New Killcam Info via Higby [Archive]

Hamma

2012-03-08, 01:53 PM

Consolidating discussions so everyone has the most up to date information.

Two new Tweets via Higby:

The killcam in the game right now is not the intended final implementation. We ALMOST removed them for the demo, actually.
http://twitter.com/#!/mhigby/statuses/177827451127341057

re: killcam I'd like to build it to be a UI w/ 3d view of your killer (not in world) and shows stats like the LoL "death recap"
http://twitter.com/#!/mhigby/statuses/177828533345861632

Discuss!

Crator

2012-03-08, 01:54 PM

Yes! What I always imagined it should be!

Hydra

2012-03-08, 01:55 PM

Phew

Aractain

2012-03-08, 01:55 PM

Yeah thats what I wanted.

Raymac

2012-03-08, 01:55 PM

Can we now please do away with the myth that the devs don't pay attention?

Bags

2012-03-08, 01:56 PM

I'm completely okay with this.

Like okay^3. Maybe ^4.

Alduron

2012-03-08, 01:57 PM

Sounds a lot better than it is now.
Someone suggested that we have a "virtual simulation" of the kill so that it doesn't give away the actual position (for people who like to see how they died).

DayOne

2012-03-08, 01:58 PM

Sounds a lot better than it is now.
Someone suggested that we have a "virtual simulation" of the kill so that it doesn't give away the actual position (for people who like to see how they died).

I support this but so long as the killcam doesn't give away positions that's okay with me.

Coreldan

2012-03-08, 01:58 PM

I'm cool with the "ideal implementation", just give us a decent amount of time to see ourselves while dead/around us to judge if we get a res or not.

Or then dont change the view anywhere, just put the "3d model" and info as a layer on the "normal screen" instead of it switching to a whole new screen which makes you unable to see the place where you died.

Alduron

2012-03-08, 01:59 PM

Can we now please do away with the myth that the devs don't pay attention?

The PS2 devs are the best listeners I've ever encountered. I don't know of another game that has as much dev interaction as they do with us.

Gortha

2012-03-08, 01:59 PM

Good to hear.

No Kill Cam!

Bags

2012-03-08, 02:00 PM

The PS2 devs are the best listeners I've ever encountered. I don't know of another game that has as much dev interaction as they do with us.

This.

TotoDestroy

2012-03-08, 02:00 PM

I'm glad they're listening, but I hope this doesn't turn into a game where they're too passionate,and every time they hear a good idea they have to implement it and thus drag out development time.

ringring

2012-03-08, 02:01 PM

It's great to know higby et al are listening and acting.

Shogun

2012-03-08, 02:02 PM

will this UI killer-cam be in addition to a corpsecam?

no corpsecam at all would harm the reviving medics. and the support classes have been losing more than enough functionality by now.

but hellyeah for killing the killcam like it was in the demo.

waldizzo

2012-03-08, 02:02 PM

The PS2 devs are the best listeners I've ever encountered. I don't know of another game that has as much dev interaction as they do with us.

Agreed. The amount of interaction between the development team and us is amazing. It is very much appreciated.

Death2All

2012-03-08, 02:03 PM

Thank you so much Higby and all the PS2 devs.

It would've been an abomination if a killcam was in the game. Especially the one implemented at GDC. I actually yelled "yuck" when I first saw it.

As everyone else has said, thanks a ton of listening. It's really a breathe of fresh air considering how much devs keep to themselves and shit a product out whether or not the community is in favor of the features added or not. You guys rock!

Vancha

2012-03-08, 02:06 PM

I still prefer my implementation...

No, but this is awesome. Thank you.

Duddy

2012-03-08, 02:08 PM

I don't mind it, just not in the form they have it there.

If it was just an "informational" kill cam, i.e. no locational cues just their character model against a shaded background with information about the killer, then I think it'd be a great addition.

Quoting myself from the other thread.

Seeing as what Higby seems to be describing is exactly what I would prefer... I approve!

Alduron

2012-03-08, 02:08 PM

I'm glad they're listening, but I hope this doesn't turn into a game where they're too passionate,and every time they hear a good idea they have to implement it and thus drag out development time.

I don't see that happening. This was something that 99% of people disliked, and something they were thinking about removing anyway. There are going to be certain features that the community will have a lot of input on, and others that we will have no say in. :)

UnknownDT

2012-03-08, 02:09 PM

Great news. You're a pro PS2 Dev team.

