Why Sniper Rifles Should Have 1-Hit Kills (Good read from a NON sniper)

[LiquidThunder]

Personally, I think the sniper rifle SHOULD have one hit kills. It should just be very difficult to do.

Think about it. Contrary to the belief of some people, a sniper rifle's main advantage is NOT it's zoom scope. It's the insane damage it can do to a person completely unexpectedly. The whole point of a sniper is to kill a person before they even knew they were painted.

Of course having a one hit kill weapon brings up alot of complaints if it's poorly executed like the AWP in CS.

In order to work properly, a one-hit-kill (or very close to one-hit-kill) rifle must

A: Reload after every shot, and the reload must take over 3 seconds.
B: Leave a visible bullet trail so that if it misses its mark you can't just shoot again without ppl knowing where you are, of if you hit, people surrounding your victim will know where you came from.
C: As soon as the sniper is hit with ANYthing, he zooms out automatically, forcing him to re-aquire his target.
D: Impossible to fire when not zoomed, preventing effective melee combat use.
E: EXTREME cone-based firing system. If there is ANY movement of body and if the body is in anything but prone position, the rifle needs to be inacurate. Not due to the rifle as a device, which of course is very accurate, but indeed because it is so large and heavy that it would be impossible to quickly draw a bead on a target if you weren't in prone position, and even then it is difficult.



That's a lot of harsh criteria, but if it's all (or the vast majority of it) is met, then a one-hit-kill rifle would rock. It would be impossible to take out more than 3 people from the same position assuming you're not killing Hellen Keller clones, and you'd have to be VERY skilled and practiced to get more than one.

The whole point of having a stealthy sniper unit is so that you can be walking around on a patrol with a squad, and have the guy in front of you or behind you fall limp, COMPLETELY suddenly without any warning. If he simply takes half damage, then what's the point.

If the sniper rifle is handled as described in this post, you will find that once the game is a few months old, there will be some very small guilds of very very good snipers, and virtually no snipers other than this. But the good snipers will be GOOD and will really add a lot to the dynamic of the gameplay. If there were 15 or so REALLY good elite snipers per faction per server, they would be highly revereared by all who play the game, they'd be feared by everyone else, and most importantly, they'd be extremely leathal, but because they're so few in number it wouldn't unbalance the game.

What do you guys think?

-LT


::Addendum::

This obviously doesn't apply to higher armor classes. The 1 shot 1 kill rule as stated above applies only to stealth armor, standard armor, and body/headshots on agile armor.

[LesserShade]

Actually, I would love to see sniping be 1 hit kills, however, it should be as cumbersome as in like Operation Flashpoint. OpF you had to take trajectory into consideration. Needless to say it was very hard to use, but just because of the nature of the game (the insanely large playing fields), it had it's place.

[Fire_Monkey]

The Bolt Driver DOES have 1 shot kills on infl/standard/agile

[Moleculor]

There -is- trajectory in this game.

As far as one hit kill sniper rifles.... change prone to kneeling/crouched, and we have a winner.

Edit: Oops. Sorry. Must add 'Region specific damage' is necessary. Head, heart (not just chest) and neck/spine would be the locations. No one shot kills in the toe please.

[LesserShade]

trajectory for tanks and whatnot yes, but the bolt driver?

[NARF]

all bullets have trajectory, after a given distance they lose thier inertia and spin and begin to drop, as well as slow...

[korezero]

very well said and as you said the AWP in CS is very badly designed... jumping all over the place and getting HeadShots, kind of makes the game boring...

[Discordja]

when did it change from inf/standard to inf/standard/agile?

i am pretty sure that agile wasn't included in that 1 shot kill category.

[Fire_Monkey]

Agile is a one shot kill

[Discordja]

where is that stated at?

[simba]

I think its inf/agi/standard. Hope reinforced is 2 anyway.
Also, there is no region specific dmg, so u can shoot a standard/agile/infiltration suit in the toe with one hit kill.

[Discordja]

i *thought* agile wasn't in that .. someone else *thinks* that is wrong .. it's a huge game of telephone. i just wanna know where it's stated that those 3 armors are 1 shot bait so there's no more discussion about it.

[Fire_Monkey]

Originally posted by Discordja
where is that stated at?

