Why K:D, Deaths, streaks and other stats are bad, and how PS2 can evolve the genre

[Skitrel]

Let the people decide what stats are more valuable than others. Don't censor my stats because you have strange ideas about how players react to seeing them. Don't force your concepts of how people should play this game on me. You do your thing, let me do mine. If you don't want to know how many deaths you have you can ignore it. I want to know.

Just to clarify. I'm not suggesting the removal of K : D within stats tracking, I'm saying it should be buried away, with something else being the primary emphasis, particularly this is of importance in teach new players what they're supposed to be doing, versus chaos.

A game that teaches players how to play properly is a game that removes the annoyance and burden newbies put on the core player base. Assimilating them from newbie into being a productive member of the war as fast as possible is key. K : D and whatever else people can think of should be in game, just not prominent. Score : Death ought to be the most prominent.

I however feel there's a place for the K : D whores. Give base defenders higher points for their kills, they don't have an objective to play other than defend. Balance this using the mass amount of stats that will accumulate throughout beta to average out at being roughly equal to what objective attackers will earn, on average of course, over many hours of play. This gives both types of players a role on the field and takes what many perceive to be a burden and turns them into an asset as part of the defensive front.

Essentially, this solves all the problems.

[Figment]

Let's consider the stats in World of Tanks, a game where winning the battle gets you more exp than killing the enemies, exp for kills AND NON-kills are shared by the amount of damage you do.

The "death" stat is portrayed as a fraction of battles you survived, rather than those you did not survive (around 60-70% of the matches, even if you win, you will die before the end). The death stat is quite meaningless. In fact, it is often frowned upon if you have a low death ratio. Why? Because people FIRST look at another ratio: wins vs losses. Then at how many matches you played. Then EXPERIENCE gained per match. Then DAMAGE per match (per unit type). Then kills and scouted enemies per match. THEN they look at your survival rate, to see if you aren't some camping twat who costs other people the match by being too passive. Basically they look at the overall picture of efficiency and try to establish that in another way than mere kills (which never tell the whole story).


Unfortunately, World of Tanks does not encourage community building itself very well as you cannot determine who you play with or against and can only team up with two buddies. However, by making wins more important than kills, they broke the traditional and erroneous way of looking at what a good player is.


A good PlanetSide player is more than a good killer. Statistics should reflect what a good PlanetSide player entails. K/D does not depict anything relevant for a PlanetSide player. Unfortunately, because it's the first thing mentioned in the bar, it's perceived as the most important thing.

It's funny that the "Assisted Kills" stat in PlanetSide, is usualy overlooked. I may get 9 kills in an hour, but get 300-500 assisted kills and a relatively lot of real estate, while dieing a whole lot more than the average player: I'm an infil. Stats should reflect THAT. Not compare me to the nearest Vanguard or Aircav gunner. It would IMO be much more interesting to track the amount of hexes, bases and resources captured in PS than the amount of deaths.


And if people start screaming about deaths, we'll just need to potty train them.

[FriendlyFire]

It doesn't have to benefit the game play to be fun.

[Malorn]

But I do have to say the mainstream audience will burst if there is no k/d of any kind, just like they did that with Brink.

Right, but it doesn't matter. They'll get over it like they get over every 24 hour news cycle. Should do what is right for the game, not pander to what they think people might or might not complain about.

It probably wont hurt the game too much, I mean who wouldnt play simply due to that? (i guess some might) but still, it will be QQed about if its out.

Not a single person would actually sit out PS2 due to it not having K:D tracking. Might see idle threats of account cancellation (for a f2p game, lol), but it's too insignificant and ridiculous. They'll adapt to it not being there and gravitate to another stat, just like they did with psstats. They'll focus on kills, score, and stuff like territory captures instead. Which is good for the game.

[Malorn]

What if the game doesn't have K/D on by default, but instead lets you pick 1 or 2 stats from a large pool to watch on-screen. I would personally pick K/D & accuracy, but others may want bullets fired, revives, whatever. Make the default off and mix K/D in with all the other stats making it appear to be no more important than the others.

I would settle for this approach because it places no more emphasis on it than anything else and puts the player in control over what is important to them. It effectively solves the problem provided deaths and K:D are not in the default. The default should be carefully chosen though, I have a recommendation below.

Let the user choose which stats other than the core Planetside metrics (score, territories, medals) are important. This is similar to how players in PS1 got to chose which merits they displayed. If bomber piloting was something I liked to do, then that's the merit I could display on my shoulder. Similarly, if Vanguard kills are the stat I'm proud of and the stat I work to improve every day, that should be the stat I see on my screen, AND it should be the stat others see when they view my profile online. It's like a highlight reel - I'm a vanguard driver, that's what I do.

I think some stats should be in-your-face and always there, because those are stats that people should be encouraged to improve and are good for the game. If I were to pick 3 for that, they would be:

Score/min (or current score), territory captures, and medals should always be shown in that order. Two of those are already featured on the stats page, the "territory captures" one isnt', but I really think it should be.

Then give the user at least 3 stats they can customize, which would include almost every other stat, revives, repairs, whatever.

The default for these other 3 stats should definitely not include deaths or K:D, but I think the default should include:
- Facility captures
- Kills
- Assists (including assists from driving, healing, etc)

If the person doesn't care about one or more of those they could change them, like swapping Facility Captures for Revives, or Kills for repairs or something like that.

And one other thing - the 3 stats the user picks are not just what the user sees on their screen; they are also what other people see when they view the character. That way a person can promote the stats that they care about and show them off, like you could show off merits in PS1.

[Graywolves]

In starcraft 2 they made it so that you can't see another player's lossed game count unless they were in a really high league.

Perhaps in Planetside 2 something similar could happen except the top 100 per server or so will have their stats public.



I completely agree about how promoting personal kill streaks and strong K/D does more harm than good but it's something that's going to be there. In SC2 after they removed the ability for me to see my losses I just kept track of it personally.


I also think that the more serious players are going to realize which stats mean absolutely nothing very quickly too. It's fun to joke around and brag about your K/D but anyone that takes it serious and goes to a top outfit going "You NEED to invite me because I'm the best Killwhore on the server" is just going to be a joke.

[Dahlian]

I pretty much agree with the OP.

When I was watching the GDC vids and they showed the profile and stats tracking, I felt a bit let down. I'm mostly going to play engineer or medic and I don't think my K/D is the most relevant stat for support classes. It makes sense for things like sniper which is more about the headcount than anything else. Support classes should have something to show for it as well.

I'd support a score based system, though I don't think removing death in K/D is a good idea. Its a bit like SC2 where they removed losses and just shows wins. Win's are meaningless without losses. But then again, providing options to decide wether to show deaths or not would probably satisfy more people than removing it entirely.

[EVILoHOMER]

I have to wonder what kind of impact stat tracking would have on server performance if they were to track every single stat for each player. I would rather have more players, less lag and less stats if it mean lots of stat tracking would increase lag and cut down on players per server.

[Ragotag]

...So at what point did "killing" not become the primary objective in any shooter game? Bf3, COD, MOH, PS1, and soon to be PS2, killing the enemy is the primary objective, period.

...As I have said before, the killwhores move up the front line. They push the enemy to the spawns so that support players can fall in behind and set up defenses on captured territory.

From my experiences, I totally disagree with this; if you were referring to say, Team Deathmatch, then you would be right on the mark here. However, in an objective-base game mode, killing is a means, not the end. Capturing and holding objectives is what it is all about and killing is only one of several means to support this activity.

But in all fairness, I've seen a few run-n-gun style killwhores pushing into objectives... and then scoot right on past the objective looking for more meat to drop. The other side to that coin, and IMO - the more frequent killwhore stratagem, is to hang back and preserve KDR via sniping or other long range combat tactics.

Why do people think that "killwhores" are bad? The bottom line is if you are good at killing people in a WAR game, you are progressing your empire.

Actually, as implied above, the capture of objectives is what progresses your faction, not the killing. Too often the killwhores will only support objective captures so long as it does not impact their KDR, and when they do, they are often less concerned over the objective and more concerned with their kill count. This is not very supportive for the squad, the Outfit, or the faction; but that's just my opinion.

The tracking of deaths isn't what's bad, it's the kills part of the KD equation that falsely sets the wrong goal.

... K : D emphasis will cause 100 snipers lined up on the mountain ridges, a la Battlefield, trying to earn kills with 0 deaths.

...This is the most simple argument in the world and anyone, even those that haven't played PS before can understand it. In a game where kills have no effect towards the GOAL (Cod goal= more kills than enemy) (Battlefield= take away tickets) then kills shouldn't be part of the equation that is emphasised.

I agree, tracking kills is what will likely promote this style of gameplay; this is the core concern being voiced here. Merely changing kills to something else is an interesting idea. Morlan's idea of using Score verses Kills is an improvement toward minimizing a focus on personal killwhoring, but perhaps not the optimal solution since it still promotes a focus on solo performance. However, I think it's the death (or per life) bases to the stats that is the largest cause of the concern here. Change the denominator to something that is more representative of team support instead of an individual solo effort, and you change the dynamic of what stat tracking promotes. I have suggested tracking stats by mission as an alternative stat denominator, to include all supportive activities in such stat collection -- not just the kills.

I also think that the more serious players are going to realize which stats mean absolutely nothing very quickly too.

I believe this as well; people who have a similar attitude regarding stats and killwhoring will likely group together. I don't think this changes the main concern voiced by Malorn though, which as I read it, is the promotion of solo performance fixation verses team support.

[Physed]

I agree with the OP. A game with so many RPG elements and a persistent world has no need for tracking deaths and prominently featuring kill streaks and kill counts. A player's main goal is to help the empire take territory, so focus the tracking on that and the things that contribute to it (score, xp, assists, etc).

And for those saying that it needs to be included because the "modern FPS players" want it, just remember that those same players will ditch PS2 when the next CoD, MF, or Halo comes out. PS2 is designed to appeal to a different crowd.

[megamold]

I also think that the more serious players are going to realize which stats mean absolutely nothing very quickly too. It's fun to joke around and brag about your K/D but anyone that takes it serious and goes to a top outfit going "You NEED to invite me because I'm the best Killwhore on the server" is just going to be a joke.

i agree.

to make a small comparison: when BF3 first started i noticed alot of cod style players ( run and gun, cover? never heard of it) but they quickly either realized you get a better score by actually helping the team instead of yourself
and the other guys just play team deathmatch or went back to cod

[Eyeklops]

The default should be carefully chosen though

I think the best default would be "off." A drop down box sorted alphabetically with "off" as the default has no intentional bias.

[SKYeXile]

Pretty sure the killwhore outfits won outfit wars... just saying.

[Figment]

Pretty sure the killwhore outfits won outfit wars... just saying.

Wouldn't say killwhore outfits, "1337fits" rather. Defensively it was about holding chokepoints with DL and spamming CE. Offensively it was about aircav use. These outfits collected specialists and veterans in both and worked together doing just that for years in resecs and holds.

Ground based outfits were air dominated and Galdrop outfits (that only work thanks to big distractions of the big battle) had to adapt to mass Mossie/Reaver/Lib tactics, where some of them never flew before. I wasn't surprised about who would win anyway.

Some of these outfits were killwhory at times (farming interfarms et al), but to say they were all or just killwhores would be dealing them short. To say outfit wars was a good representation of in game to the types of outfits is also a bit meh, since it wasn't exactly a representation of regular PS play. >.>

[Malorn]

Please stay on topic.

[Duddy]

I have to wonder what kind of impact stat tracking would have on server performance if they were to track every single stat for each player. I would rather have more players, less lag and less stats if it mean lots of stat tracking would increase lag and cut down on players per server.

A bit OT, but to address this point; (Also lol'd at this coming in directly after Malorn's post xD)

One would hope (by which I mean it would be monumentally silly otherwise, at least IMHO) that such stats would be stored in a database on a server other than those used for hosting the game. Depending on how/how frequent they update those stats would probably demand a dedicated DB.

The best way to be sure is to ask if we can speak to their database admin (DBA) and network admin!

Now back to your scheduled programming.

[Hydra]

[Opinion: No logical grounds provided to support this statement]
Obviously you never played the original planetside or you just sucked at it, zerging into a tower or base in my years of playing never won the day it took strategy and perseverance, my facts lie in my experience in the god damn game. Why would I even mention this if it wasn't proof already?


Again Kill whores don't really contribute anything to the team, there is such a lack of team effort from their part because the only thing they are interested in their "domination" and kill streaks which unsurprisingly has been implemented in planetside 2. There is a difference between a teamplayer and a killwhore I seriously hope you know this fact, A teamplayer doesn't care about getting 20-0 in which case a killwhore does. Kills whores are useless pieces of shit.

[Opinion,unfounded claims of ownership & ability to delegate importance]

So you are saying a K/D ratio is more important then improving? Or do you like think your intelligent by stating your opinion?

Future prediction of other players [B]abilities* using a non quantitative* term (ALOT), nice..yea, opinion

Because a K/D ratio doesn't encourage solo play and Kill whoring ok.:rolleyes:

Opinion, speculation, how do you know that's all they have?
Ah yes, because most of current FPS's on the market DOESN'T encourage kill whoring and encourages more team-play.

Name me one game like Planetside.


[Opinion, with name calling, bravo!]
:boohoo:

Ok, so upon dissection of your post, I found it to be mostly made up of strong opinion. This is an open forum, that is your right. But could you please quantify, in some logical manner using facts, how the part of the sentence after the comma in the picture you posted is true.

There's that word again, you seem to forget everything you also say is an opinion as well constatly repating the obvious does not make you look any smarter.
Fact of the matter is and I'll repeat it; Kill whoring does not belong in planetside due to the fact it never had a place in the first one, this isn't fucking battlefield or Cawwaduty I understand that the original will have to be brought up to meet certain FPS standards but fuck off with that garbage. There's a variety of outfits in Planetside for example DT, an excellent well coordinated group that I have seen turn the tide of battle, not once did I ever see their members zerg in a base without their team and attempt to get as many kills as they can before they die. You think anyone gives a shit about that other VS guy running out of the base by himself to find the ams and get kills? No. Because he doesn't contribute anything to the team, hell you don't even get that much experience for killing someone who just spawned.

You are truly a piece of shit player if the only thing you care about is your "K/D ratio" and not improving your skill for the glory of your empire. Yes I'm fucking pissed that this shit is even in the game in the first place, yes a K/D ratio was in the first one but half the people I know didn't even know it existed, it was in the background where it belong something - that should be personal and not fucking advertise.

And before you shout any meaninglessness garbage in a attempt to make yourself look smarter then you really are, why don't you play the original planetside right now and join in one of the battles and tell me your K/D ratio contributes to the team and wins the battle.

I don't see the point of the graph if they have that ratio, but you know what? lets face it. I mean look at your sig, you are a shitty troll and exactly the kind of problem why these fucking idiotic features have been added to this game. I've been playing planetside since 05, and I'm pretty fucking sure I know what hell I'm talking about don't start preaching to me about fucking facts- I KNOW THEM.

[Skitrel]

A bit OT, but to address this point; (Also lol'd at this coming in directly after Malorn's post xD)

One would hope (by which I mean it would be monumentally silly otherwise, at least IMHO) that such stats would be stored in a database on a server other than those used for hosting the game. Depending on how/how frequent they update those stats would probably demand a dedicated DB.

The best way to be sure is to ask if we can speak to their database admin (DBA) and network admin!

Now back to your scheduled programming.

Everything in terms of stats tracked by the game already has to be tracked by the game in order to facilitate gameplay. Bullets hit, bullets fired from your gun, and so on. Adding all of the stuff you do in game to a database really isn't taxing on the game, it's just a matter of instead of throwing away the log of everything you do in game it is passed on to be parsed for a database. Stat updating probably won't happen in realtime.

[Raymac]

Kill whoring does not belong in planetside due to the fact it never had a place in the first one.

I just want to touch on this point real quick. I think this quote is a very elitist point of view. You obviously don't like killwhores. That's fine and I can respect that. However, Planetside is an open-world game with thousands of players all battling at once. I think that it should encourage and support ALL kinds of players, from the 40/0 K/D whores, to the methodical tactical squads, to the non-shooter support players.

Your way to play the game may be the best way, but it is not the ONLY way. One of the great things about Planetside should be that it is accessable to all kinds of playstyles. I believe that will add to the logevity and success of the game and a large thriving community. Norrowing the "acceptable" players down to only a certain type of person is wrong.

[Eyeklops]

Hydra, let's not take this thread farther off topic. If you want to continue to debate over opinions create a new thread in the appropriate area and send me a pm linking to it.

[Hydra]

I just want to touch on this point real quick. I think this quote is a very elitist point of view. You obviously don't like killwhores. That's fine and I can respect that. However, Planetside is an open-world game with thousands of players all battling at once. I think that it should encourage and support ALL kinds of players, from the 40/0 K/D whores, to the methodical tactical squads, to the non-shooter support players.

Your way to play the game may be the best way, but it is not the ONLY way. One of the great things about Planetside should be that it is accessable to all kinds of playstyles. I believe that will add to the logevity and success of the game and a large thriving community. Norrowing the "acceptable" players down to only a certain type of person is wrong.


That's a really good point, I like that you mentioned that there are many types of play-styles, that's something I haven't considered. I suppose Killwhores will make viable meat-shields with the newbies. Touche, Touche. I suppose I was being elitist, I guess its one of those subjects that's irks me the wrong way, I'll calm down for down. :lol:


Hydra, let's not take this thread farther off topic. If you want to continue to debate over opinions create a new thread in the appropriate area and send me a pm linking to it.

How about No.
I'm done talking to you.

[Duddy]

Everything in terms of stats tracked by the game already has to be tracked by the game in order to facilitate gameplay. Bullets hit, bullets fired from your gun, and so on. Adding all of the stuff you do in game to a database really isn't taxing on the game, it's just a matter of instead of throwing away the log of everything you do in game it is passed on to be parsed for a database. Stat updating probably won't happen in realtime.

You are of course entirely correct, so thank you, but I'm already aware that this could be (and probably is) the case. :)

I still believe that you'd be updating this to a server other than the ones hosting the game. It's not that the process is particularly CPU intensive its the potential for bandwidth consumption which could spoil things.

As you rightly state, this wouldn't be done in real time, but any large number of open DB connections at once will have a meaningful performance impact.

[Raymac]

That's a really good point, I like that you mentioned that there are many types of play-styles, that's something I haven't considered. I suppose Killwhores will make viable meat-shields with the newbies. Touche, Touche. I suppose I was being elitist, I guess its one of those subjects that's irks me the wrong way, I'll calm down for down. :lol:


Plus, how much fun is it to take down a killwhore using superior tactics and making him rage for losing his kill streak? :p

I say bring on these primative killwhore savages and we will convert them to the true path with the light of righteousness.

[Hamma]

Please stay on topic.
This.

Guys please stay on topic.. do not derail threads.

[Raymac]

I thought discouraging killwhoring was at the root of the topic?

[TacKLed]

Do people really think that adding or removing a live K/D meter REALLY changes the way people play?




Yes.

[Aurmanite]

[Opinion: No logical grounds provided to support this statement]
Obviously you never played the original planetside or you just sucked at it, zerging into a tower or base in my years of playing never won the day it took strategy and perseverance, my facts lie in my experience in the god damn game. Why would I even mention this if it wasn't proof already?


Again Kill whores don't really contribute anything to the team, there is such a lack of team effort from their part because the only thing they are interested in their "domination" and kill streaks which unsurprisingly has been implemented in planetside 2. There is a difference between a teamplayer and a killwhore I seriously hope you know this fact, A teamplayer doesn't care about getting 20-0 in which case a killwhore does. Kills whores are useless pieces of shit.

[Opinion,unfounded claims of ownership & ability to delegate importance]

So you are saying a K/D ratio is more important then improving? Or do you like think your intelligent by stating your opinion?

Future prediction of other players [B]abilities* using a non quantitative* term (ALOT), nice..yea, opinion

Because a K/D ratio doesn't encourage solo play and Kill whoring ok.:rolleyes:

Opinion, speculation, how do you know that's all they have?
Ah yes, because most of current FPS's on the market DOESN'T encourage kill whoring and encourages more team-play.

Name me one game like Planetside.


[Opinion, with name calling, bravo!]
:boohoo:



There's that word again, you seem to forget everything you also say is an opinion as well constatly repating the obvious does not make you look any smarter.
Fact of the matter is and I'll repeat it; Kill whoring does not belong in planetside due to the fact it never had a place in the first one, this isn't fucking battlefield or Cawwaduty I understand that the original will have to be brought up to meet certain FPS standards but fuck off with that garbage. There's a variety of outfits in Planetside for example DT, an excellent well coordinated group that I have seen turn the tide of battle, not once did I ever see their members zerg in a base without their team and attempt to get as many kills as they can before they die. You think anyone gives a shit about that other VS guy running out of the base by himself to find the ams and get kills? No. Because he doesn't contribute anything to the team, hell you don't even get that much experience for killing someone who just spawned.

You are truly a piece of shit player if the only thing you care about is your "K/D ratio" and not improving your skill for the glory of your empire. Yes I'm fucking pissed that this shit is even in the game in the first place, yes a K/D ratio was in the first one but half the people I know didn't even know it existed, it was in the background where it belong something - that should be personal and not fucking advertise.

