IMO KillCam killing the Game

[Lord Cosine]

Yeah that was a great reference I probably should have sited your death cam names in my example.

[Lord Cosine]

As I've said, what if you could choose to save a TF2-esque replay upon death? Simply putting a delay between someone dying and being able to see what happened would solve everyone's problems with this I think.

That could work, I'm curious though, what would the length of the delay be? What would the player do during that delay? Would the camera show the player dying or his enemy killing him?

Also I don't think I've ever seen an mmo implement replays. Sounds like that could be pretty difficult seeing as it would need to keep track of quite a few more players and bullets than CoD.

[Vancha]

That could work, I'm curious though, what would the length of the delay be? What would the player do during that delay? Would the camera show the player dying or his enemy killing him?

Also I don't think I've ever seen an mmo implement replays. Sounds like that could be pretty difficult seeing as it would need to keep track of quite a few more players and bullets than CoD.
I'm afraid I don't know how those replays operate. I don't know if they're client-side or server-side. All I know is that they record the placements rather than the image.

By "delay", I mean having to access replays from the Planetside/replays directory, or logging out and going to a replay section from the main menu.

[Raymac]

How would it work with cloakers??

Cloaker infiltrates a base, kills a defender from a good camping spot covering a few doorways for example. Dead guy on voice comm "Yeah he's in the corner by the crate".

Cloaker has to move to a less optimal position,or if darklight is in the game he's found in seconds.

In short, kill cam is good for FPS deathmatch but not for any objective based game with bases to defend/attack.

I'll disagree with you and Acosmo.

Cloakers have to move anyways. They either need to get right up on you to kill you, or take a bunch of shots from relatively short range to kill you. If a cloaker is anywhere near where he was when he killed me (and they kill me alot), then I find him easily with darklight and exact my revenge. This is in PS1 mind you.

Even without kill cams in the game, a cloaker still needs to move so your point is completely moot.

[acosmo]

there are a lot of reasons for and against killcam, but the only one of them that rings true for me is kill-cam's ability to detect hackers (as arclegger said). this should only be an issue if SOE is expecting players to be responsible for recording and reporting hackers (which we will have an excess of with PS2 being F2P)

[WaryWizard]

I'm still undecided. Honestly I really don't see what the big deal is unless you're camping.

Is there really such a thing as a "camper" in a game of this scale?

If you are sitting there shooting enemies, could that really be considered camping? Isn't camping more along the lines of waiting in one spot you KNOW the enemy will come from and kill them easily? That just seems like the defender's tactics. So killcam will only be a problem if you are defending. I'm sure that will NEVER:rolleyes: happen in planet side 2.

The killcam makes defending too hard. They already know pretty much where you are. You don't need to make it easier. We don't want a dossier of the guy that killed us every time we died.


I find killcams utterly useless. I never learned anything from them. Anything I could have learned I knew the moment I was shot at or the moment I died.
exg: I should have turned right instead of left, I need to pay more attention to objects like bushes,
I need to NOT miss with the fucking sniper rifle.
http://s3.roosterteeth.com/assets/store/product_1248577876.jpg

[Lord Cosine]

PS post-death cam
Pros:
-Allows players to notice adv.Medics.
-Gives players a chance to consider their next move.
-Does not compromise cloakers /snipers / Ordinance.
Cons:
-Disadvantageous to Defenders when corpse is in LoS.
-Does not help new players figure out what they did wrong.
-Can be boring (especially to new players) to stare at your dead body, or the map while waiting on respawn/rez.
-Gives away troop locations around the body


Showing who killed you last with what kind of shot.
Pros:
-Helps new players learn what they did wrong and how to improve (to what extent I'm not certain).
-Interesting to watch.
-Helps exposing annoying f2p hackers.
-More familiar for console players.
Cons:
-Disadvantageous to Defenders whenever an enemy is killed, as it gives away defending troop locations.
-Exposes enemy sniper/cloaker/ordinance locations.
-May obscure vision of nearby medic's attempts to rez player.


Showing what you did before you died
Pros:
-Helps new players learn what they did wrong and how to improve (to what extent I'm not certain). This probably is more helpful to new players than either of the other kill cams.
-Interesting to watch.
-Does not relay any current enemy troop locations.
Cons:
-May obscure vision of nearby medic's attempts to rez player.
-Reveals troop positions that the player did not see up until the point of their death.

Cam on detected post-death enemy
Pros:
-Helps new players out, giving them a very detailed explanation as to who killed them and where they got killed from.
-Helps exposing annoying f2p hackers.
Cons:
-Disadvantageous to Defenders whenever they kill someone and for X seconds afterwards while the fallen dude gives away valuable up to date troop locations.
-Even with this enemy info new players may still not benefit from it if they are not familiar with the map.
-Unavoidably reveals your location to whoever you kill, potentially hurting cloaker/sniper/ordinance gameplay.
-Gives a real time feed of enemy movement which could be relayed to allied troops to gain unfair advantages.
-No way to tell if someone is still watching/relaying your position.
-May obscure vision of nearby medic's attempts to rez player.

Replays Saved to Folder
Pros:
-Great source of information for new players and old grumpy vets alike.
-Does not reveal any troop locations till way after the fact.
-Great for sharing video with your friends/youtube.
-Very helpful for exposing annoying f2p hackers.
Cons:
-Not so accessible to new players.
-Could still potentially give away sneaky tactics.
-Would still need some in game death camera to compliment it otherwise the player would just be staring at a respawn timer.

I tried to outline some of the pros and cons of the different camera options, but I'm certain I missed a bunch of points, perhaps we can compile and agree upon a finalized list of pros/cons and use that to come up with a good comprise between the different death cams.

[Gortha]

Great summary Hamma. Thats why there is that much uproar with any mechanics taken from "modern" shooters.
We know what we want. Better game that was planetside1. Devs see way to make game better in incorporating mechanics from BF/COD while keeping planetside core mechanics. And thats what bugs ps1 vets, and then we yell about it :)

We are old grumpy folks, remembering good old games, fighting against younglings whose knows only modern games, over game mechanics. Sadly we will be overpopulated by them, so even if we yell all day, they will make game for them.

They don´t make the game for them, they should make the best game they could. For old folks as for the young.

This does not mean, they have to make a game more casual/more arcarde like as needed.
Even young folks would love the real challanging aspects of good old tactical
shooters, without grinding for weapons or some stupid medals...
The feeling of a real success like a Win, good moves, some amazing ultrakill-series, killing the guy in a 1on1 you were never able before - will be more satisfying than getting some medal for X Kills or the 10000th Reload of your weapon - even for young folks.

Making this or any game easier and easier, less challenging, "more console game-like"*sryconsoleheros* won´t satisfy the young more than keeping it "old school" / challanging, call it more "realistic" in the long RUN.

And PS2 should be a game for the long run. So don´t oversimplify the game,
and giving away free Intel via a KillCam simplifys the game and lessens the character of a real battle.

As i mentioned in a posting before.


KillCam is a No Go in E-Sports in Turnaments as in Leagues.
The simple reason is, that there is challenge and in Planetside2
there will be permanent challange.

A big enduring Clanwar over Auraxis.

There are NO Pros for KillCam. Just CONS.

[Gortha]

And what isn't what the PS1 vets want, is by definition a commercial succes?

And what if neither what the PS2 devs want or PS1 vets want is a commercial succes?

If we all know what's a commercial succes in advance, why are we discussing here? Sorry, but did you ask the masses what a succesful formula is? What if all these games were a succes DESPITE of a couple bad formulas in it?


Just saying, if you have an argument that cuts three ways and no evidence to back it up because it's basically moot, especially if it's an alternative to something that already worked pretty damn well, no need to bring it up. And please, don't make the (FPS) game industry into a new Hollywood. EA is doing that already.



But is anyone here saying PS1 failed because they lacked some minor features that "modern" FPS games have? (Read definition of "modern FPS" as: "game franchises that have remained almost unchanged as they've been selling the exact same games for the last 10 years in new graphics and on occasion with some new multiplayer maps next to a new single player campaign").

So if it had a proper killcam that showed your death and basically gave you a negative last impression because they rubbed in that you got killed would have actually made you want to play again? xD

So if we got killcams for EVERY SINGLE TIME you got spawncamped FROM THE PERSPECTIVE OF THE KILLER, ... that'd been a good thing, how?

Love you Figment :love::cheers:

[JHendy]

I'm an emphatic no. I want a "thinking persons shooter" experience from PS2.
If I wanted any CoD or BF elements I'd just play that.

^ Pretty much sums it up.

[Lord Cosine]

So first off, I love just about every aspect of the first planetside including the death camera they used. If I had my way CoD death cams would not make it into PS2.

However I'm certain there must be some benefits to the kill cams even if they have no place in ps2, or are minimal/debatable. If we can identify the reason a developer would include one into their game then perhaps we can offer an alternative that fulfills that the intended positive qualities while not not infringing upon the tactical nature of the first game.

Like if the reasoning is to help out new players, then perhaps there is a better alternative.

Like the PS1 death cam but with some added info, like an indicator for the AoE that just barely caught you, or a contrail from the bullet that ended your life. Perhaps a breakdown of all the targets that damaged you and with what in the last 20s. We could have this camera circle the player normally so it doesn't give away that cloaker on the roof, it only says you died from a grenade that was right here. Or a bullet from a AMP that came from behind you.

[Graywolves]

There's 111 of us, if we still hate it in beta, we'll threaten to all simultaneously Tbag every dev and smedly if it doesn't go.


Deal?

[Lord Cosine]

Beta is going to be very interesting hehe. I'm curious how vast the changes will be from beta till launch. If we have our way I'm sure it will be a very different sexy beast.

[FirstChaos]

kill cams are a horrid idea they only exist for super casual bad players so they can come back and kill you. IE if I'm a cloaker or sniper i don't want you to know where the hell I am .

[Tehroth]

In a game like this there shouldn't be any kill cams. Kind of ruins sneak attacks by showing numbers, position and classes. If you want that kind of information send out a scouting party.

[CutterJohn]

Gaming as we know it has become very cookie cutter.

Gaming has developed several standards for a few game archtypes, iterated and improved on over many years and many billions of dollars worth of development.

There are cookie cutter designs because they are popular and just plain work.

The mistake is thinking they are forever unchanging. Sure, PS is copying a lot of stuff from modern FPSs. But its also bringing a LOT of new stuff to the table. Its not just straight up copy/pasting.

[Crator]

I kind of like the idea of the kill cam cause you can have some fun with it. But, I do agree with most here that it probably shouldn't be in this game. Too much info gathering to be gained imo. Suppose it could be implemented in a way that might not do that but seems like most don't want it. And if it is in defiantly should have ability to toggle off.

This same sort of thing, that has the same if not more fun factor, can be done a different way. In fact one of our community members has a project going to stream live footage (with a delay to avoid giving info away)...

[Chinchy]

Of course myself and the majority of the playerbase do not want it, but since the COD/BF crowd do the team is going to put it in anyway. Not going to argue about it anymore myself.

I speak for that crowd and we don't like it either don't know why the AAA Devs think people like that crap.

[RadarX]

This has obviously been a very controversial topic for some of you. We want you to know we are of course reading through all this feedback.

If I could delve further though, are there restrictions that would make the kill cam bearable for those who are very against it?

[HitbackTR]

This has obviously been a very controversial topic for some of you. We want you to know we are of course reading through all this feedback.

If I could delve further though, are there restrictions that would make the kill cam bearable for those who are very against it?

Hi Radar. I am 99.999999999% against kill-cams in PS2 as I don't believe it is a feature which promotes the spirit of Planetside's unique gameplay. For me the only concession I would make is to have the ability to have kill-cam toggled off by me meaning that if I were to kill someone then the person would not be able to see where I was or where I was going because I had turned it off. Problem solved right? This, for me at least, is the ONLY way I could condone it being in game.

I believe if you are doing the killing then the advantage should remain with you as you earned it. Also the option to give up that advantage should also be your choice to give up instead of if being a default feature of the game which rewards the victim with info about your whereabouts, (intended or otherwise) after dying.

[Vancha]

This has obviously been a very controversial topic for some of you. We want you to know we are of course reading through all this feedback.

If I could delve further though, are there restrictions that would make the kill cam bearable for those who are very against it?

Assuming snipers exist entirely within the infiltrator class? Giving infiltrators (and thus snipers as well) an in-built way to avoid being "kill-cammed" would seem to make the most sense (speculatively), or perhaps it could be an infiltrator skill with a relatively small training time? I know having anti-killcam as an implant has been mentioned, but if implant slots are limited, it'd be the same problem that infiltrators had with sensor shield in PS1 - automatically losing an implant slot for something that was practically mandatory.

Edit: Then again, I'm mistakenly assuming that other classes wouldn't have an issue with this.

Edit II: To put it bluntly, if kill cams didn't reveal people's locations, I imagine it'd be bearable for most people who have a problem with it.

Edit III: What if the kill cam itself was an implant (again, assuming implant slots are precious), and infiltrators (and thus snipers) had a skill they could train to block it? That would almost make it bearable. :p

[VioletZero]

This has obviously been a very controversial topic for some of you. We want you to know we are of course reading through all this feedback.

If I could delve further though, are there restrictions that would make the kill cam bearable for those who are very against it?

I like the idea of, instead of watching it while waiting to respawn, they are stored for later viewing. For a limited time of course.

[acosmo]

In My Opinion the origin of the killcam into fps games was to get rid of campers (nobody liked campers in the old fps days). Now designers use it to help them flesh out hackers, help new players, and give insight to an experienced player as to why he died. It's not there to break immersion and mess up the guy who's getting the kills.

these aren't the old fps days, and camping was only disliked in games without a strategic focus (quake/counterstrike/unreal tournament).

experienced players do not need insight into why they might have died. they understand the scale of the combat they're in and acknowledge the risks in their decisions.

i understand killcams can be useful in spotting hackers, but even mentioning this as support for killcams hints at a possibility that SOE may not be prepared for handling hackers and exploiters.

in response to your question, RadarX, killcam could still be employed for the purposes of helping new players understand the game. once players reach a certain rank, or level of experience, however, they would cease to have a killcam handicap.

[WaryWizard]

This has obviously been a very controversial topic for some of you. We want you to know we are of course reading through all this feedback.

If I could delve further though, are there restrictions that would make the kill cam bearable for those who are very against it?

the restriction that would make me happiest is the ability to make it where I can't see it. Personally I don't care a hole lot if my enemies have killcam. I just hate having to skip it everytime I die. When I play COD the moment I die I skip. When I play battlefield I look at my layout and check my gear till I can respawn. I just don't use it in any form cause I find it useless.(previous posts of mine further expand on that) :(

I would rather have an auto skip option.:) plz :D

[BigBossMonkey]

This has obviously been a very controversial topic for some of you. We want you to know we are of course reading through all this feedback.

If I could delve further though, are there restrictions that would make the kill cam bearable for those who are very against it?

Put a skill somewhere in each class tree for disabling killcams if they want (early on in the tree)

That way it doesn't kill implant slots, and everyone is happy.

If people want to leave killcams on, they are on. If they don't then they have the option of disabling them.

[Jimmuc]

in response to your question, RadarX, killcam could still be employed for the purposes of helping new players understand the game. once players reach a certain rank, or level of experience, however, they would cease to have a killcam handicap.

i find that pretty reasonable, gets my vote. i'd say like BR2-3 perhaps but im thinking that getting to an new BR would take some time with the EVE style cert progression.

[CutterJohn]

I know having anti-killcam as an implant has been mentioned, but if implant slots are limited, it'd be the same problem that infiltrators had with sensor shield in PS1 - automatically losing an implant slot for something that was practically mandatory.

Not quite the same. You can work around people knowing where you were by staying mobile. You couldn't really work around a lack of sensor shield unless you gimped your loadout with jammers. With kill cams, you just cloak and move away.



@Radarx - I'm not one of those vehemently against killcams, but I would greatly prefer it be one like CoD has, where its a replay, and not a BF3 style, where it just shows you what they are doing now.

[HitbackTR]

Put a skill somewhere in each class tree for disabling killcams if they want (early on in the tree)

That way it doesn't kill implant slots, and everyone is happy.

If people want to leave killcams on, they are on. If they don't then they have the option of disabling them.

Well I don't think that I should have to waste/use an implant slot to get rid of a feature of the game that I don't want included when I could be using it on another implant which would enhance game-play. Sure, you may argue I don't have to use the implant slot for that but as I don't agree with the concept of kill-cams in Planet-side I will have to won't I.

[Vancha]

Not quite the same. You can work around people knowing where you were by staying mobile. You couldn't really work around a lack of sensor shield unless you gimped your loadout with jammers. With kill cams, you just cloak and move away.
I used the words "practically mandatory" for a reason. I can't say for certain because I haven't played the game yet, but it seems highly likely that anyone who calls themselves a sniper would consider an anti-kill cam implant - if it were an implant - mandatory.

[acosmo]

@ all you implant fetishists, this idea combines my previous idea and the implant idea:

how about making the ability to use kill cam into an implant? in fact, have this implant be with your character since it is made.

you cannot change this implant out for anything else until you gain a certain rank/level of experience, whereupon you may switch your killcam implant out for something else or choose to keep it.

[Vancha]

I like the idea of, instead of watching it while waiting to respawn, they are stored for later viewing. For a limited time of course.
This would also be fine for me, but technically I imagine it being less feasible (but if not, then great). Though there are still people who'd dislike having others see their clever hiding locations.

[CutterJohn]

I used the words "practically mandatory" for a reason. I can't say for certain because I haven't played the game yet, but it seems highly likely that anyone who calls themselves a sniper would consider an anti-kill cam implant - if it were an implant - mandatory.

I don't see why. It would only be kind of important if you were trying to some lone wolf elite sniper. Plenty of snipers will be sniping in a gaggle on top of a hill with a sunderer/gal nearby and aa cover, their position immediately apparent to anyone with a pair of brain cells to rub together, or will just be a squad sniper while running with the squad, ready to poke at HA users or people in turrets or something.

