MagRider Main Gun Position [Archive]

Grognard

2012-02-25, 02:57 PM

I'll get right into it... I dont really have a problem with the driver gunning, yet... or it being fixed in a frontal firing arc since the whole tank can strafe. However, I do have a problem with the elevation of the main gun sitting so low, and so far forward, on the chassis.

From the standpoint of immersion, and playability - who would design such an impractical gun location for a vehicle that needs to; 1 Aquire targets in defilade, 2. Fire over terrain like big stones, fallen trees..., 3. Chassis-rock over rough surfaces, 4. Turn near verticle structures, etc. etc... What happens to that thing at the first ditch? Strafing near trees? Yeees... its a game, but cmon... most other things in this game at least seem to follow a futuristic version of form follows function...

If you look at the pictures, it just does not appear to "hover" high enough for this not to be a concern. The old Mag's forward arc gun was snub-nosed, the main gun is a long barrel rail-gun (or somesuch). It just does not seem to fit into a sensible application of what it is meant for, even as a hover-tank. Certainly, the mainstay defensive measure of tanks, "hull down aspect", will seemingly be absent by virtue of the firing geometry of the gun placement. I wonder if this is by design...

The gun just sits too low, and too far forward...

WaryWizard

2012-02-25, 03:01 PM

yeah it looks like it would hit something if it were to come across a hill or small rock. It should be higher up

sylphaen

2012-02-25, 03:05 PM

I share your concerns, Grog. Hopefully, devs changed their mind about the Magrider's main gun.

Neurotoxin

2012-02-25, 03:36 PM

I like that it'll be a big anti-infantry gun instead of the small one in PS1. The Magrider may also float higher off the ground than in PS, which helps resolve many of the clearance issues for a low-mounted turret. I feel like it was also done for balance, that the Magrider will have a low and straight shot, while the other two tanks fire from higher up because of the arc.

Personally, I'd just replace the front end with some sorta energy ramming shield, that can reduce damage from forward impact and mines while adding more mowing power to the Magrider. Not for every situation, but I'd definitely use it to lead VS armor columns into battle, and for courtyard cleanup.

Grognard

2012-02-25, 03:53 PM

The Magrider may also float higher off the ground than in PS, which helps resolve many of the clearance issues for a low-mounted turret. I feel like it was also done for balance, that the Magrider will have a low and straight shot, while the other two tanks fire from higher up because of the arc.

I was thinking same thing, since now... the whole tank is the "turret". Maybe they want "hull-down" aspect to be lost on this tank, since it can be done by strafing around trees etc. so... "hull-side" aspect now, I guess...

Personally, I'd just replace the front end with some sorta energy ramming shield, that can reduce damage from forward impact and mines while adding more mowing power to the Magrider. Not for every situation, but I'd definitely use it to lead VS armor columns into battle, and for courtyard cleanup.

I would, at least, prefer a more snub-nosed rail gun, or this thing will just be a futuristic weed-whacker. As far as mines... good point, I'd hate to be the engineer trying to figure out a way to protect the Mag gun from mines, since PS2 is going to have anti-mine unlocks. :eek:

AncientVanu

2012-02-25, 04:06 PM

The Magrider is a low profile tank. Look at this image:
http://www.planetside-universe.com/media/main/psnext/twitter/20120109_4f0b8e89c9cd3.jpg?hotlink=true

It is pretty much on par with the other two tanks even though it is several feet above ground. If it was laying on the ground it would have had a lot lower profile.
Think of it as sort of a German tank destroyer of the WW2. Like and advanced VS equivalent of the Stug :p Much like it it is a low profile vehicle with fixed gun (gun is not in a turret) with limited aiming capabilities.

I'm pretty sure it has been possible to design it differently, with the main gun in a turret and still keep a relatively low profile and hovering capabilities, but I guess it is in its current form for the sake of balance.

The way I see it it will be at a disadvantage on a rough terrain when facing the other tanks because of the really, really low positioned gun. How are the devs going to compensate for that, with better armor, rate of fire, or supreme maneuverability remains to be seen. I'm a bit pessimistic though cause unlike the WW2 Stug it won't be used mainly to ambush tanks so its cons eventually might come out to be more than its pros.

Bags

2012-02-25, 04:15 PM

You can go over the water. There's your trade off.

