Planetside 2 Removing my favorite aspect of PS1

[Wakken]

First of all, I hope im not beating the dead horse too much. I know there has been several topics on the matter, but as this is more of a question/feedback thread I thought I'd make a new one for it.

My favorite part of Planetside 1... being able to customize your character how you wanted, and play it as you wanted. Aka no "classes".

I loved playing as a cloaker and putting out a few mines/turrets where me and my outfit thought the invasion would take place. But seeing as Planetside 2 hammer this feature to the ground and adds classes instead, what good will that bring? Will it still be as fun as in Planetside 1? That to me, the cert system, is one of the unique things of planetside, that made it stand out of other shooters.

As I've understood it, they added the "class" system because of possible overpowered combinations. Like... jetpacking up to a hard accessible area and putting down turrets. But would that really be OP? Too me that feels more like tactical advantage. And he still have to trade points to be able to do that combination. He has to spend points to get a jetpack, he has to spend points to get the turrets right?

Or maybe, have a system that adds more like requirements. For example:

A cloaker/any soldier can put down basic mines and turrets, but to get the more heavier and meaty stuff, you have to be a engineer. Or... Maybe a standard soldier can have simple medic equipment. But specialized medic will have much more advanced equipment to heal faster.

I just hate to my favorite feature in planetside to be hammered down in planetside 2. That is the freedom of your character and the freedom of certs. To be able to customize my character to fit my play style. It worked perfectly fine in PS1, why change something that made Ps1 so special and different from other shooters. Feels like Planetside 2 is like Battlefield 3/CoD mix but a much larger scale. Not sure if I like that...

What good will come from "classes"?

[NCLynx]

You can still customize quite a bit. Before the battle ranks allowed you to have so many cert points that you could do w/e you wanted, you essentially chose a role (class) back then as well. Not that huge of a change.

[Zhane]

I don't mind things being a little more specialized. Every veteran player being able to do everything and do it well just ended up making things very generic.

Personally I'm looking to fill a support role - not medic, but the driver/scout/supply guy. That'll probably mean engineer so I can place deployables once I've delivered my troops, I'm guessing.

[HawkEye]

You can still customize quite a bit. Before the battle ranks allowed you to have so many cert points that you could do w/e you wanted, you essentially chose a role (class) back then as well. Not that huge of a change.


This. Don't understand why people are complaining about what is planned for PS2 when they have not even played it yet.

[SKYeXile]

They having classes most likely because things are easier to balance. with each classes having its own pool of weapons and possible armour and certs, its easy to buff of nerf that than to change a single weapon, then have it spiral out of control depending on what armour they were wearing with what implants.

For example can you imagine if a scout in TF2 could use a minigun?...hrm yea.

[Figment]

You can still customize quite a bit. Before the battle ranks allowed you to have so many cert points that you could do w/e you wanted, you essentially chose a role (class) back then as well. Not that huge of a change.

More or less, with the nuanciation that within the limitations of a PS1 suit, you were not restricted in defining what exactly this 'class' entails. PS2 defines the classes much more beyond your basic suit as it has already split up these suits (in comparison to PS1) to fit more specific roles. Basically you had five 'classes' in PS1, one of five suit types: standard/infil/agile/rexo/MAX. Within these classes you can fit in the inventory whatever weapons and tools you have access to and you can use inherent traits (for instance, advanced hacking) on each "class" as long as you carried the correct tool. In fact, aside from the MAX, the only limitation on what you could use was your slot, but this didn't prevent you from switching gear from inventory in order to use it. The new system sounds like it does do just that.

So I wouldn't say it's the same thing, in fact, it's a pretty big change.

In PS2, as I understand it now, there may be more suits/classes, but there are more rules to the suits as they exclude the use of certain tools, even if you have the certs and the inventory or holster space on your character.

So there is quite a significant difference: basically your character seems to be becoming more schizofrenic as one moment it can, the next it can't do certain stuff.

Whether that's a good thing depends on the rest of the gameplay context, but it's definitely more like BF/CoD and other generic shooters (and dare I say, RPGs) than it is traditional PlanetSide sandbox.

[CuddlyChud]

You are beating a dead horse btw.

Personally, i'm fine with classes. Maybe its because I'm used to FPS's with classes. But I wasn't a huge fan of the cert system. I hated the fact that I had to constantly recert whenever I felt like doing something different. I think the class system is good in that it will let me do different roles during one play session. I guess the class system would suck if you had found the 1 perfect combination of certs that you played 100% of the time in PS1, but otherwise I'm glad for the change.

The cert system was ok for making me look forward to my next BR, and limiting what I could do at once, but a class system could do that as well.

And from a balance perspective I'm sure its much easier to balance items with classes. As a PVP game, balance is probably the most important thing above all else.

[Figment]

Ehr... I'm not sure if it is easier to balance say... (random number) 8 classes while people can set their own different shield generation recharge speed vs max shield strength AND each class having access or being limited to different/certain set of weapons, opposed to four set infantry suits and MAXes, with the same weapons. >.>

To me it sounds more complex to manage a balance. Doesn't mean it can't be done, but if it was so easy, you honestly think there'd be whining in WoW about classes?