Not a lot of people would consider it necessary. The act of shooting still gives your position away to anyone who can see it. Not having the implant means one person is guaranteed to know your general position, but does not guarantee nobody else saw the tracer. It also does not guarantee the person will immediately drop everything to seek revenge, nor does it guarantee they will care enough to report your position, nor does it mean they are in a squad that they can report it too, nor does it mean that they will be able to give quick and accurate locational data, nor does it guarantee the squad will drop everything to immediately go hunt you down, nor does it mean you won't have the opportunity to relocate before anyone gets to your previous position(you are a sniper, after all.. they tend to be a ways off). And all of that only applies if you are actively trying to hide your position.

Having the implant is simply not much of an advantage, and the intel the enemy gets not very special.

[Lonehunter]

Kill Cams have only existed in small, kill-count based games set up in special matches based on total score or time limit.

Planetside is not small
Planetside is not based on your kill count
Planetside doesn't have matches

Planetside is an ongoing war. Sure we may pay attention to who has the most kills but any PS vet will tell you that doesn't make them the best player. Because PS is more about tactics then any other FPS, revealing the enemy's position after a kill really changes the dynamic of game play.

I don't give a shit about the guys who want to try to track down the guy who shot them, or the guys who want to taunt on a kill cam. I'm concerned about the Sniper on a ridge giving away the Galaxy behind him on a kill cam. The Galaxy gunner getting a kill and the cam revealing he's the only gunner. Plus we're getting a closer look at customizations on weapons and vehicles. There's all kinds of little details a vet can use to gain a tactical advantage of that area, and it just doesn't seem right to reward those by getting killed and watching a kill cam.

[ThGlump]

Killcam is benefit. It helps you against others (know they location, learn etc). And as such you should pay for it. Make it you need implant for it (first 5 BR its free).

[Marth Koopa]

This has obviously been a very controversial topic for some of you. We want you to know we are of course reading through all this feedback.

If I could delve further though, are there restrictions that would make the kill cam bearable for those who are very against it?

Giving snipers a "no killcam" skill would be the easiest way. It's not like a killcam is going to affect other classes who are going to be on the move all the time.

Also, I would really like to be able to turn off viewing killcams outright. To be perfectly honest, it would be immersion-breaking for me to see my killer. When I die, I want to see the dirt in my face.

[WaryWizard]

Killcam is benefit. It helps you against others (know they location, learn etc). And as such you should pay for it. Make it you need implant for it (first 5 BR its free).

I agree with this. to a point.Make the Newberts pay for a flawed mechanism they will hate.:lol:~evil

There will still be suicide scouts (SS) running around getting intel, but now they will need money to get this ability.

[VioletZero]

This would also be fine for me, but technically I imagine it being less feasible (but if not, then great). Though there are still people who'd dislike having others see their clever hiding locations.

Given how kill-cams usually work in games, I doubt it will be a big deal.

Just give them a good expiry and limit people based on how many deaths they're allowed to store.

[RodenyC]

This has obviously been a very controversial topic for some of you. We want you to know we are of course reading through all this feedback.

If I could delve further though, are there restrictions that would make the kill cam bearable for those who are very against it?
I think it was this thread that someone suggested that killcam should be on until say BR10.I'm not sure how BR will work in PS2 but something along those lines would be nice.If not turned off make it a option in the settings at that rank.So if I have killcam off it shows the person I just killed the background from where they were killed at or the base closest to them.

[CidHighwind]

This has obviously been a very controversial topic for some of you. We want you to know we are of course reading through all this feedback.

If I could delve further though, are there restrictions that would make the kill cam bearable for those who are very against it?

To make the Killcam more bearable, I would first and foremost like it to be acknowledged that there are two distinct uses for killcams from a player perspective.

First, It is used simply as a way for individual players who heavily stress K/D ratios to moan and complain about how Bull**** that last kill was, and how the game is broken without repair or suggestion.

Secondly, it is used by tactical minds to gather information surrounding the area of death to avoid near future deaths, and to "meta-game" - i.e. obtain and use information that they might not normally be able to gain through regular means (read, having not died) to gain an advantage.

To correct this problem, I would suggest this. A simple two option toggle in game. Each player has the option to turn off or on the ability to VIEW their own deaths, as well as the option to have others view their kills.

This makes everyone as happy as possible in this situation. Those that like to know will occasionally be allowed to see their deaths :evil:, but only by those who don't care if they are seen. I do recognize the fact that others might be affected by another players indifference, but in a unfair world, sometimes we need to compromise.

A second suggestion, though I like this one less, is to have a view station available in all bases to empires who currently control bio labs. Use of the terminal costs resources to view your most recent death. Thematically this would be cool, as it could be like the NS machinery recording your last iterations final seconds. The more resources you spend, the more you can see --- Name of player, visible radius surrounding the scene of death, Number of shots it took to die, the accuracy of the shooter.... This creates another resource drain, satisfies the first type of player who uses kill cams to b****, and also allows the second type of player to do what they like - analyze data. :groovy:

Just my block thoughts.

[CutterJohn]

I think it was this thread that someone suggested that killcam should be on until say BR10.I'm not sure how BR will work in PS2 but something along those lines would be nice.If not turned off make it a option in the settings at that rank.So if I have killcam off it shows the person I just killed the background from where they were killed at or the base closest to them.

To correct this problem, I would suggest this. A simple two option toggle in game. Each player has the option to turn off or on the ability to VIEW their own deaths, as well as the option to have others view their kills.

If its optional it serves no purpose. Even people who do not think it gives enough advantage to worry about still recognize it gives some, and given the choice would turn it off because there is no downside.

Saying make it optional is exactly the same as saying don't have it at all. The only way to make it optional in practice is to require you sacrifice for turning it off. Or on, depending how they want to play it. Though I seriously can't imagine anyone thinks a killcam would be enough benefit to sacrifice a slot to be able to access them.

[CidHighwind]

Half serious, half not:

How about an engineering deployable (high in the tree) that would allow kill cams within a certain radius (call it a Nanite-recorder?). Would force an engineer to get close enough to that Gal to plant the device, meaning they would need to know where that Gal was in the first place, and would give engineers a stealthy aspect?

Get enough tactically minded engineers together, and it would create logistical efforts to triangulate enemy positions using the device(s).

[Haurus]

I feel like the kill cam will get old quick. In it's day, I sometimes played PS1 for up to 6 hours at a time, having a blast. That's much longer than I ever played any other fps in one session. The extended play time plus the potential to die a lot because of the number of players can result in the kill can getting annoying. I start hitting buttons when the BF3 kill cam comes on fruitlessly trying to skip it. I just don't care and it gives the impression that it is wasting my time.

I never play sniper but I can see it being a pain for them. A sniper can find a great nest and the first guy he takes out calls in his position over com and he is reaver fodder.

[basti]

This has obviously been a very controversial topic for some of you. We want you to know we are of course reading through all this feedback.

If I could delve further though, are there restrictions that would make the kill cam bearable for those who are very against it?

I have no issues with someone seeing how I killed them, so a way to not force me to watch a kill cam when I die would be perfect. Maybe a option in the game settings, maybe a skill. :)

[EVILoHOMER]

With a game that has as many players as Planetside 2 will.

The odds of you killing someone and the following happens:
They see your killcam/position
They wait to respawn (most likely not exactly at the same spot they died)
They find you (how this happens again is beyond me, enough time has passed that I guarantee you're not in the same position anymore where the player first saw you on the killcam)
That same person kills you because they saw your killcam.

All that happens before you die yourself, or they die again.

The server pop must be incredibly low.

Also, if I die and I see a killcam of 1 guy but the reason I died is because it was a huge 20v20 infantry standoff I don't see how the killcam ruins the game?

For the snipers, I love kill cams if I'm a sniper. I can kill a guy, then go and find a new spot. That guy sees my kill cam and tries to find me at the same spot and I kill him again because I moved 20 yards. Rinse Repeat.

In My Opinion the origin of the killcam into fps games was to get rid of campers (nobody liked campers in the old fps days). Now designers use it to help them flesh out hackers, help new players, and give insight to an experienced player as to why he died. It's not there to break immersion and mess up the guy who's getting the kills.

For the record I'm not in charge of what happens when it comes to killcam, I'm just throwing in my perspective as a player/lover of fps games. I'm for the killcam, but that's just me.

Kill cams make death satisfying and while players moaning about it will still stick around, players who hate dying will leave if it doesn't have it in. COD has proven over the years that people love them and TF2 has only cemented this as they're a great laugh. I'd love to be able to take a picture of my rival killing me and having banter on the forums.

Besides if you're going to camp then you deserve to be killed and like you said I don't ever remember a time in Planetside where I stayed in one place for very long. Advance players will always remember the points where people tend to stick in and defend kill cams wont hurt that.

[Coreldan]

I feel like the kill cam will get old quick. In it's day, I sometimes played PS1 for up to 6 hours at a time, having a blast. That's much longer than I ever played any other fps in one session. The extended play time plus the potential to die a lot because of the number of players can result in the kill can getting annoying. I start hitting buttons when the BF3 kill cam comes on fruitlessly trying to skip it. I just don't care and it gives the impression that it is wasting my time.

I never play sniper but I can see it being a pain for them. A sniper can find a great nest and the first guy he takes out calls in his position over com and he is reaver fodder.

This, I feel at the very least it needs to be skippable, and another thing at the very least for the cloakers sake is to disable kill cam if killer had cloak enabled (shouldnt be too hard to do?). Cos the snipers are known to have cloaks (although weaker) too.

Other thing was brought up was that what if someone dies to a mine that an engi put down long ago, would the killcam jump all the way to the engi at the current time where he might be fe. organizing a gal drop?

I also like the idea of being able to just disable it - you wont see where your killers are, they wont see where you are when you kill them. A fair tradeoff.

And yes, I can really 1 to the "fruitless smashing of buttons after a while of BF3 trying to skip the killcam". Worst is when you try to quit the game but the killcam overrides any menu and forces you to watch it.

[EVILoHOMER]

I feel like the kill cam will get old quick. In it's day, I sometimes played PS1 for up to 6 hours at a time, having a blast. That's much longer than I ever played any other fps in one session. The extended play time plus the potential to die a lot because of the number of players can result in the kill can getting annoying. I start hitting buttons when the BF3 kill cam comes on fruitlessly trying to skip it. I just don't care and it gives the impression that it is wasting my time.

I never play sniper but I can see it being a pain for them. A sniper can find a great nest and the first guy he takes out calls in his position over com and he is reaver fodder.


Never got bored of them in TF2, especially with all the emotes.

Unlike BF3 the battle will be constantly changing over a dynamic map and not a small BF3 one.

[CidHighwind]

Killcams only available when an empire controls an interlink facility.

[Princess Frosty]

Absolutely not, why should the person dying be given intel on how they died? That's going to ruin sniping, it's going to ruin infiltrating.

[Figment]

@radarx: Something akin to the original post-mortem cam in PS would be okay with all I think: we all know its limitations.

If there is one, evaluate what you can derive in Intel and keep that as limited as possible.

A version I could easily live with is an implant for the guy who died. I'd prefer it to be a post deathcam looking in the direction of the kill on the horizontal and slowly panning/rotating randomly in the general direction for just a few seconds without zooming in, then returning to bodycam. Should give an idea, but no specifics about exact spot and height, nothing you could not see had you looked in that direction.

I would consider this a form of recon implant. Since you give up another combat advantage for that life, it'd be fair as you'd use the info the next life while you still have to spot by yourself.

[CutterJohn]

I would consider this a form of recon implant. Since you give up another combat advantage for that life, it'd be fair as you'd use the info the next life while you still have to spot by yourself.

Considering the great majority of the time it will be pretty apparent who and what you died from, I can't imagine anyone sacrificing an implant slot to get a view of the rare death that came from unknown source.

Its not very good intel.

[Sheppe]

Ps2 won't be an arena-like game with sides competing to get a certain amount of kills, so it doesn't need a killcam so you can go and camp the guy that killed you.

However

Presumably medic's will be able to resuscitate downed players, if there's no kill-cam or period of time when the person's body remains on the floor, how can they be res'd?

[Justaman]

these aren't the old fps days, and camping was only disliked in games without a strategic focus (quake/counterstrike/unreal tournament).

experienced players do not need insight into why they might have died. they understand the scale of the combat they're in and acknowledge the risks in their decisions.

i understand killcams can be useful in spotting hackers, but even mentioning this as support for killcams hints at a possibility that SOE may not be prepared for handling hackers and exploiters.


Yes, but, you have to consider the inexperienced players as well.

Wile I'm against kill cams, I still think they are a great learning tool.

So what I propose, is rather than put kill cams into ps2, as an easy /wipehandsandpatourselvesonthebackitsfinished feature, give the game the option to parse all of the combat, so that it can be replayed by the client later on. When using this feature, it will highlight specific points along a time line that represent points of interest (that can be changed from defaults by the player) such as deaths, kills, cirtain things exploding. W/E might be significant.


This way, someone who wants to see why they died, or what they can learn from the events from a new perspective, they can. Wile at the same time, not changing the meta game by requiring people to consider kill cams in their strategy.

This also allows people to notice hackers all the same.

Implementing this sort of "combat playback" , would appease both sides of the fence in my opinion.





Ps2 won't be an arena-like game with sides competing to get a certain amount of kills, so it doesn't need a killcam so you can go and camp the guy that killed you.

However

Presumably medic's will be able to resuscitate downed players, if there's no kill-cam or period of time when the person's body remains on the floor, how can they be res'd?

By making sure that players are aware of what support classes are near them before hand, so that they can anticipate the opportunity for a res.

Also, your argument only applies to people who don't operate with an outfit, as they are organized enough to know what each other is doing.

What they should add to solve this problem, is, ON DEATH, or rather, wile you are dead, a flashing indicator that represents there being a medic close by that is capable of ressing you (so immediate respawn might not be the best option, use your own judgment). It might even show how far away and what direction. Or maybe its a skill of the medic them selves, that they can use to alert corpses :P

That way, even solo players would realise there is an opportunity for ressurection.

[texico]

We're calling it more of a war simulator and adding imersion enhancing things like a sprint mechanic and iron sights/real aiming mechanics is catering?
Battlefield is FPS franchise I currently play most and I wouldn't usually play a game like Planetside? I did play Planetside for several years. I liked it a lot. But to say that certain mechanics don't belong in the game through some kind of Planetside purity argument is silly.
Comming back for a while last summer it feels floaty, disconnected, and, frankly it's a crap shooter. The only thing it has going for it, in terms of game mechanics, is the scale.

The less of PS1's acctual fighting mechanics that survive into PS2, the better.

PS1 "vets", and especially current players, need to get over this idea that the new game should conform to junky mechanics that were, basically, the product of techincal limitations when the game was being developed.

I meant it's catering for the particular players of battlefield and call of Duty (henceforce collectively known as CallField for simplicity) who wouldn't play a game like PlanetSide (which is probably a reasonable chunk).

I don't see how PlanetSide 1 is broken. I play TF2 regularly but I have also played the latest CallFields and PlanetSide feels a hell of a lot better (the shooting mechanics in particular over TF2).

[Sabrak]

This has obviously been a very controversial topic for some of you. We want you to know we are of course reading through all this feedback.

If I could delve further though, are there restrictions that would make the kill cam bearable for those who are very against it?


Ummm...

What I'm about to say might sound stupid, but yeah... I'll say it anyway.

If KillCam HAS to be in PS2, and that I could choose its form, I'd say: make it so that it doesn't show anything going on "around" the scene.

Don't let us see a foot away from the shooter.
Fill the "holes" with some kind of virtual blur, so you can't see where he exactly was, but still can understand he was hiding behind a rock.

Show him taking the shot, and then follow the last bullet (the fatal one) going to you, still in a "virtual" view, so you have an idea of how far he was, but not of what or who is between you and him.
Then, a view of your guy dieing.

Finally, it could go back to the shooter, showing him in a sort of picture or a slow-mo (virtual stuff all around, you got it), with infos on him like his name, empire, outfit, battle rank, and maybe the weapon/vehicule he used to kill you.


tl;dr: don't show anything substantial around the shooter and his line of sight. Hide it with some kind of stylish sensor-disruptor effect.

That's the only kind of killcam that would be ok to me.
The one that doesn't show you any kind of intel on your enemy's situation on the battlefield.

[Figment]

Considering the great majority of the time it will be pretty apparent who and what you died from, I can't imagine anyone sacrificing an implant slot to get a view of the rare death that came from unknown source.

Its not very good intel.

It's not about who and what, it's about who, what general area and what else may be there. If you merely look in the general direction you'd get to see things you otherwise would not have seen. Considering you would lie there watching for a while after death, you have time to observe without having to worry about cover.

As others have noted, there's plenty to see a short time after a death.

Not sure what you compare it with, but I compare any cam with not having a cam at all. You seem concerned mostly with what killed you, while if you were interested in recon intel enough to get the implant, you'd get it because you'd want to estimate the threat, the angles and see if you can't figure out the location by seeing some movement for yourself.

More than enough intel to get for your next life and your buddies in those 4-5 seconds!

[Gandhi]

I think we're confusing terms a bit here. To me a kill cam shows the player who killed me, either replaying how he killed me or showing him just after he did. Anything else isn't really a kill cam, it's just a normal 'death cam' like we had in PS1.

In other words, you can have a delay after dying that shows you your body and your surroundings without having a kill cam. Personally I think this is the best solution, because I don't think showing the killer really teaches you anything other than where good camping spots are on maps you haven't played before. Am I missing anything else you can learn from kill cams that can't be learned through other things?

[waldizzo]

I'm against kill cam's in this game, but understand why it'll most likely be an included feature.

If it must be in the game, I'd rather see the kill cam be a fixed camera, behind the shoulder 3rd person replay of the player that got killed. Say the last 10 seconds before death. This seems like a middle ground between a player figuring out what happened to them but yet also keeping the exact location of the killer ambiguous.

For a sniper example: I'm running across an open field and i get sniped in the face. While I'm on the spawn screen, I'd see a 3rd person reply of myself running across an open field and getting sniped. I'd know the general direction of the sniper (which I'd already know from hit detectors), but not the exact location.

For a general crazyness example: I'm taking part in a base attack, running through the hallways and clearing rooms. Some guy with a JH comes up behind me and shoots me in the back. I go to the spawn screen and see some NC unloading into my back. Again, I'd get some vision into what happened to me and what I could do better. That NC is long gone by the time I get back there.

This is a "best of both worlds" solution in my opinion. I think this solution will also provide hilarious videos.

