Scouting and Esionage

[ArmedZealot]

Should mechanics be added to the game that promote these playstyles rather than just relegating them to the "metagame" position like they are in similar MMOPVP games?

Were you satisfied with PS1 mechanics that allowed you to gather intel?

Personally I believe that scouting in PS1 was the most unrewarded profession there was. You never got any reward personally for providing information to people that could use it, and once you actually got back to the fight it was over.

Espionage is metagame just because the game never caters to such a playstyle. You have to make a new account or alt to be involved. If there were mechanics to promote this playstyle in the game in the first place it would be an accepted and respectable role to their communities.

[Metalsheep]

In PS1 90% of the time, the information a scout could gather could be quickly and easily gathered by using your CUD and using Reveal Enemies. The only thing it didn't show was AMSs, and even then it wasn't too hard to guess where one was placed.

Scouts don't have such a huge role in Planetside when info is available through use of CUD and Tactical maps, they're really only useful for finding an AMS then OSing it on their own or hacking/deconning it.

Not to say this will be the same in PS2. I hope to see more roles for cloakers and the like.

[acosmo]

what more reward do you need other than the knowledge that you were the reason your team won that night

[Princess Frosty]

In PS1 90% of the time, the information a scout could gather could be quickly and easily gathered by using your CUD and using Reveal Enemies. The only thing it didn't show was AMSs, and even then it wasn't too hard to guess where one was placed.

Scouts don't have such a huge role in Planetside when info is available through use of CUD and Tactical maps, they're really only useful for finding an AMS then OSing it on their own or hacking/deconning it.

Not to say this will be the same in PS2. I hope to see more roles for cloakers and the like.

I agree, and using infiltrator to hack an enemy AMS and then jump in a drive it away while 20 enemies are all shoot at you, that's the funniest thing ever!

[ArmedZealot]

what more reward do you need other than the knowledge that you were the reason your team won that night

While this may be good enough for a veteran, for newer players that don't understand the value of intel it may be a better way to get them involved in scouting.

[Bittermen]

While this may be good enough for a veteran, for newer players that don't understand the value of intel it may be a better way to get them involved in scouting.

It should be good enough for anyone with a brain. If they don't understand that then they shouldn't even be playing this game!

Also did the CUD and Tactical maps provide enemy positions? I think it would be important to scout out an area to see what you are up against beforehand.

[Knightwyvern]

I really enjoy the recon/stealth aspect in games. As an old PS1 sniper I loved sitting on a ridge and, when I couldn't find any targets, relay info to my CDL Brethren on enemy positions, etc.

You're right, there usually is no benefit for the actual recon player, but as long as performing stealth and recon actions has an impact and allows your Empire, Outfit, or Squad to win the day or perform better than they otherwise could, I feel it's enough.

[ringring]

Don't be so harsh guys .....

in reply, in ps1 scouting is important but intel is usually distributed via outfit TS/Vent and via cr5 channel.

Is any more needed? What would be the mechanic?


Funniest intel is when we have a cloaker in an enemy courtyard .. " oh look, they ahve a router and it goes right to the spawns" ...... " right, load a gal we're going to do a gal drop" :)

[Xyntech]

I'm not sure how valuable actual intel would be in most situations, but I would love to see cloakers given more things to do.

Maybe there could be some artificial equivalents of intel gather, such as stealing data from a enemy hex that enables your side to capture it more quickly than usual for a limited amount of time.

Stuff like that where it's an actual mechanic of the game, a predictable factor that can be balanced.

I wouldn't mind seeing some more dynamic, real intel gathering stuff as well, but some fictional intel gathering would probably help round things out.

[PoisonTaco]

You know how we're getting these resources for capturing territory right? What if the stealth players could try and sneak into enemy territory and steal resources for their empire?

[Draep]

I agree, and using infiltrator to hack an enemy AMS and then jump in a drive it away while 20 enemies are all shoot at you, that's the funniest thing ever!

That IS really funny. You don't live in New England do you?