Well, I've seen several discussions on this subject and the general belief is that all 3 are included in the "oneshot kill" grouping. Now the FAQ states that:

Are there one shot kills?
The only one shot kill known is to the weakest armor.

So I was under the impression that standard armor and agile had the same defense but I'm pretty sure that has changed. Though the Bd could still easily deal enough damage to kill agile in one shot. If you have any information that disproves this please post it.

[Discordja]

see .. i remember this ...

Everyone has 100 health (for comparison purposes), and 100 stamina.

Stealth suit: Tiny inventory (3x9? unknown), NO armor points at all, 1 pistol slot. Totally cloaked when not moving, more visible as you move faster. No limit on cloaking time.

Standard suit: 6x9 inventory, 25 armor, 1 pistol, 1 rifle slot.

Agile Exosuit: 9x9 inventory (quite decent), 50 armor, 2 pistols, 1 rifle

Reinforced Exosuit: bigger(12x9? unknown) inventory, 100 armor, 2 pistols, 2 rifles.

The MAXes are empire specific. The VS max has at least 650 (possibly 850, it's hard to read the screenshots) armor, a huge inventory (specificis unknown), and cannot use regular equipment. Each empire has 3 MAX varients, with different weapons, one for AA, one for anti-vehicular, and one for anti-personnel. Weep for the poor fools who run into a max designed to take them out.

so why is the general belief that it can one shot an agile? if someone can prove that the bd does at minimum of 150 points of dmg then it's safe to say it's effectively 1 shot on agiles...but that's a hella lotta dmg to be pumping out.

[Fire_Monkey]

That information is very outdated, Standard/Agile have 100 armor agile perhaps 150. They've upped all armor ratings now.

[Discordja]

will look for some more updated screenshots then. at least i know it's all just hearsay instead of official.

[OmnipotentKiwi]

Originally posted by Fire_Monkey
That information is very outdated, Standard/Agile have 100 armor agile perhaps 150. They've upped all armor ratings now.
Standard has 50 now, actually. This all may change how the bolt driver works since all armor was upped.

I read the post thoroughly, thought about it for a few minutes, and came up with the simple answer:
No.

This is not a normal FPS. You do not respawn quickly and find yourself back in battle. Rounds do not last less then three minutes.

If you die in one shot, you are most likely out of the battle for a long time, if not permanently if there is no where nearby to respawn or a friendly guy who can revive.

I have always been against 1 hit kills in MMORPGs is a stupid thing to have. There is too much down time to be out with no chance to fight. The sniper rifle STILL, even without one hit kills is:
1. One of the most damaging single shot guns in the game.
2. The fastest traveling bullet (physics has less of an effect so it is easier to shoot).
3. One of the most accurate guns in the game.
4. One of the longest range weapons in the game.

So no, I don't think snipers need 1 hit kills to be effective.

[Fire_Monkey]

But it also has

1. Reload after every shot
2. Long relaod time
3. Bad close range handling

I assume this balances it about equally. Still this is all anylitical and, all of this talk does little to effect which armors are killed in one shot

[OmnipotentKiwi]

Originally posted by Fire_Monkey
But it also has

1. Reload after every shot
2. Long relaod time
3. Bad close range handling

All this has 0 effect when you are at a huge range. And at close range, unless you are wearing agile or standard armor, which I doubt, you can switch to a normal weapon.

[Silencer22]

Sniper rifles can have a 1 hit kill or not i don't really care since the game is set in the future....they can do it if they want but that means mostly everyone will probably be a sniper and that will take away from all the other aspects of the game like the other classes medic, hacker etc....all because it is easier just to be a sniper.

[1024]

i agree with that entire list, and i do think 1 hit kills shoudl be applicable on everything except MAX armored untis, which a normal one hit kill should almost cripple a MAX. Although, it shoudln't be liek the AWP in CS, where if you get shot in the rgiht arm, you're dead, it should be a good, clean HEADSHOT, not a graze but a solid hit.

me dodging sniper shots:

:sniper:---------------------------------------------:dance:

[Discordja]

bd should NOT one shot someone in reinforced .. it shouldn't one shot someone in agile either for all the reasons kiwi noted above. i'm only halfway agreeable to standard and inf getting it but only cuz you shouldn't be in combat naked and you can't really snipe an inf stealthed up from a mile away.

this game is unique in the sense when you die you can expect to take lots of time comparative to cs to jump back into the action and getting 1 shot in reinforced is just lame. i'm sorry that you want snipers to be the god class but it will ruin the game for a lot of players .. and i know i'll cancel payment the first time i get 1 shot from full hp/armor by a sniper.

