100's of Certs

[Kipper]

I think I read in Higby's Gamesradar thing that they already have trees with hundreds of certifications for character customization.

If that's the case, I for one am very much looking forward to everyone being able to add a little bit of uniqueness and specialisation to how their character works and what vehicle setups they can have.

Coupled with tasteful cosmetic customisations, I look forward to seeing a lot of variety in battles!

One thing that's been a puzzler for me lately though, as much as I'm TR, I can't help thinking that I want access to some sort of laser, I love the lighting effects I've seen from the Vanu energy weapons....

[Bluecewe]

The certifications appear to be very similar to Eve Online's skills, which the developers originally said they wanted to in some part model progression on.

Though there are "core" skills in Eve which all pilots should have, there are so many skills that every player brings a different style of combat to the field. Seeing that in a shooter envrionment will be very interesting.

[Immigrant]

as much as I'm TR, I can't help thinking that I want access to some sort of laser, I love the lighting effects I've seen from the Vanu energy weapons....

Resist the dark urges... if you go Vanu you'll have change your whole lifestyle - you'd have to grow a mustache like Seinfeld said: seinfeld menage - YouTube

Watch from 0:59 I can't make it show from that point here on the forum.

[Ailos]

One thing that's been a puzzler for me lately though, as much as I'm TR, I can't help thinking that I want access to some sort of laser, I love the lighting effects I've seen from the Vanu energy weapons....

So get yourself a laser pointer.

[Ruffdog]

Only bad guys use frickin laser beams...

[Shlomoshun]

i'm a bit leery of this system if it's going to be like EVE (as you mention, there were several 'core' skills that everyone took) from the standpoint of there being 'better' skills to get and 'worse' ones, particularly in the early game.
I can see certain skills and combo's being significantly stronger than others out of the gate, and these becoming the essential 'early game leveling cert's. Essentially this would lead to a power-leveling format that everyone would follow, regardless of what role the eventually actually wanted to play. For example:

Take light infantry first...add the armor and then the jumpjet certs. USe that to build up 4 points, at which point you'd take the MAX suit for anti infantry and get the flamethrower sidegrades...gather up 6 points, use that for your piloting cert to use your empire specific gunship, along with it's armor and Air to Ground upgrades......at which point you'll gain XP much quicker than others in general due to being more deadly.

To me, the hard part will be their balancing the leveling curves of, say the medic role with curves of the engineer, MAX, pilots, drivers, infiltrator in stealth role, infiltrator in sniper role, etc...such taht they all generally get the same XP/hour...otherwise, there will always be a powerleveling component to what certs to take rather than actual player preference.

One thing I can see happening is if leveling in the infiltrator role is too slow, people will continue to play something else, while dumping their points into that role, until such point they have the sidegrades they want to switch over to it full-time and not feel as gimped...

[Gonefshn]

One thing I can see happening is if leveling in the infiltrator role is too slow, people will continue to play something else, while dumping their points into that role, until such point they have the sidegrades they want to switch over to it full-time and not feel as gimped...

Your talking like this will work just like Planetside one where at a certain Battlerank you get cert points. In the first game yea, no matter what you are doing your getting cert points to spend on anything you want so it made sense to do whatever action would get you XP fastest.

In PS2 your leveling each cert tree individually.

If you want to level your infiltrator certs you need to play infiltrator. While your flying a reaver, your unlocking certs for reaver. You gain XP or cert points for a class or a vehicle by using it. You cant fly in a reaver all day long and dump the XP into Heavy Assault. If you want to be proficient in a certain avenue of the game then you need to play it.

[Shlomoshun]

Your talking like this will work just like Planetside one where at a certain Battlerank you get cert points. In the first game yea, no matter what you are doing your getting cert points to spend on anything you want so it made sense to do whatever action would get you XP fastest.

In PS2 your leveling each cert tree individually.

If you want to level your infiltrator certs you need to play infiltrator. While your flying a reaver, your unlocking certs for reaver. You gain XP or cert points for a class or a vehicle by using it. You cant fly in a reaver all day long and dump the XP into Heavy Assault. If you want to be proficient in a certain avenue of the game then you need to play it.