[IronMole]

Kill cam should not be in game - it's just a waste of animation/memory and bandwidth.

Keep it to how PS has it, rotating camera of death.

[CutterJohn]

It's not about who and what, it's about who, what general area and what else may be there. If you merely look in the general direction you'd get to see things you otherwise would not have seen. Considering you would lie there watching for a while after death, you have time to observe without having to worry about cover.

That depends entirely on how the cam operates. If it is centered on your character, it wouldn't let you see that sort of stuff.

And I question the value of any of this intel. This is planetside. You're not exactly getting intel on the opposing fleets doctrine and resistance holes, or the password to get inside some enemy station for the fight tomorrow night. Secrets don't last long because people are everywhere, and theres just no point. Theres not going to be 20 guys hiding in a room in the base that you'll accidentally discover. They will be fighting and making their presence known. You're not going to discover a gal.. Aircav and cloakers will have a bead on them right away.

People are acting like this game is way more in depth than it is. Theres not much room for guile or subterfuge.

[TheRagingGerbil]

Why are we arguing over a mechanic that we have no idea how it is even going to be implemented?

[acosmo]

because after 19 pages, radarx kind of made it into a new thread
This has obviously been a very controversial topic for some of you. We want you to know we are of course reading through all this feedback.

If I could delve further though, are there restrictions that would make the kill cam bearable for those who are very against it?

so far, ideas 1 and 2.

in response to your question, RadarX, killcam could still be employed for the purposes of helping new players understand the game. once players reach a certain rank, or level of experience, however, they would cease to have a killcam handicap.

how about making the ability to use kill cam into an implant? in fact, have this implant be with your character since it is made. you cannot change this implant out for anything else until you gain a certain rank/level of experience, whereupon you may switch your killcam implant out for something else or choose to keep it.

[texico]

I think the intel thing is the biggest concern. It will feel very unnatural and feel a little unfair if everyone who dies gets a valuable information about the location of a person and what's around him. Example, in TF2 this morning, I got killed by a demoman. My immediate reaction was to spawn a scout and go after him, but I noticed on the killcam he was standing with a sentry just around the corner. So I spawned a spy, sappered it and stabbed him.

I didn't have to learn that info myself, the kill-cam gave me it, and I used the mechanic to win.

So yeah, if you want restriction ideas, then as has been said just displaying the character in some kind of black background so the details of what's around him can't be seen is the best way to go.

Although I also like the idea of having a normal killcam for low-battlerank characters (like >BR6 in PS) so brand new players might be able to learn from it, but it can't be used by veterans as an advantage.

[Vancha]

Why are we arguing over a mechanic that we have no idea how it is even going to be implemented?
Because we do have some idea how it'll be implemented.

I'd say read the thread, but it's 22 pages. Use the "search this thread" tool and look for "ornament".

I don't see why. It would only be kind of important if you were trying to some lone wolf elite sniper. Plenty of snipers will be sniping in a gaggle on top of a hill with a sunderer/gal nearby and aa cover, their position immediately apparent to anyone with a pair of brain cells to rub together, or will just be a squad sniper while running with the squad, ready to poke at HA users or people in turrets or something.
Sometimes you say some daft things, John.

Yes, decent snipers will, very often, try and find a better spot than the gaggle of snipers sitting directly opposite the enemy. Generally any spot other than where the gaggle of snipers congregate is a better spot than where the gaggle of snipers are, because there aren't a gaggle of snipers there.

Not a lot of people would consider it necessary. The act of shooting still gives your position away to anyone who can see it. Not having the implant means one person is guaranteed to know your general position, but does not guarantee nobody else saw the tracer. It also does not guarantee the person will immediately drop everything to seek revenge, nor does it guarantee they will care enough to report your position, nor does it mean they are in a squad that they can report it too, nor does it mean that they will be able to give quick and accurate locational data, nor does it guarantee the squad will drop everything to immediately go hunt you down, nor does it mean you won't have the opportunity to relocate before anyone gets to your previous position(you are a sniper, after all.. they tend to be a ways off). And all of that only applies if you are actively trying to hide your position.

Having the implant is simply not much of an advantage, and the intel the enemy gets not very special.
Did you watch either of the videos posted in the "Making Snipers useful." thread? Most people don't pay attention to their hit indicators and tracers in the way you're describing. That's why they were able to sit where they were and do their thing for as long as they did.

If you got killed by a sniper and had a kill cam of their location, would you honestly neither try and kill him nor communicate his position? The only time I can remember someone leaving me alone once they realized where I was, was when they found my position enough of a novelty that they wanted to see how long it took for someone else to realize where I was.

[TheRagingGerbil]

Because we do have some idea how it'll be implemented.

I'd say read the thread, but it's 22 pages. Use the "search this thread" tool and look for "ornament".


I will stand by my statement. Just because Higby comes out and says that the novelty items glued on my tank will be visible in the killcam does not mean that my position is going to be given away.

Based off of what he said, the kill cam may only show you the platinum "PWNAGE" pendant hanging on the iced-out chain around my neck as I take your head off with my BoltDriver.

But seriously, the kill cam will most likely show my character model and the weapon I used to kill you with on a blurred background.

[Vancha]

But seriously, the kill cam will most likely show my character model and the weapon I used to kill you with on a blurred background.
Unidentifiable/removed terrain would be fine, but if you're being serious, I don't know why you think that's the most likely scenario?

[CutterJohn]

Yes, decent snipers will, very often, try and find a better spot than the gaggle of snipers sitting directly opposite the enemy. Generally any spot other than where the gaggle of snipers congregate is a better spot than where the gaggle of snipers are, because there aren't a gaggle of snipers there.

Sure they will. Probably even score a few kills too, before being seen and taken out/driven off.


Did you watch either of the videos posted in the "Making Snipers useful." thread? Most people don't pay attention to their hit indicators and tracers in the way you're describing. That's why they were able to sit where they were and do their thing for as long as they did.

In almost all of them he was either seen very shortly after shooting and fire was returned. In most of the ones where he wasn't seen, its because there was a bunch of other things right near him(i.e. in the gaggle/on top of the base defending/etc). The ones where it was just him and another person.. the target saw.

And even if you are seen fire may not be returned. I rarely certed sniper rifles. If I got sniped, I stayed in cover. I knew where it was coming from, I just lacked the tools or the will to take care of it, because snipers were not a very big concern. Its an anti infantry unit in an area where vehicles largely dominate infantry anyway.

Most do pay attention. Finding an annoying sniper was never an issue. Snipers are just not the biggest threat, and don't rate dropping everything to go take care of. If they are by themselves, they will be taken care of shortly.

I don't care one way or the other about kill cams, I can take em or leave em. I would love to see them do an experiment in beta. 1 day, kill cams on. Next day, kill cams off. I'm very curious what the difference in K/D ratios would be. My surmise is not very different.

[Vancha]

Sure they will. Probably even score a few kills too, before being seen and taken out/driven off.
Yeah, you really rarely certed sniper rifles.

Most do pay attention. Finding an annoying sniper was never an issue. Snipers are just not the biggest threat, and don't rate dropping everything to go take care of. If they are by themselves, they will be taken care of shortly.
Ah, that explains why targets would take cover behind something and still remain in clear view of my sights (you can see this in AlienMouse's video).

And yeah, no kidding you need distractions to remain unnoticed. People will only assume they're being shot from the direction of the enemy if there's enemies within their LOS.

[MpS]

This has obviously been a very controversial topic for some of you. We want you to know we are of course reading through all this feedback.

If I could delve further though, are there restrictions that would make the kill cam bearable for those who are very against it?

Overall I would say no, I just think the kill cam is a horrible idea for planetside 2 and there isn't anything that could be done that would make it bearable in my mind (assuming we are talking about a kill cam that works like traditional kill cams, I.E. you see where the person is, how and what they killed you with etc, somewhere where it only shows the player model and their weapon could be reasonable). The kill cam is just too much for planetside 2, adding a kill cam just makes it seem like this FPS is trying to copy what the other successful FPSs are doing, but this game isn't just going to be another modern FPS clone, it will redefine the FPS genre. You can't go copying what the other FPSs do here. This is a situation where the ideals of planetside need to be re-imagined into what will be the greatest FPS of our time, not some modern warfare or battlefield duplicate. A kill cam is just not the way to go here.

[Tool]

I guess it really boils down to what type of game ps2 is aiming to be. Is it going to be a more realistic combined arms military experience or lean more to the arcade speedy arena shooters that often feature killcams?

Is it game where intelligence on enemy locations is valuable and generally requires effort and communication to obtain? If so then a killcam in any form is detrimental and unecessary.

Is it a game where the action is non stop with little thought given as to where enemies will be because its generally obvious and the kill is more important. Then a killcam will make little difference.

If killcams are there to aid new players, your going to remove a huge portion of the learning curve ps1 had. That baptism by fire often led to players with better situational awareness in any environment, thus better players.

If killcams are there to show off all the fancy customization and graphics, there's more reasonable ways to accomplish this. An interactive web based profile viewer on the official site can display the same things without the detrimental side effect killcams have.

[Gandhi]

If killcams are there to show off all the fancy customization and graphics, there's more reasonable ways to accomplish this. An interactive web based profile viewer on the official site can display the same things without the detrimental side effect killcams have.
I've actually been toying with this idea. You could have an interactive 3D render of your character (or anyone else) on a website thanks to WebGL, and that would run on any modern browser so long as you have a graphics card. The only problem is because of the way it works all the art assets used for it would be open to the public, and most companies aren't eager to share things like character models or textures.

http://mrdoob.github.com/three.js/examples/webgl_materials_cubemap.html

[BorgUK]

Kill cam will reduce support for team play by attracting the kill whores, this will of course mean the hacking will start as they go for there 99 to 1 kill ratios.

Like 3rd person inside buildings, its got to be a no.

[Duddy]

I've thought about this for a while, and what occurs to me is that for your general combat situation, a kill cam does not matter as it does not really cause any harm to your killer.

The main complaint comes from those that need to be somewhat conspicuous, which would account to the recon class in PS2.

So perhaps instead of fighting the Killcam, just have a skill and/or implant that can block it?

You could go the other way and make the kill(/info?) cam something people have to pick up themselves. However I think if the intent is to allow people to learn from their mistakes through the use of it, then making it an opt-in would mean a lot of people who perhaps should get it might not.

I think what we need to hear is what the intent of the system is from the team, as that makes a major difference in how to approach it.

[Lunarchild]

To start out, I think the killcam as it is in CoD works is fine. As this game is going to be a lot faster paced than the original Planetside I doubt it is that bad. That said I can understand some of the reservations people have.

That said, almost all shooters have something to show when people die. To give you a breather in between the action. Here's some I remember:


Death-cam where you see your corpse - usually at an angle at which you can also see the person that killed you. (UT?)
Death-cam where you see your corpse top-down (Planetside only)
Cam where you look at the person that killed you (snapped) - (Quake, APB)
Kill-cam: See the last 5 seconds up to your death through the eyes of the killer. (COD:MW)
Kill-snapshot: Get a snapshot of your dead body / gibs and the enemy (TF2)
Spectate your own team (COD:MW - Hardcore, various others)
Specate the person that killed you from right in front (BF3 :/)
Just scoreboard


Now there's plenty more. Now the kill-cam is the only one that allows you to learn from your own mistakes. The kill-cam is also the most detrimental against campers and hackers. The worst part about the kill-cam, however, is that it really makes you aware of client-server lag (especially with client-authoritive networking), and actually takes quite a bit of data to stream over correctly.

Ummm...

What I'm about to say might sound stupid, but yeah... I'll say it anyway.

If KillCam HAS to be in PS2, and that I could choose its form, I'd say: make it so that it doesn't show anything going on "around" the scene.

Don't let us see a foot away from the shooter.
Fill the "holes" with some kind of virtual blur, so you can't see where he exactly was, but still can understand he was hiding behind a rock.

Show him taking the shot, and then follow the last bullet (the fatal one) going to you, still in a "virtual" view, so you have an idea of how far he was, but not of what or who is between you and him.
Then, a view of your guy dieing.

Finally, it could go back to the shooter, showing him in a sort of picture or a slow-mo (virtual stuff all around, you got it), with infos on him like his name, empire, outfit, battle rank, and maybe the weapon/vehicule he used to kill you.


tl;dr: don't show anything substantial around the shooter and his line of sight. Hide it with some kind of stylish sensor-disruptor effect.

That's the only kind of killcam that would be ok to me.
The one that doesn't show you any kind of intel on your enemy's situation on the battlefield.

Now this idea I like. Especially because this can be done so awesomely art-wise.

Another random interresting option: When you die, you see your last kill, as seen from the one who died.

[Graywolves]

Not fine with any killcam. I'd rather look at the map and see how the battle is developing when I'm dead.

I'd say seeing the opponents loadout would be acceptable but seriously, how could that help? In a game like this that's just pointless, you're not going to learn even with a conventional killcam because chances are you DIDN'T die from someone using the same thing as you...



In fact, if anything, Killcam slows down the pace of the game.

[SniperSteve]

Why is there even a killcam?

Since there is rezzing, why not just pan around your body PS1 style, and that lets you see what your squad is doing, and help you make a decision on whether to respawn or wait for a rez.

Pull killcam there and takes that away.

So at first I was in the 'wait and see' category, but the more I think about it and read what other people write, the less I like it. I am now in the "no kill cam" camp.


Just because every other game has a feature doesn't mean its good. PlanetSide is a breed of its own. Just don't bother with the killcam.

[SniperSteve]

In fact, if anything, Killcam slows down the pace of the game.

That's an interesting concept. In fast-paced games like Quake3 there was no kill-cam. Just respawn, lol.

[BigBossMonkey]

Here is my suggestion on the matter:

Higby (Or SOMEONE) has stated in the past that during the respawn screen you can edit your loadouts, and all that other fun stuff.

So my suggestion is after you die, bring up the edit loadout menu and have as the background (have the menu be slightly transparent) be like 2-3 seconds of a killcam. You can't see explicit details, but its there.

After 2-3 seconds change the background view to the continent map.

[CutterJohn]

Yeah, you really rarely certed sniper rifles.

I generally tried to play stuff that had an impact on the fight. :)

[SaberMonk]

As a PS1 vet AND an avid player of TF2 I cast my vote against the killcams.

Killcams work for a game like TF2 because it isn't a game that takes itself seriously. TF2 is made for arena-style combat, has cartoonish characters, and does not even remotely try to be realistic. Killcams add something fun to TF2, where taunting your enemy and wearing silly hats is part of the game.

Killcams don't work for a game like PS1 or PS2 because it DOES take itself seriously. It IS just a game, and it's a game set in a futuristic world, but it does have a certain amount of realism. Killcams absolutely don't fit in the world of Planetside. As someone said earlier, killcams provide meta-game information. There is no story reason to explain this game function, and there is no story reason to explain needing a special skill or implant to block it. It simply doesn't make sense in either the story-world of Planetside or for the style of game that Planetside is.

[Oryon22]

Please correct me if I am wrong as I have absolutely no idea how this works. But, does having a killcam eat up computer resources that could be better used towards vehicle enter/exit and holstering animations?

[Coreldan]

No, it really doesnt. It doesnt even really require much work to implement either, at least nothing in comparison to vehicle enter/exit animations.

[Oryon22]

No, it really doesnt. It doesnt even really require much work to implement either, at least nothing in comparison to vehicle enter/exit animations.

Interesting. Well, I still don't want the killcam!

[Coreldan]

Most of us dont! :D

[SpLiTNuTz]

DO NOT put kill cams in the game! please I beg you. :(

[Raymac]

TO EVERYONE WHO SAYS KILL CAMS DON'T TEACH ANYTHING:

When I started playing MW2, I had been coming off a break of playing fps games and I was a bit rusty. The COD style killcam helped me immensely in learning how to aim. I had no idea how much to lead a target, especially with sniper rifles, and watching other players killcams helped me adjust my own targeting in game and improve my gameplay quickly. So don't try to even start selling the bullshit that it ONLY gives away a player's position. I have direct personal experience of it helping me learn how to play better.

Having said that, I can certainly see the point of view that it does give away some information on the location of the killer. So I would prefer the COD style killcam because I think it helps the newer player more and it gives away less information about the killer. For example, when I am sniping in COD, I will leave my scope zoomed in for a second or so after a kill which is a great way to not give away my position since the killcam will be over by then.

Also, given the reality that most PS1 vets are against the idea, I would like to see killcams as an option that a player has to spend an implant or skill point in order to use as opposed to having to spend one in order to opt out.

EDIT 1: Also, I think it's ridiculous that people who scream about not wanting killcams are perfectly fine with the PS1 rotating death cam because whenever you are breaching a defense, the rotating gave live intel for minutes on the status of the area trying to be breached...for minutes!

EDIT 2: Anybody that says they don't want killcams because it "attracts the wrong kind of player" is just spouting elitist garbage. Planetside should be for everyone, not just people you deem worthy.

[Graywolves]

TO EVERYONE WHO SAYS KILL CAMS DON'T TEACH ANYTHING:

When I started playing MW2, it had been coming off a break of playing fps games and I was a bit rusty. The COD style killcam helped me immensely in learning how to aim. I had no idea how much to lead a target, especially with sniper rifles, and watching other players killcams helped me adjust my own targeting in game and improve my gameplay quickly. So don't try to even start selling the bullshit that it ONLY gives away a player's position. I have direct personal experience of it helping me learn how to play better.

Having said that, I can certainly see the point of view that it does give away some information on the location of the killer. So I would prefer the COD style killcam because I think it helps the newer player more and it gives away less information about the killer. For example, when I am sniping in COD, I will leave my scope zoomed in for a second or so after a kill which is a great way to not give away my position since the killcam will be over by then.

Also, given the reality that most PS1 vets are against the idea, I would like to see killcams as an option that a player has to spend an implant or skill point in order to use as opposed to having to spend one in order to opt out.

EDIT 1: Also, I think it's ridiculous that people who scream about not wanting killcams are perfectly fine with the PS1 rotating death cam because whenever you are breaching a defense, the rotating gave live intel for minutes on the status of the area trying to be breached...for minutes!

EDIT 2: Anybody that says they don't want killcams because it "attracts the wrong kind of player" is just spouting elitist garbage. Planetside should be for everyone, just just people you deem worthy.


