Higgles on certs and progression [Archive]

Roy Awesome

2012-01-24, 07:59 PM

Higby just hit us with some knowledge over on /r/planetside

http://redd.it/ouma7

We've got a couple different cert unlocking designs in the works currently, one, which we've talked about the most is the time-based unlock that functions similar (but not identically) to EvE. We also have a cert point system which allows for cert point generation when offline as well as through in game accomplishments. Both of these systems integrate battlerank in different ways.

In terms of class-based, yes, we're class-based. We don't restrict your class or force you to only earn certs for the class currently being played. You can go get a bunch of cert points by killing guys in a mosquito and spend them on perks for infiltrator weapons, etc.

It sounds like more play time = more progression, but offline training is still in. They are also iterating through a bunch of progression models right now, so this is all WIP information.

Warborn

2012-01-24, 08:10 PM

It will be nice to play the game and finally see how the cert system works.

Mastachief

2012-01-24, 08:23 PM

Thanks for the heads up. I don't frequent reddit that often.

SKYeXile

2012-01-24, 08:30 PM

Hamma

2012-01-24, 08:34 PM

Cool stuff sounds a bit more involved than we were expecting.

Vash02

2012-01-24, 08:39 PM

Hmmm I think people had assumed that the time based system meant: "Train cycler: 5 hours". but now it seems more like you earn a cert points at a steady rate and then you can speed that rate up by killing people? something like it knocks 2 minutes off everytime you kill a guy?

all very confuzzling.

Lonehunter

2012-01-24, 08:45 PM

SKYeXile

2012-01-24, 09:03 PM

While I don't think it would be good to spend 100% of your time as a cloaker and just keep lvling up MAX armor/weapons, I don't see a problem using common pool vehicles or weaponry to earn xp that you could spend in any class. But if all I do is knife people while cloaking, then that xp should just go towards cloaking

I think this system is looking better, it allows people to experiment more with other certs, also a bonus to veteran players who have spent all their time doing one thing can easily spend pooled points and tryout something new rather than having to grindout another tree.

ringring

2012-01-25, 06:37 AM

But, if you spend your cert points on one perk, can you change your mind later and uncert then cert something else.

I expect you can, but perhaps it will be a micropayment.

Figment

2012-01-25, 06:55 AM

From that description, sounds to me like there won't be a limitation beyond classes.

So basically you will get "BR40", with class restrictions only, eventually. Which means you can't get a definite advantage through cert points over another player. You might get one over another class, but when his rock dies to your paper, he is coming back with scissors after which you bring rock again.

So to deny people access to stuff, limiting their resources is the only way.

Hmr85

2012-01-25, 08:04 AM

Just a random thought. So I assume eventually if you play long enough you should have everything unlocked however long down the road. Sort of like BR40 now? or are we going to have to pick and choose are certs very very carefully.

Mod

2012-01-25, 08:16 AM

I think at this stage, we cannot answer that question for definite.

Lot of possibilities...

Figment

2012-01-25, 08:54 AM

Higby did say quite some time ago in some interview you could learn ALL skills eventually over a long period of time. He did not explicitly state if you could use them all, but I guess so.

Firefly

2012-01-25, 09:10 AM

"Higgles"? What the fuck? Are you a 14yr old girl?

FriendlyFire

2012-01-25, 09:29 AM

Higby did say quite some time ago in some interview you could learn ALL skills eventually over a long period of time. He did not explicitly state if you could use them all, but I guess so.

Using all of them and using all of them, at the same time, are two different things. PS2 will have a class system so we should never see the problems PS1 has with BR40s.

Hmr85

2012-01-25, 10:15 AM

I didn't mean use them all at once like PS1. I meant I could have it all unlocked later down the road if I put in the time. Same as Eve, you could eventually have all the skills unlocked if you trained for it. It was just going to take you 20 years.

Mastachief

2012-01-25, 10:33 AM

"Higgles"? What the fuck? Are you a 14yr old girl?

It is possible....

I would assume that after looking at the SOE interview regards the payment model they are going for in MMO's SOE will go for the constant development and addition to the game to drive more income provided it is an initial success that is.

So Higgles any more info on which way the team is leaning?

Baron

2012-01-25, 10:52 AM

Umm yea sounds like we'll be generating afew cert points or something per kill or support or stuff then then while offline they possibly generate at 1 per minute or so.

something like upgrading a weapon could cost like 100-1000 cert points.

Apparently this can also be sped up by spending resources as mentioned in previous articles.

Im not sure how the BR fully integrates with it, but from what iv herd some of the things would require a higher up battlerank to train or it was something like you can only train so many things per BR or something like that.

That's pretty accurate on how I see BR as well. the Devs mentioned that BR acted as a "cap" or glass ceiling on the cert/skill tree. An extreme example would be to prevent someone logging in on day one ..queue up certs/skills then come back in 6 months uber. So unlocks have two variables: 1) Cert Points, 2) BR requirement

Hamma

2012-01-25, 10:53 AM

Firefly, lots of folks including T-Ray have been calling him Higgles on Twitter and other places. So he didn't just make it up for this thread :p

AncientVanu

2012-01-25, 11:08 AM

Could someone please explain to the newcomer what exactly is that "offline training"? AI opponents maybe?

Vancha

2012-01-25, 11:10 AM

Could someone please explain to the newcomer what exactly is that "offline training"? AI opponents maybe?

It means you'll train skills while offline, like in EVE. Look up their system if you don't know it.

Mastachief

2012-01-25, 11:12 AM

Could someone please explain to the newcomer what exactly is that "offline training"? AI opponents maybe?

In a time based cert training it means that the countdown will continue even when you are offline

Figment

2012-01-25, 11:17 AM

Using all of them and using all of them, at the same time, are two different things. PS2 will have a class system so we should never see the problems PS1 has with BR40s.

Considering you are not locked into a class, but can change at your whim at an equip term or next respawn, yes you can use it all at all times when the need arrises.