Gotcha. That was one of the solutions I had thought they might need to turn too. Still plenty of questions, but the big concern is relieved. How does that work with the offline leveling I wonder? Do you just get a little XP in every cert tree over time?
Also, your initial purchase of a cert tree, what do you use for that? Money/resources, or XP? and what type of XP would qualify to buy a new role?
Lastly, they'll still need to balance each cert up in terms of XP per hour, otherwise eventually you'll have, for example, exclusive Reaver pilots with every skill unlocked while exclusive Infiltrators may only have 1/2 their skills... Not that they cant do it, but they'll need to be aware of this issue.

[Gonefshn]

Gotcha. That was one of the solutions I had thought they might need to turn too. Still plenty of questions, but the big concern is relieved. How does that work with the offline leveling I wonder? Do you just get a little XP in every cert tree over time?
Also, your initial purchase of a cert tree, what do you use for that? Money/resources, or XP? and what type of XP would qualify to buy a new role?
Lastly, they'll still need to balance each cert up in terms of XP per hour, otherwise eventually you'll have, for example, exclusive Reaver pilots with every skill unlocked while exclusive Infiltrators may only have 1/2 their skills... Not that they cant do it, but they'll need to be aware of this issue.

First off I can see where you are coming from but if it takes longer to unlock all the certs for one role over another is that really that big of an issue?? I don't think it really matters that much though I can see how having them balanced so it's pretty close would be nice.

From what I understand you don't need to purchase a cert tree, you can just use anything you want from the get go. The trade off is if your using something for the first time you have it in it's most basic form. As I said before, the more you play Medic class, the more your unlocking for the medic class. Like in BF3, your not locked out of anything, and you get more out of it by using it.

Also I think for your offline development it will work that you can choose which cert tree you want to level passively It wont just level them all slowly.

Someone please correct me if anything I have just stated is incorrect but this is how I understand it and I've been following this game and all the content released since it was announced.

[Lonehunter]

...I'm TR...I want access to some sort of laser...
UNPOSSIBLE!

I hope lazers stay on VS

[Shlomoshun]

First off I can see where you are coming from but if it takes longer to unlock all the certs for one role over another is that really that big of an issue?? I don't think it really matters that much though I can see how having them balanced so it's pretty close would be nice.

From what I understand you don't need to purchase a cert tree, you can just use anything you want from the get go. The trade off is if your using something for the first time you have it in it's most basic form. As I said before, the more you play Medic class, the more your unlocking for the medic class. Like in BF3, your not locked out of anything, and you get more out of it by using it.

Also I think for your offline development it will work that you can choose which cert tree you want to level passively It wont just level them all slowly.

Someone please correct me if anything I have just stated is incorrect but this is how I understand it and I've been following this game and all the content released since it was announced.

Thanks for the input. that's very informative and for the most part makes alot of sense.

[WorldOfForms]

Wait, what? Where have the devs said that flying a reaver builds up reaver certs. I don't recall anything of the sort mentioned. I thought you specialize by earning certs no matter what you do, then you spend those points on whatever you want.

[Gonefshn]

I'd have to look it up, I am quite sure atleast for classes you earn their abilities and tools etc by using them. I am pretty sure vehicles work the same way. Driving the Vanguard will help you gain access to the sidegrades and weapons available to the Vangaurd etc.

If this isn't how it works then honestly thats lame. But I'm pretty sure it does. Hopefully someone who is better with archiving past information will come in here and set us all straight lol. I'm pretty sure it was discussed in interviews.

[Badjuju]

Only bad guys use frickin laser beams...

You are aware the the TR are the bad guys in this story right? Laser beams are only inherently evil when combined with animals, such as sharks.

[Ailos]

You are aware the the TR are the bad guys in this story right? Laser beams are only inherently evil when combined with animals, such as velociraptors.

Fixed.

[HellsPanda]

As I understood it, and its possibly wrong. You earn cert points within a given class, and you can distribute that freely within that tree.