And before you shout any meaninglessness garbage in a attempt to make yourself look smarter then you really are, why don't you play the original planetside right now and join in one of the battles and tell me your K/D ratio contributes to the team and wins the battle.

I don't see the point of the graph if they have that ratio, but you know what? lets face it. I mean look at your sig, you are a shitty troll and exactly the kind of problem why these fucking idiotic features have been added to this game. I've been playing planetside since 05, and I'm pretty fucking sure I know what hell I'm talking about don't start preaching to me about fucking facts- I KNOW THEM.

Kill whoring is a valid gameplay choice.

Even the term is ridiculous... it's offensive and juvenile. It's a phrase that people who are high on themselves use to demean other people for playing the game the way that is fun for them.

The whole idea of the game is to log in and kill some people. If you're killing people to capture a continent, or killing people to kill people, what the hell is the difference? You can be a super ninja spec ops glorious master of tactics and strategy, I'm happy that Planetside can offer you that experience. I dig it too... it's awesome to play with people who just want to cap the base, re-secure the tower, run the LLU, and so on. But sometimes, I just want to kill people. I just want to log in, find a fight, and let my whims guide me.

Also, lets be honest. There's only a few goals in Planetside. It has all of the same exact game modes as every shooter, including the ones everyone hates to compare it to. It has domination, capture the flag, bombing run (deliver the package) and that's it. Let's try not to romanticize and make it up to be more than it is just because it's special to us.

It is impossible to say that there is no place for in Planetside someone that just wants to jump on, have some fun, and jump off. Even if occasionally the period between jumps can some times be...several hours >.>

I can understand if you want your profile to be private, or choose what stats you want to display. If SoE does it right, the stat site could even have a social networking aspect, where your web profile operates like your Planetside facebook. Having control over your profile is important.

Stats should be tracked. All of them. This is the history of our time spent playing the game we're talking about. Maybe now at this point in time you think this is information you don't need, or want to know. But if you play Planetside 2 for as long as you played the original, in 9 years you will probably want to know how many times you died, how many times you got ran over by a Magrider, or headshot by a sniper.

[SKYeXile]

I thought discouraging killwhoring was at the root of the topic?

Lol nah, just their posting apparently.

[Malorn]

I thought discouraging killwhoring was at the root of the topic?

No. There's a lengthy post at the beginning of this thread that details the root of the topic.

[Saintlycow]

This is my point of view:

Streaks. I'm okay with giving a SMALL bonus for achieving a streak. After all, you're preventing them for doing important things. Make it small so that people have a greater incentive to take the base then to farm the kills.

No kill streaks. This isn't COD.

Stats. Kinda mixed on this one. Stats may be good, but not necessarily important. It gives something to achieve, but that thing may be wrong.

K/D : Show K/D, but not as the most important stat. This has been said time and time again in this thread. How about more fancy ones, such as Score:Death.

Kill whoring : Not a fan. Camping the base is no fun in any game. However, having a few guys covering/camping the spawn room door while the rest of the outfit goes to town and clears out the outpost and takes it IS BENEFICIAL. might not be fun for the people, but interdiction is a tactic used by the military. Anyhow, like Raymac said, it feels good to kill the killwhore.

TLDR : Make kills worth very little in the grand scheme of things, and you should reply to my post because no one ever does.

[Aurmanite]

The OP is all about discouraging certain behaviors, and encouraging others. right?

This has been one of the main talking points throughout the thread.

Why should one style of enjoying the game catered to more than another?

We're talking about things like getting extra XP for killing people in a row. You seriously don't want that? You don't want faster XP?

[SKYeXile]

TLDR : Make kills worth very little in the grand scheme of things, and you should reply to my post because no one ever does.

That never works, its a PvP game, you need to encourage fighting eachother, kills need to be the primary method of advancement, if not people will simply avoid combat and rotate bases or something else equally lame...see WAR and Aion...in WAR people avoid fighting and rotate BOs between eahcother to get renown, in Aion everybody plays the one faction and fights the NPC mobs at the forts for GLORIOUS "PVP" GEAR.

[Aurmanite]

This is my point of view:

Streaks. I'm okay with giving a SMALL bonus for achieving a streak. After all, you're preventing them for doing important things. Make it small so that people have a greater incentive to take the base then to farm the kills.

No kill streaks. This isn't COD.

Stats. Kinda mixed on this one. Stats may be good, but not necessarily important. It gives something to achieve, but that thing may be wrong.

K/D : Show K/D, but not as the most important stat. This has been said time and time again in this thread. How about more fancy ones, such as Score:Death.

Kill whoring : Not a fan. Camping the base is no fun in any game. However, having a few guys covering/camping the spawn room door while the rest of the outfit goes to town and clears out the outpost and takes it IS BENEFICIAL. might not be fun for the people, but interdiction is a tactic used by the military. Anyhow, like Raymac said, it feels good to kill the killwhore.

TLDR : Make kills worth very little in the grand scheme of things, and you should reply to my post because no one ever does.

heh :D

You have a lot of great points, friend.

[RavenUSC3]

I didn't read all seven pages so someone may have already mentioned something like what I'm proposing, and if so, my apologies.

I did read Mal's post though and agree with his points that K/D ratio shouldn't be a main focus. I also agree with a few of the other initial posts where they mention that K/D is a stat that some people look at and may quite frankly not give the game a chance if it isn't there. The point of this game is to be a MMO, and to be a true MMO, you need as many people as possible. I do believe there is a compromise.

You mention score and I believe that should be the ultimate prize. Leveling up has proven to be a key to any MMO and score is the way to do that....not a great K/D ratio. K/D can help you with that, as kills did in Planetside, but in my opinion where Planetside messed up is the ratio of score. Planetside wants to be a game for various different roles and calls for various different roles to truly be successful as an empire. K/D meant something to a few people in Planetside, but not most in my opinion. What did mean something was the score you mentioned. The problem was that the best way to score? Kills...especially later in the game.

Early on in the game I remember you'd get 5,000 points for nearly every base capture. Clearly that was wrong as an empty base shouldn't get you many points. I agree totally with that. Kills seemed to get you what, 100-200 points though, if that? To me that ratio makes sense. If capturing territory/bases is one of the main goals of the game, it should be rewarded with a ratio similar to that; 50 kills should give you the same score as capturing a heavily defended base. Now in Planetside, if you killed a Sunderer with four people in it, you could get upwards of 1800xp. The base you spend so much time capturing, the same one where you killed that sunderer, nets you 1200xp. That's basically saying you would have been better off not capping the base at all, rather waiting on those enemies to reload in a sunderer, hide, and kill them again and again. It doesn't make sense.

XP, or score, is whats going to drive everything, or it should be. Territory and bases need to ultimately be the driver of XP, by far. Support roles need to be a distanct second, followed closely by kills. Support roles should also have some kind of residual XP. Guys that spawn at your galaxy should get you a little XP, but then everything they do from then on out until they die (within a given time frame, say 10 mins maybe) should net you a percentage of that xp. If they kill five guys for 600 xp, you get 60xp. If they heal a guy for 10xp, you get 1xp. Sure that seems complicated and probably would be very hard to implement and is probably stretching it a bit, but if you can imagine 20 guys spawning at a galaxy, racking up 2000xp each.....40,000 xp, 10% is 4,000. Maybe that's high? I don't know what the ratio should be, but that's just an example. It rewards that galaxy driver, or that medic, or that engineer who isn't in there racking up kills.


Another issue I'd bring up while we're on the subject is defense vs offense. In Planetside I don't think they had the ratio right. I think defense should be worth four times what offense is to encourage it. So often its all about following the zerg rather than staying and defending, slowing down, or occupying the opposition to benefit your empire. Imagine defensive specialists who can be outnumbered 10 to 1 yet still deter the enemies because its what they do. It may not be a glorious role and at times boring and a headache, but they're rewarded for their efforts. If a kill on offense is 50, a kill on defense should be 200. Again, maybe that proves to be too much and encourages defense for everyone which would promote no movement at all....but I think offense will be natural in the game and defense needs more incentives. Maybe the ratio is 2:1. I don't know.


Here's a breakdown of how I see some scoring going:


Kill on offense: 100 points

Kill on defense: 200-400 points dependent on ratio outnumbered

Assist: 20 points

Full or Maximum base capture: 5,000 points

Minimum base capture: 1,000 points

Base resecure: 1,000 to 5,000 dependent on ratio outnumbered

Someone spawning at your galaxy: 100 points (same as a kill)

XP for someone who spawned at your galaxy within ten minutes: 10% of what they earn until their death

And so on with other support roles......In the scenario above, the galaxy driver has the potential to earn as much or more XP than the assault characters depending on their performance. They depend on him to get them there...he depends on them to succeed in the fight he brought them to.

I truly do believe this might be the most important debate issue that will make or break this game. The game is player driven, and if the scoring system is flawed, its going to drive players into a game that its not supposed to be. There has to be something that keeps driving people to play, and keeps driving them to play for years. I believe leveling is part of it. I believe K/D has its small part of it. I believe achievements is part of it, and being in an outfit you enjoy, and being able to play the role you want to play. I believe content updates are a huge part of it to keep the game fresh. All that being said, if the scoring system is messed up, the rest might not matter.

[duck]

I'm surprised Higby and no other developer wanted to comment on this particular thread (20+ pages btw), yet they are all over some pointless threads (looking at VIP tracker). Yes, they've been great with providing answers to our questions and that they look at our feedback to "improve" the game but if they are true to their word they should scrap this idea in its entirety. The HUD and guns look and shoot like CoD already, but KDR is such a **** idea for a game as large as Planetside 2.
They should at least keep KDR private for one's viewing and not public.

They should really ask themselves, are they trying to evolve the FPS genre or follow in the footsteps of CoD and BF3?

[Saintlycow]

That never works, its a PvP game, you need to encourage fighting eachother, kills need to be the primary method of advancement, if not people will simply avoid combat and rotate bases or something else equally lame...see WAR and Aion...in WAR people avoid fighting and rotate BOs between eahcother to get renown, in Aion everybody plays the one faction and fights the NPC mobs at the forts for GLORIOUS "PVP" GEAR.

I can totally see your point. If the points are unbalanced, then people would simply trade bases. Or play kill whore. Or destroy vehicles all day

Realistically, they need to distribute points so that they all give APPROXIMATELY the same amount based on effort. Capping a base should give out the points that killing X guys in that time would give.

EDIT: Thanks for the reply, SKYeXile and Aurmanite

[Fortress]

Killing will always be encouraged because it's pretty hard to take a base when your enemy is still shooting at you. Dying will always be discouraged because it's hard to take a base when you're dead. I really don't see how you can make kills not matter, or render killwhores irrelevant in a shooter game.

Now for on topic: Don't count deaths from out-of-combat TK's to reduce griefing. Tyvm.

[PrISM]

They aren't going to change the stat system, kill-streaks and whatever else the terrible modern day FPSs have. The MWs and BFs are what make the money and that's what SOE is trying to go after. Whatever those games have to attract players is what this game will have.

[DaddyTickles]

They aren't going to change the stat system, kill-streaks and whatever else the terrible modern day FPSs have. The MWs and BFs are what make the money and that's what SOE is trying to go after. Whatever those games have to attract players is what this game will have.

Exactly, a f2p mmo of any type relies on large participator figures. In order to get there, Higby is going to give new players familiar hooks to pull them in.

Better get used to it.

[Drakkonan]

The solution is simple. Allow the player to make these stats public or private.

In modern first-person-shooters, it's become commonplace to calculate and record an array of statistics, and stats such as these do occasionally prove useful, if for nothing more than benchmarking yourself. However, when they're made public, they're often made more important than they really should be by the community.

It's important to remember that making these stats public, and thus meaningful (it's inevitable), will discourage 'team-play' and promote the stat-whore mentality that's so prominent throughout the genre. I'd like to be a support-only player, but if I play that role, I'm likely going to have a very poor KDR. That doesn't mean I'll be a less effective player (in fact the opposite is true), but that's the impression the community will get. While that's our fault, as players, the developers can assist us in overcoming our tendencies to place too much importance in trivial stats for the sake of simplicity.

DICE was on the right track. While not allowing stats to be made private, they kept SPM as the main stat, and relegated KDR down to the bottom of battlelog stat profiles. That doesn't mean players no longer looked for it, but at least they made an attempt.

To be honest, I'm more worried about how they're going to balance support points. Will the only means to maintain a high SPM be to get a high number of kills, or will healing/resupplying award enough points to keep the support players competitive with the MAXes in terms of points? In early BF3 beta, heals/resupplies only awarded 10 points, and after spamming every thread I could find making light of the imbalance, the amount was eventually raised to 20/30(team).

I suppose another alternative would be to have the option of disabling stat tracking at character creation. Obviously, stats would have to be calculated and stored internally to award experience, but one of the joys of PS was not having to worry about maintaining stats at all.

[Cosmical]

Wow you guys have gone nuts over this. Lets not forget, all of this information will be recorded for balancing and development purposes anyway, so why should we not have access to it?

Think of it like BF3, kill to deaths are a means to an end. But you can still be the best player by just being there doing your job. A medic can outclass most kill heavy players just by healing.

Might be worth adding something like a broadcast when bases are captured, saying who the top players are for different reasons. healing, repairs, ammo, objectives. Then people will focus more on the fame of helping, than kill streaks.

[Malorn]

Exactly, a f2p mmo of any type relies on large participator figures. In order to get there, Higby is going to give new players familiar hooks to pull them in.

Better get used to it.

Death stat tracking is not a hook. It will neither attract nor deter anyone, and it will negatively impact the game.

Just because it was done in a successful game doesn't mean it's appropriate for another game. I would hope the PS2 devs are intelligent enough to think about things and not blindly add them to the game simply because some other game had the feature. From what we've seen of PS2 so far clearly they do think about things.

I'm hoping they give this one some real thought because the stats they make salient to players are the stats people will work to improve either consciously or subconsciously. It's the power of suggestion. Merely having something there is implying that it is important. Therefore they should emphasize things that truly are important for this game.

[StumpyTheOzzie]

I gave up at page 16. I've previously said my piece that I think every single iota of information should be tracked, right down to how many metres you've travelled in enemy SOIs and outside enemy SOIs.

I do agree that in a game where deaths and kills are not relevant to the outcome of the game they are basically meaningless but I like to know "stuff".

If somebody spawns from your gal and goes on to hack a door, you should get a "door hack assist"

Maybe we can keep the K/D thing in, but make it less relevant than team based objectives? 5 "score" points for an assist, 10 "score" points for a kill and a billion "score" points for a CC hack.

subject to balance.

[megamold]

Maybe we can keep the K/D thing in, but make it less relevant than team based objectives? 5 "score" points for an assist, 10 "score" points for a kill and a billion "score" points for a CC hack.

subject to balance.

this.

just because they have a tracker for kills and deaths, that doesnt mean that all scoring will be based upon this stat like it is in CoD.

i dont think its a helpfull stat to track but neither do i believe it will "ruin" the game, thats just adding drama for no reason.

and who ever said you cant have a positive K/D ratio and still be a great team player?

at the end of the day the people who will play this game like CoD will die quickly and not get many kills ( since they just do random shit ) while the team players will allways be in the face of the enemy taking bases wich will result in more kills and if you are any good a higher K/D ratio
its not the K/D ratio that changes the importance gameplay, its the gameplay that changes the importance of the K/D ratio

[Gandhi]

How XP is earned will be far more important than what stats are tracked. If people see they can earn much more XP helping their team than by protecting their kill streak they'll naturally gravitate toward teamwork and objectives.

Not all of them mind you, some will killwhore no matter what. But I don't care about them, I care about the ones who join the game without a clue what to expect and try to figure out the most important aspects based on what's emphasized to them as they play. If they join and see they can make the most XP by racking up kills, kill streaks and dominations then they'll assume that's the point of the game, and that's when the game goes down the shitter.

[FriendlyFire]

I think everyone forgot one important factor, this is Planetside 2.

No matter how much you hate Kill Whores, they will be on your side and the two other factions as well. The impact of their play style is going to be almost nil.

Think about it, they will be getting kills, in the areas you are trying to capture. You are not required to coach, teach or even provide tips to them, they will get kills. A great thing about getting kills in an FPS is, getting kills. If there is any impact on your style of play, it may be that there will be less targets for you to shoot, while you are in the same area as the Kill Whore.

This topic is full of people raging over CoD Kiddies, when this game will not resemble CoD in any way.

[Physed]

I previously mentioned that I'm against the prominently tracked killstreaks and K/D ratios, but I'd like to add one more thought:

The difference between PS and the flavor of the month FPS games is that PS is an MMO. Being an MMO, it has to focus on the community. WoW was built on communities, more specifically guilds, that kept players logging in for years. Therefore, the focus on PS's stat tracking should look like this:

1) The player's contribution to the empire, tracked as score/xp. (Just as it was in PS1)
2) This is further translated to outfit points. (Just as it was in PS1)
3) Each player's outfit points contribute to the overall score of the outfit (Just as it was in PS1)
4) Outfit score should be meaningful and used to purchase or unlock things for outfits that contribute to the empire. (Something that was unfortunately skipped in PS1)

Focus on the community, and the community will continue to play your game. Cater to the flavor of the month FPS teenagers, and you'll lose your whole playerbase when the next CoD comes out.

[icon]

Focus on the community, and the community will continue to play your game. Cater to the flavor of the month FPS teenagers, and you'll lose your whole playerbase when the next CoD comes out.

Bingo. Those kids will always want the hottest and latest game, and PS2 easily has the potential to still be the hottest game around even after the next CoD/BF release.

As I personally feel, PS1 is an MMO that focuses an RTS appeal and was implemented as an FPS. It was brilliant for its time and PS2 can continue that legacy, as long as, imo, they maintain that philosophy. Each time I re-watch the GDC videos I feel its just a run of the mill FPS in a large MMO environment map with not much in terms of RTS aspect. Hopefully, playing the beta will change my outlook on this, when we get to experience the day/night shifting, and can focus more on the global strategy of the game.

[FriendlyFire]

I would rather the Devs take a clear direction, than try to "cater" to anyone. The Devs clearly had problems addressing issues the player base brought up in PS1.

The game is going to be accessible to millions, not hundreds of thousands. Offer something that millions of people are going to want to play.

[megamold]

I would rather the Devs take a clear direction, than try to "cater" to anyone. The Devs clearly had problems addressing issues the player base brought up in PS1.

The game is going to be accessible to millions, not hundreds of thousands. Offer something that millions of people are going to want to play.

thats a bit contradictory isnt it?
to offer a game that millions of people want to play you need to try to cater to everyone, thats just the current climate in the gaming industry : user input, user customization, personalisation,....

i'm not saying thats a good thing per se but whatcha gunna do :shrug:

[FriendlyFire]

Clear direction, game play, user input, is what I want. Too much user input and not enough direction, and we get BFRs.

[megamold]

how i recall it we never had any choice on the whole BFR thing, that was just the dev team thinking up something and shoving it in our faces

i think the devs gave some insight on their long term goals for the game ( mostly in the older interviews )
the things being discussed on this forum right now are mostly the basics of how the game works

so far i'm seeing direction and input , the gameplay will be when beta comes :)

[Raymac]

No. There's a lengthy post at the beginning of this thread that details the root of the topic.

Yeah, Malorn. I already read it, and enjoyed it like I do all your posts. One of the premises of your stance is that playing with a focus on the K: D ratio (i.e. killwhoring) should be discouraged in Planetside. Believe it or not, I do have rudimentary reading comprehension skills.

I do find it a bit hypocritial that you are advocating supporting many other different types of gameplay, but singling out players that enjoy having a high K: D ratio as being "bad" for the game. I personally don't like that playstyle either, however, I like to see Planetside as the video game world's version of the Statue of Liberty. Bring us all different kinds of players and we will all have fun in our own ways in this massive open world.

[Malorn]

One of the premises of your stance is that playing with a focus on the K: D ratio (i.e. killwhoring) should be discouraged in Planetside..

Yes, K:D should be discouraged; no, the reason is not because I have anything against killwhoring.

I have issue with death tracking and K:D tracking discouraging people from taking risks. In a nutshell it encourages cowardice.

Has nothing to do with killwhores. I founded a killwhore outfit. I have nothing against killwhores. I'm far more concerned about the general population who looks at their character screen, sees deaths & K:D prominently displayed and either actively or passively get the message that those stats are important to success in Planetside, which they are not. That leads them to do activities which essentially minimize deaths. Minimizing deaths in games is easy - you don't take risks. You camp. You don't press forward. You don't move for objectives. You don't help others or do anything that makes you a target. Effectively you become a giant pussy, but hey, your K:D looks great so clearly you're successful at the game. I don't like things that encourage people to be pussies. I'd much prefer they reward someone for accomplishing an objective no matter how many times they die doing it, which encourages them to take objectives instead of encouraging them to not take risks.

It's a war game, there should be action. Stats that are promoted by the game should be stats that encourage people to take risks, capture territory and keep the game interesting and fresh.

If you're getting a message that this is some campaign against killwhores you're reading it wrong. What I just wrote in this post is the correct way to read my message.

[FriendlyFire]

snip

I think the point is, PlanetSide has always rewarded players for fighting over objectives. If you don't like someones play style or how they may view their stats, it isn't going to change PlanetSide. Players have to kill other players to get a K: D, they aren't killing wandering nomads in the middle of a desert.

Fighting over objectives will always reward the most points.

