The problem with "Implausible Reload"

[LZachariah]

In most FPS games over the past few years, reload mechanics are oddly unrealistic. My brothers and I have taken to calling this phenomenon "Implausible Reload," and I shall illustrate it easily:

If you have a 30-round magazine, and you fire one shot, then reload, you have just thrown away 29 bullets. Only weapons like shotguns reload by slotting individual rounds into the chamber. However, in most games, "reloading" just takes ammunition out of your total ammo and replenishes your weapon back to full. I am sometimes confused at how games overlook this fundamentally simple fact. Battlefield 2142, for instance, had a plausible reload system; your magazines contained ammunition, and if you reloaded too early, you necessarily threw away whatever bullets were left in your discarded magazine.

To me, Implausible Reload makes so little sense, and certainly nobody thinks that this is actually how reloading works. So, my question to everyone is, what is your preference? (and why do you hold that preference?)

1. The more realistic system of "each magazine contains a certain number of rounds."

2. The more convenient system of "the act of reloading magically replenishes your gun's ammunition back to full."


~Zachariah

[Rbstr]

Do we need like, 4 threads on the front page alone, about reloading?

[Cosmical]

A valid point and something i dont think ive ever really thought about in much detail.

I think youre going to have to Bite the Bullet on this one though (PUN HILARIOUSLY INTENDED) this is a gaming mechanic that wont change anytime soon. Ive played FPS's for decades now, and even i have moments of panic and fraustration. Accidentally throwing me last 30 bullets to the ground in the persuit of realism is something im not prepared to deal with because i got excited. haha

[Vancha]

Did Hamma just put out the order to make threads about things we've just had threads about?

[Shanesan]

In most FPS games over the past few years, reload mechanics are oddly unrealistic. My brothers and I have taken to calling this phenomenon "Implausible Reload," and I shall illustrate it easily:

If you have a 30-round magazine, and you fire one shot, then reload, you have just thrown away 29 bullets. Only weapons like shotguns reload by slotting individual rounds into the chamber. However, in most games, "reloading" just takes ammunition out of your total ammo and replenishes your weapon back to full. I am sometimes confused at how games overlook this fundamentally simple fact. Battlefield 2142, for instance, had a plausible reload system; your magazines contained ammunition, and if you reloaded too early, you necessarily threw away whatever bullets were left in your discarded magazine.

To me, Implausible Reload makes so little sense, and certainly nobody thinks that this is actually how reloading works. So, my question to everyone is, what is your preference? (and why do you hold that preference?)

1. The more realistic system of "each magazine contains a certain number of rounds."

2. The more convenient system of "the act of reloading magically replenishes your gun's ammunition back to full."


~Zachariah

This was brought up on page one, post 8 here (http://www.planetside-universe.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38890), as well as much deeper in this thread as well (http://www.planetside-universe.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38881).

To answer the question, each magazine should house a certain number of rounds, and reloading by tossing the mag is a lazy coders way out of a "where do I put this partially spent mag" dilemma.

Pocket the clip and come back to it later when you need it .

[BlazingSun]

No.

I started typing out a long reply, but then couldn't be bothered as I don't think that the Devs will change reloading anyway.

Short version: Current reloading system is unrealistic? ... So what? The proposed ideas don't add anything to the game.

[Quovatis]

I guess if you really want to be realistic, the "thrown away" mags go into a separate pool. You can then put them back in the main pool if you wait for a while (i.e. you're taking the rounds out of some mags and filling the rest up).

I don't really mind the mechanic of most current games. Not realistic, but less frustrating.

[Shade Millith]

BF1942 and BF:V (and I think BF2 also), had a magazine count instead of bullet count.

Reloading was something you did when you needed to, not on a whim.

I liked it like that.

[DayOne]

It would take a while for some people to get used too (those with the 3-bullets-down-must-reload reflex, me included) but I think it is an all together better system. It would mean more team work as you can supply each other with mags.

Also you could get customisation options where you get another clip of ammo to use, as in an actual clip, not just 30 more magic bullets of replenishing.