So it takes a couple lives or a term switch. That's not exactly a huge restriction, now is it? Which means it'll eventually be EXACTLY like BR40. Since sure, you can't fit a MAX in a rexo, but if you can open a term you can become one instantly when you need one.

The problem with having access to all is not that you can use all at the same time, but that you can at all times access a counter to what you are facing. A fight in PlanetSide 1 nor 2 will last for hours. Anything you can use within that time span is important for the outcome of the fight. When you simply CANNOT use it permanently, or not use it during ONE LIFE, is completely and utterly different and matters lots!

Truth be told, I don't consider anyone extremely insightful if they discuss balance on the basis of a single lifetime and single encounter in a respawning game.

AncientVanu

2012-01-25, 11:19 AM

In a time based cert training it means that the countdown will continue even when you are offline

Actually the whole concept of "certs" evades me but maybe I have to dig deeper to understand it all. I've played BF and COD and know that kind of skills and weapons unlocking, but this seems like something completely different.

Roy Awesome

2012-01-25, 11:37 AM

"Higgles"? What the fuck? Are you a 14yr old girl?

I mean...his hair. I'll be a 14yr old girl for that hair in an instant.

Coreldan

2012-01-25, 11:41 AM

I wonder if his wife calls him Higgles in the bed.. Then again I guess not cos the wife is probably a Higgles herself.

Figment

2012-01-25, 11:45 AM

Actually the whole concept of "certs" evades me but maybe I have to dig deeper to understand it all. I've played BF and COD and know that kind of skills and weapons unlocking, but this seems like something completely different.

The certification system provided you with a limited number of points to spend on a certification tree. This allowed you to custom built your character by selecting groups of weaponry you were and were not allowed to handle. Higher up in the tree cost you more certpoints, which meant that you had to make choices to be a bit of a generalist, but not a specialist in much, or a specialist in several things and not a generalist.

This gave your character the freedom to set up your own custom classes, but these classes would not be able to cope with every specific situation. It meant you would typically only perform very specific roles as your certification did not allow you to work outside of them.

So for instance, you could go for piloting heavy aircraft, grab some heavy firepower like anti-vehicular and heavy assault, but then you'd have to give up your chance to get sniper rifles, advanced hacker or tank driver.

The difference with the new system is that you can pick a class that can cope with any specific situation, but can not use any and all combinations of the advantages you've unlocked in the cert tree at once. You can however over multiple classes: you can grab a light assault suit and a heavy tank, aircraft etc as long as you have the resources for it. But you could also go for being a sniper, infiltrator or MAX on the next life. In PS1, you did not have so much freedom to pick your gear upon next life untill you reached BR40.

In the new system, it sounds like you can be anything you want every life, but be restricted by the class' capabilities only.

Mastachief

2012-01-25, 11:51 AM

Actually the whole concept of "certs" evades me but maybe I have to dig deeper to understand it all. I've played BF and COD and know that kind of skills and weapons unlocking, but this seems like something completely different.

No problem.

In planetside 1 (Planetside) the weapons, vehicles, support tools and armours required you to have certifications to be able to equip/use them.

Levelling in planetside was achieved through kills / base captures and (later) support actions which you earn XP towards Battle Ranks (br). Upon on gaining battle ranks you would be awarded a certification point to spend on certifications. *

Now say you wanted to fly an aircraft called a mosquito you would need 3 of these certification point to spend on the Mosquito certification. Once spent you could then launch you mosquito from the relevant Air/vehicle terminal.

Now in planetside 2 they are looking at different methods for you to earn these abilities to say fly these aircraft, one of which is that (similar to the EVE:online system) you set a skill training and that skill training takes say 3 days to complete in the background now if you are online playing the game the skill will train at 1x speed however if you are offline the skill will now train at 0.5x.

This is pure speculation at this point there can be boost to training at say 1.5x speed etc the idea is to encourage people to play. The certification may require you to spend resources on lets call it a skillbook (to rob an eve idea) resources earn through combat etc.

*in planetside 1 not all Battle ranks yielded a certification point due to various reasons you can look up or start a thread in the planetside 1 section

FriendlyFire

2012-01-25, 12:20 PM

Considering you are not locked into a class, but can change at your whim at an equip term or next respawn, yes you can use it all at all times when the need arrises.

So it takes a couple lives or a term switch. That's not exactly a huge restriction, now is it? Which means it'll eventually be EXACTLY like BR40. Since sure, you can't fit a MAX in a rexo, but if you can open a term you can become one instantly when you need one.

The problem with having access to all is not that you can use all at the same time, but that you can at all times access a counter to what you are facing. A fight in PlanetSide 1 nor 2 will last for hours. Anything you can use within that time span is important for the outcome of the fight. When you simply CANNOT use it permanently, or not use it during ONE LIFE, is completely and utterly different and matters lots!

Truth be told, I don't consider anyone extremely insightful if they discuss balance on the basis of a single lifetime and single encounter in a respawning game.

I am fine with Paper beating Rock, and Rock beating Scissors, etc. Am also fine with Paper being the best at being Paper, etc.

Individual Players will not win a 100 vs 100 fight by switching classes every time they die.

Maybe we are saying the same thing (?!,) being locked in to a class (even for that spawn) allows players to only be good at that one class till they die or until they switch at a Term.

ThGlump

2012-01-25, 12:41 PM

Im expecting some sort of mix between unlocks and certs. You can unlock/train everything in some class but still use only limited set at a given time (selectable cert or equipment related). So even if you unlocked it all, you cant use it all at once.

Easily switching classes i see as a problem. Everyone will have access to everything, with no downside (after you train most from all). In ps1 those who had drivers certs pulled tanks etc, and those who didnt would be theirs gunners. In ps2 everyone will rather switch class so they can have their own tank, than to be someones gunner and use inferior gun.

Mastachief

2012-01-25, 12:57 PM

AncientVanu

2012-01-25, 02:27 PM

ringring

2012-01-25, 02:55 PM

Raymac

2012-01-25, 03:09 PM

Considering you are not locked into a class, but can change at your whim at an equip term or next respawn, yes you can use it all at all times when the need arrises.