[Noivad]

You are aware the the TR are the bad guys in this story right? Laser beams are only inherently evil when combined with animals, such as sharks.

Bad Guys - WTF - Did you NOT read the back Stories. The NC have all the Corporation Big Shots that want to stuff their own pockets full of Money. They want the liberal rebels to run amock believing that they are entitled to every thing the Empire has without working or paying for it. And the Vs - lol those snobs of Science. Instead of using technology to help the poor citzens of Auraxis they instead strive to use Alien weapons against all of us.

Yes bad guys you call the TR, The ones who fight for the people. Who give them Rules, Law and Order. The ones whose goal is to protect the people from the lawless NC and the high society VS

It has always been the Military that has given its citzens of Auraxis their Freedoms. The TR Military are organizeed, there is order, citzens know what they can and cannot do. and they can pretty much do anything they like.

They are not cheated like the VS and NC peoples. :evil:

TR for Life - Victory is ours!!!!!

[MonsterBone]

In the VS case its technology they shouldn't be messing with. In the Kardashians case its the Denver Nuggets.

[Mechzz]

In the VS case its technology they shouldn't be messing with. In the Kardashians case its the Denver Nuggets.

The only "nuggets" the VS need to deal with are the Smurfs and the Elmos. Once we get the balance right on the new Lasher, we will be unstoppable.

(Cultural translation: In Scotland, a "nugget" is an annoying, lame person, which sums up the TR and NC nicely)

[Graywolves]

The only "nuggets" the VS need to deal with are the Smurfs and the Elmos. Once we get the balance right on the new Lasher, we will be unstoppable.

(Cultural translation: In Scotland, a "nugget" is an annoying, lame person, which sums up the TR and NC nicely)

I've never seen a red and black nugget.

[BorisBlade]

Unless im missing something you dont actually "specialize". Where one guy is spec'd out for some certain kind of cloaker while unable to play the other versions without goin back for a recert or whatever.

You unlock things and you have it forever, they call it certs, but its just unlocking. There is no limit like actual cert trees have. You can "cert" every single thing in the game at the same time once you spend enough tme playin to unlock it. You literally have it all, there is no specialization in that at all.

The only actual specialization is what you have for your loadout in that specific lifespan, or since you last hit up an equipment terminal. Its like saying you are specialized into blue crayons, but giving you an entire box of 100 colors. Yeah you can only use one at a time, but you can instantly go and switch to another and make a colorful drawing, its not actual specialization. Its fake, cosmetic specialization.

Having said that, they seem to still have it in a bit of flux. I'm hoping they still do the unlock part like they want, but also add real certs on top of that. So you unlock the ability to use the certs (its greyed out til unlocked), but then have a LIMITED number of certs to spend to pick and chose from those things you have unlocked so you can activate those certs. Something that has to be reset, on a timer, for a cost. For example, there are 25 certs in a tree, but you can only get 10 or 15(arbitrary numbers), currently you can get all 25. That way you actually do specialize. In a game where they focus so much on customizing things, not being able to actually specialize and just getting a cosmetic version of it is really lame.

[Immigrant]

Unless im missing something you dont actually "specialize". Where one guy is spec'd out for some certain kind of cloaker while unable to play the other versions without goin back for a recert or whatever.

You unlock things and you have it forever, they call it certs, but its just unlocking. There is no limit like actual cert trees have. You can "cert" every single thing in the game at the same time once you spend enough tme playin to unlock it. You literally have it all, there is no specialization in that at all.

The only actual specialization is what you have for your loadout in that specific lifespan, or since you last hit up an equipment terminal. Its like saying you are specialized into blue crayons, but giving you an entire box of 100 colors. Yeah you can only use one at a time, but you can instantly go and switch to another and make a colorful drawing, its not actual specialization. Its fake, cosmetic specialization.

