Magrider Main Cannon...

[KTNApollo]

has pivot. Atleast up and down. If you look closely, right after Higby gets run over the Magrider's main cannon pivots up a little bit. Haven't seen anyone post this information yet. If there is vertical pivot, perhaps there will be some horizontal pivot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=ohxc5flxhP0#t=562s

[Coreldan]

Not surprised. If it had no leeway whatsoever, it would most likely suck hard.

The original Planetside had this too for several weapons on vehicles.

[Xyntech]

I think most people assumed it would have vertical pivot. It needs to be able to aim upwards, and it would look kind of odd to have the entire Magrider tilt upwards.

As for side to side, it is as you say, it would be easy to add if it can already pivot up and down. The only real question is whether it will be needed or not. My assumption is that the turning speed and responsiveness of the Magrider will be great enough that it feels like rotating a turret without needing any additional horizontal pivoting of the gun itself.

Combine that with the potential that the Forgelight physics engine may allow the Magrider to continue drifting in it's original direction of travel after having turned to the side, and it should be a pretty flawless and intuitive interface.

But on the other hand, if a small amount of horizontal pivoting proves to be needed, it's nice to know it probably wouldn't be hard to add.

Beta beta beta. Until then, the devs know more than we do.

[basti]

Asked about vertical pivot ages ago, it has not.
Means, the gun behaves just as in planetside.

[Lonehunter]

Asked about vertical pivot ages ago, it has not.
Means, the gun behaves just as in planetside.
Did you mean to replace vertical with horizontal?

I thought PS1's Magrider only had vertical pivot in the main gun, and to look left/right you basically had to strafe/turn the tank. This is how I'd like to see it return. This is the tradeoff for getting a tank that can strafe : /

To be clear no vertical pivot would mean the tank would need to place it's self on a hill to aim up/down, and that just sounds ridiculous.

[Baneblade]

I think most potential Mag drivers are overlooking that the entire tank is the turret.

[Vash02]

I think most potential Mag drivers are overlooking that the entire tank is the turret.

If it's able to do it's maximum speed in any direction (forward, side, side, reverse) then fine. Otherwise VS got screwed.

[SniperSteve]

I think most potential Mag drivers are overlooking that the entire tank is the turret.

Agree. The turning rate of the entire tank is likely to be the same as the turning rate for the other empire tank turrets.

[Reginald]

The whole tank pivoting is not the only issue, since the main cannon is a fixed forward weapon it means a magrider can only attack with its best weapon when it is pointed directly at the enemy. Unless it can strafe and reverse at top speed then it will be at a significant disadvantage should it have to retreat. Both the prowler and the vanguard will be able to retreat or travel at maximum velocity in any direction relative to the target while still engaging the enemy with their primary weapon.

IMO giving the magrider the ability to strafe and reverse at maximum speed would be clunky and probably look weird. I would rather have its primary weapons on a turret.

[basti]

Did you mean to replace vertical with horizontal?

I thought PS1's Magrider only had vertical pivot in the main gun, and to look left/right you basically had to strafe/turn the tank. This is how I'd like to see it return. This is the tradeoff for getting a tank that can strafe : /

To be clear no vertical pivot would mean the tank would need to place it's self on a hill to aim up/down, and that just sounds ridiculous.

It has vertical, it does not have horizontal.
I screwed up. :-D

[Baneblade]

The whole tank pivoting is not the only issue, since the main cannon is a fixed forward weapon it means a magrider can only attack with its best weapon when it is pointed directly at the enemy. Unless it can strafe and reverse at top speed then it will be at a significant disadvantage should it have to retreat. Both the prowler and the vanguard will be able to retreat or travel at maximum velocity in any direction relative to the target while still engaging the enemy with their primary weapon.

IMO giving the magrider the ability to strafe and reverse at maximum speed would be clunky and probably look weird. I would rather have its primary weapons on a turret.

Yeah, well I apologize in advance for shedding no tears over it. I mean, your tank floats. Pros and Cons Bro.

[RawketLawnchair]

Yeah, well I apologize in advance for shedding no tears over it. I mean, your tank floats. Pros and Cons Bro.

Pretty much. NC tanks are slow, with treads... but are powerful.
Hovertanks have much more maneuverability.
Seems fair to me in comparison.

[Shlomoshun]

From the design it's clear that it's going to be just like PS1, which was quite easy to use and worked great...

[basti]

From the design it's clear that it's going to be just like PS1, which was quite easy to use and worked great...

Worked great?

You never drove a Magrider it seems.