[CuddlyChud]

Well I mean, the Lasher 2.0 might not have been as big a deal if only 1 class could equip it. If everyone went HA class, you'd have no medics/support.

[Figment]

Well I mean, the Lasher 2.0 might not have been as big a deal if only 1 class could equip it. If everyone went HA class, you'd have no medics/support.

The Lasher 2.0 or any other version wouldn't have been an issue had it been properly field tested before implemented.

For instance, a test focused around indoor combat, rather than ES tanks... *looks at Voidrage*

[Wakken]

Thank you Figment for explaining a bit further.

Maybe this is not a huge deal for some of you, but for me it is. I had my best moments in PS1 because of the freedom of your character. Thats the reason I played planetside instead of other shooters. I rarely played in any other suit than the infil suit. Maybe a few times when I drove the AMS.

I placed down mines/turrets as a cloaker, I killed people as a cloaker, I hacked as a cloaker, almost everything I did was as a cloaker. I'd hate PS2 to go too much to the generic side of shooters. Stick with your guns, make PS2 more like PS1 that we love so much.

I'd hate to see my experience being ruined because of details.

[Wakken]

You are beating a dead horse btw.


Figured as much, but I thought I'd give my feedback anyways

[VioletZero]

They having classes most likely because things are easier to balance. with each classes having its own pool of weapons and possible armour and certs, its easy to buff of nerf that than to change a single weapon, then have it spiral out of control depending on what armour they were wearing with what implants.

For example can you imagine if a scout in TF2 could use a minigun?...hrm yea.

If a scout had a minigun, he'd suck. Because you're slowed to a crawl every time he needed to fire.

Now, a Scout with a mine launcher or an invisibility watch...*shiver*

[Figment]

That said, I personally felt BR20 was about as much freedom as one should give a character. The entire concept of BR40 ruined the game in terms of character specialisms. A lot of people had a lot of different characters which you could also see as a "class" on its own:

Some people had characters set up as infils (like me) and apparently Wakken. While others focused on medics, engineering, HA/piloting, etc. They had often created very specific characters to support their outfit in certain roles.

In that respect, having the ability to change class in PS2 replaces the need for alternate characters really as it is more advantageous to develop all skills on the same character (unless of course offline training allows that on multiple characters, in which case you could train multiple things at once, but would have to switch characters till you'd get it trained on your main). Eventually though, as every skill is unlockable, a single character will be a bit like a BR40: changing classes "characters" at will in a very short time span will change the type of player you're up against, which makes planning harder and they'll be able to do a lot of things.

Btw, I'm just not sure whether there were some cert limitations in place still. If so then at least there would still be a need for alternate characters and some limitation in what a player can do over the course of a few deaths and respawns.

[Warborn]

You seem to think that classes mean you won't have the capacity to create new memorable moments in this game. I don't see any reason to think that's the case. Maybe you won't be able to drop turrets and mines while invisible anymore, but who's to say the new function infiltrators will have won't be even more enjoyable? In short, I'd not worry about it. It's a new game. Time for new gameplay experiences.

[texico]

A lot of the hate I see thrown at PlanetSide 1's more sandbox cert system is that it resulted in super-soldiers, with people doing everything. But as Fig pointed out, that becomes more of a problem when there's too many certs available to a character.

Everything is the key word. It wasn't a problem, or at least nobody was bothered, by the fact that people could do multiple things. Cloaking and laying CE wasn't a problem. The problem came when a normal infantry could be completely self-sustainable, as in they had the tools to take on all types of adversary and were able to heal/repair themselves without support. But this wasn't a fundamental problem with the cert system, it was a problem of having too many cert points or too cheap certifications.

A key feature of PlanetSide 1 was that players organised themselves into classes naturally, in response to the environmental conditions and their own skills. But these classes were more general and less well defined because of the extent to which people could customize their load out. If you went and found a Sniper hill, there's a good chance every Sniper would have configured themselves differently; some would be carry a Sniper Rifle and AV, and acting as a kind of long-distance assault for example. In PS2 if players are pushed into classes, these kind of perfectly legitimate hybrid classes disappear, and you're therefore reducing the variety of gameplay, but also the complexity of combat and tactical gameplay.

I think my population distribution graphs were a pretty good example. 9 roles in TF2 that everybody is contained in; predictable, no variety, no fine-tuned roles that more accurately match the requirements of battle, just 9 classes that everybody is and only will be.

[Warborn]

Cloaking and laying CE wasn't a problem.

That depends on who you ask. If that were the kind of gameplay they want cloakers to gravitate toward in PS2 then, no, it wouldn't be a problem. But, clearly they have decided that they want cloakers to experience gameplay other than being a mad bomber this time around. In that case, yes, cloakers laying CE would be a problem because that is not what they want the cloaker experience to include.

And that's really what the point is. They want there to be defined gameplay experiences. They want there to be infantry who are mobile with jetpacks, but which aren't as durable or heavily armed as infantry wearing rexo with HA. If a proposed cert system would allow for someone to wear heavy armor and jetpack, or wear a jetpack and HA, or do something else that defies the archetypes they've established with their class system, then it is contravening the gameplay they have in mind for this sequel, and on that basis alone it is a "problem".