Having said that, they seem to still have it in a bit of flux. I'm hoping they still do the unlock part like they want, but also add real certs on top of that. So you unlock the ability to use the certs (its greyed out til unlocked), but then have a LIMITED number of certs to spend to pick and chose from those things you have unlocked so you can activate those certs. Something that has to be reset, on a timer, for a cost. For example, there are 25 certs in a tree, but you can only get 10 or 15(arbitrary numbers), currently you can get all 25. That way you actually do specialize. In a game where they focus so much on customizing things, not being able to actually specialize and just getting a cosmetic version of it is really lame.

I think you're missing the point. Most people will specialize in practice. Especially in the beginning. To unlock advanced option for i.e. tank driving you'll have to unlock the basic ones first so a dedicated tank driver will first unlock tank related certs. Also they said it will take a year or more to unlock them all and that still doesn't imply you'll max them out straight away since basically your certs will bet getter the more you use them (so to get everything maxed up it'll take years if ever possible). Also I doubt they won't add more certs as times goes by. Locking you out from certain cert options permanently for making a choice two or three months ago would suck imho. I like the current scheme, and the way dev team reasons on this matter.

[Kipper]

In MMORPG it makes sense to have to take a character down a certain path and make choices, as annoying as it is to have to have multiple toons to try all aspects of gameplay, current RPGs are about hotbars and cooldown timers and learning when to click skills, so you need the mechanism to stop some demon fighter-wizard with healing skills from owning everything in sight.

In MMOFPS, your actual skill and levels of practice translate much more directly into the game - you specialise by practicing, you get better at flying a galaxy by spending time flying a galaxy and learning what works and what doesn't. It makes sense to me that you can unlock further options in a class/vehicle by spending time using that class/vehicle. If you have all certs on aircraft, that won't help you if you choose to drive a tank for a bit - so you aren't able to use all certs at all times, only relevant ones.

You can be equal in-game with another player, and actual skill will determine who comes out on top.

[NCLynx]

Can't wait. This means that we won't stop having progression on our characters for quite some time! :D

[Gonefshn]

Hundreds probably means every individual talent point. It's likely that most talents require numerous points to max out, as opposed to hundreds of individual talents that all drastically change or add functionality. For example, increased armor talent for the heavy class may add 2% armor with every point you spend, for a total of 10%. It's just a seemingly big number they use to impress people.

I don't think there will be straight percent upgrades like 2% more damage on rifles etc included. I think it's mostly unlocking options and additional equipment.

[Duddy]

It makes sense to me that you can unlock further options in a class/vehicle by spending time using that class/vehicle. If you have all certs on aircraft, that won't help you if you choose to drive a tank for a bit - so you aren't able to use all certs at all times, only relevant ones.

Given the latter, why does the former make sense?

Rather: why should you need to play a singular role to progress your character?

Lets use PS1 as an example, if you had told people in PS1 that to unlock certs for say the MBTs you had to spend time only being to use the lightning then they'd of probably of told you to do one.

In BF3 there was the issue that new pilots were less able to progress with their air unlocks because more experienced pilots had access to tools they needed to be successful whilst new players didn't.

To even speculate for PS2, what if the role you want to play is not as readily viable/available? Vehicles and (potentially) MAXes will cost resources, meaning they can't always be used; likewise infantry isn't always useful outdoors.

I believe, and sincerely hope, that training of certs will be a "any role, any time" approach; if it isn't then you will have players frustrated that their game time does not always contribute to how they wish to play.

[Kipper]

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying.

If you have a skill, it makes sense that the way you get better at it is to practice it. Stuff you know about it becomes easier (thats the 'you' part), and in addition, you acquire new knowledge about it that before you started, you didn't dream of (thats the 'cert' part).

Real life example - a few years ago I decided to try and learn to play the guitar, from zero knowledge - I learnt a couple of chord shapes from a beginner book to start me off. I had something that other complete guitar noobs didn't have, but was easy to get. With practice, using the new knowledge became more natural, and with experience I "unlocked" new chords that would have been impossible at first, but now they weren't. The further I go, the more natural I get with knowledge I gain, and I 'unlock' new guitar skills as I go. So by your analagy, should I now be able to play the drums?