Angry Beaver

2012-03-08, 02:12 PM

You've gotta have a player feedback loop that explains and details your death, if it's not the player gets frustrated at the lack of 'justification' for their deaths rises and with rising frustration you loose players. ( a golden rule is to make every death feel like the players fault not the game being shitty)

I can understand some problems with perfectly revealing someone's location, but a general implication of the direction is a must otherwise the information about death is incomplete and you end up building that frustration again.

duomaxwl

2012-03-08, 02:13 PM

Woot!

Sent from my SCH-I500 using Tapatalk

Graywolves

2012-03-08, 02:13 PM

Rather see the area of my corpse.

Bags

2012-03-08, 02:14 PM

You've gotta have a player feedback loop that explains and details your death, if it's not there players frustration at the 'justification' of their deaths rises and with rising frustration you loose players.

I can understand some problems with perfectly revealing someone's location, but a general implication of the direction is a must otherwise the information about death is incomplete and you end up building that frustration again.

I've never heard anyone complain about "Not know who killed them" in planetside 1

Angry Beaver

2012-03-08, 02:16 PM

I've never heard anyone complain about "Not know who killed them" in planetside 1

That's because the game's pace is slow enough for you to see it coming. With a faster paced game that problem increases.

Xaine

2012-03-08, 02:19 PM

Sounds great.

As long as it doesn't give away position or give any intel etc, thats fine.

Thank you for listening.

ThGlump

2012-03-08, 02:20 PM

That's because the game's pace is slow enough for you to see it coming. With a faster paced game that problem increases.

So to counter bad game mechanic you need to to introduce even worse one? If its hard to tell how you died due fast pace of game, make it slower (like anyone like to be instakilled)

Raymac

2012-03-08, 02:20 PM

I've never heard anyone complain about "Not know who killed them" in planetside 1

Are you kidding me, Bags? You expect me to believe you never had a "WTF just killed me?" moment in PS1? It would happen to me every single time I played. The sheer scale and chaos means that there are many times where you get blindsided or sometimes just get plain old unlucky. Even with the kill spam and deathcam, I would still be left wondering.

It's nice to have an answer to "WTF just happened?"

Bags

2012-03-08, 02:23 PM

Are you kidding me, Bags? You expect me to believe you never had a "WTF just killed me?" moment in PS1? It would happen to me every single time I played. The sheer scale and chaos means that there are many times where you get blindsided or sometimes just get plain old unlucky. Even with the kill spam and deathcam, I would still be left wondering.

It's nice to have an answer to "WTF just happened?"

No because it's obvious.

Tank shells are distinct, sniper sounds distinct, flail... etc I have never not known what killed me.

Oh well, unfortunately for you no video kill cam.

Angry Beaver

2012-03-08, 02:24 PM

So to counter bad game mechanic you need to to introduce even worse one? If its hard to tell how you died due fast pace of game, make it slower (like anyone like to be instakilled)

So what you walk out into a hallway facing the wrong way cause your a n00b and get shot in the back by 5 people and instantly get killed and that's a 'bad mechanic'? Allowing players to one shot each other sounds like a bad mechanic too right, but then doesn't that nerf snipers? You can't be so broad about these things.

Players need feedback as to what went wrong so they don't feel like their loss was abitrary. Giving away the killers position 100%, maybe a little too much info.

Raymac

2012-03-08, 02:26 PM

No because it's obvious.

Tank shells are distinct, sniper sounds distinct, flail... etc I have never not known what killed me.

Oh well, unfortunately for you no video kill cam.

No, guy. Obviously if you look at the kill spam you will know "what" killed you. But that doesn't always answer the question of "WTF just happened?" Comprende?

BTW, I like Higby's virtual kill cam idea, so no unfortunates needed.

ringring

2012-03-08, 02:26 PM

I've never heard anyone complain about "Not know who killed them" in planetside 1

You have never been shot in the back?

Angry Beaver

2012-03-08, 02:26 PM

No because it's obvious.

Tank shells are distinct, sniper sounds distinct, flail... etc I have never not known what killed me.

Oh well, unfortunately for you no video kill cam.

