Rethinking Vehicle Air Tranport

[Talek Krell]

The recent Galaxy/Lodestar discussions have gotten me thinking a bit about how the Lodestar was actually used in PS1 and why, and I think the subject would benefit from some discussion.

While the Lodestar had 2 roles it was almost never actually used for vehicle transport. A number of us have been clamoring for a vehicle transport module on the Gal, but there wouldn't be much point if it never saw use so I'd like to discuss why the Lody was used the way it was and what we might do to make air transport a more attractive option.

My thoughts

Problems with the original model:
1. Low impact: Dropping a single vehicle into a battle didn't generally have much of an effect. If you dropped your cargo just behind friendly lines then you'd slightly reduced the travel time of one vehicle, so you weren't exactly turning the tide of battle. A Lodestar could, hypothetically, have made repeated trips to reduce the average travel time from v-pad to combat zone, but that lead to problem 3. If you dropped a vehicle behind enemy lines then Fun could ensue, but the thing wasn't likely to last long. Dropping numerous vehicles at once could alleviate this but that lead to problem 2.
2. Inefficient: One pilot for each vehicle to be dropped was a requirement that became increasingly problematic if one wanted to move multiple vehicles. In practice this usually meant that air transport was only used to move single high impact vehicles like AMSes and the occasional Sunderer.
3. Logistical hurdles: Airlifting reinforcements is a great way to reinforce a front line, but doing so effectively requires coordination between the pilot and the potential air liftees to arrange for timely pickup at the v-pad or interception mid journey. PS1 did nothing to facilitate this, and I dare say it never actually occurred.

Potential solutions to the issues:
1&2. Allow multiple vehicles to be carried: Allowing a Galaxy with a vehicle carry mod (henceforth "Galstar" >.>) to drop a small combat group would make air transport a more efficient use of manpower and resources and also allow a single pilot to create a more significant impact on the battlefield. The ideal would probably be a hook system ala Supreme Commander: A Galstar would have X number of transport hooks and each vehicle would take up a certain number of them. Example: A Galstar with 8 hooks might carry 8 ATVs at 1 hook each, an MBT at 4 hooks with 2 Lightnings to back it up at 2 each, or a single Sundy at 6 hooks with 2 ATVs to scout for it.
3. Use the mission system: Allowing vehicle owners to set a mission on themselves requesting transport to a target area or pilots to set waypoints for pickup and dropoff would go a long way to facilitating transport as a viable full time support activity.

[DayOne]

I would very, very much like to see this sort of game play at some point in the future of planetside, it's one of the thing I love about it.

Sure there's scale, but without the vehicles and logistics needed to mount a successful attack PS2 will just be 2000 dudes in a field.

[Zekeen]

I like the idea of multiple vehicles, ONLY if they are LIGHT vehicles. Carrying heavy vehicles should call for a new HEAVY transport that is very expensive.

The idea of setting up missions is VERY VERY nice, I like the idea to set up a gathering area for drop troops. As a Galaxy specialist, I love this idea,

Now, why didn't you post this in the IDEA section? It's set up for this sort of post for a reason - so it doesn't get lost among the basic discussion.

[Retrograde]

I like the idea of choosing a load out option for the Galaxy on spawn (perhaps bought with certs):


A: 15 people / Max
B: 5 light vehicles (any combination)
C: 3 MBT's
D: 1 Sunderer

More you carry D>A, the slower you fly.

With this setup, gals could really turn that "forward base" concept into reality.

[Brusi]

Mini Warp Gates (Vehicle only Router):

Perhaps a device (or galaxy mod) that allows vehicles to pass through from a predeployed warp gate behind friendly lines, to the staging point where the device is deployed behind enemy lines.

Rather than allowing a whole bunch of vehicles to come through in quick succession, perhaps it could work on a cooldown timer (like the TF2 Teleporter Pad). Might be worth limiting how many vehicles it can warp though in total too. Having a limit based on each warp depleting nanites from the device in a similar way that Talek's hooks work.

i.e. one device allows you to port in 2 x MBT's or 1 x MBT' + 2LHT or 8 x ATV etc...