[DviddLeff]

Scouts should be spotting enemies like in the newest battlefield games and getting bonus points for those spotted enemies being killed shortly after. They could also be lasing targets for air strikes and again being rewarded for their efforts.

[Xyntech]

Even though hacking and then driving enemy vehicles won't be in Planetside 2, i wonder if we could get something slightly similar.

Hack into an enemy vehicle and gain the ability to drive it remotely. Make the controls all wonky and disable firing of the guns maybe. Just enough control that you can wreak some havoc with it.

Since it's colors won't be changing, you could have a particle effect with electricity arcing all over the place on the vehicle to indicate that it has been hacked and compromised, also indicating that it won't incur any grief points to destroy it. The vehicle should probably be slowly losing health and blow up on it's own eventually too.

Maybe you can't control the guns, but they fire off randomly, with any turrets spinning wildly out of control?

Obviously there should be an option to decon the vehicle you hacked at any time as well, or maybe an option to self destruct it, hopefully injuring enemies in the blast.

I hate to see hacked vehicles go away, but maybe some vaguely similar stuff could fill the gap a tiny bit.

[Talek Krell]

The idea of having a much more detailed sensors interface is something that I and others have advocated. Having things like deployable radars and aircraft sensor suites that show detected enemies on the maps of allies. I like the idea that enemies killed while they are being detected in such a way would reward some support xp to the scout responsible.

As for espionage, I don't think there should ever be any sort of impersonation mechanics in the game. Still plenty that can be done though. I'd wager that there are numerous high value things like CY shield generators scattered through bases, and even just having rewards for scouting could reward clever cloakers for their effort.

Ooh, here's a twist on an old idea. Sensor Beacon: Infiltrator (possibly also SL) equipment. Can be thrown like a grenade or planted on the side of a vehicle or deployable/destructible. When attached it highlights the vehicle on the radar of allies and reveals it on the tactical map. When thrown creates a beacon visible to things like gunships and artillery.

[Metalsheep]

The idea of having a much more detailed sensors interface is something that I and others have advocated. Having things like deployable radars and aircraft sensor suites that show detected enemies on the maps of allies. I like the idea that enemies killed while they are being detected in such a way would reward some support xp to the scout responsible.

When thrown creates a beacon visible to things like gunships and artillery.

#1: In Planetside 1, the Mosquito aircraft did this. It only did so if you were at about 30% throttle and revieled anything in a small radius underneath the aircraft. Unfortunately it didn't give SEP, though i wish it did. There were also Motion Sensors, Sensor Disrupters and Aegis Shields that all influenced Radar as well. Though they could expand on this, i'd be comfortable if the even just stuck with what was in PS1.

#2 There was something similar to this in PS1 as well called the Laze Pointer, the scout had to sit and Paint the target with a visable laser that then set a beacon for all squad/platoon members and even set a crossheir for Flail (artillary) units. I'd love to see this expanded upon in PS2 as only the Flail really benefitted from this, and the becon didnt move or track specific targets, it was only useful for stationary targets.

[acosmo]

omg i feel like the aflac duck. LASER POINTER (http://www.planetside-universe.com/forums/showthread.php?p=622671#post622671)

[Zulthus]

Scouting, I agree there can be more incentives to do it. But there are plenty who do it for free because they enjoy doing it.

Espionage? That's not a gameplay mechanic and never will be. It's cheating. Hell no to that one. There's a reason it's one empire per server per account. Hopefully accounts at least take a credit card to create...

[Quantumplation]

Scouting, I agree there can be more incentives to do it. But there are plenty who do it for free because they enjoy doing it.

Espionage? That's not a gameplay mechanic and never will be. It's cheating. Hell no to that one. There's a reason it's one empire per server per account. Hopefully accounts at least take a credit card to create...

It most definitely is not cheating. It's a reality of the battlefield, and if you don't take steps to mitigate or prevent it, then you're a poor commander. There's a very clear difference between gathering intel, one of the most critical aspects of warfare, and injecting data into the packet streams or having a program auto-aim for you.

[Zulthus]

Alright then, please give me several ways as a "good commander" you would prevent an enemy from creating duplicate accounts to watch in on your empire.

