View Full Version : Infiltrator == schizo class?
Figment
2012-05-04, 08:03 PM
Thread from june 2012, bumped in october 2012, take that into account while reading the first 6 pages!
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The infiltrator is a bit of a unique class in PS2 in that it does not seem to have a very defined role.
Traditionally the infil could be split into:
Infiltrator - stealth spec ops inside enemy buildings, prepping bases for assaults by friendlies as well as scouting. Very non-combative and supportive.
Cloaked assassin - infil that focuses on picking off the weak and wounded, taking out snipers and isolated targets. In PS2 apparently we get the sniper role as well.
Saboteur - disrupting enemy supply lines, draining bases, destroying equipment and one of the most fun and important things: stealing enemy vehicles (ams, gal, tanks). This last bit will be missed in PS2 As far as I know.
The roles above were enhanced by the ACE in all its versatility and the cloaked AMS. These two things seemed to have largely gone missing with engineering class and Galaxy monopolising these roles.
In return, this traditionally close range unit gaines sniper role capacity.
The character of the infil seems to have changed drastically and I personally feel its options - especially with the lack of ams is sorely diminished (spawnpoint that is very needed for cloakers what with low survivability and risky positioning).
Many players who did not infil may not see the problem or enormous impact this will have, but I feel as if the infil class has both been overnerfed and lost appeal with the changes in engineering, scavenging and hacking vehicles, as well as lacking the support of the ams. At the same time I'm afraid of the infil being buffed with weapons, range and firepower it does not need nor needs to have.
What I see happening is the focus of the infil class moving heavily to the cloaker killwhore assassin type. Most my fun was in the other two, even if that got me few kills and many deaths. This might be due to devs seeing action and personal kills as most fun, like how they felt driving was boring without consulting me or anyone else on that. Basically, I fear catering to those who want non stop action may result in the careful, covert ops being largely overlooked or at least misrepresented somewhat.
I really miss some basic tools to do the type of thing I loved doing in PS. To me, that feels like 'dumbing down' or at least reducing my options. I mean, it's more like sniping got more options, infil did not, as sniping was already possible, just moved to another suit with temp cloaking.
Figment
2012-05-04, 08:07 PM
Oh and the Router is gone too, obviously a big change for infil gameplay too. No Wraith or Phantasm makes moving to your destination fast and undetected a lot harder too. It is as of yet unknown whether cloaked vehicles will be added at all: maybe after release. That handicaps the cloaker further.
Raka Maru
2012-05-04, 08:22 PM
I agree that all the things you stated above will be missed. I played stealth/engineer most of the time.
It doesn't sound hopeless however. We have gadgets promised. I will have to fly a Gal instead of my beloved AMS. I can now carry a sniper rifle in my stealth mode, this is something I couldn't do before. Will not be able to jack vehicles, but maybe demolition is possible with C4.
Anxious to see how it plays out now.
CutterJohn
2012-05-04, 08:36 PM
The infiltrator is a bit of a unique class in PS2 in that it does not seem to have a very defined role.
Their role is being sneaky. PS2 classes are extremely 'loose' by anyones standards.
one of the most fun and important things: stealing enemy vehicles (ams, gal, tanks). This last bit will be missed in PS2 As far as I know.
Fun, but not important. 99.99999% of time, hacking a vehicle was just a method of making the enemies use their ammo to destroy it rather than your own.
Figment
2012-05-04, 08:38 PM
A Galaxy is the most useless tool for an infil ever; nothing screams for more attention!
I would never even consider bringing one, stealing sure, bringing? Hell no.
Another thing that will be missed more on infil than other infantry is third person. Situational awareness is your only defense next to your cloak. I spent 90% of my time in third person to look behind and around me while hacking a console, vehicle or door. It is imperative for timing and aborting any actions. It is also the only way to safely navigate a minefield (walk through middle of diatance between mines), look for boobytraps, check if your movement is visible and of course if somebody is coming (if you move while they come near you, you get spotted and die, lag was bad enough for that).
You don't need to be cloaked to snipe, this and that shotgun they consider will only lead to close range headshot sniping and shotgun rapage. I'm afraid that is just going to annoy enemies and cries for nerfs, tbh. :/
Figment
2012-05-04, 08:43 PM
Cutter, not true: it serves as distraction can cause a lot of damage (mbt), denies firepower (tanks) or logistics: spawns - ams, transportation/prevents hot drop (gal) or slows repairs (lodestar), with it stalling and often turning an entire battle.
I changed the flow and outcome of at least four battles a day with it.
Baneblade
2012-05-04, 09:32 PM
Honestly, PS1 catered way too much to infils.
EVILPIG
2012-05-04, 09:58 PM
I expect to see a variety of roles addressed in the Infiltrator tree.
Raka Maru
2012-05-04, 10:13 PM
Figment, you are getting me depressed again about my favorite role. All your concerns are also my concerns.
I was trying however to look on the bright side because I don't really know what those bright sides will be, as in gadgets.
Vancha
2012-05-04, 10:33 PM
Yeah, I'm slightly worried about this. I get the feeling that infiltrators non-combat roles may have gone with the faster pace of the game, but we'll see.
I mainly just came here to pick on your use of the word schizo. :p
CutterJohn
2012-05-04, 10:36 PM
Cutter, not true: it serves as distraction can cause a lot of damage (mbt), denies firepower (tanks) or logistics: spawns - ams, transportation/prevents hot drop (gal) or slows repairs (lodestar), with it stalling and often turning an entire battle.
I changed the flow and outcome of at least four battles a day with it.
Stealing them to take them for joyrides was unimportant. 'Stealing' them so the enemies would destroy them for you was useful. They could accomplish mostly the same thing by letting you hack a self destruct timer, or simply by planting explosives(i.e. C4).
You don't need to be cloaked to snipe, this and that shotgun they consider will only lead to close range headshot sniping and shotgun rapage. I'm afraid that is just going to annoy enemies and cries for nerfs, tbh. :/
They've already prenerfed cloakers with sniper rifles, making them very much not invisible, even when motionless. I presume they will do something similar with shotguns, though perhaps not to the same degree.