Every single last attack in a game like LOL has distinct sounds so you should totally eb able to figure it out. yet they take the time to tell you because it gets hectic and confusing and because some people don't notice everything and if you want a game with broad appeal you've got to appeal broadly. And lets face it on a freemium model you've gotta have a broad appeal to stand a chance of getting the $$ in the door.

Bags

2012-03-08, 02:27 PM

You have never been shot in the back?

I have but I don't see how that's relevant? Or how an after death kill cam on your opponent fixes this.

Every single last attack in a game like LOL has distinct sounds so you should totally eb able to figure it out. yet they take the time to tell you because it gets hectic and confusing and because some people don't notice everything and if you want a game with broad appeal you've got to appeal broadly. And lets face it on a freemium model you've gotta have a broad appeal to stand a chance of getting the $$ in the door.

League of legends doesn't lock your camera on your killer.

Mastachief

2012-03-08, 02:28 PM

As long as this killcam does not show the killers position/surroundings i'm happy, any one supporting the idea of traditional kill cams based on player education as to why they died need to man up and not be a n00bs. Killcams support the stupid.

Angry Beaver

2012-03-08, 02:30 PM

I have but I don't see how that's relevant? Or how an after death kill cam on your opponent fixes this.

League of legends doesn't lock your camera on your killer.

But it tells you who did it and allows you to look around during your death. I've stated before that maybe locking onto the guy who shot you and 100% revelaing their position is not the best choice. There's mid steps between that and a pure info dump and I'm trying to push for one of those rather than the 'no kill cam, bad' crowd I'm hearing vocalized.

Bags

2012-03-08, 02:31 PM

But it tells you who did it and allows you to look around during your death. I've stated before that maybe locking onto the guy who shot you and 100% revelaing their position is not the best choice. There's mid steps between that and a pure info dump and I'm trying to push for one of those rather than the 'no kill cam, bad' crowd I'm hearing vocalized.

I have no problem with showing you the damage break down ala lol, which is what higby just said they are doing.

Angry Beaver

2012-03-08, 02:33 PM

I have no problem with showing you the damage break down ala lol, which is what higby just said they are doing.

but that's what I have a minor issue with, nothing but a pure info dump of 'who shot you how much' seems a little flat to me and I'd like something more like a free look or directing the camera in the ~ direction w/o zooming in or anything. Something more than just some numbered stats.

TheRagingGerbil

2012-03-08, 02:35 PM

This is a good fix.

You know I always thought the rotating death cam of PS1 was kinda cheap too. I could just watch where the enemy was shooting from or ran off to and warn my squadmates. Always felt it should be like a down on the floor, sideways, blurry/blinking image or something. But oh well.

DaddyTickles

2012-03-08, 02:37 PM

Awwww, I love higby.

Good catch, Treebeard.

Tatwi

2012-03-08, 02:39 PM

Sounds OK to me. Something in the spirit of community, but not at the expense of strategy is great.

Bags

2012-03-08, 02:47 PM

I feel if you mess up you don't really deserve much free intel.

Raymac

2012-03-08, 02:50 PM

I feel if you mess up you don't really deserve much free intel.

God forbid new players have as many ways to improve as possible.

Graywolves

2012-03-08, 02:50 PM

Using a killcam to teach a player is like doing your son's science fair project.

He has no idea how it was finished and will just use you for everything related to science in the future.

Players need to be encouraged to practice a situational awareness.

And yes, even with quick kills it is VERY VERY VERY easy to tell how you died. If you were amid chaos and getting hit all over, you were in a bad location and EVERYTHING came down on you. Shot from behind? It's not like the game doesn't have a system that goes "hey you're taking damage from this direction" and in Planetside 1 you would most likely still see the bullets being fired into as you entered death animation.

Killcam doesn't tell you "how" it tells you "who and where" Don't fill in the blanks for it because plenty of us with the experience can fill in all the blanks with no information "handed" to us.

LightningNoob

2012-03-08, 02:52 PM

I wish they would just get rid of kill cams and show the corpse cam (like PS1).

Then take those hours budgeted for kill cams, and assign them to vehicle entry/exit animations! I absolutely hate the BF3 style instant entry/exit of vehicles. It's so unrealistic... just pisses me off!! :mad:

Dahlian

2012-03-08, 02:57 PM

Higby's killcam ideas are intruiging, gives you info and allow the enemy to taunt you without revealing his or others location. =)

Angry Beaver

2012-03-08, 03:01 PM

Using a killcam to teach a player is like doing your son's science fair project.