[Skepsiis]

I personaly love the concept of vehicle air transport for planetside 2 and was a fan of the lodestar from the first game (except the look).

I really like what was mentioned regarding utilising the mission system for transport requests or designating rally points for collection. I would expand this to include escort request missions for fighter escort, perhaps allow transport pilots to designate a pick up point, the intended route, and a destination, that potential passengers could see if they click on the pickup point on their map, and so that the pilot has some waypoints to follow. Maybe allow them to offer multiple options to vehicles who request theride from the pilot so they can pick their route and destination from multiple options setup by the pilot (east or west side of base for insersion, fast and dangerous route or slow and safe, etc).

This could also be something issued by a commander who sets a transport mission and then multiple pilots could ferry hardware from say, a base, through the valley and onto the frontline from a flanking position. And escort pilots could also sign ontk the mission and fly air patrol. This would be quite awesome on a large scale imo.

I would want to see an improvement over the system for loading a vehicle over the old lodestar because finding somewhere to land and then have the vehicle drive on was a pain. The skyhook from supreme commander was mentioned for carrying but i would love to see something like this for pickup. For those that dont know the transport in supreme commander kind of comes in close to the vehicles it is picking up and sort of tractor beams them up and secures them onto its side with mag locks or whatever. This would speed things up and allow for pickups without needing a massive zone for safe landing and combined with some sort of emergncy transport request could lead to some epic pickups in a hot zone or saving a friendly who is being chased, to save their expensive speced out vehicles.

Visually, i would love to see something like the command and conquer carry all (google it, it looks great) but with some kind of 4 point laser tractor beam system instead of a junkyard magnetic crane styled grabber.

[Alduron]

The recent Galaxy/Lodestar discussions have gotten me thinking a bit about how the Lodestar was actually used in PS1 and why, and I think the subject would benefit from some discussion.

While the Lodestar had 2 roles it was almost never actually used for vehicle transport. A number of us have been clamoring for a vehicle transport module on the Gal, but there wouldn't be much point if it never saw use so I'd like to discuss why the Lody was used the way it was and what we might do to make air transport a more attractive option.

My thoughts

Problems with the original model:
1. Low impact: Dropping a single vehicle into a battle didn't generally have much of an effect. If you dropped your cargo just behind friendly lines then you'd slightly reduced the travel time of one vehicle, so you weren't exactly turning the tide of battle. A Lodestar could, hypothetically, have made repeated trips to reduce the average travel time from v-pad to combat zone, but that lead to problem 3. If you dropped a vehicle behind enemy lines then Fun could ensue, but the thing wasn't likely to last long. Dropping numerous vehicles at once could alleviate this but that lead to problem 2.
2. Inefficient: One pilot for each vehicle to be dropped was a requirement that became increasingly problematic if one wanted to move multiple vehicles. In practice this usually meant that air transport was only used to move single high impact vehicles like AMSes and the occasional Sunderer.
3. Logistical hurdles: Airlifting reinforcements is a great way to reinforce a front line, but doing so effectively requires coordination between the pilot and the potential air liftees to arrange for timely pickup at the v-pad or interception mid journey. PS1 did nothing to facilitate this, and I dare say it never actually occurred.

Potential solutions to the issues:
1&2. Allow multiple vehicles to be carried: Allowing a Galaxy with a vehicle carry mod (henceforth "Galstar" >.>) to drop a small combat group would make air transport a more efficient use of manpower and resources and also allow a single pilot to create a more significant impact on the battlefield. The ideal would probably be a hook system ala Supreme Commander: A Galstar would have X number of transport hooks and each vehicle would take up a certain number of them. Example: A Galstar with 8 hooks might carry 8 ATVs at 1 hook each, an MBT at 4 hooks with 2 Lightnings to back it up at 2 each, or a single Sundy at 6 hooks with 2 ATVs to scout for it.
3. Use the mission system: Allowing vehicle owners to set a mission on themselves requesting transport to a target area or pilots to set waypoints for pickup and dropoff would go a long way to facilitating transport as a viable full time support activity.

I literally agree with every single character written.

