How do we backhack now? Worries.

[NewSith]

SS of the galaxy size comparison made me think about possibility of spec ops in the future game.

Here are my worries:

Stage 1:

The only mobile spawn point we know at the moment is the Galaxy. But with its size, Gal is easy to spot, meaning there's no point in even trying to use it for backhacks. That leaves us with the option to spawn on high-level leadership person.

Stage 2:

But AFAICT from my BF2142 experience, drop pod falling all the way down from the sky is also easy to spot. Meaning that the person will always have to be on the move. But that's bad, because there's no way to set up defenses around him. Of course we can have 5 people covering him, but that wouldn't be a backhack if you have 5 people only covering the spawner, while there're also loads of point to defend...

Stage 3:

That pretty much means that we can only stay inside and cap things genhold-style.

Stage 4:

But yet again bases far from the frontline take loads of time to be capped.


I'm really starting to think that there's a general flaw in current spawn system. It actually limits us to frontline battles. Or if the name doesn't scare you enough - it promotes zergfests.

I see a solution in having a router-type vehicle or something, because Spec Ops are all about "cloak and dagger", rather than "last man stading"...

[Bags]

>The only mobile spawn point we know at the moment is the Galaxy. But with its size, Gal is easy to spot, meaning there's no point in even trying to use it for backhacks. That leaves us with the option to spawn on high-level leadership person.

Fly low or far behind enemy lines.

[NewSith]

>The only mobile spawn point we know at the moment is the Galaxy. But with its size, Gal is easy to spot, meaning there's no point in even trying to use it for backhacks. That leaves us with the option to spawn on high-level leadership person.

Fly low or far behind enemy lines.

You can't flight-spawn. A gal must be landed and deployed to act as a spawn point.

[SKYeXile]

I think it will depend on the effectiveness and ability's of the medic.

Also you could have the gal deployed abit away from the base, when afew people have re spawned load up and drop them off. likelihood of been able to do that more than once is probably slim though.

[NewSith]

I think it will depend on the effectiveness and ability's of the medic.

Another good point - we can't use AV without sacrificing an ability to rez. Single 3-4 MAX crash will rip everyone to shreds.

[sylphaen]

Good questions, hard to answer with what we know. I doubt we will see tons of defenders when we back-hack, though. This might give enough time to set things up.

We may also have more than just boomers or maybe we will be able to hack spawn tubes, etc...

Without the rules of the game, we can't know the game.
:(

[SKYeXile]

Another good point - we can't use AV without sacrificing an ability to rez. Single 3-4 MAX crash will reap everyone to shreds.

you're implying that you still need AV to kill maxes, with the removal of AP ammo i cant see the only things that can takedown an MAX been an assault with AV or a MAX with AV config. (the only 2 things confirmed as having AV)

[Talek Krell]

Another good point - we can't use AV without sacrificing an ability to rez. Single 3-4 MAX crash will reap everyone to shreds.Organized opposition could be a problem on your trip behind enemy lines, yes.

[sylphaen]

They may also give sub-par sidegrade AV weapons in some other class set-ups to make up for that.

[NewSith]

you're implying that you still need AV to kill maxes, with the removal of AP ammo i cant see the only things that can takedown an MAX been an assault with AV or a MAX with AV config. (the only 2 things confirmed as having AV)

Not exactly what I'm implying. Defeating a MAX with SMGs is something I can't see.

EDIT: Medics carrying SMGs is somewhat confirmed info...

[Ailos]

I think the reason it seems to be difficult to backhack is because it is. Deliberately so.

We've already established in other threads that backhacking by a team numbering in the single digits (less than a full squad) is paramount to annoyances that detract from the overall game progress and flow of an invading army. In PS1, the population was capped at less than 400 people per continent, so overall, that wasn't necessarily bad - a team of 3 or 4 people cause a distraction and the holding empire dispatches a full gal to respond (12 people), so you get a 1:3 return on the resources taken.

However, in PS2, a couple things are different.