Really the only major change I'm seeing is the [presumed] lack of cloaking spawn and transport.
Captain1nsaneo
2012-05-04, 11:18 PM
I share your concerns about limited roles but I think that the Wraith is now making it into the game if I recall a comment by Higby correctly. When it was last mentioned that there would be no cloaking vehicles and a small storm brewed up and he change their position on it.
Stealing vehicles isn't so much about being very effective so much as it's about having a really good time. Managing to steal a tank or aircraft is a joy. I remember stealing mossies to use for personal transport out of dangerous situations.
Tatwi
2012-05-04, 11:33 PM
I thought the whole purpose of infiltrator was to be that guy who made it so I couldn't get back into my vehicle. Ooooo.... that guy!
Graywolves
2012-05-04, 11:33 PM
Why would the infiltrators be hallucinating things that aren't there?
Or are they going to be paranoid of everything and hearing voices?
Soothsayer
2012-05-04, 11:52 PM
Why would the infiltrators be hallucinating things that aren't there?
Or are they going to be paranoid of everything and hearing voices?
Qft - OP shows ignorance by using misnomer.
Toppopia
2012-05-04, 11:55 PM
One thing i find funny about people using class and people complaing about how you are using it, 1 example is in Battlefield Bad Company, i would sometimes play recon and use the VSS gun, (the silent SMG) and people would complain because i wasn't sniping, and i would always have to say, "This class is could Recon, not Sniper, so i am allowed to equip a SMG and sneak around being all Recony. They wouldn't stop complaining. Idiots..
CutterJohn
2012-05-05, 12:08 AM
One thing i find funny about people using class and people complaing about how you are using it, 1 example is in Battlefield Bad Company, i would sometimes play recon and use the VSS gun, (the silent SMG) and people would complain because i wasn't sniping, and i would always have to say, "This class is could Recon, not Sniper, so i am allowed to equip a SMG and sneak around being all Recony. They wouldn't stop complaining. Idiots..
I did much the same. The sensorball was incredibly useful, especially considering BC2s 'spawn on any squad member' approach that made clearing out infestations difficult without knowing where the guy hiding was.
My biggest issue with the class in that game was the VSS was the only non sniper rifle they could unlock, and was definitely one of the later unlocks. They should have had 2 bolt action rifles, 2 semi auto rifles, and two battle rifle types.
That and the ridiculous looking wookie suit.
Minor
2012-05-05, 12:51 AM
In the 45 min gameplay, whoever was playing was able to jump from his mosquito or w/e from a short elevation.
Being unsure if he was using his dev shield or not, I can see a way of inserting infils using small aircraft.
Fly in, soften target, take damage, bail, cloak, snipe, infil...etc
PeteHMB
2012-05-05, 12:59 AM
The thrill of the hunt, regardless of how frustrating it could be, was worth far more than sheer number of kills as an infil. Scouting out an enemy AMS while avoiding grenades, being run over, rockets, and random fire, dying while hacking it, then coming back and succeeding in the hack made it all worthwhile. Watching confused newsuit enemies trying to get their equipment from a terminal that was no longer theirs, while your allies suddenly start spawning on top of/behind them, was priceless. Woe to the enemy that only brought a single AMS to spawn from...especially if the main zerg had moved on and only left a token defense to guard the hack. Countless times a surprise hack on a forgotten AMS could resecure a base.
Also, this:
http://img66.imageshack.us/img66/9435/c1gboomerspam.jpg
and this:
http://img66.imageshack.us/img66/2355/y6npsscreenshot0172j.jpg
and that "ohshitohshitohshit he saw me detonate! detonate! detonate!" feeling...
http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/1773/boomersnipers5to.png
Raka Maru
2012-05-05, 01:17 AM
Hehehehe, classic moments indeed.
Loved playing my inf. hope it will work in PS2, reallly do.
Rozonus
2012-05-05, 02:38 AM
I'm sorry if you already know this but it looks like the OP doesn't... Infils in PS2 can't shoot while cloaked. From what I can tell, we don't know if they'll have to turn the cloak off before can draw their weapon, or if the trigger won't work until they're uncloaked. Maybe it'll turn itself off when they fire, but that seems a bit too 'easy mode' for my liking.
Either way, I don't think that infils will be gimped by their new roles, far from it! For starters they have sniper rifles so they can deploy normally with their squad and give covering fire while the other troops move up. Once they are safe the infil can cloak and go do their normal sneaky work using a pistol and possibly explosives, they just don't get to keep their cloaking field up when shooting!
Who needs an ams or router when there is squad spawning?
Gone are the days of lone solo cloakers... in with cloaking teams that are insanely hard to uproot because you cant find and kill em all fast enough.
Figment
2012-05-05, 02:52 AM
Cloaking field going down is true for snipers who only get temp cloaking.
People who think adding sniping to cloaking is compensation for anything lost are pretty... Well... Not very 'in touch' with the infiltrating personality and more in touch with the assassin. I can not expect these people to understand what infiltration is about and needs. Possible these people think ps1 infil certification cost two points rather than 20 and two implants.
Rozonus
2012-05-05, 03:07 AM
It's just one of the many changes from PS1 to PS2. The infil just happens to have one of the biggest overall changes. I'm sure there will still be good skills to cert in and handy sidegrades. Other than that all you can do is suck it up and get used to the new gameplay style of the infiltrator. They can't keep everyone happy AND make a perfect game for everyone!
Figment
2012-05-05, 03:15 AM
Or they simply didn't think about these particular roles much as. Saying it is 'perfect' is fanboyism.
CutterJohn
2012-05-05, 03:20 AM
Or they simply didn't think about these particular roles much as. Saying it is 'perfect' is fanboyism.
The original PS1 devs didn't do much of that either, imo. Many common roles in the game were completely emergent.
It shall be interesting to see what players figure out that the devs never intended or planned for.
Rozonus
2012-05-05, 03:40 AM
Just so you know, I don't think the game is perfect, I was using it as an example of them trying to balance the game so that it is played by the most amount of people. They must think it is more appealing to have a recon class that has stealth over the original infiltrator.
