The effect of large numbers (scale) on combat

[Figment]

Oddly I have not seen any discussions yet on the effect of having 2.000 players fighting down the street on overall combat.


Some subjects I'd like you to ponder:


How dispersed will the populace be during:

Offense
Defense
Invasion
Getting kicked off

Law of leverage

Firepower/Endurance differences between two groups
AoE weapon spam
Class use (Heavy Assault/MAX)

Unit acquisition

Waiting lists -> Amount of vehicle creation pads needed
Amount of units pulled -> Amount of heavy vehicles -> impact on battles

Building dimensions requirements

Internal (spawning / movement / choke points)
External (CY - gathering)

Outfit size / Crew size

Amount of troops you need to accomplish something
Amount of enemies you can handle
Shift in gameplay when outfit does something 'silly'

Duration of battles

Impact on other battles
Variation of combat environment



I'm sure you get the drift. Any ideas on what we can expect?

[AshOck]

I can imagine that even though we might be seeing a lot more players on one continent, given the resource value of each hexagon and a clearer view of where the front line really is, the battles will be more spread out over a variety of locations. Some big battles in and around hexagons leading to or that include bases and a lot of smaller battles in open territory and around towers.

It might also help figure out what exactly the enemies intentions are as you will be able to see them advancing in hexagons towards your own empires bases etc...

As for vehicle acquisition, I doubt there would be any more waiting than in ps1 .. also because the empire would be spread out over many regions and also because the bases will perhaps have enough vehicle terms for that not to be a problem.

Of course this is all highly speculative..but still fun to think about ;)

[polywomple]

i want to know if we can do sanc raids but 10 times bigger

http://www.blogcdn.com/massively.joystiq.com/media/2010/01/wysbpplanetside580.jpg

[Tasorin]

No one knows right now. The lucky few that may have got some in-game stick time shouldn't talk about it openly on a community form. So until they have a NDA lift we are all still mostly in the dark on the inner workings of actual in-game fps mechanics.

The effective range of rendering targets with visibility modifiers for weather and time of day and how that plays in with effective killing range of a factions weapon, be it vehicle or soldier. Will play an interlingual role in answering your questions for outdoor combat. Being able to be tank sniped over the horizon by something that the Client didn't render due to resource limitations is not going to be a hole lot of fun for squishes.

From what we have seen in the videos and the stills it looks like PS2 will employ a versatile outdoor environment with plenty of room on the Z-Axis for Air combat and terrain for tactical insurgency. The indoor layout has not really been seen besides stills to my knowledge. We have seen placeholder and Alpha Stage complex's in videos that are far more expansive then PS1 to lend for more urban style fighting.

[Hmr85]

i want to know if we can do sanc raids but 10 times bigger

http://www.blogcdn.com/massively.joystiq.com/media/2010/01/wysbpplanetside580.jpg

Ah, the good ole days. I remember when raids use to be that big. That's one of the reasons I cannot wait for PS2. They will make a return in full glory along with max crashes. With Sanctuary's out this time though will have to form up behind friendly lines to make those raids. Which runs the risk of exposure. Should be fun.

[DayOne]

It will have the effect of AWESOME!!!

Although with 8km x 8km continents there shouldn't be 1000 player zerg rushes into one corridor. With the size of bases, hopefully the implementation of a good command system and the mission system I think we should get pretty epic battles with everyone doing their part.

[Brusi]

I expect that there will be some awesome 3-way clusterfucks, which for the most part start to get frustrating as you die out of the blue over and over, from threats that spiderman couldn't have even seen coming.

The net effect being smaller skirmishes along the front lines and around the place due to small groups regulalry breaking off the main fights (perhaps also tempted away from the larger fights throught the mission system).

[Tamas]

Wow that looks cool. I hope for that epic feeling of "OMGWTFAWESOMESAUCE" when in large/huge battles and I mean fun I get when playing 128 BF maps and bigger - just massive massive battles. I miss them so much, tired of the 3vs4 small engagements that occur in all games now.

