Cloakers and there weapons?

[Magpie]

Quick question, we seen pictures with cloakers and some form of rifles.

First off is that overpowered?

Seocond I really love the design of the NC cloaker and all their weapons. Would it be overpowered if a NC Cloaker has their hands on a sweeper?

Going by ps1 I would say 50/50

[DayOne]

Firstly: their*

Secondly: Cloakers getting only pistols is BS to me. They're lightly armoured, not made of spaghetti! At least give them Sub machine guns!

EDIT: Yes, as mentioned below they would have to uncloak first, but at least give them something that can kill!

[MgFalcon]

Cloakers can use a Sniper Rifle, but as I recall they'll have to uncloak to use it. Seems good to me, but then again I'll probably be playing that role a bit more than I like! :)

[Mauser101]

As far as we know if you want full cloak (no packets sent to other clients, no constrat adjusting workaround) you get pistols and knives and if you want partial cloak your weapons access is only known to also include the cloaker specific sniper rifle...which we're all assuming is gimped like the Heavy Scout Rifle from PS1 (lower power zoom, less damage per hit).

We haven't seen anything leading us to believe either cloaker will get access to anything more powerful as far as ranged weapons go.

edit: My hope is that you have to uncloak to fire the sniper rifle, not auto-uncloak upon firing.

[Rarntogo]

Without knowing the effectiveness of the sniper rifle, it would be hard to say if they are overpowered or not just yet. Cloakers were somewhat under utilized in PS1 imo and giving them a sniping capabilities makes them a force. How they work in the balance is something that will take some work, no doubt. If something is overpowered, the majority will use it and the rest will whine about it. ;)

[ThGlump]

As far as we know if you want full cloak (no packets sent to other clients, no constrat adjusting workaround) you get pistols and knives and if you want partial cloak your weapons access is only known to also include the cloaker specific sniper rifle...which we're all assuming is gimped like the Heavy Scout Rifle from PS1 (lower power zoom, less damage per hit).

I see this one mentioned by many ppl, but there cant be option that infiltrator dont sent packets to others. Client still need to know where he is even with full cloak - for collision detection (so you dont run through them) and hit detection (so you dont shoot through them).

For cloak + sniper. That cloak wont be ideal, very noticable on shorter distance, and wont be permanent (was mentioned its only for easier change of your location than for long invisibility).

[DayOne]

I see this one mentioned by many ppl, but there cant be option that infiltrator dont sent packets to others. Client still need to know where he is even with full cloak - for collision detection (so you dont run through them) and hit detection (so you dont shoot through them).

For cloak + sniper. That cloak wont be ideal, very noticable on shorter distance, and wont be permanent (was mentioned its only for easier change of your location than for long invisibility).

No packets sent to enemies. The server still know where you are, if a bullet or other person hits you then they will receive the packet saying so. It's so you cant use anything client side that would allow you to detect a cloaker.

[ThGlump]

Trying to run through someone with cloak would result in huge rubber banding, if your client move because he dont know something is there and then is send back by server. That would feel terrible.

[DayOne]

Trying to run through someone with cloak would result in huge rubber banding, if your client move because he dont know something is there and then is send back by server. That would feel terrible.

Worse than being killed when fully cloaked because some guy has a modded client?

[Warborn]

Cloakers were somewhat under utilized in PS1 imo and giving them a sniping capabilities makes them a force.

All it does is make the people who want to snipe pick that class this time. They won't really be cloakers per se as they won't be sneaking around doing stuff, and for all intents and purposes they may as well be guys in agile. Giving them sniper rifles isn't a serious way to address the issue of cloaker gameplay in PS1 being lackluster, and I imagine there's more we have to see about cloakers in PS2 and the changes in store for them.

[ThGlump]

Worse than being killed when fully cloaked because some guy has a modded client?

For everyone else than a cloaker yes (even for them if 2 cloakers colide).

As i understand seeing cloaker in ps1 was easy since they was always shown but with invisible texture. If you changed texture you could see them.
If they arent drawn at all, you could not modify game as easily. You would need game code modification to allow drawing cloakers and that wont be a joke.
And you could still change texture for partial cloak to see cloak/snipers over long distance. I hope they fix that.