[Galapogos]

I would love to see this implemented, however it would have to be done properly, otherwise vehicle transports would not see much use, and I think the devs really want to avoid putting stuff in the game that won't be used. For air transports to be efficient enough to actually be used often, their advantages on the battlefield would definitely have to out way their cost as well as the effort put into performing their role. So some essential requirements to achieve this would be:

-The ability to transport multiple vehicles, probably at least three MBT's like retrograde suggested.
-The ability to get vehicles to a destination considerably faster than most vehicles.
-The ability to pickup and deliver unmanned vehicles.
-Enough armor and defensive weapons to make a fully manned transport capable of defending itself from small amounts of enemy air and AA.

[Koenside]

3. Use the mission system: Allowing vehicle owners to set a mission on themselves requesting transport to a target area or pilots to set waypoints for pickup and dropoff would go a long way to facilitating transport as a viable full time support activity.

I like this. Incentive for the pilot with a direct reward like xp. Like a 'taxi' mission for pilots.

[Unforgiven]

i like the mission system one. but i think we are looking at it on too small of a scale, for example. have a group of 4 or 5 guys in transports with a mission up saying somthing like "support :vehicle transport" then somone can use the mission system to "hire" them in order for both teams to complete their objectives more efficiently than on their own.

[Retrograde]

...use the mission system to "hire" them in order for both teams to complete their objectives...

I agree with all the above, especially this.

There should be a system that allows for multi-vehicle transport (given some restrictions), and a means to "request" a pick up / drop off.



IMHO, the way it's designed now, people will just two man (pilot and tail gunner) a gal spawn into position (like an ams+1), then zerg the base. Everyone else loads a single person vehicle to get to the new target. If you die, spawn @ galaxy.

Two person team takes turns loading galaxies to effectively cut the spawn timer in half. E.g. one gal on the ground, one inbound at all times.

Galaxy is just the new ams. Pretty weak if you ask me.

[Vamp Hunter]

These seem like good ideas, carrying just one vehicle seems inefficient and ineffective so I agree there should be a way to carry more.

Also a mission for asking for transport is a great idea. It rewards the driver/pilot with XP for helping and gets the passenger where they want to go quicker then them spamming chat.

[laelgon]

I really like the idea of a mission system for transport as well. I don't remember, but is there any kind of xp reward confirmed for missions? If so, there'd definitely need to be something in place to prevent people from abusing transport missions to farm xp.

[Gonefshn]

I don't really prefer the idea of transporting vehicles at all. To have a Galaxy carry 3 MBTs seems excessive and only 1 is pointless. I don't think it's necessary to have vehicle air lift in the game but it wouldn't bother me if it was there for people who want it. Just the idea of more than 1 vehicle being carried by the galaxy, atleast MBTs I don't like.

[Sabot]

I will only agree if you call it the Lodeaxy!

seriosuly though... agreed, signed and stamped.

[CutterJohn]

Any lodestar equivalent would have to be able to carry multiple tanks if it was to have any value at all. PS1 proved that 1 at a time transport was for the most part of little practical value, except for ANT/AMS transport. The AMS transport is covered, and mechanic changes rendered the ANT unnecessary, so there is little purpose left for them.

The problem with hauling multiple tanks would be the thing would have to be pretty dang large.

Unless.. maybe.. I think i have an idea for a cool concept. I shall play around with it a bit.

[Sabot]

Shrink rays!!!! Haven't we already discussed them?

[Timealude]

I don't really prefer the idea of transporting vehicles at all. To have a Galaxy carry 3 MBTs seems excessive and only 1 is pointless. I don't think it's necessary to have vehicle air lift in the game but it wouldn't bother me if it was there for people who want it. Just the idea of more than 1 vehicle being carried by the galaxy, atleast MBTs I don't like.

thats why people were saying carrying light vehicles only, besides the main battle tanks are huge in planetside 2. logically they couldnt fit multiples in them anyways because no galaxy on auraxis would be able to hold them. i personally like the multi vehicles idea, it made the lody pointless to have almost just having one. Also make it so you cant put sundies in it, or balance it so that you lose the troop transport in order to hold multi vehicles.

[Kipper]

I like the idea - but the more MBTs a single galaxy can carry, the less galaxies you would need.