If we need to unrealisticly lead targets like in CoD, I'm just not going to play this game.

[Raymac]

If we need to unrealisticly lead targets like in CoD, I'm just not going to play this game.

Leading targets is realistic.

[Lunarchild]

If we need to unrealisticly lead targets like in CoD, I'm just not going to play this game.

Bullet ballistics have been confirmed. You will need to lead your targets to some degree over range. And yea, real bullets have to be lead as well. It takes time for a bullet to get to a position. Not a whole lot, but over distance this may increase dramatically.

[Graywolves]

Leading targets is realistic.

Yeah if you're firing a hell lot further than 300 meters away.

On CoD maps that was just bullshit.

http://hypertextbook.com/facts/1999/MariaPereyra.shtml

No. Nothing about leading in CoD was anywhere near realistic. It was just a BS way to add "skill". If skill is a spray and pray at 50m then there we go.

-edit- http://askville.amazon.com/fast-bullet-travel/AnswerViewer.do?requestId=69071589
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_fast_does_a_bullet_travel
http://answers.ask.com/Hobbies/Guns_and_Knives/how_fast_do_bullets_travel

[ThGlump]

Let them have kill cams if they want to learn from them, and let it reveal enemy. But it must have a price by sacrificing implant slot form killcam implant. Then its even reasonable that it will show killcams on snipers and cloakers, since you payed for additional detection.

[Raymac]

Yeah if you're firing a hell lot further than 300 meters away.

On CoD maps that was just bullshit.

http://hypertextbook.com/facts/1999/MariaPereyra.shtml

No. Nothing about leading in CoD was anywhere near realistic. It was just a BS way to add "skill". If skill is a spray and pray at 50m then there we go.

-edit- http://askville.amazon.com/fast-bullet-travel/AnswerViewer.do?requestId=69071589

Strawman. Never has it been stated that Planetside ballistics = COD ballistics so don't equate the 2.

[Peacemaker]

I feel kill cams for newbies would be good. Toggle able kill cams for everyone else. First 3 hrs of game play for a newbie would give him kill cams for all, but once it's gone it's toggle for everyone. If mine is off when I kill you, you don't see my kill cam.

[Graywolves]

Strawman. Never has it been stated that Planetside ballistics = COD ballistics so don't equate the 2.

Actually, I was pointing out that leading targets in CoD was BS given the scale of the maps. It has more to do with your point than mine.


Then I referenced sources on how fast bullets travel to reinforce my point of how aweful leading is unless you're attacking something REALLY far away.

-edit- in this game you shouldn't need a killcam to tell you how to aim. That instant it helped you for the BS target leading in CoD is an extremely isolated incidant that hopefully won't be in PS2.

[Lunarchild]

Actually, I was pointing out that leading targets in CoD was BS given the scale of the maps. It has more to do with your point than mine.


Then I referenced sources on how fast bullets travel to reinforce my point of how aweful leading is unless you're attacking something REALLY far away.

Unfortunately those numbers don't mean much to people who don't know how those numbers where measured. Is the speed measured at the point at which it leaves the riffle, or is it the average speed between the riffle and the target (in which case: how far is the target)? At speeds like that you get a lot of air resistance, so speed will drop significantly over a short distance.

At any rate, Planetside maps will be a lot larger than CoD ones, and at 1KM distance you do have to lead your target regardless. Also, realism has nothing to do with it: games are tweaked as to what is more fun rather than more realistic.

[Tool]

TO EVERYONE WHO SAYS KILL CAMS DON'T TEACH ANYTHING:

When I started playing MW2, I had been coming off a break of playing fps games and I was a bit rusty. The COD style killcam helped me immensely in learning how to aim. I had no idea how much to lead a target, especially with sniper rifles, and watching other players killcams helped me adjust my own targeting in game and improve my gameplay quickly. So don't try to even start selling the bullshit that it ONLY gives away a player's position. I have direct personal experience of it helping me learn how to play better.

Having said that, I can certainly see the point of view that it does give away some information on the location of the killer. So I would prefer the COD style killcam because I think it helps the newer player more and it gives away less information about the killer. For example, when I am sniping in COD, I will leave my scope zoomed in for a second or so after a kill which is a great way to not give away my position since the killcam will be over by then.

Also, given the reality that most PS1 vets are against the idea, I would like to see killcams as an option that a player has to spend an implant or skill point in order to use as opposed to having to spend one in order to opt out.

EDIT 1: Also, I think it's ridiculous that people who scream about not wanting killcams are perfectly fine with the PS1 rotating death cam because whenever you are breaching a defense, the rotating gave live intel for minutes on the status of the area trying to be breached...for minutes!

EDIT 2: Anybody that says they don't want killcams because it "attracts the wrong kind of player" is just spouting elitist garbage. Planetside should be for everyone, not just people you deem worthy.

I think its worth saying that Cod is its own beast. It can afford to teach players their mistakes quickly because of the pace of the game. Learning how to lead targets at range, controlling recoil, etc is something an mmo shouldn't spoon feed its player base.

These things are a form of progression. Something learned and then passed on by players teaching one another and through practice. In kotor we practiced a lot, not just on our gun-game but any aspect that makes us better both individually and as a group. Training like this added an important layer to ps1 that helped it be set apart from the cods and battlefields.

Progression not in the form of gear or stats but skill and coordination. Moral of the story is, look at ps2 as an mmo and what that entails; not just a modern shooter with simply more players than usual.

[Graywolves]

I think its worth saying that Cod is its own beast. It can afford to teach players their mistakes quickly because of the pace of the game. Learning how to lead targets at range, controlling recoil, etc is something an mmo shouldn't spoon feed its player base.

These things are a form of progression. Something learned and then passed on by players teaching one another and through practice. In kotor we practiced a lot, not just on our gun-game but any aspect that makes us better both individually and as a group. Training like this added an important layer to ps1 that helped it be set apart from the cods and battlefields.

Progression not in the form of gear or stats but skill and coordination. Moral of the story is, look at ps2 as an mmo and what that entails; not just a modern shooter with simply more players than usual.



This - let the community be strong and allow the players to teach each other.

[Raymac]

I think its worth saying that Cod is its own beast. It can afford to teach players their mistakes quickly because of the pace of the game. Learning how to lead targets at range, controlling recoil, etc is something an mmo shouldn't spoon feed its player base.


I see what you are saying, but I actually think that is all the more reason to give new players the tools to learn. I think, due to the huge number of ways to die, Planetside has a steeper learning curve than your run of the mill arena shooter. Helping newer players through that learning curve in every way possible will increase enjoyment as well as keep populations up which is more fundamental to Planetside than most other games.

[General M]

Personally, I'm happy with any of these scenarios:

1) Have a PS1 style cam, maybe rotatable but with a fixed point being the players body, then cut to loadout screen

2) Some form of focus on the player who killed you but nothing on his surroundings

3) For the player to be able to see an overview of the battleground he was fighting (maybe a birds eye view over a fairly large area of land)

4) Any form of killcam for new players only - first few levels/hours of play

5) No killcam

Just my 2 pennies :)

[Tool]

I see what you are saying, but I actually think that is all the more reason to give new players the tools to learn. I think, due to the huge number of ways to die, Planetside has a steeper learning curve than your run of the mill arena shooter. Helping newer players through that learning curve in every way possible will increase enjoyment as well as keep populations up which is more fundamental to Planetside than most other games.

That's true but I feel there's better ways to do such than a killcam. Like the above mentioned, relegating that to the community to train those new players is I feel the most ideal method.

A better form of training tutorial can accomplish this as well. A sort of vr boot camp for movement, weapons, vehicles and equipment/classes. Ending with a simulation using the already existing ai. All the basics needed and given for the player to dive in and grow further.

An example mind you but the point remains, there's better alternatives to help new players.

[Graywolves]

How does a kill cam help people learn? Seriously. I cannot fathom a SINGLE instance in which it helps. Someone please tell me how a kill cam is useful in ANY game type other than a 15 min 16vs16 match. I'll try and think of some right now

I am walking down a hallway. There is a door that leads to a somewhat open alleyway. I have a choice of going left or right. I look both ways, and it all seems clear. I decide to go left. After about a second I die. The kill cam shows an enemy walking down an alleyway and turning right. He sees me with my back facing him, and shoots. What did I learn? I should have gone right instead?

I am outside. There are bushes and trees. I am looking around for enemies as I advance. Bullets fly from a bush and I die. The kill cam shows an enemy hiding in a bush that clearly saw me and killed me. What did I learn? Should I shoot every bush I come across now?

I see an enemy running in my direction. I go to shoot, but he makes a sudden movement to the right. My bullet misses by inches, and he opens fire. My gun has a lower rate of fire, and I die. What did I learn? Don't miss?

What have I ever learned from a kill cam that has made me better? Nothing. I knew everything that the kill cam shows. I didn't notice him hiding. I wasn't looking in his direction. I have bad aim. What, is, there, to, learn?

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

[Gandhi]

I see what you are saying, but I actually think that is all the more reason to give new players the tools to learn. I think, due to the huge number of ways to die, Planetside has a steeper learning curve than your run of the mill arena shooter. Helping newer players through that learning curve in every way possible will increase enjoyment as well as keep populations up which is more fundamental to Planetside than most other games.
I think anything you can learn from a killcam can be learned just as easily from watching a few gameplay videos on YouTube. It seems like a weak justification for a feature with (I think) no other redeeming qualities and at least one big problem.

[Duddy]

I think anything you can learn from a killcam can be learned just as easily from watching a few gameplay videos on YouTube. It seems like a weak justification for a feature with (I think) no other redeeming qualities and at least one big problem.

I'm not for killcams, but that's as weak a justification against them.

Expecting people to go to an external resource to learn about how to play the game is silly. That's like getting a board game and the rule book is just a slip of paper telling you to go read the rulebook on the website, completely impractical.

[Raymac]

That's true but I feel there's better ways to do such than a killcam. Like the above mentioned, relegating that to the community to train those new players is I feel the most ideal method.

A better form of training tutorial can accomplish this as well. A sort of vr boot camp for movement, weapons, vehicles and equipment/classes. Ending with a simulation using the already existing ai. All the basics needed and given for the player to dive in and grow further.

An example mind you but the point remains, there's better alternatives to help new players.

I think those are great ideas! I think there should be many different ways to improve, but killcams are a way to do it while actually playing the game. No matter how good the VR is, it doesn't come close to the same conditions as actual gameplay.

Also, asking for help is not something that should be forced onto players. Although the original Planetside community is great, fps communities in general don't have the best reputation and there may be some scarred socially awkward penguins out there.

Also, Graywolves, are you trying to freakin troll me with that crap? That's one of the posts that made me create the earlier one you replied to about how killcams have in fact helped me. So saying they don't teach anything is bullshit.

@Gandhi - You make a good point. Youtube can certainly be helpful. I think the only advantages a killcam would have over that would be it is more immediate (instant) and it is taken from your own personal experience so the context is easier to grasp.

[Warborn]

Someone should put basically every change they've made to the game up to a vote and I bet people would vote against all of it. These polls are both hilarious and enlightening.

[Gandhi]

Expecting people to go to an external resource to learn about how to play the game is silly. That's like getting a board game and the rule book is just a slip of paper telling you to go read the rulebook on the website, completely impractical.
Well I'd expect them to learn how to play from the community and the tutorial, that's how it's done in almost every game out there.

edit: Besides there's a difference between learning how to play and becoming more skilled at the game. Planetside doesn't have a steep learning curve, not like EVE for example. Someone totally new to FPS games could pick up the basics in a couple hours or less, from there it's building skill, and it's really not uncommon to go to external resources for that. Strategy guides, walkthroughs, tips to improve your gameplay, these things have been around since forever.

[Graywolves]

I think those are great ideas! I think there should be many different ways to improve, but killcams are a way to do it while actually playing the game. No matter how good the VR is, it doesn't come close to the same conditions as actual gameplay.

Also, asking for help is not something that should be forced onto players. Although the original Planetside community is great, fps communities in general don't have the best reputation and there may be some scarred socially awkward penguins out there.

Also, Graywolves, are you trying to freakin troll me with that crap? That's one of the posts that made me create the earlier one you replied to about how killcams have in fact helped me. So saying they don't teach anything is bullshit.

@Gandhi - You make a good point. Youtube can certainly be helpful. I think the only advantages a killcam would have over that would be it is more immediate (instant) and it is taken from your own personal experience so the context is easier to grasp.


They don't teach anything you wouldn't already know or would teach you something rediculously situational.

Killcams helped you in other games because everyone could make their loadouts similar because there was no real class and the scale was small on tiny maps.

As the game is an MMO, interacting with other players is really important. So players actually SHOULD be encouraged to seek help from others.

[Tool]

This seems to be one of topics where conceptual notions aren't terribly far from the eventual practice. We've seen this mechanic before and know the results.

Do the pros outweigh the cons for killcams? Like I've said before, it ultimately depends on the type of fps ps2 hopes to be. However, also being an mmo is a large part of the choice. The variable I think which goes against killcams. The feeling, notions killcams give is arcade not mmo.

[MpS]

This seems to be one of topics where conceptual notions aren't terribly far from the eventual practice. We've seen this mechanic before and know the results.

Do the pros outweigh the cons for killcams? Like I've said before, it ultimately depends on the type of fps ps2 hopes to be. However, also being an mmo is a large part of the choice. The variable I think which goes against killcams. The feeling, notions killcams give is arcade not mmo.

I don't remember when but Higby said at one point that planetside 2 is trying to be the re-imagined version of the original Planetside. That said Planetside wasn't just an arcade shooter that didn't take itself seriously, if PS2 is trying to be what Planetside is but better then kill cams shouldn't be included.

[Duddy]

Well I'd expect them to learn how to play from the community and the tutorial, that's how it's done in almost every game out there.

edit: Besides there's a difference between learning how to play and becoming more skilled at the game. Planetside doesn't have a steep learning curve, not like EVE for example. Someone totally new to FPS games could pick up the basics in a couple hours or less, from there it's building skill, and it's really not uncommon to go to external resources for that. Strategy guides, walkthroughs, tips to improve your gameplay, these things have been around since forever.

I'd have to disagree with you here, many of the people I managed to convince to play Planetside were completely lost without me to guide them through what was happening. Sure nothing was difficult per-se (nothing you'd normally do anyway) but without the additional knowledge some peopel would spend their entire time in Planetside not knowing some of the basics.

I'd also argue that you need only look at the MOBA genre to see how a lack of thought into teaching the players goes.

And whilst the examples you give are great learning tools, don;t get me wrong I use them myself whenever playing a game, the fact is they are external and as a result the oblivious majority may never see them.

That said what I'm talking about starts taking this away from just being about the killcam to a far more meta discussion about learning curves and the lengths developers do to flatten it in games.

[Gandhi]

I'd have to disagree with you here, many of the people I managed to convince to play Planetside were completely lost without me to guide them through what was happening. Sure nothing was difficult per-se (nothing you'd normally do anyway) but without the additional knowledge some peopel would spend their entire time in Planetside not knowing some of the basics.
Yeah you're right, the new player introduction is a big part of it. And that's something that could definitely be improved in Planetside 2, just... well just not with kill cams please :p

[Raymac]

They don't teach anything you wouldn't already know or would teach you something rediculously situational.

Killcams helped you in other games because everyone could make their loadouts similar because there was no real class and the scale was small on tiny maps.

As the game is an MMO, interacting with other players is really important. So players actually SHOULD be encouraged to seek help from others.

I'm not going to freaking re-type what I did earlier about how it helped me specifically. You can go back and read it if you want. Don't try to tell me what it taught me.

Also, COD had a wide variety of loadouts unlike Planetside which has a vast majority in HA/AV/Eng/Med.

You're right though in that being an MMO, social interaction is important, but that doesn't mean there shouldn't be ways for players to learn on their own.

EDIT: In a nutshell, this is a pitch perfect example of me and the killcam in MW2 where I'm The N00b and the killcam was The Vet. (We've all seen this vid, but it expresses my point)
Official Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 3 - The Vet & The n00b - YouTube

[MpS]

I'd have to disagree with you here, many of the people I managed to convince to play Planetside were completely lost without me to guide them through what was happening. Sure nothing was difficult per-se (nothing you'd normally do anyway) but without the additional knowledge some peopel would spend their entire time in Planetside not knowing some of the basics.

This is true but a kill cam is not the way to go about introducing players into the game, there are much better ways to teach newer players the ropes of the game.

[Nobel]

This has obviously been a very controversial topic for some of you. We want you to know we are of course reading through all this feedback.

If I could delve further though, are there restrictions that would make the kill cam bearable for those who are very against it?

I think KillCams are a great idea for MOST situations, although they do break immersion, they help newer players enjoy the game more, which is really helpful.

Situations where they are more frustrating than helpful tend to be in A.) Sniper Roles and B.) Stealth Roles.

I would then propose, in order to make it bearable for these roles, make it if you are in an infiltrator class, you have no killcam. That way we can have our cake and eat it too.

[Graywolves]

I'm not going to freaking re-type what I did earlier about how it helped me specifically. You can go back and read it if you want. Don't try to tell me what it taught me.

Also, COD had a wide variety of loadouts unlike Planetside which has a vast majority in HA/AV/Eng/Med.

You're right though in that being an MMO, social interaction is important, but that doesn't mean there shouldn't be ways for players to learn on their own.

That's just it. In CoD you're like "oh this guy has this weapon with these attachments and these perks and he was positioned over there."

That's not going to help you if you're killed by an HA and you're a Medic or if Higgles is honest in that he wants every area to feel unique. Between even 3 continents there's too many places for you to be like "Oh I can sit here and get kills." People didn't learn to sit on walls on facilities to defend because of a killcam, they saw other people doing it, and sometimes too many people were doing it so people ended up on the ground or elsewhere anyways.

Players do have methods for learning on their own. We all did it without kill cams via theorycrafting and thinking over what is available, what might be most effective, and then testing it.

edit-- There's too much to do that is observed through seeing your own team while you're alive to actually learn something useful from someone using their own empire's weapons on their side of the fight.

[Raymac]

Players do have methods for learning on their own. We all did it without kill cams via theorycrafting and thinking over what is available, what might be most effective, and then testing it.

edit-- There's too much to do that is observed through seeing your own team while you're alive to actually learn something useful from someone using their own empire's weapons on their side of the fight.