[NARF]

If it's not one shot one kill on SOME people, it is not a sniper class. THe motto of a sniper is one shot, one kill. You should be able to damage a max to some degree, cripple a reinforced, and kill all others in one shot, but there should be rifle wobble and such, to make it so that it's not like in delta force where the scope stays totally stable...

[LiquidThunder]

Sorry if I wasn't clear (and I'll edit the first place) but OBVIOUSLY higher armor classes don't apply to this. That'd be ridiculous.

The one hit thing applies to stealth, standard, and torso/headshots in agile armor only. Not to reinforced and DEFINATELY not to MAX lol
-LT

[Discordja]

i don't agree with that in the least ..

...

ya know what, i'm not gonna argue this point. it's tired and idiotic.

[NARF]

dude, I don't think there are hit locations, its you hit them, they're hurt, period.

[Hellsfire123]

Just a few problems, and im to lazy right now to quote people so just bear with me.

A heavier rifle is actually easier to aim, and has less recoil believe it or not. Why do you think the 50cal tank killers weigh so much? However, to heavy without the prone position available makes the gun worthless, as anyone whos actually shot a gun will tell you.

As to the bullet trajectory, as far as i know there is no bullet drop in game. The nanite bullets deconstruct after a set distance, with the bolt driver having the most range and therefor fastest bullet,

This has been stated, but hey wtf. The are no hit boxes. That means no headshots, no spine shots, just hits. And before anyone complains more about how leg and arm shots shouldnt incapacitate you, read up on bullet dynamics from high caliber rifles. This isnt Hollywood, the shockwave and shock of being hit with something with that much momentum would either kill or put you out of the fight. If you dont believe me, read The Ultimate Sniper. Military and Policer Sniper Training Manual. Give both instant kill points and points designed to take men out of the fights, alone with first hand accounts of what it feel like to be shot.

In the mean time, game wise, the reload really isnt that long. Dont worry about having to take another shot. There is still a cone of fire, so dont worry about CQB sniper style. 3 out of 5 armors go down in one hit, and only one takes more then 2 shots to kill.

[Discordja]

nt

[LiquidThunder]

Just want to take the time to recognize and give appreciation for some of the excellent counter-points presented in this thread.

Many of you have provided excellent, if not flawless counterpoints to all my arguments, and have brought a fresh prespective on the subject to me, for which I am thankful.

Great posting guys!

And for those of you who have posted lame stuff like "this is retarded" etc.. well we hate you, and you're wasting space.

Anyway, thanks guys!
-LT

[FraBaktos]

1 shot kill is only for standard and infiltration suits. it takes 2 shots to kill an agile, but 1 shot ALMOST kills them. Not sure how many shots a standard takes, prolly 2 or 3

[Destroyeron]

I wish it were 1 hit kills for everything with the sniper rifle, but I can live having to choose from the standard agile and infiltrator suits.

[Flameseeker]

This is speculation, all of it. I'm guessing Agile Ends up at 100, Reinforced at 200, Standard at 50, and Infil at 25. MAXes will range from 650-850IMO. I also believe that the Bolt Driver will deliver 150 damage. Why?
Infil=100 health+25 armor=125-150=-25 DEAD
Standard=100 health+50 armor=150-150=0 DEAD
Agile=100+100=200-150=50 HURT BADLY
Reinforced=100+200=300-150=150 HURT
MAX=100+800=900-75(reduced damage against MAX)=825 SCRATCHED

Actually, everything will probably take 15-30% more health damage as a Sniper shot would pierce armor. This is speculation afterall.

[Hife246]

Last I heard about the BD in FAQ, posts in Forums and just general reading the shots per kill go like this..

1 Shot-Agile
-Standard
-Infiltration

2 Shots-Rienforced

I don't know but I'm assuming maybe 4-5 shots- VS MAX

No idea but lots- NC MAX
- TR MAX

Anyway, if I'm wrong can someone plz give me a url of where u heard this?

