Possible problem with Magrider main gun

[WorldOfForms]

So is it right that the main gun, the pilot's one, is mounted on the magrider's front?

If so, the tank is going to need to maneuver in a very different fashion from how it did in PS1. Any mag pilot will tell you: that front gun was almost impossible to aim because of the momentum of the tank during pivoting.

I don't see how this gun will be remotely viable unless all momentum on tank rotation is removed. Then there's a secondary effect (which could be awesome): it would make the magrider insanely agile with precision steering.

[EVILPIG]

So is it right that the main gun, the pilot's one, is mounted on the magrider's front?

If so, the tank is going to need to maneuver in a very different fashion from how it did in PS1. Any mag pilot will tell you: that front gun was almost impossible to aim because of the momentum of the tank during pivoting.

I don't see how this gun will be remotely viable unless all momentum on tank rotation is removed. Then there's a secondary effect (which could be awesome): it would make the magrider insanely agile with precision steering.

Essentially, the Magrider is a floating turret. If the floaty response of turning is tighter, it's just as effective. If that is not good enough, they could give it a little play, like a 15 degree arc that the gun can move side to side on rapidly while the rest of the tank responds to any leaning in that direction.

Either way, nothing says that all three empires have to work the same. Variety - balance.

[RawketLawnchair]

Variety - balance.

If there is anything I'd say, its this.

Also, whats bad about it being different from PS1?

[Shogun]

the tanks have changed very much from ps1 to ps2.
there has been some discussions about possible balancing issues, but since we know a shit about how the new tanks will play out, these discussions have died.
diversity rules. we will see how it balances when beta starts.

[WorldOfForms]

I didn't mean that it's bad to be different from PS1. I just mean that having a fixed main gun on a rotating tank, as opposed to a turret, presents unique balancing challenges.

Of course variety is good. I'm just really curious how the magrider handles, because there's no way it could have the same turning mechanics as PS1.

[ringring]

I didn't mean that it's bad to be different from PS1. I just mean that having a fixed main gun on a rotating tank, as opposed to a turret, presents unique balancing challenges.

Of course variety is good. I'm just really curious how the magrider handles, because there's no way it could have the same turning mechanics as PS1.

The driver gun on the mag was very easy to aim. Far easier than the lightning, which is the other gun in the turret option.

Stop complaining, you got the best of it! Same as in PS1

[WorldOfForms]

What was difficult about aiming the lightning? It aimed like any other gun.

[Talek Krell]

What was difficult about aiming the lightning? It aimed like any other gun.+1 to having this answered. I mean it was point and shoot, how much trouble could you have with it?

[Xyntech]

Essentially the problem with the Magriders PPA in the first game was that the Magrider turned like a whale, just like all of the other tanks. Meanwhile, you could aim the PPA up and down relatively quickly.

In most games, you can either rotate left/right at the same speed as up/down, or rotating up/down is actually slower than the horizontal rotation.

So not only did the Magrider not aim sideways at a fast enough speed to be viable in a lot of combat situations, but the ratio of vertical to horizontal rotation speed actually made it more difficult than it had to be.

The only way to make this work is to balance the rotation of the new Magrider in the same way that the rotation of the turrets are balanced on the other tanks.

This really isn't that difficult and shouldn't be too hard to balance either.

The main problem with the Magrider is that it hovers, which requires that you be able to strafe with the a,d keys instead of turning your tank with them. I'm not sure what ringring means about the lightning being harder, it was very easy and will be pretty much the way the new Lightning and the default MBT's will control. They don't hover so there is no issue, because you can use w,a,s,d to drive and turn the tank, while using the mouse to rotate and fire the turret.

[Zenben]

Wasn't there some talk about applying inertia to the Magrider's movement? In PS1, if you turned while moving forward without pressing W, you would change the direction of travel. I thought they were considering making it move in a straight line after you turned unless you applied the gas, so you could kind of strafe by a target at full forward speed instead of using the strafing speed. I think this would be an awesome compromise to not having a turret for the main gun. This would also make it REALLY fun to drive, I think.

[ringring]

What was difficult about aiming the lightning? It aimed like any other gun.

Firstly I apologies about my somewhat intemperate remark.

However, the magrider cofiguration in ps1 was excellent. The PPa wasn't difficult to aim due the the floating ability of the magrider and that is can strafe.

It's dps wasn't bad either, at least not as bad as often made out.

Driver the mag was the funnest experience of all the tanks. I've driven it a lot over the past what, nearly a couple of years, granted not as much as the Prowler.

It is because the gun is in the hull plus the fact that the mag floats and strafes that makes it so good, that is, if the driver is also a gunner.

What the PS2 mag needs (and the ps2 prowler and vannie need the same) is to have the driver gun as the lower powered gun and make the gunner the death dealing dps.

At this stage I doubt greatly that the devs will make a big configuration change. I'd much prefer them to spend their time finishing the maxes, adding sidegrades and weapon add-ons, finishing the 3 conts and working on a 4th.


Peace

[Rabb]

just make it work like the hover tank in bf2142 job done.

[CutterJohn]

What was difficult about aiming the lightning? It aimed like any other gun.

Mainly just doing it at full speed, i.e. driving and gunning at the same time.

just make it work like the hover tank in bf2142 job done.

Nah, the hover tanks in Battlezone1/2. :D


But the 2142 tank was good too.



Alternately, I like the idea about a limited forward firing arc. This would abate a great many issues and give you some fine control in a limited range without having to rotate the entire tank.

Best example I can think of for this, even though its not a tank game, is the Freelancer method of aiming/ship control.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=PUcMsPt68Ws#t=47s

The aim is at the cursor, and the ship follows the cursor. Works very well.



http://www.planetside-universe.com/media/album/mp52rz6sp6/20120203_4f2cb47998f31.jpg

Could actually work that way already.. The end of the turret is a ball, not a hinge..

