Solving the Reloading & Macro Complaints Together

[Shanesan]

It seems that there are two groups who are adamantly peeved over the same thing in two different ways.

First, we have the group that can't figure out if incorporating mini-game reloading would work in Planetside 2 (http://www.planetside-universe.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38881). Do we have:

A system that has a minigame during a reload to immediately reload?
Have a gun modification which performs the reload minigame?
Neither, and have reload play out normal?
(This thread eventually went to "how should reloading work anyway?")


Then, we have the anti-macro crowd, whom are angry that people will use macros to do things (http://www.planetside-universe.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38869), such as reload their gun (as well as other operations). Macros would also cause harm to the manual-reloading crowd:

Making it one less button to push in an intense situation.
Insta-winning the reloading minigame battle with a simple macro.
Pressuring users to install macro tools to stay competitive.
Ultimately taking from the metagame experience.


So I ask a simple question - how about a magazine system? Planetside 1 already had this practically available, just not utilized. This would also prevent scripted/macro'd reloads and makes Higby's recommendation here (http://www.planetside-universe.com/forums/showpost.php?p=632490&postcount=9) a very useful, balanced ability. To break this idea down to Too Long; Didn't Read version, I have added colors to assist that.

Magazine System
Say you have five magazines of ammo. Each has 30 charges/rounds/whatever. You fire X of those charges/rounds and you realize you're almost out. You reload and go to the next magazine. That previous magazine is POCKETED to be used later.

Four magazines later, you [run out of/are low on] ammo on your last magazine. In normal games, when you're out of bullets, you're out of bullets. However, you saved some ammo in the previous magazines, on purpose or by accident, for just this situation.

Now you have two options.

Reload, which pockets the [near] empty magazine and loads up your [first old magazine or maybe the magazine with the most ammo?] which has a couple rounds in it. HOLD DOWN RELOAD which takes a little longer (10 seconds?) and transfers all your leftover rounds to one (or more) magazines. This can be done at any time - even while moving - but disables your ability to shoot since you're juggling magazines.

This way, a mini-game winning macro is less useful because it's not as simple anymore, and a reloading attachment to a gun becomes much more meaningful, ESPECIALLY if it automatically sorts your ammo for you.

I hope this effectively kills this conflict and we can solve similar conflicts in this fashion in the future.

[Mightymouser]

I think you're misunderstanding that first thread. It's not about auto-reload at all. It's about speeding up the time it takes to reload by adding a quick-time event.

At any rate; while I think this is an interesting concept; I get the feeling it would be very, very annoying in practice to have to manually 'reload' your magazines to prevent you from loading a half loaded mag in the middle of a fight. Realistic? Yes. Fun in a video game? No. Also, it rather goes against the whole "removing tedious down-time activities" motif they are pushing the game towards...

[Zulthus]

http://www.planetside-universe.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38611

[Shanesan]

I think you're misunderstanding that first thread. It's not about auto-reload at all. It's about speeding up the time it takes to reload by adding a quick-time event.

Ah, yes, thank you. It lowered itself to how reloading works in general later. I will edit to accommodate!

http://www.planetside-universe.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38611
And Zulthus! Thank you for the link. I didn't realize that was there. Hopefully we can get back to these discussions!

Back to your statement, Mightymouser:

I get the feeling it would be very, very annoying in practice to have to manually 'reload' your magazines to prevent you from loading a half loaded mag in the middle of a fight. Realistic? Yes. Fun in a video game? No. Also, it rather goes against the whole "removing tedious down-time activities" motif they are pushing the game towards...
While it would be "annoying" if a user is used to reloading every 3 or 5 bullets they shoot or every kill they make, my proposed method is advantageous in a large-scale, MMOFPS-style, team-dependent system for the following reasons:

Going down for "mag maintenance" during a drawn out battle requires more assistance by your teammates to cover you while you fix your problem, pressing for the idea of better teamwork.
Makes the player use their critical thinking skills, creating a "mini-game" inside their head rather than in the game to determine the best course of action: fix the issue by going into mag maintenance, burn through the last few bullets per clip, or simply switch to secondary and deal with it later.
Makes users plan more effectively before going into combat and coming out of it.


