Vehicle refunds

[CutterJohn]

Vehicles cost resources to pull, ofc, but what happens when you've used it, kept it alive, and now are done with it?

I propose that you can get refunded for the resources if you hit deconstruct while in a friendly SOI.

[SniperSteve]

It would have to be a partial refund, I think. Otherwise you could deconstruct a damaged vehicle for a new one, and that might get abused.

[Mastachief]

Make it so it has to be 100% health vehicle. And only ever a 40% refund on the resources.

I like the idea sort of like replicator recycling in star trek (not a trekkie but i've watched some).

It would kinda fit with the nanite thingie

[Dahlian]

Neat idea, would love to see this added.

[Ruffdog]

refund 100% for first 10 seconds - accidental pulling - to a big drop off later than this?

[Goku]

There should be some kind of recycling option for vehicles in my opinion. Has to be less then 50% in order to make people just want to pull another vehicle instead of their current one instead due to the resource loss.

I like Ruffdog's idea as well. I would click the wrong vehicle several times a week playing PS. I wouldn't be too happy to lose X amount of credits due to a wrong click.

[headcrab13]

Good idea Cutter. Maybe give the player a refund percentage based on the vehicle's condition. If it's down to 50% health, you get a 50% refund.

[Goku]

Good idea Cutter. Maybe give the player a refund percentage based on the vehicle's condition. If it's down to 50% health, you get a 50% refund.

It can't work this way. If a vehicle is 100% you get 100% resources back according to this. Allowing people to get a full credit back will put the whole point of resources for vehicles to being nothing. Just due to them knowing they can get the full amount back and not being more thoughtful as to what to pull.

[Ailos]

Full refunds for full-health vehicles - if you've been using it in the field, you've probably been repairing it in the field, too. (I don't know if the nanites inside glueguns count for anything, but at least the time you spend repairing should be worth it.) Otherwise, refund is proportional to the vehicle. If you don't have an engineer in your team and you've just come back from the line with 10% health on the vanny, you only get 10% of the credit (for basically, recycling the thing).

So in other words, refund amount directly proportional to vehicle health on return.

It can't work this way. If a vehicle is 100% you get 100% resources back according to this. Allowing people to get a full credit back will put the whole point of resources for vehicles to being nothing. Just due to them knowing they can get the full amount back and not being more thoughtful as to what to pull.
EDIT: In theory, that could be problematic, but in reality, if you pull the wrong kind of vehicle, you'll be toast before you could even stop to repair it. And then you've nothing to return. I can see the point of where vehicles should cost something, but think of it like borrowing a book from the library - if you return it in the same condition you got it, it doesn't cost you anything.

Then again, there's always a middle ground - I do think that the amount returned should be proportional to the health, but maybe doesn't have to be proportional to the original cost - maybe the most you can get in return is 80%.

[CutterJohn]

It can't work this way. If a vehicle is 100% you get 100% resources back according to this. Allowing people to get a full credit back will put the whole point of resources for vehicles to being nothing. Just due to them knowing they can get the full amount back and not being more thoughtful as to what to pull.

It would only make resources meaningless if the vehicle never gets destroyed. I'm fairly confident that an extremely healthy majority of vehicles will end their lives as rubble in the battlefield, and obviously these would NOT be refunded. :)


Has to be less then 50% in order to make people just want to pull another vehicle instead of their current one instead due to the resource loss

Can you rephrase that? I don't quite catch your meaning.



At any rate, I really don't see a reason that you wouldn't get a full refund. If the game had an actual functioning economy, you could sell it to someone, and there is no logical reason the empire wouldn't take back the vehicle. Or heck, logically you'd be able to park it somewhere for later use, like you could stash weapons in a locker in PS1. Sure there could be a 'garage', but selling it back for 100% accomplishes the exact same thing.

Condition would also be meaningless, since repairs won't take resources. It would just add the time wasting step of having to repair the vehicle first before selling it back.

[Stardouser]

It can't work this way. If a vehicle is 100% you get 100% resources back according to this. Allowing people to get a full credit back will put the whole point of resources for vehicles to being nothing. Just due to them knowing they can get the full amount back and not being more thoughtful as to what to pull.