First, until further notice, I expect the cap to be at least 1000 players per empire per continent. Second, the battles move a lot quicker. Third, there is no lattice between bases as we know it.

If deployed within PS1 mechanics, this results in more people going "fuck, I keep getting killed by that Vanny. I'm gonna go be a little pussy VS and go try to start my own fight rather than win this one."

But within the scope of PS2 mechanics (or what we've seen of them so far) this translates to more people trying to backhack and failing at it. This means that to have any semblance of success, your backhack has to be supported by at least two squads, and at that point, I wouldn't call it a backhack anymore, inasmuch as a valid tactic (since there is an organized group of people with a distinct objective and strategy of achieving it).

So they're trying to force you to organize into groups by making things like backhacking very strategy-intensive operations. If you want to lone-wolf and pussyfoot around with your cloak suit, you're gonna have to stick to the zerg's frontline.

[NewSith]

I think the reason it seems to be difficult to backhack is because it is. Deliberately so.

We've already established in other threads that backhacking by a team numbering in the single digits (less than a full squad) is paramount to annoyances that detract from the overall game progress and flow of an invading army. In PS1, the population was capped at less than 400 people per continent, so overall, that wasn't necessarily bad - a team of 3 or 4 people cause a distraction and the holding empire dispatches a full gal to respond (12 people), so you get a 1:3 return on the resources taken.

However, in PS2, a couple things are different.

First, until further notice, I expect the cap to be at least 1000 players per empire per continent. Second, the battles move a lot quicker. Third, there is no lattice between bases as we know it.

If deployed within PS1 mechanics, this results in more people going "fuck, I keep getting killed by that Vanny. I'm gonna go be a little pussy VS and go try to start my own fight rather than win this one."

But within the scope of PS2 mechanics (or what we've seen of them so far) this translates to more people trying to backhack and failing at it. This means that to have any semblance of success, your backhack has to be supported by at least two squads, and at that point, I wouldn't call it a backhack anymore, inasmuch as a valid tactic (since there is an organized group of people with a distinct objective and strategy of achieving it).

So they're trying to force you to organize into groups by making things like backhacking very strategy-intensive operations. If you want to lone-wolf and pussyfoot around with your cloak suit, you're gonna have to stick to the zerg's frontline.

That's all good, but you must take note that the word "backhack" is only used in the thread name.

[DviddLeff]

Higby mentioned rally points, unsure what he was referring to but it could be a portable but deployable spawn point.

[Bags]

You can't flight-spawn. A gal must be landed and deployed to act as a spawn point.

Why don't you load it up before you leave for the base?

[Raymac]

There are many tactics that we kind of take for granted now that the players quite literally invented for Planetside. I have a feeling that the same will happen with the tools we will have available to us.

But the OP brings up a good point that I see as the only draw back of Gals acting as the AMS. The AMS cloak bubble was really only effective in spec ops. That's why I'd like to see it be an unlockable skill for Gals for those situations. A camo paint job might not be enough.

[NewSith]

Why don't you load it up before you leave for the base?

I've already invented some strategies including yours but that's not the point actually. My post in short is:

Rehacking force is now going to have 2 default advantages instead of one:
- Base ownership
- Easy way to cut off hackers' reinforcements.

A PlanetSide where a rehacking group doesn't need to be tactical at all is quite imbalanced.

[SKYeXile]

I've already invented some strategies including yours but that's not the point actually. My post in short is:

Rehacking force is now going to have 2 default advantages instead of one:
- Base ownership
- Easy way to cut off hackers' reinforcements.

A PlanetSide where a rehacking group doesn't need to be tactical at all is quite imbalanced.

its certainly going to be easier to spot a galaxy rather than a cloaked AMS thats for sure, but in PS the first thing you do when going for a backhack re secure is search for an AMS. then A: hack it, B: destroy it, C: camp it.

I wouldn't be relying on an AMS for a backhack. a thought though, if you cant pull gear from enemy terminals, brining a galaxy is going to be required anyway so you can rockup with the right armour on or change to it/resupply as you take down the base defences.