[Malorn]

I think the point is, PlanetSide has always rewarded players for fighting over objectives. If you don't like someones play style or how they may view their stats, it isn't going to change PlanetSide. Players have to kill other players to get a K: D, they aren't killing wandering nomads in the middle of a desert.

Fighting over objectives will always reward the most points.

This is not true. Not every kill contributes to an objective, and not every objective results in the most points. The Tower of Power game and Interfarms are good examples of that. In many cases the most points in PS1 was obtained by finding a good stalemate and milking the steady stream of infantry and vehicles for hours. No objectives achieved, but tons of points earned.

I'm not saying that wasn't fun - it often could be, but it was not a reward for going after objectives.

[Raymac]

If you're getting a message that this is some campaign against killwhores you're reading it wrong. What I just wrote in this post is the correct way to read my message.

Then either I am getting stuck on semantics, or perhaps my reading comprehension is even more pathetic than I thought. I see "killwhoring" as trying to maximize your K: D. So in order to do that, one would try to decrease their deaths as much as possible and only focus on the score THEY care about i.e. K/D. Or as you put it, play like a pussy.

So, the way I saw your post was "I don't have anything against killwhoring but playing like a killwhore is a pussy move". Judging from what you've said, I'm sure it wasn't your intent to rail on killwhoring, but in a way you kinda did.

As usual, I do agree with you that this style of gameplay is not the ideal way Planetside should be played, and there are ways to encourage the "correct' way to play Planetside like the ones you've stated. At the same time, you are really calling for a major paradigm shift in something many gamers already pay attention to. People will pay attention to their K/D, it's just some people will give it more weight than others and that is their perogative.

At the same time, I don't think there is anything wrong with the game being designed around giving more weight (like extra XP) to things like capturing territory instead of kills. We all know Planetside is so much more than a Team Deathmatch, so it's fine for the "score" to reflect that. I don't think you need to do away with tracking deaths to achieve that, though.

[Malorn]

Killwhoring - to whore kills...says nothing about deaths.

Who is the better killwhore - the killwhore who goes 18-0 in an hour, or the one who goes 80-25 over that same hour? What about the guy that went 25-30 in fifteen minutes? The death stat is meaningless. What matters is kills and accomplishments - things can change the battle.

100-120 guy -> 1.66 kills per minute, .83 KD
80-25 guy -> 1.33 kills per minute. 3.2 KD
18-0 guy -> 0.3 kills per minute. undefined KD

Who's really the best killwhore here? Who impacted the game more? Who helped their faction achieve victory more? The best way to really know that is what other things each player did, namely score contribution. Since support and objectives also net points that helps reflect not only who got the most kills, but also who made the largest contributions.

If these are the things that people are encouraged to improve -> Kills-per-minute and Score-per-minute, then they will go looking for conflict and strive to achieve those objectives.

Deaths and K:D...not significant at all. Counter-productive. Only encourages cowardice.

[FriendlyFire]

This is not true. Not every kill contributes to an objective, and not every objective results in the most points. The Tower of Power game and Interfarms are good examples of that. In many cases the most points in PS1 was obtained by finding a good stalemate and milking the steady stream of infantry and vehicles for hours. No objectives achieved, but tons of points earned.

I'm not saying that wasn't fun - it often could be, but it was not a reward for going after objectives.

I guess we can nit pick "objectives" for 10-12 pages now?

People play differently than you, but if they are in PlanetSide, they are fighting the enemy, and the enemy is normally in an area for a reason.

These stats have no impact on your play style and will not/won't ruin the game.

[Malorn]

I guess we can nit pick "objectives" for 10-12 pages now?

People play differently than you, but if they are in PlanetSide, they are fighting the enemy, and the enemy is normally in an area for a reason.

I don't see how your astute observation relates to the topic of this discussion.

[FriendlyFire]

I don't see how your astute observation relates to the topic of this discussion.

I guess we are done here?

[Malorn]

I guess we are done here?

Well you could elaborate more on your point, but if you want to drop out of the discussion that's up to you.

[EVILPIG]

I guess we are done here?

Nothing lasts forever.

[FriendlyFire]

Well you could elaborate more on your point, but if you want to drop out of the discussion that's up to you.

I am saying:

People will play in ways you will not like. (those players love K&D ratios)
Those people will be playing with you.
When those people are playing with you, they will kill players.
The way those players play the game, is in no way breaking the game.


and to expand further on the part you quoted:
When a player kills another player, it is normally for a reason (i.e. objective.) This doesn't mean the area/time has a giant stamp labeled "OBJECTIVE."

[Raymac]

Killwhoring - to whore kills...says nothing about deaths.
-snip-
Deaths and K:D...not significant at all. Counter-productive. Only encourages cowardice.

OK, so it was just a matter of semantics then. So for the sake of clarity, we'll call it the K/D whores. In any case, just replace what I said about "killwhores" and substitute "K/D whores".

Essentially, let people play the way they want to play. Through stats and XP you can encourage the more "correct" way to play i.e. giving more XP for mission completions and objective captures and give less XP for kills.

The bottom line really is, scoring kills AND deaths will not destroy the moral fiber of the game. I'm all for giving much more value to other "scores" but let the K/D whores have their fun too. Let's not exclude a certain type of player because we feel they are unworthy.

[FriendlyFire]

OK, so it was just a matter of semantics then. So for the sake of clarity, we'll call it the K/D whores. In any case, just replace what I said about "killwhores" and substitute "K/D whores".

Essentially, let people play the way they want to play. Through stats and XP you can encourage the more "correct" way to play i.e. giving more XP for mission completions and objective captures and give less XP for kills.

The bottom line really is, scoring kills AND deaths will not destroy the moral fiber of the game. I'm all for giving much more value to other "scores" but let the K/D whores have their fun too. Let's not exclude a certain type of player because we feel they are unworthy.

:clap::clap::clap:
Pretty much all of this.

[Malorn]

I am saying:

People will play in ways you will not like. (those players love K&D ratios)
Those people will be playing with you.
When those people are playing with you, they will kill players.
The way those players play the game, is in no way breaking the game.


and to expand further on the part you quoted:
When a player kills another player, it is normally for a reason (i.e. objective.) This doesn't mean the area/time has a giant stamp labeled "OBJECTIVE."

I dont' care what other players value as a stat, that's up to them.

I care about what stats the game elevates and makes salient to players, which will affect the behavior of the general population.

Currently Deaths and K:D are elevated by the game and made salient. I've made a compelling argument in this thread that this is bad, and many agree with it. People who object generally fall into three categories

1) People who want to track every stat and take offense when any stat is denied to them.

2) People who do not believe the problem is actually a problem. People didn't think the world was round either so not much to say here.

3) People who misunderstand the point of the thread and think its about countering killwhoring or not liking certain playstyles. It's not about that.



There's no making the folks in the second category happy, and I don' think they need to be made happy. The problem and solution would have no impact on them either way (although they may not like devs spending any time whatsoever on it).

The third category folks I think really are first category folks that are worried that I'm attacking their playstyle (I'm not, and I'll continue to assert that).

The solution that seems to be the best compromise that makes folks in the first category happy is the one where the game doesn't promote any stats, doesn't deny any stats, but lets players choose which stats are shown to them AND which stats are shown to others who view them.

Basically it's like merits from PS1 where there's a huge list of stats, and you as a player get to decide which of those stats get displayed for yourself and others.

Its a good solution that may have gotten diluted in this discussion. It was proposed by a few different folks throughout the thread, though I believe Eyeklops first proposed it.

[Malorn]

The bottom line really is, scoring kills AND deaths will not destroy the moral fiber of the game. I'm all for giving much more value to other "scores" but let the K/D whores have their fun too. Let's not exclude a certain type of player because we feel they are unworthy.

I feel like a broken record here. Its not about excluding a playstyle; it's about that playstyle being imposed on every player.

Not trying to exclude a certain type of player; but I absolutely don't want certain playstyles imposed on the general population. If you want to KD whore, great, go for it. That is no reason why it should be the primary stat that every player sees.

Read the compromise solution I detailed in my post above this one about players choosing the stats important to them like they chose Merits displayed in PS1. I think you'd like it.

[Aurmanite]

The main reason why some people feel like the thread has been derailed is because the OP's position flip-flops between "I'm not discouraging a playstyle." to "This playstyle is corwardly and should be discouraged."

People who have written thousands of words discussing this topic have had their views summed up in a single sentence, and in one case outright insulted and dismissed. That is condesending and unnecessary.

The thread is about stats, and which stats should display on the HUD while the gamer is playing. In most cases, there's no way to have these somewhat intangible and somewhat abstract actions represented by an onscreen popup. You cannot reward the heroic act of sacrificing your killstreak by charging down a hallway to buy your group more time. So unfortunately for the higher thinkers out there, you will have to deal with killstreaks and K/D information on your HUD.

No one in this thread is against giving players the ability to choose that stats they value.

The OP's score stat is fantastic.

There hasn't been one good reason to remove K/D tracking in this 20+ page thread.

[Malorn]

The main reason why some people feel like the thread has been derailed is because the OP's position flip-flops between "I'm not discouraging a playstyle." to "This playstyle is corwardly and should be discouraged."

I have not flip-flopped. I've been quite consistent. And I'll summarize it yet again.

The game currently encourages a specific playstyle by promoting deaths and K:D.

I want it to not encourage any specific playstyle beyond something that is universal to planetside, like Score.

I also happen to believe the playstyle being currently encouraged is particularly bad for the game.

I do not feel that playstyle should be excluded from the game.

I don't see how I could be any more clear or concise about that.


To once again be absolutely clear, I don't want anyone to not have their killwhore or whatever playstyle. But it should not be imposed on every player. If you want to just killwhore and not play for any objectives - great, go for it. That doesn't mean every player needs to be encouraged to do it.

The stat doesn't have to be in every player's face for you to enjoy your killwhore playstyle.

[Aurmanite]

The in game and website stat pages have to include kills/deaths/ratio. But I'm all for being able to change the HUD display to promote objective based gameplay. How would you solve the difficulty in having tactical gameplay displayed on the HUD? What sorts of mechanics can be created to give these abstract notions a visual representation?

[Eyeklops]

Basically it's like merits from PS1 where there's a huge list of stats, and you as a player get to decide which of those stats get displayed for yourself and others.

Its a good solution that may have gotten diluted in this discussion. It was proposed by a few different folks throughout the thread, though I believe Eyeklops first proposed it.

Thanks for the credit :)

[Malorn]

The in game and website stat pages have to include kills/deaths/ratio. But I'm all for being able to change the HUD display to promote objective based gameplay. How would you solve the difficulty in having tactical gameplay displayed on the HUD? What sorts of mechanics can be created to give these abstract notions a visual representation?

They don't have to include those things. They could include a set of stats that a player choses. It might always show somethign like "score" since its universal, but the rest of the stats, revives, captures, territories, kills, deaths, defenses, etc shoudl be in a big menu of choices that the game is always tracking.

You as a player could view these for yourself, and then select a subset that appear on your character screen and that appear on the website.

The ones other people see are the ones you chose to make visible.

The ones that appear on your tracking HUD (if they exist there) are the ones you chose to put there.


You decide what you care about. You decide what accomplishments are advertised to others who view your profile.

There are no defaults. If you haven't chosen a stat, there's a button that says "Choose a favorite stat" - you click it and it brings up that big menu. Select one from menu, now it displays. If you never set your defaults, you never see any stats (and nobody else does either).

Simple solution that gives the player complete control.

No playstyle is encouraged that the player didn't choose himself.

I don't see how anyone could really argue with that. It's a good design. Maybe this thread has gotten too long and diluted for that message to come clear. I'll extract out this design and put it in the idea vault or something like that.

[Malorn]

Thanks for the credit :)

Credit where credit is due - now help me sell it! :)

[HalfManHalfGod]

Great post Malorn I 100% agree. K/D does promote 1 type of game play and I've seen first hand how it affects game play. I think you've nailed the problem but what are some of the design ideas that we can come up with to solve it and make most people happy.

1 idea I've had is to display stats on the character selection screen with relevant stats to that particular class. None of the stats on character selection screen would display deaths. I think it should be provided but in some sort of overall stats page buried with other ancillary stats.

MAX/HA/LA would have your basic kill stats but much deeper. Kills/min,assists, total kills, headshots, body, arm shots, vehicles destroyed, grenade kills, total damage done etc...

Medic would have, revives, healing done, maybe some way of tracking stats of people who got revived by you giving you some sort of credit for reviving that person who otherwise would be hitting the respawn button.

Engineer: repairs, turrets deployed, kills of not only you using the turrets but of other people using "your" turrets, mines deployed.

Infiltrator: Cloaked kills, assassinations, knife kills, sniper kills, headspots, bases hacked

I think this would go a along way in promoting each classes abilities.

[Duddy]

"snipped"

2) People who do not believe the problem is actually a problem. People didn't think the world was round either so not much to say here.

There's no making the folks in the second category happy, and I don' think they need to be made happy. The problem and solution would have no impact on them either way (although they may not like devs spending any time whatsoever on it).

"snipped"

Malorn, I know you to be an intelligent guy, but was that really necessary?

It's quite clear that, as you state, these stats may have an impact on play. But I'm not wholly convinced it is as dire as you lead us to believe.

I think this comes down to perception, allow me to explain.

How does each player perceive having fun? For some it is global domination, for some it is playing efficiently and effectively as a team, some value individualistic performance and some just want to dick about.

Anyway you look at it, each player will determine how they wish to play based upon what they perceive to be fun. Now while some may be influenced by numbers or ratios, this isn't going to be the case for everyone.

You'd be right to point out that this is only conjecture, and I freely admit I don't have any numbers to back that up. But you can't honestly tell me you have information to show us that stats such as K/D were the key influencing factor as opposed to a players own preconceptions and, as a result, perceptions?

So hide the K/D by default, sure, I agree with you here and would rather see a more meaningful statistic. Preferably, as has been stated, the option to choose what is shown. Heck plenty of player options, in all facets of the game, should be the paradigm.

But honestly, it seems you want to change human nature by changing what stats are shown to a player. That would be a bold feat for any person.

TL;DR - I agree and support concept from OP, just remember some people enjoy that stuff and should be allowed to do so.

[Malorn]

This discussion has had some great ideas, one of which I discuss on this very page.

Right here (http://www.planetside-universe.com/forums/showpost.php?p=651992&postcount=324).

Some asked how we could fix it, well we can fix it without completely removing K/D. See link above.

Take a page from PS1, take a page from Eyeclops. Put 'em together and I think we have a pretty darn good solution that would make even me happy. Then again I'm fairly easy to please.

But what I bring up here isn't me high on drugs, it's real shit yo.

[DownloadFailed]

I like the way you think, Malorn. I typically don't like seeing K/D ratios anywhere, least of all on myself or that one really good guy at the top of the enemy leaderboard. Honestly, one of the reasons I stopped playing call of duty (besides the fact that it's extremely repetitive, the community sucks, and I just sucked at it) was seeing my deaths pile up past my kills. It may not sound like much, but this really dissuaded me from playing the game anymore. I don't like to see how badly I've done in ONE aspect of the game, even when I've done well in other aspects like playing the objective. The only thing CoD players really look at when determining the skill of a player is their K/D ratio, which shouldn't be. A player's worth should be measured by what they do for their team first and what they do for themselves second.

So I wholeheartedly agree: Either remove deaths as a stat altogether, or tuck it away as a much less important stat. Let me choose to never look at it if I want it that way.

Score is also such a good medium to work in because it only accumulates. There's no negative to gaining score, and doing things that don't promote killing people will still add to it (as you have already stated many times) so making that the primary stat is, in my humble opinion, the best course of action.

[Baneblade]

I agree with the OP, with one exception. Mowing stats MUST be recorded. :lol:

[vVRedOctoberVv]

Well, in a lot of ways, I see where Malorn is coming from, and I agree with many of the principles he is presenting. On the other hand, I like to be able to see ALL my stats, as a means of judging my progress.

Example, I started playing PS1 with a 1:15+ K/D. Now it's more like 1:2 or 1:1 (much better).

Although stats encourage both bad and good behavior, I'm afraid there is nothing to be done on this matter. Douchebags are going to be douchebags, regardless. Also, many, MANY people would reject a game without stats, because they would say 'what's the point?'. A "completionist" culture has already been established.

A good example that I ran into is CoD:MW (I never played UT or Quake to any extent, CoD was my first online "shooter" really) where every 100 levels you can reset, get a medal, lose all your guns and start all over again. Me, I hit 100 the first time and stopped, because I didn't want to lose my guns, I was there to play the game, not to acquire achievements or tags on my name. Many people, however, reset. I'm not saying this is good or bad, my point is that the emphasis is on stats, and shiney things, etc.

If the only "progression" the game offered was feeling good about yourself for helping your faction... Most people have a very thin form of loyalty in REAL life, much less a virtual world. And simply replacing K/D with Score would not change anything, as others have mentioned. People inclined to farming/poor play are going to do it, no matter what. Just like hackers and cheats are gonna hack and cheat, no matter what.

It's a paradox, really, with no way out.

[SkilletSoup]

KDR needs to stay in the game. I use it as a way of measuring my OWN personal progress using MY own style of play. KDR on leader boards are meaningless as you know not the style of play, that includes farming and cheats. This game will need all the stats it can get since there is no end game per say.

[Disillusioned]

The best way to combat this will be ignoring the eventual "look at my beast k/d" threads that will be created daily. As a long time Battlefield player it always amazed me the things people would do to artificially boost their stats- 300 games of rush played, 1 mcom destroyed and such.

Most of the people who will play only for their stats and generally do nothing team oriented are typically attention whores...pay them no mind and they'll eventually disappear. Hopefully.

[StumpyTheOzzie]

Totally agree with OP. Deaths is irrelevant in this game. If there were ticket counters like other games with a set number of respawns for the empire, then it would be important.

Since your personal resources is really the only limiting factor in this game I really don't think that kills or deaths have any purpose.

Especially since I'm a support player who rarely carries a weapon in PS1, it's ultra useless for me. I'd much rather rate myself on armour repaired or "people spawned from my galaxy" or some other metric. I'm doing much more important work for the empire by providing a forward base of operations (short supply lines = victory) than being a shooter.

Having said that, if the shooty types want it, keep it in but I hope sensible Outfit leaders can have access to other stats during my application process.

[Rockstone]

I agree with OP, from beginning to end. Lets enter the 21st century, with style! :D

[Khellendros]

I disagree with removing any stats. We need MORE stats, not less. Kills, deaths, captures, assists, heals, rezzes, score, and anything and everything else the devs can think of.

[Malorn]

Wow that was one hell of a necro....


You can find it, but it doesn't have to be prominent in the game. It can be buried somewhere. It doesn't have to have a leaderboard promoting it either.

Information is OK, but which information is prominent must be carefully considered.

[StumpyTheOzzie]

kilometres flown, galaxies deployed, spawns from said gals, km driven in each of the vehicles, shots fired, shots hit, headshots, and a million other things but especially time played,so that you can measure how active that player is.

[Goldeh]

I like what Malron says

You have my support.

[IceyCold]

I wouldn't say remove K/D so much as add a support point tally as well.

Support points gathered from revives and heals, as well as vehicles repaired / destroyed and Deployables set.

I want to see a lot of stats, so when I see a player with a 1/5 K/D and then look below it I see that he also has 300 revives a day and 6000 HP healed; now I know he's not a bad player he's just a really fucking good medic.

[BuzzCutPsycho]

Stats Promoted by the game prime player behavior

The study of priming teaches us that passive stimuli can shape our behavior. Things like which stats appear on your character sheet will prime players to improve them, even subconsciously. For example, if you constantly reinforce that "captures" are important in the game, and put capture stats front-and center on the stats and have the default leaderboard show captures then you will see a change in player behavior as they are subconsciously primed to play for captures.

(More on priming: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priming_%28psychology%29)

The good side of this is that the developers can significantly and subtly influence the behavior of players by carefully choosing the stats which are promoted. The bad side of this is that if they don't carefully choose them with the understanding that their choices will affect player behavior then they can introduce ruinous game-play.

K/D is Ruinous

The primary motivation for this post is to highlight K/D, which is a particularly ruinous stat (which according to videos) is currently being promoted by PlanetSide 2. The gaming world has a terrible culture precedent where the barometer of player skill is by default kills-per-death. Try this trick at home - play a round of BF3 or just ask another BF3 player how well he did. The vast majority of the time players will read their K-D stat. They will rarely read their score, and almost never cite whether their team won or lost. Years of early session shooters have erroneously trained us that the K/D stat is important. Some people think it needs to be present. It does not, and the game will be better off without it.

The danger K/D poses for PlanetSide 2 is that it discourages risk-taking which leads to derisive game-play. Taking risks increases your chances of incrementing the death stat, which sends the K/D in the wrong direction. Taking objectives, helping other players, being the first man to assault a defended position - these are all behaviors that are discouraged by the promotion of K/D. This is one reason many players will resort to being relatively useless and sit back and snipe so they can preserve their stats rather than assault a well-defended position. If it's a good farm they will have no interest at all in advancing objectives, preferring instead to sit back and rack up stats.

If the "death" stat were not shown on a scoreboard or leader-board then you would see significantly more teamwork and objective-based play in PlanetSide 2. It is as simple as this - when there is no perceived penalty for taking risks you will see more risk taking. Risk taking is good in games and especially so in a teamwork environment to keep the game from stagnating. The only thing K/D teaches players is that they should avoid risks. It is a selfish stat which when promoted leads to poor game-play and derisive player behavior.