I, for one, agree. Cloakers are useful but I hated that they can keep the cloak up while equipping weapons or tools. I prefer to see who's shooting at me so I can fight back on a more level playing field. I did like the cloaking in BF2142 though, or where the user has to equip a tool and keep their mouse button pressed to keep the cloaking field up.
The Kush
2012-05-05, 04:31 AM
A Galaxy is the most useless tool for an infil ever; nothing screams for more attention!
I would never even consider bringing one, stealing sure, bringing? Hell no.
Another thing that will be missed more on infil than other infantry is third person. Situational awareness is your only defense next to your cloak. I spent 90% of my time in third person to look behind and around me while hacking a console, vehicle or door. It is imperative for timing and aborting any actions. It is also the only way to safely navigate a minefield (walk through middle of diatance between mines), look for boobytraps, check if your movement is visible and of course if somebody is coming (if you move while they come near you, you get spotted and die, lag was bad enough for that).
You don't need to be cloaked to snipe, this and that shotgun they consider will only lead to close range headshot sniping and shotgun rapage. I'm afraid that is just going to annoy enemies and cries for nerfs, tbh. :/
That is exactly why third person shouldn't be allowed for any class. It gives you a view you normally wouldn't have
headcrab13
2012-05-05, 05:12 AM
That is exactly why third person shouldn't be allowed for any class. It gives you a view you normally wouldn't have
While I don't think you should be able to use 3rd person to look around the corner of a building and see an enemy approaching, I *do* think there needs to be a way to look over your shoulder while hacking.
If PS2's hacking remains similar to Planetside's, I hope we can "lock on" to the target terminal with the hacking tool and take an occasional look at the door behind us, without canceling the hack.
Rozonus
2012-05-05, 06:46 AM
You don't need to look over your shoulder, that's what squad mates are for! If you want to hack something by yourself, do it at your own risk.
On another note, SOE seem to have remembered the MMO part of MMOFPS a bit more this time round. I don't think there will be as many occasions where Infiltrators will be using lone-wolf tactics to enter buildings like they do in PS1. Why would I want to enter a base solo and play PS2 like a single player game when I can work as a team with my friends and support each other?! Hmm, guess I'm in the wrong thread here...
CutterJohn
2012-05-05, 07:53 AM
That is exactly why third person shouldn't be allowed for any class. It gives you a view you normally wouldn't have
How do you live without a neck?
Figment
2012-05-05, 09:17 AM
Rozonus, infiltration cannot be done in teams. But you clearly don't ever play as an infil. Your loss. Also, why don't you try playing infantry without a mouse? I hear you only need a keyboard...
Aircraft do not need third person as much as infiltrators and ground vehicles. Ground vehicles need to know if they hit a rock, why they are stuck, if their gunners are at the right angle and they cannot fly upside down, which air can while also being more agile to get new perspectives. Yet aircav gets 3rd person? They need it least!
Raka Maru
2012-05-05, 09:29 AM
Who needs an ams or router when there is squad spawning?
Gone are the days of lone solo cloakers... in with cloaking teams that are insanely hard to uproot because you cant find and kill em all fast enough.
If this is the reason the AMS is gone, to force teamwork, then it has it's flaws already.
AMS was vital for stealth FOB, until it became the only one left. Something to defend, something to protect and hide again when found. If I'm not in your squad, will I know you are a spawn point? Will the squad leader need bodyguards or have to hang back trying not to die for the good of the team? What use is squad spawning for the empire if I'm not in your squad? If the squad leader is a jerk, do I want to be in your squad? Will SL invite everyone around so they can spawn on him?
I don't think you can compare the AMS role to a spawn point squad member.
Figment
2012-05-05, 09:34 AM
Squad spawning is nothing like kaos describes. Hart droppods are not indoor battlefield style spawning.
Vancha
2012-05-05, 10:31 AM
You don't need to look over your shoulder, that's what squad mates are for! If you want to hack something by yourself, do it at your own risk.
On another note, SOE seem to have remembered the MMO part of MMOFPS a bit more this time round. I don't think there will be as many occasions where Infiltrators will be using lone-wolf tactics to enter buildings like they do in PS1. Why would I want to enter a base solo and play PS2 like a single player game when I can work as a team with my friends and support each other?! Hmm, guess I'm in the wrong thread here...
People need to stop saying this. It's so stupid.
Playing an MMO solo doesn't remotely resemble a single-player game experience and in fact, MMOs accommodate solo gameplay more than nearly any other multiplayer game, due to the sheer scale and unique gameplay dynamics.
Of all the games where having to hump the legs of your 9 bestest chums is forced upon you, having it in Planetside would make some of the least sense I've seen in a long time (actually I take that back, I've seen a lot of nonsense lately).
headcrab13
2012-05-05, 02:35 PM
You don't need to look over your shoulder, that's what squad mates are for! If you want to hack something by yourself, do it at your own risk.
Guess you've never played an Infiltrator. Or never been in a situation where your squad got killed and you were able to hack the terminal at the last second, with a group of enemies bearing down on your position.
Point is, sometimes you NEED to hack something by yourself, and I dislike the rigid concept that "I need to stare directly at this hack terminal for exactly 20 seconds without moving my eyes or body in order to be successful."
Red Ketchup
2012-05-05, 03:00 PM
Point is, sometimes you NEED to hack something by yourself, and I dislike the rigid concept that "I need to stare directly at this hack terminal for exactly 20 seconds without moving my eyes or body in order to be successful."
They could make hacking similar to sapping (http://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Sapper) in Team Fortress 2. The infiltrator would attach a vulnerable gadget to the terminal. If that gadget isn't removed or destroyed after "n" seconds, the terminal is hacked. During that time the infiltrator is free to do whatever it takes to defend his gadget.
Raka Maru
2012-05-05, 03:31 PM
They could make hacking similar to sapping (http://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Sapper) in Team Fortress 2. The infiltrator would attach a vulnerable gadget to the terminal. If that gadget isn't removed or destroyed after "n" seconds, the terminal is hacked. During that time the infiltrator is free to do whatever it takes to defend his gadget.
