Friendly Fire

[Kaotc]

ive had a look through the info posts can cant see anything recent discussing this, so thought i would put up a post.

Has there been any information regarding how friendly fire will work in PS2?

im a bit worried about the F2P aspect bringing in a billion immature players, that will have the sole aim of being assholes....

the one good thing about subs based games is that generally there is a higher calibre of mature players onboard.


is there any information out there about what measures are being put in place for this?

[Vash02]

I believe a modified grief system that PS1 used is in PS2.

[Exoskeleton]

Oh this is serious, every now and then such player appears and sabotages his team. In a game with hundreds of players on each side at the same time, the percentage of such players would definitely be higher.
I'm all for no friendly damage, or at least a server option to enable/disable friendly fire, so that we can choose when joining a server, a server with FF on or one that has it disabled.

[Kaotc]

see i am all for friendly fire, i think its an important part to the game.

But with it being F2P, im worried about the exponential increase in tossers playing, and am wondering if we have had any insight from the Dev team into how the idiot factor is going to be mitigated

[basti]

Friendly Fire has to be on, at all times. Everything else will result in madness. Imagine 20 guys trying to push through a door:
With FF: The first few of the 20 that rush shoot, a few guys further back aim for the holes, others use weapons that have an arc to shoot their stuff over the friendly heads.

Without FF: Everyone just Spams crap.

[Warborn]

Grief points worked pretty well in PS1. TK'ing was not intentionally done much at all. I think having friendly fire in while keeping something like the grief point system would work well again.

[Saintlycow]

Friendly Fire has to be on, at all times. Everything else will result in madness. Imagine 20 guys trying to push through a door:
With FF: The first few of the 20 that rush shoot, a few guys further back aim for the holes, others use weapons that have an arc to shoot their stuff over the friendly heads.

Without FF: Everyone just Spams crap.

You're assuming that bullets go through teammates, which the hopefully wont

[Exoskeleton]

Well imagine this a Liberator with a pilot and a gunner team-rapers, circling and destroying their team. If team killing is punishable ok, after a couple of kills the shooter will be kicked, what about team vehicles killing though? Damaging or destroying on purpose a vehicle that is currently empty but can be used by your team... Actually wait it would be possible even if FF is turned off, ok then not killing, just damaging friendly manned vehicles. This would not be punishable and at the same time would be quite an effective way to weaken your own team.

[Warborn]

Well imagine this a Liberator with a pilot and a gunner team-rapers, circling and destroying their team. If team killing is punishable ok, after a couple of kills the shooter will be kicked, what about team vehicles killing though? Damaging or destroying on purpose a vehicle that is currently empty but can be used by your team.

This is not a new concern. All of this was possible in Planetside 1. Unoccupied friendly vehicles you didn't own gave you grief points when you damaged them. Seriously, Planetside 1 has had friendly fire for, like, 9 years now, and teamkilling is not a significant issue in it to this day.

[Gandhi]

This is not a new concern. All of this was possible in Planetside 1. Unoccupied friendly vehicles you didn't own gave you grief points when you damaged them. Seriously, Planetside 1 has had friendly fire for, like, 9 years now, and teamkilling is not a significant issue in it to this day.
Mainly because accounts cost money, and with grief lock tied to an account it's a very effective deterrent. As long as there's some kind of cost barrier in PS2 the same system will work just fine, but if you can create an account and jump into the game for free then there's nothing stopping someone from making 5 or 6 accounts to bounce between.

[Vash02]

Well imagine this a Liberator with a pilot and a gunner team-rapers, circling and destroying their team. If team killing is punishable ok, after a couple of kills the shooter will be kicked, what about team vehicles killing though? Damaging or destroying on purpose a vehicle that is currently empty but can be used by your team... Actually wait it would be possible even if FF is turned off, ok then not killing, just damaging friendly manned vehicles. This would not be punishable and at the same time would be quite an effective way to weaken your own team.

You get grief points in PS1 for damaging friendly vehicles. no reason it wont in PS2.