If you're actually using the vehicles, you're likely to get a lot of them killed and thus unrefundable, and if you're skilled enough not to get them destroyed, what's the problem? And if you're not even taking them into combat, where's the harm in a refund there?

[Goku]

Depending on how the vehicle operator/crew make use of the vehicle it maybe harder to actually get that vehicle destroyed. I could go for several hours in a Vanguard in PS in pop locked fights if I was driving properly, I don't see why this can't be the same in PS2.

What it comes down to for me is I don't want people just switching out of their current vehicle to something else just due to being able to get a full refund. A player should be smart with their resources. Being able to get a full refund for major purchases like vehicles prevents this in my opinion. If someone decides that a certain vehicle isn't to their liking for the current combat situation they can freely just recycle it for another. A player should instead have to choose whether to take the cut in resources or continue to fight in the current vehicle till it dies.

[CutterJohn]

How about a garage then? Same functionality as the locker in PS1. You don't get refunds, but you don't lose your resources if you decide to take a break.

The problem with a partial refund is if you stop playing the game, your resources just go poof. Thats not smart use of them, nor particularly fair.

[Goku]

For people logging off I guess thats possible. As long as its limited to perhaps one vehicle. That way we do not have a stock pile of vehicles we can pull out.

[Stardouser]

How about you only get one refund per half hour/hour/whatever is balanced?

[Lokster]

Depending on how the vehicle operator/crew make use of the vehicle it maybe harder to actually get that vehicle destroyed. I could go for several hours in a Vanguard in PS in pop locked fights if I was driving properly, I don't see why this can't be the same in PS2.

What it comes down to for me is I don't want people just switching out of their current vehicle to something else just due to being able to get a full refund. A player should be smart with their resources. Being able to get a full refund for major purchases like vehicles prevents this in my opinion. If someone decides that a certain vehicle isn't to their liking for the current combat situation they can freely just recycle it for another. A player should instead have to choose whether to take the cut in resources or continue to fight in the current vehicle till it dies.

I agree. I think 100% refunds is a silly idea and promotes thoughtless gameplay.

[CutterJohn]

For people logging off I guess thats possible. As long as its limited to perhaps one vehicle. That way we do not have a stock pile of vehicles we can pull out.

Just logging off? I disagree. For doing whatever else you wish. Its just a game. Some people enjoy vehicle gameplay, and want the freedom to switch vehicles like infantry can switch classes.

I agree. I think 100% refunds is a silly idea and promotes thoughtless gameplay.

Like playing smart and keeping your vehicle alive so you have the option of refunding it and using it again later? Thats smart gameplay to me. To each their own I guess.

[Goku]

For this I don't think having a limiter on is something that solves this. Having a vehicle out after X seconds means you can get say a 40% refund on it if it proves not to be what you want out there. If its under X amount of seconds you get a full refund due to selecting the wrong vehicle. For players logging off if they want to store their current vehicle in a bay limited to the foot holds (maybe?) that is doable for people wanting to switch out. A bay/garage will just be a panel people go to in order to retrieve the vehicle. Its not player housing.

@ Cutter. Thats fine. It didn't cross my mind as I only saw people logging off. You can put the vehicle away in the garage I guess at any time.

[headcrab13]

Being able to get a full refund for major purchases like vehicles prevents this in my opinion. If someone decides that a certain vehicle isn't to their liking for the current combat situation they can freely just recycle it for another. A player should instead have to choose whether to take the cut in resources or continue to fight in the current vehicle till it dies.

I think this is the real difference of opinion here: how much the vehicles will actually cost. I didn't see what you were getting at until you mentioned that they'd be a "major purchase."

My gut instinct says that vehicles will be somewhat costly when you're brand new to the game, but after playing for a few days/weeks, vehicles of all kinds will be a dime a dozen. In that case, you'd agree that refunds (full refunds or otherwise) don't really matter much, right?

[Stardouser]

Just logging off? I disagree. For doing whatever else you wish. Its just a game. Some people enjoy vehicle gameplay, and want the freedom to switch vehicles like infantry can switch classes.