[BorisBlade]

Either way, nothing says that all three empires have to work the same. Variety - balance.

Unless im reading that wrong, he's not talking about variety in the least, he's talkin about a problem in ps1 that made the PPA in ps1 (which is mounted the same as the main cannon in ps2) so terrible to aim with many people didnt even use it and when ya did you had a hard time aiming it. If the drift problem was still there, i for one would not even try to gun the main cannon. This is not variety, it has nothing to do with it, this a basic functionality problem.

Having said that, unless they are slow in the head, i dont see them leaving such a glaring issue in the game. At very least we would give em shit all day in beta til it got changed so it should be ok in the end. Really just another reason to give em a freakin turret. Gotta do it for the dedicated driver cert anyway.

Btw calling the drift problem variety is like pitting two snipers against each other and having one stand on a merry-go-round as you spin it and calling that variety in gameplay.

[ringring]

Unless im reading that wrong, he's not talking about variety in the least, he's talkin about a problem in ps1 that made the PPA in ps1 (which is mounted the same as the main cannon in ps2) so terrible to aim with many people didnt even use it and when ya did you had a hard time aiming it. If the drift problem was still there, i for one would not even try to gun the main cannon. This is not variety, it has nothing to do with it, this a basic functionality problem.

Having said that, unless they are slow in the head, i dont see them leaving such a glaring issue in the game. At very least we would give em shit all day in beta til it got changed so it should be ok in the end. Really just another reason to give em a freakin turret. Gotta do it for the dedicated driver cert anyway.

Btw calling the drift problem variety is like pitting two snipers against each other and having one stand on a merry-go-round as you spin it and calling that variety in gameplay.

sometimes I think vs are their own worst enemies.... the lasher debale comes to mind......

It's fine!

[Erendil]

sometimes I think vs are their own worst enemies.... the lasher debale comes to mind......

It's fine!

The "Lasher debaucle" was mainly the result of the difficulties in balancing a weapon with a basic balance flaw inherent to its design: that it was an HA weapon with SA properties (the lash). That and the later Devs' insistence on overbuffing/nerfing its capabilities in line with what they thought it needed and not what the vast majority of VS themselves actually asked for, and with no thought made towards simply fixing the AP bug it had picked up.

Any added turmoil thrown in by the playerbase was equally the result of cries from all three empires throughout its life, not just the VS. To think otherwise is simply ignorant.

:rant:

On topic, it's hard to say whether or not the fixed cannon is going to be a problem until we actually see more of the Mag in action. The few fleeting glimpses we saw in the GDC footage tells us very little of its capabilities.

If they give it the maneuverability it needs to effectively use the main cannon it'll probably be hella fun to drive!

[Xyntech]

If they give it the maneuverability it needs to effectively use the main cannon it'll probably be hella fun to drive!

Could be fun enough that I'd consider driving it solo, or with a regular gunner turret (not a dedicated gunner cert) sometimes. Something I would probably rarely consider with the driver controlled gun versions of the Prowler or Vanguard.

Who am I kidding though. I drive Magriders to run people over, not shoot at things. Oh and so my gunner can shoot at things, yeah... ;)

[Virulence]

I'm most curious to see how the Magrider is going to play considering all of the MBTs are going to have directional armor. The fixed-mount design, coupled with the way the Magrider itself works, will make it very easy to take advantage of presumably heavier front armor (and front armor customization) than it will be in other tanks.

[Sabot]

If I understand this correctly... in PS2 the main turret controlled by a gunner in PS1 is now controlled by the driver, in same fashion the AI gun on the mag was controlled in PS1?

If that be the case, and it is indeed the way the devs want the mag to roll, I'd say they have to be more maneuverable than in PS1, but with less defensive capabilities. And perhaps, seeing as the prowler and vanny fire projectiles, and the mag fires something I assume is raw energy, perhaps they more or less "ignore" the fact that front armor is thicker (and that rear armor is thiner) than the other tanks. Making it a tank that is more suited at flanking enemy tanks than taking them on head on. It wont make them overly OP in cases where you roll up on something from behind, but very good at what they're supposed to do... i.e flanking.

I don't know... but it seems like a way to add diversity and not just mirror each faction with a few small differences.

[Xyntech]

I'm most curious to see how the Magrider is going to play considering all of the MBTs are going to have directional armor. The fixed-mount design, coupled with the way the Magrider itself works, will make it very easy to take advantage of presumably heavier front armor (and front armor customization) than it will be in other tanks.

For one thing, the Magrider will have the weakest armor, and for another, it will no longer be the fastest of the 3 tanks. It will have to use its maneuverability to maximum effect.

It will be excellent at always showing its best armor to the target it is shooting, but this will also be offset by the fact that Planetside is a large, open battlefield, where another enemy may be coming up from your side your rear.

Presumably the Prowler will still have the highest DPS, and the Vanguard will have the highest burst damage, so I think it is safe to assume that, up close, shot for shot, the Magrider will not only have the weakest armor, but also the lowest damage per second.

So maneuverability and having a more accurate main gun will presumably be essential tools for helping the Magrider compete, especially now that the Prowler can potentially run it down.

I don't think that completely removing directional armor is the right solution, but I wouldn't mind seeing most of the Magriders weaker armor being attributable to weaker forward and side armor, meaning that while it still had a weak spot in back, that spot was no weaker than the backs of the other two MBTs.

Lots of little stats and attributes will be available to tweak though, so whatever ends up being balanced. Hard to work out the exact real world ramifications on a spread sheet for something this complex and dynamic.