[Shogun]

the devs should skip the vs weapons week and replace it with a "massive multiplayer mechanics" week!
nobody wants to see that purple crap anyway.

but it would be great to get a real idea about the scale we are going to see.
t-ray always says FORGELIGHT BABY! but all we have seen is great graphics with only a few soldiers onscreen.
what i really want to know about forgelight is the number of players it will be able to show onscreen at once!
we hear of thousands of players fighting on one map and that´s great, but we got no info yet, how much of that action we can actually experience and behold!

[ringring]

One of my thoughts on seeing the sheer size of the bases was "they are going to take a long time to capture".

But it really depends on things we don't know ... for instance, you're defending the walls along with 4-5 of your mates ... an OS comes in and it happens that all your mates and the enemy you were shooting at are all taken out.
Now, how long does it take you to spawn and run back to the battle as compared for the enemy to do the same from their spawn point?

[DOUBLEXBAUGH]

With Sanctuary's out this time though will have to form up behind friendly lines to make those raids. Which runs the risk of exposure. Should be fun.

Every empire has an uncapturable warpgate/city on every cont. You can form up in the bubble and they cant shoot/os you. They can however, spy on your forming raid and prepare themselves for it.

[Qwan]

I figured it like this from the start, the makers of PS2 can see alone and get a general Idea of what there in for by looking at there fan base, they have to know that they are going to get 25K plus users initially just looking at the FB likes alone. And when and if they start pre order, this will give them even a better idea of what they might be dealing with as far as server loads. My personal oppinion the initial release is going to be alot of DC's and laggy ness. In PS1 you couldnt even drop on a continent because of population count, they would liturally lock continents because of the number of players fighting in a area. I cant remember what the number of persons allowed on a continent was, in PS2 they say 1000's of players at the same time fighting on the battlefield, will there be continent locks because of the number of players in one area. I guess well see when they launch the game, I actually do have one question, I live in the US East Coast, my outfit members are all from EU (i started playing PS back in germany) will i be able to join the EU server and not feel alot of lag and DC issues during big battles.

[Hmr85]

Every empire has an uncapturable warpgate/city on every cont. You can form up in the bubble and they cant shoot/os you. They can however, spy on your forming raid and prepare themselves for it.

Which makes perfectly good sense. Especially with them saying will be able to pull Galaxys from the Warpgate. I am assuming there must be small facility's in them now.

[Qwan]

Hmm i wonder since there making this a F2P game, were are they going to get the money to pay for the bandwith, and bug fixes and updates. I really feel that they should have kept it P2P, at least i know there is someone working on keeping my game running smoothly.

[exoteror]

Hmm i wonder since there making this a F2P game, were are they going to get the money to pay for the bandwith, and bug fixes and updates. I really feel that they should have kept it P2P, at least i know there is someone working on keeping my game running smoothly.

They will have options to purchase cosmetic items and such I belive, they may also have a subscription option for things like multiple skill queue.

I don't belive they have announced how it's going to work but personally it's the better option. I remember when they had planetside reserves and free players started playing, the games felt better because of the sheer numbers.

[Qwan]

They will have options to purchase cosmetic items and such I belive, they may also have a subscription option for things like multiple skill queue.

I don't belive they have announced how it's going to work but personally it's the better option. I remember when they had planetside reserves and free players started playing, the games felt better because of the sheer numbers.

I just feel better knowing that devs are getting a check, and not waiting for the results of monthly sales. :)

[Redshift]

Every empire has an uncapturable warpgate/city on every cont. You can form up in the bubble and they cant shoot/os you. They can however, spy on your forming raid and prepare themselves for it.

except warpgate camping was one of the most boring things in PS.
You waited at the WG until they headed out and got slaughtered or got bored and changed target

[DOUBLEXBAUGH]

I didn't mean they would WG camp. Just that they could have a scout flyby, see a massive raid forming, and relay that back to their side so that they could set up some more defenses.

