Tactical use of... Smoke

[Grognard]

The last time this was brought up was about half a year ago... so I think its a good subject for review...

I really hope tactical smoke is in, for many purposes...

1. Diversions.
2. Marking targets.
3. Vehicle obscurement.
4. Sniper countermeasures.
5. Concealment for advance to contact, and break from contact.

Those are just off the top of my head. I think I read that smoke is in, but there seems to be few people talking about it, even as a side reference, if at all. I know there was, previously, some concerns about poly count/lag, and it was addressed then, so Im convinced Forgelight can handle it. Insights?

Furthermore, what else do we know now, any confirmations? Is it in, and do we know some of the uses, and delivery systems planned?


Edit: The order in which I listed them was driving me crazy...

[Gogita]

The biggest problem is if people spam it, don't want it

[Tikuto]

4. Vehicle obscurement.

but there seems to be few people talking about it
Galaxy defence. :nod:

[Lonehunter]

I'd love to see smoke nades in the game, only 1 per person is a must though.

Smoke should hide names/healthbars though, even with Enhanced Targeting.

[Oryon22]

Wouldn't the smoke kill people's FPS? Thats a hell of a tactical advantage.

[Grognard]

Wouldn't the smoke kill people's FPS? Thats a hell of a tactical advantage.

LOL, I got a good laugh out of the "tactical advantage" part :rofl:

Seriously though, I hope its not a problem, if it is, then its not a good thing.

[Lonehunter]

If Forgelight can handle volumetric clouds, rays of light, a day night cycle, and smoke from wrecked vehicles, I think it can handle smoke grenades.

Plus with almost every mention of how awesome the graphics are they mention how everything is scale-able, so I'm sure there will be a low end smoke grenade graphic, it certainly won't be something you can toggle off

[Gandhi]

6. Magic tricks

Or am I the only one who immediately thought about making a character named CrissAngel who runs around in an infil suit dropping smoke grenades?

[Graywolves]

Using smoke will be cool.

I almost hope it's possible to get an implant or thermal scope so a couple people that are close enough can look into it.


Imagine if you could throw smoke INSIDE the base and activate your thermal imaging implant and shoot at people.

[acosmo]

i believe it's been said that there will be vehicle smoke launchers. (as an ungrade

[Seagoon]

Smoke is a vital tactical tool and has a hundred uses, the game will seriously be missing somthing if its not included atleast as a handheld or launchable grenade.

And if the game can handle volumetric clouds im sure the comparitivly small ammounts of smoke at ground level wont make much difference.

But on top of the grenade types, having smoke launchers on vehicles to defend themselves or cover infantry as they disimbark would be awesome. If smoke is too OP then some simple upgrades either a scope or an implant or somthing that would alow you to see through smoke would help ballance this out.

As for smoke indoors, well having the view range drop to one or two feet infront of you can be fun and changes the gameplay in an interesting way.
But you could have vents that suck the smoke away very quickly or somthing as an excuse for them not working inside if that does not work out well.

[Coreldan]

Smoke is always something I find almost mandatory in a game like this, however it does have the problem of having hundreds of players on the field with smokes? Sounds nasty if they all spam it :D Other thing is that it kills FPS for many.

I think one way to handily limit them could be only offering it through certain vehicles and the underslung launchers. The launchers probably have some downsides to them alone, and not everyone will use weapons that can/is worth it to equip with a nade launcher.

But I can't really agree with giving like one smoke per player. Many games give it to the squad leader-person and support, but that would require that PS2 will give extra loadout to the person who happens to be the squad leader, sounds inconvenient.

[Graywolves]

Smoke is always something I find almost mandatory in a game like this, however it does have the problem of having hundreds of players on the field with smokes? Sounds nasty if they all spam it :D Other thing is that it kills FPS for many.

I think one way to handily limit them could be only offering it through certain vehicles and the underslung launchers. The launchers probably have some downsides to them alone, and not everyone will use weapons that can/is worth it to equip with a nade launcher.

But I can't really agree with giving like one smoke per player. Many games give it to the squad leader-person and support, but that would require that PS2 will give extra loadout to the person who happens to be the squad leader, sounds inconvenient.