Now THIS idea I like!
laelgon
2012-05-05, 03:53 PM
I like that idea as well, as long as it is done right. It needs to take a few seconds to plant, maybe 3 or 4. That way people don't simply run by and instantly start hacking in the middle of a firefight, forcing people to constantly turn and shoot the device instead of being able to focus on attackers. Also, I would put some limit on how many of the hacking devices a player can carry, again to prevent spamming of the devices.
headcrab13
2012-05-05, 04:53 PM
They could make hacking similar to sapping (http://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Sapper) in Team Fortress 2. The infiltrator would attach a vulnerable gadget to the terminal. If that gadget isn't removed or destroyed after "n" seconds, the terminal is hacked. During that time the infiltrator is free to do whatever it takes to defend his gadget.
Interesting! I like this idea as well. It would add a new dynamic to hacking if a single bullet could destroy the gadget.
I don't mind the vulnerability of having to hack it yourself, if that's how they decide to implement it, but this automated hacking gadget might be an interesting sidegrade for the Infiltrator class.
Maybe the gadget would take longer to do the job but would free up the Inf to plant explosives or ambush incoming defenders?
Baneblade
2012-05-05, 05:26 PM
Two REKs:
One is the good ole Don't-heal-me-bro! REK.
The other is the one that you plant like a Boomer.
NCLynx
2012-05-05, 05:30 PM
Two REKs:
One is the good ole Don't-heal-me-bro! REK.
The other is the one that you plant like a Boomer.
The boomer-esque one would have to take longer though. Something like that, not saying that's the drawback that it HAS to be but there would have to be some benefit to actually hacking it yourself.
Figment
2012-05-05, 05:50 PM
Automation would remove the excitement and tension of being in a completely vulnerable position and would again put more focus on assassin and combative roles... :/
Just provide situational awareness, a stealthy approach and spawning spot to remain as unpredictable and flexible as possible. Don't make combat easier, please, vulnerability keeps you sharp and stimulates coming up with imaginative strategies. I already felt op in combat fighting people that do not check for infils. The challenge in ps1 was just right, prior to expert hacking and data corruption. I used a magscat pistoo, why should I get the direct opposite, a sniper rifle?
Raka Maru
2012-05-05, 07:00 PM
The thing is, I don't see the Devs ever giving 3rd person view to any soldiers for good reason...
The hacker device doesn't have to take away from the presence of the hacker, he should be in proximity enough just to be able to turn around and be aware while the counter ticks off.
Rozonus
2012-05-05, 07:32 PM
Guess you've never played an Infiltrator. Or never been in a situation where your squad got killed and you were able to hack the terminal at the last second, with a group of enemies bearing down on your position.
Of course I did, and probably everyone that played PS1 has been in that situation at one time. The point of hacking is that it always has the risk of being interrupted. If you can look around while you hack it's just as bad as using 3rd person to look round corners or waiting for enemy players to run up the stairs in a tower. I could just about tolerate 3rd person for vehicles but using it in a first person shooter is just wrong to me. Now that first person is the only view for infantry, everyone is on a level playing field. Sure, you can still wait round a corner to try and ambush enemies, but now they have a better chance to defend themselves because you'll see each other at the same time.
This is not PS1 with an HD texture pack, it's a different game with the gameplay designs aimed at pleasing the majority of today's FPS player base. I hate the idea of a tank driver controlling the turret but that's how it is in PS2 so I've accepted it rather than expecting them to change it. There's no point dwelling on it because we're just going to have to get used to the new game.
Rozonus
2012-05-05, 07:41 PM
I used a magscat pistol, why should I get the direct opposite, a sniper rifle?
In a few screenshots of PS2 I've seen Infiltrators using a pistol, which leads me to believe that they have slots for a primary weapon and a sidearm. You're thinking about a PS2 Infil as though it's a PS1 Infil, who knows what their equipment layout is like in PS2. It seems highly likely that you'll be able to use a pistol for close range defence as well as a sniper rifle (or replacement weapon) for longer range firefights.
Figment
2012-05-06, 04:24 AM
Rozonus, you just don't understand. Your posts are all about combat and I find it hard to believe you would qualify as a 'carreer-infil', like for instance MightyMouser, DrBuggs, me, JeffBeefJaw and Superschnecke, to name a few. Many of us are combat-avoiders, our tools for that are stripped away and that's just going to make cloakers more into combattants. OF COURSE I think of ps1 cloakerd, because the PS2 cloaker as it is now sounds like tf2 spy and not a Planetside cloaker. This game is still called Planetside so it's a Planetside style. New game or not, I will fight for a game I like and not just accept the bull argument that change should always be expected, needed and accepted. This is what feedback is for: give devs info on how we play, what we want and expect. If you have no strong will to get the optimum game and just get convinced by the bull argument that other fps players know better or exactly what they want and that devs know this too, then that's your problem. How about those fps players should accept OUR game for what it is? We have and now love it. Why would us, the experienced mmofps players, know less about what a mmofps player wants than complete and utter noobs!?
I don't want sniper rifles on cloakers as that is utterly unfair, or rather, I don't want cloaking on snipers: give them a gillie suit for all I care, but cloaking, no. Third person on a cloaker levels the playing field since you are way more vulnerable than other infantry and timing and spying is everything for survivability. No shields, but stealth. Level playing field is relative, if you rely on firepower and armour instead of stealth, timing and intel to survive, then it is not a level playing field if you take intel away.
Without ways to have situational awareness, cloakers are doomed far more than they are now. And an infil (not assassin) k/d is already pretty poor. Poor k/d is fine, just as long as you have the feeling of some control. Turning infil into complete guesswork is just dumb.
Snipefrag
2012-05-06, 05:21 AM
I'm somewhat concerned that the black ops side of the infiltrator will be lost, i hope they are giving this due attention.. We havent heard much about the infil besides they can sneak around and now are also snipers...