[CutterJohn]

FF is off for the first 10 hours of gameplay on a character. Grief is still applied. Grief is only lost while playing.

We keep FF. Griefers will soon be grief locked. They can make a new account to grief, but that will require ten hours of playing to unlock the ability to tk. Grief only goes down while playing, so they cannot make 50 characters and keep cycling through them.


Thats about as tight as I can make it without getting a credit card involved.

[Exoskeleton]

Ok I read more about the grief points system, it sounds good actually.

[basti]

You're assuming that bullets go through teammates, which the hopefully wont

No, i dont. I assume that they would be blocked, but just dont do any damage on friendlys. And thats just as stupid.


Friendly fire needs to be on, at all times, forever. Its nessesary for the game, simple as that.

[Tikuto]

Friendly Fire has to be on at all times.http://ed101.bu.edu/StudentDoc/Archives/ED101fa08/ko2010/correct.gif

[Saintlycow]

Friendly fire needs to be on, at all times, forever. Its nessesary for the game, simple as that.

I agree, but with the free to play aspect, someone can make multiple accounts after one is banned and abuse the system. They could tie accounts to credit cards... But this is Sony we're talking about :lol:

[Kaotc]

FF is an absolute must, i agree.


Ok I read more about the grief points system, it sounds good actually.

where did you read up on it, do you mean the old system, or a new greif system for PS2?


my concerns are that the old system was really effective, but that was with a pay to play, mature playerbase.

the same system i dont belive will be up to the task of a F2P idiots everywhere playerbase.


is there anything from the Dev's about the FF mechanic?

[Exoskeleton]

I read about the old one. But anyways even if it is left unchanged in PS2, it would still help reduce significantly the impact of such undesirable behavior, even if the game is F2P.

[Tasorin]

Friendly Fire must be enabled at all times.

[BlazingSun]

They could tie accounts to credit cards... But this is Sony we're talking about :lol:

So we can get our account and credit card details stolen again?

[Xaine]

Friendly Fire must be enabled at all times.

This.

FF is one of, if not THE most important aspects of Planetside.

[Scrima]

FF is off for the first 10 hours of gameplay on a character. Grief is still applied. Grief is only lost while playing.

We keep FF. Griefers will soon be grief locked. They can make a new account to grief, but that will require ten hours of playing to unlock the ability to tk. Grief only goes down while playing, so they cannot make 50 characters and keep cycling through them.


Thats about as tight as I can make it without getting a credit card involved.

This. Keeps the griefers from impacting others and keeps true newbs from causing to much pain to their team and still gives them a slap on the wrist.

[Goku]

Mainly because accounts cost money, and with grief lock tied to an account it's a very effective deterrent. As long as there's some kind of cost barrier in PS2 the same system will work just fine, but if you can create an account and jump into the game for free then there's nothing stopping someone from making 5 or 6 accounts to bounce between.

This wasn't a issue with the Reserves System that allowed for a 1 year free. When that came about the population was fairly healthy during that year. There was no major issues with mass tking/griefing then I doubt there will be now.

[Espion]

I agree, but with the free to play aspect, someone can make multiple accounts after one is banned and abuse the system. They could tie accounts to credit cards... But this is Sony we're talking about :lol:

That's still better than what the gameplay would degrade into without FF.

[Warborn]

Mainly because accounts cost money, and with grief lock tied to an account it's a very effective deterrent. As long as there's some kind of cost barrier in PS2 the same system will work just fine, but if you can create an account and jump into the game for free then there's nothing stopping someone from making 5 or 6 accounts to bounce between.

I don't think the cost of an account really matters. Did griefing become a major issue when the Reserves program opened up? I don't remember that being the case. There aren't enough people willing to create new e-mail accounts to create new free accounts to kill a couple people before their account gets temporarily weapon-locked for it to justify turning off friendly fire.

[kilroy]

FF is off for the first 10 hours of gameplay on a character. Grief is still applied. Grief is only lost while playing.

We keep FF. Griefers will soon be grief locked. They can make a new account to grief, but that will require ten hours of playing to unlock the ability to tk. Grief only goes down while playing, so they cannot make 50 characters and keep cycling through them.