Developers have a huge opportunity

The developers of PlanetSide 2 have an opportunity to leverage the priming to influence the game by promoting stats that encourage the behaviors they want to see in game. But choosing any simple stats is meaningless and squanders this opportunity. The best stat for developers to promote is score because it is abstract, defined by the developers, and they can directly control what influences it. Simple stats like kills, captures, and K/D cannot be influenced; they are crisply defined constructs. Score is malleable. For example, if the devs which to encourage more captures, they can increase the score value of a capture. If they want to encourage more kill streaks, then they can increase the kill streak score bonus. If they want to encourage more ammo dropping by engineers they can add score for kill assists from people who were recently given ammo, and/or the score value when ammo is received.

Score is a universal stat that is defined by the developers and can therefore be controlled by the developers. It is a tremendous opportunity not only to create a universal calibration of how effective a PlanetSide 2 player is, but it also allows the developers to change the impact each action has on it. Additionally, the "death" stat is naturally factored into score - dead players don't score points. Time spent returning to a combat zone is time not earning score, so naturally dying less can be one way to improve one's score. Playing with medics and utilizing squad spawn and teamwork is a way to minimize these effects and so score takes that into account also. It's an elegant solution.

Other interesting stats could be derived from score, such as showing players where their score contribution originates, be it kills, revives, captures, etc. You could classify them, have pretty color charts, and even bring in leader-boards based on categories of score gain, from support, kills/assists, vehicles, objectives, etc. Who are the players with the highest objective-related scores? Who are the players with the highest kill-related scores, be it direct kills, head-shots, streaks, assists, etc? The possibilities are rich here for PlanetSide 2 to influence what players perceive as important and aggregate many similar types of game-play together.

Recommendation

Deaths as a stat need to be gutted from the game. It is a negative thing that discourages risk taking; just get rid of it. With it goes K/D, and in its place a universal developer-controlled stat can exist.

The best stat to promote is Score/Minute. The /minute part factors in playtime so casual players and hardcore players are on relatively equal footing in terms of making the leader-board. It becomes a fair comparison. It also becomes a measure of efficiency; simply playing a lot and racking up score isn't enough to dominate a leader-board. Players should be encouraged to be productive which is precisely what score/min achieves.

Please understand the power that stats have on player behavior. It isn't simply information; it influences the way the game is played. Don't blindly follow tradition and squander an opportunity to set the tone and influence player behavior in PlanetSide 2.

[moosepoop]

there is a positive aspect: outfits can evaluate the fighting abilities of their members. then you can sort the members into different squads for different purposes acccording to their abilities.

for example you can group the outfit members with the highest k/d into an elite squad as vanguard/flankers, while grouping weaker members into your main force.



you can place outfit members with highest acuracy in the back while equipping low acuracy members into a close quarters combat squad.

[Buggsy]

Absolutely. Dittos OP.

I disagree with removing any stats. We need MORE stats, not less. Kills, deaths, captures, assists, heals, rezzes, score, and anything and everything else the devs can think of.

Devs shouldn't be wasting their time with stats at all. The point of MMOFPS is to win the game, not farm points like World of Warcraft.

[Blackwolf]

Plus K: D ratio is such a ubiquitous tracking stat that it is now as common as ammo. It's a standard feature at this point. I do like the idea of tracking other stats as well and letting the community give more weight to those other stats.

I like where this thought is going.

Provide more then just the K/D like healing, repair, revivals, vehicle kills (tracked by individual vehicles), vehicle losses.

PS1 included a break down on pretty much everything you did and put it into a merit system that allowed you to wear your merits with pride even if it was damn near impossible to tell who had what merits on their shoulders at first glance. Their mistake was that they started tying in-game rewards like certain vehicle variants and -cough- vehicles -cough- to earning merits. That was what the certification system was for, and should never have been stepped over.

Going for those merits was actually fun, even if the majority of them involved killing an enemy. The streaks were challenging most of the time and pride was reward enough.

[Buggsy]

KDR needs to stay in the game. I use it as a way of measuring my OWN personal progress using MY own style of play. KDR on leader boards are meaningless as you know not the style of play, that includes farming and cheats. This game will need all the stats it can get since there is no end game per say.

My own personal progress is, "Am I having fun?"

[Landtank]

My own personal progress is, "Am I having fun?"

Brings up the idea that everyone has different views of their own personal progress.

[Plunkies]

If the game records and displays deaths, even if I'm the only one that sees them, I will work toward eliminating deaths. I'm not entirely sure why, but I will feel compelled to do so and it most certainly will be at the expense of teamplay at times. And even worse, sometimes I'll want to mess around or try something new but will feel like I shouldn't, which is a shame.

I hope they don't have death stats. It makes the game more fun and helps newer or less skilled players not feel awful about their stats. Starcraft 2 actually removed losses from any player not in the highest leagues and I think it's one of the smartest things they could have done to encourage laddering and to make it less stressful and more enjoyable.

Either way I'll still hate dying, but if they make each individual death a permanent blemish to my stats then I will adjust my play accordingly and play more selfish. Maybe it's stupid but it's true. If the game wants me to not care about deaths then the game had better not give me a reason to do so.

[vVRedOctoberVv]

Enclave emphasises good points, I must admit. I think, ultimately, elimination of most stats would probably be beneficial (it would be interesting to see someone try it, just to see how it worked out). An interesting social experiment, and it's true that what's waved in their face as "important" is what they'll tend to think is important.

I doubt they will ever implement such things, however. They said explicitly too many times they want the CoD kiddies, etc, and they will be greatly dissatisfied without their stats, on average.


We'll see, though.

[sylphaen]

My own personal progress is, "Am I having fun?"

I'd agree that fun is what makes the interest of a game but check out the old "Planetside needs an eng-game condition" threads... Fun is not enough for most anymore.

IMO, BuzzCut has it right that K/min would be a much better solution for killwhores to compare who does his job best. And to be really hardcore, I would even add K/min/average-resources-used-per-spawn.

The guy who kills the most guys in the least time with the least resources should get a medal. Dying slows you down so it's a given that Deaths are implicitly included in such a stat.

Of course, this would only be a killwhore prime stat but nothing a support player should care about: that would be "score".

[Drakkonan]

Stats Promoted by the game prime player behavior


Recommendation

Deaths as a stat need to be gutted from the game. It is a negative thing that discourages risk taking; just get rid of it. With it goes K/D, and in its place a universal developer-controlled stat can exist.

The best stat to promote is Score/Minute. The /minute part factors in playtime so casual players and hardcore players are on relatively equal footing in terms of making the leader-board. It becomes a fair comparison. It also becomes a measure of efficiency; simply playing a lot and racking up score isn't enough to dominate a leader-board. Players should be encouraged to be productive which is precisely what score/min achieves.

Please understand the power that stats have on player behavior. It isn't simply information; it influences the way the game is played. Don't blindly follow tradition and squander an opportunity to set the tone and influence player behavior in PlanetSide 2.


/minute was the worst thing to happen to Battlefield. It can be argued a relevent stat in a round-based game like Battlefield, but I shouldn't have to explain why it goes against all that Planetside was, and Planetside 2 should be. I'd rather they keep deaths as a stat then add a time factor.

I feel I'm reiterating myself, but the solution is simple:
-Allow players to hide their stats from the public/outfit/friends/all
-Get rid of the death stat completely
-Add a stat incorporating support points

If we're gong to have stats, a medic who only heals and revives and has a KDR or 0 should have stats that show that he's actually an effective player despite having 9000 deaths and no kills. Granted, this is an extreme case, but they're (Higby) all about "play the game the way you want". Well, the way stats are right now prevent this type of play style from being relevant.

[moosepoop]

we can just remove the death count and keep the kill count. and for support class use a support score system.

[avpmaster]

we can just remove the death count and keep the kill count. and for support class use a support score system.

nice bump + restatement of what op said

[Malorn]

If the game records and displays deaths, even if I'm the only one that sees them, I will work toward eliminating deaths. I'm not entirely sure why, but I will feel compelled to do so and it most certainly will be at the expense of teamplay at times. And even worse, sometimes I'll want to mess around or try something new but will feel like I shouldn't, which is a shame.

I hope they don't have death stats. It makes the game more fun and helps newer or less skilled players not feel awful about their stats. Starcraft 2 actually removed losses from any player not in the highest leagues and I think it's one of the smartest things they could have done to encourage laddering and to make it less stressful and more enjoyable.

Either way I'll still hate dying, but if they make each individual death a permanent blemish to my stats then I will adjust my play accordingly and play more selfish. Maybe it's stupid but it's true. If the game wants me to not care about deaths then the game had better not give me a reason to do so.

This is a good illustration of the priming that Buzz talked about. It's subconscious, and it permeates many aspects of gaming without you necessarily being aware of it. It's there, it's regarded as important, and therefore there is a compulsion to reduce it at the expense of other activities.

Its mere presence is destructive.

[Blackwolf]

This is a good illustration of the priming that Buzz talked about. It's subconscious, and it permeates many aspects of gaming without you necessarily being aware of it. It's there, it's regarded as important, and therefore there is a compulsion to reduce it at the expense of other activities.

Its mere presence is destructive.

I thought that might be the case, but tbh the K/D never stopped me from doing what was best for squad/team/empire. I revived people in mid firefight, dropped gens, killed spawns, and generally followed outfit orders without hesitation. I paid attention to it of course, but it helped me determine how well my head was in the game and how well I did before I signed out.

Yes the K/D stats encouraged farming and kill whores, and created a false sense of skill to boot (how hard is it to rack up kills bombing for a liberator?), but it also encouraged self preservation and a need to improve yourself as a player as well as a team member.

I don't think score would be a better solution. You might as well try and find a better system to replace the economy, because that's exactly the scale of a task you are facing here. Anything you replace currency with will develop the same standard habits of attempting to get more of what you need and less of what you don't need. And this will always create situations where people can and will "farm" whatever they need large quantities of.

Regardless of the system you put in, people will attempt to exploit it. Better to keep a simple system in like the one PS1 had that encouraged improved use of specific elements of the game (engineering and medic as well as ways to kill the enemy). Making more difficult goals will make the system more fun to improve and interact with, but will still encourage the same lame tricks and tactics.

And the largest contributor to spawn camping and generator avoidance were the morons who wanted "a good fight" and didn't want it "ruined" by jerks who used good tactics to end a situation in victory rather then potential defeat.

[Envenom]

I absolutely love stat tracking and K/D, so speak for yourself.

[moosepoop]

in small scale fps the psychological effects from k/d isnt that big, but planetside requires coordination, and sometimes sacrifice. if different squads and platoons cannot effectively coordinate then there is no strategy and tactics, and the quality of gameplay will suffer.


lots of times in ps1 indoor fights people are literally paralyzed, hiding in third person mode behind walls because they did not want to lower their k/d, and the two sides just stay behind doors in a stalemate.


in ps1, k/d fetish causes people to go lone wolf sniping, tanks and aircraft leave the battle hunting lone infantry, etc.

[Slide Surveyor]

I absolutely love stat tracking and K/D, so speak for yourself.Stat tracking is fine, but death tracking just isn't meant for a game like this.

[Rivenshield]

I like having *access* to stats. I'm always curious about how well I did or how well my empire did, the staggering number of times that I've died, etc. I dislike having them shoved into my face and having them made the focus of gameplay -- the whole idea of XP bonuses for killstreaks, for instance.

Those features belong in tournament-style games. They're a SUBSTITUTE for persistence. I want the people around me to be thinking about the objective, and it shouldn't be their goddam K/D ratio.

[Blackwolf]

in small scale fps the psychological effects from k/d isnt that big, but planetside requires coordination, and sometimes sacrifice. if different squads and platoons cannot effectively coordinate then there is no strategy and tactics, and the quality of gameplay will suffer.


lots of times in ps1 indoor fights people are literally paralyzed, hiding in third person mode behind walls because they did not want to lower their k/d, and the two sides just stay behind doors in a stalemate.


in ps1, k/d fetish causes people to go lone wolf sniping, tanks and aircraft leave the battle hunting lone infantry, etc.

I have never seen this happen. And you are removing the players right to make those kinds of choices of their own accord. And it's a game, there will always be yahoos charging blindly into the fray with nary a care in the world. Did I use that word right?

No matter what you do or how you do it, self preservation will be there to some degree or another. No one wants to die even in a game, and removing that death counter won't change this mentality at all. Having it gives them the ability to gauge their performance and attempt to improve themselves.

[Mythoclast]

Hey hey hey, maybe you might be fine with not having deaths tracked but I am not. I don't mind if they aren't public but I wanna see as many of my stats as they can track. And deaths do matter. KDR even matters. With that said, a 1:1 KDR or higher is NOT necessarily what to strive for.

If you are sniping or something similarly oriented on mostly killing or suppressing enemies, yes, your KDR should be higher. If you are piloting a drop ship or are storming an objective, it still matters but it means that a lower KDR doesn't mean you are doing worse necessarily. Basically I am saying if you are doing something like sniping maybe a good KDR is 2:1 but if you are doing something inherently more dangerous maybe a KDR or .25:1 is still ok.

Stats should definitely have the option to be viewed as a whole or per class.

[Plunkies]

/minute was the worst thing to happen to Battlefield. It can be argued a relevent stat in a round-based game like Battlefield, but I shouldn't have to explain why it goes against all that Planetside was, and Planetside 2 should be. I'd rather they keep deaths as a stat then add a time factor.

I feel I'm reiterating myself, but the solution is simple:
-Allow players to hide their stats from the public/outfit/friends/all
-Get rid of the death stat completely
-Add a stat incorporating support points

If we're gong to have stats, a medic who only heals and revives and has a KDR or 0 should have stats that show that he's actually an effective player despite having 9000 deaths and no kills. Granted, this is an extreme case, but they're (Higby) all about "play the game the way you want". Well, the way stats are right now prevent this type of play style from being relevant.

I agree that /minute stats are also bad. Any stat that acts as a punishment and influences you to do something that you might not otherwise want to do is bad. A per minute stat punishes you for every second you're not in serious mode. If you're goofing around with a buddy having fun or if you're trying out a new tactic, you're actively being punished by that stat every minute. Why should the game be punishing you for having fun and trying new things?

[moosepoop]

I don't mind if they aren't public but I wanna see as many of my stats as they can track.

you are right. if you can hide your death count but still keep score to yourself to see your performance, that would be a good idea also.

[GhettoPrince]

Some people care about stats, most people don't give a fuck, if your the kind of guy who unironically says "peep my stats, bro", then you can show off how much better you are at playing video games. If you don't give a fuck you can just ignore them. You aren't being punished, it's just a game , it's entertainment, it should not be a big deal for anyone.

[moosepoop]

Some people care about stats, most people don't give a fuck, if your the kind of guy who unironically says "peep my stats, bro", then you can show off how much better you are at playing video games. If you don't give a fuck you can just ignore them. You aren't being punished, it's just a game , it's entertainment, it should not be a big deal for anyone.

its not just fun. k/d also has a social aspect.

[Mythoclast]

you are right. if you can hide your death count but still keep score to yourself to see your performance, that would be a good idea also.

It would be very helpful. If I am messing around with new equipment it would be nice to track changes in my various stats and see how big of a difference changing stuff around makes.

[DownloadFailed]

I thought that might be the case, but tbh the K/D never stopped me from doing what was best for squad/team/empire. I revived people in mid firefight, dropped gens, killed spawns, and generally followed outfit orders without hesitation. I paid attention to it of course, but it helped me determine how well my head was in the game and how well I did before I signed out.


If I understand correctly, K/D wasn't introduced to PS1 until some time after its release. Now, you, being a PS1 vet, learned through experience the importance of teamwork, playing the objective, and playing support roles before KDR came into the game. No doubt, if KDR is added in as a focused stat in PS2, many PS1 vets won't care about the stat, much like you. However, as has been stated previously in the thread, the PS2 devs are looking to draw in a larger FPS crowd, including CoD players and players of games that are highly KDR focused. These players will be focusing on the KDR as their primary source of player-skill-measurement. This is something that we don't want. The problem isn't with you or with previous PS1 players or with people that play in teams because they understand the importance of teamwork. The problem is with the inevitable influx of new players that will want this stat and will use it as their proverbial Bible. This can be avoided by not directly displaying death on a player's in-game score or on a player's statistics page on the PS2 website. By taking focus away from KDR that encourages selfish play and putting it on a measurement like score, something that measures all positive actions in-game, players will be measured by their true worth and not by how many people they've wasted.

[sameer]

When the game gets boring, stats keep me going. This game seems like it will get boring quick, so I hope to keep going with stats.

[Plunkies]

Some people care about stats, most people don't give a fuck, if your the kind of guy who unironically says "peep my stats, bro", then you can show off how much better you are at playing video games. If you don't give a fuck you can just ignore them. You aren't being punished, it's just a game , it's entertainment, it should not be a big deal for anyone.

You completely miss the point. This issue isn't caring about stats and not caring about stats. The issue is stats influencing a type of behavior that otherwise would not exist if those stats were not there.

Stats GREATLY influence play style whether you like it or not. In Tribes, the objective is to capture the flag. What do people do in Tribes? They fight over the god damn generator. Why? Because you get more points for it. The STATS tell them that fighting over the generator is the best thing to do so they do it, even if they aren't consciously aware that they're being influenced.

[Malorn]

You completely miss the point. This issue isn't caring about stats and not caring about stats. The issue is stats influencing a type of behavior that otherwise would not exist if those stats were not there.

Stats GREATLY influence play style whether you like it or not. In Tribes, the objective is to capture the flag. What do people do in Tribes? They fight over the god damn generator. Why? Because you get more points for it. The STATS tell them that fighting over the generator is the best thing to do so they do it, even if they aren't consciously aware that they're being influenced.

Right on the money.

[Mythoclast]

You completely miss the point. This issue isn't caring about stats and not caring about stats. The issue is stats influencing a type of behavior that otherwise would not exist if those stats were not there.

Stats GREATLY influence play style whether you like it or not. In Tribes, the objective is to capture the flag. What do people do in Tribes? They fight over the god damn generator. Why? Because you get more points for it. The STATS tell them that fighting over the generator is the best thing to do so they do it, even if they aren't consciously aware that they're being influenced.

Exactly. The emphasis can be spread evenly among stats like healing done rather than just bolding and italicizing KDR and saying "LOOK HERE KDR". That doesn't mean removing deaths from the stat page.

[Blackwolf]

If I understand correctly, K/D wasn't introduced to PS1 until some time after its release.

What are you a effing mind reader? Can you learn all that by your silly little self based on text on a screen?

Don't put words in my mouth. It really is annoying.

K/D is something you learned to manage on your own. Whether you decide to be a killwhore or figure out how to balance it in your own time is up to you. I'm against removing the stat because I think it promotes self improvement. Being part of an outfit makes you count yourself as a valued asset more then numbers on the lower left of your screen.

But you want to remove those numbers in some weak attempt at promoting an optional course of action in a game. Without considering the desires of others.

[Plunkies]

Exactly. The emphasis can be spread evenly among stats like healing done rather than just bolding and italicizing KDR and saying "LOOK HERE KDR". That doesn't mean removing deaths from the stat page.

The problem with deaths is that they are bad while simultaneously unimportant. Placing them on a stat page permanently results in a negative reinforcement for something that is not important enough to warrant that negative reinforcement in a team game like this. It encourages play geared toward avoiding deaths while the game itself is not designed for that playstyle and does not benefit from it. A non-deathmatch, team-based game should not have deaths shown. Ever. You can not show deaths and while also encouraging unselfish, TEAM play.

[Drakkonan]

Are the death stat apologists even reading the thread?

To be honest, I think the game designers just don't care. How many changes have we seen to the game so far based on debates within the community? The removal of the kill-cam, but what else?

I hate playing betas because I like everything to be finished and fresh at the same time, but I might have to apply for this one because it's looking like the only avenue to get game design issues fixed (stats, seat-swapping etc...) will be /bugreport.

[Mythoclast]

The problem with deaths is that they are bad while simultaneously unimportant. Placing them on a stat page permanently results in a negative reinforcement for something that is not important enough to warrant that negative reinforcement in a team game like this. It encourages play geared toward avoiding deaths while the game itself is not designed for that playstyle and does not benefit from it. A non-deathmatch, team-based game should not have deaths shown. Ever. You can not show deaths and while also encouraging unselfish, TEAM play.

By that logic not showing deaths would make players completely not recognize the importance of being cautious when the situation calls for it. Avoiding death is not more important than taking objectives but it IS important. People won't jump in front of bombs if you remove the death stat and they won't run from flies if you leave it in.

Also, whether or not their is a death stat there will be kill whores. Anyone dumb enough to not realize that they need to work as a team and sometimes that means dying and not getting kills is not going to care if you remove the death stat.

[vVRedOctoberVv]

Shock harnesses, goddammit! I've said it before, and I'll say it again! We need SHOCK HARNESSES FOR ALL SHOOTERS!!!!111

Every bang should be followed by a zap, somewhere in the world :)

[TAA]

If you provide limited stats people will:

Complain and in many cases not get the satisfaction they want from the game.
Still do whatever they can to maximize their stats by playing unnaturally.


Brink had no tracked kdr. There were endless complaints from players to have it put in. I thought it was a good idea at the time, but no longer. I still saw way too many people ignore the objective and go after kills instead of doing their job. Not having those stats turns off players who crave them in games.

