A minutes silence for everyone

[mikkyT]

Not that I'm trying to stir up policitcal debate, as my views are clear - Saddam must go. Thankfully its not my job to decide how we (the 'civilised' world) go about this task.

But heres a lil something I found at http://www.electrotoxic.com/silence.htm (quoted below)

Makes you think don't it?

--- from http://www.electrotoxic.com/silence.htm ---
If you are still shaken by the horrifying scenes of September 11, please observe a moment of silence for the 5,000 civilian lives lost in the New York, Washington, DC and Pennsylvania attacks.

While we're at it, let's have 13 minutes of silence for the 130,000 Iraqi civilians killed in 1991 by order of President Bush Sr. Take another moment to remember how Americans celebrated and cheered in the streets.

Now another 20 minutes of silence for the 200,000 Iranians killed by Iraqi soldiers using weapons and money provided to young Saddam Hussein by the American government before the great eagle turned all its power against Iraq.

Another 15 minutes of silence for the Russians and 150,000 Afghans killed by troops supported and trained by the CIA.

Plus 10 minutes of silence for 300,000 Japanese killed in Hiroshima and Nagasaki by the Atomic bombs dropped by the USA.

We've just kept quiet for one hour....one minute for the Americans killed in NY, DC, and Pennsylvania...and 59 minutes for their victims throughout the world.



If you are still in awe, let's have another hour of silence for all those killed in Vietnam, which is not something Americans like to admit. The US went to another continent thousands of miles away and burnt tens of thousands of Vietnamese peasants with napalm.

Or for the massacre in Panama in 1989, where American troops attacked poor villagers, leaving 20,000 Panamanians homeless and thousands more dead. Or for the millions of children who have died because of the USA embargoes on Iraq and Cuba. Or the hundreds of thousands brutally murdered throughout the world by US-sponsored civil wars and coups d'etat (Chile, Argentina, Uruguay, Bolivia, Guatemala, El Salvador to name a few).

What about the 560,000 Iraqi children (as per current UN data) who have died as a direct cause of the US supported sanctions against Iraq? Are these the children of a lesser God? What about a new generation of nearly one million Iraqi children who are currently having their lives being ruined by improper nutrition, lack of medicine and inferior education because of US supported sanctions.



Maybe, and although the memory of Americans claims otherwise, someone may remember the USA attack on Bagdad where 18,000 civilians were killed. Did someone see it on CNN? Was justice ever served? Or was there even any retaliation? We hope that Americans finally begin to understand their vulnerability and the attacks and other tragedies that they have caused around the world. The dead in other places hurt as much as the dead of the Towers, maybe even more!

Now, let's talk about terrorism, shall we?

[KoldFusion]

It is war people die... even civillians...life moves on. Stop and think.....
how many of the alleged Iraqi civillians were actual military personnel dressed up as civillians for propoganda purposes.

stop and think about how many vietmanese "civillians" had bombs strapped to their chest and tried to kill American soldiers. No matter what age you are.... you are the enemy when you have a weapon and use it. Any human would do it. Your not going to stand there and let a kid with TNT walk up and hug you are you? no.... you'll save yourself.... and if anyone here says different they are lying.

We have killed innocents.... sometimes wrongly.... sorry.... but we aren't the only one that does it.

[Hamma]

:ugh:

[KoldFusion]

i'm sorry i know my comments can be harsh.... I feel for innocent victims everywhere... I really do... as long as they are innocent. Didn't mean to take your thread where you didn't want it to go.... i just had reponse and thought I would share it.

[Squeeky]

Very interesting article, I still dont want to go to war :(

[Big Bro]

I would be interested where all the numbers are coming from. No credible source was identified. They seem skewed, and they are very generic with the term "civilian".

I'm not denying that people all over the world have died unjustly, or that America has, in the past, been involved in questionable activities. I'm just saying I believe this story to be base on unfounded numbers.

[Mtx]

I kill people in SOCOM all the time. You don't see me having a moment of silence... unless you count the silencer.

[MrVulcan]

At least America tries not to kill the innocent, unlike most others who target them, America is not in the business of gassing the masses, or killing the poor for sport.

What about Hitler, what about Stalin?
my ancestors were killed and run out of the country by Stalin

before that, what about Rome, Egypt, Greece, Gangahs Kahn, barbarians of the north, Vikings, need I go on?