Thats about as tight as I can make it without getting a credit card involved.

This seems pretty waterproof, I’m liking it.

[TacosWLove]

Yes Friendly Fire MUST be on at all times....

[Azren]

Friendly fire must be on, no debates on this topic anymore pelase!

The point about team killers is a valid one though, but they can be dealt with easily. For example by not getting any grief points for killing a flagged character (team killers get flagged status for 30secs after killing someone) and locking the TK's weapons after a number of kills in a limited time.

[PoisonTaco]

Make it so that friendly fire does damage to you instead. Shoot your friend by mistake? You take the hit.

This way there's a reason to avoid hurting your team while at the same time your team doesn't get punished for your stupidity.

[Azren]

Make it so that friendly fire does damage to you instead. Shoot your friend by mistake? You take the hit.

This way there's a reason to avoid hurting your team while at the same time your team doesn't get punished for your stupidity.

Sorry, but this is no good. Why would I have to get hurt because some noob runs into my line of fire?

Do you people want this game to be for carebears? Its a fast paced massive FPS for crying out loud! Let those who get hit by FF die just as they would from enemy fire.

[ThGlump]

Did griefing become a major issue when the Reserves program opened up?

It surely increased. It wasnt some morons who could not shoot, or for fun (those were there too), but while successfully defending, friendly player shows up, start TKing, and seconds later enemy attacks. Saw it many times so it was not coincidence. I never saw it before and after reserves.

You re right it wasnt major issue, but this was happening, and it will happen in ps2 too, if ps2 dont have any payment to start.

10 hours of full grief and no damage is good start, but it would be easy just to create multiple chars, and let them idle in game to be ready for grieving when needed. FF must be on (it would be boring spamfest without), but grief mechanics need to be prepared for abusing f2p.

[QuiCKaNdDeaDLy]

The best FF System I have seen so far was like when you Hit Friendlys you wouldnt Hurt them but yourself instead...

[Kaotc]

The best FF System I have seen so far was like when you Hit Friendlys you wouldnt Hurt them but yourself instead...

what happens then if someone wants to block a doorway, instead of killing their own team.
he can block that doorway all day long, until an enemy comes along to shoot him.

not to mention if your holding a corridor or doorway against the enemy, and someone decides to jump in front of your MCG fire.... how is that my fault?


So no, you taking damage for hitting friendlies is not an option.

[Azren]

The best FF System I have seen so far was like when you Hit Friendlys you wouldnt Hurt them but yourself instead...

That would never work in PS. It might have worked in a BF or CoD or whatever, where you have 10-15 people on your side, but will never be any good for 100+.

Those who get shot, die. Simple as that. Anything else is nonsence. If we have major issues with griefing, this can be chaned easily at any time.

I personally think that getting a flagged status if you attack friendly is the best option. Flagged players would be allowed to be attacked without any grief points. If you ever played Lineage 2, you know this works perfectly.


You folks seam to forget one very important detail: This will be an MMO! Not your average session based fps. Here we will have active communites with possible infighting. I'm positive that rivarly will lead to outfits fighting eachother.
This is the healthy enviroument for any MMO, limiting it takes the fun away. We need to leave the option for these events open, not limit them in any way.

[SKYeXile]

The best FF System I have seen so far was like when you Hit Friendlys you wouldnt Hurt them but yourself instead...

Lets leave the game designing to the professionals, this is a F2P MMO FPS...it attract a certain crowd.

some problems with that have already been highlighted.

[Azren]

The best FF System I have seen so far was like when you Hit Friendlys you wouldnt Hurt them but yourself instead...

you know what? Lets do this. All we need is 6-8 people logging in as enemies to block off the exits of the base's spawn room. Will make for short base fights indeed :rofl:

[SKYeXile]

you know what? Lets do this. All we need is 6-8 people logging in as enemies to block off the exits of the base's spawn room. Will make for short base fights indeed :rofl:

BEST FF SYSTEM EVER!