As a Mag driver myself, who talked with the whole crew of other awesome mag drivers (like myself), let me tell you this: The Driver cannon was the whorst that could happen to the Mag. It was simply shit.
Not because it did as much damage as throwing rocks, but because it took your focus away from driving. Trying to use this thing to do damage was the best way to kill yourself. In fact, every single Mag guide, and every single good mag driver, said the same: The Magrider does not have a gun for the driver. Its just a flashlight, nothing else. Do not attempt to use it, because all it will do is reveal your position. It wont kill a thing, it wont do any good, it just makes you die faster. Instead of using it, focus on driving, and let your gunner take care of the kills. This way you stay alive much longer.

Now, heres the thing: Poor NC and TR wont have our luck. Us Mag guys are used to our gun, and we know how to use it. NC and TR? They are screw completly. Not just that they have the massive issue of a rotating turrent, no, they even have no training in using it. Those things will be coffins, nothing else.

I can only hope for them that they get the abiliy to let a dedicated gunner take those guns, so the drivers can focus on driving. Otherwise the game will be rather one sided.
And if they get the option to let a gunner hop in, then you will easily see the good guy, and the bad guys. The good guys are those that drive around while both their guns fire at you. The bad guys are those who drive into trees, rotate their main gun forward to see whats going on, drive back, rotate their man gun again to find you again (and start shooting again), drive into another tree, and blow up. And while those guys are stuck in trees, i will laugh in my Mag.

[Erendil]

Yeah, well I apologize in advance for shedding no tears over it. I mean, your tank floats. Pros and Cons Bro.

Yes, because in all of the footage and pics that have been released so far, we've seen tons of water everywhere for the Mag to take advantage of.


Oh wait. No we haven't. :rolleyes:


Pretty much. NC tanks are slow, with treads... but are powerful.
Hovertanks have much more maneuverability.
Seems fair to me in comparison.

As others have said, it might work out to be fair if:

It can rotate in place as fast as the other MBT's can rotate their turret, and
it has the same top speed when strafing left/right and going in reverse as it does moving forward, and
the game's Physics allow the Mag to conserve its momentum so it can keep moving in one direction while it rotates to deal with threats to either side or behind it, and
the Mag's acceleration is fast enough to allow it to change directions as fast as a treaded MBT. Preferrably faster since it's supposed to be the most maneuverable MBT.


If all of the above conditions aren't met, then the Mag will be at a big disadvantage when attempting to engage opponents from any direction but right in front of it. And the larger the battle, the greater the frequency of having opponents attacking you from the flanks or from behind.

Maneuverability won't mean shit if you can't turn to deal with flanking or rear attackers as quickly as a turreted tank can.

[NCLynx]

Yes, because in all of the footage and pics that have been released so far, we've seen tons of water everywhere for the Mag to take advantage of.


Oh wait. No we haven't. :rolleyes:

Going over water isn't the only thing floating helps the magrider do. It floating instead of being on treads is what gives it its maneuverability (One of the main things VS vehicles focused on rather than speed or power IIRC)

NC - Slow and Hard Hitting
TR - Less powerful but incredibly fast (So I guess the prowler *should* end up being the fastest tank if it were a straight shot no-turn race)
VS - Accurate and Maneuverable (Which is exactly what it likely will be)

There's no doubt in my mind the gun on the Magrider will be the most accurate, but if the person using it has the precision of a 2 year I can see why you guys would complain.

[deltase]

This tank is like the Bf2142 russan tank and it had no horizontal movement but had vertical. And against the standard tank it was better because of the maneuverability and it was my favorite from all tanks, in all games i have ever played. The lack of horizontal movement is nothing to be afraid, though in the scale of PS2 i think it will be quite tricky to play it and will take a lot of training to do better than the others.

[Erendil]

Going over water isn't the only thing floating helps the magrider do. It floating instead of being on treads is what gives it its maneuverability (One of the main things VS vehicles focused on rather than speed or power IIRC)

NC - Slow and Hard Hitting
TR - Less powerful but incredibly fast (So I guess the prowler *should* end up being the fastest tank if it were a straight shot no-turn race)
VS - Accurate and Maneuverable (Which is exactly what it likely will be)

There's no doubt in my mind the gun on the Magrider will be the most accurate, but if the person using it has the precision of a 2 year I can see why you guys would complain.

"Floating" usually refers to sitting on top of a liquid surface, which is what I thought he meant and is why I gave the response I did.