[Metalsheep]

Can you actually Resupply at the Gal? Or simply spawn at it? I know they said it deploys into a spawn point, but they also said that the Sunderer is the resupply point for infantry/vehicles...

Can you only get new stuff at a Gal when you spawn? That would mean you ALSO need to bring a Sundy if you wanted to restock at places other than enemy terms. If you can even hack them in PS2. I don't remember hearing about that either.

[SKYeXile]

Can you actually Resupply at the Gal? Or simply spawn at it? I know they said it deploys into a spawn point, but they also said that the Sunderer is the resupply point for infantry/vehicles...

Can you only get new stuff at a Gal when you spawn? That would mean you ALSO need to bring a Sundy if you wanted to restock at places other than enemy terms. If you can even hack them in PS2. I don't remember hearing about that either.

there is terminals, it would want to have them...the thing is a fucking mountain.

Galaxy

The Galaxy is truly a sight to behold. It is a heavily armored air transport that can fly into enemy air space and drop up to 12 soldiers, making this vehicle an invaluable strategic asset. The Galaxy is equipped with the innovative "Hot Drop" system which automatically encapsulates any soldier or MAX unit that bails out with a protective barrier that slows their fall. This system removes the bulkiness and complications of using parachutes. The Galaxy can also be deployed into a forward base when landed. When deployed, respawn tubes and equipment terminals become active, creating a forward staging and fall back point for infantry. Additionally, the four weapon systems on the Galaxy can still be operated while deployed, giving it some static defenses.

[Warborn]

"Back hacking" forces being easily displaced is a fine thing, I think. Get in, cause damage, and either stay until you're annihilated or move on to a new sector to cause more trouble. I think keeping the combat focused on "front line" areas is a good goal, but being the behind-the-lines people doing small-scale operations is also fun. A good compromise, I think, is to keep the ability to attack enemy facilities behind their lines in, but make it very difficult to successfully keep a single base down for an extended period of time. Having to hunt numerous invisible spawn points sucks.

[Metalsheep]

Ahhh, okay i see. I must have missed that when i read it the first time.
Though with the sheer size of the Gal, its going to make stealthier operations impossible. Since that thing will be so easy to spot.

...Perhaps the Phantasm could be re-introduced with a similar role, aimed at the Spec-ops players? No weapons, smaller size, cloaking and lightly armored.

[Graywolves]

I think backhacking will be easier now because you don't need to drain a base and make it neutral anymore, instead just sit there for half an hour or something.

[BorisBlade]

There are many tactics that we kind of take for granted now that the players quite literally invented for Planetside. I have a feeling that the same will happen with the tools we will have available to us.

But the OP brings up a good point that I see as the only draw back of Gals acting as the AMS. The AMS cloak bubble was really only effective in spec ops. That's why I'd like to see it be an unlockable skill for Gals for those situations. A camo paint job might not be enough.

The cloak bubble was majorly effective period, but the abundance of reveal and OS's screwed that up. Without those then ams's were much harder to find and kill. Yes you can follow the enemy train, but unless its fairly large you can only get a very general idea. The cloak was hugely important.

I think they are gonna need something else for a spawn. I hope to god they reallllllly limit the awful squad spawn stupidity. Maybe a version of the sunderer that acts as a spawn but loses the repair ability and transport function and cloaks when deployed. Honestly not sure exactly how to do it and there are other alternatives too. Definately need somethin more than the gal which seems like it will be instantly dead without a cloak and will at very least need to be placed back a bit. We need somethin more for the front lines.

Basically a ground version of the spawn point that can cloak would be ideal. I dont want the game too dependant on terrible squad spawning or gigantic bulseye gals that are too far back. If we dont get some better spawn alternatives they may end up buffing the bad aspects like the squad spawns to make them a regular use thing which is plain terrible in a game like this. Permanent respawns are a bad idea, you should be able to take out spawns to push enemies back. Having people be spawn points just makes spawns you can never eliminate and cause soooo many gameflow and gameplay issues that make it play like a cheap deathmatch and not PS.