Yeah, if smoke was implemented toward infantry use, I'd think it would have to be somewhere in the leadership tree, not particularly close to the bottom either.

[Death2All]

So long as it's not spamable as all hell and you can't lag other people's games up then it would be a nifty addition.

[Tool]

I hope there's forms of smoke grenades for infantry so long as they act like they should. Last long enough and pump out enough smoke to make them useful. To help prevent spammable situations if performance becomes an issue, smoke grenades could cost resources to acquire; so they're more of a tactical asset.

[Grognard]

6. Magic tricks

Or am I the only one who immediately thought about making a character named CrissAngel who runs around in an infil suit dropping smoke grenades?

Haha, Shhhh... youre on to me, damn! :)

[Draep]

Smoke is a vital tactical tool and has a hundred uses, the game will seriously be missing somthing if its not included atleast as a handheld or launchable grenade.

And if the game can handle volumetric clouds im sure the comparitivly small ammounts of smoke at ground level wont make much difference.

But on top of the grenade types, having smoke launchers on vehicles to defend themselves or cover infantry as they disimbark would be awesome. If smoke is too OP then some simple upgrades either a scope or an implant or somthing that would alow you to see through smoke would help ballance this out.

As for smoke indoors, well having the view range drop to one or two feet infront of you can be fun and changes the gameplay in an interesting way.
But you could have vents that suck the smoke away very quickly or somthing as an excuse for them not working inside if that does not work out well.

This dude has the topic covered right here. Good topic too, OP.

Me and my buddies use smoke all the time in Bad Company 2. It's most useful for crossing very open terrain-- I usually don't even get shot at as I'm advancing behind the smoke screen. We use the same tactic to fake people out, tossing out smoke to the route we don't want to use. That second tactic there came from counter-strike.

Also very good for fucking with snipers who you can't afford to put accurate rounds into from a distance.

[Coreldan]

Other thing I thought is that the commanders could be able to call in a smoke barrage. Much like OS is called in now.

However that would mean most of the infantry would miss out on this that they rarely do in other games. Then again, it would make the commander's role in supporting the very basic grunts much bigger, then again they might have their hands full with more pressing issues.

Then, perhaps leaders of squads being able to call in a smoke barrage with some sort of cooldown?

[BigBossMonkey]

I hope there's forms of smoke grenades for infantry so long as they act like they should. Last long enough and pump out enough smoke to make them useful. To help prevent spammable situations if performance becomes an issue, smoke grenades could cost resources to acquire; so they're more of a tactical asset.

Also to prevent spamming, just limit the amount of them there can be in a certain amount of area.

Example: Only 2 smoke grenades per 10sq meters.

[Grognard]

Also very good for fucking with snipers who you can't afford to put accurate rounds into from a distance.

Agreed, smoke alone, would go a long way to balancing out the ubiquitous sniperfests that will enevitably develop with so many players. It will not, however, make them useless, nor obso1337...

[Coreldan]

Other thing I thought is that the commanders could be able to call in a smoke barrage. Much like OS is called in now.

However that would mean most of the infantry would miss out on this that they rarely do in other games. Then again, it would make the commander's role in supporting the very basic grunts much bigger, then again they might have their hands full with more pressing issues.

Then, perhaps leaders of squads being able to call in a smoke barrage with some sort of cooldown?

[Raymac]

I used to think smoke would make me play better, but after I quit toking I realized that it only made me think I played better.

EDIT: ooohhhh, you mean in-game smoke. I guess I'm still feeling some residual effects. :cool:

[Grognard]

I used to think smoke would make me play better, but after I quit toking I realized that it only made me think I played better.

EDIT: ooohhhh, you mean in-game smoke. I guess I'm still feeling some residual effects. :cool:

Finally! I knew this would come up... we have only to wait a short time before we see a character like Ghandi's "ChrissAngel", or perhaps "CanabisCandy", or "JointOperations", hittin' smoke 'nads in a corner... :D

[Metalsheep]

I can only really see Smoke as a way to make it difficult for Snipers to pick out targets. Other than that, there really isnt anything stopping players from just opening fire at your smoke screen. Sure, it makes you hard to see, but when players fire into the smoke anyways, you can still be hit and killed, maybe just not as quickly.