Whalenator

2012-02-25, 04:21 PM

Just more targets for speedy, high DPS Vanguards.

Vash02

2012-02-25, 04:23 PM

You can go over the water. There's your trade off.

Only an advantage on Cyssor.

ringring

2012-02-25, 04:32 PM

Think you have a problem ....

with the vannie the main and secondary guns are in the turret with no seperate turret for the secondary.

Whatever the driver is looking at the secondary gunner is looking at the same thing.

(this seems to be the case on some version of the prowler too).

tbh I think the mag got the better of the gunner/driver deal simply *because* the main gun is fixed forward while the whole tank can strafe.

ringring

2012-02-25, 04:35 PM

You can go over the water. There's your trade off.

and the float aspect gives a more stable shooting platform over rougher terrain.

*remember the prowlers main gun won't have the arc of the old one so hull down positions will not be as feasible.

Saintlycow

2012-02-25, 05:07 PM

if you watch the reveal from last summer, you can see the mag main cannon shot does not have an arc and fires completely straight. Of course, that was last summer, but it may still be applicable

Erendil

2012-02-25, 05:21 PM

You can go over the water. There's your trade off.

...because in all of the media they've shown us so far there's been so much water around for the Mags to take advantage of.

Oh wait. No there hasn't. :p

Think you have a problem ....

with the vannie the main and secondary guns are in the turret with no seperate turret for the secondary.

Whatever the driver is looking at the secondary gunner is looking at the same thing.

(this seems to be the case on some version of the prowler too).

tbh I think the mag got the better of the gunner/driver deal simply *because* the main gun is fixed forward while the whole tank can strafe.

If you look at both this pic (http://www.planetside-universe.com/media/viewer.php?img_id=1825)and the one AncientVanu posted, you can clearly see that the Vannie has three weapon mounts on it: The main cannon and coaxial LMG for the driver (like PS1's Vannie turret), and a top-mounted independent turret for the gunner.

As for the Mag, it's pretty obvious to everyone what my opinion is *looks at sig*.... The success of the Dev's fixed-forward main cannon design will depend largely on how fast the mag can strafe, rotate, and drive in reverse. It's going to have to be able to move quickly enough to be able to maneuver the whole chassis to deal with threats from the sides, and be able to retreat fast enough going in reverse, otherwise it'll simply be chewed up by any threats that occur from any direction other than the front. Especially for people who want to drive it solo.

TBH I think the design will be extremely difficult to balance just by its very nature. A fixed-forward design may work in small-scale 32vs32 games like BF4192 where there's only a handful of enemy vehicles to deal with, you can hug the edges of the map, and most attacks come from generally one direction. But not in the chaos of huge 666vs666vs666 wars that have dozens if not hundreds of vehicles.

ringring

2012-02-25, 06:12 PM

...

If you look at both this pic (http://www.planetside-universe.com/media/viewer.php?img_id=1825)and the one AncientVanu posted, you can clearly see that the Vannie has three weapon mounts on it: The main cannon and coaxial LMG for the driver (like PS1's Vannie turret), and a top-mounted independent turret for the gunner.

As for the Mag, it's pretty obvious to everyone what my opinion is *looks at sig*.... The success of the Dev's fixed-forward main cannon design will depend largely on how fast the mag can strafe, rotate, and drive in reverse. It's going to have to be able to move quickly enough to be able to maneuver the whole chassis to deal with threats from the sides, and be able to retreat fast enough going in reverse, otherwise it'll simply be chewed up by any threats that occur from any direction other than the front. Especially for people who want to drive it solo.

TBH I think the design will be extremely difficult to balance just by its very nature. A fixed-forward design may work in small-scale 32vs32 games like BF4192 where there's only a handful of enemy vehicles to deal with, you can hug the edges of the map, and most attacks come from generally one direction. But not in the chaos of huge 666vs666vs666 wars that have dozens if not hundreds of vehicles.

You're right ... and yet in this one there isn't one. http://www.planetside-universe.com/media/viewer.php?img_id=1716

(those little 2nd guns on both the vannie and prowlie look pretty anaemic)

Even so, I think the mag will be more user friendly. I'd feel happier with it anyway.