I am now of the opposite mindset. I say give information overload to the players. Let them obsess all they want over their stats - it keeps them obsessed about the product.


The more stats the better IMO. I want to know what my hit percentage is with each weapon, what my headshot percentage is with each weapon, kills, deaths, points, points per minute, objectives captured/defended, vehicles killed, people healed, people transported, repairs, squad spawns, everything.

I want to see how those values change over time so I also want graphs for everything. I want to use those graphs to fine tune my performance with individual weapons and attachments.

I also want death heat maps for every area in the game showing both where I die most often and where most people tend to die in general. I want to be able to filter those heat maps for day/night conditions. I want to see stats breaking down what weapons or vehicles kill me most often, and I want to be able to filter each weapon that kills me on my heat maps too.

Hell I even want to see stats showing me where I am most likely to be hit on my model to tell me if I have a bias to getting shot from the left or the right side.

Give me everything. The more information the better.

[Plunkies]

What are you a effing mind reader? Can you learn all that by your silly little self based on text on a screen?

Don't put words in my mouth. It really is annoying.

K/D is something you learned to manage on your own. Whether you decide to be a killwhore or figure out how to balance it in your own time is up to you. I'm against removing the stat because I think it promotes self improvement. Being part of an outfit makes you count yourself as a valued asset more then numbers on the lower left of your screen.

But you want to remove those numbers in some weak attempt at promoting an optional course of action in a game. Without considering the desires of others.

First of all, it doesn't promote self improvement. It promotes doing what you're best at that gets you the most kills with the least deaths. That and self improvement are not the same thing.

TF2 doesn't record deaths permanently. As a result, I play TF2 to improve. I practice spy, I work toward objectives to try to win games, I try new things and I just do whatever is most fun at the time.

Starcraft 2 doesn't record losses so I work on improving my mechanics and macro instead of rushing and cheesing every game for cheap wins. Before this a lot of players simply wouldn't ladder because it was too stressful for people or too much negative feedback to keep them playing the game and having fun.

In contrast, BF3 records deaths and KDR prominently. Because of that I play with KDR in mind. If it wasn't there I wouldn't. I'll even throw myself under the bus just to make a point....

http://battlelog.battlefield.com/bf3/soldier/Plunkies/stats/242563803/

That's what KDR does to my play. 50 MCOM placements in 1500 rush games, because why die when I can let a newb plant the MCOM while I cover and collect frags? I still play for my team, but never at the expense of myself (at least not in pubs).

Removing deaths is not a weak attempt at influencing actions at all. Most players will natural do what the game encourages them to do via score and feedback.

By that logic not showing deaths would make players completely not recognize the importance of being cautious when the situation calls for it. Avoiding death is not more important than taking objectives but it IS important.

People already know death is bad. Dying is already punished by telling you you died and making you respawn. Players are already discouraged from dying but it isn't made more important than it should be with permanent death stats.

[Mythoclast]

First of all, it doesn't promote self improvement. It promotes doing what you're best at that gets you the most kills with the least deaths. That and self improvement are not the same thing.

TF2 doesn't record deaths permanently. As a result, I play TF2 to improve. I practice spy, I work toward objectives to try to win games, I try new things and I just do whatever is most fun at the time.

Starcraft 2 doesn't record losses so I work on improving my mechanics and macro instead of rushing and cheesing every game for cheap wins. Before this a lot of players simply wouldn't ladder because it was too stressful for people or too much negative feedback to keep them playing the game and having fun.

In contrast, BF3 records deaths and KDR prominently. Because of that I play with KDR in mind. If it wasn't there I wouldn't. I'll even throw myself under the bus just to make a point....

http://battlelog.battlefield.com/bf3/soldier/Plunkies/stats/242563803/

That's what KDR does to my play. 50 MCOM placements in 1500 rush games, because why die when I can let a newb plant the MCOM while I cover and collect frags? I still play for my team, but never at the expense of myself (at least not in pubs).

Removing deaths is not a weak attempt at influencing actions at all. Most players will natural do what the game encourages them to do via score and feedback.



People already know death is bad. Dying is already punished by telling you you died and making you respawn. Players are already discouraged from dying but it isn't made more important than it should be with permanent death stats.

Looks like neither side is convincing the other side. Guess we'll wait and see what they decide. We fundamentally disagree with what happens if deaths are recorded. I think that your beliefs on it are not completely unreasonable but I disagree with what you think will happen.

(PS SC2 has no bearing on this. Not only is it primarily a 1v1 game but it also records how high up you get in rank which is based on wins and losses. Cheese is also used very prominently up to the skill level where it can't be used because it gets beaten. This shows the opposite effect of what happened to you. Gold and Silver are massive cheese fests but Platinum and Diamond aren't, not because they don't care about winning but because players of that caliber defeat cheese easily.)

[Plunkies]

(PS SC2 has no bearing on this. Not only is it primarily a 1v1 game but it also records how high up you get in rank which is based on wins and losses)

The reasons for its removal were the same. It was unnecessary negative reinforcement that didn't have beneficial impact on people's experience with the game. It was PURELY negative, just like death stats, and it discouraged fun and experimentation.

[Mythoclast]

The reasons for its removal were the same. It was unnecessary negative reinforcement that didn't have beneficial impact on people's experience with the game. It was PURELY negative, just like death stats, and it discouraged fun and experimentation.

People don't experiment in SC2 except at top level play where they have to to win. Bronze players just mass units, gold and silver either use build orders they copy from others or cheese, platinum and diamond use build orders copied from others but executed better, only in higher diamond and the master tiers do you see lots of variation because you usually can't win just by following a premade plan.

[DownloadFailed]

What are you a effing mind reader? Can you learn all that by your silly little self based on text on a screen?

Don't put words in my mouth. It really is annoying.

K/D is something you learned to manage on your own. Whether you decide to be a killwhore or figure out how to balance it in your own time is up to you. I'm against removing the stat because I think it promotes self improvement. Being part of an outfit makes you count yourself as a valued asset more then numbers on the lower left of your screen.

But you want to remove those numbers in some weak attempt at promoting an optional course of action in a game. Without considering the desires of others.

Ok, first off, I read someone else's comment somewhere in the thread previously, so I wasn't referencing your post regarding the origin of KDR in PS1. I wasn't sure if it was in the game at launch. But regardless, my post still stands. Second, I did NOT say that we should remove deaths or KDR. Did you even read my post? We should (I'm gonna quote myself here) "take focus away from KDR that encourages selfish play and put it on a measurement like score."

I never put any words in your mouth. You're good enough at screwing them up on your own.

[Tehroth]

Okay on a serious note. Yes, Kdr and the such are bad for a game that requires teamwork like planetside 2 and yes, I might bail to save my skin a couples times(albeit I'll come back as a tactical retreat) however kdr have come to be a staple part of any fps and their community.

I always strive to gain a better kdr and to get more kills than my deaths.(Bf3) The only counter to this I suggest would be benefits to sacrificing yourself. If there are experience for being a martyr or something that benefited your faction in some way, but resulted in your death.

Medics should have a heal gauge, infiltrators a hacking score, ect so we know who the king of the castle is in those regards.

Tldr: Yes it is bad, but it also has benefits.

[cHaM]

4.44

[StumpyTheOzzie]

True story:

I was in an outfit (that was lame) and we had to breech a door. Normally the MAX would do that but he said via teamspeak "No, I'm not going in first. My K/D is 15 right now. If I die it'll drop to 7"

So I went in first and died horribly and quickly and then the MAX ran away, back out the back door.

About 5 minutes after that I left the outfit.

Now that's one example. I have many more as a tank driver. We had to take a tower and my gunner wouldn't get out to footzerg because he could get more kills when the TR poked their heads out the door.

I'm pretty sure all PS1 vets would have examples of this. A sizable chunk of people playing wouldn't bother with objectives because they could get a higher K/D ratio - and for what? What reason is there for a high K/D?

[vVRedOctoberVv]

Borat: King In The Castle - YouTube

[LtHolmes]

I agree with you that when worrying about you K/D ratio rather than playing as a team is a terrible thing. But, some people want to play to get their K/D ratio up. Planetside 2 is shaping up to look like it can suit multiple playstyles. What is the point of limiting/forcing some sort of meta game on people. They will find similar soldiers and make an outfit together.. problem solved. People that want to be more role playing can do that, people that want team tactics can do that, tank outfits, casual outfits, etc...

Any ways PS2 has an amazing stat tracker and it would be a shame for them to limit it in any way. On top of that, I certainly hope there are some NC snipers in the hills farming and worrying about their K/D ratio. Our outfit will be glad to get a coordinated Liberator bombing of the area and right the balance. :)

[soulsurfsublime]

I support this message, I am all for no death stats. However I don't think this is likely to happen in any modern FPS. That is why I hope to find a outfit or a group of players with the same mind set, where teamwork and winning are the priority. The same happens in BF3, the good news is there are just as many players more concerned with SPM as there are with KD.

[Mythoclast]

I support this message, I am all for no death stats. However I don't think this is likely to happen in any modern FPS. That is why I hope to find a outfit or a group of players with the same mind set, where teamwork and winning are the priority. The same happens in BF3, the good news is there are just as many players more concerned with SPM as there are with KD.

Exactly, why limit everyone else when you yourself can join a great outfit?

[maradine]

I agree that KDR incentivizes the "wrong" behavior in a large scale, objective-based game. However, the fact is, there's a large swathe of FPS players that judge their performance on it. We want to capture those players.

Rather than attempting to corral these players' behaviors by removing a visible success metric they desire, I'd prefer also we track and report on metrics that we consider more important, or that we feel properly incentivizes the play behaviors we think are "right". If that's captures, report and track captures. If it's breaking up a hack, report and track every time someone stomps a hacker.

We need everyone to make this game successful and give it a shot at real longevity - not the blasphemous necromancy keeping PS1 "alive". We can't cater to everyone perfectly, but we can provide incentives for most, if not all, playing philosophies.

[Blackwolf]

I agree that KDR incentivizes the "wrong" behavior in a large scale, objective-based game. However, the fact is, there's a large swathe of FPS players that judge their performance on it. We want to capture those players.

Rather than attempting to corral these players' behaviors by removing a visible success metric they desire, I'd prefer also we track and report on metrics that we consider more important, or that we feel properly incentivizes the play behaviors we think are "right". If that's captures, report and track captures. If it's breaking up a hack, report and track every time someone stomps a hacker.

We need everyone to make this game successful and give it a shot at real longevity - not the blasphemous necromancy keeping PS1 "alive". We can't cater to everyone perfectly, but we can provide incentives for most, if not all, playing philosophies.

You are the one to determine what is more important? What about my own right to determine what is important? I play the game the way I want, not the way you want. I'll set my own priorities thanks, I don't need a babysitter trying to explain to me what matters more or less then what.

That's what you are trying to do here. You are trying to force a set playstyle on players of the game, you will never make money that way. The DEVs know this. Simple easy to understand stats are fine, and the easiest is KADR system (Kill/Assist/Death Ratio). Assist would apply to everything from shooting at someone that someone else kills to reviving someone and then they kill someone. Things you do that then enable other players to go out and do their thing. Easy.

The system isn't broken, stop trying to invent problems so that you can solve them. You make good points, I'll give you that. But I don't think the KDR stats are consciously or sub-consciously changing the way people play the game. I think most killwhores will always be killwhores regardless of their ratio and I think the KDR system is there for those of us who like to improve it.

[Plunkies]

You are the one to determine what is more important? What about my own right to determine what is important? I play the game the way I want, not the way you want. I'll set my own priorities thanks, I don't need a babysitter trying to explain to me what matters more or less then what.

That's what you are trying to do here. You are trying to force a set playstyle on players of the game, you will never make money that way. The DEVs know this. Simple easy to understand stats are fine, and the easiest is KADR system (Kill/Assist/Death Ratio). Assist would apply to everything from shooting at someone that someone else kills to reviving someone and then they kill someone. Things you do that then enable other players to go out and do their thing. Easy.

The system isn't broken, stop trying to invent problems so that you can solve them. You make good points, I'll give you that. But I don't think the KDR stats are consciously or sub-consciously changing the way people play the game. I think most killwhores will always be killwhores regardless of their ratio and I think the KDR system is there for those of us who like to improve it.

By your logic, why have a score system at all? Who are you to determine that X action is worth Y amount of points? Let them do whatever they want instead of babysitting them with a scoring system that incentivizes teamplay!

Neither Tribes nor TF2 show deaths because they realize that it's not conducive to a team based game. Just because some people like KDR stats doesn't mean it's good for gameplay. And I'm sure just as many people would rather NOT see those stats so why force it on the entire playerbase just to be more like COD or whatever. Just because deathmatch focused games have a KDR doesn't mean a team based games need one too.

Showing deaths WILL have a negative impact on overall gameplay. That is a fact.

[SixShooter]

The OP was great in pointing out the flaws in the culture but removing K/D stats is not going to happen due to the exact same flawed culture. What we do know is that SOE will be providing massive amounts of data regarding stats and if they're not already planning on it, we need to make sure that they know that we need stats relating to all the different types of support roles.

Then we need someone to make iOS/Android apps and websites that does have deaths removed and focuses on SCORE and gives the info that most of the people on this thread are asking for. The people who want to focus on K/D can do that while the people who want to focus on everything else can do that as well. Everyone is going to have the tools to enjoy the game how they want to and isn't that what it all about anyway?

[vVRedOctoberVv]

The OP was great in pointing out the flaws in the culture but removing K/D stats is not going to happen due to the exact same flawed culture. What we do know is that SOE will be providing massive amounts of data regarding stats and if they're not already planning on it, we need to make sure that they know that we need stats relating to all the different types of support roles.

Very reasonable and true, sir.

[Mythoclast]

Showing deaths WILL have a negative impact on overall gameplay. That is a fact.

No it isn't, that is an opinion. Some of us have a different opinion. Don't be arrogant. Recognize the facts and opinions. You HAVE supported your opinion with SOME facts and so have we. But they are still opinions.

At this point you are either trolling (/bow) or you are so entrenched in yourself you can't even recognize another viewpoint. You may backpedal on the severity of your statement now (or not) but either way this statement is high evidence that you don't give a shit about a reasonable argument and therefore I bid you good day.

[vVRedOctoberVv]

Arguing video games is like arguing politics. Facts people don't agree with are ignored or called opinions. On both sides.

[Mythoclast]

Arguing video games is like arguing politics. Facts people don't agree with are ignored or called opinions. On both sides.

And extraordinarily strongly held opinions are called facts.

[Blackwolf]

And extraordinarily strongly held opinions are called facts.

And no one wants to call it how it is, BS.

Neither Tribes nor TF2 show deaths because they realize that it's not conducive to a team based game. Just because some people like KDR stats doesn't mean it's good for gameplay. And I'm sure just as many people would rather NOT see those stats so why force it on the entire playerbase just to be more like COD or whatever. Just because deathmatch focused games have a KDR doesn't mean a team based games need one too.


Can you present a written and signed statement by the DEVs of Tribes or TF2 supporting your claim? No? Well then how the hell would you know? Also I seem to recall seeing a K/D tally at the end of TF2 matches...

It was an easy thing to turn them off in PS1. Fact is a lot of people liked to see their counts to gauge their over all success. No one's going to be so reclusive in an FPS game that they won't perform any action that may cost them their life, that would make playing the game pointless and unsatisfying.

As for teamwork, join an outfit and roll over them like the individuals they are. Stop crying because some people aren't going to be as prone to working with others as you. And stop trying to manipulate the player base with silly designs meant to solve a problem that does not exist.

I swear you people act like everyone will run around as a medic because healing people is suddenly the only stat they can see.

[Mythoclast]

And no one wants to call it how it is, BS.

How can you? If anyone did that their side would seem so weak. Most arguments are pretty damn close and calling it like it is just puts you at a disadvantage in an argument. Psh, honesty, yeah right.

[Memeotis]

As much as I agree Malorn, I don't think the solution would be to entirely remove 'Deaths'. I think the solution would be to make kills seem secondary, or even tertiary to the objective of the game. This would include things like removing the K/DR stat from the quick-stat-screen, forcing people to go digging through their entire stat screen to find it. And rather than removing killstreak; add more types of streaks. Capture streaks, revive streaks etc etc.The only problem with these other streaks is that they need a bit of extra balancing, for instance the revive-streaks would only happen if you revive three different people.

[Gunnarr]

Love the post OP, and the thought placed into it.

I was thinking along the same lines, but you put it much better then I could. Hope they do this.

[maradine]

You are the one to determine what is more important? What about my own right to determine what is important? I play the game the way I want, not the way you want. I'll set my own priorities thanks, I don't need a babysitter trying to explain to me what matters more or less then what.

That's what you are trying to do here. You are trying to force a set playstyle on players of the game, you will never make money that way. The DEVs know this. Simple easy to understand stats are fine, and the easiest is KADR system (Kill/Assist/Death Ratio). Assist would apply to everything from shooting at someone that someone else kills to reviving someone and then they kill someone. Things you do that then enable other players to go out and do their thing. Easy.

The system isn't broken, stop trying to invent problems so that you can solve them. You make good points, I'll give you that. But I don't think the KDR stats are consciously or sub-consciously changing the way people play the game. I think most killwhores will always be killwhores regardless of their ratio and I think the KDR system is there for those of us who like to improve it.

Soooooo, was I just not clear that I want the system to cater to everyone, including you?

[Fairborn]

It seems like both sides are very dead set on their opinions of the matter. So why not have the best of both worlds?

Let people who want to have KDR have it visible for them. It isn't fair to ask the devs to get rid of a stat some people like having tracked just because some don't.

Now, for people that don't want it tracked, have an option to hide that stat on the profile. That way when others look at their profile, they are being presented the information the player whose profile it is thinks is important.

This way, you can choose what you present to others and what you don't.

Have the cake and eat it too :)

[DownloadFailed]

Soooooo, was I just not clear that I want the system to cater to everyone, including you?

The only thing he seems to be good at is ignoring those who argue against him.
You can go ahead and stop posting now, Blackwolf. You've made your point, and you obviously aren't listening to anyone else's.

[Flaropri]

Disclaimer: I have not read the thread, only the initial post, it is all I am responding to, and my comments may well be redundant with comments made by others. I am only expressing my own views here.

Re: "Why it's bad for the game."

I absolutely agree that when something is elevated it is viewed as the benchmark of success in this case. However, that doesn't mean that the existence of the stat itself is bad for the game.

For example, you later go on to talk about secondary "leader-boards" for kills and accuracy and such. Yet there's no reason to no also have "secondary" tracking of kills, deaths, etc. for a player. In the past, Kills and Deaths were the only stats tracked. Not accuracy, not preferred weapon or vehicle (or vehicle weapon), not even assists.

I say, that the problem isn't with the stat, but with presentation and lack of context. I'm not familiar with Battlefield so I don't know if it also keeps tracks of how many ammo packs you've thrown out, how often you have repaired a vehicle or anything of the sort, but I imagine it tracks far less than PS2 is promising to.

In fact, I would also say that KDR (or, preferably, KDAR) is potentially useful, especially when it is tied with weapons or specific locations. For example, if your KDR is significantly lower as HA than LA, you might want to look at the reasons for that, if you need to practice with HA more, or just use that information to dedicate more into LA.

Given context such as location, enemy type, you can also see what types of weapons and armor work best for a given situation. These are things you'll learn passively by gaining experience, but having the raw data does not hurt at all, and you can show it to others, especially new players, to support your theories (or others can look at them and say why you're wrong).

By not elevating it, and providing context, you can use that data to benefit the player (and the game to find imbalances and trends).

My Problem with "Score"

Score does not necessarily indicate results. For one, as you described it, "Score" would simply increase over time even in the absence of skill. You could, of course, apply a ratio: "Score:Time Played" but I don't think it's a good answer, especially since that can easily fluctuate wildly for new players (even more so than KDR), it also doesn't provide any useful information, since it doesn't give you context.

A Medic with a high score could mean that they have a great KDR, it could mean that they heal a lot, it could mean they've just played a lot, or it could mean they like to shoot their allies and heal them to pad their score. Score can still be useful, but only with context, and it requires greater context than KDR.

For example, League of Legends provides Score in dominion, and it tells you far less about what you have done right than KDA ratio and CS in regular play. Also, it always gives items and the champion used, so you have context, albeit still not a complete picture by any means, even so, you can understand why a given character might have a low score based on likely match-ups and roles. Score explains far less about the flow of a given game in LoL, and there are still debates about whether or not the scoring system is actually good or not.

I don't think Score is bad mind, I just don't think it should be elevated any more than KDR.


Conclusion: I think that the real thing to look at is providing more information than just KDR, to not elevate a given stat over another (and those players that do so automatically will either learn or not care anyway).

KDR can still be useful, and shouldn't be removed as a tracked stat, just don't put it on a pedestal, and provide context.

Removing KDR won't cost players, but it is removing a resource, and I'd rather have more data than less.

[leecH]

the games out there already evolved to a score/xp kind of scoreboard years ago. on top of that how can ps2 evolve the genre since the game itself is it´s own genre.

the threadtitle really makes no sense at all.

also the discussion about k/d is years old i see no point in bringing it back. either you are 16 years old and care about it or you dont.

[Kezz]

Deaths should not even be tracked...
...deathmatch in an open world. That's epic fail to me.