I don't really see the problem with vehicle refunds. If you never risked your vehicle, there is no harm in getting another, if you risked it and remained alive, you've earned it.

So: Log in, hear there's an attack on X base, grab a vehicle and go, get there just in time to learn that it's devolved to infantry only door camping/throwing yourselves bodily at the doors, and you either waste your vehicle by jumping out to join, or spend 10 minutes driving somewhere else where there are vehicles needed.

And changing your role on the fly is called "Sandbox Play", something to be protected and promoted. HOWEVER, the penalty could be more severe based on temporal brevity, such as: Request an immediate refund, you only receive 20%(at least you get something). 5 minutes later you get 40%, 20 minutes later you get 100%.

[Goku]

I think this is the real difference of opinion here: how much the vehicles will actually cost. I didn't see what you were getting at until you mentioned that they'd be a "major purchase."

My gut instinct says that vehicles will be somewhat costly when you're brand new to the game, but after playing for a few days/weeks, vehicles of all kinds will be a dime a dozen. In that case, you'd agree that refunds (full refunds or otherwise) don't really matter much, right?

I haven't kept track of the resource process as much as others have. I am pretty sure the developers have said resources are not going to be to the point where you do not know what to do with them. I am sure people will be able to pull vehicles, but in terms of resources I am assuming its going to be one of the higher costs. If people could do whatever they wished like in the original PS, there would be no reason in having resources in the first place.

[headcrab13]

If people could do whatever they wished like in the original PS, there would be no reason in having resources in the first place.

Yeah I agree, you don't want resources to feel "empty" and useless, and let the economy (of sorts) get out of hand.

On the other side of the coin, though, vehicle gameplay is an integral part of the Planetside experience and I doubt they'll make you run around on foot most of the game, scrounging for a few more resources and wishing for a set of wheels.

[Goku]

I don't see vehicle gameplay being hampered by the new system. In PS you could do suicide runs due to only having a 5 minute timer if you wished with a tank. Now with the resource system I don't think people will be doing such runs as often. Going to the extreme if I was bored I would just do GG, Galaxy, and lodestar runs into packed bases for quite a few runs. I probably won't be doing this in the new game due to my resources getting depleted rather quickly.

[CutterJohn]

No, thats just getting too complex, and largely pointless. Vehicles aren't going to be some major expense. You won't be saving all evening for a tank. You'll save for a few minutes for one. I just had this idea to get rid of a minor annoyance, that when you were done with a vehicle it was wasted resources.

I guess we'll just have to disagree that switching vehicles is bad. I see it as no different than switching infantry, which is also free.

[headcrab13]

This may be a little late in the thread to mention this, but I was just looking over a recent interview with Higby. According to that, the vehicles themselves won't cost ANY resources, which would nullify the refund question:

(From the "What We Know" sticky)
- Resources never limit what vehicles you can pull
- Resources are used to add modifications to vehicles, such as mortar/better AI/etc on tank for secondary gunner
- Resources can unlock things forever; not a 100% constant drain of resources for everything
- Resource poor empires can still pull all vehicles / weapons

[Goku]

Ok well that I didn't know. Thanks for the clarification....

[Stardouser]

This may be a little late in the thread to mention this, but I was just looking over a recent interview with Higby. According to that, the vehicles themselves won't cost ANY resources, which would nullify the refund question:

(From the "What We Know" sticky)
- Resources never limit what vehicles you can pull
- Resources are used to add modifications to vehicles, such as mortar/better AI/etc on tank for secondary gunner
- Resources can unlock things forever; not a 100% constant drain of resources for everything
- Resource poor empires can still pull all vehicles / weapons

Better AI?

[Goku]

AI = Anti Infantry

[CutterJohn]

This may be a little late in the thread to mention this, but I was just looking over a recent interview with Higby. According to that, the vehicles themselves won't cost ANY resources, which would nullify the refund question:

(From the "What We Know" sticky)
- Resources never limit what vehicles you can pull
- Resources are used to add modifications to vehicles, such as mortar/better AI/etc on tank for secondary gunner
- Resources can unlock things forever; not a 100% constant drain of resources for everything
- Resource poor empires can still pull all vehicles / weapons

Interesting.