Do we have any threads i missed about various ideas for mobile/deployable spawns? There must be some pretty cool ideas out there, i know i have several spinnin around in my head.

[Raymac]

The cloak bubble was majorly effective period, but the abundance of reveal and OS's screwed that up. Without those then ams's were much harder to find and kill. Yes you can follow the enemy train, but unless its fairly large you can only get a very general idea. The cloak was hugely important.


I always felt the cloak only bought you a little bit of time initially. Finding AMSes were never much of a problem. You didn't need an enemy train to follow back. Most of the time 1 or 2 enemies coming from a direction that wasn't a tower was all you needed to find an AMS.

In my experience, an AMS lifespan was greatly increased not by it's cloak, but by having a couple troops hang back to repair it and AV soldiers to defend it from air. Then the only thing that could really take it out was the inevitable OS.

Don't get me wrong though. Like I said before, I would like to see a cloak ability because it does prove useful. If it's not in at launch, I have faith that the devs will eventually see why it's needed, whether it is essential as you say, or even just situational as I think.

[Mastachief]

Being in an outfit that (for the first game atleast) actively avoided the main fight i share these concerns with newsith (he's in the outfit too)

For now we need more info's, it could be that outlaying buildings with spawn are linked by tunnel for example.

AMS router combo's used to be very effective however the wide use of hacks and exploits have since rendered them useless however it would be nice to have a similar mechanic available in the new game.

[Bags]

TBH having visible "ams" in PS2 is going to shave off about 30 seconds of searching for their spawn point by people resecuring.

Note: i wouldn't be against the option of giving up weapons on the gal or something for the ablity to cloak, just stating facts.

[ThGlump]

Have a infiltrator run randomly around the base and spawn on him. Even when they spot that droppod, before it lands your "spawn" will be far away.
But you lose one person doing that mobile spawn. (and it depends how often we can squad spawn)

[Warborn]

Ahhh, okay i see. I must have missed that when i read it the first time.
Though with the sheer size of the Gal, its going to make stealthier operations impossible. Since that thing will be so easy to spot.

...Perhaps the Phantasm could be re-introduced with a similar role, aimed at the Spec-ops players? No weapons, smaller size, cloaking and lightly armored.

What about flying around the edge of a continent? Or using terrain to mask your approach? I'm not so sure there's a need to add an invisible vehicle to the game. Maybe the reward for vigilant defense of one's territory should be that you are safe from back hacks. Maybe in that case it would behoove the back-attackers to bring a fighter escort to ensure their safe arrival.

[Metalsheep]

What about flying around the edge of a continent? Or using terrain to mask your approach? I'm not so sure there's a need to add an invisible vehicle to the game. Maybe the reward for vigilant defense of one's territory should be that you are safe from back hacks. Maybe in that case it would behoove the back-attackers to bring a fighter escort to ensure their safe arrival.

I was talking more about once the gal is landed. It HAS to land and deploy to be a spawn point, which then makes it super visable since the thing is so gigantic. I was also thinking of the phantasm more after its landed and deployed. The phantasm is probably my favorite aircraft in PS currently. Its so very underrated.

It could even be set so ONLY your squad/platoon can spawn at the Phantasm, so that it retains its stealthy spawn capability, without drawing players who are at the front line fighting to this Phantasm cloaked for Spec-Ops outfit purposes. Perhaps the phantasm wouldnt even have equip terms, just a few spawn points, since you can spawn in with your loadout now, rather than in PJs.

[Warborn]

Oh, yeah. I think I mentioned earlier that hunting down invisible spawn points is pretty annoying. So... that.

[Mastachief]

Oh, yeah. I think I mentioned earlier that hunting down invisible spawn points is pretty annoying. So... that.

Usable spawn points in a battle where 20 attackers are defending successfully against 50+ resecure troops is a life line to the attackers and brings variety to the fighting. without a respawn point it would be all down to your medic who is likely to be killed by a max and that's the end of that fight.

If this is made so that it is no longer viable for a small force to go off and do their own thing the fights may as well be COD or BF not a MMOFPS persistant battle.