I'm thinking its more equivalent to a heavy lift helicopter, which is only going to really be able to move one piece of heavy armour at a time.

Sure, you can get the huge planes that can lift three or four - but they require infastructure (long runways) and aren't really used to insert near the front line, just to take stuff to the 'main' bases. In Planetside, since all territory is up for grabs, I'd expect that 'near the front line' becomes 'on or behind' the front line, and you can just construct a vehicle at the main bases anyway.

I do think there is something to be said for arranging a 3 or 4 galaxy drop, say 3 tanks and 15 men, that would be enough to have an effect and would look cool too :)

[Toppopia]

As long as you can hop in the tank and watch as you fly through the air, that adds an extra 2 or more people depending on the vehicle.

[Mechzz]

As long as you can hop in the tank and watch as you fly through the air, that adds an extra 2 or more people depending on the vehicle.

Watch?

Hell, if I'm swinging in my magrider under a skycrane, I'll be giving those feckin' TR mossie pilots a good dose of my PPA or uber-AA cannon using my seat-switch button :groovy::groovy::groovy:

A magrider would be the best AA gun in the game, swinging from a Gal.

[Kipper]

A magrider would be the best AA gun in the game, swinging from a Gal.

Which is exactly why vehicles in transit should need to be fully powered down :)

[Mechzz]

Which is exactly why vehicles in transit should need to be fully powered down :)

Spoilsport!

And allowing MBT's to fire while swinging from a Gal would also solve the problem you pose in the Sunderer thread about the lack of an air vehicle in the suppressive fire role.

Imagine a few vanny's getting flown in circles above your base - it'd be a brave soldier to venture into that cy! (jk) :)

[PeteHMB]

I literally agree with every single character written.

+1. The 2 MBTs / 4 lightnings / etc setup is exactly what I had in mind. Looking at pics though, I don't see why Sunderers should take up more slots than an MBT. I think 2 Sunderers would fit fine size-wise, but I could also then see the loadout being exploited to double the carrying capacity of personnel in that Gal. Still, if that's how someone wanted to do things, I think it'd be awesome to take a Galaxy + 2 sunderers full of people into battle, drop the Sundies off to flank around the back of a tower while the Galaxy crew assaults the front...I mean, that's a full platoon right there. You'd be a big fat target, though still faster than either Sunderer alone, and would have to coordinate with other air crews for defense, but it would lead to some interesting tactics!

[Fenrys]

I really like all your ideas.

[laelgon]

To get around the size problem for it carrying multiple vehicles, have it basically act as a nanite transport. When you pull it, you can set the vehicles you want to spawn, 2 mbts, 4 light, etc. Then when you land, it acts like a vehicle pad for those specific vehicles. I imagine you'd need passenger slots and some way of locking the spawned vehicles to specific people, but I think this kind of solves the problem of how stupidly huge an aircraft would need to be to carry two main tanks.

[Figment]

To get around the size problem for it carrying multiple vehicles, have it basically act as a nanite transport. When you pull it, you can set the vehicles you want to spawn, 2 mbts, 4 light, etc. Then when you land, it acts like a vehicle pad for those specific vehicles. I imagine you'd need passenger slots and some way of locking the spawned vehicles to specific people, but I think this kind of solves the problem of how stupidly huge an aircraft would need to be to carry two main tanks.

Nonsense.

http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk49/digdug14/DuctTape.jpg

[Xyntech]

Just do something kind of like this:

Something like this?

http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb180/HanSime/Planetside%20Vehicle%20Concepts/PS2_Galaxy_Skyscrane.jpg
http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb180/HanSime/Planetside%20Vehicle%20Concepts/PS2_Galaxy_Skyscrane.jpg

but with the tail being able to telescope out so it can carry more shit. It would still fit on the same footprint as the regular Galaxy, so it would be able to spawn at the same pads, but could have enough room for 2 MBTs. Just have the tanks park sideways under it to maximize space efficiency.

I would tend to go with the 2 MBT 1 Sunderer thing myself. Galaxies already can only carry 12 passengers, so having this variant able to carry twice as many AND in an armed and heavily armored vehicles would seem imbalanced. Even if the Lodestar Galaxy carrying 2 Sunderers was slower than the regular Galaxy, the regular Galaxy would still probably become underused. I guess removing the spawn feature from the Lodestar Galaxy may be enough to even it up, but it still seems off.