Well. New question then will be can we get refunds on the mods when we tire of the vehicle or want to change it up. :lol:

[Goku]

Are mods what you buy and its permanent? As in you can equip without cost later.

This is why I though tanks will cost resources from awhile ago:

• Resources needed from this land to pull advanced vehicles

Is this no longer the case?

[headcrab13]

This is why I though tanks will cost resources from awhile ago:

• Resources needed from this land to pull advanced vehicles

Yeah that is kind of confusing. It was in an earlier Q&A with Higby, and then he clarified later with those things I mentioned (no cost even to poor empires, etc).

I'm assuming by "advanced vehicles" they mean a standard vehicle plus upgrades like rocket launchers, better afterburners, heavier plating, etc.

[headcrab13]

Interesting.

Well. New question then will be can we get refunds on the mods when we tire of the vehicle or want to change it up. :lol:

Yeah haha, I figured you'd bring that up :D A valid question, though. I personally think if you go into heavy combat and return to the base with your vehicle intact, you should be able to get the majority of your resources back (if any were spent on upgrades).

[EVILPIG]

A refund for accidental pulls, say 30 seconds is appropriate, but nothing after that. You pay resources for the power of a vehicle. You get to run around and own with your aircraft/vehicle, you don't deserve a refund for it. If you keep it alive a long time, great, your reward is not having to buy another one yet. Refunds would skew the entire balance of having to pay resources.

[Stardouser]

Here's the solution:
If you don't drive the vehicle off the pad, you can get a full refund within 30 seconds, and you can get one refund per 18 hours for vehicles you have driven off the pad.

[Nobel]

This reminds me of the RTB system in WWII online, which I really like, although encouraging people to go back to base to "stay alive" and save their resources is not in the best interest of SOE financially, or the "fast paced" nature of the games design.

[Rocknoise]

Refunding vehicles would fit to new planetside style ... resources are important. I´d really appreciate those mechanics.

[EVILPIG]

This reminds me of the RTB system in WWII online, which I really like, although encouraging people to go back to base to "stay alive" and save their resources is not in the best interest of SOE financially, or the "fast paced" nature of the games design.

Return to base returned the vehicle to the pool your country shared, not a personal pool.

[kaffis]

I agree with Goku, here. I don't mind refunds to avoid penalizing misclicks, or garages whose purpose is to make the decision to abandon vehicular gameplay with a healthy vehicle (like when logging off, or when the outfit moves to an infantry-advantaged area, etc.) less punitive.

However, what I don't want to see is people pulling a vehicle, taking it to the fight, seeing a lot of scissors to their vehicle's paper, and retreating to swap it out for a rock vehicle. I'd rather see people have some incentive to stick around with that paper vehicle and cautiously look for rocks to kill.

This could be as simple as "I keep driving with my anti-infantry gun, even though we're losing the air war and those enemy fighters are becoming a greater threat."

Doing so promotes more teamwork -- you call for your team to bring in more anti-air instead of just taking your vehicle back to a terminal, fixing it up, and swapping it out yourself.

I think penalizing such casual tactical swapping will result in less variety on the battlefield, and fewer true combined arms operations as more people just "scout" what the enemy composition is and then call all their friends to turn in whatever they're using and spam the best counters to the enemy composition. And I think that's a good thing to strive for, because spammed counters and less variety ends up being shallower gameplay.

[Malorn]

Something to consider is that the permanent cost of the vehicle in resources may be an intentional resource sink.

Switching loadouts might be another one. I haven't heard anything about being refunded the resources spent on your previous loadout when you switch to a new loadout.

If they enable these sorts of partial refunds then it will inadvertently affect the resource income rate. Since we'd be getting refunds or partial refunds we'd have more resources than otherwise anticipated. One consequence of this is that they may need to tone down resource generation, which would have other impacts.

I think it's simpler and easier to balance by not having any refunds. On the surface refunds seem like a good idea but they create a ripple in the resource balance that can have other far reaching consequences on the resource dynamics because they have to be accounted for. I'd rather them not be accounted for and assume that any loadout used or any vehicle created permanently consumes resources.

