"Point popups"

[krnasaur]

I noticed 2 things from this.

1. Every time I saw that pop up (the +100 per kill, +25 for an assist, etc.) at the GDC play session it made me cringe. That was alot of cringing. When im playing, every 30 or so seconds if i saw a big yellow number pop up it would start to get on my nerves(I even prefered hardcore mode in CoD4 because the lack of the popup). Please either remove it or put it in an out of the way area (to the side/bottom etc) or make it optional. This may just be my opinion, but after the first week or so, the EXP values will be so large to unlock something that each individual kill wouldn't make that much of an impact on your overall progress, it is more about session totals that really had any impact. Kind of like the system they had in PS1 (I'm talking that bar on the bottom that you had to turn on that showed session time, KDR, BEP and CEP)


A replacement that I would like to see is a small, out of the way, and optional HUD element that totaled EXP for the session, with every kill/assits/heal/whatever gives exp highlighting a +50 on that bar, before switching back to the session total


2.The other thing i noticed was that the kills looked like they all had the same value. One feature I LOVED in planetside was the longer a character was alive the higher his experience value was sort of a "bounty" system and the feeling you got after taking out a 5K EXP kill 1 on 1 felt great. another pro of this was it sort of inhibited spawn camping. what was the point of just tube camping if you only got 1 or 2 experience for each kill.


The +100 markers are a staple in modern shooters, providing the short term instant gratification that most gamers have come to enjoy, but they don't belong in planetside. Planetside is not about the short term, hence the whole "persistence" thing you may have heard about in the game, so a short term EXP counter is not necessary. IMO, a less obnoxiously in-your-face session EXP total-er that doesn't interfere with the immersion would be preferred


TLDR: read the last paragraph

[Death2All]

I too found that the exp pop ups to be annoying and very CoD esque. I thought the exp value showing in the chatbox worked perfectly fine, didn't need numbers and shit constantly spamming in my face.

This is alpha also, so those exp values may all be set to the same number because they haven't yet integrated that system yet...Or maybe no one was alive long enough for the XP to increase? May 50 or 100 xp is the minimum, I don't recall what the exact number was from the video.


I hope they do integrate the same exp system, the longer you're alive/more kills you got the more exp you were worth, as you said, it made killing a tank that was alive forever and then getting 5K exp so satisfying.

If everyone is worth 50-100 exp I will puke.

[Graywolves]

The idea of point pop up is that it gives players immediate gratification for players and makes killing other players feel even better since flashy points pop up telling you how you were rewarded.


I personally don't like it and feel that the reinforced satisfaction loses its effect quickly.


I wouldn't mind being able to toggle it off. Not a big deal if you can turn it off or move it.

[Ailos]

I am also kinda skeptical about those XP popups, and given the option, would prefer them off. I don't think it's a bad idea to make that an optional UI element - perhaps default as on (so all the CoD kiddies feel at home), but one that us vets will turn off ('cos you know you'll be messing with the settings anyway).

I, too, am a big fan of the dynamic XP value system that was in PS1. Killing a tank that's killed your entire squad and getting 5k XP for it is a lot more satisfying that those litle "mario coins" popups, IMO.

[Bags]

PS1 told you how much exp you got.

[VioletZero]

I'd rather just have a scrolling list of EXP you get above your health and ammo.

[XPquant]

I really hope there is an option to disable all the exp spam.

[Zulthus]

PS1 told you how much exp you got.

Yes, but it was never in the way. Also satisfying to get anywhere from 1-3000xp per kill, not some set in stone cliche +50 or +100 in bold yellow text..

Anyway, I hate things like this that just flash up on your screen. They're in the way and they get very annoying. ESPECIALLY the Double kill. MULTI KILL. M-M-M-M MONSTER KILL KILL KILL.....

[SUBARU]

I noticed 2 things from this.

1. Every time I saw that pop up (the +100 per kill, +25 for an assist, etc.) at the GDC play session it made me cringe. That was alot of cringing. When im playing, every 30 or so seconds if i saw a big yellow number pop up it would start to get on my nerves(I even prefered hardcore mode in CoD4 because the lack of the popup). Please either remove it or put it in an out of the way area (to the side/bottom etc) or make it optional. This may just be my opinion, but after the first week or so, the EXP values will be so large to unlock something that each individual kill wouldn't make that much of an impact on your overall progress, it is more about session totals that really had any impact. Kind of like the system they had in PS1 (I'm talking that bar on the bottom that you had to turn on that showed session time, KDR, BEP and CEP)

A replacement that I would like to see is a small, out of the way, and optional HUD element that totaled EXP for the session, with every kill/assits/heal/whatever gives exp highlighting a +50 on that bar, before switching back to the session total


2.The other thing i noticed was that the kills looked like they all had the same value. One feature I LOVED in planetside was the longer a character was alive the higher his experience value was sort of a "bounty" system and the feeling you got after taking out a 5K EXP kill 1 on 1 felt great. another pro of this was it sort of inhibited spawn camping. what was the point of just tube camping if you only got 1 or 2 experience for each kill.


The +100 markers are a staple in modern shooters, providing the short term instant gratification that most gamers have come to enjoy, but they don't belong in planetside. Planetside is not about the short term, hence the whole "persistence" thing you may have heard about in the game, so a short term EXP counter is not necessary. IMO, a less obnoxiously in-your-face session EXP total-er that doesn't interfere with the immersion would be preferred


TLDR: read the last paragraph

Thank you +1

Watching the video i kept waiting to here a silly voice, like you here in an arcade game saying " PowER UP !"

What i dont get is ,I hear the Devs talking up PS1 in every interview they do,But they do all they can to change it in to BF or COD.

[PrISM]

PS1 told you how much exp you got.
In the chatbox, not floating in the middle of the screen like most games today. It's a terrible idea.

[Yutty]

I really hope there is an option to disable all the exp spam.

Hopefully this happens. I don't need some numbers popping up tell me how great i am i get gratification from just seeing a person drop. Same with the who killed who at the side. or at least allow us to make change the transparency so its not cluttering the screen as much.

[DaddyTickles]

But if that is what it takes to get and maintain a large playerbase?

Seems to me Higby is just using existing FPS memes to pull more audience.

Can't blame him.

[Death2All]

I am also kinda skeptical about those XP popups, and given the option, would prefer them off. I don't think it's a bad idea to make that an optional UI element - perhaps default as on (so all the CoD kiddies feel at home), but one that us vets will turn off ('cos you know you'll be messing with the settings anyway).


So far I like this solution best. Way to make both people happy.

[Vancha]

As with everything, it's best to give people options (if possible). Personally I'd prefer this to having it spam my chat box, but then I'd also prefer having no message at all. I know most people like to keep track of how close they are to the next level, but I prefer not to think or know about it.

[Drakkonan]

I vote for the battlefield 2 option. Grey, unobtrusive text in the corner, only instead of just say "you killed so-and-so", it'd say "you killed so-and-so +100" or better yet, "+100 you killed so-and-so".