It also taught me about how to aim better. (Remember the whole ballistics conversation we had a few minutes ago?)

Also, Planetside did have a steep learning curve. So the whole "kids nowadays are soft and we had to figure it out our own way" arguement is just a cop out. The more ways we can ease that learning curve, the better. Kill cams aren't the only way, but they are a good way.

[Hmr85]

I have been trying to stay out of this. But I think there needs to be a limit on killcams. What I mean is give new players the option to have killcam till BR 10. At that point you can either A keep your killcam on or B turn it off. Now with that said for Veteran players returning to the Game. SOE ought to give those players the option right from the start to opt out on whether you want your killcam on. Some players just do not want other people seeing what they are doing. How their load out looks and so on. I should have the option to keep other players from seeing my tactics.

[ShadoViper]

It also taught me about how to aim better. (Remember the whole ballistics conversation we had a few minutes ago?)

Also, Planetside did have a steep learning curve. So the whole "kids nowadays are soft and we had to figure it out our own way" arguement is just a cop out. The more ways we can ease that learning curve, the better. Kill cams aren't the only way, but they are a good way.

I enjoyed reading your defense for killcams and it's good that it helped you but im with also with graywolves and the other anti killcam fans on this as well.

While I will leave my final judgement for the beta before writing it out or getting "mad". I will say that I don't like killcams in general for me for three simple reasons. It breaks immersion, cheap/lame (cloakers for example) and It bothers me when I have to wait between loading watching crap I don't care about mashing the skip button (lol personal peeve).

Tl;dr

Not a fan of killcams but reserves final judgement on beta.

[Graywolves]

I have been trying to stay out of this. But I think there needs to be a limit on killcams. What I mean is give new players the option to have killcam till BR 10. At that point you can either A keep your killcam on or B turn it off. Now with that said for Veteran players returning to the Game. SOE ought to give those players the option right from the start to opt out on whether you want your killcam on. Some players just do not want other people seeing what they are doing. How their load out looks and so on. I should have the option to keep other players from seeing my tactics.

Is your idea that once you hit BR10 you can turn off killcams for yourself and those you kill?

[Hmr85]

Is your idea that once you hit BR10 you can turn off killcams for yourself and those you kill?

yes, that should be more than enough time for the newer players to learn. I posted this way way way back in this thread.

[Gortha]

This has obviously been a very controversial topic for some of you. We want you to know we are of course reading through all this feedback.

If I could delve further though, are there restrictions that would make the kill cam bearable for those who are very against it?

This:

...
To correct this problem, I would suggest this. A simple two option toggle in game. Each player has the option to turn off or on the ability to VIEW their own deaths, as well as the option to have others view their kills.

This makes everyone as happy as possible in this situation. Those that like to know will occasionally be allowed to see their deaths :evil:, but only by those who don't care if they are seen. I do recognize the fact that others might be affected by another players indifference, but in a unfair world, sometimes we need to compromise.
...

This:

Kill cam should not be in game - it's just a waste of animation/memory and bandwidth.

Keep it to how PS has it, rotating camera of death.

I am more for the second variant of the classic PS1 Deathcam. U see near perimeter and can wait for a medic.
If you want to make the waiting time for the players less boring, just let em do more as in the old Planetside. Give them Access to Equip-Loadouts, let em do more on the Map, let em use the chat, etc... i am sure u´ll have tome great ideas which shorten the respawntimer! :groovy:

Please hear us and save the game from the Kill Cam ;)

[ShadoViper]

If I could delve further though, are there restrictions that would make the kill cam bearable for those who are very against it?

...
To correct this problem, I would suggest this. A simple two option toggle in game. Each player has the option to turn off or on the ability to VIEW their own deaths, as well as the option to have others view their kills.

This makes everyone as happy as possible in this situation. Those that like to know will occasionally be allowed to see their deaths :evil:, but only by those who don't care if they are seen. I do recognize the fact that others might be affected by another players indifference, but in a unfair world, sometimes we need to compromise.
...




Hm.. That seems to be a pretty decent compromise that would potentially please both sides.

This has my vote if killcam has to be implemented.

[General M]

A toggle system simply will not work, believe me.

[Hmr85]

A toggle system simply will not work, believe me.

It will for people like me who do not want other people seeing what I am doing. Yet still gives people who want to learn and or post you tube videos of the greatest kills volume 1 online the ability to do so. I can tell you everybody in my outfit who is a veteran players will have it toggled off also. The toggle off ability should block your killcam and that of your opponents.

[Gortha]

It will for people like me who do not want other people seeing what I am doing. Yet still gives people who want to learn and or post you tube videos of the greatest kills volume 1 online the ability to do so. I can tell you everybody in my outfit who is a veteran players will have it toggled off also. The toggle off ability should block your killcam and that of your opponents.

w0rd!

I also think every PS Vet or generally experianced Shooter Gamer will de-activate the Kill-Cam if possible.
Just because of the only reason, it gives away too much Intel, Informationj
which can be awful for him and his mates.

And for those who see the Kill Cam as a Newbe-Training Video-Tutorial - even them, the Neebs will become Vets and will hate the Kill Cam for the unjustified INtel it gives away for free.

Kill Cam is Noobish. :P~

[General M]

It will for people like me who do not want other people seeing what I am doing. Yet still gives people who want to learn and or post you tube videos of the greatest kills volume 1 online the ability to do so. I can tell you everybody in my outfit who is a veteran players will have it toggled off also. The toggle off ability should block your killcam and that of your opponents.

So what happens if little Jimmy has killcam on and all the hardcore players (the ones who will probably kill you the most being the most involved and generally better) have their's toggled off? Unfortunately you can't have it both ways because that will basically make it harder for the new guys who have killcam on.

[Hmr85]

So what happens if little Jimmy has killcam on and all the hardcore players (the ones who will probably kill you the most being the most involved and generally better) have their's toggled off? Unfortunately you can't have it both ways because that will basically make it harder for the new guys who have killcam on.

It means little Jimmy is not gonna learn shit from me. He can wait and learn from somebody who has theirs toggled on. Then if little Jimmy really wants to learn how to play the game he can go join a proper outfit who will put some time in to train him up right.

[Gortha]

@General M

You don´t understand. Reread: http://www.planetside-universe.com/forums/showthread.php?p=630845#post630845

[General M]

It means little Jimmy is not gonna learn shit from me. He can wait and learn from somebody who has theirs toggled on. Then if little Jimmy really wants to learn how to play the game he can go join a proper outfit who will put some time in to train him up right.

Right so you think most people who play the game are going to want to jump straight into an outfit? 90% of the new players of the game probably won't have a clue what an outfit is, let alone want to join one.

The fact is there is no point in having an on/off option because it is heavily biased towards the person with the off option. The only way around this for me would be to have off as the start position.

BTW, I would rather not have killcam, but there's no way a 2-tier system would work:(

[Carbanu]

This has obviously been a very controversial topic for some of you. We want you to know we are of course reading through all this feedback.

If I could delve further though, are there restrictions that would make the kill cam bearable for those who are very against it?

I think the major consensus is that the ability for an enemy to see where they were just killed from and how is not conducive to this type of game. Planetside 2 is a persistant battlefield where our actions have repercussions further reaching than a twenty minute romp in a CoD or BF3 map.

If it was just an objective third person view like from above or an exact replay of what you saw as you died, it could work without damaging the tactical element. Of course the option to disable any kill cam would have to exsist, no one who is pissed off for getting owned wants to relive that moment. I personally hate kill cams. They are just annoying and a waste of resources that could have been utilized elsewhere like: VEHICLE ANIMATIONS.

[General M]

@General M

You don´t understand. Reread: http://www.planetside-universe.com/forums/showthread.php?p=630845#post630845

I understand but it's unfair:

Player with off - knows he cannot be viewed in killcam, knows he won't get one, all good for him.

Player with on - May or may not get a killcam, not sure if the person he just shot gets a killcam.

It ultimately unbalanced.

[Graywolves]

I understand but it's unfair:

Player with off - knows he cannot be viewed in killcam, knows he won't get one, all good for him.

Player with on - May or may not get a killcam, not sure if the person he just shot gets a killcam.

It ultimately unbalanced.

It's not unbalanced at all. No one is supposed to actually recieve a benefit beyond education from killcams. Or just boasting a kill in someone's face.

The player with it on just doesn't always see himself die all the time.

[Vancha]

I can't help but feel the teaching merits of killcams are being overstated slightly. I don't think you'll have anyone giving up on a game because they missed a kill cam education...

[Graywolves]

I can't help but feel the teaching merits of killcams are being overstated slightly. I don't think you'll have anyone giving up on a game because they missed a kill cam education...

It's even questionable if a new player could actually reap educational benefits from the game or just mimick what he sees with little understanding of how it worked.

[General M]

It's not unbalanced at all. No one is supposed to actually recieve a benefit beyond education from killcams. Or just boasting a kill in someone's face.

The player with it on just doesn't always see himself die all the time.

As I've said before, I don't want the killcam that we've got in BF3/MW3 atm. However it's such a core part of an FPS that having a toggle would be worse :(

[Hmr85]

I can't help but feel the teaching merits of killcams are being overstated slightly. I don't think you'll have anyone giving up on a game because they missed a kill cam education...

Thank you, I agree...

Nobody was there on day 1 of PS1 to teach me what did what. Nobody was there on day1 to teach anybody else in the game that just started what was what. We all managed to some how survive.

What SOE has implemented into PS1 imo is more than enough. If your a new player starting out. Every time you run to a terminal or select this vehicle or that. A nice little box pops up explaining what it does. I myself feel that is more than enough. As for education and learning how to play.
Little jimmy will pick up fast enough that running out across the field like its BF3 spraying everywhere and not taking cover is going to get you killed every time. He will notice his teammates hiding behind rocks and advancing slowly. He should be more than capable of picking this up himself.

In regard to outfits, your kidding your self if you do not think the first 3 months of this game general/local chat is not gonna be spammed with outfits recruiting. I would imagine new players will be like. Ohh those must be like guilds. I can assure SquadX will be recruiting. So if you wanna join a proper outfit with 30+ guys on starting day send me a message on here. There shameless promotion. But will be bringing in new guys left and right.

[Raymac]

I can't help but feel the teaching merits of killcams are being overstated slightly. I don't think you'll have anyone giving up on a game because they missed a kill cam education...

You're looking at it wrong. People won't quit because kill cams aren't in the game. People will quit because the learning curve is so steep and they are dying too much.

Constantly getting your ass kicked is never fun, and that is one of the concerns and complaints I've heard about mmofps games. It's that there is sooo much going on, so much chaos, so many different ways to die compared to the 8v8 games fps players are so used to. Hell there are threads in this forum of people asking for help in this regard.

Now, those of us who have played PS know that you can get over that initial hump and increase your lifespan, but it takes time to learn that. I don't care how awesome you think you are, surviving in Planetside has a steeper learning curve than most shooters. While there are certainly other ways that can be employed to help with that initial shock, kill cams are an immediate and helpful resource. Simply dismissing them out of hand is short sighted.

[Vancha]

Well that was sort of the implication I was making. Would kill cams honestly cause someone to climb the learning curve when they would otherwise have quit? I kind of doubt it. The reasons that PS has it's learning curve isn't down to it's combat mechanics. Though even if it were, I think there'd be better alternatives for educating players that didn't come with the downsides of a kill cam.

[Azren]

You're looking at it wrong. People won't quit because kill cams aren't in the game. People will quit because the learning curve is so steep and they are dying too much.

Constantly getting your ass kicked is never fun, and that is one of the concerns and complaints I've heard about mmofps games. It's that there is sooo much going on, so much chaos, so many different ways to die compared to the 8v8 games fps players are so used to. Hell there are threads in this forum of people asking for help in this regard.

Now, those of us who have played PS know that you can get over that initial hump and increase your lifespan, but it takes time to learn that. I don't care how awesome you think you are, surviving in Planetside has a steeper learning curve than most shooters. While there are certainly other ways that can be employed to help with that initial shock, kill cams are an immediate and helpful resource. Simply dismissing them out of hand is short sighted.

PS was easy to pick up and play. With the cert system in place you did not get access to any complicated weapons at getgo, and what you needed to know was to be found in the tutorial missions.

Kill cam having any kind of teaching ability? Right... please explain to me how seeing the guy who gave the _last shot_ into me (while other 10 were doing likewise) will have any benefits? Maybe in using some very special tactics? Well, those should be outfit secrets, something to look forward to if you join a well known team of players, not something to copy from a video.

For me a killcam simply takes away the reality feel fo the game. You know, the immersion of it being a constant world. While you see a killcam you are removed from the actual gameworld, and just see some recording from the past.

[Gortha]

I understand but it's unfair:

Player with off - knows he cannot be viewed in killcam, knows he won't get one, all good for him.

Player with on - May or may not get a killcam, not sure if the person he just shot gets a killcam.

It ultimately unbalanced.

I think it´s not unfair.

Those who want to see a killcam and want to be shown on a kill cam can see each other, that must be enough. They just don´t see a kill cam from killers who don´t want to be revealed and have turned this game breaking "feature" off.

[Vancha]

^
Yeah, I just want to clarify that despite my constant opposition to this, I neither think it would be game-breaking nor completely ruin sniping. Calling it a "game breaking feature" is going a tad far I think.

[Lord Cosine]

Planetside is a very tough game to teach to new players. I would go as far as calling it unforgiving. New players have to climb a 100ft greased wall before they can start enjoying themselves. Those who climbed the wall were rewarded with some of the greatest gaming experiences of their lives.

I have tried to get all of my closest friends to experience the joys of planetside 1 but it was a harrowing experience. So far I was only able to recruit one, everyone else was immediately put off by their first 4 hours of gameplay, one refuses to ever try it again hehe.

We definitely need some sort of system to teach new players effectively. They need to get a chance to experience what planetside really has to offer them. Perhaps directing the gameplay in a way that routinely shows players the fun tactics and battlefield scenarios that made the first game so awesome.

Make sure new players somehow get to participate in mass gal drops. Have ways to help them participate in max crashes, have robust ways to help group them with other players, and have the mission system reward them for staying together.

I honestly do not think a warfield death cam is the feature that is going to make everything sunshine and rainbows. If the death cam does not have a significant impact on teaching new players then I think it should absolutely be scrapped. However if there is a warfield death cam then it should be specifically tailored towards educational feedback.

[Gortha]

^
Yeah, I just want to clarify that despite my constant opposition to this, I neither think it would be game-breaking nor completely ruin sniping. Calling it a "game breaking feature" is going a tad far I think.

^^ I like to exaggerate a bit :evil:

It won´t "break the game" but it will make PS2 another game it will be without Kill Cam. Pleayers will play in another way...

[Vancha]

Players will play in another way...
It will change gameplay. That much is certain.

[Gortha]

Planetside is a very tough game to teach to new players. I would go as far as calling it unforgiving. New players have to climb a 100ft greased wall before they can start enjoying themselves. Those who climbed the wall were rewarded with some of the greatest gaming experiences of their lives.

I have tried to get all of my closest friends to experience the joys of planetside 1 but it was a harrowing experience. So far I was only able to recruit one, everyone else was immediately put off by their first 4 hours of gameplay, one refuses to ever try it again hehe.

We definitely need some sort of system to teach new players effectively. They need to get a chance to experience what planetside really has to offer them. Perhaps directing the gameplay in a way that routinely shows players the fun tactics and battlefield scenarios that made the first game so awesome.

Make sure new players somehow get to participate in mass gal drops. Have ways to help them participate in max crashes, have robust ways to help group them with other players, and have the mission system reward them for staying together.

I honestly do not think a warfield death cam is the feature that is going to make everything sunshine and rainbows. If the death cam does not have a significant impact on teaching new players then I think it should absolutely be scrapped. However if there is a warfield death cam then it should be specifically tailored towards educational feedback.

I tried the same with my mates and friends too, but it hardly worked out.

What i realized through this, was taht they just don´t had the patience
and the will to suffer a bit in the beginning. I learned they are guys who like
hte easy way even if it´s boring.

Like you said, they missed one of the best gaming experience they´d had in their lifes.

For me Planetside was the best followed by Darkfall Online.
I am sure PS2 will be my new Number One.

And i really have faith in the Devs, i am very very happy they share that
much infos with us and hear or even speak with us over gamemechanics and
so on.

I only wanted to point out with this thread that Kill Cam won´t be a benefit for Planetside2. In no Way!

reg
Gortha

[Gandhi]

A high skill ceiling and a steep learning curve are two different things. For an example of the latter have a look at EVE, X3: Terran Conflict or Europa Universalis. For an example of the former, have a look at Planetside ;)

Anyway I think this is getting a little off topic. There should be a whole other thread on how to introduce new players to the game, because it's an issue that definitely needs looking into for PS2.

[Hermes]

If we don't see a kill cam in beta for at least a quick test before being canned I will be sad. Even if it turns out that it is truly is a bad choice for the game, this thread smells a bit too lynch mob.

If a feature (that may even be already developed) we haven't even seen yet can be removed by people shouting loud enough then I'm worried.

I love the passion and enthusiasm :) Just I'm hoping for a dev team which is robust to witch hunts as well as responsive to feedback. Again, I fully admit the kill cam could be a turd or a blessing. Just i'd like to see it judged properly, not drowned at birth.

[Gortha]

@Hermes

You know there are things in the World which are just plain worng or bad, do you?

Kill Cam is one of these :D

[Hmr85]

If we don't see a kill cam in beta for at least a quick test before being canned I will be sad. Even if it turns out that it is truly is a bad choice for the game, this thread smells a bit too lynch mob.

If a feature (that may even be already developed) we haven't even seen yet can be removed by people shouting loud enough then I'm worried.

I love the passion and enthusiasm :) Just I'm hoping for a dev team which is robust to witch hunts as well as responsive to feedback. Again, I fully admit the kill cam could be a turd or a blessing. Just i'd like to see it judged properly, not drowned at birth.

Burn the Heretic!!!

No, I agree, I would like to see how they have it in Beta. Then will be able to have proper discussion on the matter. Especially if they already have it designed. But with that said though I am still not a fan of kill cams as mentioned above.

[Tool]

Well hopefully I'll get into the beta and look at this objectively. There's been good points on both sides. Shouldn't be terribly difficult to find that middle ground but I think it's very important that those who don't want killcams in the first place not be forced to get an implant to negate it.