[sylphaen]

may as well be COD or BF not a MMOFPS persistant battle.

PS2 could very well be a large scale COD or BF or not, until we can see the result in beta.

Like Schroedinger's cat !
:cool:

[Warborn]

Usable spawn points in a battle where 20 attackers are defending successfully against 50+ resecure troops is a life line to the attackers and brings variety to the fighting. without a respawn point it would be all down to your medic who is likely to be killed by a max and that's the end of that fight.

If this is made so that it is no longer viable for a small force to go off and do their own thing the fights may as well be COD or BF not a MMOFPS persistant battle.

I'd rather a Planetside where attacks are untenable if you don't properly defend your spawn than 5 hour meatgrinder base defenses because the attackers always have a dozen invisible spawn points setup all around the base with more coming faster than you can kill them.

I also don't agree that if this makes sall forces "no longer viable" (which it won't) that it would make it like CoD or BF. So by eliminating small-scale actions and forcing people to participate in fights involving hundreds of people and dozens of tanks and aircraft that would make it like Call of Duty? Really? Not that this in any way makes small scale operations dead on arrival, but I find your concern of what the end result would be a pretty strange one.

[Mastachief]

COD BF3 are single battle games regardless of scale it would be the same game.

Your lack of ability to see outside of zerging doesn't really surprise me and you are of course entitled to that position.

But i ask you this how do you think alternative fights are created in the current game? I can tell you now you cannot open a new continent or even a different base without a viable respawn point if the enemy care about you trying to take their base and you do not have 60%+ pop at said base/continent.


As for Schroedinger's cat, i love this reference and this can be used in pretty much all current ps2 in game discussions right now :)

[Warborn]

COD BF3 are single battle games regardless of scale it would be the same game.

Your lack of ability to see outside of zerging doesn't really surprise me and you are of course entitled to that position.

But i ask you this how do you think alternative fights are created in the current game? I can tell you now you cannot open a new continent or even a different base without a viable respawn point if the enemy care about you trying to take their base and you do not have 60%+ pop at said base/continent.

So the only thing separating Planetside 1 and potentially 2 from being "the same" as CoD/BF3 is the ability to attack bases that aren't being fought over and to have smaller scale, 10-on-10 or 20-on-20 or so fights? Fights which would not include many if any vehicles and would instead be infantry-v-infantry over a small piece of terrain? Really?

Alternate fights are created when people move from one area to a new area and begin fighting there. Sometimes that happens in a "behind enemy lines" approach, but it doesn't always, nor does it have to.

At any rate, not having cloaked galaxies in no way automatically eliminates the ability to attack areas "behind the lines". The entire assertion is really pretty strange to me given how little is known about attacking bases, taking towers, and so on.

[Talek Krell]

COD BF3 are single battle games regardless of scale it would be the same game.Where is the facepalm emote? I'm certain there was one.

[Baneblade]

Backhacking is and always will be a suicide mission ultimately. Bringing an AMS or in PS2's case the Gal is just a silly waste of time.

[Mastachief]

Where is the facepalm emote? I'm certain there was one.

Maybe you can request that emote for ps2

If you cannot successfully take other areas due to the easy mode that resecuring small hacks would become (because you cannot hide the big assed gal) then your attack would be point A to point B even if you can hack any base it never happens in the zerg they go from one to another.

To give an example, forseral some time in november 2011 we are bored of the blue lions failing on a cont so our 12 (or so) man squad goes to forseral.

The VS have a sizeable resecure team online, Knowing this we target dagda but we also send a couple of troops to anu and bel with ams at both of these semi ghost hacks. No hacks go on until we have 2 ams's at dagda with router set up too and all CE laid. The semi ghost are capable of stopping the first few VS resecure scouts buying dagda 5mins or so.