So it takes a couple lives or a term switch. That's not exactly a huge restriction, now is it? Which means it'll eventually be EXACTLY like BR40. Since sure, you can't fit a MAX in a rexo, but if you can open a term you can become one instantly when you need one.

Truth be told, I don't consider anyone extremely insightful if they discuss balance on the basis of a single lifetime and single encounter in a respawning game.

Really? You make it sound like there will be equipment terminals and spawn points every 10 feet. We've all played this game so we all know that with the dynamic nature of the battlefield MUCH changes in the time that it takes to respawn or run back to an equipment terminal.

In 2 minutes, the threat that took you out may very well be gone to reload or even be destroyed. The fact that you can now equip yourself to counter the threat that took you out may be moot by the time you get back to where he was when you died.

Plus, that is even assuming that he is in the same place which we all know is highly unlikely. If you sit around in 1 spot for too long, somebody will always take you out, no matter what vehicle or weapon you have.

So, I don't really give a crap if you think I'm insightful or not, but there is a difference between being able to carry everything you need on you and having to switch loadouts at a terminal.

Figment

2012-01-25, 03:11 PM

Hey thank you Figment and Mastachief for the info. One question that is related to the leveling and skill unlocking, if I have to spend some points to unlock the Scythe, are there other skills of any particular significance for piloting? From what I've read we would be able to unlock and mount different weapons to the vehicles, but are there other skills of any use for the air vehicles? I guess such info is not available for PS2 yet, but how was it in PS1?

What Hillfort said (ringring), with one additional thing:

In PlanetSide we had these things called Implants, which were basically bionic, inherent upgrades of which you could have three installed in your character. These implants gave you particular benefits that enhanced your battlefield capabilities a bit. CoD used this concept and renamed them "perks". Difference with CoD is that implants used to have a warm up time of 30 seconds to a minute.

You could however exchange them freely whenever you had access to a Implant Terminal (like Certification Terminals, only found in sanctuary and Bio Laboratory facilities). Typically people didn't change implants a lot as they picked those that were most suited to their combat style.

Some were even quite pivotal and pretty much all infantry oriented, especially for infiltrators (cloakers). One of these made your knife slashes much stronger (Melee Boost), some kept you from being heard or caught by interlink radar and kept Artificial Intelligence turrets from spotting you (Sensor Shield) or put nearby running players without Sensor Shield on radar (Audio Amplifier). Then there's the zoom implant, which allowed you to zoom in much further, which of course can be useful for sniping. The only implant useful for vehicle users was Enhanced Targeting (shows Enemy health) really to help you with target selection.

Figment

2012-01-25, 03:15 PM

Really? You make it sound like there will be equipment terminals and spawn points every 10 feet. We've all played this game so we all know that with the dynamic nature of the battlefield MUCH changes in the time that it takes to respawn or run back to an equipment terminal.

In 2 minutes, the threat that took you out may very well be gone to reload or even be destroyed. The fact that you can now equip yourself to counter the threat that took you out may be moot by the time you get back to where he was when you died.

Plus, that is even assuming that he is in the same place which we all know is highly unlikely. If you sit around in 1 spot for too long, somebody will always take you out, no matter what vehicle or weapon you have.

So, I don't really give a crap if you think I'm insightful or not, but there is a difference between being able to carry everything you need on you and having to switch loadouts at a terminal.

So you are saying there's no difference between taking on a player with or without UniMAX certification? And you don't think (Uni)MAX use has increased dramatically ever since they became less costly to obtain (or completely free)?

And you are saying this has not upset balance and completely changed gameplay because players had more choice? Particularly in terms of using the heaviest weapons at all times?

And you are saying that if you are defending a position and the two of you don't have access to AV and you come across a BR40 who has both expert hack, engineering and MAX, that he can't repair/open a term and spawns, grab an AI MAX, kill the CC guys, run back downstairs to the term which is still open, get a HA/REK suit and resecure before you respawned and got back to the CC as a defender?

Note that this scenario at BR20 was often not possible, if not extremely unlikely on your own, whereas today it is very common in PS. It made it a lot harder for people who have no access to a term to compete with people who do and the question is whether that is fair, because having access to a term in the first place is already a major advantage if the other does not.

Also, you don't always have a choice about where to sit. If you have to defend a specific spot like the CC, you can't just go away, certainly not with a BR40 around who only needs a few seconds to resec. If they had no hacking certs, you'd be facing pyjamas respawning with your single life and you'd be able to leave the CC for just under a minute. BIG BIG BIG difference which you either don't understand or deliberately ignore because you don't care. Note that 'not caring' is not an argument for bad gameplay, 'not caring' means you should not bother with responding.

Reeeaaaaallly now? Please try to become more insightful, it helps.

Raymac

2012-01-25, 03:17 PM

So you are saying there's no difference between taking on a player with or without UniMAX certification? And you don't think (Uni)MAX use has increased dramatically ever since they became less costly to obtain (or completely free)?

Reeeaaaaallly now?

You're changing the subject. (you do that alot) Your arguement has no bearing on the subject because you can't be AA/AV/AI Max all at once. Really.

Try again.

Figment

2012-01-25, 03:28 PM

You're changing the subject. (you do that alot) Your arguement has no bearing on the subject because you can't be AA/AV/AI Max all at once. Really.

Try again.

*sigh* Sometimes you get tired of explaining things 300 times to simpletons. This is one of those moments.

Having it at once has never been the issue, but people like you can't see beyond that most simplistic basics of combat. Having it in multiple lives or classes within one lifetime IS.

If you respawn you are still in the same fight. Therefore you have access to the same weapons in the same timespan of the fight. No not all at once, you can also only pull the trigger on one weapon at a time, but that doesn't mean you can't carry more than one either!

But if that is the extend of your argument, just leave me alone and go bother someone who wants to listen to your dribble.