A toggleable option for all players to see and be seen may be the fairest route aside from complete removal.

[Vancha]

A high skill ceiling and a steep learning curve are two different things. For an example of the latter have a look at EVE, X3: Terran Conflict or Europa Universalis. For an example of the former, have a look at Planetside ;)

I was going to use EVE as an example. It has a suicidal learning curve. There's a picture that illustrates it perfectly...

http://i.imgur.com/yTjlb.jpg

Now I have no doubt that Planetside 2 could achieve continual growth like EVE, even if it's learning curve was as harsh, but it seems pretty obvious that EVE's learning curve will also have pushed away a lot of players over the years.

[Metalsheep]

A toggleable option for all players to see and be seen may be the fairest route aside from complete removal.

I feel that if this was an option, to have the Killcam on or off, it would create an imbalance between players. "Smart" (i.e. win at all costs) players will leave the Killcam on, so they can use it to predict the location of their killer, his squad, or some other tactical data he can use or relay to his team. While players who leave it off will get none of this. It is like the Weather and Flora in Planetside one, "smart" players have it turned off because with it on it limits their visibility or ability to see other players or cloakers that may try to use the shrubs as concealment. Their goal is to win, and use all the available tweaks and options that could give them any kind of edge.

I still say No to killcams, but if they are going to leave them in anyways, dont let it be toggle on/off. (same with weather, flora, and other vision/awareness effecting variables.) Unless players with the Killcam toggled off never give a killcam to players they kill as well. But then they might as well not even add it, as according to the poll, about 70% of players will have it off. Making it a mostly useless feature.

[Hermes]

@Hermes

You know there are things in the World which are just plain worng or bad, do you?

Kill Cam is one of these :D

lol

Ahhhhhhhh I'm just going to go hide under my bed until this thread is over. :(

Burn the Heretic!!!

No, I agree, I would like to see how they have it in Beta. Then will be able to have proper discussion on the matter. Especially if they already have it designed. But with that said though I am still not a fan of kill cams as mentioned above.

Hurray! That's totally fair enough - everyone should go into beta armed with preconceptions, it shows we've been paying attention. Kudos for the balanced approach :) Also booooooo burning. I had weekend plans...

[Tool]

I feel that if this was an option, to have the Killcam on or off, it would create an imbalance between players. "Smart" (i.e. win at all costs) players will leave the Killcam on, so they can use it to predict the location of their killer, his squad, or some other tactical data he can use or relay to his team. While players who leave it off will get none of this. It is like the Weather and Flora in Planetside one, "smart" players have it turned off because with it on it limits their visibility or ability to see other players or cloakers that may try to use the shrubs as concealment. Their goal is to win, and use all the available tweaks and options that could give them any kind of edge.

I still say No to killcams, but if they are going to leave them in anyways, dont let it be toggle on/off. (same with weather, flora, and other vision/awareness effecting variables.) Unless players with the Killcam toggled off never give a killcam to players they kill as well. But then they might as well not even add it, as according to the poll, about 70% of players will have it off. Making it a mostly useless feature.

I apologize, I could have been more clear. The idea is that those who have it on could only see and be seen by others who have it on. And those who have it off can not see or be seen on killcams, even if a player they kill has it on.

So if your the sneaky type with it off, your generally not going to be around other players aside from your own outfit. The worry of an another friendly dying and you being discovered through the killcam is minimal.

I don't advocate but it is an alternative.

[Firefly]

If I could delve further though, are there restrictions that would make the kill cam bearable for those who are very against it?
No. I don't know about anyone else in this 20-something page thread, but my reason for being against killcam is, I don't want Planetside to turn into CoD the MMO. Which is why I'm also against: a) taking out everything but direct fire, b) getting rid of Sanctuaries, etc.

[Sirisian]

No. I don't know about anyone else in this 20-something page thread, but my reason for being against killcam is, I don't want Planetside to turn into CoD the MMO.
I don't get it. How does a killcam have anything to do with CoD other than that CoD is one of many games with a killcam. I seriously have problems following some people's logic. Even as a sniper or a cloaker I'm not buying the whole "it's an advantage to see your killer" argument really if players are moving around. If you died by a sniper in PS1 it was obvious it was a sniper. If you died by a cloaker it was also obvious. I mean hell you had the death rotating camera which was essentially a killcam. Why are people acting like seeing a 2 second preview of how the enemy killed you is a big deal? Like it's going to give away some super secret strategy or something.

[Raymac]

I don't get it. How does a killcam have anything to do with CoD other than that CoD is one of many games with a killcam. I seriously have problems following some people's logic. Even as a sniper or a cloaker I'm not buying the whole "it's an advantage to see your killer" argument really if players are moving around. If you died by a sniper in PS1 it was obvious it was a sniper. If you died by a cloaker it was also obvious. I mean hell you had the death rotating camera which was essentially a killcam. Why are people acting like seeing a 2 second preview of how the enemy killed you is a big deal? Like it's going to give away some super secret strategy or something.

As much as I've been arguing for killcams (well at least to not just dismiss the idea completely) I can certainly see the logic behind snipers not wanting to give away their position. For everyone else, I believe it is a non-issue.
-Assault doesn't stay in 1 spot for very long unless they are defending a choke point and if that is the case, the 5 minute long 360 rotating death cam from PS1 gives far more intel than a kill cam ever would.
-Cloakers have to move every time they make a kill or else they will get swarmed by the enemy or the guy they killed will go right back to where he died and take him out.
-Vehicles....it hasn't even been brought up yet and for good reason.

However, for snipers, it will give away your position.

I do agree with you though that the argument that just because something is in COD is reason enough that it should be banned from Planetside is, for lack of a better word, silly. If that's the case, then we should get rid of crosshairs and reloading. Good ideas for games didn't end in 2003, so even though "back in our day, we didn't have those new fangled do-hickies" that doesn't mean elements like kill cams can't be woven into Planetside 2 in an intelligent way.

[Lord Cosine]

Here is a question for everyone who is Pro Kill Cam.

There are a whole bunch of different types of kill cams currently being used in games, Refer to Figments Post on Page 3. What are the boundaries of your tolerance? Are you content with all of the various types or are there any that you would still be against even though you support the idea in general?

What if there was an up to 5 min Cam on detected post-death enemy?

[SgtMAD]

With a game that has as many players as Planetside 2 will.

The odds of you killing someone and the following happens:
They see your killcam/position
They wait to respawn (most likely not exactly at the same spot they died)
They find you (how this happens again is beyond me, enough time has passed that I guarantee you're not in the same position anymore where the player first saw you on the killcam)
That same person kills you because they saw your killcam.

All that happens before you die yourself, or they die again.

The server pop must be incredibly low.

Also, if I die and I see a killcam of 1 guy but the reason I died is because it was a huge 20v20 infantry standoff I don't see how the killcam ruins the game?

For the snipers, I love kill cams if I'm a sniper. I can kill a guy, then go and find a new spot. That guy sees my kill cam and tries to find me at the same spot and I kill him again because I moved 20 yards. Rinse Repeat.

In My Opinion the origin of the killcam into fps games was to get rid of campers (nobody liked campers in the old fps days). Now designers use it to help them flesh out hackers, help new players, and give insight to an experienced player as to why he died. It's not there to break immersion and mess up the guy who's getting the kills.

For the record I'm not in charge of what happens when it comes to killcam, I'm just throwing in my perspective as a player/lover of fps games. I'm for the killcam, but that's just me.

you honestly don't understand how this will get the shooter killed?

I get shot and I die to a sniper that has his position revealed by a cam shot, I then send the 50+ ppl on my vent server to that exact spot and the guy is dead meat.

so go ahead and add the cam shots, the shit storm on the forums after release due the the shortened lifespan guaranteed by the position given away with every kill.
this was easy enough to do in PS, the kill cam is just going to make it so friggin simple that its going to be ridiculous.

[kilroy]

I personally do not want kill cams in Planetside 2 in any variation.

I want to die, I want to see my body fall in third person, I want to the tea bagging to commence, and then I want to respawn. And while my corpse is being violated I want to know what is happening in my immediate vicinity. I want to know if my teammates are dying or not and how they are reacting to the threat. I do not give a crap what joe shmo who killed me is doing (especially in a game the size of planetside).

I don’t like the kill cam in Call of Duty because more times than not it just highlights latency issues.

In Battlefield I don’t like the kill cam because as previously mentioned I do not care what my killer is doing. This is boring and repetitive and I just end up watching the same model of a soldier running, standing, or driving repeated indefinitely. Don't make me suffer through this in planetside too. I do not need to see the cam of the door camping tank that has killed me 20 times in a row in the tower.

Kill cams just makes me angry, and when I am angry I set a bad example for my daughter, and when I set a bad example my daughter imitates, and when she imitates she gets expelled……long story short do not let me end up with a grandchild wearing a dog collar RadarX. The ball is in your court.

Edit: My opinion ignores all the problems with kill cam revenge junkies who will sniff you out if it’s the very last thing they do on this earth. I still hold those opinions but they have been explained in adequate detail.

[Sirisian]

What if there was an up to 5 min Cam on detected post-death enemy?
That's not a killcam. That's a spectator mode. :lol:

[Gortha]

Well hopefully I'll get into the beta and look at this objectively. There's been good points on both sides. Shouldn't be terribly difficult to find that middle ground but I think it's very important that those who don't want killcams in the first place not be forced to get an implant to negate it.

A toggleable option for all players to see and be seen may be the fairest route aside from complete removal.

Sorry Tool, but which points are you talking about, that are good and reasonable for the guys who dont see a problem with Kill Cams?

All some peeps mentioned was the aspect that Newbes could learn a bit from it.
But that argument was crushed by several guys here.

So, where are the Points you are talking about which speak for a Kill Cam?

On the other Hand are just the Cons which are all well reasoned.

[Gortha]

I don't get it. How does a killcam have anything to do with CoD other than that CoD is one of many games with a killcam. I seriously have problems following some people's logic. Even as a sniper or a cloaker I'm not buying the whole "it's an advantage to see your killer" argument really if players are moving around. If you died by a sniper in PS1 it was obvious it was a sniper. If you died by a cloaker it was also obvious. I mean hell you had the death rotating camera which was essentially a killcam. Why are people acting like seeing a 2 second preview of how the enemy killed you is a big deal? Like it's going to give away some super secret strategy or something.

You don´t understand the argument (ur not buying it...lol), because u are clueless. You never played in a good Outfit or with good Players. Not in Planetside nor in any other Team-Play Shooter.

Else you would know what a good Squad/Team can do with Kill Cam Intel.
Depending on what you see on the Kill Cam and how good, intelligent, experienced your Squad/Team/Mates are and how good they adapt to the Situation which is created out of the Intel it can be disastrous for the Ones seen on the Kill Cam.

No offense, sorry, i don´t disrespect you, but you just don´t know what you are talking about.

Gortha

[Gortha]

you honestly don't understand how this will get the shooter killed?

I get shot and I die to a sniper that has his position revealed by a cam shot, I then send the 50+ ppl on my vent server to that exact spot and the guy is dead meat.

so go ahead and add the cam shots, the shit storm on the forums after release due the the shortened lifespan guaranteed by the position given away with every kill.
this was easy enough to do in PS, the kill cam is just going to make it so friggin simple that its going to be ridiculous.

this! that! and w0rd!

[Mastachief]

I really do not see the point in a kill cam. I only see it as an advantage given to someone that died for their next assault. The original sinning camera of your dead corpse sufficed for me.

This said i'm all for it running out of our access so if you /report someone it submits the killcam to a GM/CSR.

[CutterJohn]

you honestly don't understand how this will get the shooter killed?

I get shot and I die to a sniper that has his position revealed by a cam shot, I then send the 50+ ppl on my vent server to that exact spot and the guy is dead meat.

Fine. Whatever. Lets run with this. This means, every time you die you're going to pipe up on TS and tell your buddies to go kill the dude that killed you? Cool. Oh wait, there are 50 other people doing the same thing.

Crap! 3 people died on the way to kill the sniper, now there are three more people to go kill! But 5 more died this time! 10! 20! 50!

So go right ahead and do that. I'd love watching you guys fail to accomplish anything. :)


More realistically: You'll pipe up on TS, and 50 people won't care because they have their own targets to deal with, and they can't or won't put whatever it was they were doing aside because you couldn't bother keeping your head behind some cover. They'll tell you to quit crying.

And you won't care because you'll be sitting there trying to find him(Protip: He moved), and will probably get sniped by him again since you are sitting still. Or get killed by someone else. Or he already died by someone else and isn't even there anymore. Eventually you will give up bothering to look for them because it just isn't worth it.

[Timey]

1) Current killcam in planetside gives away way more information than the killcam in, say, bf3.

2) oft times in bf3 when I get shot by a sniper in the more open maps, I can only tell my friends at mumble that a sniper got me from "the bushes", "at the rocks", "window." Sure, sometimes I can pinpoint the shooter, but the most helpful bit of information to my mates is "a sniper got me." which makes them focus on places a sniper would hide a bit more.

2.2) when I get shot and see the guy in killcam and I have no idea where he is usually means that he's not in the places you'd generally expect someone to be. I can make out the direction of the shot with or without the killcam (and even if I couldn't, logic would still dictate he is somewhere where he is not supposed to be, because one always keeps eyes on the most expected places), so even without the killcam I'd know he's in a somewhat eccentric place -> teammates start checking places not used by the normal Joe.

I don't get the crying over this subject. It's not a big deal. It takes away very little from your "tactical" gameplay. Besides, a smart sniper is always on the move.

I don't really care if it's in or not, I'd like if it was in but I'm not going to spend a second thinking about the subject if it's not. I'd sure as hell wouldn't want the ps1 style killcam making a return, though.

[Rabb]

I was going to say I'm neutral on the subject of kill cams because in a game with the scope of PS2 they take away and add very little to the tactical game play.

But after thinking about it some more I'm now against them because they have such a small effect on the game they are just a waist of programming time that could be spent on more useful features.

[SgtMAD]

Fine. Whatever. Lets run with this. This means, every time you die you're going to pipe up on TS and tell your buddies to go kill the dude that killed you? Cool. Oh wait, there are 50 other people doing the same thing.

Crap! 3 people died on the way to kill the sniper, now there are three more people to go kill! But 5 more died this time! 10! 20! 50!

So go right ahead and do that. I'd love watching you guys fail to accomplish anything. :)


More realistically: You'll pipe up on TS, and 50 people won't care because they have their own targets to deal with, and they can't or won't put whatever it was they were doing aside because you couldn't bother keeping your head behind some cover. They'll tell you to quit crying.

And you won't care because you'll be sitting there trying to find him(Protip: He moved), and will probably get sniped by him again since you are sitting still. Or get killed by someone else. Or he already died by someone else and isn't even there anymore. Eventually you will give up bothering to look for them because it just isn't worth it.

you do not have a clue who you are talking about , I can fucking guarantee anyone on TS with me will drop whatever they were doing and be right on that sniper, I run a tight friggin ship and I have weeded through hundreds of ppl to find the guys i played this game (PS)with.

do not assume your experience in PS resembles anything like mine, we ran an outfit that had a standing 3 minute rally rule and we never had ppl running off doing their own thing.Ht would call a rally and ppl had three minutes to recall and pull mossies and get to the rally point and i had officers watching who was late because those ppl would get kicked from squad the first time, the second time they were booted,we would split up and bind at different back bases to make sure we didn't get trapped by a long veh pad line.

Ht plays as an outfit, we don't split up,we don't run off and we keep our eyes on the target because if you violate any of those rules you get booted.

I have been a construction superintendant/foreman for over thirty years now and have extensive experience in managing large groups of ppl that are prone to sneaking off or screwing around on the job so handling motivated ppl on the internet is simple,you just have to weed through the chaff to get to the ppl that can deal with that kind of playstyle.

needless to say this results in older players and ex-military usually being the guys that find this playstyle comfortable.

[CutterJohn]

you do not have a clue who you are talking about , I can fucking guarantee anyone on TS with me will drop whatever they were doing and be right on that sniper, I run a tight friggin ship and I have weeded through hundreds of ppl to find the guys i played this game (PS)with.

do not assume your experience in PS resembles anything like mine, we ran an outfit that had a standing 3 minute rally rule and we never had ppl running off doing their own thing.Ht would call a rally and ppl had three minutes to recall and pull mossies and get to the rally point and i had officers watching who was late because those ppl would get kicked from squad the first time, the second time they were booted,we would split up and bind at different back bases to make sure we didn't get trapped by a long veh pad line.

Ht plays as an outfit, we don't split up,we don't run off and we keep our eyes on the target because if you violate any of those rules you get booted.

I have been a construction superintendant/foreman for over thirty years now and have extensive experience in managing large groups of ppl that are prone to sneaking off or screwing around on the job so handling motivated ppl on the internet is simple,you just have to weed through the chaff to get to the ppl that can deal with that kind of playstyle.

needless to say this results in older players and ex-military usually being the guys that find this playstyle comfortable.

http://i.imgur.com/ry4Fd.png


Seriously, thank you. That was the best laugh I've had all day. :rofl:

Though one has to wonder why such an amazing leader is pulling his guys off of their otherwise important duties to handle a little sniper. Oh well. I suppose not everyone has a good grasp of priorities. The sniper will be happy to know how much of a disruption he's been to your obviously well laid plans. :D

[Gortha]

http://i.imgur.com/ry4Fd.png


Seriously, thank you. That was the best laugh I've had all day. :rofl:

Though one has to wonder why such an amazing leader is pulling his guys off of their otherwise important duties to handle a little sniper. Oh well. I suppose not everyone has a good grasp of priorities. The sniper will be happy to know how much of a disruption he's been to your obviously well laid plans. :D

CutterJohn you can not be taken serious.
You are just trolling for the sake of saying the opposite.

It obvious you also never played in a good Team or know what Teamplay is.
You are on the same level of knowledge as Sirisian.


@ Timey

Read the thread. There are more than enough examples which explain how
the free intel a Kill Cam provides can be used and next to the Killer what else Intel could be provided.

[Timey]

CutterJohn you can not be taken serious.
You are just trolling for the sake of saying the opposite.

It obvious you also never played in a good Team or know what Teamplay is.
You are on the same level of knowledge as Sirisian.