[HitbackTR]

The best FF System I have seen so far was like when you Hit Friendlys you wouldnt Hurt them but yourself instead...

This is an idiotic idea which just would not work in Planetside.

There were many reasons that the FF/grief count model was so successful in Planetside.

First of all it added to the realism of the combat scenario, you couldn't just spray and pray with weapon types such as SA, miniguns etc without racking up a lot of grief. You had to pick your shots to avoid hitting faction members. It also allowed you the ability to kill members of your own faction who were deliberately going out of their way to sabotage your own factions efforts on the battlefield. There are other reasons which come to mind but I will leave it there but I will say that I am very happy to see that the grief system is returning for PS2.

[Tool]

Even though its F2P, would there be a way to limit account creation through the games launcher? Something IP # based or similar?

The idea of a grace period after new account creation is good, but as already stated, unless there's a way to limit the amount of accounts, greifing asshats can just switch between accounts once that time is up.

It may not have that great of an issue in PS1 sure, but PS2 appears to be a different beast and such is the nature.

[Zhane]

While I strongly dislike friendly fire in most shooters, I couldn't imagine Planetside without it. It's a must.

[Yutty]

what if they made the spawn timer after they die longer each time they damaged a teammate more than a certain amount?

[Knocky]

FF: on

[Shade Millith]

This is an idiotic idea which just would not work in Planetside.

There were many reasons that the FF/grief count model was so successful in Planetside.
.

Actually, I kinda like the sound of maybe x amount of Grief, THEN damage is reflected back to you for 24 hours.

Those who play properly do normal FF damage, those who run around TKing just kill themselves, and those who do accidentally do go over the Grief aren't locked out of the game (Can still shoot).

[Hmr85]

FF on is a must. I also hope they keep the grief system the same as how they had it in PS1. It was very well done.

[Azren]

Actually, I kinda like the sound of maybe x amount of Grief, THEN damage is reflected back to you for 24 hours.

Those who play properly do normal FF damage, those who run around TKing just kill themselves, and those who do accidentally do go over the Grief aren't locked out of the game (Can still shoot).

This is the most sensible idea yet, if setup right. I would support this.

[Ale]

If it ain't broke...

Shooting friendlies is sometimes required. Abandoned Empire owned vehicles blocking paths, afk LLU runners, people blocking advancing teammates with maels, etc, or even just spawn camping intentional Tk'ers until they log.

Not to mention what it would do to "Dueling" (lol*) if you couldn't squad up with friendlies and shoot them in the face with no penalty.

With FF off, AC never could have defeated Planetsides endboss.

[Graywolves]

Actually, I kinda like the sound of maybe x amount of Grief, THEN damage is reflected back to you for 24 hours.

Those who play properly do normal FF damage, those who run around TKing just kill themselves, and those who do accidentally do go over the Grief aren't locked out of the game (Can still shoot).

I like this.

[Rumblepit]

im not sure.... but didnt the devs say ff would be off during release until players got use to the new weapons and armor?

[Azren]

im not sure.... but didnt the devs say ff would be off during release until players got use to the new weapons and armor?

No. What they said is that they do not know if it will be on or off, but *right now* it's on.

[Rumblepit]

ahhhh ok ....it was awhile ago when i read it.

i think alot of factors will come in to play on this.

1) lowest common denominator/via free to play
2) how well the level artist dose.halls, door ways ect.....
3) noobs ,and the shear number of players that will be in game.


will all effect how the grief system is implemented. im sure they will make a call on ff after we do stress testing.

[basti]

Lets end this discussion already...



Friendly Fire has to be on, and in full effect, always, at all times. Its a given, without it, Planetside would quickly degenerate into a massive spamfest, and other issues like blocking friendlys just for giggles would also pop up.

It has to be there, otherwise the game is killing itself quicker than you could imagine.