The difference in this GAME is, it's just plain fucking annoying. For the 1 in 50 people who MIGHT actually use such a playstyle "properly", the other 49 will just use themselves as a spotter for a flail, use themselves to boost, to to grief your teammates. That's the truth, and you know it.

Saying it's a reality of the battlefield doesn't give it any more reason whatsoever to have the capability of it being in game. Floating tanks and energy weapons aren't a reality of the battlefield, and yet, they're in there anyway. Because they're fun and everyone likes it.

[SKYeXile]

It most definitely is not cheating. It's a reality of the battlefield, and if you don't take steps to mitigate or prevent it, then you're a poor commander. There's a very clear difference between gathering intel, one of the most critical aspects of warfare, and injecting data into the packet streams or having a program auto-aim for you.

No if you dont take steps to mitigate it, then you're a poor game designer. Lucky thats not the case and SOE look to be allover the asshat factor.

Griefing or enemys logging on as "friendlys" sabotaging you're "friendly" facilty, spawn tubes, generator, clearing defences is bad gameplay design, since you cant stop them without getting grief...the gameplay mechanic designed to stop greifers. whats a commander going to do "Oh quick! stop that spy! kill him then camp him until we get grief locked and can nolonger play! that will show him!"

Its not the reailty of the battlefield, there is no reality, its a game a F2P one at that. It is cheating and it will be in the ELUA and griefing you're own empire willbe a suspendable and bannable offense.

[Quantumplation]

Operational security. Being moderately careful about who knows what about your operation goes a ridiculously long way to prevent intel leaks. Rather than announcing "Everyone gather up at Facility A so we can go hit Facility B", you just tell people to gather up at Facility A. When they get there, your two trusted galaxy pilots are there, and you've privately told them the destination. Instead of the 45 minutes of warning someone would have for all the time it takes to organize and get everyone together for a gal drop, they have maybe 5 minutes, and all the while the spotter is never quite sure where you're really going. Hell, even being a bit more careful about who you recruit goes a long way.

A few simple things that SOE can do to hamper outright griefing (since there's nothing they can do to stop the multiaccount thing):

1) The minimap doesn't show exact figures/positions for troops not in your squad, platoon, outfit, etc.
2) As a commander, I should be able to control which squads can see other squads on the minimap. Thus, my infiltration squad that's sneaking behind enemy lines to place detonation charges on the Anti-Air can't be foiled by someone who hopped in the massive infantry squad of 50+ people.
3) The stronger griefing mechanics that Higby talked about at one point, that have harsher penalties for newer accounts who grief.

What I meant when I said it's a reality of the battlefield was that there's no way to prevent it, and thus it will occur on the battlefield in planetside2. Anything you might do to stop it either can be outmaneuvered or will stop people from playing the game. I, for example, don't have a single credit card, so wouldn't be able to play. Other people have 15 credit cards. My two best friends won't play unless they can play together, and they're behind the same IP, whereas someone who wants to can easily get access to others (tethered phone, proxies, etc). It's something that's going to happen, and thus it's a reality of the battlefield. Making it slightly difficult by requiring multiple accounts and either multiple computers or a computer strong enough to run two clients weeds out a huge portion of the people who just don't care enough to put in the effort. The rest of the way should be done by good leadership that knows how to exercise proper operational security. Thus, when it is used for an advantage, it's because someone made a mistake, and it's a tactical advantage that needs to be exploited.

I'm not speaking about griefing, in which you are attacking or exploding your own empire because trololol it's so funny. I'm talking about successfully subverting and infiltrating the enemy ranks for the purpose of gathering intel.

[Bittermen]

Need to know basis.

Higher ups know whats going on... everyone else just needs to listen and follow orders.

[CutterJohn]

I used to sit on top of a base antenna and call out movements to a cr5 buddy, who would then send someone out to intercept.

I think it would be nifty for there to be a spotting gizmo, or maybe a tracer tag gizmo, that would put the unit up on the map for everyone to see for a minute or two. It would replace a rifle, and have rather limited ammo.