[Draz]

What is so bad about the popups though? They don't obstruct vision and they are easily ignored after you see them enough. Seems to me like people hate them simply because they were in CoD.

[VioletZero]

What is so bad about the popups though? They don't obstruct vision and they are easily ignored after you see them enough. Seems to me like people hate them simply because they were in CoD.

I can see it being a little distracting.

Just have a tally in the bottom left corner I say.

[SODO]

Maybe just add a feature like for example:

When you die, have all the exp you earned that life show up in a window like on the kill cam or something like that.

[Bags]

i vote make it optional.

[Death2All]

i vote make it optional.


Seconded, thirded and quadruple...ded?

So long as it's an optional thing we can toggle, I don't think anyone can disagree. As some said earlier, keep on by default to appeal to CoD and BF fanboys that like that sort of thing, but let players who find it to be annoying or obtrusive to toggle it off or maybe even customize where it appears.

[Aurmanite]

After a little while you will automatically filter those messages out because the human brain is capable of some awesome things.

[Jimmuc]

i kinda zoned them out when i was watching. imo make the whole UI customizable, as in allowing us to move exp pop-ups to where we like them or remove them from the screen. the closest example i can think of would be like the WoW add-on X-Perl :cool:

[Saintlycow]

I vote for the battlefield 2 option. Grey, unobtrusive text in the corner, only instead of just say "you killed so-and-so", it'd say "you killed so-and-so +100" or better yet, "+100 you killed so-and-so".

Yup, this works well. Why not just add the xp at the bottom next to that box that shows who you just killed

[bigcracker]

They gonna wanna bring in the COD and BF3 players its most likely gonna stay in.

[Bags]

>I play BF3
>I have no idea why this feature would draw someone from those games

[Boomrang]

Yes, but it was never in the way. Also satisfying to get anywhere from 1-3000xp per kill, not some set in stone cliche +50 or +100 in bold yellow text..

This ^^ I have no problem with the popup, but I do greatly dislike the standard +100 xp per kill. The best feeling in Planetside 1 was killing someone and getting 1.5k exp for him and knowing he's been alive and killing for a while before you killed him.

[StumpyTheOzzie]

Give it 3 days of good solid killing and your brain will filter out that stuff. You'll subconsciously register that you got some points but you won't even "see" the yellow spam after a while.

Oh, and if tanks and Heavies and lights and infils are worth the same, I'll cry.

[megamold]

i dont really mind the xp popups, like has been said : once you get used to it you just filter it out and yet you still soak up that information ( wich is not a bad thing imho )
i dont see how this will affect the game in any possible way, i actually think its better then having it scroll in the chatbox, since there might be more important info in the chat.
so i prefer the flash and fade

the amount of point given for certain actions is something that i think is pointless to get into atm, thats a beta discussion topic if i ever saw one

[duomaxwl]

i vote make it optional.

^^
That would be best for all.

Sent from my SCH-I500 using Tapatalk

[ThGlump]

If every kill is worth the same amount of XP there is no need to show it over and over. Make it like in ps1 where it was very variable and you kinda enjoyed when you killed someone for high xp.
But let us move it or put it on edge of screen. I hate when something poping right in the center of screen.

[Raymac]

I was thinking about this last night before going to bed (I think about this game far too much) so I'm glad a thread was finally started on it. We haven't quite picked the carcass of that demo clean just yet. lol

Personally, I like having the pop ups on there for a couple reasons, but the primary one is to instantly confirm the kill. I don't know about you guys, but during the reaver portion, due to the amount of smoke kicked up, it was near impossible for me to tell if the tank was destroyed or not. Sure, there can be a kill spam like in PS1, but I like the option of keeping my eyes forward and not looking around a screen when I'm flying over 100 mph 20 feet off the ground.

Now, they can either remove all the smoke so you can see the damage easier, but I thought all that smoke and fire was pretty damn cool, so I don't like that solution. Or they can keep the pop ups in.

I think it would be insanely easy for them to make those on screen pop ups optional though, and the devs should do that for all the people that want a cleaner display. Hopefully this will be one of the many options for a customizable interface. These devs do love their customization.

[Gelnika]

The solution here is pretty simple. Keep them in as default and give an option to disable them, that way everyone is happy.

[Trolltaxi]

What is so bad about the popups though? They don't obstruct vision and they are easily ignored after you see them enough. Seems to me like people hate them simply because they were in CoD.

I hate it for it is childish... feeling happy and uber for a popping "+100 XP" in your face is just stupid. "Oh boy, another 100 XP! Oh-boy-oh-boy-oh-BOOOOY!" :hitit:

PS with it's permanent world offers way more reward than flashy popups... These things alienate you from the game, break the athmosphere.

But getting a sum of your total XP since your last death (i.e. adding it to the "killcam" stats) is a good idea. Everyone satisfied, still it's not disturbing.

And @Raymac about the smoke. In real battles it happens that people shoot at dead targets, be it "just in case" or blocked vision or partial visibility. It's ok if you waste some rounds, that's how war goes. Well, thinking about it I missed the yellow circles marking your hits connecting. Armour is flashing when it is hit, but you never know if it was your hit or someone else is shooting at the same target. It really helped learning to lead the target in PS1 (though it was silly when you fired in an arc and you didn't see your shells hit the target but the yellow circle around the reticule told you that you are on spot...)

[DviddLeff]

Just make it toggle-able.

[WaryWizard]

the only good thing it is useful for is kill conformation. I would like to move it though. Removing it entirely could make you either waste ammo or not kill an enemy when you don't have a clear view of what your shooting.

[Gandhi]

Removing it entirely could make you either waste ammo or not kill an enemy when you don't have a clear view of what your shooting.
Like, say, when a gigantic iron mess is obscuring your view to increase your accuracy :doh:

God bless shooters but I really don't understand them sometimes.

[Eyeklops]

Power of choice! Make the player figure out where they want it. Give the option for cross-hair pop-up, chatbox, dedicated "my points" chat style box, or "off."

[FriendlyFire]

The XP Pop-up is a bit dated and isn't really needed. Maybe they could include an icon system instead of text. I don't mind scrolling combat info, as long as I can position it where I want.

[Hermes]

In PS1 I needed to see people's health going down as I shot them, was one slot in my implants that rarely changed.

It wasn't just making tactical target choices - it was that I craved that gratification of see bullets land prominently. Stick me in a box with all the modern-fps-fanboys, magpies and small children with smaller attention spans if you will, but this xp pop up scratches the same itch for me. I'm for it.

Stick it on a toggle and let me get my fix :)

[Rivenshield]

I'm with OP. I think it sucks.

I also see absolutely no reason why they can't allow us to turn it off client-side.

[Skitrel]

Get over it, popups are going to stay whether gamers SAY they dislike them or not. They're in games now because they give the player a cathartic feeling of accomplishment, constantly. They'll stick around because it's part of what creates and maintains player addiction, whether the player realises it and bitches about it mistakenly or not.