I think just having the advantage of dropping in with an armed and armored vehicle would be enough of an advantage. I vote 1 Sunderer.

1 Sunderer
2 MBT's
4 Lightnings
10 ATV's (in 2 rows of five)

[Sabot]

Yeah.. one sunderer is enough... 2 fully loaded sundys on 1 gal is a bit OP tbh. Sundys aren't exactly easy to blow up, and remember they are currently repair points, which means they could in theory be dropped and then repair eachother, and at the same time deploy a lot of infantry... and then the gal acts as a spawn point for said infantry. Very, very powerful combo :p

[Skepsiis]

I would rather a galaxy remains focused as a troop transport with all the customisation options catering to different varients on that role.

A vehicle transport should be seperated out into a different vehicle so that it can be more specialised in that regard and has a few cool specific unlockables without breaking the balance or function of what a galaxy does.

[Kipper]

1 Sunderer
2 MBT's
4 Lightnings
10 ATV's (in 2 rows of five)

8 ATVs, and a Galstar can't spawn troops (maybe it can still deploy and use turrets?), and I'm in.

That way, get a Galaxy with troops&spawn and a Galstar with vehicles only and you have a special forces setup right there.

[Talek Krell]

Now, why didn't you post this in the IDEA section? It's set up for this sort of post for a reason - so it doesn't get lost among the basic discussion.I wanted to generate some discussion and refine the idea a bit, and the idea forum seems to generate less traffic for that sort of thing. I think a lot of people don't check it. We'll still get this put up in there later though.

The problem with hauling multiple tanks would be the thing would have to be pretty dang large.
Unless.. maybe.. I think i have an idea for a cool concept. I shall play around with it a bit.That did occur to me, but I had no easy fix for it and put it on the back burner. Xyntech's suggestion of having the vehicle telescope out after leaving the pad might work. I'm looking forward to seeing what you come up with. :D


I'm loving your developments of the mission system idea. It will be awesome if they apply it that way.

Looking at pics though, I don't see why Sunderers should take up more slots than an MBT.It's a balance issue, as you suspected. In addition to what other people have pointed out I'd also add that last I knew the Sundy still has its EMP blast. You could already do some crazy stuff just dropping one of those in PS1. Of course the balance is very subject to discussion, I'm hardly an authority on the vehicle balance of PS2.

[Xyntech]

8 ATVs, and a Galstar can't spawn troops (maybe it can still deploy and use turrets?), and I'm in.

That way, get a Galaxy with troops&spawn and a Galstar with vehicles only and you have a special forces setup right there.

I think 10 would still be balanced, but 8 or 10 would be fine.

I'm just thinking about how ATV's are already rapid transport on their own, and may have difficulty bringing their firepower to bear right after hot dropping in. It would still be 2 less than the 12 of a normal Gal drop and 3 less than a Sunderer (including the driver).

I totally agree about a Lodestar Galaxy not being a spawn point. The more I think about it, normal Galaxies being spawn points would be more than enough to keep them useful, even just for normal Gal drops. I've mentioned in another thread my thoughts about how spawning at a Galaxy that's in a safe place and then loading into it for a hot drop may end up being more valuable than just parking a Galaxy near a fight and using it as an AMS.

[Talek Krell]

I concur with the sentiment of the Galstar not keeping the troop spawn ability.

In my mind the "Galstar" is a completely different vehicle than the Galaxy, and designed for a wholly different purpose. Even visually they may have only a passing similarity.

Building the Galstar off the same chassis and cert tree as the Gal is just a matter of convenience to allow air support pilots more adaptability in their role and give the game's Artists a framework to start from.

[Kipper]

I know ATVs are fast anyway, but my thinking was more shock troops. Galstar would have to land or hover stationary and below a certain height to drop MBTs and Sunderers, but IMO the ATVs should be hot droppable higher and faster.

The idea being they go in to create confusion and mayhem while the main assault happens elsewhere or from a different direction.