Though i do like it as an Anti-Sniper measure. Maybe as like, an Armor upgrade/sidegrade. You get hit by a sniper, and you hit a button that spews smoke everywhere out of your armor. Concealing you from the second, fatal shot. It could also be used by cloakers to mask and escape, or to cause confusion by smoking enemies instead of using it defensivly, and he can pick out and kill a target in the smoke.

[Grognard]

I can only really see Smoke as a way to make it difficult for Snipers to pick out targets. Other than that, there really isnt anything stopping players from just opening fire at your smoke screen. Sure, it makes you hard to see, but when players fire into the smoke anyways, you can still be hit and killed, maybe just not as quickly.

I see your Semper Fi there (ex-marine here), so I assume you are talking about the difference between concealment, and cover, so this would be precisely the proper effect smoke should have... You will be concealed to some degree, but you are not safe...

[Hermes]

Didn't Higby mention something about smoke pops for sundy's as a possible upgrade? Or was I just getting too excited?

Linking in to the artillery debate (with a hope I don't derail) - maybe as an upgrade/alternate ammo for tanks and big artillery guns? Adding some mist or light smoke to the battlefield would be another nice softish asset for long range fire if you decrease it's insta-gibbing potential.


Massive-fan-on-hood counter upgrade for vehicles? ;)

[Metalsheep]

I see your Semper Fi there (ex-marine here), so I assume you are talking about the difference between concealment, and cover, so this would be precisely the proper effect smoke should have... You will be concealed to some degree, but you are not safe...

I was more trying to stress that in a Videogame, there is nothing detrimental for the enemy player to just fire away into your smoke screen. They dont really waste resources or ammo, they can just get more at a term. In fact, i think it makes you more of a target when you use smoke, as enemy players who see the smoke will fire into it to try to get a kill, or spam grenades, which really renders smoke useless. Though, this is where using Smoke as a distraction could actually work.

I only see a few truely useful tactics for smoke. It would be cool to add ,but perhaps it could be limited to certain classes or upgrade/sidegrades. I could see smoke being useful for cloakers and maybe light/jump pack infantry. But things like MAXs and Rexos probably dont need smoke, but could benefit from it a little from players who CAN carry it. Promoting some teamwork between the different classes.

[Seagoon]

I can only really see Smoke as a way to make it difficult for Snipers to pick out targets. Other than that, there really isnt anything stopping players from just opening fire at your smoke screen. Sure, it makes you hard to see, but when players fire into the smoke anyways, you can still be hit and killed, maybe just not as quickly.

Though i do like it as an Anti-Sniper measure. Maybe as like, an Armor upgrade/sidegrade. You get hit by a sniper, and you hit a button that spews smoke everywhere out of your armor. Concealing you from the second, fatal shot. It could also be used by cloakers to mask and escape, or to cause confusion by smoking enemies instead of using it defensivly, and he can pick out and kill a target in the smoke.

Yes players can open fire through smoke, but with out the ability to track and adjust their fire they tend to miss a lot. DONT STAND STILL, smoke is not a magical force field to protect you but instead its instant visual cover where ever you want it. move slightly and the opponent wont know where the hell to fire at.

Here are three other examples of using smoke to your advantage:

1.Using smoke on non IR equipped vehicles can blind them completely and force them to move, this can potentially force them to show their side or rear armour just to have the ability to shoot back, if they dont want to move then keep putting smoke on them till allied AT can deal with it, a great counter to camping vehicles. This also works for infantry such as snipers, you dont have to just smoke yourself or an area near you, with a smoke grendade from a launcher you can blind the opponent with out stopping you from being able to fire effectivly.

2. Smoke can be used to cover medics trying to revive people, this is kind of straight forward, smoke blocks the los of people camping dead bodies, they dont know when to shoot to kill the medic and the revived guy again.

3. Smoke can be used offensivly to provide visual cover when advancing on a opponents position: Imagine there is the back door to a base but you are being pinned down from fire from the walls, get your squad to pop smoke out in the path to the back door and run between it to cover yourself from accurate fire.

And thats just for hand held or launcher style grenades, dont get me started on vehicle mounted launchers.