Psychology is fun.

[ThGlump]

Ok let them stay, just dont force them to the middle of the screen! Lower left corner is exactly where is should be, and not getting in the way all the time.

[Death2All]

Get over it, popups are going to stay whether gamers SAY they dislike them or not. They're in games now because they give the player a cathartic feeling of accomplishment, constantly. They'll stick around because it's part of what creates and maintains player addiction, whether the player realises it and bitches about it mistakenly or not.

Psychology is fun.

Whoa whoa whoa...What's wrong with adding an option that allows you toggle them on or off? Why does it have to be one or the other with you people?

Some people like pop up exp, some don't. What's wrong with allowing the player to choose?

Keep it on by default so it appeals to all the CoD/BF people who are used to that thing and let the veteran players, or people who don't prefer it to be able to switch it off. I really don't see the problem.

[Shogun]

i´m not a coder, but a toggle on/off would certainly eat up about zero developer time, so i hope it will be in.

maybe give an aditional option to move the spam from "in your face" to chatwindow and everybody should be happy. don´t think this would be hard to implement either.

[GTGD]

While I think it should be optional, do we know for sure that those are exp values and not points? Or are points and exp the same thing?

[Skitrel]

I hate it for it is childish... feeling happy and uber for a popping "+100 XP" in your face is just stupid. "Oh boy, another 100 XP! Oh-boy-oh-boy-oh-BOOOOY!" :hitit:

You may think this, but psychologically it creates a cathartic release and that's why it's become a staple of fps games. Gaming psychology, it's part of what creates and maintains an addiction in players.

This debate won't change anything at all, it's going to be in the game because it's part of what sucks in and maintains players playing more. Yes, even you folks that say you dislike it.

[Graywolves]

You may think this, but psychologically it creates a cathartic release and that's why it's become a staple of fps games. Gaming psychology, it's part of what creates and maintains an addiction in players.

This debate won't change anything at all, it's going to be in the game because it's part of what sucks in and maintains players playing more. Yes, even you folks that say you dislike it.

Actually if someone doesn't like the feature there is a negative effect.

It's important to keep in mind that there are always exceptions, especially in psychology.


Some people don't need it and don't want it. No harm in moving it or even making it disappear for those players.

Players who go to the games without the points don't find themselves going back to game modes with the points and feel better.

[ThGlump]

You may think this, but psychologically it creates a cathartic release and that's why it's become a staple of fps games. Gaming psychology, it's part of what creates and maintains an addiction in players.


Part of that is from the winning condition. Most of games that spam you with points every kill, have those points as placement condition. And everyone like to be first so they enjoy every 100points that pop on the screen.

But planteside dont have that leaderboard, that would make those points worth it, so its unnecessary spam.

If its actually xp then unless xp per kill are varied like in ps1 there is no need for showing it either as i know how much i got per kill. If its varied i would like to see it, but in more convenient place and not in the middle of the screen.

[Skitrel]

Whoa whoa whoa...What's wrong with adding an option that allows you toggle them on or off? Why does it have to be one or the other with you people?

Some people like pop up exp, some don't. What's wrong with allowing the player to choose?

Keep it on by default so it appeals to all the CoD/BF people who are used to that thing and let the veteran players, or people who don't prefer it to be able to switch it off. I really don't see the problem.

Nothing, in the eyes of the player. In the eyes of game designers it's removing a key feature that plays a part in gamer psychology and addiction. Making successful games isn't just about making a good game anymore, that's part of it, the other part is the psychology, how to make players play more, play longer, and invest themselves in a game. For this reason, I seriously do not see it going away, and fully understand that.

For battlefield players, here's an example: http://i.imgur.com/GAyOv.png

You will get some sort of positive cathartic release from seeing this image, those of you that have played enough will understand entirely why. This served as my background for a while purely because of this. It's a fun little piece of psychology in gamers. For those that don't play battlefield, that's an abstract modern art representation of what the kill+points popups in BF3 look like, or at least, the colours, it still has the same effect because it becomes mentally engrained into the player. You don't realise this playing, but that's what those popups do, they play a role in positive reinforcements and cathartic good feelings in players, which affects their addiction to the game. Removing anything that does this is simply a bad decision from a design and business point of view, hence why I sincerely doubt you'll see any way to make them go away.

And finally, as a secondary purpose, they serve as instantly recognisable kill confirmations.

[Death2All]

Nothing, in the eyes of the player. In the eyes of game designers it's removing a key feature that plays a part in gamer psychology and addiction. Making successful games isn't just about making a good game anymore, that's part of it, the other part is the psychology, how to make players play more, play longer, and invest themselves in a game. For this reason, I seriously do not see it going away, and fully understand that.

For battlefield players, here's an example: http://i.imgur.com/GAyOv.png

You will get some sort of positive cathartic release from seeing this image, those of you that have played enough will understand entirely why. This served as my background for a while purely because of this. It's a fun little piece of psychology in gamers. For those that don't play battlefield, that's an abstract modern art representation of what the kill+points popups in BF3 look like, or at least, the colours, it still has the same effect because it becomes mentally engrained into the player. You don't realise this playing, but that's what those popups do, they play a role in positive reinforcements and cathartic good feelings in players, which affects their addiction to the game. Removing anything that does this is simply a bad decision from a design and business point of view, hence why I sincerely doubt you'll see any way to make them go away.

And finally, as a secondary purpose, they serve as instantly recognisable kill confirmations.

If the only thing this game has to keep players hooked is little numbers periodically popping up, then the game is screwed. There's more to keeping players hooked than the strange psychological theories you have.


Even if that were the case, maybe I don't want to be subconsciously hypnotized into playing the game for hours by little numbers contentiously popping up in my screen. In fact, I do play Battlefield and those numbers actually piss me off and make me want to play the game LESS.


Also, you could already recognize your kill confirmation in PS1, it was listed in the killspam box. You could easily tell in your peripheral vision when you got a kill because you'd see an icon separated by a few lines of text explaining that you got the kill and how much it was worth. Besides, it's like I'm going to shoot at a guy then stutter around for a few seconds in confusion because I didn't know if I got the kill or not.

[Skitrel]

If the only thing this game has to keep players hooked is little numbers periodically popping up, then the game is screwed. There's more to keeping players hooked than the strange psychological theories you have.


Even if that were the case, maybe I don't want to be subconsciously hypnotized into playing the game for hours by little numbers contentiously popping up in my screen. In fact, I do play Battlefield and those numbers actually piss me off and make me want to play the game LESS.

You might not want to be. You're going to be though. In fact, that's what games have always been about since the days of the arcade.

"What can we do to addict players better and make them put more coins in the machine?"

The more you play, the more chance of you putting money in the machine. That's why the game will do absolutely everything it can to keep you playing. Not a bad thing, it is ultimately a part of why you enjoy the game in fact, though you won't recognise the psychological factors causing that, they're there, and they're messing with you.