Sabot
2012-05-06, 06:16 AM
Nooooooo 3rd person for infantry. I'd rather you give infil gadgets to help with awareness. Like a small motion detector thingy you can throw up in the ceiling or something, so not to be seen right away. And if it's "tripped" you get alerts on your screen... like, if the motion sensor picks up movement, you get an indicator on where, sort of like how spotting works in BF3... at least for as long the enemy is in range of the sensor. Maybe even the option to detonate that shit could be specced through the skill tree to protect hacks... if they indeed still exist like in PS1.
In open terrain you hardly need that advantage, you can hide and stay away from enemies, if you get detected you're toast anyway, and in that case it was your own fault... not the lack of a 3rd person view.
biertrappist
2012-05-06, 08:54 AM
My favourite role.
Could solo for hours or be useful for team jobs.
The counter insurgent role was great fun.
Simply spying, laying up and passing on to trusted CR5's made a difference.
Surge a tower and enjoy half a dozen NC taking themselves out.
Lobbing plasma/nades from a tower at maximum distance and completely disrupting enemy attacks.
It offered so much and was an extremely satisfying way to play.
headcrab13
2012-05-06, 11:19 AM
If you can look around while you hack it's just as bad as using 3rd person to look round corners or waiting for enemy players to run up the stairs in a tower.
I disagree. I don't want a third person view, but I also don't want the unrealistic constraint of being forced to look straight ahead while hacking.
There's no way a real person in that situation would leave their back completely exposed and not watch for approaching threats, so why would you do it in a game?
All I'm asking for is a similar "head movement" system to the cockpit view, where you generally look ahead but also have the option of looking off to your side or over your shoulder for a second. I really don't see the point of arguing against something like that.
Squad spawning is nothing like kaos describes. Hart droppods are not indoor battlefield style spawning.
There is confirmed squad spawning when outside. If your a sneaky cloaker not hard to go outside :D
Baneblade
2012-05-06, 12:44 PM
What I want to know is why people think hacking shouldn't lock your attention on the task at hand... hacking isn't exactly the same as fapping.
headcrab13
2012-05-06, 01:04 PM
What I want to know is why people think hacking shouldn't lock your attention on the task at hand... hacking isn't exactly the same as fapping.
Because in Planetside, hacking consisted of holding a decryption tool up to the nearest terminal and letting it do it's thing. It didn't require any of the soldier's attention at all.
I really think it should be the same in PS2. Hacking that involves the user's attention (something akin to a minigame) can be fun initially but can really become painstaking after you've done it a hundred times. Imagine all the hacking you had to do in Fallout 3 or Deus Ex 3, and multiply it tenfold.
Very few infiltrators would find that enjoyable.
CutterJohn
2012-05-06, 01:09 PM
Imagine all the hacking you had to do in Fallout 3 or Deus Ex 3, and multiply it tenfold.
Very few infiltrators would find that enjoyable.
Oh god, this. I loathe lockpicking mini games.
Baneblade
2012-05-06, 01:09 PM
Very few infiltrators would find that enjoyable.
That is a good thing. There were too many infils in PS1. In PS2 an infil should be a playstyle that isn't as straightforward as grunting. Fallout hacking was fun actually, it made you think... it wasn't just a boring progress bar. And most importantly... gave you a chance to fail utterly. In PS1, the only chance you had to fail was if someone interrupted you.
Rozonus
2012-05-06, 01:42 PM
Ok I'll admit the idea about being able to move your head left or right while hacking is a good idea.
Mechzz
2012-05-06, 01:51 PM
Ok I'll admit the idea about being able to move your head left or right while hacking is a good idea.
omg. Reasoned debate on the interwebz. I knew there was a reason I like this website :):):)
I may use this as my signature, nice one Rozonus!
Figment
2012-05-06, 01:55 PM
There is confirmed squad spawning when outside. If your a sneaky cloaker not hard to go outside :D
...
Which is what I said: DROP PODS. Not bf style squad spawning, HART DROPS ON SQUAD LEADER. With a multi-minute timer(!).
Meaning your entire scenario of unrootable cloakers from a location is bull. Unless you are too blind to see drop pods fall, well outside the base.
Not to mention not useful for infils who work alone...
Figment
2012-05-06, 02:03 PM
Sobekeus, you want to annoy players with having to play the same minigame many times a day for years to come because you have a personal grudge with infils (those that hack terms)? The assassin type, you mean? The version that gets sniper rifles and perhaps even shotguns?
Please don't ever go and design games.
How can you possibly complain about people standing/crouching stationary and back turned for a small minute wanting some situational awareness? And yes, the bare minimum without 3rd person would be leaning around corners to look and head turning. With less I don't consider it fair to be far easier to kill.
headcrab13
2012-05-06, 02:27 PM
That is a good thing. There were too many infils in PS1. In PS2 an infil should be a playstyle that isn't as straightforward as grunting. Fallout hacking was fun actually, it made you think... it wasn't just a boring progress bar. And most importantly... gave you a chance to fail utterly. In PS1, the only chance you had to fail was if someone interrupted you.
There are other ways to balance the number of players choosing the Infiltrator class besides making hacking extremely annoying. It's asinine to intentionally make a class frustrating just so people won't pick it.
Think of the challenging part of Planetside's hacking as getting into position in the first place: approaching the base without being detected, moving silently between the tanks and mines in the courtyard, hacking the outer door and sneaking inside past roaming soldiers, creeping cautiously toward the hack room.
This is the kind of "minigame" I prefer when it comes to hacking, and it works exceedingly well in Planetside's setting.
Baneblade
2012-05-06, 02:33 PM
Hacking is not exclusive to infils.
Figment
2012-05-06, 02:53 PM
No but infils have to work much harder than you make it seem, getting into a room guarded by 10-50 if not more players (that may even be in the room with you) undetected is a lot more challenging than the part where you finish up. It takes a lot of lives, time, patience, observational and analytical skill, timing and experience to get into that position. You don't do infils justice.
I need to observe the reactions of players in the vicinity, to see if you have to abort, flee, defend yourself (if you even get a chance to).