He has no idea how it was finished and will just use you for everything related to science in the future...

Diasgree:
It's like being told you failed an assignment but the teacher won't explain how you lost marks. Anyone who really knows what they're doing looks at the test and goes "of course I lost marks there" the ones who're still learning go "wtf" This is a system to help explain your death in full, explaining it in part doesn't help you learn and prevent the same mistakes. Maybe some-ones not going to realize it was a bad location until they die there 5 times and be like "oh hey enemies can surround that spot"

Simply showing the enemies location is bad, we all agree.
We want stats, we all agree.

If we just get stats I'll be all right but a little disappointed, what we're arguing over is the extent to which we show where your death came from.

I think just pointing it in the general direction would be vague enough. If you couldn't see from where you died what killed you, you at least know enemies are coming form over there so you can better in the future. Your a sniper/cloaker hiding out, your still hidden.

QuiCKaNdDeaDLy

2012-03-08, 03:02 PM

Graywolves

2012-03-08, 03:07 PM

Maybe some-ones not going to realize it was a bad location until they die there 5 times and be like "oh hey enemies can surround that spot"

As I said, it's more important for players to learn that they need situational awareness and how to assess their surroundings rather than be straight up told what is going on.

A VR training scenario or player insight might provide this. But in Planetside 2 you're not going to learn anything you wouldn't learn otherwise. As I said, you already know where you were being damaged from so you have the directions. If you can't figure at the direction when you die then the problems are outside of the game itself and are in more basic mechanics such as looking at the screen correctly.

Killcam tells you that this guy killed you from the bushes over there. You still don't know what YOU did wrong or how YOU can improve. Instead you are probably going to run into bushes and try to get the jump on players until the meta-game turns into "light up every bush I see" across every player.

What Kill Cams tell you is something every player with a sense of situational awareness will have. That you need to look around more and not develop tunnel vision(which is very easy in an FPS).

EVILoHOMER

2012-03-08, 03:09 PM

Mastachief

2012-03-08, 03:22 PM

I still don't see why people are fussed about their location being told to one player they've killed in a game as vast as Planetside 2. SOE should experiment, put it into planetside to see what impact it has on the game, I bet it has none what so ever.

I just don't get peoples reasoning, lets not count out a feature before we've played the game.

10 guys stealthing up to a base have to kill one dude from their observation point as he was getting close.

Teamspeak: Higuys!!!!!### there are dudes in that bush

pew pew pew

Great no element of surprise now oh and to top it we are dead to people that did not know we were there.

Let just join the zerg then screw this tactical stuff.

Sardwyn

2012-03-08, 03:25 PM

am ok with this style of killcam :)

sylphaen

2012-03-08, 03:30 PM

Great news !
:)

Will there be some love for medics between when you get shot and when you see your killer's stat page or the spawn screen ?

wasdie

2012-03-08, 03:36 PM

Good, now people can stop complaining.

I just hate the stupid circle death camera. WWII Online had that. It annoyed the crap out of me.

I still believe a vague kill cam wouldn't do squat to this game.

EVILoHOMER

2012-03-08, 03:40 PM

10 guys stealthing up to a base have to kill one dude from their observation point as he was getting close.

Teamspeak: Higuys!!!!!### there are dudes in that bush

pew pew pew

Great no element of surprise now oh and to top it we are dead to people that did not know we were there.

Let just join the zerg then screw this tactical stuff.

Well I'm guessing the cloaking device in Planetside 2 will have some drain a regen system so you wont be coming from a long range anyways. So when you get killed that person will tell his team mates there are people around that location and someone will come along in a vehicle and kill them weak cloakers.

If you had a camera circling around your body like Planetside you'll be able to see their location most probably. If they were a sniper you'll be able to see the tracer from where it came from or one of the many hundreds of people will see it and tell other people.

If you're good cloaker, you wont sit in a bush for too long to be killed by someone that guy has told or the same person.

I see no problem with a kill cam.