EDIT: Consider this Raymac, if you can respawn and the other cannot, he is not fighting just you, but ALL your incarnations. If you can change freely to whatever rock for his scissors, you will ALWAYS have the advantage. If you can change gear upon spotting his scissors and retreat to become rock, he'll never have a chance to get to you with his scissors. Besides, it is very likely that people will use "HEAVY ROCK" en mass when encountering "bread knife". Just because they have access to it and they don't need "paper tissue" just yet: they can change to "paper tissue" after the rock bit and only when absolutely needed - meaning you'll never need to be at a disadvantage against "bread knife". That is not a rock-paper-scissors anymore, it's a simple scissors vs rock or heavy rock.

Scissors will not win the encounter, even if you initially arrived as paper.

If however, you only have access to "paper", "tissue paper" or "scissors", you will either become more reliant on people with "rock", or you'll have to work on more even footing, or hell, at a disadvantage. if you don't comprehend the difference just yet, or think it's a minimal difference, stop responding. Please, because you'll never get my argument and you'd save us both a lot of headaches.

Raymac

2012-01-25, 03:40 PM

*sigh* Sometimes you get tired of explaining things 300 times to simpletons. This is one of those moments.

Having it at once has never been the issue. Having it in multiple lives or classes within one lifetime IS.

If you respawn you are still in the same fight. Therefore you have access to the same weapons in the same timespan of the fight. No not all at once, you can also only pull the trigger on one weapon at a time, but that doesn't mean you can't carry more than one either!

But if that is the extend of your argument, just leave me alone and go bother someone who wants to listen to your dribble.

Let me respond to your ridiculous ego in my feeble simpleton language: fuck you.

Now, I did understand the point you were making before that there is no difference between being able to do everything over mulitple lives and during the same life. So that is the point I responded to and debunked.

As for the issue of simply being able to do everything over the span of mutiple lives, the reponse is rather simple. If it is a tiny 5v5 fight, then yes, it can turn into a simple game of rock, paper, scissors where the loadout can give the edge when skill is similar. However, even in PS1 (and it sounds like PS2 will support larger battles) in an 80v80 fight, the individual loadout of 1 person begins to mean very little due to the huge amounts of fighting and dying happening each second.

In larger battles, you may not even see the same player twice in an hour. So considering the tiny 5v5 battles are extremely rare and not the foundation of Planetside, building the game around that would be stupid.

So, TL;DR Your point is moot because of the sheer number of players per battle.

Figment

2012-01-25, 03:41 PM

You never debunked it, you ignored it.

The rest of your argument is absolute bull, unless you are a zergling, which I suppose makes sense. Try running with a resec team once in your life. The skills, lives and equipment of ONE character makes all the difference in EVERY battle. There are literally hundreds of zerg fights I've single handedly turned around thanks to my equipment and getting it in the right spot at the right time over the course of a couple lives and thanks to being able to switch to weapons and support tools others had no access to.

And the other way around, we've won situations as a team where I alone (having no anti-MAX stuff) would not have gotten out on top. JUST ONE MAX can mean all the difference if you don't have any form of AV. He can stall, deny you access to certain areas or just have the right short TTK at the right time to make your respawn problematic logistically (timers run out on the CC of bases or LLUs). If you don't have access to the most obvious counter, you have to find workarounds. If PS1 was class based, I'd just have pulled an AV MAX every time I came across an AI MAX in my infil suit. Then switched back to my infil suit and done my thing.

EDIT: You may think me arrogant, but sometimes that is justified. Elitist? Maybe. Snobbish? Maybe. Ego? Damn right. I'm quite aware I go about three times as far in thinking as others do. Is it more social to make people like you think they are argueing on equal footing? Sure, all it gets is annoyance if your level of reasoning is a lot deeper than that of the opposition.

I'm sure there are people who think a Galaxy Gunship type vehicle is great, even if it is completely unbalanced outside of a fully occupied SOI, because they don't get into situations where the GG is completely out of whack balance wise. There were people who claimed that the GG was fine, because "everyone in the entire SOI would be firing at it, so there's dozens if not a hundred guns on it at once", never mind that a lot of people worked in vehicle teams of three to ten and had no chance to survive such an encounter in the open field, rather than a fully fortified base (in which they'd still get targeted and would die within seconds).

Your arguments are on the same level: ignorant, narrowminded and naive, not looking at more than one situation or scenario, even when admitting there are more situations, you don't find them relevant because you don't encounter them personally or you try to trivialise them so you don't have ot think about it. You don't think about the affects on other players. You don't think about abuse. Sorry if I don't have much sympathy or respect for that sort of ignorance while you are acting as quite the know it all yourself.

FriendlyFire

2012-01-25, 03:47 PM

Hi,
I make everything sound like a 1v1 fight.

Sincerely,
Figment

I edited this for you.

PS2 is not a 1v1 game.

Raymac

2012-01-25, 03:47 PM

You never debunked it, you ignored it.

The rest of your argument is absolute bull, unless you are a zergling, which I suppose makes sense.

:lol: I didn't ignore shit. Go back and re-read my response to your premise of multiple lives loadout = single life loudout. And make sure yuo read the post of yours I quoted because you may have forgotten what you said.

As for the rest of post being bull, if that is the best you've got, you are nowhere near as smart as you think. Planetside has always been about massive battles. You can't ignore that and just say massive battles are bull.

sylphaen

2012-01-25, 03:55 PM

well, maybe it will indeed feel like BR40... Or maybe it will cost so much in resources to change class, while alive, 10 times in a row that it may not be worth it.

The risk of broken gameplay is there but it will all depend on how balance is implemented in the end.

Wait & see...
:shrug:

Figment

2012-01-25, 04:05 PM

I edited this for you.

PS2 is not a 1v1 game.

No shit Watson. But not at all an accurate edit because it's not about 1 vs 1, it's about 1 person in a string of person lives in the context of a lot of people with a lot of strings of life. It's about what a couple people can do in the long run. Raymac is worse than a Republican, he thinks in 2-5 minutes timespan, where at least a Republican thinks of the period till the next elections. How about you think of some longer periods of time? A lot of things can happen within 20 minutes to three hours and ANY AND ALL THINGS AVAILABLE TO YOU AND OTHERS WITHIN THIS TIME SPAN matters for the outcome of the fight.