[CuddlyChud]

Classes allow for more differentiation in terms of abilities. Rexo was basically just an upgraded version of agile armor after the rexo buff and surge nerf. By splitting these two into classes, you can differentiate them more so that the light ("agile") class has jet packs, but he doesn't get HA. People didn't really organize themselves into classes. They chose one/two weapons that they liked/were useful. Kinda like in CoD, which imo doesn't have classes since they're completely customizable. You just choose a gun loadout, perks and killstreak loadout and assign it to a class, kinda like the cert system.
There was no "class" distribution in PS1. Almost everyone in PS1 was a medic first, rifleman second. The concept of the supersoldier is that they are completely self-sufficient and don't need other people other than for the extra dps.
Classes are just a better way, for me, to experience all the content on a more regular basis, as opposed to the cert system.

[Vash02]

In my opinion, the self supporting soldier problem has been inflated out of all proportion. It didnt affect gameplay for the majority. The only times it mattered was in small fights of maybe 1v3 etc where one pro guy kept on owning a tower.
It may of been a source of irritation for the person who wanted to be a medic but they had plenty of rezzing jobs to do. And an Engineer should be looking after the MAXes instead of the meatbags.

[NCLynx]

More or less, with the nuanciation that within the limitations of a PS1 suit, you were not restricted in defining what exactly this 'class' entails. PS2 defines the classes much more beyond your basic suit as it has already split up these suits (in comparison to PS1) to fit more specific roles. Basically you had five 'classes' in PS1, one of five suit types: standard/infil/agile/rexo/MAX. Within these classes you can fit in the inventory whatever weapons and tools you have access to and you can use inherent traits (for instance, advanced hacking) on each "class" as long as you carried the correct tool. In fact, aside from the MAX, the only limitation on what you could use was your slot, but this didn't prevent you from switching gear from inventory in order to use it. The new system sounds like it does do just that.

But that's wrong.

The "classes" weren't defined by the armor you wore, they were also defined by the limitations they brought with them. I'll be excluding Standard because I hardly ever saw anyone use that seriously anyway.

Using agile freed up at least 3 cert points for not using rexo. You could get more of what you wanted be it vehicles maybe more weapons but you couldn't use anymore than the 1 weapon (MAYBE 1 deci if you really wanted, but 1 deci could hardly be considered an anti-veh class). You could have more points to have for support.

Rexo didn't allow you to use many vehicles (maybe 1 or 2 tops). So why would you even get them in the first place? Get weapons OR support or a slight mix of both. Can't go to far into both though (During the days of BR20).

MAX/Cloaker: Points used for a very specific armor, MAXes couldn't do anything but walk n shoot (maybe get a ride here n there too) so you were very limited but very hard hitting. Cloaker, well you get the idea.

If you had MAX/Cloaker chances are you did NOT have rexo, and possibly had either limited vehicles in agile or more support. Whatever other role you chose to throw those points into.

The "classes" were hardly just what armor you wore.

PS2 "classes" are fine.

[texico]

That depends on who you ask. If that were the kind of gameplay they want cloakers to gravitate toward in PS2 then, no, it wouldn't be a problem. But, clearly they have decided that they want cloakers to experience gameplay other than being a mad bomber this time around. In that case, yes, cloakers laying CE would be a problem because that is not what they want the cloaker experience to include.

And that's really what the point is. They want there to be defined gameplay experiences. They want there to be infantry who are mobile with jetpacks, but which aren't as durable or heavily armed as infantry wearing rexo with HA. If a proposed cert system would allow for someone to wear heavy armor and jetpack, or wear a jetpack and HA, or do something else that defies the archetypes they've established with their class system, then it is contravening the gameplay they have in mind for this sequel, and on that basis alone it is a "problem".

But that's what the whole cookie-cutter thing about classes means. You're sectioning players into the experience you want to give them. In PlanetSide, the experience you were given was that of a soldier in a battle for a planet, with X equipment available to your particular empire. That's the experience you got. How you choose to live out that experience was up to you, and that's what made PlanetSide great. You weren't forced into how you were going to participate.

In my opinion, classes are a cheap, easy and inferior way to attempt to gravitate players towards a way of playing - it's basically force. If the dev's want cloakers to gravitate away from a particular play style (i.e killwhoring with bombers), then they best way to do that is to add in additional variables that make it disadvantageous to play that way, for example, make boomers shine so they can be seen floating when cloakers hold them, or make them so big cloakers can only carry 2 or 3. That way, you can manipulate the majority of the player base into doing things without forcing them, and those that want to do it despite the disadvantage (which if the disadvantage is enough, would be few) can still do.

Otherwise, why stop at classes? Why not a system that automatically puts you into the empire with the lowest population, or picks a class for you automatically based on the number of people fulfilling each class? You could address all problems of balance and the devs could perfectly create their vision of how battles are organized and pan out by doing this. You don't do it because players want to be in control of their own gaming experience, and the more control you give them the less stressed and happier they're going to be in the game. Obviously, it becomes a balancing act between player's freedom and the coherency and balance of the game, but PlanetSide 1 showed you can give players the freedom to to choose, manipulate and gravitate them based on buffs/nerfs, advantages and disadvantages, and all though there were problems with balance in some cases, they could have been resolved with more effort and care from the devs.


