter strike, UT... TRIBES. I really miss havin complete control over my character.

This^

I hope that with the class system though some of the skill tress cross over so they can be used in mutiple classes. having a restirictive system would really suck.

Like i dont see why almost any class could not use an SMG so that tree could be accessed as mutiple classes...same with assult rifles really.

[NCLynx]

You can be any class you like, but you won't be spending time "researching" or w/e it will be called upgrades for the class you like it'll be spent learning leadership thingydoos. So any class you decide to play will likely have the default beginner stuff to help out, but where you come in handy is the leadership stuff your character has.

At least that's how I interpreted it.

[basti]

No dude... I was never under the impression of a leader class. That would be way too restrictive, more than it already has become. It's a Skill tree, so any class could have leader bonuses, I'm still against the classes thing, I hate how all modern FPS and all latest games, actually, force you to play a specific role... I just find it annoying, but then again, I grew up playing Asherons call, counter strike, UT... TRIBES. I really miss havin complete control over my character.

You should know the limitations of a free form class system very well then. If you can stack all the powerful things, you cause issues.

[LZachariah]

Yeah, the class system is in place to ALLOW the Devs to make each individual role really awesome. That way, they don't have to weaken sniper-rifles just because they're afraid that snipers will give themselves jump packs and medi-gear to become undying juggernauts of long-range destruction.

I think the class system is good; it will let us delve EXTREMELY deeply into the roles that we want. And not only that, but it will still totally permit someone to become a generalist, unlocking elements of any class to be able to swap out their role from any terminal or w/e. To me, the class system is vastly preferable to the other two options:

1. The Devs need to artificially restrict the power/effectiveness of MANY aspects of each role, to prevent some overpowered combinations that they discover while play-testing the game.

2. Max-level characters all look roughly identical, as overpowered combinations of weapons, armor, and abilities quickly become evident, effectively forcing players to either compete with these overpowered-combinations by choosing those combinations themselves or otherwise lose constantly at the hands of the players who DID chose the overpowered-combinations.


I think the Devs are on the right track with this one. It will let us pick our favorite flavor, and no flavor will be better than any other.

~Zachariah

[EASyEightyEight]

Yeah, the class system is in place to ALLOW the Devs to make each individual role really awesome. That way, they don't have to weaken sniper-rifles just because they're afraid that snipers will give themselves jump packs and medi-gear to become undying juggernauts of long-range destruction.

I think the class system is good; it will let us delve EXTREMELY deeply into the roles that we want. And not only that, but it will still totally permit someone to become a generalist, unlocking elements of any class to be able to swap out their role from any terminal or w/e. To me, the class system is vastly preferable to the other two options:

1. The Devs need to artificially restrict the power/effectiveness of MANY aspects of each role, to prevent some overpowered combinations that they discover while play-testing the game.

2. Max-level characters all look roughly identical, as overpowered combinations of weapons, armor, and abilities quickly become evident, effectively forcing players to either compete with these overpowered-combinations by choosing those combinations themselves or otherwise lose constantly at the hands of the players who DID chose the overpowered-combinations.


I think the Devs are on the right track with this one. It will let us pick our favorite flavor, and no flavor will be better than any other.

~Zachariah

This a thousand times.

[LZachariah]

:-)

[EASyEightyEight]

:-)

I'm just glad someone else actually gets it :)

[LZachariah]

I think Basti does, too. We're out there; we just need to sound-off so that everyone realizes how on-board we are with this idea.

~Zachariah

[Vancha]

I'd quite like to see class-specific leader trees actually. Some of the skills would be the same of course, but it seems inevitable that a sniper at the back would lead differently to a medic on the front line.

Edit: Also, I am absolutely a supporter of the class system, so long as they utilize the benefits that come with it.

[Jimmuc]

i thought higby or someone said that each class has a leadership tree so that any class can be a leader or i might be thinking things up :doh:

[Sifer2]

This is actually good news. Since it means its more like the original game. I'm guessing you will still be giving up on leveling your main class's if you chose to train leader skills though.

[SKYeXile]

This is actually good news. Since it means its more like the original game. I'm guessing you will still be giving up on leveling your main class's if you chose to train leader skills though.

Read in French accent: But off course.

[LongBow]

mhmm what I understand of the class system so far is that you can gain perks & unlocks

an unlock you keep always like unlocking "extended mags on a deci" but that does not mean that when playing a class that cannot use a deci you can take advantage of it!

perks would be choices, where you have (4) perk slots and can pick and choose different utility abilities like implants but better incorporated into the skill tree. perks could do anything from buff your squad to making hacking 50% faster ...

[SKYeXile]

mhmm what I understand of the class system so far is that you can gain perks & unlocks

an unlock you keep always like unlocking "extended mags on a deci" but that does not mean that when playing a class that cannot use a deci you can take advantage of it!

perks would be choices, where you have (4) perk slots and can pick and choose different utility abilities like implants but better incorporated into the skill tree. perks could do anything from buff your squad to making hacking 50% faster ...

is this a fact that there is perk or module slots for upgrades? Because im wondering exactly how the skilltrees would end up finally customising your gun/character/whatever.

[LongBow]

is this a fact that there is perk or module slots for upgrades? Because im wondering exactly how the skilltrees would end up finally customising your gun/character/whatever.

This is just my understanding ... taking what we do know, some reading between the lines of things devs are careful to avoid and ofc a general understanding of game design XD


but yeh it stands to reason that if you unlock a "side grade" for the pulsar then you can use that unlock whenever you can equip a pulsar.

but if you unlock an upgrade such as " increase squad members damage within 50 yards" there would have to be some kind of trade off for that.

---------

This is not to suggest that the perk unlock system is the only way -

If you could make the UI user friendly enough, it is entirely possible to have each unlock have a corresponding 'down grade' for example "carry additional med kits at the cost of grenades"

you could allow as many or as few of these to be active as you like.

It would work but I don't think the team will go for it because: one, the UI becomes a cluster 'buck' of maths, min-maxing and cherry picking it massively slows the game and nothing says bad game design like assuming your players will read the forums!
Two, great multi-player design focuses not on balancing the game but making each player equally overpowered! nothing says mediocre like +10% health -15% shields =P

[CuddlyChud]

but if you unlock an upgrade such as " increase squad members damage within 50 yards" there would have to be some kind of trade off for that.


Wouldn't the trade off be that its useless if you're not leading a squad?

[LongBow]

Wouldn't the trade off be that its useless if you're not leading a squad?

kinda - the trade off is that you can't take an 'example' +movement speed perk in its place.

=======

the squad example is bad but its the only one we have seen elaborated on in any way

The perk "+ squad <anything>" would be by all accounts overpowered as it will add more than any other perk ... the drawback of this is that you have to be in a squad and it wouldn't stack - that balances it with other perks, but its still an upgrade.

[SteinB]

Or to mesh with their whole sidegrade policy...
a squad leader skill increasing damage within 50m would decrease damage past 50m. Basically the squad leader is calling for close combat and anyone not doing that is penalized.