Question for devs, open comments solicited : Immersion

[Stardouser]

SOE, what are your plans for PS2 in the so called "immersion" area? By this I mean things like:
1. Head bounce/shoulder sway while running
2. Immersive sound that drowns out shot sounds, whether this is vehicle noises, ambient environment, explosions booming for 500m , or whatever.
3. Ground shaking/vision blurring from nearby explosions, such as tank shells hitting(nearby but far enough away that you get zero damage)
4. Also, I include suppression here, but not as a tactical mechanic, but to the extent that it is used for immersion. You really can't separate the two, yes it's a tactically usable mechanic but it can also be claimed to be an immersive aspect.
5. Slow weapon switching/sluggish aiming/etc(Again, it does have tactical repercussions but is also an immersion thing). I would also talk about sluggish and restrictive prone here except we aren't getting prone.
6. Vaulting instead of jumping(BF3 vaulting is extremely prone to fail on 6 inch objects, leaving you to be shot in the back at your enemy's leisure).
7. Any other blurring/shaking/slowing, or drowning sound that's not really necessary.


These were only examples, I'm sure we could think of 2-3 more, but basically, except for suppression, what I'm talking about here is things that are put in for immersive/realism purposes that don't actually affect tactical or strategic play in the game. Note that I am NOT referring to things like cockpit designs/cockpit forcing; I consider that a completely different issue.

Anyway, the point is, I believe that these things are OK in small doses, but at the extent that they were used in Battlefield 3, they are distractions from the true business of killing the enemy.

What say the People? Again; I included suppression but the point here is not about the tactical uses of it, but whether the sheer annoyance of it is worth the tactical uses.

Sound is of special interest, because in BF2, you could hear shot direction of snipers, but in BF3 you can't. I do not know, but I suspect that the ambient and other immersive sounds are the cause of this. It also affects hearing footsteps. I know many people don't have a problem hearing footsteps but many do. Really, is all the immersion worth it?

[JPalmer]

That sounds like a lot of stuff that is in Battlefield 3. I thought the general thought of everyone here is that stuff from BF3 is bad and casual?

[Stardouser]

That sounds like a lot of stuff that is in Battlefield 3. I thought the general thought of everyone here is that stuff from BF3 is bad and casual?

Yes, a lot of stuff from BF3 is casual(and therefore bad), but these things, at least to me, aren't part of the casual vs tactical argument. As I say, suppression does fall in as a tactical concern, but the issue here is not that, but instead, whether the annoyance of all the blurring is worth it.

And just to be clear, I am against immersion like this, so it's still bad, just for a different reason that has nothing to do with casualization. Well, let me be specific, too much immersion is bad. A little bit is OK, but if I can list that many things that are pure immersion, it's probably too much.

[Patek]

i like 1, 2, 3, and 7 :p i actually dont find all of them a problem to be honest with you, but thats just my opinion

[Vancha]

The thing is, I wouldn't call a lot of these things "immersive". I'd rank some of them alongside the infamous screen-of-jam when you get shot in other FPS games.

The same goes for a lot of screen blurring/shaking. A lot of the time they're more immersion-breaking than immersive. The problem is that they're trying to emulate effects that happen at eye-level on a screen that's nearly 2ft away or more.

[Immigrant]

I honestly don't care if most of this stuff is or isn't there. However I really hope there will vaulting over obstacles instead of jumping (except jet-packing for LA). Jumping will be exploited to "dodge" bullets and I hate hoppers, it's a lame tactic.

[BuzzCutPsycho]

Everything you listed as immersive is actually annoying. I personally hate it when I am playing a "modern" shooter and I'm not only fighting the enemy but the annoying shit the game throws at me too.

[Stardouser]

I honestly don't care if most of this stuff is or isn't there. However I really hope there will vaulting over obstacles instead of jumping (except jet-packing for LA). Jumping will be exploited to "dodge" bullets and I hate hoppers, it's a lame tactic.

It's not an exploit. People should not be expected to sit still and accept being shot.

And even BF3 still has jumping, it's vaulting if you are jumping over something.

Everything you listed as immersive is actually annoying. I personally hate it when I am playing a "modern" shooter and I'm not only fighting the enemy but the annoying shit the game throws at me too.

Agreed. But note, I did not say that I thought they were immersive, only that the game devs think they are and they put them in for that purpose.