Azren

2012-02-25, 06:22 PM

Those gunner guns look pathetic. Anyone still questions how they will measure against the main guns? lol

Grognard

2012-02-25, 07:12 PM

You can go over the water. There's your trade off.

...and I must admit, that is a pretty big deal too. :cool:

Grognard

2012-02-25, 07:16 PM

As for the Mag, it's pretty obvious to everyone what my opinion is *looks at sig*.... The success of the Dev's fixed-forward main cannon design will depend largely on how fast the mag can strafe, rotate, and drive in reverse. It's going to have to be able to move quickly enough to be able to maneuver the whole chassis to deal with threats from the sides, and be able to retreat fast enough going in reverse, otherwise it'll simply be chewed up by any threats that occur from any direction other than the front. Especially for people who want to drive it solo.

Another excellent point, turn rate is absolutely going to make, or break, this tank.

Grognard

2012-02-25, 07:21 PM

You're right ... and yet in this one there isn't one. http://www.planetside-universe.com/media/viewer.php?img_id=1716

(those little 2nd guns on both the vannie and prowlie look pretty anaemic)

Even so, I think the mag will be more user friendly. I'd feel happier with it anyway.

That picture illustrates precisely what I mean... look how flat the terrain is here, then look at the distance from the ground the gun is on both the Van, and the Mag... Now, imagine all the various terrain types, and doodads all over the place that can interfere with simple straight-line shooting...

Grognard

2012-02-25, 07:26 PM

Hmmm, I am seeing something here, that maybe I (dis)like, I wonder what happens when we go tank to tank, and a Mag gets nose to nose with a Van, and just tucks-in... It looks like neither the Van, nor the Prowler will be able to get enough declination to hit the Mag, but the Mags gun is tucked like a knife into the underbelly of the other tanks...

Things that make ya go "hmmm"...

BorisBlade

2012-02-25, 07:41 PM

Those gunner guns look pathetic. Anyone still questions how they will measure against the main guns? lol

Supposedly, according to the devs, they are very powerful, much more so than secondary guns in PS1.

As far as the main gun attached to the body, its bad for more than just the obvious thats its terrible that the pilot is a gunner too.

If you remember how insanely terrible it was to try to precisely aim the PPA gun in PS1, the new mag must have zero drift. It must immediately stop when you stop turning just like a normal tank turret or it will be junk when it comes to combat. It must move exactly as smoothly and accurately as a normal tank, which in the case of this hovering tank would be more like a sluggish infantry. And of course it will have the same problems with height and visual clearance as mentioned before since it sits so low. And of course since its not a round vehicle if you are firing sideways then you cant move thru trees or rocks etc like all other tanks can without smashing into things much more often. And of course many other drawbacks.

The idea of trying to make the tank unique with the turret-less main gun is cool, however its not even remotely worth the cost of loss of function or gameplay. It should be redesigned with the turret on top. Of course i vote they dont stop there and just make tanks 3 man vehicles with 2gunners and one pilot but one can only hope.

Warborn

2012-02-25, 08:32 PM

Magrider gun positions are all screwed up, I agree. I'm not sure why they felt beholden to keep the magrider the same yet totally switched up the prowler into a roomba with guns. Go ahead and redesign the Vanu tank, we won't mind.

Scrima

2012-02-25, 08:52 PM

Erendil

2012-02-25, 09:13 PM

If the turn rate is slightly faster than the turret turn rate on the other tanks and the turret is high enough to shoot at mostly the same level of the other tanks, I think we're fine. The ability to strafe, in addition to the additional maneuverability has the HUGE advantage of always being able to keep your front armor (the strongest armor by default) at your target.

Yep, being able to constantly present the front of your tank will be a big advantage.

The only other potential problem I could think of would be to let the Mag keep it's forward momentum while rotating so it can travel in one direction but rotate to fire at threats from the flanks. Otherwise an enemy tank could just drive parallel to the Mag's vector and broadside it with no fear of retaliation if the Mag driver is solo. Or even worse, just get behind the mag and circle around it to stay at its backside as the Mag tries to turn to face you. This is esp true for Prowlers and Lightnings since they're going to be faster than the Mag.