Cod's taking it to a new level lately, even implementing it in their DLC release strategies. Anyone ever noticed how communities get restless? When there's no news and nothing to distract them they start looking at the flaws of the game and complaining. Battlefield is seeing that BIG TIME lately with the huge amount of time since last patch/DLC. Cod's counter? Release maps 1 at a time instead of in a pack, constantly give the players something else to talk about other than their problems. They forget the negatives, enjoy the game more, and spend more.

People don't realise the amount of psychology that goes into decisions in games, popup point announcements are one of those things. While in theory, talking about them on a forum, not in game, not playing, it's easier to dissect and say, when not under their influence "These are bad". In game however is an entirely different thing, and those little points make people feel good, over, and over, and over, and over again. They have exactly the same repetitive positive effects the feelings of achievements players of Zynga games get doing their little repetitive tasks in Farmvillemoblordskitchensimwhatever crap they're making now.

Ultimately, character progression, XP, unlocking crap. One can argue that NONE of those things should have ever entered FPS games. They're all unnecessary, they simply lock the player away from using stuff. The entire system is just a psychological tool to make you play more, and always has been.

[Death2All]

You might not want to be. You're going to be though. In fact, that's what games have always been about since the days of the arcade.

"What can we do to addict players better and make them put more coins in the machine?"

The more you play, the more chance of you putting money in the machine. That's why the game will do absolutely everything it can to keep you playing. Not a bad thing, it is ultimately a part of why you enjoy the game in fact, though you won't recognise the psychological factors causing that, they're there, and they're messing with you.

Cod's taking it to a new level lately, even implementing it in their DLC release strategies. Anyone ever noticed how communities get restless? When there's no news and nothing to distract them they start looking at the flaws of the game and complaining. Battlefield is seeing that BIG TIME lately with the huge amount of time since last patch/DLC. Cod's counter? Release maps 1 at a time instead of in a pack, constantly give the players something else to talk about other than their problems. They forget the negatives, enjoy the game more, and spend more.

People don't realise the amount of psychology that goes into decisions in games, popup point announcements are one of those things. While in theory, talking about them on a forum, not in game, not playing, it's easier to dissect and say, when not under their influence "These are bad". In game however is an entirely different thing, and those little points make people feel good, over, and over, and over, and over again. They have exactly the same repetitive positive effects the feelings of achievements players of Zynga games get doing their little repetitive tasks in Farmvillemoblordskitchensimwhatever crap they're making now.

Ultimately, character progression, XP, unlocking crap. One can argue that NONE of those things should have ever entered FPS games. They're all unnecessary, they simply lock the player away from using stuff. The entire system is just a psychological tool to make you play more, and always has been.

K...you didn't at all answer anything that I replied to you with, you instead spout out a bunch of psychological bullshit that has no bearing or relevance to the discussion.

Yes, leveling up, unlocking weapons/equipment and adding new content are all avenues game developers use to keep the player hooked to the game and they're all features that are universally liked and are a staple to nearly every game out there.


Pop ups however are not universally liked. People dislike them, as it's evident to the thread. Some people genuinely dislikepop ups and would like a toggle to turn them off. They find them obtrusive and annoying. People hate shit popping up in their face, as it's evident with real pops ups on the internet. People get pop up blocker specifically to get rid of those things, because they annoy them.

You can keep preaching this "psychological positive reinforcement" all you want, but if people dislike a feature, they'll either dislike the game or not play it entirely. You can wipe your wiener over my face everyday, I'm not going to subconsciously start liking it because you do it all the time. If I hate it, I'm going to continue hating it.


Look, I'm not saying not to include them in the game at all, as I said, keep them on as default to attract the BF/CoD crowd or the people who come to expect them in FPS games. But leave it toggleable option for the people who dislike them. That's all I'm asking.


Fuck.

[Trolltaxi]

Look Skitrel pls be a good boy and either recite your sources or stop pretending Dr. Freud of gaming. (Yes, it is a bit of trolling in a psychological way... you're right, but pls look at my nickame and you will understand it. It is my desire... maybe daddy was bad to me - or too good?)

Referring on common sense I can tell you, that numbers popping into my face are nowhere near to cathartic at all. D2A explained you already - a game that needs those numbers to trigger the feel of accomplishment is a bad game that needs urgent uninstall.

Planetside was more than rewarding even without the (complex) xp system. Killing your enemies was not your goal, it was the way you achieved your goal. We were hacking bases, defending against hacks, escorted LLU-s, made antruns to power up bases... or we went to backhack the enemy on a secondary continent to help our empire on the primary. We did genholds, drained bases just for the fun. Or we were setting up defenses to secure key objectives.

We provided support to our teammates or even randoms, lead our squads or followed our leader, discussed targets or just had a chitchat... we generally had a good time while playing. If the enemy died during it - even better. We received some XP? Why not? But it wasn't about XP at all.

You know what? Outfits are the basis of the planetside feeling. These informal groups meant the urge to log in night after night. Your outfitmates, buddies, friends - whatever you call it... it hooked people and had them pay and play for month, for years.

See it? This is what PS had to offer - not flashy, poppy numbers.

[megamold]

i think skitrel makes a good point, i hear lots of people all over the internet ramble about the state of gaming in todays world(me included)

people blame this on many many things
the simple fact of the matter is that when gaming became "popular"commercialization set in.
and the psychology thing is just part of that commercialization

what i think is that some things we wont be able to get changed because of this reason, SOE told the dev team to make a game and gave them some ground rules.
now SOE doesnt really "care" what the game will be like, all they care about is thats its a succes and the psychology is a big part of that. so SOE might have forced the devs to use a popup reward

little fact: it's actually freud's cousing Edward Bernays that kind of pioneered this field of psychology

[Skitrel]

Unfortunately citation in gaming isn't as easy as you'd have it, there are very very few research papers in gaming beyond simply the effects of gaming on aggression.

What becomes standard in games is driven by what proves successful, but this is only ever noted through observation, rarely released and kept quite guarded by companies, their internal statistics. There is however Plenty to read on catharsis (http://www.google.co.uk/webhp?rlz=1C1CHFX_en-GBGB451GB451&sourceid=chrome-instant&ie=UTF-8&ion=1#hl=en&gs_nf=1&cp=27&gs_id=8&xhr=t&q=cathartic+release+in+gaming&pf=p&safe=off&rlz=1C1CHFX_en-GBGB451GB451&sclient=psy-ab&oq=cathartic+release+in+gaming&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=&gs_upl=&gs_l=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_cp.r_qf.,cf.osb&fp=eca6a646aa0fe0a2&ion=1&biw=1920&bih=955) and it doesn't take long to understand why what I've explained is true after understanding the basics of why many of us play video games, particularly to relax.

K...you didn't at all answer anything that I replied to you with

Yes I did, I explained in quite a detailed manner why the option to turn of features that make a player want to play more won't be an option and would be silly for any smart developer to do, both for business and for the game - because they're features that make a player want to play more.