[SandTrout]

According to Devs, the armor rateings are as follows:

Standard=25
Agile:50
Reinforced:100
These may be subject to change, but they are accepted for now. MAX assumed to be 650-850 according to several screeshots.

All other values of armor are based on screenshots of beta, but not word from devs.

There are no hit-locations, all bullets drop(except maybe rockets and/or energy weapons).

When Hamma got to playtest the BD was powerful enough to do the following:

Stealth/standard=1 shot, 1 kill.
Agile=2 shots for kill, 1 shot to nearly kill.
Reinforced= 3 shots to kill, 2 left it nearly dead.
MAX=Lots.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now for my opinion:

Boltdrivers should be able to get one-shot kills on armors up to Agile if hit-locations were included in the game. However, because of lag issues, hit-locations are not going to be included. This forces the B-D to be one-shot only on standard and stealth as anything higher would make a sniper's job far too easy, especialy since the majority of scouts and pilots/drivers will be in agile armor.

Agiles looseing nearly all their life to a BD shot is enough becaus the sniper could easaly take them out with even just a sidearm. This is not for realism, this is for balance.

On the reason a sniper is powerful:
Accuracy is the sniper's power. This is the sniper's ability, not the rifles, even though rifles are chosen because of thier accuracy. A sniper must be able to adjust for range, wind, and a number of other factors.

The motto of the Sniper is 1-shot, 1-kill because thier accuracy allows for reliable head-shots. If you shoot someone in the head with any type of high-powered rifle (5.56 or 7.62), it will most likely penetrate any protective headware and they will die.

[Hife246]

I think its been bumped up abit, atless they dropped it since the 5th. Agile Armor with 100 dmg capacity (http://www.gamerspulse.com/modules/Screenshots2003/Planetside/image8.jpg)

edit: This is HIGHLY doubtful but it could even be Standard.

[SandTrout]

I just go with what the Devs have said, and who knows, it might be 100%. Besides, I suspect someone may be violateing the NDA with those screenshots...

Oh well, we just have to trust in the devs to make the right decisions.

[Hife246]

Yep.. Personaly I'm a very Hardcore sniper. I absolutely lov eit. But the major advantage of a sniper is being able to get that head shot to get the one hit kill and not let teh enemy kno where u are.

I'm ok with how it is so far but I think u shoudl be able to kill up to Agile with one shot from a BD. And as for distance, beleive me, it doesn't matter much. I've played smart players and once they get teh warning that a sniper is around they run behind trees and into bushes and spread out t'ill one they kill me or two I run away and they finaly give up lookign for me. BUt in that time, I would've MAYBE been able to get 2 shots away and shince it tells u where ur getitng hit, if shoot someone and ti doesn't kill them then he can tell everyone in his squad what direction ur in and they can all take cover and move up to where u are while laying some cover fire out so u can't get another shot away.

[Discordja]

i just think you are gonna see a TON of people wearing agile armor if it gives any mobility gain over rf. if that's the case we are looking at snipers basically being able to kill about 40% of the population on a single shot .. add in the fact that you just have to his them in the toe to kill them and you've got an overpowered weapon. to boot, when you do 1 shot kill the guy they'll probably have to wait up to 10 minutes to see action again...and he had absolutely no way to combat you. that's not fun for them.

[Hife246]

Thats why I said Yep in response to Sand Trouts post eve though I don't think it is really notice able. I really do agree with it and uderstand why. I just decided to throw in some of my opinions thats all.

[Lexington_Steele]

Originally posted by Hife246
Last I heard about the BD in FAQ, posts in Forums and just general reading the shots per kill go like this..

1 Shot-Agile
-Standard
-Infiltration

2 Shots-Rienforced

I don't know but I'm assuming maybe 4-5 shots- VS MAX

No idea but lots- NC MAX
- TR MAX

Anyway, if I'm wrong can someone plz give me a url of where u heard this?
I have been under the impression that Agile was two hit kill for the bolt driver ever since Hamma got to play in the internal beta (I forgot exactly where I heard it although I remember it was a reliable source. This very easily could have changed).

If anyone has seen a developer, or someone who has tested the game, say otherwise I would love to see a link.