But how to prevent the random fool that just wants to annoy people? There are several ways:

In game: Cutters "10 hours of no FF" is solid. While it isnt waterproof, it pretty much fully stops the "im annoyed about htis guy, i will create another acc to TK him all day." We had that in Planetside, before and after the fooders, with trial accounts. Wasnt much of a problem, happend rarley, but the 10 hours would mostly fully stop it.
The system can be made better as well, as it is easy to track what a player did in that 10 hours. If we just stood somewhere, doing not much, for 10 hours, then its clear what this guy want to do, and if he starts doing the TKing after the 10 hours, twice the grief could be applied for every FF incident, making him weapon locked rather quickly.

Out of game: Fact is, you have the game on your machine. Fact is, the only reason why SOE could not identify your machine using a whole lot of ways would be legal issues. Legal issues asside, they could check your IP, mac adress, file index, a whole lot of different hardware stuff, a giant lot of different software stuff, etc. If they use it all, it would be fairly easy to identify your system 100% accurate, and it would take you at least a whole lot of efford to get around this, or (if done correctly), require you to fully replace your PC every time.
Obviously, they cannut use all the possibilitys, as that would cause quite some headlines if Sony checks what porn you have on ya drives. There are still ways to identify you without running into legal issues, and while you can get around them, they would stop everyone not being 100% serious about being an ass, means most of the griefers.

Now, heres the thing: SOE also thinks about the cheaters, and they seem to know how difficult it would be to deal with them in a F2P. Im pretty sure they use everything they can to stop a banned cheater from simply creating another account. If they use the same techniques for griefers, then Friendly Fire should really be no issue.

[Rumblepit]

"Now, heres the thing: SOE also thinks about the cheaters, and they seem to know how difficult it would be to deal with them in a F2P. Im pretty sure they use everything they can to stop a banned cheater from simply creating another account. If they use the same techniques for griefers, then Friendly Fire should really be no issue."



this is true. if they can stop the script kiddies and tk asshats from making new accounts at the drop of a dime. they will be good to go.

but this is not a very easy thing to do.

[boblikesoup]

I like the reflection after grief system. Here is what I think would work well:


Teammates take 1/2 damage from FF. Grief to a small limit (approximately enough dmg to kill 2 teammates over the course of an hour). After grief limit, 1/4 damage is reflected back to you. After too much, weapons lock. The game could also have a system that tracks FF dmg allocation and if you hit the same person above the small grief limit within one hour, your grief accumulation rate significantly increases for damaging them further.

[Kaotc]

I like the reflection after grief system. Here is what I think would work well:


Teammates take 1/2 damage from FF. Grief to a small limit (approximately enough dmg to kill 2 teammates over the course of an hour). After grief limit, 1/4 damage is reflected back to you. After too much, weapons lock. The game could also have a system that tracks FF dmg allocation and if you hit the same person above the small grief limit within one hour, your grief accumulation rate significantly increases for damaging them further.


the problem with reflecting damage, is some times (and im guessing alot more in a F2P environment) a genuine player will HAVE to shoot one of his own team, be it because the guy is blocking, or the guy is intentionally running in field of fire.

having reflect damage, just allows grievers a way to hurt genuine players by jumping infront of their fire, which isn't acceptable.

[Graywolves]

As someone who plays a DC Max often. I thoroughly enjoy killing an idiot who jumps infront of me.

[Rumblepit]

i dont know how i feel about it. sometimes people need to be tked to get the job done.
also shet happens, and it happens alot when the pops are big. pops in ps2 will be massive.

[JDNight]

The original system in the first Planetside worked well. The problem with reflecting damage back is that many of the weapon systems in the game are AoE, and there are many people who run around, well, just not thinking about this fact. If you used a Thumper in PS 1, any high level bomber, or any long ranged AoE weapon, you would hit allies from time to time. Plain and simple. The question was, could you keep it to a dull roar.

Many of the objectives in PS 1 required a 'zerg' style approach and I would not be surprised if the same happened in PS 2. AoE weapons will do lots of damage to the enemy in this case, but you better believe you will hit some friendlies from time to time.

This is just ONE of the great facts that separates PS from all the other FPSers out there. Planetside is ALSO about tactics and strategy.