[EASyEightyEight]

As realistic as tracking rounds per magazine might be, most people aren't used to or very accepting of the idea, and I wouldn't count on SOE asking for a leap of faith with this iteration of Planetside.

A long, long time ago, I played a mod for Half-Life called Firearms, and it was a blast. Along side having weapon mods and tracked magazines, getting shot in various locations degraded character performance. Reloading became slower and aim less accurate with shots to the arms, movement slower to the leg, with chances to break the leg, slowing me down, and the model actually limped. I might have both legs broken, forcing me into prone until I spent time applying two splints. Even too far a fall would break a leg(s.)

Speaking of bandages, there was also a bleed mechanic. Taking a shot or two in the right areas and I'd bleed out if I didn't take a moment to tend to them.

As cool as I think all these features would be in Planetside, it's just not something most players are used to, or willing to accept. A lot of people just want to shoot other people, without worrying about all the little things, even if all the little things are a (virtual) medics wet dream to worry about.

As an aside, Firearms also sported perks, such as increased reload speeds, faster appliance of medical supplies, etc, and one could even apply armor to themselves at the cost of speed. It was a game ahead of it's time in my opinion. It was just over shadowed by Counter-Strike.

[Raka Maru]

Reloading just puts you half empty clip into your pack. It magically gets filled with your favorite ammo stash and is full the next time you use it unless your stash is completely empty.

I'm ok with this rather than stop, fill clips, then go back to shooting.

[Panserbjorne]

Reloading just puts you half empty clip into your pack. It magically gets filled with your favorite ammo stash and is full the next time you use it unless your stash is completely empty.

I'm ok with this rather than stop, fill clips, then go back to shooting.

Actually, that isn't a bad thought, to make it more plausible. Perhaps there is a slot on the armor for the secondary clip- once the clips are switched, the unused clip is automatically, and mechanically, fed bullets from your pack. Considering the technology of PS and PS2, it wouldn't be that preposterous to think a system like that is in place.

That's just to make it seem more "Realistic"- otherwise, I have to say I like the "Implausible Reload" as a gameplay choice.

[VioletZero]

I don't see how a realistic reloading system is a good game mechanic.

[sylphaen]

I'd bet my house that will not make it in.

It was discussed in the past and the concensus was that such a system would end up slowing down the game.

As such, while it would be more realistic, it would not add more fun to the intended gameplay (i.e. faster gameplay than PS1 where no realistic reload was being used).

PS2 is not intended to be a simulator but a fun game instead.

[Death2All]

IT HAS TO BE REALISTIC OR ELSE IT'S NOT FUN :doh:

[Elude]

Did Hamma just put out the order to make threads about things we've just had threads about?

How are they the same threads?

One was about auto reloading
One was about active reloading
One was about Implausible reloading

Three completely different things!

[sylphaen]

Can't wait until the "No-reload" thread is started.
:rofl:

[CutterJohn]

My preference is ammo pools, but I can work with either style.

If there are magazines vehicles should be exempted.

[Sirisian]

How are they the same threads?
Here (http://www.planetside-universe.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38611). This has been discussed at length in other threads with solutions to problems given that are simple and intuitive.

[Marth Koopa]

Neo Tokyo, an old and probably still dead Source(HL2) Mod, was one of my favorite shooters of all time and it featured realistic reloading. Reloading would completely dump your current magazine for a fresh one. I thought it was really cool because it added to the whole tactical depth of the game. Ammo was a precious resource

[Sirisian]

Ammo was a precious resource
Good thread on that idea (http://www.planetside-universe.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37230). Also goes into magazines. I do like that feeling where you know how many magazines you have left so you have to use them wisely. (That and resupplying becomes necessary).

[Rabb]

Nanite ammo generator. It has an energy charge for a finite amount of ammo and reloads any clip placed in it. So you have 2 clips one in use one in the nanite ammo gen.

[Mastachief]

I understand you argument and its valid but i feel that for planetside this realism can be over looked because to change to your proposal would remove fun from the game especially with the lack of freeform inventories.