[Mauser101]

Trying to run through someone with cloak would result in huge rubber banding, if your client move because he dont know something is there and then is send back by server. That would feel terrible.

Then there's the question of whether Darklight will be in the game. !/send packet if darklight = no. send packet if darklight = yes. I'd see even more issues. Personally I trust the devs to be up to the challenge of making it work.

Unfortunately I bring certain expectations from playing PS1 for so long, and one of them is to have a counter to cloakers.

[Coreldan]

Packets must be sent anyways, as mentioned. How else can you ever kill the cloaker? :D

EDIT: Well I guess there are ways, but they may not really be ideal with gameplay in mind.

[Mightymouser]

Where'd this idea that packet's won't be sent come from? Is this derived from something someone at SOE said? Or just pulled from thin air?

[DayOne]

Where'd this idea that packet's won't be sent come from? Is this derived from something someone at SOE said? Or just pulled from thin air?

It was in the PC Gamer article. It's because in PS1 you could change your settings so you could see cloakers when you weren't supposed to.

[Canaris]

There will be a variety of different cloaker styles, the Infiltrator with the sniper Rifle will be sacrificing part of his cloak ability to in order to tote said big gun, Then there will be the proper invisibles who have to use small weapons in order keep a proper cloaking effect.

Could cloakers use SMGs or Shotguns, sure I suppose but as long as they sacrifice something for it like the Sniper versions.
You have to however strike a balance between them and other classes. Maybe shotguns or certain types of SMGs won't be practical for them to use.

[Geist]

There will be a variety of different cloaker styles, the Infiltrator with the sniper Rifle will be sacrificing part of his cloak ability to in order to tote said big gun, Then there will be the proper invisibles who have to use small weapons in order keep a proper cloaking effect.

Could cloakers use SMGs or Shotguns, sure I suppose but as long as they sacrifice something for it like the Sniper versions.
You have to however strike a balance between them and other classes. Maybe shotguns or certain types of SMGs won't be practical for them to use.

I never thought for one second they wouldn't make it so if you carry anything over a pistol/knife, you get a diminished cloaking ability. There's precedent in PS1(ie cloakers get full cloak, but can only use pistol slot equipment), and anything more than that is OP.

From a tactical point of view, the greatest defense anyone can possible have is not a shield or a ton of heavy armor, but not being seen at all. Can't shoot what you can't see. Thus, give a cloaker anything that can kill even semi-quickly, and give them full camo, and you just created something extremely OP.

[Lonehunter]

Snipers will just have active camouflage, the "Predator Effect", or from the Elites in Halo. Cloakers will have actual invisibility through no pixels even showing up if not in the proper range

and I don't think Infiltrators count as light armor. There's a Light Assault class for that kind of armor, regenerative shields and all. In PS1 I don't recall any armor on the cloaker suit, just health.

So I can see the use of SMGs and Sniping if there is no armor, because invisibility should give you an edge. If it doesn't go play Light Assault

[Traak]

Cloakers can use a sniper rifle, but as I recall they'll have to uncloak to use it.

Proof that they have to uncloak to use it?

[Hamma]

Don't remember where it was said but it was. Also snipers cloaking is NOT as effective as infiltrators you will be able to see them more.

[Aurmanite]

On the AGN Higby said that sniping cloakers will never be fully invisible, that they would not be able to fire while cloaked.

He also said proper cloakers will be totally invisible and not even send packets to people who shouldn't be seeing them. This was in a different publication...that you must purchase.

[LostSoul]

In PCGamer they were talking about gamma exploids IIRC. Nothing on packages not being sent to server since that would make no sense what so ever.

[Duddy]

In PCGamer they were talking about gamma exploids IIRC. Nothing on packages not being sent to server since that would make no sense what so ever.

Well packets not being sent to the server would make no sense, but the server opting to not send packets to you makes perfect sense.