Classes allow for more differentiation in terms of abilities. Rexo was basically just an upgraded version of agile armor after the rexo buff and surge nerf. By splitting these two into classes, you can differentiate them more so that the light ("agile") class has jet packs, but he doesn't get HA. People didn't really organize themselves into classes. They chose one/two weapons that they liked/were useful. Kinda like in CoD, which imo doesn't have classes since they're completely customizable. You just choose a gun loadout, perks and killstreak loadout and assign it to a class, kinda like the cert system.
There was no "class" distribution in PS1. Almost everyone in PS1 was a medic first, rifleman second. The concept of the supersoldier is that they are completely self-sufficient and don't need other people other than for the extra dps.
Classes are just a better way, for me, to experience all the content on a more regular basis, as opposed to the cert system.

The jetpack example doesn't have to be a feature of a class to achieve that. It can simply be a feature of the agile exo suit - one of those many customization's. And it's reasonably plausible and realistic that something like a MAX couldn't use a jetpack due to obvious weight problems. It's not plausible that a soldier can't carry a sniper rifle and a machine gun, or a shotgun and a medical app, just cos... well, the devs don't want you to.


I don't know what you mean by people not organizing themselves into classes? Of course people did (I'm talking about everyone organizing themselves into their own classes). If you entered a battle, there'd be a hill full of people Sniping. If you zoomed in, there'd be nametags (cloakers) sneaking around next to the enemy. If you went to a tower, there might be a MAX crash organized waiting to hit a base. If you went near a loadstar, there'd be people with glue guns and repair apps repairing everything. If you went to the front line, there'd be infantry there, some of them in agile suits with Gauss rifles so they could move quickly, some of them in rexo's with Jackhammers and Phoenix Launchers so they could be tougher and more durable. None of these roles were official, none of them had to be specifically selected, none of them had restrictions making you play a certain way. Everybody just did it naturally based on how they wanted to play and what the battle demanded, and because of the cert system and inventory, they could taylor themselves very specifically to meet those variables.


If there's a problem with people not being able to experience enough dimensions of the game with the cert system, why not just remove the 6 hour timer?

-drop the number of certs available to 15-18
-remove the 6 hour timer

There. Now there aren't enough certs for people to do EVERYTHING like a supersoldier, and the removal of the timer between relearning certs means you can experience any aspect of the game you want to as quickly as the class system proposed for PS2.

Nobody has to be forced into certain ways of playing, everybody has the freedom to choose whatever aspect of the game they want to play at any given time (just like selecting a class when spawning in PS2), people can't be completely self sustainable and rely on teamwork, and everybody will organize themselves into classes "organically" in response to the demands of the battle and their own skill, and be able to taylor themselves to whatever unusual or hybrid or specific role they want.

[EASyEightyEight]

Nobody has to be forced into certain ways of playing, everybody has the freedom to choose whatever aspect of the game they want to play at any given time (just like selecting a class when spawning in PS2), people can't be completely self sustainable and rely on teamwork, and everybody will organize themselves into classes "organically" in response to the demands of the battle and their own skill, and be able to taylor themselves to whatever unusual or hybrid or specific role they want.

I'd rather be able to pick a class that has a set selection of equipment it can use than to have to visit a cert terminal or relog into another character every time I want to do something else because I don't have the certs to do anything else.

People are touting the old system as phenomenal, but frankly, they're just defending Rexo/HA/AV/med/engi, and the capability to arrange their 4 ammo boxes to the left of the medkits instead of to the right. If they suggest any way to take even one aspect of that away, why not go to a class system? **** the restrictions on what I have access to. The old system was shallow and unnecessarily restrictive.

If one honestly thinks they're going to concern themselves with remembering hundreds of peoples cert load outs instead of just treating everyone as a brand new target, a different player, they're delusional.

Cloakers will be able to spec into being snipers. I have no doubt they can spec into sabotage, which I would assume incorporates REALLY BIG BOMBS on its equipment list before heading out for battle.

[Lonehunter]

Just don't give up on the game till you play it. I was against classes at first but slowly changed. The way I see it, classes will allow us to specialize into a certain role even more then before. Honestly I wouldn't worry about missing out on your favorite CE toys, I think it's rather obvious they made cloaking what it was and the new Infiltrators will probably have them or another variation.

But now with classes we can get even more cloaking toys, like a deployable sticky camera that we can detonate, maybe an ability to grant pure stealth for a short time even while running. But then the Engineers could get man-able turrets, create ammo stations, create a temporary bunker, all things a cloaker wouldn't usually do.

[Vash02]

Why wouldnt you be able to that in a cert system? If they wanted a specialised infiltration role they could just make a new "infiltration" cert tree.

[Lonehunter]

Why wouldnt you be able to that in a cert system? If they wanted a specialised infiltration role they could just make a new "infiltration" cert tree.
Because of PS1's One-Man-Army-ness. Every cert had to be balanced in a way that didn't make certain combinations more OP, yes they didn't do a great job at that. But with even more powerful class-specific abilities letting people have their pick of the deadliest combinations is just harder to balance.

[Warborn]

But that's what the whole cookie-cutter thing about classes means. You're sectioning players into the experience you want to give them. In PlanetSide, the experience you were given was that of a soldier in a battle for a planet, with X equipment available to your particular empire. That's the experience you got. How you choose to live out that experience was up to you, and that's what made PlanetSide great. You weren't forced into how you were going to participate.