[ArmedZealot]

SOE, what are your plans for PS2 in the so called "immersion" area? By this I mean things like:
1. Head bounce/shoulder sway while running
2. Immersive sound that drowns out shot sounds, whether this is vehicle noises, ambient environment, explosions booming for 500m , or whatever.
3. Ground shaking/vision blurring from nearby explosions, such as tank shells hitting(nearby but far enough away that you get zero damage)
4. Also, I include suppression here, but not as a tactical mechanic, but to the extent that it is used for immersion. You really can't separate the two, yes it's a tactically usable mechanic but it can also be claimed to be an immersive aspect.
5. Slow weapon switching/sluggish aiming/etc(Again, it does have tactical repercussions but is also an immersion thing). I would also talk about sluggish and restrictive prone here except we aren't getting prone.
6. Vaulting instead of jumping(BF3 vaulting is extremely prone to fail on 6 inch objects, leaving you to be shot in the back at your enemy's leisure).
7. Any other blurring/shaking/slowing, or drowning sound that's not really necessary.


I like all of these. And 5 can be tuned to fit in with nanite holstering if many don't like the weapon switch time. Although head bob can be annoying it should be subtle or have a setting to remove it.

Vaulting seems like an issue with level design rather then the mechanic itself. Soldiers have a lot of gear on them, even if it is stored in nanite form. They shouldn't be acrobats. Jumping/vaulting should have a large cooldown and long animations.

But other then that I love this stuff. Shit makes the game fun and adds to all the flavor that this forum spouts that it loves. I want as much of it ingame as possible without getting in the devs way for release.

[Stardouser]

Vaulting seems like an issue with level design rather then the mechanic itself. Soldiers have a lot of gear on them, even if it is stored in nanite form. They shouldn't be acrobats. Jumping/vaulting should have a large cooldown and long animations.


Speaking specifically to vaulting, my real complaint with it is that it seems to fail spectacularly. ie, you should step over 6 inch obstacles, not vault, and even on 6 inch obstacles sometimes you fail to vault them just because you were not facing it dead on with an exactly perpendicular angle. If you hit it at 85 degrees instead of 90, you don't vault it. Regardless of the cause, if that's how it is, I'd rather not have it.

And as for jumping, BC2 did it right - either after your first or second jump, your next jumps would be extremely weak if you didn't quit trying for a few seconds. Since both PS2 and BC2 have similar infantry movement decisions(ie, no prone), I'd rather they look to BC2 for inspiration. That brings up another question - in BC2, you can move relatively swiftly while in crouch, in order to make up for the lack of prone. I think we should be able to move kind of swiftly in crouch in PS2 as well.

[Immigrant]

It's not an exploit. People should not be expected to sit still and accept being shot.

Yes, it is. jumping should be used for climbing on buildings and structure not dodging enemy fire (except maybe grenades) - so it's an exploit of otherwise legal game mechanic. Mass effect had no jumping yet you weren't supposed to stand still while enemies shot at you. There are other ways of avoiding being hit like running or hiding behind obstacles. Jumping like retarded while spraying bullets around is just plain stupid and ruins immersion. Another solution that would satisfy me is to have jumping but restrict it so it couldn't be done consecutively - there would have to be at least 5 seconds intervals between 2 jumps.

[Stardouser]

Yes, it is. jumping should be used for climbing on buildings and structure not dodging enemy fire (except maybe grenades) - so it's an exploit of otherwise legal game mechanic. Mass effect had no jumping yet you weren't supposed to stand still while enemies shot at you. There are other ways of avoiding being hit like running or hiding behind obstacles. Jumping like retarded while spraying bullets around is just plain stupid and ruins immersion. Another solution that would satisfy me is to have jumping but restrict it so it could be done consecutively - there would have to be 5 seconds intervals between 2 jumps.

No game should allow you to fire while jumping, some do, though.

Like I said above, BC2 did it right on this. I don't remember if your jumps become weak after the first jump or the second, but very quickly, your jumps become impotent and can't be used to avoid fire. You can still jump, though, so it's not insanely restrictive.

[Immigrant]

No game should allow you to fire while jumping, some do, though.

Like I said above, BC2 did it right on this. I don't remember if your jumps become weak after the first jump or the second, but very quickly, your jumps become impotent and can't be used to avoid fire. You can still jump, though, so it's not insanely restrictive.
This sounds ok to me. :thumbsup:

[The Kush]

I want to play Planetside not BF3. Please stop with these topics don't give the devs any stupid ideas. There is a point when you add too much to a game and then it sucks. Dont cross that line.

[Stardouser]

I want to play Planetside not BF3. Please stop with these topics don't give the devs any stupid ideas. There is a point when you add too much to a game and then it sucks. Dont cross that line.

You do realize that this post is for prevention, not suggestion?

[The Kush]

You do realize that this post is for prevention, not suggestion?

My apologies I misread your post, I am in agreement with you. Too much immersion is annoying. And yea especially the head bob when running, and explosions blurring your screen.