You can keep preaching this "psychological positive reinforcement" all you want, but if people dislike a feature, they'll either dislike the game or not play it entirely. You can wipe your wiener over my face everyday, I'm not going to subconsciously start liking it because you do it all the time. If I hate it, I'm going to continue hating it.

Now you're being a melodramatic. This is a very standard, very normal, in EVERY single fps feature, something I have never, ever seen people complain about, not once. It is one the most minor gripes in the world, doesn't affect gameplay in the slightest and so on.

Let's not be drama queens about some points. You are making it sound like it is the end of the world and you're going you refuse to play the game unless it is gone. This isn't important, at all.

fuck

Calm down.

[Graywolves]

Unfortunately citation in gaming isn't as easy as you'd have it, there are very very few research papers in gaming beyond simply the effects of gaming on aggression.

What becomes standard in games is driven by what proves successful, but this is only ever noted through observation, rarely released and kept quite guarded by companies, their internal statistics. There is however Plenty to read on catharsis (http://www.google.co.uk/webhp?rlz=1C1CHFX_en-GBGB451GB451&sourceid=chrome-instant&ie=UTF-8&ion=1#hl=en&gs_nf=1&cp=27&gs_id=8&xhr=t&q=cathartic+release+in+gaming&pf=p&safe=off&rlz=1C1CHFX_en-GBGB451GB451&sclient=psy-ab&oq=cathartic+release+in+gaming&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=&gs_upl=&gs_l=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_cp.r_qf.,cf.osb&fp=eca6a646aa0fe0a2&ion=1&biw=1920&bih=955) and it doesn't take long to understand why what I've explained is true after understanding the basics of why many of us play video games, particularly to relax.



Yes I did, I explained in quite a detailed manner why the option to turn of features that make a player want to play more won't be an option and would be silly for any smart developer to do, both for business and for the game - because they're features that make a player want to play more.



Now you're being a melodramatic. This is a very standard, very normal, in EVERY single fps feature, something I have never, ever seen people complain about, not once. It is one the most minor gripes in the world, doesn't affect gameplay in the slightest and so on.

Let's not be drama queens about some points. You are making it sound like it is the end of the world and you're going you refuse to play the game unless it is gone. This isn't important, at all.



Calm down.

You're giving it more power than it really has.

[Skitrel]

This is all very simple to clear up, the devs can run it off for a week in beta and get all the data they need to show themselves how it affects player behaviour, average playtimes, how people play and so on.

If it's not important to keeping people playing, you'll see an option, if it is, you won't. There is however a reason you see it in every. single. game.

[Figment]

IMO it reminds me of cheaper arcade games and it draws too much attention. I too would prefer the chat box option.

[Death2All]

Now you're being a melodramatic. This is a very standard, very normal, in EVERY single fps feature, something I have never, ever seen people complain about, not once. It is one the most minor gripes in the world, doesn't affect gameplay in the slightest and so on.

Let's not be drama queens about some points. You are making it sound like it is the end of the world and you're going you refuse to play the game unless it is gone. This isn't important, at all.



Calm down.

:bang: :bang: :bang:

I'm really glad you're not one of the people developing PS2 and I'm confident that the devs at SOE possess a better head on their shoulders and common sense than you do. Your argument is so completely narrow and subjective that's it sickening. The argument that flashy numbers are the only thing that keeps players hooked is just idiotic.

If all it took to make a game successful was to include numbers that pop up whenever you kill someone, why would they bother spending any time at all developing a whole new visually stunning engine, create new gameplay mechanics, develop all new weapons, vehicles and give the player tons of customization options?



Now you're being a melodramatic. This is a very standard, very normal, in EVERY single fps feature, something I have never, ever seen people complain about, not once. It is one the most minor gripes in the world, doesn't affect gameplay in the slightest and so on.


I think now we can confirm that you didn't read the thread at all, and simply used it as an avenue to spout your psychological nonsense. My friend, let me introduce you to a skill I learned called "reading":




I too found that the exp pop ups to be annoying and very CoD esque. I thought the exp value showing in the chatbox worked perfectly fine, didn't need numbers and shit constantly spamming in my face.


The idea of point pop up is that it gives players immediate gratification for players and makes killing other players feel even better since flashy points pop up telling you how you were rewarded.


I personally don't like it and feel that the reinforced satisfaction loses its effect quickly.


I wouldn't mind being able to toggle it off. Not a big deal if you can turn it off or move it.

I am also kinda skeptical about those XP popups, and given the option, would prefer them off. I don't think it's a bad idea to make that an optional UI element - perhaps default as on (so all the CoD kiddies feel at home), but one that us vets will turn off ('cos you know you'll be messing with the settings anyway).


I'd rather just have a scrolling list of EXP you get above your health and ammo.

I really hope there is an option to disable all the exp spam.



I hate things like this that just flash up on your screen. They're in the way and they get very annoying. ESPECIALLY the Double kill. MULTI KILL. M-M-M-M MONSTER KILL KILL KILL.....

In the chatbox, not floating in the middle of the screen like most games today. It's a terrible idea.

Hopefully this happens. I don't need some numbers popping up tell me how great i am i get gratification from just seeing a person drop. Same with the who killed who at the side. or at least allow us to make change the transparency so its not cluttering the screen as much.

As with everything, it's best to give people options (if possible). Personally I'd prefer this to having it spam my chat box, but then I'd also prefer having no message at all. I know most people like to keep track of how close they are to the next level, but I prefer not to think or know about it.

I vote for the battlefield 2 option. Grey, unobtrusive text in the corner, only instead of just say "you killed so-and-so", it'd say "you killed so-and-so +100" or better yet, "+100 you killed so-and-so".

The solution here is pretty simple. Keep them in as default and give an option to disable them, that way everyone is happy.

I hate it for it is childish... feeling happy and uber for a popping "+100 XP" in your face is just stupid. "Oh boy, another 100 XP! Oh-boy-oh-boy-oh-BOOOOY!" :hitit:

PS with it's permanent world offers way more reward than flashy popups... These things alienate you from the game, break the athmosphere.

But getting a sum of your total XP since your last death (i.e. adding it to the "killcam" stats) is a good idea. Everyone satisfied, still it's not disturbing.


Just make it toggle-able.

Power of choice! Make the player figure out where they want it. Give the option for cross-hair pop-up, chatbox, dedicated "my points" chat style box, or "off."

I'm with OP. I think it sucks.

I also see absolutely no reason why they can't allow us to turn it off client-side.

Yeah, no one complains about it at all :rolleyes:

[megamold]

i think he meant noone complains except for the community of a 10 year old game.

and hes not saying that the pupop is the only thing getting players hooked, its a combination of many many small thing like the popup.
company's use psychology all the time to make you buy crap you dont need/want, a videogame is no different.
and if you dont even realize that your wants and needs ( from toilet products to videogames ) are being influenced by PR people and commercials, then you are a great asset to capitalism

and exagerating an minimalising his point does not make you right

[Skitrel]

Your argument is so completely narrow and subjective that's it sickening.