You're assuming that the classes will be limited enough and inflexible enough that the breadth of gameplay options you have will be considerably less. I don't see any reason to assume that's the case. On the contrary, in fact, even though you don't have infiltrators planting bombs now one can assume that they will have a gameplay niche to compensate for that. Perhaps now they will actually have a useful function beyond simply planting boomers/turrets everywhere. Similarly, there is now room for a medic role in the game, something Planetside didn't have an analog to on account of every infantry guy having medical applicators.

The only thing this does is define niches better. Niches are very important for team based games, because they promote synergy and thus team work. Encouraging players to cooperate only works if people have pros and cons to their role. This desire for teamwork was obviously present in PS1, but with the sequel they appear to be taking it to the next level. Which makes sense.

At any rate, there are plenty of class based shooters which remain very popular after years of being on the market alongside classless shooters. Classes do not appear to be correlated with an FPS game being less fun to play. So the complaints regarding classes for PS2 seems to me, so far, to be mainly resistance to things being different, which I don't think is a healthy attitude to take.

[Vash02]

Because of PS1's One-Man-Army-ness. Every cert had to be balanced in a way that didn't make certain combinations more OP, yes they didn't do a great job at that. But with even more powerful class-specific abilities letting people have their pick of the deadliest combinations is just harder to balance.

Why should we care if its easy or hard to balance? its not our job. What we should care about is what the gameplay is like at the end.
I just value more freedom rather than customisation.

[Princess Frosty]

I share the same concerns with the infiltrator, all we can hope is that the infiltrator will be given their own tools and tech tree so we have weapons and tools more tailored for infiltrating, hopefully a lot of them tools will allow you to actually remain undetected rather than being essentially just another combat unit with cloaking and limited combat capability.

[sylphaen]

I agree with Vash that what was done with PS2 could have been done in PS1: no timers on recerting.

The difference in PS2 is that you can be BR40 and get access to everything, the restriction is a the equipment level when you choose your spawn class. They also could have done the same in PS1 by giving restrictions to specific cert combinations (e.g.: Medic cert unavailable if you are certed for Heavy Assault, etc...)

Essentially, I agree with Vash that PS2 is making players fit into a role over which they have less control. There is no "make your own class" in PS2. Just a "Customize how you want to play the defined class you chose".

I'm waiting to see PS2 for further judgment. They may give customization choices that blend classes into hybrid roles.

I think PS may lose its depth of gameplay and immersiveness from PS1 (mainly because PS1 downtimes, while boring, made the most intense moments great - PS2 will be fast paced non-stop shoot-em-up).

Don't get me wrong, I loved ET:RtcW: it was an intense, fast paced shooter with classes and some limited character advancement through "campaigns" (sets of 3-6 maps played in cycles).

I loved PS1 for other reasons though.

I may or may not love PS2 but one thing is certain: PS2 will not be the PlanetSide experience we had with PS1. And I'm sure that while trying to update the gameplay, the devs are trying really hard to keep/recapture the best of PS1 using a different gameplay format.

Whether the new recipe is a success or a disappointing blend of BF boring gameplay with a hint of PS, we will only know at release.

Edit: FYI, I say BF has boring gameplay because demopack bunny hopping on no-FF servers is worse than irritating in my book and simply does not entertain me. Almost as much as instant 360 degree entrance into vehicles. Those gameplay highlights along a few others are what keep me far far away from the BF style games.

Edit2: and I agree that for PS1, the only problem with the cert system was the increasing the BR max level. Then again, some people wouldn't play a game if it was not for the carrot and revenue came in if people stayed subbed. Unfortunately, once the PS2 product is released, nothing prevents the same kind of nonsense to happen (i.e. choosing the terribly wrong but easy solution instead of fixing the problem's source).

[DOUBLEXBAUGH]

Said it before, PS1 wasn't a problem till BR40. Now PS2 is BR40, you just have to stay close to an equipment term. So out in a field fight you will be in your 1 man tank/plane, then indoors you will just need to run back to terms instead of running back to heal/repair. PS2 system = BR40.

[ringring]

There has been a few things announced that made me go "um". But, how can I really tell without playing it. It may be that some things are taken away but also some good things are added.

So, I'll wait to see before deciding.

PS:
Biggest question marks are: driver/gunning tanks and Gal as AMS.
PPS:
One-man army in ps1 isn't as great a problem as made out. While I could say BR40 gives too much I'd also say BR20 gives too little. Somewhere in the middle would be better.

[Mastachief]

I hate class systems in modern FPS game they are restrictive and have but UI's that slow things down.

This said i would say that the direction i have seen the PS2 team going down this class system will be more hybrid between favourites in ps1 and a little freeform but built into class to restrict the one man soldier mindset.

I kinda like the idea that should i play NC and be flying over a field of TR my speakers wont be filled with a begillion striker lock ons (ala PS1)

[LongBow]

The classes represent diffrent roles (not premade builds), the idea is you can swap between roles every time you die. (you won't have as much utility, but a medic is a medic!)

You can then (to my understanding) choose extra gadgets and other cool utilities to define your character.

I understand many people much prefer to cherry pick all the best things at once, but now real decitions have to be made.