Essentially the server decides what you can or can't see, and sends you what you can and conversely does not send what it thinks you should not.

The idea being, if the cloaker doesn't physically exist for you until you should be able to see him, then you can't manipulate the client until to "see" them because they're not there, yet :P

I know HoN (Heroes of Newerth) uses this system, not sure about the other MOBA games but it works.

[Geist]

Don't remember where it was said but it was. Also snipers cloaking is NOT as effective as infiltrators you will be able to see them more.

Also pretty sure they said you uncloak after you fired, requiring a sniper to move after every few shots.

[Aurmanite]

In PCGamer they were talking about gamma exploids IIRC. Nothing on packages not being sent to server since that would make no sense what so ever.

Read it again my friend.

[Magpie]

Well packets not being sent to the server would make no sense, but the server opting to not send packets to you makes perfect sense.

Essentially the server decides what you can or can't see, and sends you what you can and conversely does not send what it thinks you should not.

The idea being, if the cloaker doesn't physically exist for you until you should be able to see him, then you can't manipulate the client until to "see" them because they're not there, yet :P

I know HoN (Heroes of Newerth) uses this system, not sure about the other MOBA games but it works.

So what your saying is the server makes a cloaker a ghost, so no one can track you unless there aloud to via maybe dark light or fast movement, so people cant gamma cheat coz they can't cheat whats not there as the servers making them a ghost, lol it's very confusing but I think I get the ideal

[Magpie]

Double post

[Shogun]

it was said in the new pc gamer article(physical magazine edition). magpie finally managed to figure something out ;-) and i guess that´s what they mean.

in the article it is said also, that cloaking snipers will never be totally invisible and will have to uncloak to fire, like a klingon bird of prey! so i guess they worked something out to balance this.

[Magpie]

it was said in the new pc gamer article. magpie finally managed to figure something out ;-) and i guess that´s what they mean.

in the article it is said also, that cloaking snipers will never be totally invisible and will have to uncloak to fire, like a klingon bird of prey! so i guess they worked something out to balance this.

I can't wait to give you some friendy fire ;)

[Shogun]

lol we will be forced to play on the same server ;-)
hope we get a chance to be in the beta to test the grief system ;)

[Magpie]

lol we will be forced to play on the same server ;-)
hope we get a chance to be in the beta to test the grief system ;)

I'll look forward to that I might hop on tr/vs and you will not even know I'm there ;)

[Duddy]

So what your saying is the server makes a cloaker a ghost, so no one can track you unless there aloud to via maybe dark light or fast movement, so people cant gamma cheat coz they can't cheat whats not there as the servers making them a ghost, lol it's very confusing but I think I get the ideal

To use another analogy (a very crude one mind you);

You don't want your kids to open their b'day/xmas gift early right?

The best way to prevent that is to not let them know the present exists until you give it to them.

Hope that clarifies further!

[ThGlump]

To use another analogy (a very crude one mind you);

You don't want your kids to open their b'day/xmas gift early right?

The best way to prevent that is to not let them know the present exists until you give it to them.

Hope that clarifies further!

But if you leave them in the middle of the room they could trip over them if they dont know it exist.

What happens when you collide with enemy cloaker?

You run through them. That sounds like bad idea, cloakers clipping through enemy like they arent there, dont have to wory where they stand to not reveal themselves.
You run through them and then send back by server when he finally tells your client there is cloaker. This will result in serious rubberbanding.


Both scenarios are pretty bad. They need to send you packets that there is some obstacle in the way.
Or simply send you packets about cloaker, but dont draw him. You would have to crack the code to make them drawn, not simply change gama/texture like in ps1 when they was always drawn.

[Duddy]

But if you leave them in the middle of the room they could trip over them if they dont know it exist.

What happens when you collide with enemy cloaker?

You run through them. That sounds like bad idea, cloakers clipping through enemy like they arent there, dont have to wory where they stand to not reveal themselves.
You run through them and then send back by server when he finally tells your client there is cloaker. This will result in serious rubberbanding.


