Empire jumping, spying and cloakers.

[Snipefrag]

Hi All,

I've got a couple of points to raise in this thread, first of all is to voice a concern that's been growing in my mind. I thought it would be a good idea to throw it out into the community and see if its shared, if the devs have put thought into tackling it and to see if the community can come up with some ideas to combat it. The second part is a gameplay mechanic which I think would add an exciting and (up to now) unexplored new angle to PS2.

First of all I am slightly concerned about the mission system as it stands, its a great concept.. Incentivising team work and giving commander the tools to direct the flow of battle, it will surely provide a enjoyable meta game. But as things stand I can see 'spying' being a big problem, with the game being free to play there is absolutely nothing stopping people (especially commanders) having two instances of the game open and then directly countering missions that might have been set by the opposition. Imagine if in the second world war all alliance and axis strategy was broadcast directly to the opposition.. There's a good chance it would still be going on today. Obviously there are things commanders can do to try and combat this like in the original game.. Such as withholding target information for as long as possible, but I still think this will have a negative effect on gameplay.

So what can be done about it? I really don't know, you cant lock people down to 1 connection per i.p. for obvious reasons. You can limit it to one instance of the game per PC.. but I doubt people will double box PS. Any ideas?

The gameplay mechanic that I think might have some legs is the ability for infiltrators who have dedicated a lot of time into cloaky infil related activities getting the ability to hack out Intel about the opposite faction.. Such as what missions are currently on that continent, current enemy locations as an overlay, all of which can be shared with the entire faction via an Intel overlay on the map. It would have to be hard to achieve to get data like this, maybe even involve some sort of hacking minigame like Deux ex in the oppositions main control room/CC. Obviously if someone can just log onto a second account and find out this information easily then there is no point in even considering putting development effort into this.

[Garem]

I play a different game where a FAR less significant boost is gained at a MUCH higher price for multiaccounting. People do it. It's impossible to stop, and there are lots of grey areas.

If people go through the trouble of spying for this nominal amount of information, so be it. Let them. The cost of fixing it would most certainly outweigh the benefit of removing it. Adding a pricetag to PS2, at this point, is out of the question. So if people will cheat, and they will, at least they can cheat equally without regard to who can spend the most money.

Hell. Why not just undermine the "spying" in the first place- let EVERYONE have access to see what missions the other sides are doing. Your infiltrator idea is a great way to go about it, adding an element of action to it if just plainly offering the information isn't a good enough way to go about it.

[Rbstr]

I continue to fail to see why spying is such a big deal. People pay money to do it in EVE and others. Plus the game is so transient anyway.

The important empire-switching issue is that people will be more free to jump ship and join the "winning team" without some kind of disincentive.

[onwee]

Spying will happen no matter what systems they implement. People want a competitive edge, just like wars in real life. Many people will spend real money and take months planting themselves into other outfits.

The best thing you can do is hold down the trigger and spin in circles, killing everybody.

[EVILPIG]

Good outfits do not fear spies.

[Bromaxulon]

I agree with most of the replies here. Sure people would Spy to gain an advantage, but good luck trying to get the rest of your empire to act on that info. From what I have experienced in ps1, trying to coordinate your side with multiple outfits and soloers is akin to having an argument with a brick wall. You can yell at it all day and it still won't move.

Everyone's got their own agenda so even the info that spying will provide wont really do all that much.

[Bittermen]

This is only the 40th thread on this subject.


Also spies should never be feared but to be unwary is just naive.

[Ailos]

Just another element in the game. I highly doubt this will ever cause a major turn in the battle (other than in the sense that perhaps some of the blackops attempts may be thwarted), but the reality is that this can be combatted simply by practicing good command structure and ope-sec, both of which are two things that will set apart the true special forces outfits from the rest. If your commander is the only one that knows where we're going and you're not told until the last minute, your enemy will always be one step behind, with or without spies.

[headcrab13]

I personally think spying and various forms of intel gathering will be an interesting part of the game. You'll have spies from each empire, and each will know a fraction of the others' plans. This will in no way break the game, rather it should naturally balance itself out.