Basically, Raymac thinks in a battle, I think in a war.

How is this evaluation for you: Anyone you encounter is everyone else, according to Raymac, because it doesn't matter who you encounter if you encounter someone. BECAUSE EVERYONE IS AT ALL TIMES PRESENT.

No, they're not. A group of individuals you are fighting does not necessarily have all certs. It would be wrong to both assume they do and then to say "well the group as a whole has access to everything, so why not give every individual access to everything" would be mindblowingly stupid and simplistic. This is what Raymac ultimately says though - you as well?

And Raymac, you never did. You didn't counter anything because you've always been talking from your own narrowminded framework of one life one weapon. Which is still utterly simplistic. As long as you are debating about the weapons you can use one at a time, you have no place in this debate.

Raymac

2012-01-25, 04:17 PM

Wow. The douchey-ness has reached epic proportions and gone far beyond the point being discussed. Figment, you need to chill out.

EDIT: I'm just going to leave it at that since the last post was filled with nothing but insulting personal attacks and classic strawman fallicies where you literally put words in my mouth and then tear them apart. I stand by what I've said in this thread and will leave it at that.

Figment

2012-01-25, 04:34 PM

Can't chill out due to frustration as long as you have no clue what the point that's being discussed is.

You somehow can't see that you are using a completely different (worse, to me completely irrational too) frame of reference.

You and others have said things about assumptions, at least I wasn't basing my arguments on blatant lies. Around 80% of my PS experience is about engaging enemies in low pop situations, either on offensive or defensive. In the remaining situations I'm breaking zerg stalemates on my own, by sabotage, capturing towers, taking out AMSes and placing routers. Now, I gave up a lot to be able to do that, but it means that not everyone goes out of their way to blow up gens all the time, simply because they don't have the tools for it and that's a good thing.

You stating that situations where the equipment one person has access to is irrelevant and stating that low pop situations hardly ever happen is the biggest piece of ignorance and therefore bull I've seen in years. These situations happen continuously on and off of zerged continents. Not having access to equipment within a life time and over diverse lifetimes makes a ton of difference.

Not having access to CE or AV EVER, means for instance you won't ever blow the generator on your own. The mere notion of having CE or AV means you can. Everyone having an infil suit and CE on top of that makes it a far more likely occurance that someone with an infil suit is present and would go down and blow up a gen. It makes a ton of difference who is present at a fight.

I've seen situations where in a squad of 9 people, nobody but one (who was afk) had advanced hacking as they were all specced in engi, medic and mossie/reaver and they had to run an LLU on foot as they could not get a vehicle locally, until I drove over with ATV and got a Deliverer out (since I have no buggies and since the base was already hacked, nobody could get a Skyguard out anymore as tech link was broken - which meant Deli was a better choice than Harasser and I was the only one with access to GT).

Having to make such choices is incredibly important to what happens in game. Be it in low pop, high pop or elsewhere, individuality makes people important. Everyone being a generalist makes everyone meh and makes sure nobody is ever faced in a situations where they have to make due with what they got.

Not having to make due means people will fall into default mode much sooner, everything will be far more similar in setup and incentives to use imagination for both situation and creating new tactics and strategies is lost because you can always default to using the heaviest thing you got. And since everyone would have access to that, that will happen continuously.

It is utterly narrowminded to say it doesn't matter (much) and is fine. Everything, and I mean EVERYTHING changes (and from my perspective, for the worse) when everyone has near unlimited access to everything. Interdependency, strategies, mixing, everything becomes more plain, more boring, less fun and varied.

Figment

2012-01-25, 04:44 PM

You're changing the subject. (you do that alot) Your arguement has no bearing on the subject because you can't be AA/AV/AI Max all at once. Really.

Sure sure. You never talk from a one life one weapon perspective. No sirree, I'm the one who is putting narrowminded words in your mouth. :rolleyes:

Or how about this one:

Really? You make it sound like there will be equipment terminals and spawn points every 10 feet. We've all played this game so we all know that with the dynamic nature of the battlefield MUCH changes in the time that it takes to respawn or run back to an equipment terminal.

In 2 minutes, the threat that took you out may very well be gone to reload or even be destroyed. The fact that you can now equip yourself to counter the threat that took you out may be moot by the time you get back to where he was when you died.

Plus, that is even assuming that he is in the same place which we all know is highly unlikely. If you sit around in 1 spot for too long, somebody will always take you out, no matter what vehicle or weapon you have.

So, I don't really give a crap if you think I'm insightful or not, but there is a difference between being able to carry everything you need on you and having to switch loadouts at a terminal.

Again with the narrowmindedness.

You dismissing and ignoring any other argument about an engagement taking some time longer by pretending that in two minutes everything has already changed at all times and is therefore "moot". Bullox. IF in those two minutes you can change to a class with say expert hacking, that's completely different from if you can't change to a class with expert hacking, AT ALL.

But you won't acknowledge that at all. No, you narrowmindedly assume there'll be someone present who got that anyway. Because you assume it does not matter if you meet the same person in a variety of suits, because it might as well have been someone different. Well it isn't, it's the same person who respawned or changed gear, who would otherwise have been another class that could be easier to take out. That's a major fault with your argument and you are either too blind to see that, or simply won't admit it because it'd ruin your entire argument. And it does.

You also complain about putting words in your mouth, how about you pretending that my argumentation is only valid if you have a recert term every ten meters? You got plenty of time in engagements like PS to switch gear, you often have whole minutes to do so, even in 15 vs 15 situations and switching upon death is instant, whereas your opponent probably has not changed gear at all - at most repaired and healed.

You are clearly not part of a resec team, since you'd know better.

Raymac

2012-01-25, 04:53 PM

First, the game is an mmo and primarily focused on larger battles.
Second, yes, you are right that smaller skirmishes on the outskirts of the major battles are common and important. I've done tons of rapid response team stuff.

But the point is, even on those smaller skirmishes, they don't happen in an isolated test tube arenas. People come and go. Objectives change. All of this I'm sure you are well aware of. In fact, the smaller skirmishes are quicker and more dynamic than the larger battles since troop numbers have a much more noticable effect.