[ThirdCross]

Didn't Higby mention something about smoke pops for sundy's as a possible upgrade? Or was I just getting too excited?

Yup, smoke has been confirmed for some vehicles. So the mechanics in place, they just need to implement it for grenades.

[Metalsheep]

Yes, but when you get 20 other players firing into your smoke, it becomes alot more hazardous. Or even just a single player who grenade spams your smoke. (Like the thumper.)

Im not saying im against smoke, i think it could be used very creativly. I particularly like the idea of Cloakers using it to mask their escapes if they are caught. (Ninja Syle.) Or using it ON an enemies position to cause chaos and pick out singular targets in the smoke. (Again, ninja style.) Maybe this could require some special optics for the cloaker to see through the smoke. And maybe the Cloakers smoke could interrupt Darklight vision, to give him a chance to escape a player(s) with Darklight.

[Draep]

I was more trying to stress that in a Videogame, there is nothing detrimental for the enemy player to just fire away into your smoke screen. They dont really waste resources or ammo, they can just get more at a term. In fact, i think it makes you more of a target when you use smoke, as enemy players who see the smoke will fire into it to try to get a kill, or spam grenades, which really renders smoke useless. Though, this is where using Smoke as a distraction could actually work.

I only see a few truely useful tactics for smoke. It would be cool to add ,but perhaps it could be limited to certain classes or upgrade/sidegrades. I could see smoke being useful for cloakers and maybe light/jump pack infantry. But things like MAXs and Rexos probably dont need smoke, but could benefit from it a little from players who CAN carry it. Promoting some teamwork between the different classes.

As I mentioned before, smoke has always worked for me. If it's 200m across open ground. I'll take smoke over nothing at all.

Also, you won't have to worry about spam. Most games have you choose smoke grenades over frag grenades, a very unpopular option unless you worry about concealment like i do.

[Seagoon]

Yes, but when you get 20 other players firing into your smoke, it becomes alot more hazardous. Or even just a single player who grenade spams your smoke. (Like the thumper.)

Im not saying im against smoke, i think it could be used very creativly. I particularly like the idea of Cloakers using it to mask their escapes if they are caught. (Ninja Syle.) Or using it ON an enemies position to cause chaos and pick out singular targets in the smoke. (Again, ninja style.) Maybe this could require some special optics for the cloaker to see through the smoke. And maybe the Cloakers smoke could interrupt Darklight vision, to give him a chance to escape a player(s) with Darklight.

Exactly, there are many different counters to using smoke, area effect weapons are one of them, or situations where an entire opponent platoon has its sights set just on you. But thats why smoke is even more suitable to include in the game:
Its not just a very useful thing, but it also is ballanced because there are ways to counter its usage.

[Grognard]

I guess what we are saying (at least me) is that smoke is a thinking mans tool. Smoke placement requires skill and forethought to maximize its usefulness, because it is not cover, it is concealment. The point of smoke is to counter target aquisition in the first place. Cover is used to mitigate damage if you are aquired. Using them together is just cake, ice cream, and sprinkles... ;)

[sylphaen]

Smoke sunderer assault soldiers = SmokeJumpers ?
:D

[NewSith]

Smoke sunderer assault soldiers = SmokeJumpers ?
:D

More like:
Ninja Assassin Scenes - YouTube

[Rumblepit]

if its implemented....

i think since its a defensive countermeasure that only engineers should be able get them ,thats if they speced into it. they are a defensive class.

[Grognard]

if its implemented....

i think since its a defensive countermeasure that only engineers should be able get them ,thats if they speced into it. they are a defensive class.

Elaborate please, smoke is used just as much in an offensive manner as defensive, so Im curious about your line of thought.

[Rumblepit]

Elaborate please, smoke is used just as much in an offensive manner as defensive, so Im curious about your line of thought.

hmmmm provides cover,and or a diversion.smoke is not gonna hurt anyone i hope. unless we get the ubber mustard gas nades.

[StraitDumpinSMF]

this is another bad idea.

Str8

[Grognard]

this is another bad idea.

Care to elaborate?

[Draep]

Care to elaborate?

Mostly everyone who's had a problem so far falls into the category of "I don't play like this so it must not be useful." They said the same thing when I called for the sunderer being more of an APC than a tank. No matter how many good points I made, they continued to form opinions born of ignorance.