Pot. Meet kettle.

The argument that flashy numbers are the only thing that keeps players hooked is just idiotic.

Point out where exactly I said this. Do not forge imaginary arguments from things I have not said.

[Death2All]

and exagerating an minimalising his point does not make you right

Ignroing mine doesn't make you right either. If people don't like a feature, they shouldn't be pigeonholed into having to use it because it's an addictive feature. If you dislike a feature, especially one that would be so easy to make it toggleable. you should have that choice.

[megamold]

no it doesnt, and yes we should have the choice, we really should.
but that doesnt mean that they will, i wish i could turn off the commercials on my tv, but i cant. i wish i could go a day without getting whole heaps of commercials stuffed into my mailbox but i cant.

and like i said before, the devs might not have a choice in the matter, it might be one of the requirements SOE set for them since it is a proven technique and SOE want to make money first and foremost.

[Aurmanite]

You might not want to be. You're going to be though. In fact, that's what games have always been about since the days of the arcade.

"What can we do to addict players better and make them put more coins in the machine?"

The more you play, the more chance of you putting money in the machine. That's why the game will do absolutely everything it can to keep you playing. Not a bad thing, it is ultimately a part of why you enjoy the game in fact, though you won't recognise the psychological factors causing that, they're there, and they're messing with you.

Cod's taking it to a new level lately, even implementing it in their DLC release strategies. Anyone ever noticed how communities get restless? When there's no news and nothing to distract them they start looking at the flaws of the game and complaining. Battlefield is seeing that BIG TIME lately with the huge amount of time since last patch/DLC. Cod's counter? Release maps 1 at a time instead of in a pack, constantly give the players something else to talk about other than their problems. They forget the negatives, enjoy the game more, and spend more.

People don't realise the amount of psychology that goes into decisions in games, popup point announcements are one of those things. While in theory, talking about them on a forum, not in game, not playing, it's easier to dissect and say, when not under their influence "These are bad". In game however is an entirely different thing, and those little points make people feel good, over, and over, and over, and over again. They have exactly the same repetitive positive effects the feelings of achievements players of Zynga games get doing their little repetitive tasks in Farmvillemoblordskitchensimwhatever crap they're making now.

Ultimately, character progression, XP, unlocking crap. One can argue that NONE of those things should have ever entered FPS games. They're all unnecessary, they simply lock the player away from using stuff. The entire system is just a psychological tool to make you play more, and always has been.

This guy knows what he's talking about. Don't dismiss this post just because you don't understand it.

Read it again if you have to.

[Gandhi]

Nobody complains about it because it's one of those minor things that makes near as no difference. It was introduced at some point as a gimmick that just never went away.

I get the psychological argument, but I'd bet there's no difference between flashing the XP gained in the middle of the screen and having a scrolling display off to the side that shows the last 5 things earned. I know from experience optional features are a bit of a pain in the ass for developers, but that extra work is usually worth it. So just make it toggleable. Default it to flash up in the center, with an option to move it to a scrolling display on the side or to turn it off entirely.

[megamold]

wherever they put it, it needs to be highly visible or it needs to be a sound.
something clearly seen or heard, otherwise it wont be effective

think of pavlovs dog, if it cant see the flashing light it wont react to it by drooling all over the place :)

[sylphaen]

Guys, pop-ups & co are just one aspect of a more important requirement:
CUSTOMIZABLE UI

Ask for the right thing instead of going through details one by one.
:)

[Gandhi]

wherever they put it, it needs to be highly visible or it needs to be a sound.
something clearly seen or heard, otherwise it wont be effective
I don't think so, as long as it's visible it'll be just as effective. Whether it's flashing violently in the center of your view or scrolling off to the side you're still subconsciously aware that you've earned something, our brains are pretty good at picking out that sort of thing.

Pavlov actually trained his dog to react to all kinds of things, not just bells and flashing lights ;)

[Figment]

Please stop the quarrelling lads. There are better issues to get worked up over. :P


World of Tanks allows this type of thing to be modded btw. They even allow the player to completely determine what information is shown, health, marker and otherwise. How about we get to chose what way it is shown, are able to modify the markers and what is shown when damage is dealt or kills are made?

Could this be tied to cosmetic purchases in the cash shop? Or simply to implants like Enhanced Targetting? Get some alternatives going, see if they can't eventually implement all the variants and killtracking so you can just select which things you want to see and where you want to see them. :)

[Zulthus]

I don't need someone rubbing psychological bullshit in my face telling me what I do or do not want. I know for certain that I have NEVER and WILL NEVER ever like or want some stupid flashy numbers telling me "ooooh, you scored a 'NOTHER kill! Wheeee! teeheheehe!!!"

I don't give a shit if people want to use it, but I for one do not.


It is one the most minor gripes in the world, doesn't affect gameplay in the slightest and so on.


Oh, good, then there's no reason to keep it.

[Trolltaxi]

Actually, D2A is minimalising Skitrels's argument way less than Skitrel is overemphasising the importance of popups.

[Skitrel]

I don't need someone rubbing psychological bullshit in my face telling me what I do or do not want. I know for certain that I have NEVER and WILL NEVER ever like or want some stupid flashy numbers telling me "ooooh, you scored a 'NOTHER kill! Wheeee! teeheheehe!!!"

I don't give a shit if people want to use it, but I for one do not.




Oh, good, then there's no reason to keep it.

Not affecting gameplay != not affecting player psychology

[megamold]

I don't think so, as long as it's visible it'll be just as effective. Whether it's flashing violently in the center of your view or scrolling off to the side you're still subconsciously aware that you've earned something, our brains are pretty good at picking out that sort of thing.

Pavlov actually trained his dog to react to all kinds of things, not just bells and flashing lights ;)

true, but a line of blue text in a box of blue chat wont work :)

[Death2All]

Please stop the quarrelling lads. There are better issues to get worked up over. :P


World of Tanks allows this type of thing to be modded btw. They even allow the player to completely determine what information is shown, health, marker and otherwise. How about we get to chose what way it is shown, are able to modify the markers and what is shown when damage is dealt or kills are made?

Could this be tied to cosmetic purchases in the cash shop? Or simply to implants like Enhanced Targetting? Get some alternatives going, see if they can't eventually implement all the variants and killtracking so you can just select which things you want to see and where you want to see them. :)

According to these guys you shouldn't be given the choice to mod it. You're forced to have pop ups whether or not you like them or not. You aren't allowed to mod them. That's why this thread is so irritating.

Zulthus nailed it.

I don't need someone rubbing psychological bullshit in my face telling me what I do or do not want. I know for certain that I have NEVER and WILL NEVER ever like or want some stupid flashy numbers telling me "ooooh, you scored a 'NOTHER kill! Wheeee! teeheheehe!!!"

I don't give a shit if people want to use it, but I for one do not.