To answer the op's fears directly ... you would arrive at this base - take your engi loadout and begin fortifing the area ... if the invation arrived you would head back inside and pull yuor cloaker load out (and be more effective at both).

the "class" system is not a traditional *choose your path at char creation* its just a (highly effective) way to stop a single player being a one man army.

[Qwan]

I am very open minded to the class type of tree, I love the old cert system and like the way you can mix it up. But having the class system wont be to bad. I mean back in the day if you needed a certain vehicle, and no one had the cert for it it was just a mater of going in and decertifying and spending it on the certs. With the class system if you need a certain weapon or vehicle you could just change classes and assuming you lvled up that class you now have access. It has a BF3 feel to it but hey look at BF3 its a winning system. I say lets try it out and hope it works for the best. I just hope it doesnt turn to a pay to win type of game with all this free to play talk.

[Qwan]

the "class" system is not a traditional *choose your path at char creation* its just a (highly effective) way to stop a single player being a one man army.

Hey whats wrong with the one man army. It was fun being self reliable :D

[LongBow]

Hey whats wrong with the one man army. It was fun being self reliable :D

you could bravely (and single handedly) defend an equipment terminal from one attacker at a time and hard counter each of them ... for the glory of the Supply term!

[Shogun]

engineers need custom freeform backpacks so badly!

i always played engineer or cloaker in ps1.

with a fixed backpack, a simple order like "mine the courtyard" will take a vast amount of time compared to freeform backpacks!
whenever i had to put up defences i switched to rexo and filled every available slot with those ace things. this left me unarmed, but i didn´t need any weapons while fortifying a base!

in ps2 i have to run back to a terminal every 10 seconds! and if engineers don´t get a deployable ammo dispenser like in tf2 that they can carry around it will even be worse, because outside a base there is not even a cloaked ams anywhere to refill! no outside a base engineers would have to follow a big fucking rocketmagnet-galaxy around to get refills.

[LongBow]

shogun not only do we not have a confirmation that the ACE is making a return, but we also have had no indication of the quantity of CE items an engi can carry.

[Knocky]

Holy hell is the sky falling in this thread! :rofl:

If you blow all you rage now....what will you have left for Beta....when it REALLY will matter?

[Shogun]

i am on the dark side!
my rage will never deplete!

the engineer post was just an example how a class system can limit players that don´t even try to be jack of all trades.
and we already got the confirmation that we will not be able to manage ammo amounts in our backpack!
every weapon gets its own ammo stack and that´s it.

i am sure this includes the engineer and his tools whatever they may be

[NCLynx]

You can still customize quite a bit. Before the battle ranks allowed you to have so many cert points that you could do w/e you wanted, you essentially chose a role (class) back then as well. Not that huge of a change.

Just sayin.

[EASyEightyEight]

People really still don't get it? Geez.

On the topic of CE, we don't know what the maximum deployment limit for each individual is. Could be 3 or 4 tops before the first item is deconstructed on placement of a fifth. The fact that inventories aren't in in their classical form means SOE can default an engineer to carry 12. It's just an integer they can adjust on the fly in the name of balance (and practicality.)

Like Duke said, Planetside 2 is NOT Planetside 1, and I personally doubt 1 is in the state it's in solely because of the BFR's everyone likes to attribute its downfall to. At some point for many people, the game just wasn't better nor worth the money over what's on the market, and that says something.

[Vash02]

These Schrodingers PS2 posts are getting a bit irritating. Can we all just assume that everyones posts are provisional until beta/dev confirmation? My posts are at least.

[Warborn]

I am outraged by these hypothetical scenarios! Pre-order cancelled! Blizzard is fucking us again!

[SteinB]

i am on the dark side!
my rage will never deplete!

the engineer post was just an example how a class system can limit players that don´t even try to be jack of all trades.
and we already got the confirmation that we will not be able to manage ammo amounts in our backpack!
every weapon gets its own ammo stack and that´s it.

i am sure this includes the engineer and his tools whatever they may be

You are overlooking the fact that a fixed inventory system doesn't have to have the same space limitations that a freeform one needs. With a freeform system you have to carefully balance how much space the player has available. With a class system restricting what items can be carried at one time they can set the ammo supply for each piece of equipment to a useful level and not worry about the old 12x9 dimensional limits. Also, with the sidegrade system they are developing, who is to say there won't be skills to increase a particular items ammo supply at the cost of something else?

[stordito]

we should remember that having the ability to spawn in specific locations (aka on squad leader) means that you already will be able to understand what situation your squad is and what you or your squad will need.
are they under heavy fire? dont spawn as Inf, but as heavy armour/medic.
The limit on inventory might be balanced by the fact that you spawn already in the field.
having multi purpose inventory was cool,but remember: a swiss knife is good for a lot of things but sucks in any of those.
I don't buy the "we want people to know what expect", to me is more about more teamwork than before,less lone wolfs sniping and having a cycler or double sniper rifle.
PS1 was already pretty good on cooperative teamplay but i never felt that i NEEDED other people around except if outnumbered,but that's another story.
Only time will tell if their choice will bring what expected.

[BloodySoul]

who is to say there won't be skills to increase a particular items ammo supply at the cost of something else?