For PS2, the role you want to play will almost always be viable - you just have to find a place to make it work for you. If you want to be air support, go and find a battle in the open space, don't rock up at the indoor base fight and then complain that you can't use your flying skills.

If you exclusively want to play at being one single thing, then occasionally, you might be disappointed. Most people will play all of the roles but strongly favour two or three of them, so they'll always have something to fall back on, and will be rewarded more by being able to specialise more than someone who plays them all equally, both in their actual skill, and the equipment/skills available to them.

It just makes total sense to me. Why should you get all the aircraft unlocks without ever sitting in an aircraft?

New players to a role won't be farmed by players with lots of unlocks, its already been stated that the difference will not be unbalancing for the 5 min vs 5 year player; other than in your actual skill (which is transferable from other FPS). Newbies will kill oldbies just the same, oldbies will just have more options to really zone into how they want to play, rather than how much raw power they have. Speed at the cost of armour, and all that.

[Raka Maru]

From what I understand in this PS2 skill tree model, you get certs to spend as you wish, which will unlock side grades to let you be more diverse.

For example, playing anything at all will earn you certs. Certs can be used to "learn" new things or ways to do things. Consider it paying for a semester in college or tech school. You now have the cert and can play that role if you wish. If you spent cert points for that tree.

This is not like UO where you have to make 10k daggers to level your blacksmith skills.

[Gonefshn]

We have people saying they think it's both ways, I know I already said what I believe it to be. We need someone who actually knows for sure to speak up lol.

[Duddy]

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying.

Sorry, perhaps I wasn't clear.

To start, please don't pull the real life example here. I think we're all aware that a skill, in real life, requires practice to acquire.

However, we're not talking about it as a RL skill, we're talking about a cert point which is earned over time (by time itself or accelerated by XP) for doing any in-game activity. Hence why I hesitate to use the word skill, because a cert isn't a "skill" its merely an upgrade, a boost or perhaps in some cases an activated ability. "Skill" is something the player themselves develop, much like any RL skill.

So unless you're then going to have additional systems to regulate what EXP and what time counts towards what role it doesn't make practical sense to only earn certs for the role you're currently playing.

As for the viable part, sure you can argue to go to where your play style is viable but I'd consider that naive. There's not always going to be a fight elsewhere, nor always the option to leave, and even if there is it may be one again your "chosen" role isn't good for.

That is from a technical perspective, but now from an entirely subjective view:

Having to play each role, exclusively, in order to attain the certs (not "skills") to play the role seems wrong to me. The Battlefield series class unlock system is an example of something I don't agree with.

Sure, technically speaking it makes sense, but I'm willing to wager a lot of people actually found it to be a hindrance. How many people honestly can admit to enjoying playing through each class one by one to unlock everything? I know I didn't, I've even seen Higby say on twitter something along the lines of "Assault done, now to unlock Recon, ughh" (I am of course paraphrasing, I tried to find the exact tweet, but there are so many :/).

I suppose the two big questions that need to be asked are:
- What benefit does restricting the certs you earn to the role you were playing have over allowing any certs to be spent on any role?
- Given the previous, does that create more "fun" (or reduce more loss of "fun") over the alternative?

To which I'd have to say, little and nope.

Hope that clarifies!

[Kipper]

You're right in that it likely doesn't matter if you allow people to unlock something by doing something else - so its not a game breaker.

Personally, I tend to feel more 'immersed' when rewards match up to what you did to earn them. Say like killing a wolf in Skyrim allows you to loot wolf pelts from it, I just get ever so slightly annoyed when you kill a wild animal and it drops money. Kinda makes me stop believing that little bit that what just happened made some sort of sense.

It doesn't make it any more or less fun for me personally either way; I think the word is 'satisfying'. The game says "Great job flying that Galaxy, here, have an upgrade for that vehicle!" means more than receiving generic upgrades.

But then, how you spend your points is up to you too, so... again... either way works in the end.