With the simplicity of the idea, the thought channels don't have to overthink and make it frustrating for the user. The user has plenty of options, and this feature opens up doors that many users should become introduced to.

[CidHighwind]

While it would be "annoying" if a user is used to reloading every 3 or 5 bullets they shoot or every kill they make, my proposed method is advantageous in a large-scale, MMOFPS-style, team-dependent system for the following reasons:

Going down for "mag maintenance" during a drawn out battle requires more assistance by your teammates to cover you while you fix your problem, pressing for the idea of better teamwork.
Makes the player use their critical thinking skills, creating a "mini-game" inside their head rather than in the game to determine the best course of action: fix the issue by going into mag maintenance, burn through the last few bullets per clip, or simply switch to secondary and deal with it later.
Makes users plan more effectively before going into combat and coming out of it.


With the simplicity of the idea, the thought channels don't have to overthink and make it frustrating for the user. The user has plenty of options, and this feature opens up doors that many users should become introduced to.

I don't think I have agreed with any post on here more. These are the same reasons i would support this form of reloading - this plan is optimal in my mind. I've never truly understood folks who say that realism is only fun in real life. The point of playing such a massively sized battle sim is to CREATE realism, moreso than any other game has before. This idea only furthers that, while also supporting everything else this game stands for, including teamwork and strategy, and logistics.

I get the feeling that many - not ALL - but many folks who would oppose this type of idea would argue that they don't like the idea of not having a full mag when someone comes around a corner. Its true, it would suck, and I'm sure I would rage at myself and my murderer just as much as the next guy. However, about 3 seconds later I would realize that this isn't necessarily about MY survival, or the individualized kill, intended for ME. Rather, I should be thinking "Excellent, even though I died, I sacrificed so that someone else could push in while that group/enemy was distracted, and if I only shot fifteen bullets, oh well - I helped my Empire - NC4LIFE! *gurrrglgleee*"

This is a team based effort, and in the large scope of things, I feel that folks shouldn't necessarily be focusing on how a half-mag, one where they would need to reload manually, will disallow them a kill. You should be striving for the greater goal, not your K/D ratio. Many might argue that other reloading methods are 'easier,' but I would venture that these are the individuals who would also claim that their own K/D ratio determines the greater battle. To a degree, they would be right. But in the scheme of things, its one small blip on the radar, and team tactics/planning should win out over an auto 'clip filling' fairy that magically arranges your clips for you while you chase down that magmower.

For those versed in sabremetrics, I would compare this to looking at player hitting average (individual play in an MMO) versus .OBP. (team-goal/Objective striving, with individual achievement supplementary.)

The first one shouldn't matter, while the second one matters WAY more.

I for one would like to put my stamp of approval on this 100%

If I may be so bold

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ZxHAZChcYU

Higby!

[Ailos]

I think this is a pretty ingenous solution to a problem that shouldn't exist in the first place. If we didn't have TR's spray and pray playstyle, nobody would be complaining.


But in all reality, I do think that a solution similar to this adds a neat level of complexity and realism. It's yet another mechanism among many that rewards teamwork and thought-out strategy beyond twitch clicking and UI tweaks. And the thing I approve of here above all else, is that this would reward accuracy: the winner of any fight won't be the guy that has the highest-damage or largest-magazine gun, but the guy who lands the most bullets.

[Shotokanguy]

I don't know if any of the ideas presented in these topics will work well, but I have to admit, I never gave much thought to reloading. These topics have actually somewhat piqued my interest in increasing the complexity of actions like reloading.

After all, it is a fairly important procedure that is made incredibly easy in game.

[GTGD]

Or just go with Day of Defeat's system and when you reload, that magazine is kaput. Whatever ammo you had in it is done. 3 magazines means 3 reloads whether you empty the mag or shoot a single bullet.

[CidHighwind]

Or just go with Day of Defeat's system and when you reload, that magazine is kaput. Whatever ammo you had in it is done. 3 magazines means 3 reloads whether you empty the mag or shoot a single bullet.

It would certainly be easier, but why not have the mag available for those willing and wanting to use it to a tactical advantage? I feel as though tossing a partially spent magazine would be an archaic way of going about this.