That worries me a little bit... kinda sounds like the better you are the stronger you become. I mean, I think that its the nubbers that need handicaps. If I am going 50-4 I am pretty sure I don't need buffs or extra supplies to stay alive. Maybe have places where you can recharge ammo that aren't normal terminals. But I don't think giving good players better things will help any factors. (This is without the concept of lvls, higher levels should get more due to the hard work of getting that lvl.)

[Timealude]

who also says there wont be custom classes as well? im sure there will be presets but also im sure there will be a way to edit all the presets to suit your play style, aside from the glitch in ps1 where cloakers could carry bolt drivers.

[Figment]

Classes are going to be one of those things we're going to have to get used to, but there'll definitely be a lot of talk about this in beta. There's too much random speculation possible on how they'd be balanced, limited or otherwise restricted.

We don't even know if MAXes still have spawn timers or can be obtained at Galaxies Sunderers for instance. Need to know the rule specifics.

[cellinaire]

First of all, I hope im not beating the dead horse too much. I know there has been several topics on the matter, but as this is more of a question/feedback thread I thought I'd make a new one for it.

My favorite part of Planetside 1... being able to customize your character how you wanted, and play it as you wanted. Aka no "classes".

I loved playing as a cloaker and putting out a few mines/turrets where me and my outfit thought the invasion would take place. But seeing as Planetside 2 hammer this feature to the ground and adds classes instead, what good will that bring? Will it still be as fun as in Planetside 1? That to me, the cert system, is one of the unique things of planetside, that made it stand out of other shooters.

As I've understood it, they added the "class" system because of possible overpowered combinations. Like... jetpacking up to a hard accessible area and putting down turrets. But would that really be OP? Too me that feels more like tactical advantage. And he still have to trade points to be able to do that combination. He has to spend points to get a jetpack, he has to spend points to get the turrets right?

Or maybe, have a system that adds more like requirements. For example:

A cloaker/any soldier can put down basic mines and turrets, but to get the more heavier and meaty stuff, you have to be a engineer. Or... Maybe a standard soldier can have simple medic equipment. But specialized medic will have much more advanced equipment to heal faster.

I just hate to my favorite feature in planetside to be hammered down in planetside 2. That is the freedom of your character and the freedom of certs. To be able to customize my character to fit my play style. It worked perfectly fine in PS1, why change something that made Ps1 so special and different from other shooters. Feels like Planetside 2 is like Battlefield 3/CoD mix but a much larger scale. Not sure if I like that...

What good will come from "classes"?

Yeah, it's highly likely that you'll eventually be disappointed, but why write this even before playing in Beta?

[Marinealver]

I sort of liked having to specalize in a class in order to make yourself, but then again with the whole class anyone can change on the fly. Just wont have everything rolled up into one setting.

The later class would have been good if they spaced the certs out a little more. For example medic. Make a tier 1 which allows you to use medkits. teir 2 which used the med app and not untill tier 3 to rez people. By then you would have to dump 8 or 9 certs to be a full fledge medic. Thats 8 certs which is enough to burn a HA cert.

[basti]

I sort of liked having to specalize in a class in order to make yourself, but then again with the whole class anyone can change on the fly. Just wont have everything rolled up into one setting.

The later class would have been good if they spaced the certs out a little more. For example medic. Make a tier 1 which allows you to use medkits. teir 2 which used the med app and not untill tier 3 to rez people. By then you would have to dump 8 or 9 certs to be a full fledge medic. Thats 8 certs which is enough to burn a HA cert.

Clearly you dont understand the issue of the cert system.

More certs (new stuff) = People yelling for more cert points = devs add more BR = people stack the powerfull stuff = One man armys.

Planetsides cert system was broken, from the very beginning. It was a static system that worked up to BR20, showed massive issue with the addition of BR25 and the free rexo, and completly broke at the BR40 addition. Ways to fix? Two: Dont allow any cool stuff that may be stacked/put heavy restrictions on your ability to stack, taking away the whole point of the free loadout speccing, OR abadon the faked free crap alltogether and move for a class system, to allow cool stuff in the game while also having more control of who is capable of what. In addition to that, now its possible to add more BR and more stuff, even entire new classes, without the potential of someone just stacking the most powerful stuff he can find.

Dont get me wrong, i loved the BR25 days. I loved the ability to get exactly the stuff i wanted. But i hated those Corner Camping, From their Mossy hot dropping JH/MCG guys that also got a boomer, med and engi tool as well as a deci with them. Yes, you know who you are, jerks. I hate you! :p

edit: also, you get a medal for using the search function and necroing a thread with a useful post. <3

[MrBloodworth]

Planetsides cert system was broken, from the very beginning.

Negative. It was not until after they added more BR and more points that it broke. Also various Bundling and Cert cost adjustments.

[ArmedZealot]

Tribes: Ascend went from a free form inventory to a class based system. It hasn't hurt the game at all. The only people that whine about it are from Tribes 1 & 2 complaining that it isn't really Tribes.

The class system works. It works from a F2P perspective because it gives the player more incentive to upgrade and customize their favorite class. Stuff like skins and what not are easier to implement. Classes have their own array of weapons so you can still mix and match to add a bit of flavor to the class, and removing grid inventory gets rid of rifle tetris.