Mastachief

2012-03-08, 03:46 PM

I must clear that up by stealthing i mean heavy assault under cover of darkness creeping up on a base/outpost. I'm thinking of the ops my own outfit are likely to be mounting. At least in the past stealth has been key to success so having some one go on TS he's round corner X.... yeh he's still there... he reloading go go go. It's really a daft feature and only caters to the stupid.

Thankfully you the minority here and on facebook.

EliteGamerHl

2012-03-08, 03:47 PM

Eyeklops

2012-03-08, 03:49 PM

I would love to see a "KillChat" popping up after Death instead of "Killcams".
A chat box to tell the Killer your Feelings...
PS1 was all about the Tells after a Kill!

I like this idea with a few modifications

For the killer:

It pops up a chat window for each person in the center of the screen
The chat box should take focus and force mouse pointer mode
The backround should grey out

For the victim side:

It should function only if you get killed by QuiCKaNdDeaDLy, for any other killer you will be required to do it PS1 style.

Death2All

2012-03-08, 03:49 PM

I would love to see a "KillChat" popping up after Death instead of "Killcams".
A chat box to tell the Killer your Feelings...
PS1 was all about the Tells after a Kill!

http://screenshot.xfire.com/s/58146997-4.jpg

Lmao, that was a surprise. Didn't think I'd see one of my screenshots posted on here :D

Great idea though. I think MW3 implemented something that allows you to hear peoples mic as they respawn, usually resulting in them raging on the other end. Could prove to be entertaining :lol:

Graywolves

2012-03-08, 03:52 PM

Feels redundant with player stat website. If I'm really interested I'll look it up.

DaddyTickles

2012-03-08, 03:58 PM

Feels redundant with player stat website. If I'm really interested I'll look it up.

Yeah, also too much complexity in what should be a simple part of the game mechanic.

Johari

2012-03-08, 05:26 PM

Not a fan of the killcam we saw at GDC but I don't think too many people are surprised at that. I'm a fan of the 3d model that shows who killed you and what their loadout was. Keep the camera circling around your corpse for all I care but automatically following the killing is a point off for me.

Dir

2012-03-08, 05:52 PM

I would love to see a "KillChat" popping up after Death instead of "Killcams".
A chat box to tell the Killer your Feelings...
PS1 was all about the Tells after a Kill!

Dude!?!? best idea ever!! It's such a pain typing in LONG ASS NAMES for hate tells...not that I've ever sent one.

Honestly this whole kill-cam thing is something politicians do when they want to distract you from more pressing concerns. It had about as much chance making it into the game as that gun that fires meat seeking velociraptors. Now we're thanking them for actually listening? This is a very strange world we live in.

Raymac

2012-03-08, 05:58 PM

Honestly this whole kill-cam thing is something politicians do when they want to distract you from more pressing concerns. It had about as much chance making it into the game as that gun that fires meat seeking velociraptors. Now we're thanking them for actually listening? This is a very strange world we live in.

This killcam discussion didn't just start with the GDC demo. It has been a conversation going on in the community and with the devs for quite some time now. Originally, it was conceived to be similar to the BF cam, but after Higby had some discussions with the community here and on reddit, these newer ideas started to evolve.

This is not a wag the dog type of situation. I think this is a beautiful example of dev / community interaction.

DviddLeff

2012-03-08, 06:03 PM

As long as you can not see what the other player is doing or their location I am happy.

Atuday

2012-03-08, 06:15 PM

Oh thank the devs this is good news. I was really getting worried.

Redshift

2012-03-08, 06:16 PM

Thats what i wanted also

Talek Krell

2012-03-08, 06:20 PM

Yesssssss. I feel terrible for the devs sometimes. It occurred to me that the cam might just be a placeholder but they've made an alpha so pretty that we can't tell what's finished or not. >_>

I like your ideal concept too Higby. Something along those lines should be informative without being compromising.

Dir

2012-03-08, 06:44 PM

This killcam discussion didn't just start with the GDC demo. It has been a conversation going on in the community and with the devs for quite some time now. Originally, it was conceived to be similar to the BF cam, but after Higby had some discussions with the community here and on reddit, these newer ideas started to evolve.

This is not a wag the dog type of situation. I think this is a beautiful example of dev / community interaction.

No doubt kill cam rants have been going on with devs since it first appeared as a “feature” in any FPS. What struck me was how completely alien and goofy it appeared...almost like a joke? or a distraction? It was obvious to me immediately this was going to take precedence in forum over any other lingering concerns. This issue was already resolved but still made it into the demo?