But you're right, hovering combined with strafing is what gives the Mag much of its maneuverability advantage. But it can also make it less maneuverable in some instances as well. Try coming to a stop before plowing through a minefield w/ PS1's Mag, for example. ;)

And like I said in my previous post, if the 4 conditions I listed aren't met then it runs the risk of losing much of its combat effectiveness since not meeting them causes the Mag to lose it maneuverability advantage. It's not a complaint, but the Devs do need to be mindful of these issues if the Mag is going to remain competitive.

[Baneblade]

Worked great?

You never drove a Magrider it seems.


As a Mag driver myself, who talked with the whole crew of other awesome mag drivers (like myself), let me tell you this: The Driver cannon was the whorst that could happen to the Mag. It was simply shit.
Not because it did as much damage as throwing rocks, but because it took your focus away from driving. Trying to use this thing to do damage was the best way to kill yourself. In fact, every single Mag guide, and every single good mag driver, said the same: The Magrider does not have a gun for the driver. Its just a flashlight, nothing else. Do not attempt to use it, because all it will do is reveal your position. It wont kill a thing, it wont do any good, it just makes you die faster. Instead of using it, focus on driving, and let your gunner take care of the kills. This way you stay alive much longer.

Now, heres the thing: Poor NC and TR wont have our luck. Us Mag guys are used to our gun, and we know how to use it. NC and TR? They are screw completly. Not just that they have the massive issue of a rotating turrent, no, they even have no training in using it. Those things will be coffins, nothing else.

I can only hope for them that they get the abiliy to let a dedicated gunner take those guns, so the drivers can focus on driving. Otherwise the game will be rather one sided.
And if they get the option to let a gunner hop in, then you will easily see the good guy, and the bad guys. The good guys are those that drive around while both their guns fire at you. The bad guys are those who drive into trees, rotate their main gun forward to see whats going on, drive back, rotate their man gun again to find you again (and start shooting again), drive into another tree, and blow up. And while those guys are stuck in trees, i will laugh in my Mag.

I dunno, every time I drove a stolen Mag it survived for both the driver and the gunner to run out of ammo. And I wasn't skint on using the driver gun either.

[Baneblade]

Try coming to a stop before plowing through a minefield w/ PS1's Mag, for example. ;)

The mistake is trying to stop and not just changing direction.

[Sledgecrushr]

These magriders shouldnt be able to go up hills, unless of course you get a good run at it and if inertia doesnt take you over the top then you should just slide back to the bottom.

[CutterJohn]

Not surprised. If it had no leeway whatsoever, it would most likely suck hard.

The original Planetside had this too for several weapons on vehicles.

Nah. The battlezone hovertanks were 100% locked forward firing. Whole tank tilted. Worked fine, but then those were extremely maneuverable too.

[Xyntech]

As others have said, it might work out to be fair if:

It can rotate in place as fast as the other MBT's can rotate their turret, and
it has the same top speed when strafing left/right and going in reverse as it does moving forward, and
the game's Physics allow the Mag to conserve its momentum so it can keep moving in one direction while it rotates to deal with threats to either side or behind it, and
the Mag's acceleration is fast enough to allow it to change directions as fast as a treaded MBT. Preferrably faster since it's supposed to be the most maneuverable MBT.


This, for the most part.

Fortunately, with Forgelight being as robust as it seems to be, and with the devs seeming to indicate that certain things won't be quite as locked in and unchangeable as in the first game, I have high hopes that if any of these things are lacking in the Magrider come beta, they will be easily changeable.

It would be the best kind of buffs too. Not upping the Magriders damage output or armor, just tweaking some of its performance.

While I would prefer to drive and gun in the proposed dedicated gunner variant of the Magrider, I really have little doubt that the base Magrider will be viable and well balanced. If I'm wrong, the dev team will have at least a 3rd of the beta testers yelling at them night and day until it is fixed.

In my mind, if the devs are hell bent on driver controlled main guns being the default MBT variant, the fixed gun Magrider is the only viable solution. My only major hope is that the devs follow through and give us the option of dedicated gunner certs so that we can drive and gun these tanks the way they are supposed to be driven and gunned in a game of this scope and magnitude.

[Ceska]

This, for the most part.
While I would prefer to drive and gun in the proposed dedicated gunner variant of the Magrider, I really have little doubt that the base Magrider will be viable and well balanced. If I'm wrong, the dev team will have at least a 3rd of the beta testers yelling at them night and day until it is fixed.


/taunt ON/

It's about VS stuff; there will be yelling and crying

/taunt OFF/
;)

[Toppopia]

The developers say that all weapons have their own damage values and multipliers so we could assume that vehicles are the same, so if 1 vehicle is over powered or unbalanced, just lower its stats or increase them depending on the situation.