What you promote matters - so don't promote things that are counter-productive.

Score is beautiful. Score is awesome...Because score is awarded for any activity...

...Secondary leaderboards should exist for kills...[etc]

...Score is tweakable...
...So many options here to utilize this universal stat to shape player behavior.


Evolve the Genre

Planetside is a game-changer, and one of the best ways it can change the game is to improve the genre - get rid of that archaic 1990's stats and move to something better. Make a better game. Encourage better behaviors.

Removing deaths as a stat and promoting Score will not cost you players. Nobody will stop playing Planetside 2 because they dont' get to see a stat with their deaths being tracked. What they will see will encourage success of their empire.

Move PS2 forward. Get rid of deaths as a stat. Get rid of kill streaks. Just take it out and see how it plays. Bury kill whore stats and put them at the same level of importance as any other activity, like heals, revives, captures, etc. You won't miss them and you'll see people doing new behaviors they might never have tried before. Evolve the Genre.

Total agreement here. Sure, players like stats. But they'll like whatever stats they're given. If anything they'll like not being reminded how often they die from arbitrary battlefield events like your spawnpoint being stonked/overrun as you appear. "Score" gets displayed in your "combat log" pane, so you can see what you're doing to get it. There could be an option for it to pop as floating text, maybe, too.

The killwhores will still be able to see the notches on their rifle butt mount up. The revivewhores will be able to see the notches on their defibrilator handle.

[Envenom]

Guess what? It's in whether you like it or not. QQ

[Zulthus]

You make a very compelling argument, and I can tell you have put a lot of thought and effort into your post.

[Envenom]

You make a very compelling argument, and I can tell you have put a lot of thought and effort into your post.

You'd be incorrect in that assumption.

[GreatMazinkaise]

You make a very compelling argument, and I can tell you have put a lot of thought and effort into your reply.

Maybe not, but he's not wrong with his assessment. It'll be there, though you may have some ability to hide it. People who care will shun you if your K/D is bad or if you choose not to reveal it.

/shrug

[DviddLeff]

Totally agree - I've been playing PS again the past month or so and I find I am constantly checking my K/D.

Death tally should not be in game.

[Zulthus]

You'd be incorrect in that assumption.

Is that so? Then I do apologize and withdraw my statement, good sir.

[Envenom]

In all seriousness though, with the amount of robustness in the data services they claim they will be offering, there is little to no chance of this not being in. It's essentially Battlelog for PS. Is it right or wrong? I personally like it. Regardless, it will be in.

[Malorn]

And yet you seem worried. It's something easy enough to remove, and is there anyone who won't play the game because it doesn't have a death stat being visible? That would be quite ridiculous.

Negative stats shouldn't be tracked. It affects the game, like it or not, and the behavior it encourages is not good for the game. Just because we're in an era where we feel everything needs to have numbers doesn't mean those numbers need to be prominently displayed or elevated to inappropriate importance. I think the developers are smart enough to realize that and are capable of making decisions. Things that are "in" now aren't necessarily going to stay that way. That's what beta and feedback are all about.

[kaibutzu]

And yet you seem worried. It's something easy enough to remove, and is there anyone who won't play the game because it doesn't have a death stat being visible? That would be quite ridiculous.

Negative stats shouldn't be tracked. It affects the game, like it or not, and the behavior it encourages is not good for the game. Just because we're in an era where we feel everything needs to have numbers doesn't mean those numbers need to be prominently displayed or elevated to inappropriate importance. I think the developers are smart enough to realize that and are capable of making decisions. Things that are "in" now aren't necessarily going to stay that way. That's what beta and feedback are all about.

stfu

u probably suck at fps obv dont wanna show your 0.79 k/d

[maddoggg]

Very well said OP!
I myself have been playing a lot of online FPS games for about 10 years now and i know what you are talking about.
K/D does not belong in any objective based game like planetside or battlefield!

To be honest i fully realised how much better a game becomes,when there is no K/D tracking,with section 8 prejudice.
The stat portal there tracked score,tracked kills,but it didnt track deaths.
The result?
Out of 32 players in a server you would see no more than 2-3 kill wh*res and the rest trying to PTFO.
And in bf3 out of 32 players you would see no more than 2-3 people PTFOing and everybody else is kill wh*ring.
The difference really IS THAT BIG!

I know many people,like me,dont care much about stats and some of them dont see what's the problem with K/D.
But just because the stats may not be important to you and me doesnt mean that it's so for the majority of gamers.
I have been in several clans in multiple games,and in my bf3 clan for example there were a lot of kids(and sadly not just the kids...) who were obsessed about stats(K/D in particular).Sadly the new generation of FPS players(which is the majority)plays ONLY for the purpose of K/D.
That doesnt mean however they would not play ps2 just because there is no K/D.
Like OP said i doubt the lack of K/D would turn people away(and we'll be better of without the people who would not play just because there is no K/D) can go.

The problem is that once they start playing the game,they will quickly become stat obsessed and will be seeing 400 infiltrators per team doing l33t sniping....

[ZaBa]

It's great how you seem to assume that the presence of stats you don't like automatically indicates that sensible things like the number of people you've transported in your Gal, heals, revives, repairs etc won't also be recorded. (hint: they are)

Regarding your concern about "negative" stats: deaths is a useful statistic to have, because it directly represents how much time you're spending not fighting (and conversely, how time you are spending fighting). If someone chooses to focus on dying less and killing more (a worthwhile goal for an HA player) in order to maximise their time on the front and thus their usefulness to the team (also points :rofl:), it's good for them to be able to see how they're doing with that.

But all of this is pointless because K:d is a curiosity; the main counter at the top of their stats tracker as of E3 is points/hour.

[deltase]

As i've always said, K/D is a stat that is nothing. For me it doesn't show, if you are good or bad. So The score thingy is way better cause it shows how much you took part in a battle or something like that.

[StumpyTheOzzie]

Well, focussing on K/D and not on "the win" is bad because I'm working hard for the empire, using up my personal resources so that lame ass snipers can profit off the sweat of my labour without contributing to my expenses.

[Zulthus]

stfu

u probably suck at fps obv dont wanna show your 0.79 k/d

Obligatory .gif

http://play.esea.net/global/media_preview.php?url=http%3A%2F%2Fi1213.photobuck et.com%2Falbums%2Fcc474%2Fjimmyram70%2Fdis-gon-b-gud.gif

Watch out Malorn, this guy is dangerous.




Just so this post is considered a contribution to the thread, K/D should not be tracked as it is not an accurate measure of player skill and contribution. That guy sitting over there with a 50/1 K/D is most likely just camping that doorway with a sniper rifle. SPM is a much better way to track how useful you are.

[EisenKreutzer]

My K : D will probably have 50-100% more D thank K. I die a lot, because I suck at games. Hopefully K : D won't become the GearScore of Planeiside 2...

[Plunkies]

No it isn't, that is an opinion. Some of us have a different opinion. Don't be arrogant. Recognize the facts and opinions. You HAVE supported your opinion with SOME facts and so have we. But they are still opinions.

No. It's fact. It's literally fact. Working under the assumption that teamplay > KD whoring, it's a fact. Under no circumstance that I can think of will tracking deaths HELP teamplay in any conceivable way. I can come up with dozens of ways it will discourage it. How could it? How could it encourage anything but dying less? How could that lead to anything but players taking less risk?

At this point you are either trolling (/bow) or you are so entrenched in yourself you can't even recognize another viewpoint. You may backpedal on the severity of your statement now (or not) but either way this statement is high evidence that you don't give a shit about a reasonable argument and therefore I bid you good day.

Yes, because the mark of someone wanting a reasonable argument is accusing people who disagree with them of being trolls....:rolleyes:

[pengalor]

They should just have options to hide them. I want to see my stats. Kills, death, SPM, number of revives, ammo given, accuracy, everything. It helps me to improve as a player by allowing me to critique my own performance. If you are worried about what the community is going to judge others on, there will always be something. You don't lower the bar to meet the lowest common denominator, you raise it and expect people to rise to that level. The highest level is choice, the choice to show whatever stats you want and allow you to base your performance on whatever you like. We don't need to be babied by the devs and told "you're not grown-up enough to see this stat and use it in a 'responsible' way".

No. It's fact. It's literally fact. Working under the assumption that teamplay > KD whoring, it's a fact. Under no circumstance that I can think of will tracking deaths HELP teamplay in any conceivable way. I can come up with dozens of ways it will discourage it. How could it? How could it encourage anything but dying less? How could that lead to anything but players taking less risk?



Yes, because the mark of someone wanting a reasonable argument is accusing people who disagree with them of being trolls....:rolleyes:

Except he's right. It's not fact, it's your opinion. It's based entirely on what YOU think will happen and circumstances YOU can think of. There's been no research, there's been no study, just random and biased observation. That's opinion.

[Mythoclast]

No. It's fact. It's literally fact. Working under the assumption that teamplay > KD whoring, it's a fact. Under no circumstance that I can think of will tracking deaths HELP teamplay in any conceivable way. I can come up with dozens of ways it will discourage it. How could it? How could it encourage anything but dying less? How could that lead to anything but players taking less risk?



Yes, because the mark of someone wanting a reasonable argument is accusing people who disagree with them of being trolls....:rolleyes:

The statement "Showing deaths hurts gameplay" is an opinion. Don't be an ass. It is a REASONABLE opinion but it ain't a fact.

Your whole argument centers around the idea that no matter the class or player there should be no incentive to avoiding death or playing less risky is narrow minded and against the spirit of playing PS2 your way. If someone wants to play in a high risk high reward, pulse pumping adrenaline fueled, objective rushing, squad, hell yeah, go for it. If someone wants to play in a calm, collected, surgically precise and slow paced, squad, you gonna knock em' for it?

I think tracking things like healing per death, vehicles exploded per death, hacks per death, all of those separated per class, per weapon, hell, maybe even per minute of play, would all add to my game experience. I wanna see weapon accuracy stats, miles traveled in each vehicle, miles ran, team kills, multi-kills, times ran over people, drop pod kills, everything. That stuff entertains me. I don't think the asshole KDR whores are gonna care a lick if you remove deaths from some out of the way stat screen and will continue to be asshole KDR whores.

Also, I can't BELIEVE you used the phrase "literally a fact" when referring to this. You need to go take a debate class or something because that just makes you look like a stubborn mule. I don't think you are an idiot, or an ass, or a stubborn mule, but God damn bro do you come off that way. I like your arguments and it would be interesting to test the effect of removing deaths. I wouldn't be completely surprised if you were right (but I would expect you weren't) but don't try and set your opinion as the fact we must all believe.

[EisenKreutzer]

I fear that a prominently displayed K : D ratio or an easy way of accessing peoples K : D could potentially hurt the game, or atleast some aspects of it.

To support my claim, I present to you: GearScore from World of Warcraft.
Lots of people say GearScore ruined WoW. While I would hesitate to go that far, it did change lots of social dynamics in the game, and not for the better. Basically, for those of you who have never touched WoW, Every item you equip has a level. gearScore was a user-created addon that tracked those item levels, and displayed them as an overall score easily available to users of the addon.
What this meant was that people had an easy way of quickly looking at a character and "rate" their overall performance.
Thats where the shit started.
People with lower GearScores were excluded from everything. Guilds, Raids, even dungeon groups. You could literally be kicked from a PUG if your GearScore was too low in somebodys eyes.

Simply put, GearScore split the community.

Now, you might say that this was a good thing, as it separated the good players from the bad, but I don't agree with that.

I am also not saying that K : D in Planetside 2 will automatically turn into this, but the potential is there.
So just keep that in mind.

[Mythoclast]

I fear that a prominently displayed K : D ratio or an easy way of accessing peoples K : D could potentially hurt the game, or atleast some aspects of it.

To support my claim, I present to you: GearScore from World of Warcraft.
Lots of people say GearScore ruined WoW. While I would hesitate to go that far, it did change lots of social dynamics in the game, and not for the better. Basically, for those of you who have never touched WoW, Every item you equip has a level. gearScore was a user-created addon that tracked those item levels, and displayed them as an overall score easily available to users of the addon.
What this meant was that people had an easy way of quickly looking at a character and "rate" their overall performance.
Thats where the shit started.
People with lower GearScores were excluded from everything. Guilds, Raids, even dungeon groups. You could literally be kicked from a PUG if your GearScore was too low in somebodys eyes.

Simply put, GearScore split the community.

Now, you might say that this was a good thing, as it separated the good players from the bad, but I don't agree with that.

I am also not saying that K : D in Planetside 2 will automatically turn into this, but the potential is there.
So just keep that in mind.

This I agree with. Make KDR only accessible in some out of game stat screen and this effect would be negligible.

[Flaropri]

Just so this post is considered a contribution to the thread, K/D should not be tracked as it is not an accurate measure of player skill and contribution. That guy sitting over there with a 50/1 K/D is most likely just camping that doorway with a sniper rifle. SPM is a much better way to track how useful you are.

Neither is batting average. Doesn't mean you shouldn't track it.

[Zulthus]

Neither is batting average. Doesn't mean you shouldn't track it.

Yes, it does. Nice try comparing real life statistics to a video game, though. A high K/D ratio means absolutely nothing, whereas a high batting average is concrete proof that you are a better player. You'd be better off comparing it to SPM, which is also how to tell if someone is a good player or not.

[Aurmanite]

Track everything. Don't take away an essential part of my experience.

[Flaropri]

Yes, it does. Nice try comparing real life statistics to a video game, though. A high K/D ratio means absolutely nothing, whereas a high batting average is concrete proof that you are a better player. You'd be better off comparing it to SPM, which is also how to tell if someone is a good player or not.

A high batting average doesn't mean you're a better player, it means you're a better batter. You could instead be better at running, stealing bases, out-fielding, low number of errors in the infield, pitching, etc. to justify your position on a team.

A high KDR doesn't mean you're a better player, it means you're better at killing people in a video game. You could be better at healing, at driving transports, at laying defensive mines/turrets, or at infiltrating to take out generators or other key structures. Perhaps you focus on supporting with suppressive fire to pin an enemy in a location.

Batting is a key element in Baseball, to be sure, but it isn't the only part of the game that matters, just as being able to kill and survive in an FPS is a key part of the game but not the only part that matters. Even so, it's worth looking at.

I suppose if you think that batting average is equivalent to telling you how good a player is... you just wouldn't get the comparison (or have looked at a baseball card).

[Accuser]

Here's an idea:
Give every player the ability to not track K/D at all on their account. Killwhores are going to killwhore even if you didn't track deaths. But completely disabling K/D on your account will force others to look at other stats if they want to evaluate your character.

[Zulthus]

A high batting average doesn't mean you're a better player, it means you're a better batter. You could instead be better at running, stealing bases, out-fielding, low number of errors in the infield, pitching, etc. to justify your position on a team.

You know what I meant, don't be a nazi.

A high KDR doesn't mean you're a better player, it means you're better at killing people in a video game. You could be better at healing, at driving transports, at laying defensive mines/turrets, or at infiltrating to take out generators or other key structures. Perhaps you focus on supporting with suppressive fire to pin an enemy in a location.

Or KDR could mean you're good at camping the spawn doorway with a sniper rifle. It varies by person. And as for the second part, that's exactly why SPM should replace K/D. It covers everything you do and shows how good you are and how much you contribute in general.

Batting is a key element in Baseball, to be sure, but it isn't the only part of the game that matters, just as being able to kill and survive in an FPS is a key part of the game but not the only part that matters. Even so, it's worth looking at.

The score you get from kills is a part of your total SPM. Everything else you do, repairing, healing, deploying CE, transport driver, etc is also calculated into it. What is the need for K/D? I didn't say killing doesn't matter, I said your K/D ratio does not matter.

I suppose if you think that batting average is equivalent to telling you how good a player is... you just wouldn't get the comparison (or have looked at a baseball card).

Again. I'm sure you know what I meant. Nazi.

[Emperor Newt]

Maybe track deaths, but only show it somewhere hidden in the web-profile or whatever.
KDR ingame doesn't tell you anyhing, especially not how good a teamplayer someone is. I very vividly remember the 6 sniper teams in BC2 which had tons of kills but where simply unable to do the objective.
If there is a ingame display then just show kills and some kind of "team score", just like Tribes Ascend does (just leave out the stupid stuff like in TA returning the flag. so infuriating...). It might not be perfect, but it's better then judging people by their KDR.

[Trennen]

KDR is a useless stat that only shit head fps **** need to stroke there e-peen to.

The only stat that matters in PS2 is the score stat and if they have any stat tracked it should be a score per death average. This would be the only way to really tell your worth in the empire.

[FireWater]

Granted I'm new here and hardly a PS1 vet, but let me give you my perspective as a competitive gamer in general.

Stats are awesome! I like the idea of a total score stat, where valuable behavior in the game (i.e. point capture, drop ship blowing up etc....) gives a single unit of score. But here is the challenge with that.

The one number doesn't tell me what a player did to reach that high score, AND if a player found an exploit to jack up the score artificially and no other stats are tracked, it maybe more difficult for the developers to figure out why player X has a HUGE score over everyone else, but his faction/outfit doesn't appear to be doing well. A single score can cause disparity on how that score was reached, without other statistics to kind of provide back up.

I believe that all statistics should be shown to give an outfit/player the "logic" of why a score is either so high, low or in the middle. Score is like just giving the answer in high school Algebra Class, its great that we see an answer, but the teacher is most likely more interested in the logic of how said answer was calculated. Score without any reference point to it can detract from its meaning.

So there is an opinion of a non-PS1 vet, but a big gaming vet in general. What do you all think?

[Sighpolice]

I agree with OP.

K/D is a stat for solo players, this game is revolved around teamwork so it shouldn't be the main stat, Score is a much better alternative to encourage teamwork.

To everyone who says "oh I care about K/D though" you shouldn't be so worried, all it shows is how well you can farm a situation (i.e waiting for the tank to be on 1hp and stealing the kill), if you were given the same "score" for hitting the tank as you was getting the kill, it would discourage kill stealing etc. Example - prowler dies in 7 hits, you get 6 shots and then some guy gets the 7th hit, and it is then that guy who gets all the glory.. just promotes bad teamwork :(

[Novice bot]

Players already have too much incentives to just go to the major battles. The good thing about K/D is that it encourages fighting at the smaller hubs, not just at the major points of interest. If things like Score Per Hour are implemented, the same plague happens that contaminated Tribes; Ascend. In T:A, the Capture the Flag mode is pretty much "generator destruction" on public games (where the masses play) simply because its easier to accommodate a higher score/hour ratio, which equals more exp and faster unlocks.

I seriously want to see fighting also at the outposts and other small hubs, not just the major locations of fighting. And it'll be a pain if too many incentives are given for large hubs, thus leaving all the less significant locations empty.

[Kran De Loy]

I agree with OP - HOWEVER
However K/D is so prevelent in the FPS genre that getting rid of it (removing Deaths from showing on the counter) will cause lots of people to bitch about it so I disagree about removing it. It's gonna stay.

That said, the part about making Score the most 'in your face' stat is a great idea, just have K/D as another stat listed just off to the side somewhere.

For example I see something like this:

SCORE: 9,999
It's OVER NINE THOUSAND!!!


Overall Objectives: #####
-Captures: ####
-Defences: ####
Kills: ####
-Headshots: ###
-Assists: ####
Repairs: ###
Heals: ###


Then mouse over Kills: #### score and it will tell you the K/D of the player. Click on it and it will break down the kills and deaths into empire factions.

[diLLa]

Can't we all decide for ourselves which stats we deem important?

[soulsurfsublime]

I am a Infiltrator at heart and I love recon, sabotage, and subterfuge. I prefer a knife and pistol over a long range rifle. I love to play the objective and be the eyes and forward scout of my outfit. You could take the death stat away and I wouldn't care one way or the other. I agree with the OP. But take it easy on the stereotypes on the infiltrator class. Not everyone plays it thinking they are a one man army, assassin, or Vassili Zaitsev.

I don't think they will ever remove it or that any modern FPS will not have it. I stated my feelings earlier but kept reading about how the snipers are going to camp for k/d. Not trying to hijack, just raise up for all the inf out there that actually play it as a support class!

[leecH]

Can't we all decide for ourselves which stats we deem important?

like.. using common sense.. ?

woah woah woah... imagine if...

[Broadside]

I like my K/D because I like to see how efficient I am at my job, so even if it isn't accessible in game I would at least like to see it on the stat tracking website.

[Accuser]

2 options:
1. List Kills and Deaths... but not K/D. People can calculate it, but it's not a tracked stat.
2. Allow people to disable the tracking of deaths on their account. People that like K/D can watch it, people that don't won't be judged on it.

[SavageB]

I like my stats....That is all.

[DSxGIIR]

I think K/D makes players want to become more of a better gamer. I mean you have to look at it this why planetside 2 is going to be a competitive game and people want to see if their improving in game. At least have a reason to become better at a game than just shooting willy nilly.

[Kezz]

What you promote matters.

Having K/D anywhere prominent, when the FPS crowd are expecting to find it will do nothing at all to promote the thing that will make PS2 different from previous FPS games: broad scale teamwork. Score should be rammed down peoples' throats til they get the idea that this is a different kind of game.

[maradine]

I've refined and tl;dr'd my earlier position into "Track Every Thing". Record every useful and useless bit of data, expose the API, and let the community decide what's important.