This happens throughout history, all one can do is try to minimize the deaths, that is all. In war, Not killing ends up with you, and those you care about being killed, so all you can do is try and defend yourself, try and make the world a slightly better and safer place for one more day, just one more day.

If someone broke into your house and started shooting at you and your family, would you return fire? Would you save your family, would you preserve life? Would you take any risk to save your life and that of your family? I know that I would. War is nothing more than that in a large case. In the end, you are trying to save your family, your life, and your way of living.

BTW: the nukes saved another chapter in the war, if not for them, we would have had to invade Japan, causing several millions of Japanese deaths and a couple million Americans, so you can say that they saved millions of lives instead of killed millions.

[Mtx]

Originally posted by MrVulcan

If someone broke into your house and started shooting at you and your family, would you return fire?

I'd probably be dead. Generally when someone busts into a house and starts firing they don't stop so you can go get your gun.

;)

Originally posted by MrVulcan

BTW: the nukes saved another chapter in the war, if not for them, we would have had to invade Japan, causing several millions of Japanese deaths and a couple million Americans, so you can say that they saved millions of lives instead of killed millions.

I agree with that. It also made the Russians think twice about finishing off what was left of Europe.

[KoldFusion]

Originally posted by Mtx
I kill people in SOCOM all the time. You don't see me having a moment of silence... unless you count the silencer.

Took your funny pills did ya :) :D :p ;) :love:

[mistled]

Innocents die in war. Always have. Always will. Hence the saying, "War is Hell".

[Revolution]

Now dont correct me if I am wrong. Instead STFU! :)

If I remember correct near end of WW2 Russia had a massive millitary army on its boarders claiming to 'be protecting' itself.

Now if it was not for the nukes dropped on Japan, that crazy Russian mu Fuka might have gone on and decided to roll through Europe and take it over. Now Europe is a wreck thanks to Hitler, and the Allied forces are worn down. So add the millions of lives in Russia and Europe AND the US that were also saved from using 2 strategic nukes on Military Towns. Not like we bombed Tokyo you fucktards!

[OneManArmy]

Its sad but when you start talking about soldiers, they knew the risks before they signed up. If you are talking about the civilians that die because we place embargos. that is hardly the USA fault, If said country would straigten up then we wouldn't have to do that, so I'd say the blame for thoses deaths goes to whatever country the peole are dying in.

[Lexington_Steele]

It shows you why people in other countries don't like us too much.

If you were not an American and you were presented with those facts, you might slide a notch or two towards being anti American. America's action are not always holy, but like you said war is hell. America has been very lucky in the last 20 years. We have not seen the loss of human life through violent action the way many other countries have. Wars we have been fought have not been on American soil.

I don't think we need to bring Hitler or Stalin in to this unless you really feel that America deserves to be compared to Hitler or Stalin.

I don't think you should have taken the original post as an insult to America. Remember, you could make a similar list for Saddam Hussein and it would probably look much worse. However the original post can give you insight to how and why people in other countries hate us when merely presented with true facts.

[Lexington_Steele]

Originally posted by OneManArmy
Its sad but when you start talking about soldiers, they knew the risks before they signed up. If you are talking about the civilians that die because we place embargos. that is hardly the USA fault, If said country would straigten up then we wouldn't have to do that, so I'd say the blame for thoses deaths goes to whatever country the peole are dying in.

Just so you know, in many middle eastern countries, any male of the age of 18 is required to serve in the military. It is not optional. There was no point at which they voluntarily signed up knowing the risks.

Off the top of my head I know that Israel requires military service of their male citizens and so does Iran. It would not suprise me if Iraq had a similar requirement of all its men.

[Unregistered]

Germany also requires everyone to server in either the Military or a civil service corps type thing (I can't remember what it's called). For them it's just like another year of school after the finish High School.

[Confectrix]

It is so sad a day when the very soldiers who have taken an oath for the protection of their homeland are ripped apart because they were following orders. Orders which had a purpose; orders which did not intend civilian causalties but nevertheless incured them. War's goal is not the murdering of civilians; that is terrorism's goal.

American troops are never, and never have been at the level of terrorists.

I spit in the face of thee whom says it so.

[Airlift]

Can we get some silence for all the people killed by the Tartars in the 1300s when Timur teh Lame conquered Asia? Or the people killed by Kublai Khan in the 1200s or the people killed by Genghis Khan in the 1100s. Lest we forget the poor cavemen who were overcome and killed by their neighboring tribe before we had all that history to throw at each other.

Say what you will, but at least thos fokkers were killing each other with sticks, rocks, and sharp knives.

