Opinions on Squad Spawning

[Ragotag]

After reading the many posts in the "Likes, Dislikes" thread concerning the GDC videos, it appears that this specific feature has received a lot of "Disliikes", and I'm curious as to why.

My understanding of how squad spawning is currently implemented (and please correct me if I my information is dated or wrong on this) is:

It is an ability that only a squad leader can use/activate (squad members cannot activate it).
It requires some amount advancement down a "Leadership" CERT tree (not every squad leader will have this ability).
The ability will be on a timer.
It can only be used outdoors.
It is not instantaneous (uses drop pods).
It can be used as a OSOK weapon (verse Infantry only?) assuming that the target stands still long enough.

[Ragotag]

This is certainly not the same kind of squad spawning that is implemented in normal or even hardcore BF3; based on the above, this is a new beast altogether and I like it. It is also balanced in that a drop pod will give away the squad/squad leader's approximate location; and if not done in a safe location (behind cover), it will place the spawned squadmate at extreme risk of inst-death from concentrated fire.

[VanuMAXGuy]

The way you described is fine.

But what I saw in the GDC footage was BF3 styled: spawn on any squad member instantly, anywhere, which is BAD

[DayOne]

Sounds about right to me. I have no problem with this so long as it is in drop pods. I don't this the HART is back so this is basically the new one.

EDIT:

The way you described is fine.

But what I saw in the GDC footage was BF3 styled: spawn on any squad member instantly, anywhere, which is BAD

It's because the drop pods are not yet implemented, they did say this. It's just a place holder for now.

[Synapses]

I honestly think that this was just implemented this way for the demo.

Why do I say that?

Because Higs and others doing interview keep saying its going to be more drop pod type of a deal.

I dont agree with people being able to squad spawn inside buildings, so I will stick to hoping for just the drop pod idea, I think it works best. As well as a cool down time on it so there isnt raining drop pods every few seconds lol.. God knows im going to die a lot.

Put a two minute cool down timer on it imo.

[wasdie]

As long as it is why you described it. If squad spawning would work like Battlefield 2, there would be very little point to capture points and whatnot.

[Death2All]

As long as it's implemented in all the ways you mentioned I'd be fine with, tenfold if we're able to shoot the drop pods down or instantly kill them the second they emerge from the pod.


In the demo, they were instantly spawning on everyone, but I think that was just for presentation purposes because they hadn't yet implemented the system yet.


But anyone who plays BF knows how lame it is when you kill 5 guys and one manages to stay alive and then a few seconds later the whole squad spawns back. LAMENESS.


But like I said, so long as it's implemented properly I have no issue with it.

[Gelnika]

I'd honestly have to see it in beta to make an informed decision. Squad leader spawns are more squishy and temporary than say, a Galaxy spawn.

If the issues of BF2/BF3 style squad spawning can be eliminated (people magically appearing, never-ending wave of guys etc.), then I am for this. In the meantime I will not vote.

[Shogun]

that´s a clear "wait for beta" thing for me

[Ragotag]

Squad leader spawns are more squishy and temporary than say, a Galaxy spawn.

That's a good point too... this changes the squad dynamic a bit in that the squad leader needs to stay alive for this to be useful and the squad needs to do their best to keep the squad leader alive so they can drop (spawn) back in.

[ThGlump]

How it was described in Q&A as having steerable drop pod that could kill ppl feels weird. I suppose that what was shown in demo wasnt proper squad spawning but some temporal bf3 style spawning.

I have problem with squad spawn in general as spawn points (ams) was always important part of equipment that you needed to get rid of if you wanted to progress. With squad spawn it would be harder to push someone back even if you get rid of their spawns.
And it could be abused as fast travel around map (fp2 cloakers near every base) as you can spawn on any member of squad it you train it high enough.

[Top Sgt]

Spawn on SL with the correct (cert) for it only and it's fine to me

I don't prefer the new noobed up way Dice did it with BF Spawn on any squad member.. already 10 guys in a squad etc there should be a penalty in dying.. you have to work to get back to your group if no forward spawn is available.

[Skittles]

Watched other videos of SL squad spawning. DO NOT like it. As long as a SL is alive you'll never ever get rid of enemies in your SOI. Just keep rotating SL. They could have 100 skills in SL, it doesnt matter. We KNOW what skills to take and 95 of those skills wont be taken if everyone knows take "Spawn On ME" skill is the skill to take. Just like HA-skeet-med-hacking in PS1 was THE tree to take for easy killing in towers.

Its cheesy really. As long as someone from a 10man squad is alive you'll never get them out of your SOI from the videos from GDC I saw.

[Ragotag]

And it could be abused as fast travel around map (fp2 cloakers near every base) as you can spawn on any member of squad it you train it high enough.

If this is the stated design of it, then I would agree with you. What I wrote is very different and would not allow for this.

[Ragotag]

Its cheesy really. As long as someone from a 10man squad is alive you'll never get them out of your SOI from the videos from GDC I saw.

From the videos I would agree with you; however, I'm going by what the Dev's have stated verses what they demo'd in an Alpha build.

[Lord Cosine]

I actually really like it. However the drop-pod aspect is the deciding feature. without that I would fully detest this. Essentially PS1 style drop-pods onto squad-leaders from the spawn select screen sounds like it could be pretty cool to me.

However if the drop pod was replaced something akin to instant squad spawning then I would be completely against this.

[VioletZero]

that´s a clear "wait for beta" thing for me

Although I'd typically agree, my knee jerk reaction says that this will undermine the supply line aspect.

[Ragotag]

I don't prefer the new noobed up way Dice did it with BF Spawn on any squad member...