[Coreldan]

I wonder if you can move from one continents foothold to another continents foothold while keeping your vehicles, etc? As in, like a warpgate inside the foothold. Or would it be like just a normal loading screen between diff conts and you will have to pull whatever you need from that foothold?

Cos if you can keep your vehicles in the transition, you could form the raid elsewhere and then warp it over to the appropriate cont so that you wont reveal the destination too early.

[ringring]

I wonder if you can move from one continents foothold to another continents foothold while keeping your vehicles, etc? As in, like a warpgate inside the foothold. Or would it be like just a normal loading screen between diff conts and you will have to pull whatever you need from that foothold?

Cos if you can keep your vehicles in the transition, you could form the raid elsewhere and then warp it over to the appropriate cont so that you wont reveal the destination too early.
Yea, you must be able to do this.

A little bit of misdirection will be required.....

[Shogun]

i hope the transit is something like in ps1. it was another thing that added to the immersion that you could get your vehicle and take it wherever you wanted.
this should really stay for ps2! and i think it will.

this way we could easyly simulate a sanctuary to form up raids and just use the warpgate to switch targets.

[Redshift]

I didn't mean they would WG camp. Just that they could have a scout flyby, see a massive raid forming, and relay that back to their side so that they could set up some more defenses.

yes but as soon as you see that you go and camp the WG

[Rumblepit]

i think problems will stem from the player v player collision , and the layout of halls,stair and doors, they need to be biggggg.

what type of collision will they be?

will the bases be able to accommodate this scale of combat?

[Figment]

So how about mass use of units?

Say mass use of Galaxies (20+) with say AA and AV guns on them. How will that affect combat?

What if a zergfit of say.... 120 people (3 platoons), decides to spam AoE weapons, artillery, MAX units or other unit types at a single base assault? In the past, that would have been the entire empire populace, now it could be one outfit in three platoons?

People used to crash the server by making loads of boomers explode at once. Can such things happen again?

[Traak]

We're gonna find out.

[Hmr85]

i think problems will stem from the player v player collision , and the layout of halls,stair and doors, they need to be biggggg.

what type of collision will they be?


Maybe a soft collision for friendlies and a hard collision for hostiles. I remember a thread awhile back regarding that. Maybe have it so collision still acts like it does today. But say for instance you get boxed into a corner by your own guys. You can still pass through the people in front of you boxing you in but at a really slow speed. This will help for the TR especially. I know those maxes would cover the entire stair well in a tower Fight. The ability to be able to get by them would be nice for you guys I am sure. Though at a reduced rate of speed if that makes any sense.

will the bases be able to accommodate this scale of combat?

I would Imagine that SOE is taking that into consideration. Especially considering the Increased numbers will be seeing this time around. If you remember correctly they released that image of the spawn room just recently. If you noticed it was night and day bigger than the previous one we had in PS1. Also the bases are 3 times the size of previous bases. I think SOE has it under control.

[ringring]

So how about mass use of units?

Say mass use of Galaxies (20+) with say AA and AV guns on them. How will that affect combat?

What if a zergfit of say.... 120 people (3 platoons), decides to spam AoE weapons, artillery, MAX units or other unit types at a single base assault? In the past, that would have been the entire empire populace, now it could be one outfit in three platoons?

People used to crash the server by making loads of boomers explode at once. Can such things happen again?
How about ...
Form raid in any foothold.
Immediately you gal is full or you have whatever vehicle move to the warp gate and deconstruct.
Wait in 'limbo' until CR5's decide on the target and announce it.

This way, the minimum number will be visible to any enemy.

However, the fact that there is a raid would still be obvious to anyone who can do simple arithmetic.

[Rivenshield]

with 8km x 8km continents there shouldn't be 1000 player zerg rushes into one corridor

There will be if the Terran Republic has anything to say about it. Bayonet charges without bayonets is our evil specialty.

[Figment]

I'm sure that if you would have bayonets, they'd be plug bayonets, not ring bayonets.