Textbook example of an ad hominem right there :)

I did read the topic, well, not word by word. I didn't see any topics that I remember of back in PS complaining about the killcam in that game, funny.

[Gortha]

Textbook example of an ad hominem right there :)

I did read the topic, well, not word by word. I didn't see any topics that I remember of back in PS complaining about the killcam in that game, funny.

ad hominem...:doh: To explain myself,
from what he is writing it looks like he never experienced the teamplay of a bunch
of mates, which work together to excel, to perform well. In the E-Sport Scene
or just in good Clans who play tactical Shooters, it is pretty common to share
Intel, talk to each other to win the match. Information which is accurately communicated is essential to gain the advantage over the enemy.
When someone is questioning that while it is common and successful mechanic in Teams/Clans - it is obvious that this person has no clue what he is talking about.

It´s not to affront him, but if someone is blatantly wrong it must be said.

________

Which Kill Can in Planetside are u talking about? The Death-Cam?
That was something different to a KillCam.

[Timey]

I think he was just pointing out that i'ts quite hilarious that the other guy said that his entire teamspeak would drop whatever they were doing and go for the sniper. And it is quite hilarious.

[CutterJohn]

That, and the ridiculously over the top nature of the response.

"you do not have a clue who you are talking about"

Oh god i got the giggles again.

[Raymac]

you do not have a clue who you are talking about , I can fucking guarantee anyone on TS with me will drop whatever they were doing and be right on that sniper, I run a tight friggin ship and I have weeded through hundreds of ppl to find the guys i played this game (PS)with.

I think this is an important point to distinguish. You weeded through a large number of scrubs to find an exceptional group. That's awesome, but in your own words you are saying that these players are the exception and not the rule.

As CutterJohn said, the Planetside battlefield is extremely dynamic, so you may be on your way to take out that sniper, and a couple tanks come over the ridge which require your attention, or there is a whole platoon of infantry between you and the sniper that bogs you down, or maybe there is a router to the gen and you have to resecure that.

So apart from some of the elite disciplined outfits, the more common reaction is people will take more cover from that direction to avoid the sniper as much as possible.

Also, I think it's important to note that 90% of the argument against the kill cam is focused on the effect it will have on snipers and nobody else. Cloakers have been brought up too, but from my personal experience, if a cloaker stayed in 1 spot in PS1, his life expectancy was very very short.

So, if the only downside is to snipers, and everyone is not going to be a sniper, then there can certainly be a way to make kill cams work with snipers.

[xSquirtle]

Kill the killcam!

[Graywolves]

In the original planetside you could die on an AMS and say "OS here"

or die in a corridor and tell your team how many people are coming and exactly what is coming "2 AI MAX, 5 Rexo, 3 noobhammers, 2 gauss" (we all know that's really 5 jackhammers but you get the point)


But it also allowed you to see if you were being rezzed or what the situation was in your immediate area.


With killcam you get intel in a different area and of possibly a high value target. "Ambient just killed me and I see him on a tree on that hill 2 clicks north of our wall." And yeah if five people head out on foot they might not make it. But a reaver will get there in 2 seconds.

Of course there is the possibility of gaining more intel around your killers general area.

Also with killcam you lose sight of your area where you might be getting rezzed.

On a game this scale I don't see it working educationally. You got killed by a tank? Nice let's show you what you already know. (if you didn't know it's in killspam too) Knifed by cloaker? Cool let's show you again! Shot by 5 people? Let's show you the one with the final shot.

Planetside isn't a big game of team deathmatch.

[Gortha]

...

Also, I think it's important to note that 90% of the argument against the kill cam is focused on the effect it will have on snipers and nobody else. Cloakers have been brought up too, but from my personal experience, if a cloaker stayed in 1 spot in PS1, his life expectancy was very very short.

So, if the only downside is to snipers, and everyone is not going to be a sniper, then there can certainly be a way to make kill cams work with snipers.

No, no and no.
It´s not just about snipers and cloakers.
What is so hard to understand?

Knowledge about Position, Gear, Amount and kind of Enemies, Moving direction is essential.
Every frekin military movie, CIA, James Bond ... you´ve seen, should tought you how important information is if you not experienced it yourself.

Here a Non-Sniper example:
When i got one or just two Mates in my Squad in Reavers or Mosquitos,
and i was fragged at the outer corner of the front by someone, somewhere but i know via Kill Cam where he is and i also saw, that he got, No Anti-Air-Weapon on his back, is wearing Rexo-Suit, with him is a Mate in AI-Max plus two other Agilos with just Jackhammers, one or both of them will be there in seconds and kill the whole bunch of of em. My other mates in Vioce will also know their direction and head for them if they have no other Victim in her Crosshair right in that moment.

There are unlimited other scenarios where Kill Cam Intel can reveal Information you´d never become otherwise.

And i say it again.
In E-Sports/Clanwars KillCam is OFF in all Shooters(tactical)...perhaps not in Quake3...
There is a reason it is.

[Lunarchild]

On the other hand, CoD-like killcams show you the terrain from a different point of view, it shows you how you might have avoided your untimely demise.

Seeing things from the killer's perspective shows you the flaws in your own playstyle rather than the advantages of theirs.

I do feel that some people are being extremely elitst in this thread, and not care about new players that never played Planetside before. If we want to have fun opposition, as well as a game that lasts, I think we should be a little more open to those kinds of people as well.

I am not saying that existing killcams are the perfect solution, but I do trust the PS2 team to figure out something that works for PlanetSide 2. It will probably be different from anything we know to fit this kind of game, however.

[xSquirtle]

Biggest sniper/cloaker nerf, ever.....

[Raymac]

Here a Non-Sniper example:
When i got one or just two Mates in my Squad in Reavers or Mosquitos,
and i was fragged at the outer corner of the front by someone, somewhere but i know via Kill Cam where he is and i also saw, that he got, No Anti-Air-Weapon on his back, is wearing Rexo-Suit, with him is a Mate in AI-Max plus two other Agilos with just Jackhammers, one or both of them will be there in seconds and kill the whole bunch of of em. My other mates in Vioce will also know their direction and head for them if they have no other Victim in her Crosshair right in that moment.

There are unlimited other scenarios where Kill Cam Intel can reveal Information you´d never become otherwise.

And i say it again.
In E-Sports/Clanwars KillCam is OFF in all Shooters(tactical)...perhaps not in Quake3...
There is a reason it is.

I see what you are saying, but it doesn't really hold water for me. I mean when somebody next to me dies, I can see where those shots are coming from without him telling me anything. OK sure, you may be able to tell me if he has some buddies nearby a few seconds later, but that is less likely with the COD style killcam. Plus, I can get that same info by just a quick peek around the corner like Bruce Willis in that scene in 5th Element.

As for the E-sports thing, those guys don't need the beginner education that killcams provide so that tips the scales of value vs. drawback dramatically and is not a fair comparison.

[Lunarchild]

And i say it again.
In E-Sports/Clanwars KillCam is OFF in all Shooters(tactical)...perhaps not in Quake3...
There is a reason it is.

You do not want to go there, the reason for that is not exactly healthy for your cause. I'll give you a hint: it's the same reason they don't have the following in the esport "mods" / modes:


Health regeneration
Time to kill higher than 250ms
Radar / Map / Minimap
Any kind of hints on screen


So with your reasoning we should implement THAT in PlanetSide 2 as well... And here some people where complaining about the TTK reduction from PlanetSide 1...

[Gortha]

What has :

Health regeneration
Time to kill higher than 250ms
Radar / Map / Minimap
Any kind of hints on screen

to do with e-sports?

Have a look in the biggest League Online the Electronic Sports League,
there are many shooters which are beeing played. All with difefrent TTK, With or without Healthregen(Healing), With Radar without Radar/Minimap, With Crosshair without(just Iron Sights).

Perhaps i don´t get what u wanted to point out.
Well they have one thing in common when it comes to the Matches/Clanwars,
it´s restricted to view your opponents after death = No Kill Cam.

[Lunarchild]

With e-sports specifically it has to do with their number 1 point:

* It has to be interresting to watch someone play.

Killcams do NOT make it interesting to watch. Neither does high TTK or on-screen hints.

More general "e-sport" mods, and "hardcore mods" in general however (which is general used in e-sports and clan wars) have more to do with the following point:

* They would prefer us all to still be playing Quake 3, and make every shooter immitate this game to some degree.

More general: These kinds of rules are added because there is a core of people that cannot get on with the times. They are elists, and stiff. That is the real reason why these kinds of things are disabled in these so called "hardcore" mods.

[Gortha]

You are completely ingnoring that there is not only Quake 3 with white walls in 640x480 is palyed in the leagues. They compete in older and all current games which are worth beeing played in Leagues.

And no, the reason Kill Cams of all different kinds are turned off in all games is not, that it would be uninteresting for spectators/the crowd - it is turned off because of the lethal information the clans would tell their teammates which would be plain unfair.

Imagine a Clanwar in lets say in something like Counterstrike without Blackscreen or something... lol
The Teammates would just tell the exact positions of enemies. Absolutely Senseless to compete under such conditions :D

That has nothing to do with elitism its just about fairness.

Nice Friday everyone, i am out, drink some beer.

HF
Gortha

[Lunarchild]

I am not ignoring that fact, in fact you must've misread my post if you think that.

Regardlress for now I will agree that it would provide an unfair advantage to professional level players playing against professional level players. On the other hand BOTH SIDES have this advantage, making it no longer unfair. In a match for pure skill of players with nearly the same (high) skill level kill cams are not needed. For varried skill levels however we are talking about a completely different ballpark.

We are talking about giving people a chance to compete against players above their level. In an open-world game like PlanetSide, if you want to retain a decent sized player base things like this are a requirement. If someone that has little skills feels they have no chance against someone, nor chance to improve, they'll just rage-quit and never touch the game again.

Like I said, Elitism.

HAND.

[WaryWizard]

Killcam is bad :eek:

From previous information released I am assuming it will be a third person over the shoulder camera :(

this means staying zoomed in or quickly looking at the sky or ground will not work at hiding you position :mad:

The information that can be gathered from a killcam is as follows: position, numbers, movement direction, and equipment. :huh:

Some say that they don't need their teamate to tell them where the person that killed them is to know. Well unless you are staring at your teamate the hole fight you will sometimes know only " the shots came from South southeast. " Now you will know where they are, what they have, how many are there, and where they are heading. :scared:

Strategy and tactics will be thrown out the window for Suicide Soldiers (slight hyperbole. outfits will use tactics still, but the SS will be info gatherers):nazi:

Those who say the killcam only effects snipers are wrong. I don't want to have to watch the killcam when I die. "you can just skip it" Well I don't want even be required to press a button to skip it. I don't want to need to skip it. Skipping the killcam is the reason I stopped playing games like COD. It is infuriating. :furious:


TLDR: kill :sniper: the killcam

PS. I don't mind the killcam if it is permanently set to auto skip, and there is no way to view it, unless your the person checking the validity of a hacker report :lol:

[Raymac]

Hey, Gortha, speaking of ignoring, maybe the reason killcams are off in e-sports has something to do with the point that I made that you conveniently ignored:
As for the E-sports thing, those guys don't need the beginner education that killcams provide so that tips the scales of value vs. drawback dramatically and is not a fair comparison.

Have a great Friday.

[Graywolves]

Killcam is bad :eek:

From previous information released I am assuming it will be a third person over the shoulder camera :(

this means staying zoomed in or quickly looking at the sky or ground will not work at hiding you position :mad:

The information that can be gathered from a killcam is as follows: position, numbers, movement direction, and equipment. :huh:

Some say that they don't need their teamate to tell them where the person that killed them is to know. Well unless you are staring at your teamate the hole fight you will sometimes know only " the shots came from South southeast. " Now you will know where they are, what they have, how many are there, and where they are heading. :scared:

Strategy and tactics will be thrown out the window for Suicide Soldiers (slight hyperbole. outfits will use tactics still, but the SS will be info gatherers):nazi:

Those who say the killcam only effects snipers are wrong. I don't want to have to watch the killcam when I die. "you can just skip it" Well I don't want even be required to press a button to skip it. I don't want to need to skip it. Skipping the killcam is the reason I stopped playing games like COD. It is infuriating. :furious:


TLDR: kill :sniper: the killcam

PS. I don't mind the killcam if it is permanently set to auto skip, and there is no way to view it, unless your the person checking the validity of a hacker report :lol:

Another good point from the warywizard.

The emoticons made it a good and easy read too. I like to follow pictures.

[Crator]

Interesting read on the CoD killcam: http://callofduty.wikia.com/wiki/KillCam

[WaryWizard]

Another good point from the warywizard.

The emoticons made it a good and easy read too. I like to follow pictures.

I'm glad you liked it.:)

I try and make my points easy to follow and understand. Confusion and misinterpretation are the bane of posters.

[Raymac]

Those who say the killcam only effects snipers are wrong. I don't want to have to watch the killcam when I die. "you can just skip it" Well I don't want even be required to press a button to skip it. I don't want to need to skip it. Skipping the killcam is the reason I stopped playing games like COD. It is infuriating. :furious:

Like Graywolves, I appreciate the pretty pictures. If only Hamma could find a way to make pop-up book emoticons, the world would be a better place.

Just a couple of quick points:
-I think your first gripe about killcams giving away other players beyond just the killer is basically negated with the COD style kill cam. The 1st person view means you'd only see someone in the line of fire, and with friendly fire being on...

-Also, if your main problem with kill cams is that it makes you press a button, well cry me a river. Even if there aren't kill cams, you are likely going to have to press buttons when you play, unless you can set up the Kinect to work with PS2 in which case, I would LOVE to see that.

Whatever the devs come up with that will show up on the screen when you die (killcam or not), you are likely going to have to press a button or 2 before you respawn. I really hope something as minor as *click* isn't a serious deal breaker for you. Oh yeah, ;) :love: :lol: :thumbsup: :fro:

[Firefly]

http://i.imgur.com/ry4Fd.png


Seriously, thank you. That was the best laugh I've had all day. :rofl:

Though one has to wonder why such an amazing leader is pulling his guys off of their otherwise important duties to handle a little sniper. Oh well. I suppose not everyone has a good grasp of priorities. The sniper will be happy to know how much of a disruption he's been to your obviously well laid plans. :D
Best response I've ever seen. I have to say as much as I tend to disagree, I could not have written a better response. I laughed my balls off.

[WaryWizard]

Like Graywolves, I appreciate the pretty pictures. If only Hamma could find a way to make pop-up book emoticons, the world would be a better place.

Just a couple of quick points:
-I think your first gripe about killcams giving away other players beyond just the killer is basically negated with the COD style kill cam. The 1st person view means you'd only see someone in the line of fire, and with friendly fire being on...

-Also, if your main problem with kill cams is that it makes you press a button, well cry me a river. Even if there aren't kill cams, you are likely going to have to press buttons when you play, unless you can set up the Kinect to work with PS2 in which case, I would LOVE to see that.

well first I stated that I don't think the killcam was going to be in first person. Higby said that in the killcam you could see the ornament on the hood of the vehicle. One of two things either A the ornament is visible while in first person(would cause blind spots) or B the killcam is as I said third-person over the shoulder......well it could be bolth, but I find that unlikely.



Second it isn't pressing the button that annoys me it is that I find the killcam annoying and it automatically plays every time I die. That forces me to skip it every, single, time, I die.

My main problem is killcams are annoying to watch, and to make the game fun you need to remove annoying redundant things like killcams. Not animations though. Those are nice to look at, but I can understand the reasoning behind it. Maybe something for the future.

[Raymac]

Not animations though. Those are nice to look at, but I can understand the reasoning behind it. Maybe something for the future.

OK. I hear ya. And that really gets to the root of the matter. We are basing arguments off of a very vague idea of what the killcam will and won't be. If we had specifics, then we could discuss the merits of those specifics, but this is much more like a brainstorming session, which is still kinda cool.

As for the animations, I know this is OT, but when I found out how to skip the animations and get my vehicle moving faster, I did it because as cool as the animations were, they did get old.

[WaryWizard]

On that note I suggest a video be made and posted in here to show us the killcam so we can go at it with new vigor.:lol:

The type of killcam is very important. It could sway a lot of peoples opinions if they see its implementation. Such as infantry kills, vehicle kills various and other methods.

Would killing yourself give you a killcam???

[Gandhi]

Would killing yourself give you a killcam???
I think that would be like dividing by zero

[IronMole]

I'd rather SOE spend the time on the animation when entering and exiting vehicles and not some shitty kill cam that doesn't belong.

[Crator]

^^^ Someone didn't do homework. Really easy to implement killcam since it's just a replay of data collected already during the combat. Built in animations are already coded for this in the game and all it is doing is replaying those animations based on log data. Point being killcam easy to implement by developer without much dev time.

[Hipshot]

1. I hate watching myself die 2 times per death.
2. I hate to relay information to the enemy everytime i kill someone.
3. Out manouvering voicecom outfit players will get way to hard for newb soloplayers.
4. SOE should spend their resources on something better.
5. I hate watching myself die! :mad:

I have played multiple FPS and the killcams only fits in unserius shooters like COD and TF2. (Yes i take PS abit more serious then other tiny bbshooters :p )
In BF3 you are just getting punished evrytime you die with a killcam animation witch forces you to watch yourself die once more.
In Counter Strike they always disabled the killcam in tournaments and matches for a good reason.
I hope PS2 will be more then a 1000 player arcade shooter.

[HoovesMcG]

Im against it. I am SO fricken tired of every game developer catering to the retards and LAMER kids that cant handle actually figurin gout how to assault and not just rushing in like Twinkies.

Let there be some damn skill. The fact that Devs even thought this was a good idea shows how willing they are to scrap veterans and go for the re-re kid market. Its embarassing they would even consider this. Why not have giant traingles on everyones heads too. and no voip, and 4 man squads, Oh Wait that's Battlefield 3, made by a company that has single handedley RUINED the BF series by catering to Morons instaed of their veteran base. Don't even start down this road.

[HitbackTR]

Im against it. I am SO fricken tired of every game developer catering to the retards and LAMER kids that cant handle actually figurin gout how to assault and not just rushing in like Twinkies.