[ringring]

It adds a dice-roll to who dies... I'd vote no.

It seems to me that we're getting bored with the information release schedule from SOE and are starting to invent our own ways to mess the game up. That's the DEVS job. :D

[Justaman]

Here's an answer:

All ammo is refilled like a super soaker. Need moar ammo? Just add nanite!


I don't think we should shelve the idea of a more realistic approach. I believe we can make anything enjoyable, so long as its implemented properly. And since people dislike all the common and real life ways to make it happen, lets make a believable alternative.

I say we give it a try in beta. Namely, having early reloaded clips, simply be placed back into your pocket with w/e ammo is left in it. Have an extra button that lets you sort the mags wile you move. Possibly a passive function that does this for you when you aren't in direct combat.

It could even be simplified by saying that the magazines where designed around quick sorting:

Slap the open ends together, press the special eject button on one of them, and it pushes out as much ammo will fit into the other mag.
One very quick motion, and then back onto the pockets. Or drop the empty and grab the next one.

[XPquant]

+10 To EasyE for the firearms reference. In Firearms if you reloaded a half mag you didn't discard it, you kept it and could put it back in to use that half mag. You could also take some time and hit the merge magazine button to combine your partially spent mags.

Having magic mags definitely is not conducive to tactical warfare. Fire control and ammunition management are important skills.

[Boogster]

I can't tell you how little this topic interests me. If they change reload, they're stupid. End of.

[Coreldan]

I don't see how a realistic reloading system is a good game mechanic.

Pretty much this. And I'm a milsim/realism freak by my background, but I've yet to see a game where this was a good or fun mechanic never the less.

Also, reloading doesnt necessarily mean you throw away the magazine. At the very least spare the magazine and put it at the "end of the queue", when you've used all your fresh magazines at least once, it starts cycling through the partial magazines.

But still, I rather have the magic refill for the sake of gameplay.

[VioletZero]

Pretty much this. And I'm a milsim/realism freak by my background, but I've yet to see a game where this was a good or fun mechanic never the less.

Also, reloading doesnt necessarily mean you throw away the magazine. At the very least spare the magazine and put it at the "end of the queue", when you've used all your fresh magazines at least once, it starts cycling through the partial magazines.

But still, I rather have the magic refill for the sake of gameplay.
Okay, let me amend that.

In a game where there's a very short time to kill(Like Operation Flashpoint), a realistic reloading system can be a good way to layer on more tension.

But in a game with a moderate-short time to kill, like Planetside 2 will be, it will be nothing but a hassle.

The difference is that in a game with a short time to kill, a realistic reload system poses questions like "Will this ammo be enough to get me by? Will I need the extra ammo later?" That kind of thing.

With longer time to kill, it is more like "Well, crap. This much ammo isn't enough to kill someone. Guess that's ammo down the drain."

[Oty]

My brother, not that young medstudent, asked me (since I was in the army) how reloading really worked, it the magasines auto filled up with your bullets, because he plays modern FPS. I laughed so hard :D

well, my oppinion is tahat the CoD system suck because people will almost always have full clips.
sometimes on the battlefield amazing moments happen when you were supposed to be dead but the enemy weapon goes klick* insted of BAM* (not that I've been in combat, but happened in some BF games and sometimes on practise with loose ammo in army)
that i something that I think the reload function adds to the gameplay experience.

therefore i thought of a solution:
Maybe if one had 2 buttons for reload. one for fast reload where you just dump you mag on the ground, and one for a sligthly slower reload but you keep the mag and its specific content, then the game automatically reloads with the mag with highest bulletcontent?

and if one prefer the one alternative more than the other one can just simply set preference for R button and the less prefered on an more distant button.

[Raka Maru]

This type of busybody work is for the sims where they have to shower, crap, and flush...