Hacking empty rooms is not what you can reduce infil work too. It's incredibly stupid, ignorant, insulting and denigrating to do so.
You can't expect visible players to pull off something that hard, even when invisible, as easily. If at all. It is up to the defenders to protect against cloakers.
Besides, if you think there were too many infils, then you did not count the amount of HA, MAX and aircav players. Good infils were very rare. Don't punish us for your hatred and incapacity to fend off assassin type cloakers (For instance, wall plasma grenade throwers or those finishing you while wounded). As stated before, I'm talking about infils, not assassins.
headcrab13
2012-05-06, 03:09 PM
Hacking is not exclusive to infils.
The fact that it's not exclusive means your argument makes even less sense. If you're proposing to decrease the number of infils by making hacking a nuisance, then you'd be screwing over every other class that can hack, as well.
All I'm saying is that overall, infs are actually quite well balanced despite being so different from every other class, if not slightly underpowered these days.
Raka Maru
2012-05-06, 04:48 PM
Infils were good in PS1, still remains to be seen how they will be in PS2. Giving infils, assassin abilities via sniper rifles doesn't automatically increase the usefulness of the hacker role but just adds the assassin role.
We just went through the hacker mini game debate in another thread. Still don't like the idea, as it seems to only fit for a single player game where the mini game is the fun. I still think in planetside, it will distract from the game of getting TO the heavily guarded console and compromising it.
Baneblade
2012-05-06, 05:17 PM
No but infils have to work much harder than you make it seem, getting into a room guarded by 10-50 if not more players (that may even be in the room with you) undetected is a lot more challenging than the part where you finish up. It takes a lot of lives, time, patience, observational and analytical skill, timing and experience to get into that position. You don't do infils justice.
I need to observe the reactions of players in the vicinity, to see if you have to abort, flee, defend yourself (if you even get a chance to).
Hacking empty rooms is not what you can reduce infil work too. It's incredibly stupid, ignorant, insulting and denigrating to do so.
You can't expect visible players to pull off something that hard, even when invisible, as easily. If at all. It is up to the defenders to protect against cloakers.
Besides, if you think there were too many infils, then you did not count the amount of HA, MAX and aircav players. Good infils were very rare. Don't punish us for your hatred and incapacity to fend off assassin type cloakers (For instance, wall plasma grenade throwers or those finishing you while wounded). As stated before, I'm talking about infils, not assassins.
I don't hate infils... I spend a lot of time playing one. I hate infil scrubs who get in the way.
Baneblade
2012-05-06, 05:20 PM
The fact that it's not exclusive means your argument makes even less sense. If you're proposing to decrease the number of infils by making hacking a nuisance, then you'd be screwing over every other class that can hack, as well.
All I'm saying is that overall, infs are actually quite well balanced despite being so different from every other class, if not slightly underpowered these days.
My point is, hacking is mindless, it is just a bar filling in another bar. Yet people think you should be able to see behind you while doing it... if all hacking is is you holding one machine up to another... why not just make it a hacking boomer instead of the REK?
Raka Maru
2012-05-06, 05:58 PM
My point is, hacking is mindless, it is just a bar filling in another bar. Yet people think you should be able to see behind you while doing it... if all hacking is is you holding one machine up to another... why not just make it a hacking boomer instead of the REK?
Certing a REK means you know how to use the sophisticated hacking hardware.
Certing a MCG means you know how to use the sophisticated projectile distribution hardware.
Activating it at the appropriate time is now your concern. When I'm using my MCG, I am facing my enemy. When I use my REK, my back is to him most of the time.
It would actually be useful to have a boomer style deployable hacking device that can be attached to a terminal. Destroyable by opposing faction until it completes the hack. I don't think we need to push for a special 3rd person view, as this "Console Cracker" would take care of it.
Raka Maru
2012-05-06, 06:04 PM
I don't hate infils... I spend a lot of time playing one. I hate infil scrubs who get in the way.
Sobekeus, who gets to decide who the infil scrubs are?
And again with my MCG example, a player who continually fails in his role as MCGunner dies a lot and decides it is not his role or tries to improve his skill.
Figment
2012-05-06, 06:14 PM
My point is, hacking is mindless, it is just a bar filling in another bar. Yet people think you should be able to see behind you while doing it... if all hacking is is you holding one machine up to another... why not just make it a hacking boomer instead of the REK?
Because it puts you in a precarious position in and of its own, with a predictable location which (combined with the sound and visual) gives the enemy who normally can't see you a chance to thwart you.
Enemies need to able to thwart you.
If you would not need to be present you might be performing other actions, including offensive actions, including going to the generator and blowing it up, including prepping the spawns, including getting new ammo, including getting to safety, including setting up extra boomers or switching to a weapon, including relocating. All that from just exchanging the REK handheld hack with bar for if you put up an automation.
Please understand that gameplay design is about more than just the bar filling up.
In addition, from the perspective of the player hacking, it's about interaction between a player and the game where when succesful, the player has accomplished its goal. This includes perfoming and control an action. An automation does not provide the same experience. If you make it so a device does stuff for you, YOU do not perform the action. It makes it less personal and the satisfaction will be more like "oh it worked, nice" than "it worked! WOOT! I PULLED THAT OFF AGAINST THE ODDS AND GOT AWAY WITH IT!".
HUGE, EPIC difference. If you ever reseced a CC while half a feet away there are 3 Vanu or TR MAXes and 4-10 HA troops that all can hear and see you and you are personally at risk, then you'd know what the difference if some random device is there doing the job for you.
If you can not see this difference... You missed so SO much of the game. And tbh that I have to explain this to you makes me wonder if when as you say you play infil so much, if you're an assassin or saboteur, rather than an actual infiltrator. Whatever it is, your main job is definitely not the last. You may do it occasionally when the opportunity arises, but you clearly don't see it as a main reason to play as a cloaker or method to take back a base. If I go up against say DT, I know that I stand little chance beating them with my Sweeper Rexo or Agile. However, I know their style of defense got some weaknesses against infils. If I were to try assassin or saboteur against them, I'd fail after one or two kills. By avoiding detection - and I NEED intel for this - I stand a chance and I'm quite sure they enjoy the challenge of thwarting me reaching their CC just as much as I like the challenge of bypassing their security.