You seem to say that it is a problem that a player can switch to a needed role if there is not a person handily available for that role. I see that as a positive. To use an example or 2, who here likes spamming "Looking for healer" in an rpg, or who loved not being able to enter a base because nobody had a REK?

If somebody can take a couple minutes to run to a terminal and fill a needed role, I see that as a positive. It will still be better if you show up prepared with a well rounded group so you don't need to spend those few minutes as that person makes the round trip. Like I said, the fights are even more dynamic in the smaller skirmishes. It will be way better to have a medic with you than to wait for somebody to run to a terminal, switch to medic, and run back. By then everyone might be dead. But at least you don't need to spam on command chat "Need a medic at Dagda!"

And thanks for toning down the personal insults. If you are as smart as you think you are, then you'll know they simply distract from the topic and make you look petty.

Raymac

2012-01-25, 05:08 PM

Sure sure. You never talk from a one life one weapon perspective. No sirree, I'm the one who is putting narrowminded words in your mouth. :rolleyes:

Since you are being dickish about it repeatedly, let me simply remind you to the point I was responding to back in the beginning of the conversation.

Considering you are not locked into a class, but can change at your whim at an equip term or next respawn, yes you can use it all at all times when the need arrises.

I was simply pointing out that there is a difference between being able to switch loadouts at a terminal and having all the equipment you need already on you. And the difference is the time it takes to go to an available terminal and back or respawn and return which is a sizable difference in time than a simple hot swap. That was the point I was addressing at the time.

Figment

2012-01-25, 05:14 PM

But neither is a significant or even relevant time constraint in contrast to NOT carrying it, ever, at all.

Roy Awesome

2012-01-25, 05:31 PM

:popcorn:

Raymac

2012-01-25, 05:36 PM

But neither is a significant or even relevant time constraint in contrast to NOT carrying it, ever, at all.

Well in comaprison to never, then yes the time constraint is quite a bit different. However, I think never having access to it is a worse evil than having it be minutes away. In fact it makes it far easier to organize a well rounded group for a spec ops when people can switch to a needed role than having to look for someone or call a friend to log on to fill that role.

For example, you are loading up a Galaxy and you realize nobody is a medic, "Can someone switch to a medic please? Great thanks."
Is better than "Is anybody here a medic? Nobody? Well does anybody know a medic? OK we'll wait for him to get here....anybody know any good jokes while we sit here for 10 minutes?"

Figment

2012-01-25, 05:40 PM

Why does it have to be easier? If there are as many people as you claim there are in these fights, why do you need everyone to have it if one is enough? And what's wrong with making due without a medic?

To me, your argument smells a bit of 'too lazy to re-organize/re-cert myself' and perhaps even a bit anti-challenge. Why should you at all times be able to get the optimum (class) counter? And does this not reduce variety in gameplay significantly?

Raymac

2012-01-25, 05:43 PM

I think you can answer your own questions there.

Figment

2012-01-25, 05:45 PM

Laziness and short attentionspan, perhaps some entitlement to being able to win, is the answer then.

I don't like the answer, can I have another?

Scrima

2012-01-25, 05:46 PM

I just have one question related "recerting." I know it has been said that you will not be allowed to "recert," so I wonder about the progression through the trees. I can see it going two ways, and I will illustrate with examples using cert "points" it takes to unlock something.

Example 1:
First cert on character-1 pt
Next cert-2 pts
Next cert-4 pts
Next cert-8 pts
etc... so if I take infil weapons for the first three certs, then decide to get a mossie cert, that mossie cert will cost 8 pts. I could see this leading to people wanting to build a "infil" character, a "commander" character, etc. This would be akin to people playing a MMORPG where you get 1 point every level to put into talents, but each level takes longer and longer to get so it is tough to do anything but specialize.

OR

Example 2:
First cert on tree-1 pt
Next cert on same tree-2 pts
Next cert on same tree-4 pts
First cert on another tree-1 pt
etc...

In example 2 I can see no reason to roll another character unless it is for a different faction, because if you decide you want to start something new you are essentially starting from ground zero, just with some extra certs in a different tree.

I can see why in both examples one could want to recert ("but I spent 1000 points going up the mossie tree, I wish I could just transfer those all over to MAXes"), but I would honestly prefer example 2 because it keeps people from flipping all over the place with high-level gear.

Raymac

2012-01-25, 05:47 PM

Laziness and short attentionspan, perhaps some entitlement to being able to win, is the answer then.

I don't like the answer, can I have another?

Fun.

SKYeXile

2012-01-25, 05:50 PM

Given that offline points are probably not accumulated per character, but per account i dont see the point in having an alt, unless its on another account.

Mastachief

2012-01-25, 05:53 PM

as its completely free to play there is nothing to stop you having multiple accounts

NewSith

2012-01-25, 05:55 PM

While I don't think it would be good to spend 100% of your time as a cloaker and just keep lvling up MAX armor/weapons, I don't see a problem using common pool vehicles or weaponry to earn xp that you could spend in any class. But if all I do is knife people while cloaking, then that xp should just go towards cloaking

^This caught my eye...

So what if I don't wanna play sniper in indoor assault?

Adding no restrictions for leveling is rather reasonable, some situations will simply not favor using certain classes. And if you restrict levelling to active classes, than people will simply use THEIR class in situations for DIFFERENT class. As in - medics driving tanks, snipers camping backdoors from outside to within, light assaults camping from a hill, etc...

ThGlump

2012-01-25, 06:01 PM

Im going with example 2. They have classes and want us to use those classes. So they will encourage it. Rather than wait a month to get 1000certs to make your best class a little better, you could try other class and progress in it next day. In that month youll have 2 decent working classes, instead of one slightly better. Thats their target.
If i have choose to spend month worth "grind" on 1 cert i would never use it for new class if i didnt maxed one before. Example1 discourages use of classes.

There is no reason for alts. Classes and ability to learn everything make them pointless.