[Gonefshn]

So unless you're then going to have additional systems to regulate what EXP and what time counts towards what role it doesn't make practical sense to only earn certs for the role you're currently playing.

-------------------------------------------

I suppose the two big questions that need to be asked are:
- What benefit does restricting the certs you earn to the role you were playing have over allowing any certs to be spent on any role?
- Given the previous, does that create more "fun" (or reduce more loss of "fun") over the alternative?

To the first part, I don't know what you mean about "unless". Having those systems that put your exp into the role your playing/vehicle you are driving/gun your shooting is incredibly straightforward. You play medic, you further your medic cert tree. Simple and easy to understand. Not to mention that BF3 and many other games have systems like that working already.

I see your point that maybe its not fun to play every tree to unlock everything. But to me the other side of it is simple. Why should you be able to unlock all the Infiltrator skills and have all the best infiltrator abilities if all you ever do is fly a reaver??

Having a system that is based on learning by doing creates a more tangible sense of accomplishment, and also makes more sense as a fair reward.

If you have a system where you earn universal XP that can then be put into any category, regardless of how it was earned, you have a problem. People who want to unlock HA or the MBT certs or any specific thing will find what role on the battlefield can get them this XP the quickest. In any game like this people are eventually going to figure out what ways are best to "farm" for XP. With universal XP you will have XP farmers instead of people who want to earn abilities for a class spending quality time using the class or vehicle to earn it.

[Duddy]

Why should you be able to unlock all the Infiltrator skills and have all the best infiltrator abilities if all you ever do is fly a reaver??

Having a system that is based on learning by doing creates a more tangible sense of accomplishment, and also makes more sense as a fair reward.

If you have a system where you earn universal XP that can then be put into any category, regardless of how it was earned, you have a problem. In any game like this people are eventually going to figure out what ways are best to "farm" for XP. With universal XP you will have XP farmers instead of people who want to earn abilities for a class spending quality time using the class or vehicle to earn it.

For that first bit, allow me to propose to you two questions:
- Why, in a game that utilises "classes" for balance, would we ever think it a good idea to not facilitate playing whatever class was needed, rather than only the class the player thinks is most effective?
- Given the previous, why would we provide incentive for gravitating towards only one role at a time?

The system you suggest penalises players for playing roles that are needed and instead rewards playing roles that are perceived as more effective by the player. It also promotes stale gameplay because as players gravitate and stick to the most effective roles and probably has a negative effect on diversity people are less likely to change role.

As for that second part, I'd say the sense of accomplishment was subjective. Personally if I had to slog through a class I would probably feel disenfranchised instead. As such I highlighted "quality time" as I'd feel I was being forced to play a class I would otherwise only play marginally.

Regarding the third section, that will happen in any game and in any system. Players gravitate to what is effective and perceived as such, regardless of whether it is what they want to do (see cookie cutter specs in WoW). Surely we should reward people for making use of the diversity of the game by allowing them to play however they want, or at the very least whilst still progressing in something they prefer!

[Raka Maru]

If the cert tree of anything is like those of Eve, the lower skills will be unlockable in minutes, and the higher ones will take weeks and months. You have cert points, spend them, then wait for the learning timer to complete.

Isn't PS2 cert system based on Eve?

[Retrograde]

Well, I think I understand the OP from playing other more defined MMO games that have a "leveling path". In a traditional MMO, you suck as a healer/tank/dps until you get to a certain level where you have the tools to participate. Planetside's design was exactly the opposite. You start with the tools you need. Levels just open up new play experiences.

PS1 always felt more like Counter-strike's money system. Once you earned some coin, you got the weapon combo you liked best. Nothing else really mattered after that. PS2 adds some complexity with classes, but hopefully the same idea still stands.

So, it's kinda like this (for the new people). Before you grab the base's courtyard, it's really open ended with vehicles, aircraft, max units, etc...After your side gets into the courtyard and can spawn there, it's an indoor pure infantry-style fight. At least that's how I remember it (BR20 era).

That being said, there were really totally distinct game experiences (and derivatives of those). What made PS1 so much fun for so long was the ability to really mix these roles up to find the game you wanted to play.