Neither do I. If they limit it to drop pods called in by the acting squad leader, *if* said squad has the CERT'ed ability to do so, then I think it self balances.

IMO, the BF3 style squad spawning is absolutely ridiculous. It get's you killed more often than not (spawning into the line of fire) and makes it easy for your opponent to wipe out an entire squad if not used smartly. Not to mention the silliness of materializing out of thin air.

[Raymac]

I really really LOVE the way Higby described it, being steerable drop pods. Sounds like alot of fun.

The only question I have for the devs would be, why would you not ALWAYS squad spawn? Why spawn at a Galaxy when you can just drop down? If they don't balance that out, spawning any other way will become obsolete quickly.

[Gelnika]

The only question I have for the devs would be, why would you not ALWAYS squad spawn? Why spawn at a Galaxy when you can just drop down? If they don't balance that out, spawning any other way will become obsolete quickly.

That's my concern as well. As someone who aspires to be a master Galaxy pilot, I don't want my efforts to be trivialized because of the squad spawn mechanic.

[Ragotag]

Perhaps this is a clarification question for the Dev's because it would make huge difference in people's perception of this feature:

Do squad members initiate a squad spawn if the squad leader has the ability, or does the squad leader with the ability initiate the squad spawn if requested by a squad member assuming a squad spawn countdown timer has reached zero?

(I would hope for the latter.)

[Atuday]

I like how they are planning on using it. Outside only and with drop pods. This seems effective and fair.

[megamold]

from what ive heard higby mentioned something about some sort of timer.
no info on how exactly that timer will work, maybe only 1 squad spawn per person every 10 minutes or maybe a max of 2 spawns a minute or something like that.

i think they are trying to make the squad spawn an option for those occasions when you and your squad go do some flanking or whatever, and 1 person dies.
so that person can spawn on the squad again instead of several km's out and continue battling with his friends.
if thats the case then i am 100% up for it :)

[Shade Millith]

I was fine with it, on the proviso of

1) MUST be a large, flashy drop pod that SCREAMS out "I AM HERE, SQUAD LEADER IS HERE" There can be nothing stealthy about this. (Apparently this is checked)

2) MUST not be within a base. Outside or inside. Needs to act like the old base SOI. Within that area, you cannot drop. (I'm still worried about this one. They've said 'no indoors', but there's a large amount of area in a base that is not indoors. These areas should not be spawnable in either, unless from a galaxy)

I'm also very worried about the timer. I'd say at least 30seconds to one full minute between drop pods. I would prefer around 5 minutes though. Dying needs to mean something, and it can't be this constant recycling of spawn-kill-die-spawn-kill-die like BF.

Infantry Squad spawning cannot be the same way it works in BF2-3. They had abysmal systems that did pretty serious damage to making people work together.

[Ragotag]

FYI:

Matthew Higby Tweet (@mhigby):
We had respawn timers disabled for the demo. No, you won't be able to instantly respawn like that.

[dowmein]

This is certainly not the same kind of squad spawning that is implemented in normal or even hardcore BF3; based on the above, this is a new beast altogether and I like it. It is also balanced in that a drop pod will give away the squad/squad leader's approximate location; and if not done in a safe location (behind cover), it will place the spawned squadmate at extreme risk of inst-death from concentrated fire.


They did that in BF2142.

It was the best thing ever.

[Malorn]

I'm indifferent. We didn't have it in PS1 and I think it went fine, but they're also trying ti speed up pacing and help us spend less time running back to the fight and more time enjoying it. Squad spawning will help with that. But I'm also not entirely a fan of how its been implemented in other games.

I liked the squad-spawn mechanic from BF2142, where the squad leader could place a spawn beacon on the ground and anyone in the squad could spawn on it. Its limited to just a squad and it's a static location, and it's something that the enemy could find/destroy, so I think that sort of thing could work well.

Its something I would have to see first hand and experience in beta to see whether it truly fits or is out of place/needs tuning.

[Whalenator]

I'm indifferent. We didn't have it in PS1 and I think it went fine, but they're also trying ti speed up pacing and help us spend less time running back to the fight and more time enjoying it. Squad spawning will help with that. But I'm also not entirely a fan of how its been implemented in other games.

I liked the squad-spawn mechanic from BF2142, where the squad leader could place a spawn beacon on the ground and anyone in the squad could spawn on it. Its limited to just a squad and it's a static location, and it's something that the enemy could find/destroy, so I think that sort of thing could work well.

Its something I would have to see first hand and experience in beta to see whether it truly fits or is out of place/needs tuning.

BF2142 reference = +5 Respect
Neutrality = +2 Respect
New Conglomerate = +7 Respect
"Wait until Beta" = +5 Respect
Wrote Manifesto = +15 Respect
:lol:

On a note more directly related to the topic I express an opinion similiar to Malorn's. Although beacons would be preferable, the drop pods are an interesting innovation; the advantage of rapid troop insertion is traded off with the equal disadvantage of having to give away one's position.

[Ragotag]

I liked the squad-spawn mechanic from BF2142, where the squad leader could place a spawn beacon on the ground and anyone in the squad could spawn on it.

I really like this idea, plus there are many ways that this could be balanced in the game: CERTS or hard limits could be set on spawn countdown timer duration, the number of spawns allowed on a given beacon, the radius around which the drop pod could land, make it destructible, make it a single use deployable (once deployed, it's deployed -- can't be moved or retrieved), or even make it a resource consumable... so many ways.

[...regarding Malorn...]
BF2142 reference = +5 Respect
Neutrality = +2 Respect
New Conglomerate = +7 Respect
"Wait until Beta" = +5 Respect
Wrote Manifesto = +15 Respect


LOL... no arguing with that!