Figment

2012-01-25, 06:25 PM

Fun.

Now there's a well defined reason. :rolleyes:

Good job on attempting to monopolise "fun" though (which has nothing to do with challenge, or satisfaction of pulling off something under slightly harder conditions, apparently? Nor with incentives to try new things, thinking of new strategies as you have to make due with what you got instead of the straightforward gear switcharoo).

Note, our team hardly used advanced medics, we didn't use MAXes, I didn't use HA or AV. We made due with what we had and came out on top without taking the easy route and it felt good. Not just because we didn't want to, but also because we wern't in a position to - which we actually liked, because it meant we could find out and exploit someone else's weaknesses as well and turn our disadvantage to our advantage. This is part of 'skilled gameplay'. What you describe is pretty much 'zerg' attitude, where you don't need or want to take the time to plan far ahead.

Why do you think recert timers used to be 24 hours?

Raymac

2012-01-25, 06:33 PM

Now there's a well defined reason. :rolleyes:

Good job on attempting to monopolise "fun" though (which has nothing to do with challenge, or satisfaction of pulling off something under slightly harder conditions, apparently?).

You'll excuse me if I don't rely on you as an expert for what is fun. I tend to find people that relish in being condescending aren't generally fun people.

Figment

2012-01-25, 06:40 PM

You'll excuse me if I don't rely on you as an expert for what is fun. I tend to find people that relish in being condescending aren't generally fun people.

No, I was hated throughout the empires for my gentleman rules, sportsmanship, fair gameplay and (sensible) targeting, imaginative plans, coordinating multiple outfits, ballsy execution and risks and general lack of abusing tools like MAX units or farming bases. Not to mention jokes, everyone hated my jokes and therefore my friendslist didn't get far over a couple hundred, nobody ever invited me to outfits more than a couple times before giving up and certainly did I never lead or run platoons of outfits other than my own on a regular basis as it was never fun to work with me. :rolleyes:

I dunno, you seem to be an excellent judge of character. Ask Werner folks.

Raymac

2012-01-25, 06:49 PM

Hey, I never said you were a bad person. Just not the first person I would invite on a crazy Vegas trip. For example, you're not a fan of maxes, but many people find them fun. But I think we've gotten way off topic.

NewSith

2012-01-25, 06:59 PM

No, I was hated throughout the empires for my gentleman rules, sportsmanship, fair gameplay and (sensible) targeting, imaginative plans, coordinating multiple outfits, ballsy execution and risks and general lack of abusing tools like MAX units or farming bases.

Excuse me, Fig, but look what you're doing now... You managed to start holywars in 2 threads now. STOP.

Hamma

2012-01-25, 07:19 PM

Yes Figment, please tone it down. There is a point when you must just agree to disagree on a topic and stop tearing at people as a response.

Figment

2012-01-25, 07:45 PM

Excuse me, Fig, but look what you're doing now... You managed to start holywars in 2 threads now. STOP.

Meh, if people ask for it, they can have one.

Raymac, MAXes (akin to those in PS1) are fine and can be fun to fight with or against, in small, controlled numbers. In larger numbers they become far too overwhelming to be fun to play against.

Not controlling the numbers is a recipe for disaster. You can tell that post-BR40 change, a lot of people starting to hate on MAXes much, much more than before. Just because there were so many around: not only could more people afford them, thus using them for the occasional use more often than before. More people also used them as default and last resort indoor class, en mass, at the beginning of the battle.

Being able to switch to match whatever the other is throwing at you will always result in an arms race to the heaviest thing available and a lot of people will skip the intermediate steps and go nuclear immediately. Why? Because people will start to expect other people to use the heaviest available and thus them having to bring it as well. This annoyed people who did not use heavy stuff and forced more uniformity in cert selection in order to just be able to compete. The result? With more certs available to all, far less variety.

Is that fun? The same type of enemies over and over again? Being outnumbered and overwhelmed constantly in small holds by a horde of MAXes, people who always had Reavers to find and kill your AMS, engineering to rep terms, always had Expert hack to open both friendly and enemy terms, place CE everywhere and once you lose CC once, it's over before you can respawn, let alone get back to CC. Things that never happened on this frequency before BR40, because you could hold of a horde of enemies with skill as not all used these heaviest of weapons and because you could single out the most important enemies to stall them, keep your respawn point alive and make it back into the CC on time. Now you need a much larger crew, where often the opposite becomes applicable: can't get them out with a smaller resec crew, because they have too much firepower and revive too often. Target prioritisation again becomes pointless.

This from both directions results in far more blunt, straightforward combat where all that matters is firepower and that's frankly utterly boring. It even makes people want to kill gens, even tower spawns and equip terms more frequently as well.

This is a PvP game. Don't forget that everyone must have fun, not just the side that is winning, not just the side with or without equip term. Not just big groups, not just small groups. The other side must feel they had a (fair) chance and a fun (fair) fight as well.

This is for instance why I arranged a gentleman's agreement against cave spawncamping within spawns on Werner. At first with ROx and some NC outfits, later with a lot more groups. It made cave fights a lot more enjoyable, until new groups of TR started using Mosquitos and Reavers en mass and some started spawncamping again against minor enemy pops. What happened next? People stopped going to cave fights altogether and that wasn't 'fun' for anyone. Restrictions and rules, even if subjectively imposed by and on yourself, can have very beneficial effects on gameplay experience. Even more so if they are sensibly imposed from above.

Having it easy reduces satisfaction and reduces the enemy's incentive to give you a good fight, as they'll be forced to go to the extreme with sheer brute force as there is no other way to combat a suiss army knife.

Outwitting, outmaneuvring and outplaying an enemy on the other hand - especially as an underdog, but not too big an underdog where you feel powerless - is greatly satisfying and creates more mutual respect between players.

That is my point of view anyway.

Raymac

2012-01-25, 08:05 PM

Meh. I always thought Max Crash Teams, or massive armor columns, or huge air squadrons were fun to fight with and against. But to each their own.