Have it make a little audible noise when it attaches, and maybe one brief burst of light, then the tracer gizmo cloaks and can only be seen with darklight.


A generalized spot command would be good as well, like the bf games have. Just have an internal cooldown to avoid spam. Spots for 5 ish seconds before fading out.

Wouldn't be bad for there to be radar units as well. I also once posited the idea of Radar Towers sprinkled around the continent, which would be good to hold because they would put enemy radar signatures on the maps for friendlies. Not constantly, but a sweep every 30s or so.

[MpS]

I would love to see some kind of scouting added into the game but as stated earlier as with Planetside 1 there wasn't much use for scouting. If they could make it so infiltrators could mark certain targets making it easier to know who and what to target would be great, it wouldn't change game mechanics too much and it would help add more organization to outfits.

[Soothsayer]

Don't be so harsh guys .....

in reply, in ps1 scouting is important but intel is usually distributed via outfit TS/Vent and via cr5 channel.

Is any more needed? What would be the mechanic?



I haven't posted for a while, but things seem to be heating up with dev activity. This thread really hits close to something that I want to see happen.

I'd say the mechanic that would pay off an intel/recon player would be the automatic mission spawning system.

If the scout used a scope or networked camera device to visually tag a number of vehicles which had a directional heading it could turn into one of those automatically generated missions that we used to hear about. Additional scouts would get a better fix on where the armour column is going.

Whoever intercepts it gets the mission xp as well as the kill xp -- the scouts that brought it to the attention of the empire get kickbacks for spotting it and generating the mission.

As far as I know this is all well within what we know about what's planned for the mission system.

[PoisonTaco]

Have you guys heard about the Tribunal system (http://na.leagueoflegends.com/legal/tribunal) for League of Legends? How players are reported and then judged on by fellow players?

Why not have something similar. Get greifed by someone in your Empire, submit a report and it can be sent in for review by other players.

[Talek Krell]

#2 There was something similar to this in PS1 as well called the Laze Pointer,I am aware of the existence of the laze pointer. :P
What I'm thinking of though is something that you can sneak up and sticky to the side of a vehicle, which can then drive off with the thing still attached. Basically something much more infiltrator friendly. (Read: does not draw a big glowing line back to them)

[Xyntech]

Have you guys heard about the Tribunal system (http://na.leagueoflegends.com/legal/tribunal) for League of Legends? How players are reported and then judged on by fellow players?

Why not have something similar. Get greifed by someone in your Empire, submit a report and it can be sent in for review by other players.

Yep, we've discussed it recently and you wouldn't believe the random shitstorm it generated.

It may not work as well in Planetside, but it's worth considering. Anything that could potentially help is worth looking at.

Hopefully the devs have already taken it into account, given the fact that they seem to like League of Legends.

[super pretendo]

I think a sensor that shows a HUD icon above enemies on your allies HUD would be great, like in BC2 where recons could throw the motion sensor and show enemies

[Metalsheep]

I am aware of the existence of the laze pointer. :P
What I'm thinking of though is something that you can sneak up and sticky to the side of a vehicle, which can then drive off with the thing still attached. Basically something much more infiltrator friendly. (Read: does not draw a big glowing line back to them)

Im not sure how much i like the idea of having to get so close to the vehicle. Any time i've had a cloaker anywhere near my vehicle, or been a cloaker near one, i've been splattered instantly by the unwitting driver. Though, if something like this were added, i would hope we could also stick Boomers, or some kind of scrambling device that could mess with the vehicles systems. (like the T-REK virus in PS1) Or even kind of a reverse of the beacon, that shows the enemy vehicle as an enemy to his own team to cause confusion.

As long as its not like BFBC2 where a sniper can sprint up to a tank, plant a C4 on it, then blow up the whole tank before anyone in the tank can do anything about it.

[DayOne]

I think instead of "espionage", "intel-gathering" could be a very good gameplay feature. As mentioned before you steal some sort or intel that make capturing a base slightly faster. Or how about installing hidden cameras in bases? Limited to only 1 or 2 per area due to "interference" but it would be pretty cool. Remember you have to actually get into bases to plant these and just a few motion sensors could foil you.