[Stew]

The magrider can strafe left and rigth NO need for the canon to moove left and rigth and it will moove up and down !

And forget thats for all people who ask the MAGrider to have a Tanks like rotative canon it will broke the entire concept of the mag rider

If it can have a regular rotative main canon so the abilities to strafe left and rigth will have to be remmove as well to balance the whole thing !

So the entire concept of this Vs specific will be broke !

Is thats whats u want vs guys ?

[Mezorin]

Worked great?

You never drove a Magrider it seems.

...

Now, heres the thing: Poor NC and TR wont have our luck. Us Mag guys are used to our gun, and we know how to use it. NC and TR? They are screw completly. Not just that they have the massive issue of a rotating turrent, no, they even have no training in using it. Those things will be coffins, nothing else.

I can only hope for them that they get the abiliy to let a dedicated gunner take those guns, so the drivers can focus on driving. Otherwise the game will be rather one sided.

And if they get the option to let a gunner hop in, then you will easily see the good guy, and the bad guys. The good guys are those that drive around while both their guns fire at you. The bad guys are those who drive into trees, rotate their main gun forward to see whats going on, drive back, rotate their man gun again to find you again (and start shooting again), drive into another tree, and blow up. And while those guys are stuck in trees, i will laugh in my Mag.

Ever drive lightning in PS1 and fight other lightnings? It was very easy to tell in 1 on 1 battles who the better driver was, as the good drivers knew their space and would never stop moving while shooting, while the bad ones could either shoot or move, but never both (unless they want to crash into a tree). That independent turret addition to the Lightning was the best thing the devs ever did for us, but they also gave us enough rope to hang ourselves with if we were stupid.

Here's the thing: the ability to control your own vehicle and gun is a double edged sword. When you control both the movement and orientation of your vehicle's main gun, you can set your turret down shots up perfectly and know where you need to move in order to aim. You also have the advantage of being able to pan around your tank quickly to see potential threats (ie sneaky AV users), and therefore are not as blind as the forward facing drivers are. The draw back is that if you have poor space awareness you will crash into things and, especially in a Lightning, this is a death sentence.

Overall, I like the idea that who gets the main gun will be a choice, so that if you have a good outfit mate gunner/engineer he can run the main cannon while you focus on driving, but you're not held hostage to having to find a random zergling to use the main cannon if you are running a solo/PUG MBT. It also means that the players who get good at running armor will actually see the fruits of their labor in a high kill count, rather than just giving other people all the benefits.

[Xyntech]

It will also mean that those who are skilled in driving and gunning their own tank will either have the option of an extra gunner controlling an AI or AA turret, or will have that option without requiring a third person in the vehicle (depending on how the devs choose to balance having a dedicated gunner variant).

I dare say that as much as a lot of vets assume that every PS1 player would take the dedicated gunner variant and every CoD/BF transplant will use a driver controlled gun, what will actually end up happening is that most players will eventually start using both variants, at least part time.

Of course, if done right, hopefully the dedicated gunner variant will also have a more powerful main gun than the regular driver controlled main gun. I think that is essential to balance and will be an important factor in the (in my opinion superior) dedicated gunner variant being widely used.

[Baneblade]

You don't need to put in any handicaps to solo tankers... being solo is handicap enough.

[Raymac]

It's cute that we are already getting "buff the VS" threads.

[WorldOfForms]

Actually, if the mag can drive backwards at full speed, it will have a huge advantage - probably too much of one.

Don't forget, the devs have said that tanks have a weak spot in the rear. So now imagine a vanguard chasing a retreating mag that can face it with full armor, then imagine what happens when a mag chases a retreating vanguard.

So it's delicate to balance - slow reverse on the mag makes it weak tank vs tank, while too fast reverse and it's overpowered. I think its reverse should be close to forward speed, but not quite. Maybe 80-90% of forward speed, and then adjust as needed during beta.

[KrazeyVIII]

if:

It can rotate in place as fast as the other MBT's can rotate their turret, and
it has the same top speed when strafing left/right and going in reverse as it does moving forward, and
the game's Physics allow the Mag to conserve its momentum so it can keep moving in one direction while it rotates to deal with threats to either side or behind it, and
the Mag's acceleration is fast enough to allow it to change directions as fast as a treaded MBT. Preferrably faster since it's supposed to be the most maneuverable MBT.


Laughed.

The only thing in this list that should be put into the game is for the tank to keep its momentum. Everything else listed would flat out break the vehicle for balance.