Figment

2012-01-25, 08:22 PM

Once in a while and only when you have the numbers to try to fight it can a MAX crash be fun. You don't want a MAX crash on say the gen every three minutes though, now would you? It'd become boring and predictable. Scale is fine and fun 'in zerg', as you have the friendly numbers to fight and match it, 'out of zerg' it can be very frustrating and annoying. Sure it can be excillerating, but I've seen many MAX crashes (with pshield) on single or small groups of players where one to five guys could have sufficed in a battle of five, six minutes. Which would have likely been fun and challenging for all, rather than a walkover that's over in 10 seconds and feeling like a waste of time on both accounts. Consider that a lot of outfits are smallish spec ops teams. We're not all multi-squad zergfits that can deal with large crowds with heavy endurance.

Also, as a fight is over before you could say "hi", it means it also reduces social interaction between enemies. Met a lot of people in these smallish fights, some sporty rivalries, but also a lot of later outfit mates.

You can't balance this game on the assumption everyone will have crews of fifty or more people at their disposal at all times. Thirty is about the maximum you can coordinate and communicate with fast as a group, beyond that it becomes more coordination between groupleaders and those may have different ideas for their group. You often saw that platoons of one outfit split up their teamspeak per squad of ten, to make it easier to manage. Small crews are easier to manage and more intimate. Hence why a lot of people prefer this and it is likely people will attempt holds in groups of five to ten. It is possible that PS2 requires you to bring more, could be that the mission system suffices. Not sure yet about that though.

Requiring a large crew also makes it far less likely you can muster the troops for some objective you've established, let alone get there undetected. Takes longer to setup and you have a larger profile, more people increases the chance of mistakes that give you away (hot spots, early hacks, spawns or gen down in PS1). Drawing people out of a zerg fight to aid you on the far side of the continent is also quite difficult, especially when they may not see the direct benefit.

Raymac

2012-01-25, 08:33 PM

Well yeah, nobody likes getting their ass kicked. However, I looked at those situations and saw it as the smaller force did their job by acting as a diversion and a resource drain against the other empire. Because if they had to take you out with vastly superior numbers then those same troops were not on the front lines where they should be which opens the road for your own empire to make progress. Many times that would make the difference in those huge stalemate battles. So the smaller group may have lost their particular battle, but their action helped their empire win the war so to speak.

Baron

2012-01-25, 09:21 PM

are we comparing epeens? mine is only this big 8=D

:(

super pretendo

2012-01-25, 10:32 PM

I agree with figment, players being forced to make grand-strategic decisions with a tradeoff makes gameplay fun and meaningful and makes encounters unique. I really hope they look at this again. Maybe make the cooldown 10 or 6 hours.

Madlaps

2012-01-25, 11:46 PM

Wow, hated throughout the empires...really Figment?

How bout no one really gave a shit, love your posts.. Prime display of asshattery at it's finest. Get over yourself son.

Figment

2012-01-26, 08:03 AM

Wow, hated throughout the empires...really Figment?

Yeah, that's why I was able to get a few hundred people from multiple empires together in Sunderers for a Desolation race event. So much hate. I'm really evil, you know that, right? I also eat babies after mocking them and stealing their candy. :evil:

...You do recognise sarcasm when you see it, don't you?

Raymac

2012-01-26, 12:25 PM

FriendlyFire

2012-01-26, 12:45 PM

Politicians are great at rallying alot of people together too. It doesn't mean they aren't complete d-bags. It's always much better to have a civil debate with you when you tone down the personal attacks and stick to the topic. Obviously we disagree on alot about this particular thread but common ground can be found and points can be made without the ad hominum crap.

You do realize he is going to reply with a post, so long your eyes will bleed? He cannot have a conversation on the topic, he will come back and attack your post.

With what we know so far I think the progression system will be great.

Atheosim

2012-01-26, 02:32 PM

I heard somewhere (in this thread perhaps?) that it could take a full year to fully unlock a cert tree. Advancing in BR notwithstanding, does that full year involve a say, 20 hour per week play schedule? Or does that year only involve advancing in BR, logging off, waiting for all unlocked certs to train, advancing again, waiting again, ad ~infinitum?

I think a year of semi-rigorous playing is much too long to advance a single cert tree..

FriendlyFire

2012-01-26, 02:50 PM

sylphaen

2012-01-26, 02:58 PM

Yes, I think they will have some kind of parallel system where they will be able to stall progression of skills at a rate SOE can control in order to prevent some people from skilling up too fast (and getting bored once they reach the cap as they suddenly realize they are XP/Levelling whores :doh:).

The non time-based stuff will likely be based on how often you play and how fast you accrue skillpoints.

Either way, it will take time to reach the top. Once too many people do, new content to level will be introduced.

At least, that's how I see things being done...

Edit: oh yah ! And a 3rd limit, in the lines of some merit-based prerequisites (e.g.: Vulture in PS1), could also be set in order to slow down your access to cool equipment. Or at least make it more "challenging".

Vash02

2012-01-26, 03:11 PM

Graywolves

2012-01-26, 03:21 PM

I understand the want to have the casual players keep up with the insomniacs but I will miss the "I slaughtered hundreds of my foes to afford this weapon, I earned it." feeling. Now it will feel like "I waited a long ass time for this gun".

I'm going to miss getting hate tells from killing a BFR when the pilot was 1 kill short of unlocking the flight varient.

Figment

2012-01-27, 03:55 AM

You do realize he is going to reply with a post, so long your eyes will bleed? He cannot have a conversation on the topic, he will come back and attack your post.

So a lengthy post is not a conversation? Oh and I attack by default? I do rip up other people's arguments to pieces, yes, but that's because it's not a good argument so it can be done. That is part of a debate. Now, I see where the guy is coming from, but it is IMO a really shortsighted argument. Simplistic and not very in depth, or without understanding the actual issue. And in some cases, yes, I'll point that out if a person does that repeatedly and I'll go as far to use words that border insults. But some people think being called a hypocrite is an insult too, so meh.

And this or calling me a douche(bag) - whether or not deservedly - is not an ad hominem either? I love you. Hugs? Cuddles?