Before we make snipers really powerful we must remember that people will have 2 rifle slots so a sniper could carry a shotgun/bolt driver or a bolt driver/anti-vehicle weapon. This type of combination could render medium assault weapons obsolete if the bolt driver is too good. Who knows, maybe thats a good thing.

[Discordja]

the BD in FAQ

they've never stated for certain what the db can one shot in any official faqs ..

hamma, wanna give us any enlightenment on what the db could do while you were in beta? :P

[�io]

In honor to Hamma :

http://www.photo.net/photo/pcd1661/dead-horse-point-sign-62.3.jpg

:D

[Bighoss]

snipers should never have a one hit kill they should be pretty crappy in my opinion. most of the polls at the station show that like 35% of people will be snipers and like 25% stealth suit. That is about 60% covert opps type people making for a compelety retarded game that isn't meant to be played out with snipers and stealth. This isn't rainbow 6 being killed without having a chance to fight back in a game where it takes a long time to get places in one shot is insane. It would ruin it and would only feed the hunger of snipers and within 6 months the game would be nothing by snipers and stealth suits because no one would want to get sniped.

[Discordja]

:spam: :spam: :spam: :spam: :spam:

[�io]

:banplz:

[Hife246]

Once again, yes I agree with what has been said it should only be one hit for standard and Infiltration.

On another note, I'll be using Agile for the simple reason u can run faster in it than rienforced therefore I'll only have one rifle slot and a pistol or so (not exactly sure about the rest but i know only one rifle slot). I understand that teh game needs to be balanced and that the time it would take to go from one place to teh othe rto actualy get into a fight + spawn times and everyting else could take a very long time. I'll also be doing some asault so don't worry.

Lexington I heard about Hamma now and I see Agile is 2 shots. Thank you

[NARF]

I'm going to use agile, with a bolt driver in my rifle slot and an AMP and Mag scatter for my pistols. I guess I'm just going to use the standard NC knife, unless I can put something more useful in that slot. See, sniping, as i see it in PS, will be both difficult and easy. Easy, because of all of the plants and hills and such, but difficult because there is no prone, no camo, and those together make it very easy to see a sniper. If you are kneeling down on top of a ridge, it is VERY easy to see you because you are an unnatural shape on the horizon, if you go halfway down the hill like you should, the armor (in most environments) will stick out. I think the devs can handle the sniper thing anyway, it IS what the beta is for.

[LesserShade]

I still kinda like the idea of the BD working like Op Flashpoint sniper rifles. So excruciatingly tedious that 95% of would be snipers would rather run head on into battle armed with only a chainblade than have to deal with trying to dispatch targets from a reasonable distance with the BD.

[Hellsfire123]

Id like to avoid making sniping stupidly hard. We can put the usual things in to make it to hard for everyone to do, but not so hard that there are no snipers.

- Uncontrolable wobble is stupid. Unless it follows a pattern that a skilled person can anticipate.
-Inacuracy while moving is a must. I dont want leaping flying still half in the air headshots i see in CS(i know there are not hitboxes)
-Weapon slow down. Should the boltdriver slow down run speed? maybe, well have to see.
-Zooming accuracy. Will accuracy and steadiness increase or decrease with zoom level? In CS, zooming makes for more accurate shots even in close range. I say yes to that.
-slow reload, has to stay. I dont wanna be spammed to death, but i also dont want to have to relocate after each shot becuase i cant get another of before im spotted.

[Zatrais]

Just to clear some things up, the boltdriver will currently kill Stand and Infiltration suits in 1 shot. Only those 2, agile is NOT 1 hit kill whit a sniper rifle.

Proof:
http://www.planetside-universe.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=704

Reinforced armor is 150 armor
http://www.actiontrip.com/rei/scr.phtml?cat=p&pic=planetside_p22

Agile is 100
http://www.gamerspulse.com/modules/Screenshots2003/Planetside/image1.jpg

Standard is 50
http://www.actiontrip.com/rei/scr.phtml?cat=p&pic=planetside_p23

I'd vagure and say inf is 25, going by the faster means lighter armor that SJ mentioned in the latest dev interview.

EDIT: Figured i'd provide proof on the 1 hit kill statement.