Let there be some damn skill. The fact that Devs even thought this was a good idea shows how willing they are to scrap veterans and go for the re-re kid market. Its embarassing they would even consider this. Why not have giant traingles on everyones heads too. and no voip, and 4 man squads, Oh Wait that's Battlefield 3, made by a company that has single handedley RUINED the BF series by catering to Morons instaed of their veteran base. Don't even start down this road.

This^^^^^^^I couldn't f**king agree more.

[Gandhi]

Oh Wait that's Battlefield 3, made by a company that has single handedley RUINED the BF series by catering to Morons instaed of their veteran base. Don't even start down this road.
Unfortunately marketing is going to look at BF3 selling 10 million copies and MW3 grossing over $1 billion. If you were in their shoes what conclusion would you draw from that? It won't be that BF3 ruined the series, that's for sure.

[HoovesMcG]

Unfortunately marketing is going to look at BF3 selling 10 million copies and MW3 grossing over $1 billion. If you were in their shoes what conclusion would you draw from that? It won't be that BF3 ruined the series, that's for sure.


Including these INSANELY lame azz features has nothing to do with it selling 10 million copies. Their marketing campaign did. They Sold the majority of those copies in pre orders when not a damn soul knew the extent of terribleness that game was becoming. In fact most of the forums there are littered with "OH MY GOD YOU RUINED IT" threads.

SOE, given the same marketing budget, (unlikely) and a pre order push that rivaled the Space program. Could sell 10 million. And not change a thing from PS1 bar the GFX engine.


The player base in BF3 has dropped sharply since release as well, since the gameplay is as shallow as a cheerleader.

But honestly we don't even have to go into that conversation to prove Kill Cam is a rotten idea. It will absolutly destroy what gameplay in PS1 was. All about teamwork. PS1 rewarded the team with More teamwork. Kill Cam gives a free look at the enemy because you SUCKED enough to get killed.

Its this God damned "every one get s a trophy, because winning isn't important" Bullshit that is dragging our society into the mud, and now its infected video games. So much that you cant just win on skill. You're given a "Oh its ok that you died, and to not make you feel so bad we'll show you where you were to F-ing stupid to look in the first place".

ARRGH Dont put it in!!

[Graywolves]

Unfortunately marketing is going to look at BF3 selling 10 million copies and MW3 grossing over $1 billion. If you were in their shoes what conclusion would you draw from that? It won't be that BF3 ruined the series, that's for sure.

For an MMO the primary concern is player retention and an increase in players overall, as opposed to copies sold.

Kinda like how SWTOR has millions of subscriptions but 1/4 of the players are already quitting.

[Fenrys]

My definition of a kill cam is about 2 seconds of footage from your opponents point of view. The 2 seconds end when your body hits the floor. It tells you what your opponent was doing, but not where they are going next.

I'd be OK with it if there were a cap on the range at which it triggered.

For example, if the player who frags you was within 10 meters, you get a kill cam (mostly indoors). Next time you're assaulting that base, you'll know to check behind that box.

If the player who kills you is farther away, no kill cam for you. If you want to figure out what cover the sniper or tank is hiding behind, you need to work for it.

[Logri]

Not a big fan of classic killcam myself, but perhaps what they mean is that it shows the moment of your death in slow motion or something instead of showing the enemy his location... would that be considered a "Deathcam" then?

[ShockNC]

the Killcam really only has two reasons to be in game. the first reason is to combat spawn campers (combine this with rotating, random spawn points and you neuter the spawn camper threat) and for E-Peen fapping.

the mobile nature of PS makes the first reason redundant and the second one an annonyance to the person sniping.

[Reginald]

So, what kind of a killcam is it.

1. BF - A 3rd person camera view of your killer, after your death. Revealing stats such as; Rank, weapon, attachments/spec, health @ time of kill.

2. Call of Duty - A replay of your death from the perspective of your killer

IMO the CoD way is the more "helpful" type.

[Talek Krell]

So, what kind of a killcam is it.From some of Higby's comments, I expect something like the CoD killcam, where it shows you a snippet of the past from your killer's point of view.

[Raka Maru]

IMO I don't think anyone should see anything from anyone else's point of view. This is not just a fragfest, but a strategy game.

[Aurmanite]

IMO I don't think anyone should see anything from anyone else's point of view. This is not just a fragfest, but a strategy game.

Planetside is a massive frag fest.

Chess is a strategy game.

[Zulthus]

Planetside is a massive frag fest.

Chess is a strategy game.

Planetside is both. There should be absolutely no killcam whatsoever.

[Raka Maru]

Fragfest yes, strategy yes.

Free intel from others POV, please no.

In another post I suggested a use for the killcams because I know they are so popular.

Flat screen TVs that loop with the winning empire kill shots after a base is captured. Gory kills that happened within the SOI as a reward for the new conquerors.

[DayOne]

Flat screen TVs that loop with the winning empire kill shots after a base is captured. Gory kills that happened within the SOI as a reward for the new conquerors.

I can see the choke holds on free information already.

Mmmm...taste that propaganda! :p

[Raka Maru]

I can see the choke holds on free information already.

Mmmm...taste that propaganda! :p

muwahahahaha...

Even 3rd person views of the slaughter would be ok after base is taken, no intel lost, epeens get stroked. Even broadcast to other bases of latest news from your empire, with war correspondents and everything.

This would look way better than a small message that Aton has been captured by the TR again.

You can expand on this greatly, with "News from the Front Lines" after territory was captured.

[Aurmanite]

Planetside is both. There should be absolutely no killcam whatsoever.

Planetside is a shooter.

You can use tactics and be strategic, but it is not a strategy game.

[Traak]

How about instead of just a kill cam, they email them our name, SSN, address, and where our children go to school? Why go half-baked?

[Aurmanite]

How about instead of just a kill cam, they email them our name, SSN, address, and where our children go to school? Why go half-baked?

Wow.

Lets try to keep our feel bads to ourselves, alright champ?

[Zulthus]

Planetside is a shooter.

You can use tactics and be strategic, but it is not a strategy game.

A strategy game is a game in which the player's decision-making skills have significance in determining the outcome of a battle. That is PlanetSide. Thank you, come again.

[Aurmanite]

A strategy game is a game in which the player's decision-making skills have significance in determining the outcome of a battle. That is PlanetSide. Thank you, come again.

Your decision make skills have a significance in everything you do, including playing a first person shooter where reaction time and reflexes will only get half of the job done. So, no, Planetside is not a strategy game. It's a shooter.

You're putting the Planetside on a pedestal man. You're building the Planetside up. You making the Planetside into this great big greek goddess named Planetsyledth, and whatchu doing is you pysking yourself into thinking it's more than it is.

[Raka Maru]

Planetside is a shooter.

You can use tactics and be strategic, but it is not a strategy game.

From commander POV, it's completely tactics and strategy if he sits on a hill and just gives missions out. :)

[Aurmanite]

From commander POV, it's completely tactics and strategy if he sits on a hill and just gives missions out. :)

Did you ever play 2142? Commanding on that was awesome.

It was almost a completely different game when you had a good commander and a few good squads working together. Good stuff.

[Zulthus]

Your decision make skills have a significance in everything you do, including playing a first person shooter where reaction time and reflexes will only get half of the job done. So, no, Planetside is not a strategy game. It's a shooter.

You're putting the Planetside on a pedestal man. You're building the Planetside up. You making the Planetside into this great big greek goddess named Planetsyledth, and whatchu doing is you pysking yourself into thinking it's more than it is.

It is a strategy game. It is also a shooter. It is both. There's a reason there's a lattice, commanders, waypoints, command chat, squad leaders, platoons, and all that juicy strategic stuff. That's for the strategy half. Then there are, of course, guns, which make up the shooter half. So yes, it is a hybrid of strategy/shooter.

And yes, Planetside deserves to be on a pedestal because it isn't the same cookie cutter shit that developers slap on the market nowadays. It's a unique game and I wish that the devs would keep it that way.

[Raka Maru]

Did you ever play 2142? Commanding on that was awesome.

It was almost a completely different game when you had a good commander and a few good squads working together. Good stuff.

Have not played 2142, but hoping leadership certs in PS2 will be as you describe.

[Aurmanite]

It is a strategy game. It is also a shooter. It is both. There's a reason there's a lattice, commanders, waypoints, command chat, squad leaders, platoons, and all that juicy strategic stuff. That's for the strategy half. Then there are, of course, guns, which make up the shooter half. So yes, it is a hybrid of strategy/shooter.

And yes, Planetside deserves to be on a pedestal because it isn't the same cookie cutter shit that developers slap on the market nowadays. It's a unique game and I wish that the devs would keep it that way.

You're kinda weird man, but I dig it.

Wrong about the strategy thing though.

Is Team Fortress a strategy game?

[Fenrys]

Flat screen TVs that loop with the winning empire kill shots after a base is captured. Gory kills that happened within the SOI as a reward for the new conquerors.

http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/2804/xzibithappyy.jpg

That would be pretty cool.

[DayOne]

muwahahahaha...

Even 3rd person views of the slaughter would be ok after base is taken, no intel lost, epeens get stroked. Even broadcast to other bases of latest news from your empire, with war correspondents and everything.

This would look way better than a small message that Aton has been captured by the TR again.

You can expand on this greatly, with "News from the Front Lines" after territory was captured.

This could be an awesome addition to the game. perhaps live footage from hot-spots that gets broadcast everywhere.

Even if it's not in at launch it'd be great to see something like this further down the line.

[IronMole]

You're kinda weird man, but I dig it.

Wrong about the strategy thing though.

Is Team Fortress a strategy game?

Planetside is a game that does require strategy. ;)

[Aurmanite]

Planetside is a game that does require strategy. ;)

You can't argue with this.

My strategy was often set around killing everything that moves.

[Zulthus]

You can't argue with this.

My strategy was often set around killing everything that moves.

So make up your mind. Yes, it is strategy, or no, it isn't? Pick one and stick with it. I'm not the only weird one, someone can't wrap it around their head what strategy actually means...

[Aurmanite]

So make up your mind. Yes, it is strategy, or no, it isn't? Pick one and stick with it. I'm not the only weird one, someone can't wrap it around their head what strategy actually means...

Yeah, and that dude is you.

Planetside is a shooter. You can use tactics, you can have a strategy... be strategical... but it isn't a strategy game.

It's a shooter. Not a strategy game.

Risk is a strategy game.

[Zulthus]

http://imagemacros.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/your_opinion.jpg?w=720


No point in even arguing with you about it anymore, it seems everyone will have their own view on what it actually means. But, you know, whatever you say. :lol:

[Aurmanite]

http://imagemacros.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/your_opinion.jpg?w=720


No point in even arguing with you about it anymore, it seems everyone will have their own view on what it actually means. :lol:

www.dictionary.com

You can't have an opinion on a definition of a word, yo.

You can't link pictures of the dude unless you've actually seen the movie.

[Zulthus]

www.dictionary.com

You can't have an opinion on a definition of a word, yo.

You can't link pictures of the dude unless you've actually seen the movie.

The Big Lebowski. Great movie. You should watch it sometime.

[Aurmanite]

Derp.

[Zulthus]

http://edge.ebaumsworld.com/picture/Rizzor/beatingadeadhorse.gif

[Vancha]

Everybody, (yeah) everybody, (yeah) lets get into it, (yeah) get STOOPID (Come on)
Get retarded, (come on) get retarded, (yeah) get retarded.

It got retarded in hah, it got retarded in here.
It got retarded in hah, it got retarded in here.
It got retarded in hah, it got retarded in here.
It got retarded in hah, it got retarded in here.

[DayOne]

http://edge.ebaumsworld.com/picture/Rizzor/beatingadeadhorse.gif

I'm no zoologist but that isn't a horse.

[Gandhi]

I'm no zoologist but that isn't a horse.
Well to be fair it has been severely beaten, so it might be hard to tell...

[DayOne]

Yeah, and that dude is you.

Planetside is a shooter. You can use tactics, you can have a strategy... be strategical... but it isn't a strategy game.

It's a shooter. Not a strategy game.

Risk is a strategy game.

Risk is more of a gambling game, it relies heavily on chance. And yes it has elements of strategy, but so does Planetside!

Diplomacy is a strategy game. RTS's are strategy games.

[Graywolves]

It can't be NOT a strategy game when you have leaders commanding 50+ people deciding what areas to attack so that the empire can conquer the continent.

This isn't a match-based game. It's arguably a war simulation.


Before you say it isn't. Dark Skyes was commanded by an army veteran, we trained, we had SOPs, and were issued OpOrders.

You don't just go in and killfest. You can if you want but your outfit leaders want to win the continent and advance the war.


There's plenty of strategy bro.

[Aurmanite]

It can't be NOT a strategy game when you have leaders commanding 50+ people deciding what areas to attack so that the empire can conquer the continent.

This isn't a match-based game. It's arguably a war simulation.


Before you say it isn't. Dark Skyes was commanded by an army veteran, we trained, we had SOPs, and were issued OpOrders.

You don't just go in and killfest. You can if you want but your outfit leaders want to win the continent and advance the war.


There's plenty of strategy bro.

Sure, plenty of opportunity to use strategy and be strategical, bro.

Off topic: Wouldn't the world be a better place if we removed the word 'bro' from our language? Man that would be sweet.

I don't understand why you guys find this such an affront to your notion of the game. Well I do, because your sense of identity is strongly tied into this game that you've invested so much time and energy in. It is that which I don't understand. You have to divorce yourself from this discussion.

Planetside is a shooter. It doesn't make it any less of a game.

[Figment]

Page 34, really?

PS: Aurmanite, PlanetSide is not merely a shooter to most people.

Because now and then you control aircraft, making it a flight sim. What is the main game in World of Tanks is just another small aspect of PlanetSide, so we got Tank Sim. Infantry is another such aspect, so we got FPS. (Map) Command is another, on many levels - even if not everyone always listens, so we got RTS. Leveling and role playing a soldier within an empire with other players who do the same is another thing PS does, so we got ourselves a RPG. PlanetSide, is combined arms with many layers of combat and strategy that goes far, FAR beyond what the people you argue with define as a shooter.

Basically you are argueing with people who define Wolvenstein, Quake and GoldenEye64 as a clear example of a shooter, because FPS in random, chaotic skirmish is all you do. BF3 probably is on the edge of it, but still too small scale to be called a war game and still instanced.

If you set missions in game for other players to follow, you are the one making strategic decisions for others. Is that something one does in a random shooter?

Just because you now and then are infantry (and you are incapable of seeing beyond that because once you hold a gun that's all there is to it), doesn't mean it's "just a shooter" because your definition of ANY GAME where you fire a gun is just a shooter, doesn't mean the game ends there.


PlanetSide is pretty much everything war related rolled into one game. PlanetSide is basically what C&C would be if every unit was controlled by a player. I'm sure you feel that command type games - RTS - can only be done from omnipotent godview where the pawns always do what you want, but RTS means Real Time (check) strategy (check). It doesn't say it has to be a board game or seen from above. Battalion Wars is a game where you command a bunch of units from the ground and one in specific, yet the sole difference is they're not other players.

So great, you think of it that way because of your frame of reference (somewhat narrowminded IMO, but you are entitled to that opinion), they think of it another way. Can you just agree to disagree?

[Neksar]

This poll doesn't capture the caveats that players would want for a killcam. I'm on the fence about it myself, but the idea behind a killcam is to give players something to look at while they died, and maybe to learn from it. Well, at least that's what I thought. In a game like Planetside, players on Teamspeak, Ventrilo, Mumble, what have you, will likely be using them to pass on information, and that's why most don't agree with the idea.

The biggest beef people seem to have with killcams is their potential to be used for information. What if 'stealthy' methods of killing didn't have killcams? Say, knives, sniper rifles, and suppressed weapons didn't have them. Cloaked infiltrators shouldn't show up on any kill cams at all, even if one could normally see their outline (assuming PS1 infiltration suit mechanics). Would that make it any better?

Now, the first response to that would obviously be, "Well, what if my derpy friend has a loud gun and mine's suppressed? Then I'm right boned!" My response to that is, "Tough luck." Stealth is something best left to infiltrators and organized squads. If one person you're with is going loud, it's roughly analagous to one Navy SEAL not having a suppressor, and that's a pretty big deal (as if to say my knowledge about Navy SEALs isn't safely tucked away between the categories of 'fuck' and 'all.').

Of course, there might not even be suppressors in the game, so that could go right out the door to begin with.

Off-topic: A game stops being a shooter when 'gun' stops being your primary method of interacting with other players. Planetside is a shooter, yes, but it also has a bunch of other elements. In the end, it's still a shooter, albeit a very complex one.

[Aurmanite]

Page 34, really?

PS: Aurmanite, PlanetSide is not merely a shooter to most people.



Exactly. It is an extension of themselves. Which is why they will go to any length to defend their perception of it. No matter how skewed it may be.

The rest of your post is a lot of typing that doesn't really need addressing. Wolfenstein was released in 1992, that was 20 years ago. Modern shooters have things like tanks and aircraft and mission systems. They are still just shooters. They are not simulation games.

Shooters.

I'm not going to agree to disagree because that is some sort of compromise intended to concede that both sides are right. In this case, they are not.

I will knock it off though, cause this thread is about killcams and not about defining the genre.

It's all part of the push to 50 pages.

[Gandhi]

Which is why they will go to any length to defend their perception of it. No matter how skewed it may be.

Just to let you know, your perception of what this game should be is just as skewed as theirs.

[Aurmanite]

Just to let you know, your perception of what this game should be is just as skewed as theirs.

Wat?

I haven't once said anything about what I perceive this game 'should be'.

I'm looking at a ***** and calling it a *****.

[Raka Maru]

Did you ever play 2142? Commanding on that was awesome.

It was almost a completely different game when you had a good commander and a few good squads working together. Good stuff.

Aurmanite, by your own definition of 2142.

When a PS2 player rolls a commander it turns into a strategy game. Dude, think about this, it makes sense.

[Raka Maru]

This could be an awesome addition to the game. perhaps live footage from hot-spots that gets broadcast everywhere.

Even if it's not in at launch it'd be great to see something like this further down the line.

It could be by a five minute delay, but war correspondents announcing, "The New Conglomerate has a significant presence in Searus this morning, lots of bloodshed but the Terran Republic are holding their ground although severely outnumbered. Here is some footage of our heroic soldiers in action."

Of course skewed by empire propaganda. :D