[Sykes]

Or just go with Day of Defeat's system and when you reload, that magazine is kaput. Whatever ammo you had in it is done. 3 magazines means 3 reloads whether you empty the mag or shoot a single bullet.

But We're 800 years in the future. I believe the point is that mankind probably has a better system than chucking old mags on the ground.

Let's assume their mags are modular, shrink in size when empty, and can attach to other mags and combine their sizes. This would work with Shanie's idea. If a clip gets low, pocket it (because it is now much smaller when it's not full), and stick a new one on there. Once you run out of full mags, you can grab some of the old, but not dry, mags and link them together to create one, final mag that uses every last bullet.

If they have lasers and aliens, I'm pretty sure they would have invented something a little more efficient than the kind of mags we use now. It's also more realistic than how current FPS games handle realoading, where you can fire one bullet, reload, and repeat over a hundred times. That's just silly.

I fully support Shanie's idea.

[Shanesan]

Let's assume their mags are modular, shrink in size when empty, and can attach to other mags and combine their sizes. This would work with Shanie's idea. If a clip gets low, pocket it (because it is now much smaller when it's not full), and stick a new one on there. Once you run out of full mags, you can grab some of the old, but not dry, mags and link them together to create one, final mag that uses every last bullet.I fully support Shanie's idea.

Interesting! So basically, the idea is that once you trade out the mag, that mag becomes a reservoir. Each mag you spend after that, its leftovers "stack" onto that mag until it's maxed out, like the way it works in traditional FPS's.

That is definitely how the weapon modification slot should work.

[IronMole]

Just use the standard FPS's reload system. There's really no reason to stray from the current system FPS's have.

Just because the game is the in the "future" doesn't mean everything has advanced. ;)

[Shogun]

the idea sounds ok, but please please please:

no "fun minigames" for repetitive actions in planetside 2!
while minigames can be fun for a few times, they always suck if you are forced to do them over and over again! anyone who has played masseffect should know what i am talking about. or the camera-hacking in bioshock.

if there has to be an option to rearrange leftover bullets to one mag, make it a buttonpress with a progressbar and nothing complicated. remember, during a battle this will be used by most soldiers every minute.

[Coreldan]

Or just go with Day of Defeat's system and when you reload, that magazine is kaput. Whatever ammo you had in it is done. 3 magazines means 3 reloads whether you empty the mag or shoot a single bullet.

No thanks.

Personally I mainly come from milsim shooters, but surprisingly I'm not 100% supporting the partial reload system. I've played games where the magazine will be pocketed in the condition it was in (so your last reload might just have 2 rounds in the magazine), but I'm not sure if it really added anything to the gameplay.

So, while I'm a realism freak, I would still almost just have the magazines autofill themselves with the ammo you have left if you reload before the magazine is empty.

That said, neither would I mind if there was like "tap R to reload quickly but lose potentially partial magazine in process" and "hold R to do a slower reload, but spare the partial magazine". Anything more complex than that in terms of minigames I would not do.

Also, this:

the idea sounds ok, but please please please:

no "fun minigames" for repetitive actions in planetside 2!
while minigames can be fun for a few times, they always suck if you are forced to do them over and over again! anyone who has played masseffect should know what i am talking about. or the camera-hacking in bioshock.

if there has to be an option to rearrange leftover bullets to one mag, make it a buttonpress with a progressbar and nothing complicated. remember, during a battle this will be used by most soldiers every minute.

[ringring]

No thanks. There are far too many times when someone else can seemingly reload faster than I can .... annoying.

[Forsaken One]

Macros come about because a game forces reflexs. the answer of that is simple. Don't require annoying extra button pushing for anything. if something that is macroable is found out patch the shit out. I don't care if people whine if it takes skill, patch it out.

as for reloading. really? It should work like ps1 and in fact most fps's!! when you reload even ps1 took the ammo and did the whole refill thing for you. Blame that the nanotech or nanobots do it for you if it makes the realism people feel better. Everyone knows I am on the side of teamwork, strategy and tactics, but making more work out of reloading is way too far that even ps1 didn't do it.