If they do the balance right we won't need it anyway and instead of getting resources from stuff you already have/used you'll be getting it from new sources which makes it more dynamic.

Edit: The misclick situation could be avoided by giving you a "grace period" of a few seconds after buying something to destroy it and buy something else and get a full refund. That seems like a good scenario for refunds that won't affect the overall resource balance but does allow a limited "buyback" option for misclicks.

[Blackwolf]

It can't work this way. If a vehicle is 100% you get 100% resources back according to this. Allowing people to get a full credit back will put the whole point of resources for vehicles to being nothing. Just due to them knowing they can get the full amount back and not being more thoughtful as to what to pull.

On the flip side, people would care a whole lot more about keeping their vehicles alive rather then wasting them on reckless behavior.

Personally I think if you decon in a friendly territory, you get a % based on the % of health it has back. If you decon in enemy territory, you'd get back half of it's "value" (a vehicle with 50% health would give back 25% worth of resources).

This means that when you drive the vehicle out of the base and into enemy territory, you have to think before simply abandoning it to go assault the interior. Because if you come back and it's gone, you just lost all those resources.

[Stew]

No reffund for vehicules buy on purpose i mean as soon as u have use the vehicules for even a second their is no refund !

A purshase is a purshase people will have to learn to buy their thing properly !

If any refund mecanics is in place anyones will be able to transform any (( NOT destroyed yet vehicules in another )) And will have INFINITE ressource whiout even have to harvest some new ones !

SO iam badly agains it, its agains the entire ressources collections WAR !

[Talek Krell]

As Malorn pointed out, vehicles are probably one of the economy's money sinks. And if PS2 vehicles are as survivable as PS1 vehicles then refunds would result in a lot less money being sunk into them. I think a partial refund would be most appropriate. I would base it on a combination of time used and condition of the vehicle. A fresh tank that you bought by accident could be turned in for a full refund, where a fully repaired one that you've been romping around in for an hour has essentially paid out to you and can't be just traded in. Or at least not for full price.

The condition does need to be a factor as well, or we may end up with people deconstructing and buying a new vehicle instead of just fixing the one they have.

[Soothsayer]

My view on this changes depending on how scarce resources are and how expensive upgrades are.

A lot of the options have been covered, all that I can add is that they should use veh acquisition from PS1 as a baseline. If your faction holds 1/3 of the continent then it should take about five minutes to accumulate enough resources to purchase a vehicle with the sidegrades you want.

Even the five minute rule could be too conservative, given that the devs have stated as a part of their marketing that they are trying to speed up gameplay. Speeding up the kills for one person ultimately means speeding up the fodder on the other side of the barrel.

Every time you have a successful run (one that lasts longer than the time to acquire enough resources to pay for the next vehicle) then you're rewarded with another chance to do another run immediately after the current one if you get owned right away.

At no point should you be forced to a certain playstyle due to resource limitations. There should always be an option for pulling a vehicle, albeit you may not be able to pull a vehicle that is as customized as you would like. Much in the same way that you would never assume to be unable to pull a basic loadout as an infantry due to resource limitations. Core playstyles should always be available, their advanced variants will be more resource intensive and will be an advancement over the basic (free) stuff.

[EDIT: Back on the thread topic though, I don't have a problem with a refund on resources when you recycle a vehicle. If you've kept it alive it's your prerogative as to how to dispose of your vehicle. I think that if there are conditions to be met as to where you can scrap it and what state it has to be in when it gets ground up that covers a lot of the objections raised.

Assuming that sidegrades are the only thing that actually costs when pulling a veh, I'd like to see vehicle rearm terminals come back. This could be the point where you would recycle your veh or swap the loadout. If there was going to be a place where you could get any kind of refund (full or partial) this would be where it makes sense to do that.]

[Figment]

How about you just accept you spend the resources and have to make a strategic decision to pull something now or in five or twenty minutes?


My word, decisions! D: Strategy! TOO COMPLEX! MUST ZERG!

[Soothsayer]

How about you just accept you spend the resources and have to make a strategic decision to pull something now or in five or twenty minutes?


My word, decisions! D: Strategy! TOO COMPLEX! MUST ZERG!