Here's how I broke it down:

Cloaker - knifer, orbital strikes, etc...
Sniper - two bolt drivers for fast switching, atv/buggy to get around.
Driver - heavy and light tanks mostly.
Fighter Pilot - Air/Air, Air/Ground combat.
Infantry - Different weapon/armor mixes, max suit, gunner in any kind of craft.
Transport - Galaxy/Sunderer, ams, etc...
Support - engineer, medic, hacker.

These were not mutually exclusive. It really was mix and match. People picked a style they liked best and played that "primary" role until the situation called for your "secondary" role.

From a leveling perspective, at low level, you might be just a gunner & infantry. You hitched a ride in a transport or gunned in a tank. Once high enough level, you got a max suit or went heavy armor.

If you went air certs, you flew until the battle went indoors. Once you got higher level, you got engineer so you could repair your plane.

Or you drove a tank until it went inside, then you had heavy armor (I think that was a valid combo). Or repair, if you wanted that path. If you were like me, you flew something until the battle went inside, then died over and over in the same doorway for about two hours.

What seems different about PS2 is they compressed the roles with classes, but increased the depth at each role.

Again, this is just my .02 cents worth, but it was never about level progression.

[Raka Maru]

Level progression as opposed to experience expansion.

I will probably continue to play my favorite layout, tho have more options after a few months/years.

[Mechzz]

Interesting discussion on how the cert tree will work.

The BF system of unlocks, where you learn by doing is appropriate in that type of game because the things you unlock materially affect how well you can perform that role.

But, as we know, Planetside is all about sidegrades. In the GDC video, Higby has like 89 unspent cert points and he gave me the impression he could spend those how he wanted to, not bound by his playstyle preferences.

So my take on it so far is that you can use unspent cert points to "take a course" sort of outside the real game (e.g. at the Vanu Institute of Higher Learning) to advance any aspect of your character, not just those you've been actively playing. So I can take a course in Infil to be a better infiil. Now why would SOE let me do that if I always play Engy? Because I will play the game for longer, end of.

It's in SOE's interest to let us all unlock everything, and the only way they'll do that for a significant portion of the player base is to not bind it to our actual class choices in-game.

I understand why peeps are arguing for learning-by-doing, but I think in terms of maintaining the overall player numbers, just letting us unlock everything will win. My personal example is BC2, where I didn't get all the Assault unlocks because I didn't play the class much. Yet once I had all the unlocks that I would reasonably get, my interest in the game evaporated.

Personal experience is that my interest in a game wanes fairly quickly once I feel I've gotten as much from a game as I can, and reaching a dead-end in the cert tree is one thing that can trigger the "ok, I'm bored now" reaction. So that's why I could play PS1 for 6 months, Skyrim and Oblivion for 3 months+, but BC2 for 1 month or less. PS1 was a "bigger" game in every way and when you add the human interaction it's just a much more compelling deal than any other type of game out there.

And remember, you still have to "walk the walk" and actually play as a good infil to get any use out of those certs you spent.

So letting us spend the points on what we want isn't a bad thing for SOE (we play the game longer a la Skinner Box), it isn't a bad thing for the player as it increases satisfaction and it doesn't unbalance the game because the things unlocked by certing them do not add significant power.

tl;dr: PS1 certing for teh win :lol:

[Kipper]

Players don't always play the role that's needed, they play the that they want to play. If it isn't viable in one area, great news - PS2 will have multiple little battles along the front line and on multiple continents.

I didn't play battlefield classes to get unlocks - I played because they were the ones I was having fun with. Getting the unlocks was a nice reward, but being entertained for a couple of free hours was why I was playing.

[Shlomoshun]

I'm with Gonefishn that if you allow certs to be spent in any way, you'll have cookie-cutter advancement roles being developed. People will quickly figure out that say, for certs 1-10, spend them on this role. THen use faster XP generation from that role to stockpile certs 11-20, use them on some other new role that does better for XP generation....then use that role to gather most of your skill points you want for your 'actual' role you want to play.