[NARF]

What about the 250,000,000 people in America who have been saved MANY times from nuclear and biological attack, THIS WEEK ALONE, because 100 or 200 people were in the way. What about the 300,000 people in Russia that US Special Forces saved, in secret (these are the guys that don't exist) from a tactical nuke, by killing 50 innocent people because there was nothing tey could do to warn them, but not killing them would have led to more deaths. What about YOU who has been saved by United States Armed Forces more times than you can imagine, but a person or two has had thier house burnt.

YOU would have a bullet through your head and you testicles cut off if it wasn't for those people dying, it's not like nothing came of thier deaths, and it wasn't as if we WANTED to kill them.

What about the ENTIRE F****** POPULATION OF CHINA? WHO HAS BEEN SAVED FROM CHINESE RADICALS WHO WANT THE MILITARY POWER? WHAT? INNOCENTS GOT KILLED? OH WE CAN'T H"AVE THAT, WE'D RATHER LET HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE DIE IN A WORLD WAR OVER THE SOVEIRGTY OF CHINA, WHAT? MORE PEOPLE WOULD DIE IF THOSE PEOPLE DIDn"T DIE? NO DIDn't THINK OF ANY OF THAT DID YOU>

PISS OFF, YOu disgust me, my life dream is to GIVE MY LIFE FOR YOU, and you call me a terrorist? YOU MAKE ME F****** SICK YOU UNGRATEFUL LITTLE B******!

[NARF]

bah, thought there was a filter on this board, can a mod edit those words out, don't want to offend anyone do we...

perhaps you should delete this insteads.

[Headrattle]

Every known civilization has killed innocents. America is by no means innocent.
We have driven the Native Americans from their land, resettled them, then took their land again. We have massacred Vietnamese villagers. We have conducted strange studies on our own people (Tuskegee.) We have oppressed innocent Japanese civilians during WW2. We have imprisoned and black listed people for going to a communist assembly. We have toppled democratically elected governments in fear that they would increase the cost of Bananas. We have backed tyrants murderers and drug dealers while they oppress their own people.

But is it America's fault? Not really. These are the actions of few. These are actions that were taken without the approval or knowledge of the people. The people that did these things should be held accountable and many times were if not immediately then by history.

Every country does bad things. Britain massacred peaceful Indian demonstrators. France killed a crap load of Protestants in the Napoleonic wars. Germany� well we all know about that.
Canada might be the exception but that is because everyone up there is too damn cold to take advantage of others.

Most other governments would erase such mistakes. They wouldn�t let the people learn about them. We do. It might take a few years but we do, many times right after the fact. And, for the most part, people are angry and outraged when it happens. This is an important distinction.


My point is this. We, as people, are no stronger, better, or more moral then any other nation. But our government was structured in a way that would try to make sure these things wouldn�t happen. They still will. But when they do, our constitution tries to make sure the people know about it. It tries to make sure that people aren�t oppressed.

That is why I love my country. That is why I get ticked off whenever Ashcroft takes American citizens, labels them enemy combatants and holds them without access to a Lawyer. AFTER they promised that they would only do this to non-Americans. That is why I sometimes think that we are forgetting what being an American is all about. Wrapping ourselves in the flag forgetting what that flag stands for.
But I digress.

The fact that, we have done bad things in our past is a bad thing.
But the fact that we know of these bad things in our past, and can learn from them is a VERY good thing.
This is a freedom that not everyone has.

Of course you can yell about certain things that are the exception. Certain things that the government is still covering up. But these are few and far between.
And many times border the line of conspiracy.
But again, these things are done by individuals that were given too much power without being accountable for their actions.
But that is my opinion.

Sorry for being so long

[Arshune]

Originally posted by Headrattle
We have toppled democratically elected governments in fear that they would increase the cost of Bananas. I know that really happened and it's horrible and all, but I just can't help but snicker at the ridiculousness of that...

[Headrattle]

Originally posted by Arshune
I know that really happened and it's horrible and all, but I just can't help but snicker at the ridiculousness of that...

Oh I agree. I laughed out loud when I heard about this.
But you have to remember that was when the CIA was called the "brotherhood." They thought at the time that they could get away with anything that they wanted to. A friend of one of the higher ups worked in the fruit industry, and decided that it was in America's interest.

In the 70's much of this changed when the senate decided to look into what they were doing.
That changed much of how the CIA worked. They decided to be a little more accountable after that.