The Mag was my favorite tank in PS1 and already looks to be my favorite in PS2. It was incredibly easy to dip in and out of fights to deal damage while receiving very little back. The gunner turret made life very easy to aim and deal consistent damage and the driver turret allowed you to do high amounts of DPS as you charge in. If momentum was added then you could continue to DPS as you charged through enemy lines shooting backwards.

All I see in this thread is a bunch of unwarranted QQ. The Magrider will be a feared tank as it always was, you just can't play it like it's a Vanguard or Prowler.

[Sirisian]

All I see in this thread is a bunch of unwarranted QQ. The Magrider will be a feared tank as it always was, you just can't play it like it's a Vanguard or Prowler.
I really feel this last point is what's going to make it unbalanceable. We saw in Planetside 1 how hard it was for the developers to balance a weapons/vehicles that played totally opposite to other factions. The Magrider will probably end up that way; gimped in certain situations and overpowered in others. Would prefer just a balanced Magrider (http://www.planetside-universe.com/showthread.php?p=657668#post657668).

[Xyntech]

It's cute that we are already getting "buff the VS" threads.

Aaaand it didn't take long for it to start turning into a "nerf the VS" thread either.

Considering we don't actually know what stats and performance the current Magrider actually has, any talk of the sky falling if it's this way or that is pretty meaningless.

I'm more optimistic than Sirisian that a balance will be struck, but whether it's overpowered and deserves a nerf or is underpowered and deserves a buff, we really just need to get our hands on them (and the other tanks) to see for ourselves in a real world situation.

[Erendil]

Laughed.

The only thing in this list that should be put into the game is for the tank to keep its momentum. Everything else listed would flat out break the vehicle for balance.

The Mag was my favorite tank in PS1 and already looks to be my favorite in PS2. It was incredibly easy to dip in and out of fights to deal damage while receiving very little back. The gunner turret made life very easy to aim and deal consistent damage and the driver turret allowed you to do high amounts of DPS as you charge in. If momentum was added then you could continue to DPS as you charged through enemy lines shooting backwards.

All I see in this thread is a bunch of unwarranted QQ. The Magrider will be a feared tank as it always was, you just can't play it like it's a Vanguard or Prowler.

I think you're forgetting the fact that all MBT's are designed to be used as solo vehicles. All else being equal, if a Mag can't rotate, strafe, and go in reverse such that it can fire and maneuver on equal terms to the other MBT's, it will be at a severe disadvantage as a solo tank anytime it has to engage opponents that aren't directly in front of it. Without my stipulated characteristics, it would be unable to do many basic tank maneuvers like high-speed side strafing attacks, jogging back and forth while firing at right angles to your movement vector, circling the enemy, firing behind him while retreating, etc.

If the main cannon wasn't given to the driver by default and instead had a dedicated gunner I'd probably be okay with it keeping its sluggish strafe/rotate/reverse speeds from PS1. As it stands tho it needs to have the abilities I mentioned or it simply won't be agile enough to hold its own in anything but a front-to-front shootout. And that completely flies in the face of the VS's maneuverability philosophy.

[Virulence]

I don't like the "driver gets the main weapon" aspect of ANY of the tanks, least of all the Magrider, and that's the biggest issue.

I think one of the biggest downsides to the Magrider's fixed weapon is having a limited field of view; it's not like you'll be able to spin your turret around and keep an eye out for things, you'll need a gunner to do that for you, which is how it should be anyway.

The primary tank configuration should be like it was in PS1 - driver drives, gunner guns with a paired primary/secondary weapon. 360 degree turret rotation, decent turret elevation. Versatile, tough, powerful, and the backbone of an Empire's ground forces - as they should be.

I don't entirely dislike the idea of a tank with a fixed-weapon mount, however, and I think it could work well as another option.

If you, say, wanted to be a badass and blow dudes up in a heavy vehicle operated by just you, you could use a loadout similar to WW2 tank destroyers - fixed turret with a limited cone of fire, heavy forward armor, much lighter side/rear armor, and no supplemental gunner. This leaves them highly vulnerable to air cavalry and being flanked at close range, and the operator would have a limited personal field of view. The downside with this is that the Mag-TD would probably be way better simply by virtue of being able to strafe, but that could be compensated for somehow, I think. I don't think the cannons on these would necessarily have to be more powerful (insofar as "does x% more damage"), than MBT weapons, either for them to be very useful - perhaps they could inherently have less shell drop or damage degradation over longer distances. You could have offensive customization options to do this, maybe give your shells better armor penetration, or other things.

It would add another armor-oriented playstyle that I think may be very appealing to some people, and it would help drive home the feeling of combined arms, large-scale warfare that really emphasizes using a variety of tactics in concert and supporting the other dudes in your army.