Realistically, KDR isn't going anywhere without a mass revolt. This thread is decent evidence that the community wants a number of different things. So track 'em all.

[Eyeklops]

Wow that was one hell of a necro....


You can find it, but it doesn't have to be prominent in the game. It can be buried somewhere. It doesn't have to have a leaderboard promoting it either.

Information is OK, but which information is prominent must be carefully considered.
Yea, I lol'ed on the necro.

On topic, I disagree. I think that K/D should be prominently displayed right above the nametag on the 3D hud for all to see.

[SirDart]

While I totally agree that K/D has nothing to do with bragging rights, and score is a much better measurement. I think it would do a disservice to not track Kills and Deaths, but it would need to be tracked for overall time played, and per class/vehicle/aircraft. What I mean here is when I saw Matt Higby showed in one of the early videos about how many stats were tracked, you could compare nearly any stat against another stat, and discover if you were improving in a class, or perhaps you tried a tactic one day, and found that a different tactic worked better for you and your team (to keep teammates alive, make better progress on mission accomplishments, etc...).

It might be nice to have people who love statistics, be able to gather up an outfit's statistics to see overall how it is improving, and perhaps see that the Friday night wasn't half as successful as Thursday night (too many players in drunk ops?).

I'm not suggesting that K/D has any meaning as an individual stat, but when taken into account over time, it could provide more insight to how a groups tactics are developing. Also, it would be best to collect all stats, so you could find out how many revives were made in an evening, how many points repaired, etc...

All stats can have meaning, and believe me when I say there are some nerds out there that would love to mine it for all its worth. :cool:

[AzureWatcher]

I love my KDR. I love my score per minute. I love knowing how many people of each faction I've killed with a particular weapon. I like knowing how many times I've crashed in a Scythe.

Don't judge me. I love my stats. I also think that KDR is important in any game, FPS or otherwise. Kill/Death Ratio should be easily accessible along with score per minute. None should be made more "prominent" than the other. Because, you know, it is possible to care about teamwork -and- your KDR at the same time. It's not impossible and there are people who do care about both.

There are even some people who only care about KDR. Why does that matter to you? Let him care about it. He's not affecting you. And his presence isn't hurting your teamwork either. He's killing the enemy and that is the main objective of the game because a dead soldier is a soldier that cannot compete for a territory. He's just doing service to his empire in a very efficient and solitary manner is all. Let him track his stat of choice so he knows how well he's doing!

[XxAxMayxX]

I don't think this will ruin any curtain feals it will just give the nnobs something to look foreward 2 us more experienced players will just look at it as bragging points and maybe something to work for when you're outfit isn't around.

You do have very good concerns though but I think they will be solved in beta when we get our hands on the game, to see if it's noticeable

[Pavilo Olson]

K : D is good if you have a 'round based' game. Planetside 2 is persistent, its different from most shooters. This is where i agree with the OP and say tracking Death stats is bad, if you are immortal why would you track your deaths?
I agree tracking kills is a good thing though, knowing how many you have killed with what gun and such is good.
/mythoughts

[GameCobra]

Score should definitely be the "go to" stat in this game for people that want to show how good they are, but there's another thing i think is that instead of a K/D ratio, it's a K/D/A Ratio, something like what Team Fortress 2 had, like for example:

Kills = 2 points
Assists = 1 point.

Assists are from things like healing, repairing, deploying turrets and people successfully killing with them. That way, it don't matter if you're a medic who is living off of assists like a Medic from TF2 is like, but you're getting points regardless in a team effort enviroment.

The only question would be the cap. I remember PS1 had a small cap last time I saw.

[avpmaster]

I'm surprised Higby and no other developer wanted to comment on this particular thread (20+ pages btw), yet they are all over some pointless threads (looking at VIP tracker). Yes, they've been great with providing answers to our questions and that they look at our feedback to "improve" the game but if they are true to their word they should scrap this idea in its entirety. The HUD and guns look and shoot like CoD already, but KDR is such a **** idea for a game as large as Planetside 2.
They should at least keep KDR private for one's viewing and not public.

They should really ask themselves, are they trying to evolve the FPS genre or follow in the footsteps of CoD and BF3?


I agree. If the KDR is kept private, the incentive to killwhore might slightly deciminate. Also, if an outfit demands an up-to-date KDR, all the player would have to do is to take a snapshot of it.

[EisenKreutzer]

I'm surprised Higby and no other developer wanted to comment on this particular thread (20+ pages btw), yet they are all over some pointless threads (looking at VIP tracker). Yes, they've been great with providing answers to our questions and that they look at our feedback to "improve" the game but if they are true to their word they should scrap this idea in its entirety. The HUD and guns look and shoot like CoD already, but KDR is such a **** idea for a game as large as Planetside 2.
They should at least keep KDR private for one's viewing and not public.

They should really ask themselves, are they trying to evolve the FPS genre or follow in the footsteps of CoD and BF3?

I'm sure there are similiar threads on the beta forums that the devs are reading and commenting in.

[kertvon]

I don't think the entire idea of K:dr is horrible in terms of concept, but as far as individual tracking of K:dr it is. K:dr would be really cool if it only took effect while in squad/outfit and the "perks" that come with it were only valid based on the spread of K:dr per squad/outfit mate.

Imagine if there were xp gains for killstreaks, but that those killstreaks only took effect when your squad/outfit successfully stacked kills while back to back kills from the same team member would not register.

Ex.
1. member 1 takes down an air vehicle
2. member 2 takes down a tank
3. member 3 takes down a foot soldier
4. etc, etc.

Only kills registered by different squad/outfit members would trigger the streak and once any member of the chained killstreak dies the whole thing ends.

Something like this would encourage team coordination, including but not limited to, healing one another, avoiding tk(although it would still likely happen to save one another's skin) and "chasing" targets to keep up a killstreak.

A system like this would encourage team play and anything in PS2 that does that is fine by me.

[Flaropri]

You know what I meant, don't be a nazi.

1. Godwin's Law.

2. I "know" you meant that Batting Average is similar to SPM... that there isn't a valid comparison between it and KDR... but that isn't the case in my view, and I provided reasons why that wasn't the case. If I'm wrong about what you meant, I apologize but that's what I read, and I can't go off what's going on in your head only what you write.

Or KDR could mean you're good at camping the spawn doorway with a sniper rifle. It varies by person. And as for the second part, that's exactly why SPM should replace K/D. It covers everything you do and shows how good you are and how much you contribute in general.

You say that as if spawn camping isn't valuable. It keeps the enemy pinned to a location while the rest of your team can continue to secure objectives. There was one person that talked about a sniper camping a doorway with a 50:1 KDR. If you can pull that off...

I'd say that player is holding their own. (Well, that or that sniper rifles need to be nerfed.)

There's no good reason to get rid of KDR, just don't put it on a pedestal, don't elevate it to be more important.

SPM can also still encourage bad behavior when it is elevated above other stats, because there are always loopholes that people can abuse if they want to after the system is learned (shouldn't take that long for people to figure out what gives the most SPM). I'm not against SPM existing, I want MORE data, not less.


The score you get from kills is a part of your total SPM. Everything else you do, repairing, healing, deploying CE, transport driver, etc is also calculated into it. What is the need for K/D? I didn't say killing doesn't matter, I said your K/D ratio does not matter.

KDR tells you more than just Kills alone. Tracking negative stats is a GOOD thing, as it helps players (that want to) learn more about what they can improve in their game-play. If they are dying a lot without killing people, they can ask themselves: "Is this reasonable for the role I'm playing, and if not, how can I improve it?"

Deaths, Friendly Fire, Accuracy (per weapon), Damage Taken (per class/vehicle), all tell you useful things even though they are "negative" stats.

Here's another example if a player has a lot of kills per minute, it might mean they are very precise, careful, and deliberate, having a high KDR. Or it might mean they often run in with boomers strapped on with a nearby medic to rez them, having a relatively low KDR. In either case, KDR tells you something about the player, and in both cases achieving that many kills in a given amount of time relies on at least one player being able to stay alive during most of the killing.

SMP rolls a bunch of stats together, but without also going into telling those stats or if people focus on SMP you have the same problems as KDR, but with even LESS information about the player.

[Rhyfelwrr]

Dont like it dont pay attention to it?
at least to kdr

score per minute is da beanz

[EisenKreutzer]

Dont like it dont pay attention to it?
at least to kdr

score per minute is da beanz

But other people will pay attention to it. What if they don't like your kdr and kick you out of the squad? Or the Outfit?

[Mythoclast]

But other people will pay attention to it. What if they don't like your kdr and kick you out of the squad? Or the Outfit?

Why would you join an outfit that does that? My guild in WoW wasn't obsessed with gearscore, they cared how well you did. If some asswipe outfit thinks KDR is so important than leave them in the dust and join a good outfit.

[EisenKreutzer]

Why would you join an outfit that does that? My guild in WoW wasn't obsessed with gearscore, they cared how well you did. If some asswipe outfit thinks KDR is so important than leave them in the dust and join a good outfit.

Maybe you didn't know they thought kdr was important? Maybe the new Outfit leader is an asshole?

I'm just saying, it's a possibility.

[Mythoclast]

Maybe you didn't know they thought kdr was important? Maybe the new Outfit leader is an asshole?

I'm just saying, it's a possibility.

That is possible without death being tracked. You leave them. You leave them fast.

[vVRedOctoberVv]

But other people will pay attention to it. What if they don't like your kdr and kick you out of the squad? Or the Outfit?

Switch sides and go head hunting :)



This argument, too, people on both sides have interesting points. But I think SOE has settled on this. I got the impression from the way they were describing the smartphone apps, the more stats, the better.

There are always going to be lone wolves, and killwhores. No amounts of tweaking is going to change that. So, to be honest, arbitrary inclusion or exclusion of a certain feature isn't going to change much. Even if it does subtly influence playstyles, it's not likely to have a world altering effect.

And even if I was immortal, I'd probably still keep a running tally of how many times I died. Especially if I experienced pain and discomfort while dying :) Reminds me of the story background for PS1 about that guy that flew through the warpgate and they kept executing him, only to have him respawn somewhere else on the world... increasingly pissed off after each execution :)

[MrBloodworth]

There was a marked, noticeable decline in PS1 game play when they added Session stats.

Hay look, its that word again. Session.

[Flaropri]

But other people will pay attention to it. What if they don't like your kdr and kick you out of the squad? Or the Outfit?

Feel free to not associate with such people. Also, I find it highly unlikely it will happen in PUG squads, considering such people most likely won't have time to check, will have made it invite-only, or won't be in a position to kick anyone anyway.

[Plunkies]

The statement "Showing deaths hurts gameplay" is an opinion. Don't be an ass. It is a REASONABLE opinion but it ain't a fact.

Your whole argument centers around the idea that no matter the class or player there should be no incentive to avoiding death or playing less risky is narrow minded and against the spirit of playing PS2 your way. If someone wants to play in a high risk high reward, pulse pumping adrenaline fueled, objective rushing, squad, hell yeah, go for it. If someone wants to play in a calm, collected, surgically precise and slow paced, squad, you gonna knock em' for it?

An opinion is something that varies based on a personal views. Example: Apple tastes good, flower smells bad, game is unfun. A fact is truth originating from experience, observation and evidence. "Death stats discourage teamplay" is a fact.

Jerk your knee back down, sit quietly, and try to think rationally for a moment. How can this be? Well, what could deaths do? OVERALL, they could have no effect, they could promote teamplay, or they could discourage teamplay. These are the three things that could happen. These are not opinions that vary from one person to another, like whether an apple tastes good or a flower smells funny. These are actual consequences resulting in a persistent death display. An individual may be effected differently, but the overall change can only be one of these.

So looking at the first option, it could have no effect on every single person. Meaning no change. We know from this thread alone that the overall effect will not be neutral. So now we're down to only two possible outcomes. Does it promote or discourage teamplay? At this point it should be common sense but since you keep spewing the word "opinion" like you're making a point, I'll just have to keep slowly explaining things to you.

How can showing deaths help teamplay? Well, there's really only two ways. The first, if dying subtracts from a team resource. Battlefield has a ticket count for example. If your team has tickets and you are not wasting them, you are indirectly helping the team. This isn't, however, active TEAMPLAY. This is just an indirect benefit. The other way to decrease deaths while helping your team is an overall increase of skill. But with no proof that KDR actually increases the average skill of the player with access to it, it can not be directly attributed to the KDR stat. You could make a similar argument that KDR reduces overall skill because players will take fewer risks resulting in less experience in situations that demand an increased skill level.

And finally, how does the death count discourage teamplay? Well the closer you get to an objective, the more likely you are to die. I've already posted my 4.8 k/d battlefield profile with minimal objective points. Objectives are meatgrinders with highly concentrated fighting often requiring a high risk of death to attempt to achieve the victory conditions or deny them from the opposing team. Logically, someone avoiding deaths would avoid these situations. Also, all support roles suddenly become less attractive as well. Only repairing or healing, driver seats with no guns, transport vehicles, etc. Not much of a KDR when your role never get kills. These are typically very team oriented tasks and anyone wanting a higher KDR would be wise to avoid them. In addition to this, KDR also promotes more SOLO activities that don't involve teamplay and might not help much at all. Vehicle pad camping, spawn camping, sniping. In BF specifically, most mortar and MAV abuse was a direct result of people trying to pad their stats. I can go on and on with more... Spawning on a squad is a very high risk of death often with little pay off. Switching to a class that your team needs more but you're less effective with is discouraged. Playing AA or AV if your weapons are more likely to only be a deterrent rather than something that will actually get a kill.

Here's a very important one. If you're losing, go somewhere else. Fighting losing battles gets you killed. Fighting outnumbered gets you killed. When your team needs you the most you have the least incentive to be there. Once again, persistent death stats actively discourage teamplay. It is not an opinion. It is a fact based on observation and logic. If you disagree with this then please give some reasoning behind it, because I've heard none so far.

Also, I can't BELIEVE you used the phrase "literally a fact" when referring to this. You need to go take a debate class or something because that just makes you look like a stubborn mule. I don't think you are an idiot, or an ass, or a stubborn mule, but God damn bro do you come off that way. I like your arguments and it would be interesting to test the effect of removing deaths. I wouldn't be completely surprised if you were right (but I would expect you weren't) but don't try and set your opinion as the fact we must all believe.

You provide more insults than proof of what you say. I've already asked you to disprove me and you haven't yet. Go ahead and try. How can deaths possibly promote teamplay more than they discourage it? Go.

[TheDAWinz]

Is this for reals?

[Flaropri]

"Death stats discourage teamplay" is an argument based in those stats being valued above other stats. Stats do nothing in and of themselves, they are only information, it is how they are used that matters.

Semantics aside, I have a few thoughts on your post:

1. You're focusing on overall impact. This is understandable, but it isn't the only aspect of the game. There are many people that like pouring over stats, charts, and numbers. Heck, look at the popularity of Football Manager 2012. How many gaming sites go over data and the meta-game, etc. This also includes people looking at personal stats, getting achievements or reaching personal goals. That is FUN for them, and they enjoy it.

Also, it can help an individual learn to do better at whatever role they have. Just because you're a medic doesn't mean you it is necessarily "good" to have a low KDA. You can learn to take less unnecessary risks if you find yourself dying too much regardless of the class, and over time, hopefully gain the experience to tell the difference between unnecessary and necessary

2. You're saying "team-play" but you really mean: "Objective play." The issue you seem to have is not that it discourages "team-play" but rather that it discourages non-kill-gaining risk. This is somewhat contentious, but logical within it's viewpoint.

A) In League of Legends, for example, KDA is important primarily for measuring current conditions, since death has such a large impact. In that game, people don't begrudge a support or tank for having few kills, or even more deaths than their team on average (up to a point). However, tracking deaths can give you good information about that players status, capability, and likely general item/XP level (at least in combination with CS). Also, there is a certain point where even a support or tank has died too much, and should take note of it and change tactics.

B) In most modern FPS games, victory is ephemeral, there is no incentive outside tournament play to win, while stats are persistent, so stats are more important than victory. In PS2, both are persistent, so you can't just transfer the experience and observation of those games directly, especially since Death isn't the only stat being tracked.

3. In my experience, having many deaths in a team-based means either the player is really, really bad and/or they aren't working with their team. Dying a lot can encourage people to do a different style of play that might be more effective for the situation... or they'll have succeeded and move on to the next objective. That includes working with more precise tactics as a team. It includes joining/creating an organized squad or platoon, or switching to/calling for medics/engineers to help people stay in the fight in spite of getting taken out often.


Again, I maintain that the problem is not with the stat, but with emphasis on it over victory or other stats such as objective captures/assists/defenses. By habit, I'm sure many players new to PS2 will probably focus on it at first, but that isn't something inherent to the stat, but rather to those other FPS games, and it is something that can be unlearned, and won't be a problem for those that just get into it fresh without that preconditioning.


This post has been in response to:
Many points.

[maradine]

Is this for reals?

I know, right? How do you even argue with that when the subjective is presented as the objective?

[GuyFawkes]

I'm not for or against the OP, but I would like to point out that for the most part the use of k/d as a means to play is not necessarily the goal as to why people play but is a side product of how they play.

I'll give 2 examples. Take an organised outfit like Delta Triad, fast response ethos, constantly looking for the next thing to happen, good fights and generally looking at small group of good players taking on larger numbers and winning. This is a really healthy way to play a game, it pushes you to improve, face odds of other competitive outfits or superior numbers of enemies. Even if you were a medium level player, this environment would make you an above average player in time due to the experience you face and learn from. Having a good k/d ratio goes hand in hand with this.

Then take a large outfit similar to The Enclave, organising people takes time. People are gathering vehicles and taking 10 minutes just to recall back to base. Then there's the logistics of who is doing what, a lot of coordination. Sure, once they get rolling, they make a large impact on the battlefield in the short time they are actually 'playing', but then it's rinse and repeat once formations are dispersed or it dosen't go exactly to plan. In a nutshell you have a large number of people stood around, eventually go on their mission, might die without killing anything, and reform to do the same thing over and over. They have a terrible k/d but the overall effect of the teamwork has some success.

Both examples are effective, but the first has imbedded within it the means to improve as a player and k/d is mere sideproduct of that. The latter reduces the individual to a mere pawn, and k/d is not the goal, but the ethos is that you the individual are expendable for the greater good.

[GLaDOS]

How about we just track all stats, but have score on the page you go to when you click "Leaderboards," and if you really want to look at your other stats, like K/D, etc., then you just click on another, small link on that page. That means that the average player, who just wants to quickly see "how they're doing," will probably just look at his score and be like, "huh, okay, I suck/kick ass." However, if you're someone who's determined to find out your K/D 'cause you really care about it, then you can go to that other link, but it's a secondary leaderboard, and not what most people will be looking at/caring about. People will still be able to look at their kills and deaths if they really want to, but the majority probably won't, as score's importance will be emphasized (did I spell that right?).

[Plunkies]

I know, right? How do you even argue with that when the subjective is presented as the objective?

First of all that post was made at the same minute as my post so I don't think that vague and useless comment is something you should be latching on to so quickly.

Second, I'm not sure if you understand what those words mean. Subjective would be "I don't like death stats" or "death stats cause me unnecessary stress." These things can change from person to person and exist within the mind. Death stats having an impact on overall gameplay is objective. There IS an effect. Saying there is no effect would be an objectively incorrect answer.

Scoring and stat systems are used because they have an impact on reality. Because they change the way people play and by using a scoring system you can influence actions you want to promote and deter from actions you don't. You lose points for teamkilling, you gain points for healing. It's not arbitrary. They're promoting specific types of gameplay. It has REAL influence. Look no further than Tribes players playing the generator mini-game instead of the flag to see how scoring systems can go wrong.

[Noxey]

I think it would be a mistake not having a k/d stat in PS2, we also need kills leader boards.

Also: farming spawns is sometimes more productive than blowing them as your enemy's are spawning into instant death and being forced to spawn all over again ;x

[Dart]

Guys I hate to be the bearer of bad/good tidings here but let me assure you that K:D, streaks and almost every other kind of stat tracking you can imagine is in PS2. In fact the Devs are so keen on it they're even creating an app for Android/iOS so you can track them from your iPad/tablet/smartphone.

If you don't like stat tracking, my profound advice is don't look at it.

Edit: Any chance we can get this entire thread locked or moved since it's now more ideological than anything and certainly not specific to the development of PS2.

[Timealude]

Guys I hate to be the bearer of bad/good tidings here but let me assure you that K:D, streaks and almost every other kind of stat tracking you can imagine is in PS2. In fact the Devs are so keen on it they're even creating an app for Android/iOS so you can track them from your iPad/tablet/smartphone.

If you don't like stat tracking, my profound advice is don't look at it.

Edit: Any chance we can get this entire thread locked or moved since it's now more ideological than anything and certainly not specific to the development of PS2.

I think what the op means is it makes so people wont advance forward, as in when your attacking a base you wont try to press in, like sending your heavy armored friends (MAXs) in to start clearing the room while your friends try to go for a control point of the objective. Now granted we only know a few of what the capture mechanics are going to be and it wont be like ps1 where we need to push forward through a hallway instead of trying to kill people while they keep spawning on the otherside to reenforce more. I dont see K:D being that big of a problem like it was in the original since the bases are spread out and there's no need to actually rush forward to a single control console.