That's truly an 'art form' on both accounts.
The mini-game of watching the bar should not be about doing something with the console, but about keeping track of what happens around you, getting into your position and comparing it relative to the enemy, moving and timing your actions with the environment and context you are in. But watching the bar itself is not an objective in and on itself and it would only be a distraction if it required more input without actually being beneficial to the player. It would be an unneccessary extra and gimmicky input that - as said before - would just frustrate the majority of players.
For once I can tell you that the last thing a FPS and Stealth crowd would come to PlanetSide 2 for is mini-hacking games. If anything, it would cause complaints.
From the moment you start your approach on the base, all your efforts are about getting those 20-30 seconds alone with the CC and surviving to make sure that bar reaches the end (and THEN about maintaining it or doing whatever else you can do). To do that, you now and then have to NOT make the bar progress and reset the hack yourself.
That is a cat and mouse game between you and other players, rather than a PVE puzzle game.
HUGE difference.
Raka Maru
2012-05-06, 08:31 PM
Figment, I have experienced and agree with your concerns. Gotta ask tho, do you really think they are willing to give a single class 3rd person view?
If so, then great, but it can lead to the blatant abuse as before. But this is why I was willing to concede for a device so you can just plant it and can turn around and be aware while the status bar ticks down.
I definitely don't like the mini game idea at the console however. The game is getting to the console and hacking is the end, then escape.
Figment
2012-05-06, 08:49 PM
I never was against third person in the first place personally. I doubt they would, but they retained third person on aircraft for no reason that does not also apply to other things, so why not?
Not what I'm after per se if there is a good alternative. Situational awareness nerf in a mmofps like ps is a huge deal though. In PS2 with even more potential enemies in the vicinity, it is an even bigger deal.
Sabot
2012-05-06, 08:56 PM
@Figment, agreed.
No puzzles ffs... it's a fast paced mmofps, not a single player puzzle game. And the hacking was a major part of PS1... those times when you didn't know if you could finish it in time, if someone would walk by just to check or if you were clear... take a chance and you might pull it off, or you might die. And imo both puzzles and 3rd person view would ruin that experience of fooling the entire base force and pulling off the hack without being able to look around a corner thats actually behind you, WHILE you are hacking the CC... it's supposed to be nerve wrecking and it's supposed to be sort of a gamble whether you can pull it off or not. I'm all for gadgets and things to help you out with this... just not magical abilities to see all around you at all times.
Brusi
2012-05-06, 09:02 PM
I think the hacking system in Brink was pretty good for a FPS, much more interesting than than the sapper from TF2.
A mechanic that worked like Brink, allowing you to quickly deploy a very limited distance wireless hacking device on a terminal which then requires you to interact with your hand receiver (kind of like a young John Conner). With this system you can see in front of you while hacking and even move around a little bit, but if you switch back to your weapon the hack is lost.
Anyway, was under the impression that capturing a base now just worked the same way as in BF3? No special class necessary, no terminals, just more friendlys on the CAP than enemies?
Well, if there is still a place for infiltrators hacking specific types of objectives in bases, then how about something like this?
Suggestion: Team-based hacking (mini-game)
*Involves Multiple 'hack' terminals.
'Hack' the primary terminal (could be as simple as pressing 'g' or a 5+ second bar filling up, whatevs) to gain access to the current Encryption Sequence.
Encryption Sequence displays the order in which the other terminals must be accessed.
Encryption Sequence engines roatate to a new random sequence every ~5 mins.
Multiple infiltrators can coordinate to place themselves close to each terminal and using communication, complete the hack quite quickly.
Alternatively, Lone-Wolf infiltrators can attempt to complete the whole sequence, however it will be much harder as it involves them doing a lap of a base, undetected to complete the randomised sequence.
Captain1nsaneo
2012-05-07, 02:43 AM
http://i46.tinypic.com/im01ax.png
Alright, seems like no one remembers what the Devs actually said about infils so let's review:
Infils will get gadgets such as a camera that can be placed on walls.
There are different kinds of cloak, the ones that allow for sniper and the ones that allow for SMGs.
The cloakers with sniper rifles can't fire while cloaked and have only partial invisibility.
Hacking will work differently than PS1.
There is no wrong way to play a class.
I've played bloodthirsty cloaker, demolition cloaker, recon cloaker, assassin cloaker, hacking cloaker, and support cloaker and I love them all. It should never be about what the cloaker should do but what the cloaker could do. Pigeonholing a class into certain roles such as with or without a squad is just murder to an open world MMO style game. The only thing that should matter is if it's over powered to the point that there is no reasonable counter.
Does your hacking suggestion give the cloaker more or less options? Does it open or close possible gameplay? Classes have already restricted us, the goal should be to not add restrictions but to loosen them up to allow an even wider approach to the game.
...
Which is what I said: DROP PODS. Not bf style squad spawning, HART DROPS ON SQUAD LEADER. With a multi-minute timer(!).
Meaning your entire scenario of unrootable cloakers from a location is bull. Unless you are too blind to see drop pods fall, well outside the base.
Not to mention not useful for infils who work alone...
You need to relax especially when you are the misinformed one. Higby stated the drop pods were simply an UPGRADE to spawning and that it was merely in the testing phase. If you don't have an upgrade you don't have falling drop pods. This entire thread is also based almost completely on incomplete information and conjecture. Also I was pointing out the removal of the solo cloaker causing total havoc and a group of cloakers now being the real threat behind enemy lines. Good day sir.
Figment
2012-05-07, 09:52 AM
Ehr... how would a drop pod be an upgrade rather than a downgrade because it's more obvious? >___> I know he wants them to slam into the ground and all for the visualy exciting bit and even have that potentially damage enemies, but you ever harted in anywhere, you'd know that if you harted in anywhere people were watching, you were pretty much screwed.