Oh, and as a reminder, people respawned in PS 1 at little cost. Victory and capturing objectives was what the game was about. Not K/D ratio. Best exp gains were from capturing major objectives. It appears that is going to be the major source of reward in PS 2 also.

[super pretendo]

The most important function of friendly fire is to force some realistic discretion and strategic considerations onto players. Otherwise, in mass pvp, the best strategy would be to spray and pray as many bullets and explosions as possible. Thinking not to hit you own friendlies is a big deal and makes the game much richer

[Figment]

You know, even if you are concerned with some people playing to ruin things for their own empire, think of it from the opposite empire. We've seen from PS1 extreme cheats you'd actually want their own empire to be able to hold them down through TKing. Because it's likely the enemy won't have as easy access to the same position a cheat is in.

Which means friendly fire is actually... required.

And of course it dims the amount of spam you lob after a friendly pushing in, which means more aiming is required. That's always a good thing. I mean if 20 MCGs or Lashers, Jackhammers, Thumpers or whatever else is heavy firepower with low accuracy which you can just spam whatever, large groups will do just that.

[psychosiszz]

FF needs to be on. Otherwise retarded crap happens. Like blowing someone up with a demopack when there right next to you and you don't die. No FF will also increase grenade/rocket/explosives spam.

PS1 got it right when it came to the grief system.

[Hmr85]

Yep, keep the same system we had in PS1 in PS2. It worked very well. If your guns got locked constantly your doing it wrong.

[JHendy]

FF is off for the first 10 hours of gameplay on a character. Grief is still applied. Grief is only lost while playing.

We keep FF. Griefers will soon be grief locked. They can make a new account to grief, but that will require ten hours of playing to unlock the ability to tk. Grief only goes down while playing, so they cannot make 50 characters and keep cycling through them.


Thats about as tight as I can make it without getting a credit card involved.

First post on the forums, although I've been lurking for a while now.

Perhaps new players should have to reach a teamwork score that is roughly equivalent to ten hours played before FF is enabled, forcing them to actively participate in game play. I can see a lot of would-be hackers opening up multiple accounts and idling through the ten hour threshold.

Great community by the way. Seeing the devs participate as they do gives me very high hopes for PS2. Cheers.

[NickPapagiorgio]

Friendly Fire has to be on, at all times. Everything else will result in madness. Imagine 20 guys trying to push through a door:
With FF: The first few of the 20 that rush shoot, a few guys further back aim for the holes, others use weapons that have an arc to shoot their stuff over the friendly heads.

Without FF: Everyone just Spams crap.

Agreed. For an example of this, see Battlefield 3's "Metro" map with FF on (no spam) and FF off (neverending nade/rocket spam and 0 tactics).

[Gortha]

Friendly Fire has to be on, at all times. Everything else will result in madness. Imagine 20 guys trying to push through a door:
With FF: The first few of the 20 that rush shoot, a few guys further back aim for the holes, others use weapons that have an arc to shoot their stuff over the friendly heads.

Without FF: Everyone just Spams crap.

This!

And we need the PS1 RoE System back. But with harder restrictions/penalties for casual players.

If there is someone who just joins the game from time to time to ruin the Fun of others the RoE-system should hit him harder than an active player who accidentially hitted a few guys with a Grenade.

Perhaps SOE finds a way to implement something like this.

Greetz

[BlazingSun]

Just keep it as it was. More Game-Moderators this time around would be no mistake though.


If there is someone who just joins the game from time to time to ruin the Fun of others the RoE-system should hit him harder than an active player who accidentially hitted a few guys with a Grenade.


"Hit" is an irregular verb.
http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRNXHpoGXCyKmghCGWE8DtBl1_RGXxSL axptW_ExSeDqBuD9n4K

[Jaxbrain]

Yuuuuup

[ShowNoMercy]

Even with PS2 being F2P there won't be a significant TKing problem - Here's why. Once you get grief locked its effing boring. Even when PS1 had trial accounts TKing was not an issue that I saw; it was mainly just hacking. So in conclusion, mix a stiff drink and relax.