Let my reload button fill my mag again completely. Let the bullets not be wasted. Let some lore explain how this happens. :)

[Sirisian]

This type of busybody work is for the sims where they have to shower, crap, and flush...
I'd argue that ammo pools are very COD. If we want to distinguish ourselves from COD we should really switch to the magazine system. :lol:

Oh wait that argument doesn't work if it changes something the traditionalists liked in PS1. ;)

On a more serious note I liked America's Army in that respect. You knew how much ammo you had by how many magazines you had left which was nice because simply quick reloading after firing a few shots was a huge waste of ammo. Then again I support the rotary magazine system (This type of busybody work is for the sims where they have to shower, crap, and flush... I'd argue that ammo pools are very COD. If we want to distinguish ourselves from COD we should really switch to the magazine system. :lol: Oh wait that argument doesn't work if it changes something the traditionalists liked in PS1. ;)). It tends to be a bit too milsim as mentioned before though especially with people that are used to reloading often.

However, I've always been for systems of limited ammo where players can throw magazines to one another and must switch to pistol if they don't manage their magazines during hectic firefights. I think it makes the game feel a bit more immersive with a squad and opens up more choices. And you all know how I feel about choices (aka skill through complexity).

(In before, but "doesn't BF use magazines?").

[TheBladeRoden]

Ammo pool is a literal bucket of bullets you can dip your magazine into to top it off.

[Justaman]

Ammo pool is a literal bucket of bullets you can dip your magazine into to top it off.

That sounds more like it.

You only have (or even need) the ammo clip that exists in the gun. When you want to add ammo/reload, just take it out, shove the open end of the clip into your ammo REFILLERATOR ®™ (w/e you wanna call it), and bang! Full mag. Now slide that puppy back into your gun.

[Coreldan]

I'd argue that ammo pools are very COD. If we want to distinguish ourselves from COD we should really switch to the magazine system. :lol:

Oh wait that argument doesn't work if it changes something the traditionalists liked in PS1. ;)

On a more serious note I liked America's Army in that respect. You knew how much ammo you had by how many magazines you had left which was nice because simply quick reloading after firing a few shots was a huge waste of ammo. Then again I support the rotary magazine system ( I'd argue that ammo pools are very COD. If we want to distinguish ourselves from COD we should really switch to the magazine system. :lol: Oh wait that argument doesn't work if it changes something the traditionalists liked in PS1. ;)). It tends to be a bit too milsim as mentioned before though especially with people that are used to reloading often.

However, I've always been for systems of limited ammo where players can throw magazines to one another and must switch to pistol if they don't manage their magazines during hectic firefights. I think it makes the game feel a bit more immersive with a squad and opens up more choices. And you all know how I feel about choices (aka skill through complexity).

(In before, but "doesn't BF use magazines?").

Like it was brought out before, it's still good to remember that in America's Army you can kill someone as long as you still have one shot in the magazine. In PS2 we're looking at a much higher TTK, which makes the idea of not having a full magazine quite nasty.

[Raka Maru]

Or we can have squads behind rocks that just reload mags. Then a runner with a pack getting them to the troops on the front as long as a sniper don't get him. We can order coffee shots too when a menu pops up requesting what ammo type we need.

[Sirisian]

Like it was brought out before, it's still good to remember that in America's Army you can kill someone as long as you still have one shot in the magazine. In PS2 we're looking at a much higher TTK, which makes the idea of not having a full magazine quite nasty.
You mean for a headshot? The game had a health bar. Depending on arm/leg/chest and such it was usually over 3 rounds for a successful kill. There was a reason medics were so useful. You usually didn't die in the game after getting shot once or twice (especially if you were shot in the arm or legs).
Or we can have squads behind rocks that just reload mags. Then a runner with a pack getting them to the troops on the front as long as a sniper don't get him. We can order coffee shots too when a menu pops up requesting what ammo type we need.
On a more serious sidenote the suggestion of having the engineer with a nanite ammo deployable was brought up a few times. It's more than just bean counting. :lol:

[Raka Maru]

VNA = Need Ammo!
VNC = Need Coffee!

:D

Ok, would like to see engie deployed ammo dispensers too. :)