Once the semi ghosts have gone those troops are back at dagda defending stairwells and tunnels. Things are tight and although the first AMS is discovered our backup which is hidden with the router is doing fine and so the troops dieing in the stairwells can if needs be respawn and pop through the router to the basement. eventually the router is discovered but by now the timer is at <4minutes. Now the VS are pushing hard the stairwell guys recover to basement level <2mins the VS have the spawns up <1minute the VS are pushing hard 65% pop VS the hack is through and more NC seeing this alternative to the zerg and jumping conts.

See with out these "annoying" hidden spawn points it would simply have been

Ghosts gone in 2minutes the base zerged 2minutes later.

So if the game does not supply the tools for you to successfully go else where from the main fight you will essentially be forced to fight in the main fight.

Yes yes i know we know very little right now but the more that is revealed the more this aspect is a concern to me and others that generally avoid the main fight.

[Warborn]

If you cannot successfully take other areas due to the easy mode that resecuring small hacks would become (because you cannot hide the big assed gal) then your attack would be point A to point B even if you can hack any base it never happens in the zerg they go from one to another.

You can attack other areas on the same continent. The continents are not just long lines of one base connecting to another base. I'm not sure why you think the only options are to keep back hacking exactly as it was in PS1 or else the game instantly becomes Call of Duty. Maybe the people who want to do back hacking should simply evolve their tactics to incorporate galaxies as spawn points now. Personally I think the idea of parking the galaxy somewhere safe and if a back hack fails, trying a new base somewhere further away when everyone respawns at the galaxy sounds kinda cool.

[Trolltaxi]

Backhacking, draining bases etc were a useful tactic in PS1, especially when the playerbase started to drop. If you took your squad to a drain, and the enemy had to dispatch two squads to respond, it was more painful for them in the main battle. With large playerbase, there is not that much need for backhacking, when you have 2 poplocked continent a contested cave and some random skirmishes you don't really want to backhack.

On the other hand PS2 territory capture system works against backhacking pretty well. If you need 20 minutes (or 30? not confirmed yet) to capture a lone hexa and the enemy needs only 2 then no one really tries this kind of warfare because of the high risk of effort going to waste.

[Zulthus]

Backhacking is always fun just to start a farm.

[Madlaps]

You guys aren't thinking of the awesome possibilities of having a flying dropship that you can spawn on... It doesn't need to be close for small squad-based spec ops use. Hopefully we can bind to them like AMSs.

[ringring]

Backhacking is and always will be a suicide mission ultimately. Bringing an AMS or in PS2's case the Gal is just a silly waste of time.
This requires a facepalm.

I'm with the OP and masterchief on this which I tried explaining this in a different thread quite badly, as did figgy.

Being able to backhack / open another fight or whatever you call it is essential to the dynamics of PS. So yes, it is a worry and I hope we haven't yet seen the full extent of the devs ideas on spawn points.

[Gandhi]

There's no reason it has to be one or the other. We could have galaxies with cloak as a customization with some kind of trade off, then to keep the battlefield from being flooded with invisible galaxies you could give some aircraft or vehicles a customization to help detect cloaked objects, again with a heavy trade off (sacrificing rockets on the airsup vehicles for example). Which again helps reinforce teamwork by turning that vehicle into more of a spotter for the rest of the squad/platoon.

"They keep coming, there must be a cloaked gal around here somewhere"
"I'll jump in a Mossie with cloak detector..... found it, top right corner of E7"
"Ok, coming with Prowlers."

[Mastachief]

Hi Ghandi

That would certainly help however the devs said on twitter that the gall will not be capable of cloaking.

Even if it good cloak the size of the bubble would make it pretty easy to find by just buzzing around in a plane.

Personally i'd like some form of mobile spawn setup or like i said maybe out-laying towers are better linked to bases so you can get safely back to the base.

[Gandhi]

Well I'm assuming since we're still in pre-beta nothing is set in stone yet. The key to this idea is the trade-off for the cloak detector, it has to be severe enough that you wouldn't fly around with it all the time. That way it becomes a counter to a specific situation, instead of just a mandatory customization for every air pilot.

Same with the cloak customization for the gal, it has to require giving up something useful, like most of the weapons and armor for instance. That way you can choose between a covert but lightly armored spawn point or a heavily armed but totally obvious spawn point.