If you don't want a feature, as miniscule as exp popping up, why am I not allowed to toggle it off? Why would you argue against it? Don't tell me what I want.

Point out where exactly I said this. Do not forge imaginary arguments from things I have not said.


Get over it, popups are going to stay whether gamers SAY they dislike them or not. They're in games now because they give the player a cathartic feeling of accomplishment, constantly. They'll stick around because it's part of what creates and maintains player addiction, whether the player realises it and bitches about it mistakenly or not.

Psychology is fun.

You may think this, but psychologically it creates a cathartic release and that's why it's become a staple of fps games. Gaming psychology, it's part of what creates and maintains an addiction in players.

This debate won't change anything at all, it's going to be in the game because it's part of what sucks in and maintains players playing more. Yes, even you folks that say you dislike it.

Nothing, in the eyes of the player. In the eyes of game designers it's removing a key feature that plays a part in gamer psychology and addiction. Making successful games isn't just about making a good game anymore, that's part of it, the other part is the psychology, how to make players play more, play longer, and invest themselves in a game. For this reason, I seriously do not see it going away, and fully understand that.


Don't you think it's wrong to rely on subliminally message the player into liking the game with mind numbing numbers. You did say that that's not all there is to it, so I was wrong to say that's the entire basis of your argument. However, it certainly is the main focal point of your argument. You're making the importance of pop up exp seem more important than it really is. It's not like if pop up exp isn't in the game then it's going to be colossal disaster that no one will play. Besides that's not what I'm asking, I'm merely asking for an option to disable it if you so choose.

[megamold]

well i'm not saying that i think popups have to be in the game, i would love it if they made it just an option.
what i'm saying is that this descision might not be up to higby and his crew, it was most likely made by SOE and publisher trumps developer everytime

and no its not like the game will bomb without it but if every 1 in 50 players plays more because of it ( and other addiction tricks) and therefore spends more money, it will be mission accomplished for SOE

[Graywolves]

As far as psychological methods go, it's a gimick that loses its flair quickly. As I said.


To some players it is like having a back seat driver yell and get excited every time you do something awesome. Going "WOAH YOU KILLED THAT GUY!" and after about an hour you just want to strangle him to death.

To some it works very well.


In WoW you have a big golden light come out of you when you level, it's like that.


http://lmgtfy.com/?q=psychology+gaming

[Skitrel]

Don't you think it's wrong to rely on subliminally message the player into liking the game with mind numbing numbers. You did say that that's not all there is to it, so I was wrong to say that's the entire basis of your argument. However, it certainly is the main focal point of your argument. You're making the importance of pop up exp seem more important than it really is. It's not like if pop up exp isn't in the game then it's going to be colossal disaster that no one will play. Besides that's not what I'm asking, I'm merely asking for an option to disable it if you so choose.

It's not subliminal, subliminal manipulation is entirely different and in fact there's research that shows subliminal messaging doesn't actually work. Subliminal messaging is the act of hiding hidden messages in subject matter, either through single frame flashing or linguistic manipulation in order to influence a person into thinking about something without having realised they were exposed to it with the overall goal of getting someone to do something without knowing someone had tried to get them to do something. It doesn't work though and despite the uproar years back when it was originally made illegal, it's fairly debunked now.

On the corrected question of, do I think manipulating people into enjoying themselves through the use of interesting psychological effects is ethical? Yes I do.

There are 3 types of gamer(generalising), those of us that play for cathartic release, we want to enjoy ourselves and relax, it's a laugh. Those of us that play for ego, to be a "winner", to feel accomplishment, achievement, beating others and being above them. And then there are those that cross both (the largest group).

I think it's perfectly ethical to use these mental effects in this form, it is essentially "fine tuning" to take a good game and make it really make the players feel good about themselves and get the effects that motivate them to play games in the first place. It's imperceptible, it's something people don't think about, but it's a driving force as to why they play and continue playing.

I'm not saying that a little popup is the be all and end all, I never have. It is however a single part of a large system of player influences that are in games, it's going to stick around, and it should, for as long as it gives players that cathartic release and sense of achieving something (however small).

And we'll continue seeing it, in all games, right up until someone implements something that influences the player in an even stronger way.

Now, if it were actually subliminal messaging, and it worked, then it would be unethical. It is not however trying to get the player to do anything, it is simply trying to make the player feel good about having just shot someone. Positive reinforcement+cathartic release+sense of achievement.

EDIT: Now there IS a counter argument to be had here. One could argue that it positively reinforces killing, therefore it teaches players to be killwhores. From that angle I'll agree that there's possible gameplay effects that should be explored. Personally wish I had the means to parse statistics on the kind of level that these game companies do behind the scenes, seeing the difference in player behaviour with and without a mechanism like this would be very interesting.

[Dir]

If the only thing this game has to keep players hooked is little numbers periodically popping up, then the game is screwed. There's more to keeping players hooked than the strange psychological theories you have.


Even if that were the case, maybe I don't want to be subconsciously hypnotized into playing the game for hours by little numbers contentiously popping up in my screen. In fact, I do play Battlefield and those numbers actually piss me off and make me want to play the game LESS.


Also, you could already recognize your kill confirmation in PS1, it was listed in the killspam box. You could easily tell in your peripheral vision when you got a kill because you'd see an icon separated by a few lines of text explaining that you got the kill and how much it was worth. Besides, it's like I'm going to shoot at a guy then stutter around for a few seconds in confusion because I didn't know if I got the kill or not.

I have to agree I had a “cathartic release” a couple of minutes ago in the WC and don't need to see it on my monitor. Maybe the kiddies that require a “cathartic release” can drag and drop it onto their second monitor long as I'm not FORCED to view it. It's about time these game devs start realizing we have dual video cards in our machines with multiple ports on each and at least start to make use of our second monitors for their ui toys. Far as that goes with all these apps becoming available with developer kits can't someone just as easily connect to the stat server and have a cool image of their characters on a web-page on their second monitor with all their stats being updated dynamically? Then people can write their own apps and do as they please maybe even have it ghosted in as an overlay or stuck on their iphone.

Let kids be kids we can't make them grow up any faster than they already are but I'm turning 40 this year and all I want to see on the screen are uniforms, if it's purple shoot it, if it's blue shoot it! Seeing 500 friendly name tags with floating arrows pointing down at their heads isn't something I'm looking forward to and would appreciate some customization options. A completely configurable ui to limit name tag opacity, fade, cull distance, distance from cross hair...totally cleans up the screen and makes for a more immersive environment where you have to think before you shoot. Besides I think the devs will give us what we want unless they are merciless prima donnas like Lucas trying to force Jar Jar down our throats.....Han shot first!!!

Dir

[Death2All]

It's not subliminal, subliminal manipulation is entirely different and in fact there's research that shows subliminal messaging doesn't actually work. Subliminal messaging is the act of hiding hidden messages in subject matter, either through single frame flashing or linguistic manipulation in order to influence a person into thinking about something without having realised they were exposed to it with the overall goal of getting someone to do something without knowing someone had tried to get them to do something. It doesn't work though and despite the uproar years back when it was originally made illegal, it's fairly debunked now.