[Stardouser]

Speaking of not copying DICE too much on BF3, it looks like the forum complaints around the internet mean a bit more than DICE admits:

https://twitter.com/#!/ChristinaCoffin/status/195559003487600641

"telemetry tells the truth, but in the end playerbase perception is reality and kinda trumps it"

NB: Christina Coffin is an ex DICE dev.

[Vancha]

My apologies I misread your post, I am in agreement with you. Too much immersion is annoying. And yea especially the head bob when running, and explosions blurring your screen.
If it's annoying, it's probably not immersion. In fact, I'd call it the opposite of immersion.

[Immigrant]

If it's annoying, it's probably not immersion.

Yeah, I also noticed that this thread is actually about realism, not about immersion. All the thing slisted in the first post don't contribute much to game immersion from my point of view, there are far more important thing like actual game community. Game doesn't need to be hyperrealistic to be immersive.

[Stardouser]

Yeah, I also noticed that this thread is actually about realism, not about immersion. All the thing slisted in the first post don't contribute much to game immersion from my point of view, there are far more important thing like actual game community. Game doesn't need to be hyperrealistic to be immersive.

Technically, yes, all these things happen to be realism issues as well, although you can understand why these realism issues are separate from realism issues such as bullet drop/recoil/etc. With a couple of exceptions (such as suppression) these things are almost totally not indirectly beneficial to gameplay or balance; for example, bullet drop and recoil prevent long range easy spraydowns.

Basically, all these things I'm talking about here, with regard to them I say - we're trying to kick each other's butt, not recreate Saving Private Ryan - Auraxis.

[The Kush]

Technically, yes, all these things happen to be realism issues as well, although you can understand why these realism issues are separate from realism issues such as bullet drop/recoil/etc. With a couple of exceptions (such as suppression) these things are almost totally not indirectly beneficial to gameplay or balance; for example, bullet drop and recoil prevent long range easy spraydowns.

Basically, all these things I'm talking about here, with regard to them I say - we're trying to kick each other's butt, not recreate Saving Private Ryan - Auraxis.
Exactly

[Toppopia]

I like the idea of suppression because then you can have 1-2 people suppress a target as your group moves up, but if they do add it i want it to be better than Battlefield 3, because there were times i would suppress an enemy with my LMG then they can still either snipe me or pop out of cover like an idiot and shoot me, if only gamers understood the concept of 'Being shot at, better stay in cover.' not 'Being shot at, better stand in the open.' Maybe make accuracy really bad if being suppressed so that even if you do want to shoot back it is not pointless but it won't be effective either.

[Vancha]

Technically, yes, all these things happen to be realism issues as well, although you can understand why these realism issues are separate from realism issues such as bullet drop/recoil/etc. With a couple of exceptions (such as suppression) these things are almost totally not indirectly beneficial to gameplay or balance; for example, bullet drop and recoil prevent long range easy spraydowns.

Basically, all these things I'm talking about here, with regard to them I say - we're trying to kick each other's butt, not recreate Saving Private Ryan - Auraxis.
I agree that the kind of "realism" you're talking about is probably best left out of Planetside, but I also think immersion is incredibly, incredibly important, so for me the distinction's an important one.

[Stardouser]

I agree that the kind of "realism" you're talking about is probably best left out of Planetside, but I also think immersion is incredibly, incredibly important, so for me the distinction's an important one.

What are some methods of immersion that we can have that don't fit into the above categories?

Detailed cockpits are a good example, and while there are some people who will no doubt come up with a complaint about forced cockpits, the fact is, cockpits don't blur your screen, shift back and forth as you run, or any of that.

And then there's other immersion too...I consider high levels of inter-empire interactivity to be immersive. That a squad leader or other command person can draw on a map would be a very high level of immersion for me.

What else can you think of?

[Toppopia]

When you reload a gun, that magazine stays half empty or whatever amount was left in it when you reloaded, so you could have an option where you chuck away magazines and select one of these options: 20% full, 50% full or throw away no matter how full it is.

Since i find it kind of annoying how i can reload with 1 bullet left then i don't end up with 1 magazine left with 1 bullet, i know this sounds too complicated to implement but would be cool to actually keep track of your ammo and not reload after only firing 5 shots every time because the magazines won't magically refill to 100% from other half empty magazines.

[Stardouser]

When you reload a gun, that magazine stays half empty or whatever amount was left in it when you reloaded, so you could have an option where you chuck away magazines and select one of these options: 20% full, 50% full or throw away no matter how full it is.