[maradine]

Second, I'm not sure if you understand what those words mean. Subjective would be "I don't like death stats" or "death stats cause me unnecessary stress." These things can change from person to person and exist within the mind. Death stats having an impact on overall gameplay is objective. There IS an effect. Saying there is no effect would be an objectively incorrect answer.


Alas, were I only that ignorant.

The sentence that you have presented as objective is this:

"Death stats discourage teamplay" is a fact.

I argue that you have neither a statistical framework nor a sufficiently credible body of work to arrive at that conclusion. You can state it as a hypothesis, and provide reasonable arguments around it, but presenting it as a "fact" is not supported by any particular rigor. I agree with your conclusion, but your method is wanting. If you would like to further argue over the meaning of facts and opinions, I'm sure we can find a better venue for it.

Slightly more on-topic, I'd argue that KDR, presented as only one statistic among many, would have a minimal impact, whatever that might be. What is needed are additional metrics that we feel are valuable and should be emphasized, not subtraction of metrics we feel are not. If you feel that this strategy is implicitly catering to some sort of cultural "FPS least common denominator", you'd be absolutely correct. I am strongly of the opinion that the ivory tower team-play types need the zerg, the kill-whores, and every other subtype on the way for a survivable player-base.

[Gonefshn]

Couldn't agree more with the OP but I'm not crossing my fingers that this will resonate with the devs at all.

They want to provide what FPS gamers are expecting.
I always enjoy games more that don't feature K/D but that unfortunately doesn't resonate with most people.

[Envenom]

An opinion is something that varies based on a personal views. Example: Apple tastes good, flower smells bad, game is unfun. A fact is truth originating from experience, observation and evidence. "Death stats discourage teamplay" is a fact.

Jerk your knee back down, sit quietly, and try to think rationally for a moment. How can this be? Well, what could deaths do? OVERALL, they could have no effect, they could promote teamplay, or they could discourage teamplay. These are the three things that could happen. These are not opinions that vary from one person to another, like whether an apple tastes good or a flower smells funny. These are actual consequences resulting in a persistent death display. An individual may be effected differently, but the overall change can only be one of these.

So looking at the first option, it could have no effect on every single person. Meaning no change. We know from this thread alone that the overall effect will not be neutral. So now we're down to only two possible outcomes. Does it promote or discourage teamplay? At this point it should be common sense but since you keep spewing the word "opinion" like you're making a point, I'll just have to keep slowly explaining things to you.

How can showing deaths help teamplay? Well, there's really only two ways. The first, if dying subtracts from a team resource. Battlefield has a ticket count for example. If your team has tickets and you are not wasting them, you are indirectly helping the team. This isn't, however, active TEAMPLAY. This is just an indirect benefit. The other way to decrease deaths while helping your team is an overall increase of skill. But with no proof that KDR actually increases the average skill of the player with access to it, it can not be directly attributed to the KDR stat. You could make a similar argument that KDR reduces overall skill because players will take fewer risks resulting in less experience in situations that demand an increased skill level.

And finally, how does the death count discourage teamplay? Well the closer you get to an objective, the more likely you are to die. I've already posted my 4.8 k/d battlefield profile with minimal objective points. Objectives are meatgrinders with highly concentrated fighting often requiring a high risk of death to attempt to achieve the victory conditions or deny them from the opposing team. Logically, someone avoiding deaths would avoid these situations. Also, all support roles suddenly become less attractive as well. Only repairing or healing, driver seats with no guns, transport vehicles, etc. Not much of a KDR when your role never get kills. These are typically very team oriented tasks and anyone wanting a higher KDR would be wise to avoid them. In addition to this, KDR also promotes more SOLO activities that don't involve teamplay and might not help much at all. Vehicle pad camping, spawn camping, sniping. In BF specifically, most mortar and MAV abuse was a direct result of people trying to pad their stats. I can go on and on with more... Spawning on a squad is a very high risk of death often with little pay off. Switching to a class that your team needs more but you're less effective with is discouraged. Playing AA or AV if your weapons are more likely to only be a deterrent rather than something that will actually get a kill.

Here's a very important one. If you're losing, go somewhere else. Fighting losing battles gets you killed. Fighting outnumbered gets you killed. When your team needs you the most you have the least incentive to be there. Once again, persistent death stats actively discourage teamplay. It is not an opinion. It is a fact based on observation and logic. If you disagree with this then please give some reasoning behind it, because I've heard none so far.



You know, I've always been a huge advocate of K/D, but after reading this post I think you've changed my mind. Whenever I play BF I am acutely aware of my K/D and tend to avoid situations (and Rush gameplay in general) because of lowering that score. You've convinced me; particularly your last paragraph QFT. When the battle starts turning, you get out of there to save your K/D, when in reality that's when your team needs you most.

Well played good sir.

[Dart]

I think what the op means is it makes so people wont advance forward, as in when your attacking a base you wont try to press in, like sending your heavy armored friends (MAXs) in to start clearing the room while your friends try to go for a control point of the objective. Now granted we only know a few of what the capture mechanics are going to be and it wont be like ps1 where we need to push forward through a hallway instead of trying to kill people while they keep spawning on the otherside to reenforce more. I dont see K:D being that big of a problem like it was in the original since the bases are spread out and there's no need to actually rush forward to a single control console.

I fully understand what Malorn means. I understood when I read this thread in MARCH! My point is this has absolutely nothing to do with PS2 any more since these stats are such an integral part of the game that when you bring up the in game menu the first screen you see is your "character summary" which includes all of the statistics that you guys don't want to see tracked and many more besides.

Or to put it another way; it's over. Let it go. Pick your fights, you've lost this one.

[BlazingSun]

Is this discussion still going? I don't want to give anything away, but reaching a consensus is not going to happen.

[FireWater]

Well at the end of the day, stats are just numbers, people need to interpret them to achieve any meaning.

I totally get the meaning that there are in game behaviors that are valuable as kills. However, killing is a part of the game too, so I believe in my opinion it is important to list all valuable stats when making an assessment of a player. Stats to me show what I'm good at, and what I can improve upon. I'm the type of player who doesn't care who sees my mistakes because I am confident that my positive actions will outweigh my negative ones. However every player is different.

I think the main reason why a lot of players want KDR removed or hidden is because a fear of how that may impact their own gameplay, and gameplay overall for the game universe. That is an understandable point, however I would like to challenge that point.

I think KDR by itsself is meaningless. I think it needs to be added to a whole laundry list of other statistics. Its kind of like if you just judged a basketball player on how many points they score. Points are important, however its also important to look at Rebounds, Assists, steals, and block shots etc... to get a total idea of the player. Ben Wallace (professional basketball player) barely score 10 points game, however he also would pull down about 14 rebounds per game (anything in double digits for rebounds is AWESOME) and would often time hold the other team's best scorer under their average. If you just look at points, you would think Ben Wallace was below average at best. However when looking at his total stats, he becomes a defensive powerhouse, that would have been welcomed by any NBA team.

KDR to be an effective tool needs to be put in proper context, so that players can understand that there are other valuable behaviors other than gettings kills.

[Tatwi]

I don't think Kraft Dinner is that bad for gamers. I mean sure, too many carbs are bad if you're not getting an exercise at all, but I doubt the cheese sauce if going to kill you. Now the butter on the other hand, that's a different story. Lay off the butter if you're only running around inside video games!

[Sifer2]

I see this thread got necro'ed. I still agree with the original poster that K/D is not ideal for this type of game. I think it encourages the wrong behavior an worse actively discourages players from going somewhere on a map their faction is at a disadvantage. Or playing class's that are not great for getting kills.

I don't think it will be changed though. Cause I watched a Higby interview an he talked about how the stats are going to record everything. Even how many times you were killed by a particular player over the life of the game. Like when you die who you got killed by pops up and you see all that kind of stuff. Really reeks of session based arena shooter stuff to me. I think it will make the game community worse for it but I don't see them trashing all that work on the stats.

[The Degenatron]

Responding to the original post, first let me say that I agree on the surface. The gist is to promote team play and that to me is always a good thing.

However, Malorn, you contradict yourself when you say these things:

It has many paths to success - one path should not be glorified over others.

Deaths should not even be tracked - at all, ever.

Players should be encouraged to do whatever activities they are good at...

The idea that a stat should be removed totally and not shown to players goes against the notion of allowing players to choose their own path to success.

While I myself would rather track my progress based on ammo resupplies, repairs, and captures - another player may not. On the other side, I love playing as a Max, and what else is in the mind of a Max soldier than maximizing the number of kills while prolonging the use of their (possibly very expensive) Max armor - when I'm spraying death as a max unit, KDR is very important.

Snipers and Max specialist may be keenly attuned to their ability to kill-streak, cause maximum carnage, and survive. This also helps the team and is often the result of teamwork (Max's don't rampage long without an engineer). To arbitrarily remove at stat cuts these peoples metrics off and makes what would be a clear cut measure of performance in what could only be determined through a complex mathematical calculation.

You see, "Scores" greatest strength is also it's greatest weakness. It's like a gumbo, it may tastes delicious but you still don't know what's in it. It could take a player an hour to decipher what they were doing right two days ago that got a huge bump in score. And the weighting process itself is tricky. If you put a lot of weight on hacking a terminal to capture a base, then you'll have a mad dash to the terminal and no one watching the door. You could even get TKing to stop a friendly from performing the hack so that some jerk could get that score.

The point to all of this is simple: The mantra for the dev team has always been "We want you to play the way YOU want to play." Removing ANY stat simply because a group of people don't like seeing that stat cuts directly against that mantra. No one should be deciding how other players should measure their own success.

A better solution is to allow players to customize their own stats tracking. If you're an engineer, then you can put ammo supplies and repairs at the top of the screen in big bold text. If you're a sniper, you can put KDR at the top. This allows players to decide their own level of teamplay, their own level of success, and their increase their enjoyment to the max. Have the on-screen ques that promote "good behavior" plug into this customized, personalized stats tracking and display thing important to that player.

Another layer to this is that each class could come preset to a customized metric sheet. Players could then go in and tweak it to their liking. Just because a player is an infiltrator, maybe they don't want to snipe, and would rather sneak behind enemy lines to sabotage terminals. They could pull the default KDR off the top of the metrics tracking and place equipment destroyed on top. That's just one example on what could be endless combinations of metric tracking.

Again, I want to reiterate that on the whole I agree with your mentality, i just don't like the method you've chosen to promote as the solution.

[Malorn]

The idea that a stat should be removed totally and not shown to players goes against the notion of allowing players to choose their own path to success.

Deaths are not a success metric.

[GreatMazinkaise]

Deaths are not a success metric.

Assuming they're measuring your success rate 1v1 then yes they are.

[goneglockin]

I don't care much about K:D.

But I'm all in favor of having a end-of-the-round style scoreboard that can be accessed in-game for all the participants in a single base cap.

That would make me hard.

[Malorn]

Assuming they're measuring your success rate 1v1 then yes they are.

By that logic a kill measures the same thing.

[The Degenatron]

Deaths are not a success metric.

But KDR is. And simply because it's not the way you or I would measure our own success, that's not a reason to remove the ability to track it from the game totally.

With the dev's wall of data being provided to external websites, it's conceivable you could have a website called "Planetside Deathmatch" which shows ONLY Kills, Deaths, KDR, and Kill Streaks on a leaderboard.

The idea probably gives you fits, but it is possible, and for some players a really cool idea.

To each their own.

Frankly, I'm not worried about players who are playing like that. They will watch as coordinated Outfits roll past, tear shit up, and roll out victorious.

[GreatMazinkaise]

By that logic a kill measures the same thing.

Actually, the combination of the two is required; if your K/D is > 1 in 1v1 fights you're a better grunt than someone that has a K/D significantly less than 1.

A squad of K/D 1+ is gonna be able to better take and hold points and repel forces of greater size. 1v1 K/D marks the difference between elites and zerglings.

[Katanauk]

I like my K/D/A stats, tells me if I'm playing well or not. same with Planetside 1, I always looked to my K/D/A and for me that told me how I was playing.

My assists were rarely from repairing, msotly driving, so they gave me an actual feel for how I was doing, as opposed to getting 200 assists from an AMS.


I like my stats.

[Malorn]

Instead of arguing with monkeys I'm going to be productive here and offer you all an example of how stats are currently shown in PlanetSide 2 and the huge weight kill-stats and specifically K/D is weighted.

Before anyone freaks out about tech test violations, all of these images are from publically released videos.

For these shots I used the TotalBiscuit video w/ commentary from Matt Higby (the one where Kevmo is playing), and the E3 Day 3 video where Purrfect walks us through the stats screens. Simple captures from there.

Ok, let us begin.


First, the default player screen. This is the screen you see when you look at your player profile in game. What do you see?
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/67666222/statsummaryhighlighted.png

On this screen we see prominently displayed - kills, deaths, and K/D occupy the center-most locations, with "score" on the right side.

The only nice thing in this is at least the Daily Score Leaderboard is in a more focused position than the Daily Kills Leaderboard.

From looking at this screen alone what the devs are telling me the player is that Kills, Deaths, and K/D are the most important stats. Score is still up there, but that's the only stat that might reflect anything other than personal kills and my ability to get them without putting myself in harm's way.


Next screen. The stats page.
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/67666222/statshighlighted.png

With apologies to the colorblind I have conveniently color-coded areas of interest. Green are things which reflect possible teamwork, while the Red reflects purely selfish stats.

As is plainly visible, the very top of the screen (which remains through most of the tabs), the two most prominent stats are Score Per Minute (SPM) and K/D Ratio. SPM is great, but why does the game elevate K/D to such importance? That sends the message to players that one of the two stats that matters most in PlanetSide is K/D, which is ridiculous.

Next we have in the middle of the screen a tab whose default showing appears to be Kills, showing me my kills, longest killstreak, and daily, weekly, and monthly kill counts. Not terribly bad in its own right, but the default nature of this is poor, and there are no territory/capture stats at all showing how good this player is at capturing territory, or reviving teammates or anything other than the Score aggregate (which is a good aggregator).

At the bottom in overall stats we have a list, which unsurprisingly starts with the selfish killstats first, and only then does it list the more teamwork oriented stats of assists, base captures, and score.

It's important to point out that the only territory-control related stat that appears here is WAAAAY down at the bottom with nothing else of relevance. No repair amount, no healed amount show up either.

It's the same sort of shit you'd see in a session shooter. No teamwork emphasis, no playing-the-objective emphasis - no sir, kills, deaths, and K/D are the most important things here.

The only saving grace is that SPM is elevated to a prominent position at the top. That's good. But then they ruin it by putting K/D right next it it in almost equal standing.


Last, lets look at one of the class breakdown pages.
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/67666222/stats2highlighted.png

What we see here is so sad its comical. The top of the screen shows stat sumamry with "Most Kills" and "Best K/D Ratio" listed at the top. Because Best K/D ratio is clearly why someone plays a medic, amirite? Where did SPM go? Why not show off the class where you earn the highest Score Per Minute? It was prominently displayed before, where did it go?

Score is still shown, and so is SPM, in the individual class sections. Score is there, and so is SPM, but SPM appears after we look at Kills, Headshots, Deaths, and K/D ratio. Clearly the PlanetSide 2 dev team thinks these stats are important.

Where are the stats for most control console captures? What about territory captures? What about resource accrual? What about revive stats, and heal stats, and repair stats? Where are ASSISTS?


The stats for this game are horribly skewed towards cultivating selfish killswhore stats and do nothing to promote teamwork stats or objective-based-play. These stat screen is a perfect example of everything wrong with gaming culture right now. The only thing that keeps it from being a complete pile of shit is the prominence of "Score per minute" in a few places, and score in others. The rest of it just encourages people to play solo, ignore objectives, ignore teammates, and find the most efficient way to kill people, regardless of everything else going on. Encouraging that type of player behavior will doom planetside.

The way PS2 handles stats is the biggest mistake they are making in the game. Depraved disregard of the power of stats and the impact it will have on player behavior.

[GreatMazinkaise]

The stats for this game are horribly skewed towards cultivating selfish killswhore stats and do nothing to promote teamwork stats or objective-based-play. These stat screen is a perfect example of everything wrong with gaming culture right now. The only thing that keeps it from being a complete pile of shit is the prominence of "Score per minute" in a few places, and score in others. The rest of it just encourages people to play solo, ignore objectives, ignore teammates, and find the most efficient way to kill people, regardless of everything else going on. Encouraging that type of player behavior will doom planetside.

Explain how.

What I'm seeing here is that bad killwhores that also happen to have brain damage will fail to win at Planetside. The good killwhores that are not brain damaged and play the objectives as well will proceed to beat the the bad killwhores while simultaneously farming the bad "teamplayers" who have poor K/D. Sounds like everyone wins barring the bads.

[Shadowrath]

I disagree. Recording deaths makes people think about self preservation, like people do IRL.

TL;DR

[Malorn]

Explain how.

What I'm seeing here is that bad killwhores that also happen to have brain damage will fail to win at Planetside. The good killwhores that are not brain damaged and play the objectives as well will proceed to beat the the bad killwhores while simultaneously farming the bad "teamplayers" who have poor K/D. Sounds like everyone wins barring the bads.

I just did.
http://www.planetside-universe.com/showpost.php?p=798683&postcount=493

The prominence of stats reinforces what is important, and what is important shapes behavior.

To put it in simple terms so you can understand - the death stat makes you look bad. You will avoid that stat. In avoiding that stat you change the way you behave in the game. If the stat didn't exist, you would behave differently.

The problem is exacerbated by the stats the devs choose to elevate and display prominently, as illustrated in the post you quoted, so you must not have read it.

[Accuser]

I just did.
http://www.planetside-universe.com/showpost.php?p=798683&postcount=493

The prominence of stats reinforces what is important, and what is important shapes behavior.

I really hope some Devs check out that link, great analysis.

[Tatwi]

The stats for this game are horribly skewed towards cultivating selfish killswhore stats and do nothing to promote teamwork stats or objective-based-play. These stat screen is a perfect example of everything wrong with gaming culture right now. The only thing that keeps it from being a complete pile of shit is the prominence of "Score per minute" in a few places, and score in others. The rest of it just encourages people to play solo, ignore objectives, ignore teammates, and find the most efficient way to kill people, regardless of everything else going on. Encouraging that type of player behavior will doom planetside.

The way PS2 handles stats is the biggest mistake they are making in the game. Depraved disregard of the power of stats and the impact it will have on player behavior.

This is true. It's just human nature (operand conditioning in action). You're right that they are playing into a counter productive part of our nature by displaying narcissistic stats with such emphasis.

It's the problem with most of these computer games these days, where every player is supposed to be "the great hero" of the universe. Makes me want to puke.

I have no idea why the SOE folks would want to jeopardize the "combat on a massive scale" aspect of PS2 by slanting the emotional feedback toward antisocial killwhoring. Especially considering that without players there isn't a game to play at all. Eventually the majority of people will get bored of being farmed by the killwhores and they'll stop playing. Welcome to Planetside 1's tiny population.

There are just too many other games (and things to do) out there to NOT emphasize community building game play over all else. Planetside 2 needs a strong community more than it needs any other aspect of its development. Period.

Why?

Because 100% of the game play requires other people.

[Malorn]

This is true. It's just human nature (operand conditioning in action). You're right that they are playing into a counter productive part of our nature by displaying narcissistic stats with such emphasis.

It's the problem with most of these computer games these days, where every player is supposed to be "the great hero" of the universe. Makes me want to puke.

I have no idea why the SOE folks would want to jeopardize the "combat on a massive scale" aspect of PS2 by slanting the emotional feedback toward antisocial killwhoring. Especially considering that without players there isn't a game to play at all. Eventually the majority of people will get bored of being farmed by the killwhores and they'll stop playing. Welcome to Planetside 1's tiny population.

There are just too many other games (and things to do) out there to NOT emphasize community building game play over all else. Planetside 2 needs a strong community more than it needs any other aspect of its development. Period.

Why?

Because 100% of the game play requires other people.

I think this may be the most beautiful, elegant, and insightful post I have ever seen on these forums. Thank you for this!

[BuzzCutPsycho]

I am also willing to bet there will be better games for kill farming and KDR tracking.

[GreatMazinkaise]

I just did.
http://www.planetside-universe.com/showpost.php?p=798683&postcount=493

The prominence of stats reinforces what is important, and what is important shapes behavior.

To put it in simple terms so you can understand - the death stat makes you look bad. You will avoid that stat. In avoiding that stat you change the way you behave in the game. If the stat didn't exist, you would behave differently.

The problem is exacerbated by the stats the devs choose to elevate and display prominently, as illustrated in the post you quoted, so you must not have read it.

I did read it... I just drew different conclusions. If you're paying so much attention to K/D that you fail to play aggressively or to the objectives, then you're an idiot and you will not ultimately be victorious in the grand scheme of things. If you ignore it entirely you're committing a similar error; if your K/D isn't getting better then you're not getting better and you've become a burden to your team.

You can't force players to be useful to their team by de-emphasizing K/D. They'll decide that for themselves.

[Jakkar]

Simple agreement. As a PS1 vet I know we will rely upon a solid flow of reinforcements to hold a point or push into a base effectively - when a kill to death ratio is recognised and tracked players feel shy of the risk of dying, and will refuse to be the first man through the door, while specialising in long range weapons that keep them out of the shit.

Game design is essentially understanding and manipulating player psychology - there's more than enough evidence to be certain k/d ratio recognition influences players to more self-protective, less team-oriented attitudes to combat.