Another pretty cool feature, with all these resources and what-not, would be sabotage. Although not directly gaining the resources for yourself you effectively deny the enemy resources until it is fixed. A simple addition of long time charges or remote explosives would be perfect for this.

[sylphaen]

You're describing the recon/stealth class and some extra objectives/roles that could be given to that class.

Now if this even foreshadows the reappearance of ghost hacks or ghost gen-blows, it will not be fun. No one wants to get out of the action and repair stuff on a empty continent.

So to your idea, I would suggest keeping those "sabotage" roles/objectives close to the combat zone if they ever implement something like that.

[DayOne]

Generators are heavily guarded by motion sensing auto turrets? only resources would be a viable option for one or very few people to destroy?

[Raka Maru]

I think instead of "espionage", "intel-gathering" could be a very good gameplay feature. As mentioned before you steal some sort or intel that make capturing a base slightly faster. Or how about installing hidden cameras in bases? Limited to only 1 or 2 per area due to "interference" but it would be pretty cool. Remember you have to actually get into bases to plant these and just a few motion sensors could foil you.

Another pretty cool feature, with all these resources and what-not, would be sabotage. Although not directly gaining the resources for yourself you effectively deny the enemy resources until it is fixed. A simple addition of long time charges or remote explosives would be perfect for this.

I like these ideas. It would introduce a new set of bug/bug sweeper tools for the infiltrator.

[Raka Maru]

You're describing the recon/stealth class and some extra objectives/roles that could be given to that class.

Now if this even foreshadows the reappearance of ghost hacks or ghost gen-blows, it will not be fun. No one wants to get out of the action and repair stuff on a empty continent.

So to your idea, I would suggest keeping those "sabotage" roles/objectives close to the combat zone if they ever implement something like that.

Self repairing bases could take care of some of these worries. It can also trigger a side mission to go fix it that a small squad can do. It still can be fun.

[Socks]

I must say that i really like the BF3 spotting mechanic. Its really usefull and brings some interesting gameplay.

I guess for ps2 i could be refined. Perhaps make it infiltrator only or part of the cr-tree. lvl 1 spotting shows the enemy to your squadmates for a few seconds. lvl 2 shows the enemy to your platoon. lvl 3 reveal enemy?

Perhaps spotting requires an item? and spotting should have a cooldown or something so you cant spam it.

and as in BF3 you should be rewarded for spotting. a percentage of the exp or something.

Hope they implement something like this!

[Graywolves]

I've had ops where we had to deal with spies all the time, it wasn't gamebreaking or a huge deal. "WTF everyone was waiting for us? Clear comms." then we just load the fucking gal and go somewhere without an anouncement.


However, I do plan on streaming and I am concerned that people will watch my stream on one monitor and then play the game on another. For an op I might need to shut it down.



Scouting could be rewarded via bonoculars and clicking on shit I guess. (then we get everyone wanting free XP....) I think Scouting should remain its own reward. We don't need people after BEP doing it. Out of 200+ people I guarentee you atleast one dude will be running around on an ATV or flying all over the place on his Mosquito and tell everyone he can about Wolfpack's column of Magriders coming up the road to the south, or w.e.

[CutterJohn]

However, I do plan on streaming and I am concerned that ******* will watch my stream on one monitor and then play the game on another. For an op I might need to shut it down.

Can't you put them on a five minute delay or something? Should be more than enough.

[Graywolves]

Can't you put them on a five minute delay or something? Should be more than enough.

That would probably work.

[Xyntech]

That would probably work.

I think this would be pretty awesome. I totally agree with avoiding actual live broadcast of information that could give your enemy an advantage, but live doesn't have to be 100% that instant. I'd say that even 15 - 20 minute delay would still be live enough in most cases, while a delay that large would completely destroy any tactical value that the streamed information would relay.

[Crator]

Delay should be fine... Now if we are talking about e-sports, with many watchers and real-time stats, etc... Then you probably wouldn't want a delay... But we aren't talking about e-sports....