Otherwise, the only way they'll get people playing the role they actually want to play from cert 1-tree completion is if they can blance the XP/hour between all the roles...For example, infiltrator (non-sniper) will not only need to gather the same XP/hour as infilitrator sniper roles, but also a MBT driver and a MAX wearer.

Open ended cert points will mean everyone will gravitate most of their playtime to whatever role gathers the most XP/hour for 'most' of their playtime. Say that's a combination of MBT Driver and Light Infantry. You'll have a battlefield dominated by MBT's and Light Infantry, and very little else. And whenever they want more XP, they'll abandon their unique role (which provides some level less XP/hour) to go back to the PowerLeveling role, whatever that is. You'll lose battlefield uniqueness and stagnate the game by allowing free-form cert distribution.

It's a balance issue where they'll need to work much harder to make any cert in every role not accellerate the XP of that role any more than any cert in any other role, if they want both battlefield diversity and open class cert advancement.

[Duddy]

I'm with Gonefishn that if you allow certs to be spent in any way, you'll have cookie-cutter advancement roles being developed. People will quickly figure out that say, for certs 1-10, spend them on this role. THen use faster XP generation from that role to stockpile certs 11-20, use them on some other new role that does better for XP generation....then use that role to gather most of your skill points you want for your 'actual' role you want to play.

Otherwise, the only way they'll get people playing the role they actually want to play from cert 1-tree completion is if they can blance the XP/hour between all the roles...For example, infiltrator (non-sniper) will not only need to gather the same XP/hour as infilitrator sniper roles, but also a MBT driver and a MAX wearer.

Open ended cert points will mean everyone will gravitate most of their playtime to whatever role gathers the most XP/hour for 'most' of their playtime. Say that's a combination of MBT Driver and Light Infantry. You'll have a battlefield dominated by MBT's and Light Infantry, and very little else. And whenever they want more XP, they'll abandon their unique role (which provides some level less XP/hour) to go back to the PowerLeveling role, whatever that is. You'll lose battlefield uniqueness and stagnate the game by allowing free-form cert distribution.

It's a balance issue where they'll need to work much harder to make any cert in every role not accellerate the XP of that role any more than any cert in any other role, if they want both battlefield diversity and open class cert advancement.

I think you're foolish to believe that people won't gravitate towards what is most effective anyway. This occurs in any game with any kind of system.

Not a BF3 player so can't speak authoritatively but when BF3 came out didn't people just gravitate to the "most effective" class and play that first? My point being even in a locked system people will always go to "where the money is". PS1 however was an example of an open system, and even then people still prioritised their certs whilst levelling to maximise speed of progression (see med/engy combo).

But is that really an issue? Early on in the game I think it highly unlikely that anyone will have the "optimal" cert distribution figured out, I'd suspect that wouldn't be possible till later. Certainly harder to determine the right way to cert across the board than to say: "This is the best class, play this first".

Even "later" it doesn't matter either because at that point you want to facilitate people being able to catch up so they can enjoy the game also. The same goes for alts, nobody wants to be stuck on a low level alt that is stuck doing exclusively one role do they?

Say it did make a significant difference in cert acquiring, why would that matter? As we already know more certs provide you more-so with additional options than additional power. This isn't a traditional RPG where getting ahead automatically means becoming stronger.

It just seems to me that we're willing to kill off a part of emergent gameplay, you know allowing players to play how they want, to appease a perceived imbalance issue that probably doesn't even exist.

[JimmyOmaha]

This seems somewhat like a non-issue. People are going to cert into their playstyle regardless. Letting them stock up a few extra certs and get a leg up in a new area seems like no big deal. They put in some time, they earn the certs, they spend them wisely wherever they please(well maybe).

Also anyone grinding for certs isn't having much fun anyways.

[Duddy]

I decided to tweet Higby about this he responded with:
certs can be spent anywhere, there aren't separate cert point pools.
Tweet located here: https://twitter.com/#!/mhigby/status/199287269847343104

So that answers that part of the discussion.