Both scenarios are pretty bad. They need to send you packets that there is some obstacle in the way.
Or simply send you packets about cloaker, but dont draw him. You would have to crack the code to make them drawn, not simply change gama/texture like in ps1 when they was always drawn.

You have a point, I think it works in HoN because when ever you're moving you're essentially following a "path" once you've clicked to move somewhere and the server knows where you're going so you do bump into invisible players. I must admit that I don't know the specifics.

The not drawing method would certainly work too, but this is still open to potential abuse. If it exists in memory (i.e. you're client knows about it) then it can potentially be abused. I'd think we'd have bigger problems at that point however.

I'd be interested to hear how they chose to overcome this.

[Shogun]

You have a point, I think it works in HoN because when ever you're moving you're essentially following a "path" once you've clicked to move somewhere and the server knows where you're going so you do bump into invisible players. I must admit that I don't know the specifics.

The not drawing method would certainly work too, but this is still open to potential abuse. If it exists in memory (i.e. you're client knows about it) then it can potentially be abused. I'd think we'd have bigger problems at that point however.

I'd be interested to hear how they chose to overcome this.

i don´t know anything about gamemechanics, but i would think the server gives information about the cloakers position but the client doesn´t use this information on the screen until the cloaker gets visible by moving,shooting or being hit. sure if the information is there it could be hacked and abused with a cheaterprogram, but at least you could not bypass cloakers just by turning your monitors contrast to stupid levels. you can ban people for using cheatsoftware, but you cannot ban them for adjusting screenstats.

[Fenrys]

I'm curious about how clipping and no-packet cloakers will work too, but I'm confident the devs will figure it out.

Maybe the first person to run into a cloaker knocks them out of the way with a staggering animation, and then they start sending packets for a second because they've moved.

[Raka Maru]

Cloaker = C
Regular = X

X can't see C
C can see X
Server knows where X and C are at any time
Server never tells X where C is
X shoots or runs into the spot where C is
Server tells X where C is
Now X knows where C is

[Fenrys]

Cloaker = C
Regular = X

[1] X can't see C
[2] C can see X
[3] Server knows where X and C are at any time
[4] Server never tells X where C is
[5] X shoots or runs into the spot where C is
[6] Server tells X where C is
[7] Now X knows where C is

That works for hit detection, but I'm not sure about making collisions something other than sloppy.

Between 5 and 6 there exists ~200ms of delay where X runs through the position occupied by C. How do you deal with or prevent 2 clients thinking they occupy the same coordinates?

[Justaman]

That works for hit detection, but I'm not sure about making collisions something other than sloppy.

Between 5 and 6 there exists ~200ms of delay where X runs through the position occupied by C. How do you deal with or prevent 2 clients thinking they occupy the same coordinates?

This is something very intricate to the client and server mechanics that would require a dev response to truthfully clarify.

Sure, we could come up with radical ideas on how or what will happen, but we have no way of proving anything yet.

I would assume, that once your very close to a cloaker, such as right before touching (or 200ms worth of movement distance, give or take a clipping allowance (or possibly a lot more room depending on how visible cloakers are at certain distances)) the cloaker would be slightly more visible than his previous "not at all". Which is enough to merit packets and prevent "I'm inside you bro *wink*".

Or maybe they both just knock their heads together, and grunt, as they both fall to the floor. With X in his power armor going, WTF did I hit? And C on his back, holding his hands over his mouth, trying not to cry about his big boo-boo. (X and C get repelled from each other based on movement vectors and rapid deceleration with a possible *fall over* animation)

And then X stands up and replaces all the air that C might have been trying to breath, with BULLETS!

[Shogun]

this is a thing, no dev will give any detailed information about.
because it hits the hackerprotection field, and the less info is known about anticheating, the better!
the problem we see here is too obvious for the devs to not having worked it out. (if it really is any kind of problem at all)

the pcgamer info was just to clarify, that cloaker-detection will not be a matter of screenadjustment anymore and that they have developed a whole new cloak mechanic.

[Duddy]

I'm sure we'll find out in due course, and I trust that suitable solution is being used.

But hey, couldn't be worse than the original, right?