[StraitDumpinSMF]

and by ignorance: you mean, someone who has actually played the game for 7 years, then imagined smoke grenades filling up and entire base interior, and rendered it a bad idea.

im assuming you want real smoke, not some skimpy cloud right?
well imagine 100 people tossing 5 second DURATION smoke bombs clouding up an entire base.

[Graywolves]

and by ignorance: you mean, someone who has actually played the game for 7 years, then imagined smoke grenades filling up and entire base interior, and rendered it a bad idea.

im assuming you want real smoke, not some skimpy cloud right?
well imagine 100 people tossing 5 second DURATION smoke bombs clouding up an entire base.

I can't even imagine 5 people tossing smoke unless they planned it before hand.

[Draep]

and by ignorance: you mean, someone who has actually played the game for 7 years, then imagined smoke grenades filling up and entire base interior, and rendered it a bad idea.

im assuming you want real smoke, not some skimpy cloud right?
well imagine 100 people tossing 5 second DURATION smoke bombs clouding up an entire base.

Yeah because if the implemented smoke, they would make it a lagfest, able to fill up a base right? Get fucking real before you post a response to me son.

[Shade Millith]

If... and this is a VERY big if... they can program it so that normal PC's (reasonably priced 2-3 year old) won't die during a 2k player battle that has liberal use of smoke nades, then yes. Put it in.

If they can't get that, then no.

It's not a matter of balance for this item. Just a matter of if the computers can handle it.

[Graywolves]

If... and this is a VERY big if... they can program it so that normal PC's (reasonably priced 2-3 year old) won't die during a 2k player battle that has liberal use of smoke nades, then yes. Put it in.

If they can't get that, then no.

It's not a matter of balance for this item. Just a matter of if the computers can handle it.

Or they could put it high on a leadership tree or something.

It's not like everyone would even use smoke if they all had it available. In games that it was available people rarely opted to use smoke because it doesn't get you a kill and is too situational.

[NEWSKIS]

The reason I dont want this now and didnt want it in the original PS is because of the ability to spam it. The same goes for the tear gas/flashbangs thing. It is something that has far more annoying uses than helpful ones. Especially in an mmo setting. Limiting each person to even 1 can still make horrible spam. My main reason against it is think of how people could grief with it. How would you like it if someone followed you everywhere putting smoke grenades at your feet. It would have far more negative impact than positive.

The only place for smoke in this game is for vehicles, whether its to block laser targeting or to cover an infantry dropoff.

[Rumblepit]

The reason I dont want this now and didnt want it in the original PS is because of the ability to spam it. The same goes for the tear gas/flashbangs thing. It is something that has far more annoying uses than helpful ones. Especially in an mmo setting. Limiting each person to even 1 can still make horrible spam. My main reason against it is think of how people could grief with it. How would you like it if someone followed you everywhere putting smoke grenades at your feet. It would have far more negative impact than positive.

The only place for smoke in this game is for vehicles, whether its to block laser targeting or to cover an infantry dropoff.

if implemented this item should be for engineers only. said engineers would have to choose what type of cover they wish to spec into. deployable cover, or smoke nades.

[DayOne]

As said before, make this an item that must be picked over something else, e.g. frag nades, and it will not be an issue. Lots of things could cause lag in this game, 2000 grenades all going off at once would destroy people's FPS. Thing is, it just wont happen. Unless you get a dedicated team of griefers there's no way you would get some mass smoke grenade war.

[Traak]

Being a support dude, I would like to ruin enemies' days by fogging up a whole forest where our guys were well-emplaced to take advantage of it.

[Rabb]

Smoke is a must for tactical games like this. Just last night I was pined down on BF3 wishing I had smoke to cover my escape.

[Justaman]

How about, make the smoke grenade only useable at the request of someone with sufficient leadership certs. They can tag a location, and anyone who has "side-graded" (losing something so that they can hold smoke type things) the smoke "grenade" (w/e) is allowed to throw it in the general vicinity of the mark. Once one is throw, everyone's use is blocked again.

The leadership ability would also have a cool-down.