And a reloading minigame.... a main part of teamwork and tactics is to cover your friendly while he's reloading, and to try to take advantage/kill your enemy while he's reloading. reloading should take around a set time with no Bs "maybe he can pull off a half time reload" so that when you get to know your enemy and the weapon that enemy is carrying you come to know the set time you can take advantage of his reloading. also its just more shitty button pressing for the sake of pressing more buttons.

[Grognard]

the idea sounds ok, but please please please:

no "fun minigames" for repetitive actions in planetside 2!
while minigames can be fun for a few times, they always suck if you are forced to do them over and over again! anyone who has played masseffect should know what i am talking about. or the camera-hacking in bioshock.

if there has to be an option to rearrange leftover bullets to one mag, make it a buttonpress with a progressbar and nothing complicated. remember, during a battle this will be used by most soldiers every minute.


Are you refering to the resource gathering in mass effect? Lol, mindlessly numbing, and irritating to scan with the mouse over n over n over...

As for the OPs idea, I never really thought of this, but after reading it, I like it.

[BlazingSun]

Why do you want to make reloading so complicated? Can we please just keep it straight forward like it was in the first game?

[Metalsheep]

The reloading system worked like that in Americas Army, where magazines were stored with the leftover amount of bullets inside. But the kill times were 1 bullet and your dead, unless you had alot of Endurance/Stamina built up, then you'd go into "bleed out" mode and had to patch yourself up, or get patched up by a medic. It was tedious and annoying after a while. I prefer Planetside 1's system where you just had a pool of bullets.

Also, if you really want the "Active Reload" minigame, its easy to make unmacroable. Just CHANGE where the "sweet spot" appears every time you reload. I think in GoW it does this anyways, you gotta keep an eye out for the right spot because it moves each time you reload, and the speed of the reload is different for each weapon. BAM. Cant macro it, because you cant predict it. But i don't feel Active Reload belongs in Planetside anyways. A mod that lets you reload is fine, but i don't need a little mini-game to worry about while im trying to have a firefight.

Though i could see this working with weapons that maybe have one shot to fire, or vehicle reloads. Like with an Artillery piece, the loader needs SOME thing to do other than keep hitting R...

[Vancha]

If this isn't an "attachment", but rather applied to all weapons, this seems like it'd be almost indistinguishable from an ammo pool until you got through your 5 magazines, and then you'd just have to do a really long reload to get another full clip. You wouldn't be "losing" any bullets like in DoD's system, you'd just have to spend way more time reloading?

Apparently there are people who think it's a complicated system, but personally I think I'd just find it rather inconvenient. I can't imagine I'd look back on it and go "damn, Planetside 2 sure had an amazing reload system. I wish more games did that."

As in the other thread, I think giving people a choice would be best. Either allow people to choose between magazines or an ammo pool for their weapon and then have certain ammo types/attachments act differently depending on which is being used, or have an attachment that gives you a magazine system and a reduced reload time with it.

[Rbstr]

I don't mind the DoD-style system where leftover bullets are thrown away.
I just don't want reloading to become something more involved than simple counting.

[Lord Cosine]

I couldn't stand the GoW reload bar. I never want to see that again in any game. Please allow it to fade from existence forever, Thanks.

[Vancha]

I couldn't stand the GoW reload bar. I never want to see that again in any game. Please allow it to fade from existence forever, Thanks.
It's a good thing this thread isn't about that then.

[Neksar]

I like the idea of a reloading system that makes it difficult to macro, but this is overly complicated, IMO. Of course, I also hate the idea of someone dropping an ammo crate Battlefield 3 style.

The problem with trying to fight macro'd reloading is that a clip should and does have a fixed amount of ammo in it. By making drawn-out battles have clips with unpredictable amounts of ammo, you make macro'd reloads ineffective, but you also introduce a level of complexity that just makes me want to smack a mofo. Besides, TR would be at an obvious disadvantage with this system, since their style of combat is based around putting out as many rounds as possible.

While I'm all for making reloading more tactical, the pros here don't outweigh the cons. I'd just make reloading take a bit longer to promote teamwork, covering fire, or even use of sidearms. That way, rapid reloads aren't even a huge issue, as you'll need squadmates to cover you during a reload.