[Qwan]

Does anyone have a for sure list of the vehicles that will be coming out, not the number but a LIST of what vehicles will be coming out, release date. And is there an article saying that there will be no AMS, or loadstar.

[FriendlyFire]

Back hacking may not be a less-than-full squad thing, now. I in vision back hacking as a Platoon activity, where hacks on the Hex and surrounding Hexs all get hacked at the same time by individuals or squads. This way the defenders would have to re-secure all of the Hexs, while the Attackers plan to fall back and defend the "main Hex."

[Talek Krell]

Being able to backhack / open another fight or whatever you call it is essential to the dynamics of PS. So yes, it is a worry and I hope we haven't yet seen the full extent of the devs ideas on spawn points.Are you keeping in mind that each empire has a reliable foothold on each continent to begin with? And bear in mind that the territory game is fundamentally different in that there's a reason to capture things other than bases, which are now absolutely massive and have to be captured in multiple stages. Just because a handful of troops is no longer appropriate for flipping a base does not mean that there is nothing for you to do and nowhere for you to go.

[SKYeXile]

Are you keeping in mind that each empire has a reliable foothold on each continent to begin with? And bear in mind that the territory game is fundamentally different in that there's a reason to capture things other than bases, which are now absolutely massive and have to be captured in multiple stages. Just because a handful of troops is no longer appropriate for flipping a base does not mean that there is nothing for you to do and nowhere for you to go.

yea, it will be interesting to see how this plays out ingame...fights on a content would likely then be nonstop and each continent could be full at all times.

[Baneblade]

This requires a facepalm.

I'm with the OP and masterchief on this which I tried explaining this in a different thread quite badly, as did figgy.

Being able to backhack / open another fight or whatever you call it is essential to the dynamics of PS. So yes, it is a worry and I hope we haven't yet seen the full extent of the devs ideas on spawn points.

I'll trump you with a double facepalm.

Backhacks go one of two ways, they fail or they succeed. Granted an AMS and Router made that a little easier to pull off (if the resecuring players are morons), but the bottom line is that you will either live and not need to respawn before the base turns or you will die and lose the hack and respawning is pointless.

Once the base is resecured, it is no longer a backhack. So sticking around and calling it one is rather lamentable.

Frankly, I think the lack of sanctuaries will have more of an impact on this.

[ringring]

I'll trump you with a double facepalm.

Backhacks go one of two ways, they fail or they succeed. Granted an AMS and Router made that a little easier to pull off (if the resecuring players are morons), but the bottom line is that you will either live and not need to respawn before the base turns or you will die and lose the hack and respawning is pointless.

Once the base is resecured, it is no longer a backhack. So sticking around and calling it one is rather lamentable.

Frankly, I think the lack of sanctuaries will have more of an impact on this.

I don't understand where you're coming from tbh.

Live or die? Yes. Live ok.... die respawn, to respawn need ams.

I am not thinking of this as ghost hack, I imagine it in a full platoon attack and do it pretty much as it is done now with prep and multi-layered defence the object being ultimately to compel enough of the enemy to recall to resecure that your empire advances elsewhere. It works on PS1 and should on PS2 - but good spawn points are vital.

As an aside, I was listening to Supermorto's interview with Robo yesterday . Simply in passing and not related to PS2 he said "amses are vital" in capturing a base and I thought, 'yep'.

[NewSith]

I'll trump you with a double facepalm.

Backhacks go one of two ways, they fail or they succeed. Granted an AMS and Router made that a little easier to pull off (if the resecuring players are morons), but the bottom line is that you will either live and not need to respawn before the base turns or you will die and lose the hack and respawning is pointless.

Once the base is resecured, it is no longer a backhack. So sticking around and calling it one is rather lamentable.

Frankly, I think the lack of sanctuaries will have more of an impact on this.

You're too fixated on the word "backhack".
The problem here is far more global than think. It complicates things for attackers whatever their number is - be it a ghosthack, a backhack, or a goddamn organised raid...