[QuiCKaNdDeaDLy]

Smoke kills Framerate! I rather have a few Hundred Players more on the Field then a few Noobs spamming Smokenades to Grief People...

[Rabb]

Smoke kills Framerate! I rather have a few Hundred Players more on the Field then a few Noobs spamming Smokenades to Grief People...

Get a better rig or turn down the graphic detail. I'd rather have the smoke.

[Talek Krell]

Smoke kills Framerate! I rather have a few Hundred Players more on the Field then a few Noobs spamming Smokenades to Grief People...Everything on the screen kills framerate. Unless you're suggesting that the dev team switch to making a text adventure I think your argument is invalid.

[DayOne]

How about, make the smoke grenade only useable at the request of someone with sufficient leadership certs. They can tag a location, and anyone who has "side-graded" (losing something so that they can hold smoke type things) the smoke "grenade" (w/e) is allowed to throw it in the general vicinity of the mark. Once one is throw, everyone's use is blocked again.

The leadership ability would also have a cool-down.

This would probably lead to people having smoke and then being in a situation where they need it but cannot because there is no one with high enough leadership nearby.

[aleksandrgrc]

im all for more choices.

im just hoping the liberator have smoke rounds as well. now that its not a typical bomber.
for those of us that played call of duty, you may recall a certain ac-130 mission. its very clear that this weapon platform is more support and has the view it needs to help support the tactical and strategic level. and a bunch o different rounds would be perfect for this bomber to be doing exactly what the groundpoundrs need. (precission problem solving) that may or may not involve explosives.

and if i cant see from smoke i know at least i have my left leg cause no frag or a face cause no plasma.

now of course the liberator will play differently than the ac130 but i can see it being used similarly in certain situations. it stays outdoors. u wont see 2000 liberators firing smoke and if its to much. make it a requirement that a semi sustained barrage is needed to keep it around for anything more than 15 /20 seconds.

finally infiltrators with smoke is a decent idea. because it attracts the eye even if u cant see in the smoke it distracts and infiltrators may get to the right positions to best use it before other classes on the front line

[Hark]

Yeah, smoke would improve the gameplay but it would also slow down the server.

Flashes would be better.

[Ertwin]

The problem with flashes is they don't cover you, they blind someone else. This gives them less utility for covering your escape.

As for griefers, hopefully there will be some sort of reporting system, I don't think the GMs would be too upset if you flagged griefers as well as cheaters.

[Destroyeron]

Definitely need smoke grenades for the thumper.

[moosepoop]

make it a squad leader ability so its spammed less.

[DayOne]

Nice necro there guys.

Although now we know that smoke will be on the light assault class it kind of wraps up this thread. I still like to see smoke in action. If it's akin to the dust effects we saw in the demo then it will be pretty damn sweet.

[Grognard]

Nice necro there guys.

Although now we know that smoke will be on the light assault class it kind of wraps up this thread. I still like to see smoke in action. If it's akin to the dust effects we saw in the demo then it will be pretty damn sweet.

Gotta admit... I was happy to see this Nec... I mean thread come up again :D

Almost as happy as I am that smoke will be on the LA class, which is my favorite so far...

[Saieno]

I guess what we are saying (at least me) is that smoke is a thinking mans tool. Smoke placement requires skill and forethought to maximize its usefulness, because it is not cover, it is concealment. The point of smoke is to counter target aquisition in the first place. Cover is used to mitigate damage if you are aquired. Using them together is just cake, ice cream, and sprinkles... ;)

I also see smoke as a way to find enemy positions, most likely snipers. In other games for example we'd set up a spotter with a sniper and throw a smoke grenade in the middle of crossroads, as if we were going to conceal our movement. We'd throw something like an ammo bag or some C-4 into the smoke and the spotters would look out for a snipers bullet trail. Sniper then gets taken out by our sniper and we proceed; needless to say smoke has a multitude of uses.

[cellinaire]

Whenever I see the title of this thread, it instantly reminds me of Dave Jeorgeson.



=)

[Blackwolf]

I'd love to see smoke nades in the game, only 1 per person is a must though.

Smoke should hide names/healthbars though, even with Enhanced Targeting.

Actually I think Enhanced Targeting should see through it, maybe even bracketing targets in smoke.