To those saying that PS1's system was broken because of too many cert points. There was bound to be more cert points added to the game. PS1's problem was lack of end game content, adding more cert points was how the devs sought to add more. Just like Everquest added more levels for every expansion pack.

[MrBloodworth]

There was bound to be more cert points added to the game.

Incorrect. It was done because people could not make a choice of what to take, and not take. Because they came from other games, where you can do everything with no reliance on others.

In the original system, you could add more items, and never change the amount of cert points. That was the point.

[AshOck]

Dont get me wrong, i loved the BR25 days. I loved the ability to get exactly the stuff i wanted. But i hated those Corner Camping, From their Mossy hot dropping JH/MCG guys that also got a boomer, med and engi tool as well as a deci with them. Yes, you know who you are, jerks. I hate you! :p


You forgot to add audio amp, surge and dark light :-)

As I understand it, the class system is about how everyone else perceives threats on the battlefield. I believe they even said as much in one of their earlier vids. IE if you see a rexo guy on the battlefield, you know exactly what weapons he has and what he can do to you.. and, of course, what to use as a hard counter to him.

I really don't understand people's hate for the whole "one man army" thing.
Having all the certs and a diverse inventory of weapons != win. You have to actually have the skill and experience to use them all effectively on the battlefield.

[MrBloodworth]

As I understand it, the class system is about how everyone else perceives threats on the battlefield. I believe they even said as much in one of their earlier vids. IE if you see a rexo guy on the battlefield, you know exactly what weapons he has and what he can do to you.. and, of course, what to use as a hard counter to him.


We knew that from the guns on the back/side.

[AshOck]

We knew that from the guns on the back/side.

Only if it was in a weapon slot? you couldn't see if he had a deci and a boomer in his inventory as far as I can remember.

[ArmedZealot]

Incorrect. It was done because people could not make a choice of what to take, and not take. Because they came from other games, where you can do everything with no reliance on others.

In the original system, you could add more items, and never change the amount of cert points. That was the point.


Except it wasn't or it wouldn't have been changed in PS1.

[MrBloodworth]

I assume you know how many developers were in the PS1 pot. The Design was dead after smoke jumper.

They put on people from EQ for Christ sake, Of course increased power became the focus.

[Malorn]

The root problem was that PS1's cert system, while awesome, did not scale. In the beginning it encouraged specialization because not everyone could do everything. As more potential certifications are introduced the only way to allow people to really use them without sacrificing their existing method of play is to expand the cert pool.

As the cert pool expands the player base becomes less-specialized as now we can do more stuff. While we might need to still specialize into the super-duper-ultra-advanced-hacking the majority of the playerbase used the expanded cert pool to become all-purpose soldiers complete with all the certs they need to handle any situation.

That turned Planetside from a great game where you can choose your own specializations into something where specialization didn't matter at all.

The class system is effectively the same as having certs with dependencies and limitations. It allows them to expand the roles over time and provide more specialization options without creating homogenized good-at-everything soldiers. It also allows them to add cool and powerful specialized abilities without worrying about players combining that ability with other powerful specialized abilities to create super soldiers. In this way they are much easier to balance and expanding on the certs and abilities scales very well into the future. Specialization remains relevant.

[TheMozFather]

Specializing in a specific role gives the individual a sense of importance.

[ArmedZealot]

I assume you know how many developers were in the PS1 pot. The Design was dead after smoke jumper.

They put on people from EQ for Christ sake, Of course increased power became the focus.

Increased power was always the focus. It was the business model that SOE was used to. MMO's from Planetsides age were all about the grind. Players came to expect that.

Now a system is put in place to stop that. That is what the class system is. Now vets want to go back and try again.

[MrBloodworth]

Increased power was always the focus.

No. Stop talking.

[Papscal]

Character classifications = restrictions. Its a loss of in game freedom. But hey every sequel or game remake gets dumbed down because developers all seem to believe that you cant just let a good thing be just that. Taking away decisions from the players never pans out.

[kaffis]

To preface, I'm fine with a class system. I think it adds options for the developers to more precisely balance exciting new features. But I'll play devil's advocate, here, because the cert system as originally designed wasn't unsustainable.

The root problem was that PS1's cert system, while awesome, did not scale. In the beginning it encouraged specialization because not everyone could do everything. As more potential certifications are introduced the only way to allow people to really use them without sacrificing their existing method of play is to expand the cert pool.
If you're introducing new potential certifications and nobody's willing to use them by sacrificing their existing method of play, the new stuff you're adding is just bad because it's superfluous. If it's useful, or contributes something meaningful or that caters to a legitimately unique playstyle, some people will drop other stuff to take it, and the system's not broken. If people aren't dropping stuff to take it, it's either underpowered, unnecessary, or the stuff they refuse to drop is overpowered/not properly valued cert-point-wise.

[ArmedZealot]

No. Stop talking.

Smokejumper brought in Core Combat.

Here buy this expansion for flails and switchblades! Here are our new weapons that make all other empire equivalent trash!

Yeah whatever you call "The Design" really existed....

[cellinaire]

My notion so far :

A bit of overestimation about what PS2 don't have that PS1 did have,

A bit of underestimation about what PS2 will add that PS1 didn't have....

We will see, though.