CutterJohn

2012-02-25, 10:22 PM

Those gunner guns look pathetic. Anyone still questions how they will measure against the main guns? lol

Model size is irrelevant. If you'd had a BFR, you'd have exchanged the massive arm mounted AA weapons for the teeny tiny AA Max weapons in a heartbeat.

That said the turret does look pretty puny, and they could be a bit more substantial.

Concerning the mag forward gun viability, that depends entirely on the mags maneuverability. I'm sure it will have a much improved turning speed over the prowler/vanny, along with have greater strafe capabilities than PS1.

If its anything like this, it should rule.

Battlezone 2 single player game play - YouTube

Bravix

2012-02-25, 10:54 PM

Oh em gee Becky!!!! It's Battlezone 2 :D

Oh, ze memories...

Grognard

2012-02-25, 11:01 PM

Oh em gee Becky!!!! It's Battlezone 2 :D

Oh, ze memories...

Definately, I was wondering what was up, some stuff I didnt recognize... Then realized it was BZ original I was flashing back to... I still have some very vivid memories of that game...

Vash02

2012-02-25, 11:18 PM

Maneuverability doesent mean squat if it means you get stuck on a tree/boulder everytime you try and focus on a target. BZ isnt exactly known for its plentiful flora.

Zulthus

2012-02-25, 11:42 PM

The only other potential problem I could think of would be to let the Mag keep it's forward momentum while rotating so it can travel in one direction but rotate to fire at threats from the flanks

Ooooh, I really want this. It would make sense as well. However, it might be a problem trying to turn like that if A and D are strafe but you keep your forward momentum when turning the mouse.

SztEltviz

2012-06-08, 05:55 AM

Now, as i watched the E3 videos, i think too, that the mag's main gun's position is too low. Too much bumps and wrecks and can obstruct the line of fire. Too many narrow places where it cannot turn to aim. In PS1 the PPS wasn't that important, and the main gun was on top and in turret. I think mag needs a turret in PS2 too.

Figment

2012-06-08, 08:04 AM

The Magrider is a self propelled gun, not a tank.

In other words, a tank destroyer. >.>

Fafnir

2012-06-08, 08:33 AM

The Magrider is a self propelled gun, not a tank.

In other words, a tank destroyer. >.>

This is not World of Tanks :rolleyes:

ThermalReaper

2012-06-08, 08:39 AM

EDIT: After rethinking, I believe it should have a higher position of the gun. The 360 issue is probably negated by the fact the magrider can strafe and other tanks can't.

SztEltviz

2012-06-08, 08:41 AM

The Magrider is a self propelled gun, not a tank.

In other words, a tank destroyer. >.>

It's ok, then VS needs an another vehicle, a real tank :)

Figment

2012-06-08, 08:42 AM

This is not World of Tanks :rolleyes:

No. And the Magrider isn't quite a tank. Your point?

It's ok, then VS needs an another vehicle, a real tank :)

Yep, so they can move forwards while firing sideways like the others.

In contrast, the other two empires could do with a fixed gun tank too.

*doodles*
http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb180/HanSime/Planetside%20Vehicle%20Concepts/th_TD_Concepts2.jpg (http://s211.photobucket.com/albums/bb180/HanSime/Planetside%20Vehicle%20Concepts/?action=view&current=TD_Concepts2.jpg)

DayOne

2012-06-08, 08:44 AM

Vexus

2012-06-10, 02:07 AM

Aesthetically, my preference would be for a tank to have a top mounted gun, not a grill mounted gun, so I'm definitely in agreement with the OP. Functionally, the top mounted gun seems to make the most sense as well.

But, I guess the desire to be different and the trade-off of +strafing and -turret lead to the current design. I'm not really a fan of it, but it doesn't seem to be gimped from what I've seen of the alpha videos so far.

I like the look of the Vanguard tank the best and the Magrider the least, which has me interested in checking out the NC first once beta starts.

bpostal

2012-06-10, 02:30 AM

...*doodles*
http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb180/HanSime/Planetside%20Vehicle%20Concepts/th_TD_Concepts2.jpg (http://s211.photobucket.com/albums/bb180/HanSime/Planetside%20Vehicle%20Concepts/?action=view&current=TD_Concepts2.jpg)

Needs more cannons!

As for the magrider, have a sidegrade that switches the two weapons. Only downside is that your secondary gun can only cover the front. As a TR, I don't mind.