[Tool]

I think it may be worthwhile to shed those PS1 notions on territory control to try and gain fresh perspective. You have to consider the inclusion of resources and the impact it may have on priorities for land aquisition or territory denial.

Also due to this new hex territory and control system rather than the archaic lattice, battle stagnation will be less of an issue one would assume. A dynamic, constantly changing front will perhaps allow for far more opportunities for specialized units to go behind enemy lines and create havoc.

There's more varibles that need to be considered along currently unknown or little understood gameplay mechanics before one should so concerned.

[psychosiszz]

I don't understand where you're coming from tbh.

Live or die? Yes. Live ok.... die respawn, to respawn need ams.

I am not thinking of this as ghost hack, I imagine it in a full platoon attack and do it pretty much as it is done now with prep and multi-layered defence the object being ultimately to compel enough of the enemy to recall to resecure that your empire advances elsewhere. It works on PS1 and should on PS2 - but good spawn points are vital.

As an aside, I was listening to Supermorto's interview with Robo yesterday . Simply in passing and not related to PS2 he said "amses are vital" in capturing a base and I thought, 'yep'.


Isn't that what medics are for? to revive your comrades.... a good setup of the different classes/maxes i feel will still win you a base. Plenty of times in PS1 were we lost all respawn points quite quickly and had to rely on medic revives.

[Espion]

Backhacking is and always will be a suicide mission ultimately.

Are you sure you've played PS? If you're one of those people that think only the zerg fight matters then you need to stop posting right now.



On AMS's: They've never been necessary for a skilled coordinated group. There was a time when none of the top outfits would prep a base or use a spawnpoint, they'd just drop and hold, then rely on medics, and on being better coordinated and having better communication than everyone else. See Dagda.

[Baneblade]

Are you sure you've played PS? If you're one of those people that think only the zerg fight matters then you need to stop posting right now.

That is a retarded conclusion. Like I said, if the backhack is successful, you have a base to spawn in... if it isn't, it won't matter if you have an AMS or not. Unless you like to spawn at an AMS and footzerg through interlinks as some kind of weird hobby.

[Warborn]

Lots of uncreative people unprepared to develop new tactics for a new game in this thread.

[Espion]

That is a retarded conclusion. Like I said, if the backhack is successful, you have a base to spawn in... if it isn't, it won't matter if you have an AMS or not. Unless you like to spawn at an AMS and footzerg through interlinks as some kind of weird hobby.

Sounds like you've never even attempted to play with the style you're ridiculing. For starters, if you've been fighting your way back into your holds from an AMS while the base you're hacking still has interlink benefits, something went seriously wrong. In fact you probably weren't at a backhack, you were probably still with the zerg.

It definitely shouldn't always be necessary to bring an AMS to a proper hold, but at the same time if you never need to something is still wrong. There are plenty of times where having one makes life a lot easier and allows the hold to go much smoother. Transitioning from the air to inside the base, and for quickly setting out CE in CY are two good examples. It never hurts to simply have one 'just in case' too. It was pretty common for us to die during a hold out-numbered 3:1 without an AMS, then just pull planes and fly back in to keep holding.


tl;dr... It's ok to have an opinion, but don't pretend like you know what you're talking about when you clearly have no idea.

[SgtMAD]

LOL you ppl are not prepared for what is going to hit you when this game goes live,there are some many old school guys coming back in numbers that will make all this handwringing comical,
these "small" outfits have gone through 100's of guys over the years as ppl joined and quit playing and most of those guys are going to be back already trained up and ready to fit into the command system that was used during PS,I have talked to over 130 ppl that are going to return to play for Ht so instead of that one platoon that used to tear shit up surging around in 2003 is now 2 or 3 platoons of guys that know how to listen and execute.

that gives you enough ppl to run armor with aircav support and 3 full gals just for a back hack LOL, its going to be insane.

then add in the other outfits that used to be around back in the first couple of years,now you have groups of outfits that used to work together all playing again so now you will be able to find some help much easier that it was at the beginning of PS when no one really knew anyone else so teamwork was much more rare.