It's subliminal in the sense that it's a constant thing popping up in your face that you're not supposed to notice after awhile.



On the corrected question of, do I think manipulating people into enjoying themselves through the use of interesting psychological effects is ethical? Yes I do.

There are 3 types of gamer(generalising), those of us that play for cathartic release, we want to enjoy ourselves and relax, it's a laugh. Those of us that play for ego, to be a "winner", to feel accomplishment, achievement, beating others and being above them. And then there are those that cross both (the largest group).

I think it's perfectly ethical to use these mental effects in this form, it is essentially "fine tuning" to take a good game and make it really make the players feel good about themselves and get the effects that motivate them to play games in the first place. It's imperceptible, it's something people don't think about, but it's a driving force as to why they play and continue playing.


I have to disagree with that. I think it's wrong to purposely exploit a supposed psychological reinforcement method to trick players into liking the game (which doesn't work anyways). The player should able to distinguish by themselves whether or not they like or are addicted to the game. Purposely adding something to keep the player addicted is unethical from my perspective. I know from a business perspective, SOE wants to make a killing and milk as much money from us as possible, but I think purposely adding a trick to keep someone addicted is wrong.

It's almost on par with adding an addictive substance to a prescription to keep the patient buying it, whether or not it's good for them.



I'm not saying that a little popup is the be all and end all, I never have. It is however a single part of a large system of player influences that are in games, it's going to stick around, and it should, for as long as it gives players that cathartic release and sense of achieving something (however small).


If it's not the end all be all, then why are you so adamant on keeping it's inclusion in the game? If it's not that important then why do we have to keep it in the game? You don't need to put mustard on your hotdog if you don't like it, but you have to. :confused:



Now there IS a counter argument to be had here. One could argue that it positively reinforces killing, therefore it teaches players to be killwhores. From that angle I'll agree that there's possible gameplay effects that should be explored. Personally wish I had the means to parse statistics on the kind of level that these game companies do behind the scenes, seeing the difference in player behaviour with and without a mechanism like this would be very interesting.

I think this argument pertains more towards the inclusion of killstreaks. A play test with or without point exp pop ups would be very interesting, I'm willing to bet gameplay won't change very much without the inclusion of exp popping up, but it'd be interesting to see.

[Skitrel]

I have to disagree with that. I think it's wrong to purposely exploit a supposed psychological reinforcement method to trick players into liking the game (which doesn't work anyways). The player should able to distinguish by themselves whether or not they like or are addicted to the game. Purposely adding something to keep the player addicted is unethical from my perspective. I know from a business perspective, SOE wants to make a killing and milk as much money from us as possible, but I think purposely adding a trick to keep someone addicted is wrong.

Define why. What you're saying here is that the intent is the problem, not the mechanic. Originally something like this made it into games the first time because a dev thought it was cool, he had no idea the psychological happenings behind it. What you're saying here is that, because we now understand the psychological happenings it shouldn't be allowed.

Well, in that case, almost every mechanic in games shouldn't be allowed, because they're all purposely chosen to stir an emotional reaction of happiness, enjoyment, catharsis and so on. The entire purpose of games is to mentally stimulate in various ways, as is almost every form of entertainment.

And yes, I'm aware this is a slippery slope argument. It is however, relevant.

[Figment]

Skitrel, that's scaremongering bull.

You can and should design a game to create particular player interactions, emotions, etc.

To not do something because of "A", can be a good reason FOR THAT particular item and does not necessarily have repercursions for anything else.

[Death2All]

Define why. What you're saying here is that the intent is the problem, not the mechanic. Originally something like this made it into games the first time because a dev thought it was cool, he had no idea the psychological happenings behind it. What you're saying here is that, because we now understand the psychological happenings it shouldn't be allowed.

I would first of all have to ask for proof that it was originally added because a dev thought it was cool. How do you know this? I'm not trying to be snippity about this, we just don't know if that was the original intent or not.

How do we know that it's not an applied theory based off of some other form of psychological positive reinforcement?

Well, in that case, almost every mechanic in games shouldn't be allowed, because they're all purposely chosen to stir an emotional reaction of happiness, enjoyment, catharsis and so on. The entire purpose of games is to mentally stimulate in various ways, as is almost every form of entertainment.

You could argue that, but most elements added in games that give players that reactionary emotion of happiness, enjoyment etc. are things that you're actively paying attention to/doing.

People enjoy killstreaks because they're an active thing they can see an keep track of. People enjoy customizing their characters because it's something they're actively doing an in control of, versus a constant pop of information that happens as a direct result of them doing something, whether or not they want to see it or not.



(Also I'm not advocating killstreaks; They are the Devil :evil:)

[NEWSKIS]

At the very least it should have a toggle for it.

I'd rather have it like PS1 where its in a chat box that you can scroll back through. Especially for taking screenshots of rediculous kill streaks :) This way you can see how much exp any given kill gave you and also keeps it less obtrusive.

[DayOne]

How the fuck has a discussion about the xp pop up that was solved pages ago (TOGGLE) turned into a debate about psychology?

I refuse to read it because it will will reveal little and I'm inherently lazy.

Yes games are designed to evoke an emotional response, same way books and music do. IT'S HOW THEY SELL.

Deal with it.


I'd give a longer response but I'm still in shock how something so fucking meaningless gets you all hyped up about "tricking" people into liking a game. WTF?

[Death2All]

How the fuck has a discussion about the xp pop up that was solved pages ago (TOGGLE) turned into a debate about psychology?

I refuse to read it because it will will reveal little and I'm inherently lazy.

Yes games are designed to evoke an emotional response, same way books and music do. IT'S HOW THEY SELL.

Deal with it.


I'd give a longer response but I'm still in shock how something so fucking meaningless gets you all hyped up about "tricking" people into liking a game. WTF?

Now you know how I feel :doh:

[Mastachief]

*angry response"

[Hermes]

*angry response"

*angry tangental response to your response*

*intentional logical fallacies*

*troll face/lol cat*




Btw I fully respect and understand why people might not want this xp scrolling business - even if I like it. Look at the range of interface mods for WOW, different people with different needs.

[StumpyTheOzzie]

Blah blah.. TLDR.

Cathartic blah blah.

I want to see bodies hit the floor and tanks explode. That shit's cathartic.

Why do i need yellow popups too? Because 1 researcher/consultant said that it works on 90% of the population? Well guess what? Everyone thinks they're in the other 10%.

No popups. Get satisfaction in other ways.

[sylphaen]

Please, if an argument is sterile, can you guys please do it in private ? The topic of this thread was not psychology.

It's one thing to post constructively, it's something else to waste others' time bickering with walls of text about an off-topic subject. By now, you should realize that none of you will convince the other party so do a service to other forum members and drop it.

It's hard enough to keep with all the stuff being posted nowadays.