Talek Krell

2012-03-08, 06:49 PM

Raymac

2012-03-08, 06:52 PM

No doubt kill cam rants have been going on with devs since it first appeared as a “feature” in any FPS. What struck me was how completely alien and goofy it appeared...almost like a joke? or a distraction? It was obvious to me immediately this was going to take precedence in forum over any other lingering concerns. This issue was already resolved but still made it into the demo?

Yeah, you make a really good point. It was the first, and really only major thing that made me think "really devs? you did that?". Everything else in the demo blew my mind.

I think that is why Higby said that they almost didn't even include it in the demo at all. It sounds to me like they had an internal debate about it and just decided to put it in to show as a place holder. I'm looking forward to seeing what they eventually come up with.

Stormhall

2012-03-08, 07:38 PM

I personally would like a replay of my death that I can pause, rewind, fast forward, zoom in on certain bits of the replay and analyse it.

There arises some minor problems with location but I think it would be real neat and very good to look at and improve on.

And have the feature to save the replay.

Synapses

2012-03-08, 07:53 PM

Grimster

2012-03-09, 04:21 AM

I really like this idea with the killcam showing you a 3D model of the killer.

Sounds A LOT better than we initially thought it would be. :)

/Kim

Erendil

2012-03-09, 05:12 AM

I would love to see a "KillChat" popping up after Death instead of "Killcams".
A chat box to tell the Killer your Feelings...
PS1 was all about the Tells after a Kill!

I like the killchat solution VIE used in Subspace back in the day. Everyone had two constantly updating variables available to them in chat at all times - %killer and %killed - that stored the name of the last person who killed you and the last person you killed, respectively. So you didn't even have to know the name of your killer for you to spam hate tells at him over and over... :p It made for some interesting chat macros, too.... :D

More on topic, I'd much rather be shown a 3D view of myself with marked hit locations of each shot I took than that of the killer. Maybe even traced trajectories of the shots that hit as well (if such a thing is possible). Kinda like so:

http://i540.photobucket.com/albums/gg331/Erendil69/Planetside%202/bullet_path_laser2.jpg

Showing CGI view of the killer teaches you nothing, and might even give away info you have no reason knowing - like what class they were playing. I mean, say someone killed you with a Gauss Rifle from behind. HTH would you know if it was an HA, LA, or Medic that shot you if you didn't see them before you bit it?

But if you're shown your own character right before death, you'd get hit location info as well as the rough direction that shots came from without giving anything away about what actually lies in the killer's direction (terrain, available cover, other enemies, etc). It might also tell you if part of you was exposed when you thought you were behind cover, etc.

Ideally I'd like this to be preceded with a 3rd person view of your character from the front that showed the last 3-4 seconds of you life, maybe slowed down slightly so you can better see what transpired.

As long as you can not see what the other player is doing or their location I am happy.

In the end tho, yeah, pretty much this. :cool:

cellinaire

2012-03-09, 05:19 AM

This is a good start. Can't wait for the Beta and many feedbacks I will report later!

Anyway, <33 Higby and the team.

Gandhi

2012-03-09, 05:21 AM

I like the killchat solution VIE used in Subspace back in the day. Everyone had two constantly updating variables available to them in chat at all times - %killer and %killed - that stored the name of the last person who killed you and the last person you killed, respectively. So you didn't even have to know the name of your killer for you to spam hate tells at him over and over... :p It made for some interesting chat macros, too.... :D
Awwww shit a fellow Subspace player! %12! :D

ringring

2012-03-09, 05:27 AM

Anyone know if there is a killspam box? I liked that.

CutterJohn

2012-03-09, 05:38 AM

Neutral Response - YouTube

However, I am now a bit more concerned about cloaking snipers..

StumpyTheOzzie

2012-03-09, 05:40 AM

But if you're shown your own character right before death, you'd get hit location info as well as the rough direction that shots came from without giving anything away about what actually lies in the killer's direction (terrain, available cover, other enemies, etc). It might also tell you if part of you was exposed when you thought you were behind cover, etc.

In the end tho, yeah, pretty much this. :cool:

Might be good to see if anybody's wall hacking too.

EVILoHOMER

2012-03-09, 06:27 AM