Also Kaos, I don't think you understand that groups of cloakers are easier to root than individual cloakers, because they lead you to one another and are more prone to making mistakes, cannot all use the best hiding locations and are generally attracting a lot more attention than they want to.
Do you honestly think that groups of cloakers would not have existed in PlanetSide 1 if they would be so good as you try to make them sound?
Groups of cloakers do nothing more than padding someone elses killcount.
PeteHMB
2012-05-07, 09:53 AM
What do you guys think about giving infils only a 1-time use, single deployment personal spawn point? I'm thinking something along the lines of an ACE that an infil can use to spawn at if he stays within, say, 1 hex of where he dropped it. You'll spawn with your same infil loadout you died with just with ammo refilled or whatever. The spawn point ACE would be cloaked when deployed after an initial 1 second animation or whatever, vulnerable to being run over, shot, blown up, etc. Give it, say, 50 points or whatever so that a single grenade may not destroy it, but two grenades WILL. The low health of the spawn point means you'd have to hide it behind trees or something to avoid it being randomly run over, splash damage can easily kill it, etc. so that people aren't just dropping them everywhere. Make it so you can deploy it anywhere except on a vehicle though. Roof, tower, inside, outside, whatever. Thoughts?
Senyu
2012-05-07, 12:21 PM
I really do hope Infil does not become a cloak and dagger assasin primarily. Do I mind it being a role? No, but it shouldn't be the main and really only effective way to play the Infil. I would hope they would use creative support options for them.
One I can imagine is on a battlefield you would rely on LOS to shoot enemies. But Infil's would have a device to be able to highlight enemies for your allies on their HUD showing their locations. Such as an Infil is laser pointing at an enemy behind a rock so your tank with a module upgrade that allows this data to be received will see it as a highlighted box behind the rock. In which they proceed to shoot many explosives around the rock killing the soldier with AoE.
Actively providing real time intel on where enemies are located should be one of the support options Infils can do. And hopefully with a variety of engineer/defence/support options, their is a great amount of sabatoge for them as well >:)
Figment
2012-05-07, 12:34 PM
On the camera gadget: "hmmm..." Not really impressed with the concept.
As with anything that's visible, would it not attract unwanted attention? I mean, if I saw a camera I'd instantly put on Dark Light if I had it (and I would, like I see mere shimmers for 0.1 seconds in PS1 that reveal the location of cloakers to me).
Plus, how many cameras would you have? And how do you ensure proper placement? Would it be remote controlled?
Honestly, I see that more as a gimmick with the potential of ruining your day by simply using it, than a really good alternative.
On the personal spawnpoint: it would allow for a select few of the old approach route type spawn placement and then some exploitable situations, but it would not (IMO) be an ideal solution. It would not allow you to setup a fall back or secondary base to assault from with your team for instance. No, an AMS is still the most ideal unit.
It would help a lot more if you could only have third person while entering hacking/jacking modes. That still would not help in training while moving. For instance, while crouch moving in PS1, you can see just how visible you are, crouch tap moving is the least visible form, but without third person there's no way to tell in PS2 if you moved a bit too much and could have been spotted.
You certainly wouldn't notice people walk up on you from behind either and that's going to be murder, literally: either you'll move right in front of someone, or they'll bump into you because you did not get out of the way fast enough. No, I'm not happy at all with the removal of third person.
Another thing that could help at leas a bit is to lean around corners, basically popping your head out a bit to take a look. Not to fire a shot, mind you.
PeteHMB
2012-05-07, 02:55 PM
On the personal spawnpoint: it would allow for a select few of the old approach route type spawn placement and then some exploitable situations, but it would not (IMO) be an ideal solution. It would not allow you to setup a fall back or secondary base to assault from with your team for instance. No, an AMS is still the most ideal unit.
It's not meant to be ideal, just an alternative method for infils only. As I said, it would take up a sizeable portion of your very limited inventory, and infils aren't really meant to take part in full frontal assaults with their teams. I used an AMS for a very limited time as an infil and got tired of it quickly. When I'm sneaking around, I don't need 500 other people doing the proverbial "CHAAAAAAAAARGE!!!!!!!" battlecry from where I'm attempting to remain undetected. Does it help your team? Sure. Does it help YOU as an infil? Not really. A PERSONAL spawn point, for infil armor only (as in, even if you carried one while in Rexo you wouldn't be able to deploy it) would simply enable you to spawn somewhere sneaky. By placing them in the ACE category or whatever PS2's equivalent engineer item is, they can still be disabled by an EMP, blown up, etc. It would force you to think strategically with them, you could only lay out 1 at a time so you would have to use it sparingly, and would give you just that one extra option to stay closer to the fight.
WorldOfForms
2012-05-07, 04:07 PM
I'm a bit worried about infils in PS2. PS1's infils were an utterly unique approach to FPS gameplay. Nothing else felt like cloaking, in any other game. And yet it was beautifully balanced.
If cloakers can carry SMGs or shotguns, won't they need nerfing in other areas? And it seems like they'll be annoying to fight against.
That was the great thing about PS1's cloakers. I never felt annoyed fighting against them. In many games invisible enemies are just a huge pain to fight.
biertrappist
2012-05-07, 07:52 PM
I'm a bit worried about infils in PS2. PS1's infils were an utterly unique approach to FPS gameplay. Nothing else felt like cloaking, in any other game. And yet it was beautifully balanced.
If cloakers can carry SMGs or shotguns, won't they need nerfing in other areas? And it seems like they'll be annoying to fight against.
That was the great thing about PS1's cloakers. I never felt annoyed fighting against them. In many games invisible enemies are just a huge pain to fight.
100% agree. Absolutely.
That's the thing with PS2, we are hoping for the best of the old with some new features. Cloaking was special, certainly one hopes a cloaker is not just an invisible front line soldier. I am suspicious of PS2 not having the subtlety of PS1, of being a space BF3 yet, I'm pulling my cynicism back. The devs should have enough experience of PS1 to see what makes it tick.
Figment
2012-10-22, 08:48 PM
Bump. Shotguns.
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