Thought experiment: Consider Planetside 1 with 20 minute vehicle timers. What happens?

[The Kush]

A refund for accidental pulls, say 30 seconds is appropriate, but nothing after that. You pay resources for the power of a vehicle. You get to run around and own with your aircraft/vehicle, you don't deserve a refund for it. If you keep it alive a long time, great, your reward is not having to buy another one yet. Refunds would skew the entire balance of having to pay resources.

Agreed

[Erendil]

A refund for accidental pulls, say 30 seconds is appropriate, but nothing after that. You pay resources for the power of a vehicle. You get to run around and own with your aircraft/vehicle, you don't deserve a refund for it. If you keep it alive a long time, great, your reward is not having to buy another one yet. Refunds would skew the entire balance of having to pay resources.

Pretty much this. The use of resources is the economic cost you pay for being able to pull and use a customized vehicle more suited to your playstyle, presumably with the result of making you more combat effective. Once you start using that vehicle you are in essence "getting your money's worth."

I'd only be okay with giving out refunds for accidental pulls. But TBH I'm not sure if that will even be an issue with the PS2-style vehicle acquisition screens.

On the flip side, people would care a whole lot more about keeping their vehicles alive rather then wasting them on reckless behavior.

I'm not sure I'd call that a flip side. It's hard enough to get people to push forward as it is. And sometimes "reckless behavior" is exactly what's needed to get the job done. :p

But by offering refunds for vehicles even after they've been used in combat, you run the risk people playing it too safe for fear of losing the chance to get their refund later on when they no longer need that vehicle. So they'll sit back and spam, won't push forward when they need to, and run away for repairs at the first sign of a door ding. Besides, We already have an initial resource cost to help curtail needlessly reckless behavior. I'd rather people feel free to take the necessary combat risks when needed once they've paid the price for the initial acquisition. :cool:

In addition, I fear offering refunds will make people more reluctant to leave their vehicle in the first place once the fight moves inside the base, much like what happened with BFR's while they still had the huge timer (45 minutes IIRC). People won't want to leave their vehicle unattended for fear of it getting destroyed and the potential for refund getting lost so instead they'll just sit outside in their cozy vehicles and spam instead of getting out and actually taking the base.

[CutterJohn]

In addition, I fear offering refunds will make people more reluctant to leave their vehicle in the first place once the fight moves inside the base, much like what happened with BFR's while they still had the huge timer (45 minutes IIRC). People won't want to leave their vehicle unattended for fear of it getting destroyed and the potential for refund getting lost so instead they'll just sit outside in their cozy vehicles and spam instead of getting out and actually taking the base.

That is a very fair point, but I think its an argument for giving a refund anywhere at all, instead of an argument for giving no refunds.

1. No refunds: Vehicle upgrades cost money. You do not want to ditch the tank to go indoors, since your vehicle may very well die if left unattended(especially if they put in vehicle hacking).
2. Refunds back at base. You do not want to ditch the tank to go indoors, but if the fight looks to be long enough, you may well decide to go back to base and refund it, then join the fight.
3. Refunds anywhere. There is no reason for me not to bail on the tank and go fight inside.


Now, maybe #1 is what they actually want, and they want an incentive for people to stick with their chosen role for a while. But its definitely not an incentive to get out of the tank and go fight inside.

[TerminatorUK]

Surely after it'd taken a couple of 150mm rounds in the side the warranty would be void and you wouldn't get a refund?

[Rocknoise]

A purshase is a purshase people will have to learn to buy their thing properly !


Point! But, the one who LEARN from it are mostly the others ... those guys in online games who ruin the others game with such things like "not thinking'", are mostly not the ones careing about their team.

On countrary, those are the guys starting to flame and teamkill when they realize they gonna lose. They dont think that it may be their own fault. Its always the same, even ps2 wont change those guys. Especially not when its free2play, but thats another construction yard.

[DOUBLEXBAUGH]

No refunds! Vehicles are the resource sink since they cost everytime you pull one, while weapon sidegrades are a 1 time cost to buy and then free to pull whenever.

Ok maybe a refund for a vehicle deconed within 20 seconds cause of a misclick (though they said atm there is no decon button like there was in PS1).