Since i find it kind of annoying how i can reload with 1 bullet left then i don't end up with 1 magazine left with 1 bullet, i know this sounds too complicated to implement but would be cool to actually keep track of your ammo and not reload after only firing 5 shots every time because the magazines won't magically refill to 100% from other half empty magazines.

I'm indifferent as to whether I'd consider that immersive. I mean, mag system, sure, I can go for that...but actually retaining the partial mags? Hmmmmm.....

The key here I think is going to be, how smooth and well distributed will the reload process be? How many mags would you spawn with? Customizable subject to a weight limit perhaps?

[Toppopia]

Another way to make it simple is that you always choose the fullest mag to use, so if you had 2 left, one with 15 shots and one with 25 shots, it will choose the 25 shots left, but then there is the problem of if you are in a firefight, then you keep reloading to only 2-5 bullets, would be a annoying, unless you can look in your inventory and click on the mags it would deconstruct and combine with other mags to make full ammo again. But now this sounds too complex to be pratical.

[Immigrant]

What are some methods of immersion that we can have that don't fit into the above categories?

As far as game battle mechanics go the usual - friendly fire, no damage from small arms to vehicles, hit-boxes... but I believe dev team will make a decent job so we shouldn't worry about this.

My biggest concerns when it comes to immersion come to DON'TS like silly halloween-costume skins, "pets", pokemon named outfits/clans and all the other similar out-of-place crap that some online f2p games have and allow to attract kids to buy premium accounts.

As far as immersion goes I have an idea for engineer repair and build and medics heal mechanics. Usually in most games you just go to the place and press-release or press'n'hold a button to do these kind of activities (what is boring is there's no action around). It would be nice for a change that these classes had to do something to accomplish their task faster - maybe a mini-game of some sort. But this could be risky if not well implemented. So I'm not really sure where I stand on this 'cause I realize it could backfire badly.

[Stardouser]

I always thought of friendly fire as more prevention of explosives/grenade spam than immersion....but either way, personally I think there's a lot of danger of FF being off(at least on some of the servers) and small arms damaging vehicles. I really think grenades, and everything below them, shouldn't harm armored vehicles(maybe grenades can damage them if you throw them under the tank).

[Immigrant]

I always thought of friendly fire as more prevention of explosives/grenade spam than immersion....but either way, personally I think there's a lot of danger of FF being off(at least on some of the servers) and small arms damaging vehicles. I really think grenades, and everything below them, shouldn't harm armored vehicles(maybe grenades can damage them if you throw them under the tank).

FF affect the way you can play a game so if on you have to be careful not to frag your teammates with grenades when clearing rooms or not to run into friendly's line of fire. Thus it directly contributes to immersion imo. I agree on vehicle part except it should really specifically depend on the type of weapon and vehicle in question i.e. heavy assault's MG should be able to damage quads.

Also it would be nice if headgear types weren't purely cosmetic - so that an actual helmet protects you slightly more against headshots then a beret i.e.

[Vancha]

What are some methods of immersion that we can have that don't fit into the above categories?

Detailed cockpits are a good example, and while there are some people who will no doubt come up with a complaint about forced cockpits, the fact is, cockpits don't blur your screen, shift back and forth as you run, or any of that.

And then there's other immersion too...I consider high levels of inter-empire interactivity to be immersive. That a squad leader or other command person can draw on a map would be a very high level of immersion for me.

What else can you think of?
Boarding animations and holstered weapons are the most infamous examples of immersive features, but weapon drawing animations, having the HUD helmet-shaped, having the ammo count on your gun, not being able to phase through friendlies or the environment, having sufficient narrative elements in the environment to draw you in to the world...they're just some off the top of my head.

The whole killcam argument contained a good example of this. Merely switching to a replay of your death is pretty immersion-breaking, while perhaps explaining it as an eyeball implant that was clearly a machine replaying the last things you saw before you died, or having CCTVs around structures that was replaying your death from their point of view would be slightly more immersive. They're things happening in the world rather than a game feature separate from the digital reality.

Edit: And as an example of immersion vs realism, the nanite weapon holstering idea isn't at all realistic, but it's far, far more immersive than simply pulling a weapon out of thin-air.

[Stardouser]

Ooooh! HUD being obviously rendered inside your helmet, now that's a big immersive factor(inb4 "omg forced helmet graphic").

[Death2All]

I pretty much hate everything on that list. All of it either gives me a headache, hurts my eyes/ears or just plain frustrates me. I don't need to be immersed to enjoy a game. Realism doesn't add any fun to a game for me, it just makes it lamer.

SOE should keep in mind that this is a Sci-Fi shooter game with immortal space soldiers fighting each other forever. Realism shouldn't be that high of a priority, at least for the game play mechanics anyways.