Also keep in mind that the mission system is just a piece of the puzzle. You'll also have massive outfits working in secret and completing their own internal objectives. It will be very difficult to spy on what they're doing, and they'll react on the fly to compromised information.

[Immigrant]

Yes spying will be present, however there will be counterintelligence also so Empire being spied on could actually use it to it's own advantage, it's all the part of a game. Example: Highest ranking officers from couple of stronger TR outfits could set up a secret operation using only their elite and most loyal/battle proven members.Meanwhile other lower ranking soldiers from genpop will get completely other set of objectives in order to deceive both the enemy and possible spies within your empire. If someone actually goes to such a length to rise up that high in your Empire simply to spy then I would have to say nicely played and bow to them.

[SgtMAD]

Gathering intel is an important part of warfare so I just plan on having spies running around,it happened in PS1 and it will happen in PS2,learn to deal with it.

[FINALCUT]

It adds an edge of realism to the game imo. Just like real life warfare. Thats why good outfits use OPSEC. I am still undecided about what outfit I will join but joining and outfit seems like almost a neccesity due to things like spying. I am leaning towards the Devil dogs,they seem to have thier shit together.

[NCLynx]

Most of the time in the original spying lead to more EXP for the people who got spied on.

(Most of the time, there were definitely times when spy would definitely stop a plan or two but not often.)

[Marinealver]

As long as you have more charachters per account you will have jumping. Too bad you cant just view names by station name instead of gameplay name.

Also the only way for a player to switch sides is to well make an alt charachter. Lets just say you play NC and got tired of those noobs (jk) and join the VS, well you will have to start over as a new charachter.

Unless they add some sort of surrender/deffection type mechanic there won't be anything done.However it would be interesting to say type G on an enemy charachter to get an option or 3, Demand Surrender, Offer Surrender, Add to Nemesis list.

[Snipefrag]

So following the logic in this thread the devs shouldnt even bother limiting accounts to 1 faction per server like it used to be back in the good old days. If they are going to make no effort to try and curb spying/empire hopping then why bother? There is no point putting a swap delay in like the current solution either since you can just jump on another account.

This will surely increase the fourth empire effect making people switch factions on a whim when they are getting well beaten; which i think most people will agree (even if you arnt bothered about spying) will be detrimental to gameplay. It will also cause massive population swings whenever a certain weapon gets buffed or nerfed and people feel its over powered. We had this with the lasher in the original, even with the swapping rules.

If we factor in resources into the equation then this could make it even worse, if one faction is steam rolling everyone else then people may just flip over to soak up the resources during the good times..... Better that than having to pay station cash for their items.

No.... still not convinced theres no problem here.

[Bluecewe]

I doubt SOE will have trouble restricting users to one instance of the client per user.

[stordito]

two instances on the same pc?
it will be a miracle if i manage to run one on my old rig :D

[Lonehunter]

There have been in fact many discussions on this but maybe not threads.

Free to Play has nothing to do with it. Even with PS's $15 sub there where people who paid $30 a month just for this reason. Plus this is just an old tactic, most of PS's life they've allowed empire swapping.

And really any game that has more then 1 side has the potential for this kind of abuse. You deal with it with Customer Support

[Purple]

the way i see it is if someone looks and sees a force go off a mission then makes one to counteract that mission for their faction then fun will be had by all because they just created an epic battle. and the bigger the battle the more resources the winning side gets, which is usually the NC.

[RawketLawnchair]

Spy problems? In need of some assistance?

Call in the P-TEAM!
http://i49.tinypic.com/2ptpi00.png

[Xyntech]

Spy problems? In need of some assistance?

Call in the P-TEAM!

My mind is immediately filled with A-Team music, as a Sunderer in TR colors comes crashing through a barricade.

[Papscal]

Spying will always be in play. Anyone can have 2 accounts and computers, or duel box etc. And along with programs like TS and Ventrilo countering it be challenging at best. Its not new and its not going anywhere any time soon.

[Snipefrag]

I'm more worried about empire jumping really, with no real restrictions on swapping faction i can see populations bouncing around based on what faction is earning the most resources.. Or what empire has the best weapons.