[Xyntech]

Does anybody else get a weird boner at the thought of how wrong it would be to drop a tank on top of the roof of one of those new bridges and see whether it manages to land upside down or right side up?

It could be a way to make those hard decisions.

"What should we do? Plan A or B?" "I don't know, flip a tank."

[Kipper]

I'm imagining tanks on top of the bio-domes and those high up tech plant buildings. This is what makes you realise that Galstar isn't going to happen...

[Stew]

I think thats having a transport vehicules that can DROP vehicules and amunition and resuply etc.. could be damned cool as well !

it could make this role a lots of fun and engaging !

[Sabot]

I think thats having a transport vehicules that can DROP vehicules and amunition and resuply etc.. could be damned cool as well !

it could make this role a lots of fun and engaging !

I can get behind this... I remember Higby talking about terrain and how it sometimes favor certain playstyles (big vehicle battles, infantry etc). Some hexes in the game might not be an ideal place for a sundy... narrow paths, cliffsides and so on, which makes setting up a rearm station in a good spot hard. If a Gal pilot could spec to be able to drop a crate from the air which rearms and possibly heals infantry it might be a viable option on those hexes, But also if there's a HD on the roof of an installation... extra support for the troops that's otherwise doomed if they attract too much attention.

[Marinealver]

What are you talking about. Loadstars were used for allot of things. Sure they were primary a vehicle transport but mostly a Mobile Vehicle Resupply Station. However the vehicle transport did become handy at times, such as moving say another tank that got destroyed while replacing a damaged loadstar. Also AMS drops could be verry sucessful.

[RSphil]

air transport should be realistic imo. i never played ps1 so not sure on sizes of vehicles ect. but id say 1-2 tank internal and 1 underslung if size allows.

smaller stuff like the quads ya could fit maybe 4-6, ect ect.

if you have a few aircraft to transport and a few drivers for the vehicles then a small wave of aircraft maybe with air support could make a difference to a battle.

but i havent played ps1 and im new so i dont know lol.
just going off military tactics of today and future.

[Galapogos]

I'm imagining tanks on top of the bio-domes and those high up tech plant buildings. This is what makes you realise that Galstar isn't going to happen...

If they force the pilot to land (or have the vehicle a few feet from the ground if its under slung), then they could just disable dropping off vehicles in certain points, like how vehicles deconstruct if you land/ park them in the wrong spot in ps1, except the drop function would simply be disabled at those designated points.

[Xyntech]

Am I the only one who wants tanks on top of biodomes? ;)

[Talek Krell]

I'm imagining tanks on top of the bio-domes and those high up tech plant buildings. This is what makes you realise that Galstar isn't going to happen...They could just implement the auto deconstruct function again. It generally kept vehicles off of rooftops in the first game, why not the second?

[Neurotoxin]

Transport Galaxy modded with crazy heavy engines and a few gunner seats, and a platform that it tows beneath it. The galaxy hovers at 20-30 meters off the ground, and the platform opens its sides up for vehicles to drive on.

The platform is kept level by a stabilizing system, and vehicles can fire over the lip of the platform. Each vehicle slows the Transport Galaxy by an amount relative to the increased weight, though the platform will fill up before there is enough weight to prevent more than 50% speed reduction.

The other feature is that the sides of the platform can be lowered at any time, allowing the vehicles to drive off onto the ground below. Inertial dampeners are applied when this is done, which prevents falling damage, but also reduces the amount of crushing damage that the vehicle inflicts.

[PeteHMB]

I think thats having a transport vehicules that can DROP vehicules and amunition and resuply etc.. could be damned cool as well !

it could make this role a lots of fun and engaging !

I was thinking along the lines of the bigass planes and bombers in BF1942 that you could spawn out of in mid-flight. Limit the number of people spawning to the number of seats available, and probably no MAX spawning, but have an option to spawn in a galaxy that's not necessarily on the ground. Limiting the people to the seats available would prevent mass hot drops unless you had multiple gals, in which case it's the defending team's failure for not shooting down some big fat targets. Of course, we still don't know exactly how hot-dropping is going to work, so that'll play a part in this, but...I think it'd be cool. Infantry only, no MAXs, no vehicles. You get to pick your loadout as soon as you spawn and that's it.